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D SQDRN 97th IOTC
6th Aug 2011, 07:20
so S&P had the balls to do it.

could be another "interesting" week for the stock markets next week.

KAG
6th Aug 2011, 07:31
It is a catastrophe.
Those rating agencies practice selfulfilling prophecy and feed lazy investors.

That's enough.

That the last thing a country with huge debt needs: a huge interest rate to repay.

I am sick of those agencies, they kept lowering the greece/irland rating this year and the last one. Each time they lower the rating, the debt automatically increase, the pay back is even more difficult, so they lower again the rating and the cycle continues...

I already warned you a few weeks ago about the madness of this system:

ENOUGH!


For all western countries:

1-Increase taxes to invest in solid INDUSTRY and research
2-lower expenses
3-increase the repay pace
4-get rid of those 3 agencies and stop playing with the citizen taxes (debt are taxes, lowering a rating means asking more money to the tax payers FOR NO REASON!)


Call my 4 points plan all the names you want, but if you don't follow it a catastrophe is waiting to happen to the western world.

IB4138
6th Aug 2011, 07:31
I'd make S & P, Moody's and all the activities of other rating agencies illegal, worldwide.

Close the buggas down!

They missed forecasting the Credit Crunch by a country mile and now are going OTT and damaging world economies by their current activities and are fuelling the present crisis.

Simply a tool of the banks and speculators.

Slasher
6th Aug 2011, 08:07
I am sick of those agencies....

I'd make S & P, Moody's and all the other rating agencies illegal, worldwide.

Yep KAG and IB41 - by all means just go out and shoot the
messenger. That will fix everything up like those pesky US
and Euro debts won't it. :hmm:

Didn't hear a squeak from you both when Ireland got a ratings
clanger - so why you all upset now? Oh I know....the US just
copped an agency right hook itself! Hurts doesn't it. And so it
should.

Id've downgraded the US back in early March, but that's me.

Ratings in the end don't matter a damn - it is the underlying
fiscal policy and the lack of real concrete solutions that cause
all these downgrades. What S&P did confirmed what everyone
has known for the last 4 bloody months

The only real surprise is that S&P took so damn long to do it.

IB4138
6th Aug 2011, 08:10
They aren't messengers.....just hangers on, trying ...and making a fast million or so bucks by making the present crisis worse with every word they issue.

Who gave these clowns the misguided credibility they appear to enjoy in the first place?

Slasher
6th Aug 2011, 08:20
Call my 4 points plan all the names you want,...

Nah I wouldn't call it names Kaggie boy, I'm just having a wee
laugh at it because it looks like something that that CNBC's
Jim Cramer would've suggested. If you look elsewhere in this
thread you'll see I wrote a plan of sorts that would help start
a US recovery that even a blind Progressive could understand.

Richard Taylor
6th Aug 2011, 08:21
Sorry, I agree with the others. Just how did world economies become hostage to the stock market spivs & these credit rating agencies??

They have far too much of an influence in what happens. Curb them - or shut them down.

Keef
6th Aug 2011, 08:24
The problem is - I think - that the US politicians making the wacky decisions don't understand economics in the first place. They just want to be re-elected so "free beer for all" policies are the way to go.

Krystal n chips
6th Aug 2011, 08:30
To relax the minds of American readers, I think I can safely say the original owners will not be serving a repossession order on you....we have enough problems of our own....:E

However....should little chunks of the USA come up for auction, I would be interested in bidding for an area that is:

Not too far from the coast

Warm..day and night

As free as possible from some of the natural inhabitants..that bite humans

Is liberal in political terms,

Has a good area of decent ground

Not too far from mountains

Has a good overall infrastructure

And... with all the above in mind as they have a relevance to the last bit....good thermal activity for....
gliding....

At this stage, whilst suggestions are welcome of course, this should be regarded more as a provisional enquiry rather than an expression of interest...just to avoid any angst and confusion you understand....:cool:

Slasher
6th Aug 2011, 08:32
Downgrade of Greece reaction - shame but they had it coming to 'em.
Downgrade of Portugal reaction - shame....
Downgrade of Ireland reaction - such a real shame.
Downgrade of Spain reaction - shame....but the writing was on the wall.

Downgrade of US reaction - what a pack of arseholes! Who are these fcuking rating agencies anyway!!

Slasher
6th Aug 2011, 08:34
K&C you're looking at Miami. Dunno about the mountains bit though.

cavortingcheetah
6th Aug 2011, 08:38
S&P is the fief of a man called David Beer. You won't find much about him on the internet. What may yet bring the ratings agencies down is if they or their employees have benefited from investments from the inside, based upon the knowledge that the downgrade was coming.

Slasher
6th Aug 2011, 08:42
Cheetah is doesn't matter if Beer (thought it was Bier) makes
a crapload or not - everyone knew a downgrading was on the
cards, with or without an official drop, and have profited from
it.

tony draper
6th Aug 2011, 08:45
We as a nation with a triple A+rating might be persuaded to take you back under our wing again, but then there is the question of back taxes due since 1776.:rolleyes:
Stop worrying, when everybody's arse is hanging out the back of their kecks he with the biggest arse is king.
:uhoh:

KAG
6th Aug 2011, 08:59
Slasher:Yep KAG and IB41 - by all means just go out and shoot the
messenger. That will fix everything up like those pesky US
and Euro debts won't it.

Didn't hear a squeak from you both when Ireland got a ratings
clanger - so why you all upset now? Oh I know....the US just
copped an agency right hook itself! Hurts doesn't it. And so it
should.

Please read bellow, from me, post #321 (infra this very thread):2-With the AAA rating (and with the interest rate that comes along) from the american rating agencies it wouldn't be a problem for Irland (or even Spain, Portugal, or Greece!) to reimbourse their debt, especially with the huge help they received from the IMF/EU.http://www.pprune.org/6580974-post321.html


#323: from me:Irland or Spain have much less debts than UK or the US, but is stifled by the interest rate, stifled by the rating agencies. Shame on them. This is a self fulfilling prophecy, don't you honestly see?http://www.pprune.org/6581053-post323.html






ME:Call my 4 points plan all the names you want,...
YOU:Nah I wouldn't call it names Kaggie boy, I'm just having a wee
laugh at it because it looks like something that that CNBC's
Jim Cramer would've suggested. If you look elsewhere in this
thread you'll see I wrote a plan of sorts that would help start
a US recovery that even a blind Progressive could understand.
Alright Slashie girl, CNBC? I am flattered.

Krystal n chips
6th Aug 2011, 09:00
Slasher, ok, but what about the alligators for field landings....however...I am prepared to travel for some decent mountain wave.....;)

IB4138
6th Aug 2011, 09:02
Slasher

I've been calling for the activities of these rating agencies to be curbed for years.

When you take look at the individuals career histories, who make up the boards/executives of the actual parent companies who own these agencies, then you have to seriously doubt their impartiality in their companies' rating opinions. Also take a look at businesses that the ultimate parent companies also own and ask yourself again, are these ratings totally unbiased? The activities of some of the individuals do not bare scrutiny, with hints of insider trading and corporate blackmail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_W._McDaniel_Jr.
Moody's - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moody%27s)
Standard & Poor's - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_%26_Poor%27s)
McGraw-Hill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGraw-Hill)

Then you will understand why I have been calling "foul" as to their activities and querying why their ratings are given any relevance whatsoever.

Load Toad
6th Aug 2011, 09:08
How on earth do we trust or bother to comment on what the Rating Agencies say or do when they are the phuqwits that gave AAA ratings to Sub Prime mortgage backed securities?

Lower than whale shit and twice as smelly.

KAG
6th Aug 2011, 09:29
The experts say this new rating just increased by $140 BILLIONS the american debt. Now explain me in what they are a messenger.

The same ones are trying to put down Spain and Italy, Spain that has the lower public AND private debt level among all western countries, but find itself in danger because of those agencies and investors taking out from her all possibility to invest in its industry and research (by increasing its debt, or interest to be accurate, that are adding to the initial debt). A messenger? C'MON!

bnt
6th Aug 2011, 10:07
One comment that caught my eye: Robert Reich: Why S&P Has No Business Downgrading the U.S. (http://robertreich.org/post/8542550924)

I think he's wrong, though. All his counter-arguments are based on the past, on the fact that no interest payments have been missed. The past is no guide to the future, as any investment broker will tell you. Ratings are about the future, though: S&P thinks that the USA will have trouble meeting its obligations.

Metro man
6th Aug 2011, 10:08
With the state of the US government finances they couldn't really do much else besides downgrade could they ?

14 trillion dollars in the hole, borrowing 40cents out of every dollar they spend, massive unfunded liabilities with social security and medicare, and the ratings agencies are supposed to pretend everything's rosey.:confused:

bnt
6th Aug 2011, 10:19
If you want to know exactly what S&P were thinking, they're happy to tell you in excruciating detail (http://www.standardandpoors.com/servlet/BlobServer?blobheadername3=MDT-Type&blobcol=urldata&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobheadervalue2=inline%3B+filename%3DUS_Downgraded_AA%2B.pd f&blobheadername2=Content-Disposition&blobheadervalue1=application%2Fpdf&blobkey=id&blobheadername1=content-type&blobwhere=1243942957443&blobheadervalue3=UTF-8) ...

Slasher
6th Aug 2011, 10:19
S&P thinks that the USA will have trouble meeting its obligations.

So do hundreds of millions of people who already knew that fact several months ago.

If you want to know exactly what S&P were thinking, they're happy to tell you in excruciating detail ...

Thanks for that link bnt - been searching all day. :ok:

rh200
6th Aug 2011, 10:23
I think people should stop winging and try fixing the underlying problem. The fact is most western countries are living beyond their means. Hell the only reason we are any good is we have stuff all people and [email protected] load of minerals the chinese want, otherwise we'd be stuffed. Countries have to live within their means, no different to a person.

ATNotts
6th Aug 2011, 10:32
Two things come to mind.

First, when the rating agencies downgraded Greece, Ireland, Portugal they did it during the trading day. For the US they waitied until after the markets were closed for the weekend. Fishy eh?

Second, if rating of sovereign debt is so important why is it left to three privately owned businesses? Surely the IMF should the be responsible for assessing a nation's creditworthyness not a another bunch of city traders on exhorbitant salaries, and even more exhorbitant bonuses!

KAG
6th Aug 2011, 10:45
Second, if rating of sovereign debt is so important why is it left to three privately owned businesses? Surely the IMF should the be responsible for assessing a nation's creditworthyness not a another bunch of city traders on exhorbitant salaries, and even more exhorbitant bonuses!


So true!

How those 3 private agencies became step by step the real world leader is an incredible stupid story.

Desert Dingo
6th Aug 2011, 11:03
Problem: A country has too much debt.
Solution: Borrow more money and increase the debt.
Yeah. That will fix it.

tony draper
6th Aug 2011, 11:10
Nero had a good idea,a surefire way of solving his cashflow problems,he just confiscated all private wealth.
:)

radeng
6th Aug 2011, 11:16
Doidn't get him too far in the long run, though.

tony draper
6th Aug 2011, 11:46
Well a short but merry life does have its advantages.
:rolleyes:

KAG
6th Aug 2011, 12:00
Problem: A country has too much debt.
Solution: Borrow more money and increase the debt.Yeah. That will fix it.


A faster way to increase the debt of a country is lowering its rating. ;)

bnt
6th Aug 2011, 12:15
I wonder if there are going to be any margin calls on the US debt after this? That would really set the cat among the pigeons.

(A margin call is what you call a lender asking for more money back, on top of the agreed payments. It would be like a bank looking at your house mortgage and saying "we think you owe too much, we want you to give us an extra chunk of change to reduce your debt". I don't think your mortgage agreement would allow that, but then you are paying a much higher interest rate than the US Govt. ...

Ancient Observer
6th Aug 2011, 12:25
It would appear that Mrs Thatcher is available to help the USA with some consultancy advice. Just like she told Mr Gorbachov in L'Amico's restaurant in Westminster, (after she's had some gin and tonics in the ICI building nearby), you simply cannot beat the markets.

So, spend less and earn more.

Simples

racedo
6th Aug 2011, 12:27
I think I can safely say the original owners will not be serving a repossession order on you....we have enough problems of our own....http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

Dunno I though the Native Americans were happy with some of their lots and casinos.

racedo
6th Aug 2011, 12:34
Western Capitalism for last 65 years based on making people wealthier generation by generation and happy to spend spend spend on doing so as it got people re elected.

Now the wolf is at the door and looking at what more can you give to people who have it all and then refuse to accept they need to pay it back.

The Military Industrial Complex bankrupted the USSR, now its doing the same to the US.

Japan did well because it couldn't spend on its military so had to focus on Civilian business first, Germany the same where as the US tried to focus on both but military was more lucrative. When they talk of F-35 now being canned after 330 Billion down the plug hole you know there is an issue.

SpringHeeledJack
6th Aug 2011, 13:02
when the rating agencies downgraded Greece, Ireland, Portugal they did it during the trading day. For the US they waitied until after the markets were closed for the weekend. Fishy eh?

I heard about a rumour yesterday morning that S&P were going to downgrade Uncle Sam after market close. After the losses of the last few days the DOW went up yesterday on news of a possible eurobond action and reduction in contagion, though towards the last hour there was a big sell-off and it makes me wonder if the 'inner circle' got the nod and cleared their positions before the rumour became fact......:rolleyes: Monday will be a bloodbath on the DOW, especially as all the institutions that are obliged to hold only AAA bonds and instruments will be obliged to liquidate their T-Bills etc and park their wealth elsewhere.

As ever, there are vested interests that are acting and in-acting for their benefit and are taking NO prisoners.



SHJ

parabellum
6th Aug 2011, 13:07
especially as all the institutions that are obliged to hold only AAA bonds and instruments will be obliged to liquidate their T-Bills etc and park their wealth elsewhere


Would these institutions still be obliged to sell with just the S & P downgrade or could they wait for(if) all three to downgrade?

lomapaseo
6th Aug 2011, 13:15
The gold fillings in my teeth are my new retirement nest egg.

BombayDuck
6th Aug 2011, 13:19
Something tells me that this fight S&P might just lose. Watch the Euro crisis unfold and people will end up putting more faith in the US. Only two days back people were flocking to Japan as a safe haven for bonds following Italian debt fears. Japan was downgraded to AA-/AA2 by all agencies in the past.

If Japan, at two notches lower with a higher Debt:GDP ratio, a recent natural disaster and worse demographics can be viewed as a safe haven, the US is surely better.

HKPAX
6th Aug 2011, 13:20
And what is worse, BONY-M (Bank of New York Mellon) is now charging percentage fees on DEPOSITS about $50 million. This is disgusting. I undertake to take care of such deposits for no fees whatsoever. That'll fix 'em.

arcniz
6th Aug 2011, 14:06
The gold fillings in my teeth are my new retirement nest egg.


Best not say that too loudly, lomapaseo, the walls may have ears.

Best thing about currency is that low-grade crooks don't have any more faith in it than we do, so they do not exert themselves too much to relieve you of it.

However, walking down a darkening narrow alley-street in a favella somewhere late at night, flashing the occasional $10,000 smile at a pretty wench, maaaay not be a prescription for long term health in these economically distressed times, at least not for the health of your chewing parts.

----

The virtue of chit money is that it is defined to be fungible, but only through controlled channels, while gold and other commodities may come and go in he night in mysterious ways, and they are infinitely fungible, intraceably so, especially when passed through a fire hot enough to melt them, simply and directly, right out of your skull.

----

The practical, applied side of Economics can be seriously frightening. Even simple economic discussions - in an open forum - have effect and purpose. Those who criticise the private ratings companies should consider that the Companies, themselves, pay some price for every pronouncement they make - due to the inherent result that favoring one party over others changes the drift and thrust of fortunes, and some fraction of the losers in each decision will be inclined to seek some kind of revenge -- slowly or quickly is their choice, and the effects will mostly blur into the spin of time, but they will still be effects..... somewhere.

----

Ratings firms and agencies are a sort of self-selected Fourth estate -- who hew with greater or lesser effect to the principle of telling the truth the way it is understood by persons who DO understand matters of finance, commerce, and economics. For lay-persons or politicians to disagree and argue with such a rating process, if fairly done, is as presumptuous as cursing the Sun for excessive brightness at certain times of day.

KAG
6th Aug 2011, 14:14
Ratings firms and agencies are a sort of self-selected Fourth estate -- who hew with greater or lesser effect to the principle of telling the truth the way it is understood by persons who DO understand matters of finance, commerce, and economics. For lay-persons or politicians to disagree and argue with such a rating process, if fairly done, is as presumptuous as cursing the Sun for excessive brightness at certain times of day.

It's called idolatry. Finance and its myrmidons: our new god and his prophet(s).

GetTheFlick
6th Aug 2011, 14:19
Sure the United States has some liabilities.

It's got some assets too. See the two big ones? There are 8 (9?) more just like them.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/US_Navy_101123-N-4856N-180_The_Abraham_Lincoln_Carrier_Strike_Group_and_the_Harry_S ._Truman_Carrier_Strike_Group_are_deployed_in_the_U.S._5th_F leet.jpg/220px-US_Navy_101123-N-4856N-180_The_Abraham_Lincoln_Carrier_Strike_Group_and_the_Harry_S ._Truman_Carrier_Strike_Group_are_deployed_in_the_U.S._5th_F leet.jpg

Now, as to Robert Reich. (Somebody commented somewhere.) He has Fairbanks disease so he's all of 4' 10" (147cm) and ugly as a garden gnome. Yet he was smart enough to get a Rhodes scholarship to Oxford (Philosophy, Politics, and Economics) and then a law degree at Yale. Even with those two handicaps he managed to get himself declared one of the "Ten Best Cabinet Members of the century" by "Time" magazine and the 6th "Most Influential Business Thinkers" by the "Wall Street Journal". And he still has enough of a sense of humor to name one of his books, "I'll Be Short".

You're right. He might be wrong. Emphasis on "might". Speaking of which, Paul Krugman might be wrong too. But I wouldn't bet on it.

--- S&P and the US (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/05/sp-and-the-usa/)

I realize we're all going to fall down Monday morning, kick our legs in the air and wet ourselves when we see the stock markets open. But we will get up, relegate the Tea Party punks to the dustbin of history and carry on.

Speaking of which, I saw that on a T-shirt yesterday -- on a teenage girl walking out of a Chinese restaurant: "Keep Calm and Carry On".

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/Keep_Calm_and_Carry_On_Poster.svg/200px-Keep_Calm_and_Carry_On_Poster.svg.png

Some of you might remember that sign from times far darker than these.

Don Brown
Get the Flick (http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=%22Get+the+Flick%22)

KAG
6th Aug 2011, 14:43
It's got some assets too. See the two big ones? There are 8 (9?) more just like them. You do realize it's part of the actual problem, do you?
And it's rather childish and arrogant, you will have to get use to do without this attitude soon, better to start now.


Keep calm and carry on? You refer to WW2, one of the best time of the US in its history (it gave the US gold/glory/credibility with an economic boom, definitely not "dark time"). We are not in this situation today.

http://www.pprune.org/6623272-post20.html That's a good idea, but the US will have to recreate its nation pattern and beleif.

WW2 gave to the US:
-An economic boom ("cash and carry", "lend and lease")
-the moon travel (wernher von braun nazi SS officer at the head of NASA, "operation paper clip")
-English as the international language and the result in propaganda (possibility to rewrite history/american universities), movie industry (hollywood), information (CNN)
-Gold reserve (the european and chinese one through cash and carry) and the dollar as an international money (and all its related economic benefit for the US)
-european scientists

It means that what the US is today comes from a war (WW2), and all the US hero phantasmagoria is based upon it. Some would even say that the US as we know it today was created in the 40s... The US adopted its war culture from this time.

Stay out of everyone's business? Yes, but the US will have to really reinvent itself, in addition to face the issues I mentioned in the first post, it's all the interest of this thread.

GetTheFlick
6th Aug 2011, 15:37
You do realize it's part of the actual problem, do you?

What? That the U.S. military spends so much money?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/0b7ea9b398bc3d1defb7852c62eb50e3.png

Have you ever thought of it as a jobs program? You know, basic R&D? You've heard of DARPA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARPA), right? Who do you think is doing the heavy lifting (http://www.energymatters.com.au/index.php?main_page=news_article&article_id=1570) on alternative energy research in the U.S.? (BTW, I got that from reading Robert Reich because, well...I'm just not that smart to figure it out on my own.)

We've got problems in the U.S., KAG. I'll grant you that. Lots and lots of problems. Lots of big problems. But while you're on that WWII thing you might want to remember who it was we (that'd be the Allies) beat -- Japan and Germany. And how they were rebuilt (that'd be America). You know, the world's 3rd & 4th largest economies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)). And just in case you think it's a fluke, check out South Korea (15th) while you're there. It's immensely complicated so let's just say that there's a special sauce in America's foreign policy gumbo for now.

Trust me, I don't intend to sound arrogant about it. I'm just stating reality. I've read Niall Ferguson's "Empire" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niall_Ferguson#Colossus_and_Empire) and take his warning to heart -- that the U.S. is headed down the same path as the British Empire.

That's my greatest fear about the current economic stupidity unfolding here -- I know that the Great Depression led directly to World War II. "...black-shirted, bat-wielding youths chasing down dark-skinned..." Sound familiar? (http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/World/20110802/greece-economic-and-political-crisis-110802/) Yeah, I got that one from Krugman (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/02/macroeconomic-folly/). Because -- really -- I'm not that smart. But he is.

Don Brown
Get the Flick (http://tinyurl.com/4ypkqlk)

seacue
6th Aug 2011, 16:26
I'm not good at history and am nearly illiterate. Didn't some Frenchman write about the the American democracy in the very early 19th Century? Wasn't part of his message that democracy can't work in the long run: as soon as the populace figured out that it can vote itself money?

The Western World has had quite a few decades of that situation.

Even "conservatives" such as Mr Reagan and most of the following administrations, spent beyond their means. The national debt doubled in the Reagan years - expressed as in term of GDP (1981-1989).

This chart stops before the recent great increase.
http://tinyurl.com/2bq4x9k
The cost of DARPA is a tiny part of the Defense budget, surely less than 1%. I remember that it was about $2 billion circa 1990. They had 2 or 3 big-bucks projects that got the PR, but very many small ones supporting scientific R&D, not directly military. I recall someone at one of the premiere university Computer Science departments saying that they'd "blow away" without the DARPA money. DARPA money supported many of their doctoral students.

GetTheFlick
6th Aug 2011, 16:57
DARPA money supported many of their doctoral students.

Seacue,

If any young whippersnapper ever decides to delve into the FAA's history they'd do well to look for Lincoln Lab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Laboratory) and SAGE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Laboratory#SAGE).

"SAGE was designed to collect, analyze, and finally relay data from a multitude of radars, all quickly enough that defense responses could be initiated if needed."

It just happened to suit air traffic control too. And MIT is still involved in the FAA's research (not to mention DOD's.)

P.S. Do you have a link for that chart? I'd like to use it so I need the source.

Don Brown

seacue
6th Aug 2011, 19:33
I did a Google search for <national debt president> it turned up my chart and many others. My chart.
National Debt by President | The Big Picture (http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2010/05/national-debt-by-president/)

Edited to send long unrelated content as PM.

BombayDuck
6th Aug 2011, 22:38
A blast from the past: S&P Defends "A" Rating for Lehman Brothers (http://www.cfo.com/article.cfm/12295579?f=related)

Flash2001
6th Aug 2011, 23:48
Wait for Securities & Exchange and IRS investigations of S&P. Somehow I don't think you'll have to wait long.

After an excellent landing etc...

11Fan
7th Aug 2011, 00:20
Seems like many are coalescing aroung blaming S&P for the current calamity.

There's a talking point in there somewhere BandAide.

birrddog
7th Aug 2011, 00:33
BandAide, in furtherance of that point...

As the size of the US economy dwarfs all others, I'd suggest we be held to a higher standard, or lower debt to GDP ratio, as there are no other countries who could step in and bail the US out.

SASless
7th Aug 2011, 02:31
Ever thought about who owns Standard and Poors?

A small outfit called McGraw-Hill.



http://www.topsecretwriters.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/mcgraw-hill.png

KAG
7th Aug 2011, 02:46
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/08/06/business/06sp-ratings-graphic/06sp-ratings-graphic-popup-v2.png

KAG
7th Aug 2011, 02:55
The day after Standard & Poor’s took the unprecedented step of stripping the United States government of its top credit rating, the ratings agency offered a full-throated defense of its decision, calling the bitter stand-off between President Obama and Congress over raising the debt ceiling a “debacle.” It warned that further downgrades may lie ahead.


New york Times. August 6, 2011.