QF pilots offered J* MOU/other positions

[Capt Kremin]

Interesting timing here.

QF Flight Ops have announced that there are "substantial" numbers of J* Capt and FO slots now available under the MOU and otherwise. ( I guess that means you can quit and save them paying out a redundancy).

All positions to be offered under the current J* EBA.

[cart_elevator]

Interesting times. cabin crew just got told they are extending the time limit they can apply for VR.

Guess the news on the 24th of August is going to be really big changes as the rumours say.

:{

[SOPS]

This all just gets stranger and stranger (Im sory if that is not good English)

[Pukka]

Qantas as we knew it is dead.

[mohikan]

SOPS.

Not really. Actually I have been waiting for an announcement like this.

Imagine the PR optics on 24th of August if, in addition to moving the bulk of QF operations offshore, 1000 or more mainline pilots are made redundant.

Not withstanding the redundancy costs, the PR fallout will be a disaster. The media is already slowly starting to get all over the BS and lies from BB and AJ. The last thing they need is any further scrutiny.

Additionally, and perhaps more importantly, other Airlines that have introduced 'B' 'C' and 'Z' scales over the years, have then engineered mechanisms where pilots flowed naturally onto those scales with the minimum of industrial fuss. Think Cathay and the way they introduced the 'b' scale and you will get my drift.

In this instance if a large number of QF guys / girls go to JQ then the company has the moral ascendancy on this issue. AJ can stand up in public and tell the media that the pilots have 'voluntarily' left QF for JQ.

Said pilots also cannot complain in the future that they are now on a 'Z' scale also..

[BeerMan]

Not many details in the note from the CP and it was stated further details are to come. However, my understanding from the note was that these positions are to be on a LWOP basis... therefore the ability to come back to mainline after the fixed period.

Have I got this right?

[Motorola]

Only if there's a slot to come back to.

[Ultergra]

Does this MOU apply to pilots pre 2004 or for all current QF pilots?

I remember some rant from Joycey saying that a very limited number of Qantas pilots had taken up the initial MOU offer; its probably because every pilot pre 2004 is already an FO, so why change colours and work harder for less?

[SkyScanner]

Given that Qantas is short of S/Os on the 744 and 330 at the moment, the crewing costs will only increase as F/Os will have to fly as S/Os who take the LWOP..:ugh:

[noip]

I can't help thinking this is another crack in the dam ...

The smartest guys in the room have discovered that their theories on pilot recruitment are not holding up in the real world. They have been eventually forced to (shudder) try Mainline at (ugh) EBA rates.

Perhaps there is more in the Larder than they'd like to admit?


N

[ACT Crusader]

Interesting timing here.

QF Flight Ops have announced that there are "substantial" numbers of J* Capt and FO slots now available under the MOU and otherwise. ( I guess that means you can quit and save them paying out a redundancy).

All positions to be offered under the current J* EBA.

Details seem a bit scant Capt Kremin. Because on the surface if a QF mainline pilot moves to J* then QF can't escape the transfer of business provisions in the Fair Work Act.

There are related entity clauses. The Emirates arrangement seemed to bypass that.

[waren9]

Beerman


these positions are to be on a LWOP basis


Previously, QF pilots have had to resign in order to access a J* command via the MOU.

[jaded boiler]

Not quite correct waren9. A transfer in rank, ie qf captain to jq captain did not require a resignation. Transferring as an f/o, then subsequently taking a jq command required resigning from qf. Happy to stand corrected.

[waren9]

As am I. Just going on previous cases I think. Not aware of any QF Capts jumping across. Yet.

[FFRATS]

Previously, QF pilots have had to resign in order to access a J* command via the MOU.
If you went FO to Cpt while on the MOU at J*
You can be a QF FO or SO and still come over for direct CMD if you have pre-req's.

FFRATS

[Lookleft]

15 OZ commands have just been advertised but a lot more have been advertised in NZ,Vietnam and Sing. QF F/Os come across with 4 bars so don't have to resign until the end of the LWOP.

[FFRATS]

Posted on other thread but think relevant here-
AUG 24th....
The sky is not falling down!! Yet..
It's the AGM and I believe not a time to announce a major pilot surplus and that large numbers could be made redundant .
More questions will be out there after this date I think.
The offer of J* positions on the MOU should be considered after all the details are on the table and the possibly that if there is a forced move your A320 endorsement should be paid for...

FFRATS

[Handbrake]

FFRATS

24 August 2011 - Preliminary Final Result Announcement

28 October 2011 - AGM

[hotnhigh]

Interesting timing indeed. Why the rush to have your letter of preference updated? The communication skills of the pilot managers never cease to amaze.

[Capt Kremin]

Jetstar seeks 150 extra pilots in recruitment drive | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/jetstar-seeks-150-extra-pilots-in-recruitment-drive/story-fn7j19iv-1226103823844)

Well at least the numbers are now clarified.

[clark y]

From the Herald Sun article-

Buchanan "confirmed that Jetstar had updated an industrial agreement with the pilots union"
Can anyone in the Unions confirm or deny if the EBA and/or MOU has been "updated"?


"He said experienced Qantas pilots wishing to scale down their hours as they approached retirement would be welcome to apply"
BB must have got his + and - symbols mixed up on his calculator with respect to the hours flown (probably alot of other calculations as well).

[my oleo is extended]

Angryrat, excellent post . I hope you dont mind me disecting it a little;
This house of cards is about to come crashing down. The pressure is so high that the cracks are appearing everywhere.
Yep. I haven't seen a bunch or rats scurrying so hard in years ! And where is Wirthless, very quiet at the moment ? On annual leave or receiving a 3 week hair and make-up makeover in preparation for the August 24 ****storm ?
BB's blaming of AIPA for everything was classic. He has met his match and is struggling to keep his head above water. Agreed. These guys have started a war that will take major casualties on both sides, make no doubt about it. The timing is hilarious. A few year ago they would have possibly got away with overhauling the organisation and screwing workers, but that was then and this is now. People at all levels of society have had a gutful of corporate greed, especially since 2008, and we no longer find it morally, ethically or socially acceptable to let a handful of individuals load their pockets at the expense of trampling over tens of thousands of decent people.
Folks the only way to shove it back in managements faces and fight tooth, nail and claw is through 'strength in numbers'.
AJ's position is untenable with the amount of union action going on and it will be all over red rover in September. Agreed. But the pressure needs to be kept on, push them harder guys. Counteract with every available tool in the tool shed. If they want to spill some blood then lets take it to them. There is more than one way to skin a cat, remember that. Hit management in the pocket and it is like touching the pupil of their eye.
The board are copping it from the shareholders and there is a revolt on the way. Cracks, there are leaks springing everywhere.
Indeed the cracks are opening. And indeed the shareholder should be very aware of what is at stake - their precious investments.
Are you, the shareholder, whether you are a ma and pa investor, employee, market dabbler of large finance firm prepared to remain sitting by as casual observers while this war escalates ? If you think the fight is onesided you ought to think again.
Even Ken B. is distancing himself from the current management, after the J* Thai debacle, change of heart or saving his own backside?
Now that is funny, poor old Ken. He would be crapping himself reading this thread as he would never have thought such an array of questions was humanly possible, let alone would he have even known that such 'gray' areas even existed. By now Ken would realise that even he needs to lube up his aft hold for the reaming that is coming, he too is just another employee liability.
This deal stinks and the timing is offensive! Agreed. However, this would be viewed as a sweetner in managements mind, they would feel they have chalked up a win. Pilots aren't made redundant, still employed under MOU's within the group. We need to forenscially examine any propsal and if it is nothing short of a sham, smoke and mirrors or general excrement then throw it back at them and expose the folly.

[fishers.ghost]

Jetstar are seeking to recruit an extra 150 pilots. Picture: Rob Baird Source: Herald Sun
JETSTAR is launching a campaign to recruit an extra 150 pilots for its rapidly expanding operations, clearing the way for dissatisfied Qantas pilots to transfer and Tiger's disgruntled counterparts to apply.

The budget carrier's chief executive Bruce Buchanan said the offer -- first reported in the Herald Sun yesterday -- was open to pilots worldwide but confirmed that Jetstar had updated an industrial agreement with the pilots union to allow smooth transfer from its parent Qantas.
The move comes as Tiger Airways looks set to get back into the air next week, with a Federal Court hearing yesterday put off as unnecessary, in agreement with the Civil Aviation Safety Authority.
A formal announcement that Tiger has been cleared to fly after August 1 is likely within the next 72 hours, as the airline and CASA finalise reviewed pilot training procedures.
Tiger is expected to resume passenger services late next week.The move to recruit an extra 150 pilots for Jetstar in Australia, New Zealand and Asia comes in the midst of a worldwide shortage of pilots.
Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce confirmed the flag carrier bore an excess of about 80 positions among its 2700 pilots because it had not cut back pilots positions during the global financial crisis.
He was pleased to give individuals, particularly first officers, an opportunity to gain promotion at Jetstar.
Both airlines said the base pay for pilots -- around $110,000 for a Jetstar wide-bodied aircraft first officer and $190,000 for a captain -- were about equal and consistent with international standards.
Mr Buchanan said Jetstar needed flexibility on hours within its pilot workforce, due to seasonal variations in its holiday traffic.
He said experienced Qantas pilots wishing to scale down their hours as they approached retirement would be welcome to apply as Airbus A320 and A330 pilots, as would first officers and others seeking promotion.
The Australian and International Pilots Association, which approved the recent extension of the Qantas-Jetstar transfer arrangement as part of its enterprise agreement, was positive over the move.

[lineupandwait]

You've got management where you want them, don't give up now, make life really hard for them.

Do you really want to work for Jetstar and BB? Think about it.

[SOPS]

This whole thing stinks very badly,pornstar wants pilots qantas does not?Why dont they just do it..we all know what they want..shut Qantas down and call Jetstar "Qantas Lite" and then let the war begin.

Comments in the media saying "qantas captains can scale down their hours by joining Jetstar" highlights the fact that (yet again) the media has no idea what is going on, but I think they will very shortly when there is no Qantas.

My only problem with all of this is, what is AJs agenda? After he has destroyed the airline completley, and there is nothing left..what is in it for him...a large payout no doubt..but to be known as the man who destoyed Qantas, is any payout worth that?

I am sittinh here tonight a very very confused individual. (and as someone who went through 89 I dont confuse easily:ugh:)

[Barry Mundy]

"qantas captains can scale down their hours by joining Jetstar"

Wouldnt this comment imply that QANTAS captains are more productive and therefore paid more than J*? So why is Q INT 'losing money" and not J*

The company message is more confusing by the day.

[Lookleft]

The only way Qantas pilots are going to scale back their hours is if BB is hinting at part-time positions otherwise they will be doing 800hours+ a year. If BB thinks that LH Captains are going to join J* as some sort of semi-retirement job he's the one living in cloud cuckoo land. There have only been 15 commands advertised for OZ the rest are for overseas "Group" positions.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

qantas captains can scale down their hours by joining Jetstar

Aren't Jetstar pilots being pretty well worked to capacity (hence grumbling about fatigue)? When I think about scaling back, I certainly don't think Jetstar.

[34R]

Let me get this straight.

An overwhelming majority of LH pilots vote in the affirmative for PIA.

Pilots are striving for Qantas pilots on Qantas aircraft with Qantas T & C's.

Managements answer: Please fly for Jetstar on Jetstar T & C's.

Pure genius.....My letter of preference will be staying as is, thank you very much.

Those ivory towers are looking very shaky indeed.

The timing of this is the most intriguing part. LH pilots fearful of mass redundancies and are thrown this apparent life line. However I am under the impression that QF cannot make a pilot redundant if they are continuing to hire in other areas? If they make a pilot redundant and offer them one of these Jetstar positions, it will be on their current T & C's?
It stands to reason that anyone taking up one of these MOU positions will forego the FWA Act provisions and find themselves under the current Jetstar EBA.

[Muff Hunter]

most JQ captains are bouncing off 1000hrs, and monthly totals regularly exceed 100..

[Shark Patrol]

Personally, I think QF management don't want to lose the young QF guys off the bottom of the list, but under the LH contract, it's last on first off.

There will probably be a bunch of retirements in the next few years, so this must be some desperate ploy to get the oldtimers out of the way - but via J*???? I wouldn't work for that clown Buchanan no matter what you paid me!

[rmcdonal]

How does this all fit in with the FWA? They way I understand it if you are made redundant from Qantas you can't be re-employed within 3 months back onto a similar job being paid a lesser rate. The clause was brought in to stop companies closing and re-opening the next day with a new name and lesser terms and conditions. So if you get the boot from Q you can't then go to Jetstar? I know there was some kind of exemption given to allow pilots voluntarily leaving a high paid job to go to a lower paid job (Qlink to Jetstar) but I don't see that working in this example as you will have been made redundant.
Is this still the case? :confused::ooh:

[Toruk Macto]

Whats the story with the Cpt in HK ? Was he doing contract compliance? If he was in contract compliance and he was stood down then AIPA need to sort this out quick.

[Keg]

AIPA gave QF the required three days notice of PIA by this one pilot. IIRC it was to activate three aspects of our PIA criteria- uniform contrary to the FAM, work to rule and not extending tours of duty. QF exercised their option of a 'lock out' against this pilot which they're entitled to do under the FWA provisions.

My assessment is that QF is playing games. They know that if AIPA enacted the 'no extensions' across the board that they can't stand us all down and they'd have to wear it. They're doing this with Steve because a, they can and b, it'll irritate AIPA and cost them money in flying Steve home and covering his pay.

However, it's important to point out that this is an irritation rather than the main game. It's like the weigh in before a title fight. Lots of trash talk, a bit of bravado. It's not the main game.

So why don't we enact this across the board? It's not yet time. This is a marathon, not a sprint. This is still the 'false war'. Sit on your hands, evaluate the situation, consider the options and THEN act.

Oops, didn't realise that I was contributing to the thread drift. See this thread (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/458454-standing-down-captain-7.html) for info relating to recent standing down of Captains.

[Jackneville]

Back on topic.

This is nothing more than a cynical industrial tactic, a desperate one at that......remember it was only a couple of weeks ago that they were promising LOA to go to Emirates......and while I'm on a roll, check out the 'Letters' in today's AFR.

[breakfastburrito]

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/1118/afrletters29july2011.jpg
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

AFR July 29 2011, Letters to the Editor, page 63

[woodja51]

Not sure how the EK thread comparison relates - except as an argument for QF management to distort the competition cost base?

I think EK actually has 57 000 employees across the group, and 150 aircraft which makes it about 380 per jet. Not sure of industry standard - maybe QF guys could work that out and advise?

The only way you could afford that number of workers per ASK would have to be the average pay and conditions lower than other operators by a significant number.

These expat benefits are only paid to pilots, some engineers and management - not every one gets schooling, medical etc for free....if you are cabin crew and you get married for example you have to move out of company accommodation and enter the rental or purchasing market - which is a basket case on the money they provide for that in reality.

Pilots - much better off - but only 3000 of the 57 000.

AP is correct that they pay lots of other benefits,medical etc but the total employee cost is absorbed into the DXB economy.

If EK wanted to efficiently save money on these expat extras they would base pilots offshore. The same work would get done, it would reduce their cost base ( ie no .01 doctors per pilot to employ, .01 staff to administer them, house them etc)

The reason they don't is political, not cost based - highly paid pilots engineers etc spend money on cars , housing, maids, going out, shopping etc etc which fuels the economy of the place and goes straight to the locals pockets/government entities.

Example:
12 year B777 line captain , no kids at school but housing allowance and flight pay ( for 850 hours for the year ) = 1 million dhs pa= 250 000 AUD no tax. ( plus about 25 000 k pension fund money).

My buddies on the 380 as F/Os with QF tell me their gross group certificate is 230 k. p/a, with tax around 80k.

I assume QF long haul captain would be around 320 000 k pa from past posts, tax around 130k about right to say?


Therefore I think it is fair to say QF pilots cost their employers far more than EKs do, but probably have less take home pay due to the socialist taxation.

By what margin in percentage terms when related to ASKs I dont know.

Anyway, good luck with the AIPA action - try to keep the public on side, as that is where you will need support. WJA

[Visual Procedures]

I think EK actually has 57 000 employees across the group, and 150 aircraft which makes it about 380 per jet. Not sure of industry standard - maybe QF guys could work that out and advise?

From the employee website, Dubai staff count 38 049, outstation 5 300.

Facts, interrupting rumors.. Sorry.

[Velikiye Luki]

Interestingly once again there were no SEQ positions available to QF crew via the MOU.

Does anyone in JQ commute to SYD or MEL, waiting for a SEQ slot to come up?

Is it feasible to commute in JQ? Especially given the high hours they are flying at the moment.

Is there likely to be any extra positions at the SEQ base coming up in the near future?

[OhForSure]

But I thought Alan said that Qantas pilots would pollute the Jetstar culture :confused:

[Nunc]

Given the times I can see some as using these slots as a chance to get an upgrade that is not available in mainline at the moment and possibly move onto another airline that values it's employees if such a beast exists once required criteria are attained. I can certainly understand the logic in considering the chance to move to Jet*.

It should also been seen a cynical industrial tool by Joyce and co to undermine the current EBA negotiations. What will we look like wanting equivalent pilot pay for QF codeshare airline pilots when we are jumping ship to a mob we have been saying are under paying its pilots substantially (which they are).

Time to stay united, it is clear despite BB's BS that they cannot get pilots, supply and demand will require a look at renumeration. A mate in Jet* Asia has just been given a payrise, SQ's LCC is going to need pilots, how many pilots do EK need? Management know that they will lose pilots if the T&cs are better on the other side. I sense a bit of panic from the clowns running QF and Jet*, holding our nerve can only result in a better future for the entire group both QF and Jet*. Maybe I'm dreaming too.

[allthecoolnamesarego]

Can anyone with an 'industrial relations expertise' confirm or deny a rumour I heard the other day; that being if you are made redundant whilst on LWOP, you forfeit your redundancy package?

If this is true, it would be a brave person to take LWOP from Q so as to fly with J*. If (perhaps when) Q start making people redundant, you would lose you entitlements.

Would be very handy for Q!!

Any one have a reference to the relevant legislation?

Cool names

[dragon man]

A friend who is a 767 Captain commenced LWOP this week. He insisted and Qantas obliged in his letter authorising LWOP that if redundancy was offered while he was gone that he would be able to access it. Qantas were only to happy to oblige.

[Motorola]

What redundancy package? There isn't one.

Last on/first off and 6 months notice, that's it.

[Dragun]

Last on/first off and 6 months notice, that's it.

Unless Joycey and co. cry poor to the government about retraining costs and get their way. Then it'll be a free for all depending on type and rank. The precedent was set with Kendell.

[breakfastburrito]

Were Kendell's simultaneously screaming pilot shortage and making plans for mass recruitment in one wholly owned subsidiary whilst making pilots redundant in another? The circumstances seem quite different.

Here's a link to the judgment Kendell's Redundancy (http://www.stuartwood.com.au/upload_files/2002/Australiawide%20airlines%20Decision%2023.7.02.pdf)[.pdf]. Perhaps someone with a legal background could give a view.

[Dragun]

Yea they do seem quite different. Sadly though, there is a similar precedent, which in a general sense, seems to suggest that there are ways around those sort of clauses if management gets desperate enough. Hopefully there is a way around it all anyway without the need for redundancies.

[Velikiye Luki]

Do any of the captains commute to DRW? Is it possible with the rosters? Is it possible with the limited number of flights? Do you get many days at home?

[Artificial Horizon]

With regard to Last In First Out (LIFO) can I just share an experience from a previous airline. When Voluntary Redundancy was being offered around and the possibility of Compulsory Redundancies LIFO was being bandied about as the way it would happen. Problem was that the Airline (Legacy Carrier) had other ideas. Upon further investigation it proved that due to human rights legislation in the European Union LIFO had recently been deemed to be illegal due to age discrimination, the more junior pilots tended to be younger. Also it was deemed to be 'unfair' on the company due to having to make people redundant from positions that then had to be filled by training someone else. For example if it is the 767 fleet that QF wants to put out the door (no idea just a random pick), using LIFO then second officers from the 747 etc would have to be made redundant and then the 767 pilots retrained over to the 747. After much negotiation the union and airline came up with a point system to determine who would be made redundant, it went along the lines of:

Each Year in the Airline = +1
Sim Score deviation from Average = +/- Average
Annual Sick Day Average = - Average

And so it went on, there were about 15 variables including a big weighting towards which fleet, thankfully it never came to CR as enough VR candidates came forward and 80ish pilots left the airline.

Just be warned, the assumption that LIFO is the way it will go (if there are any redundancies) may lead to a big surprise, I am sure Qantas would rather make a 'fleet' redundant than retrain.

[Bigboeingboy]

Qantas pilots will have to resign and apply for Jetstar. I have this on good authority from AIPA Pres.

[aussie_herb]

Is that under the MOU Boeingboy ? It states that only if you wish to stay for longer than 3 years or take an upgrade from F/O to Capt that you would have to resign . Interesting .

[Kemerton]

Virgin Australia hiring substantially by year end. Might interest lower seniority B737 FO's



Also



‪Forecast: staggering demand for pilots and technicians‬‏ - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wojNSCgs1Mg&feature=player_embedded#t=0s)

[Anthill]

Vaustralia also running 3 intakes for the rest of the year. This could appeal to S/Os at QF. Salary should be up to $77k ++ Super/overtime Per Diems. B777 type rating provided.

[ACT Crusader]

Can anyone with an 'industrial relations expertise' confirm or deny a rumour I heard the other day; that being if you are made redundant whilst on LWOP, you forfeit your redundancy package?

If this is true, it would be a brave person to take LWOP from Q so as to fly with J*. If (perhaps when) Q start making people redundant, you would lose you entitlements.

Would be very handy for Q!!

Any one have a reference to the relevant legislation?

Cool names


My take on what I've heard/read, is that the most important is the specific details of the MOU.

Firstly there is nothing that I am aware of that prohibits an employer in offering LWOP arrangements. Likewise there is nothing that forces an employee to take up an offer.

From what I can gather from the various posts on the matter, a QF pilot will under the terms of the MOU remain employed by QF during the LWOP period up until a "sunset" date (ie up to 3 years). After that sunset date the terms of the MOU cease to exist.

The question is - can QF in that 3 year period make you redundant? Firstly, by definition redundancy is for a position, not a person. It might seem like semantics, but it is important in such a scenario.

An employer can in the event of "changes to the operational requirements" make a genuine redundancy. But a genuine redundancy does not occur if the employee can be redeployed within the business (in this scenario, very unlikely) or within an associated entity of the employer (mmm....who could that be??)

There is the possibility that QF could as a result of 'operational requirements' (restructure etc) make a number of pilot positions redundant. If all of those positions were previously filled by pilots on LWOP who are now under an MOU flying for J*, the positions may not fall within the definition of genuine redundnacy because those very pilots are working within an associated entity".

The scenario that gets really interesting is if lets say a pilot takes 3 years LWOP, does not accept an upgrade etc, and then seeks to return to QF, however the position this pilot previously occupied was made "redundant". QF could redeploy to an associated entity and as I understand it that pilot would still be employed by by an associated entity.

It's pretty complex to try and explain but that's my pennies worth and open to others views if they have more details on the arrangement on offer.

[SOPS]

And we are assuming in all of this, that in 3 years time there will be a Qantas to go back to.

[ACT Crusader]

SOPS - I'll bet my house that there will be a QF in 3 years, but it would be a safe bet that there will be no 'positions' for when/if a pilot chooses to go back.

[Rashid Bacon]

SOPS - I'll bet my house that there will be a QF in 3 years.......


Exactly what odds are you offering ? :E

[waren9]

Never take LWOP without a gauranteed slot at the end of an agreed term.

LWOP 101.

[Mstr Caution]

Further to LWOP 101.

Get familiar with the terms:
"you"
"may"
"required"
"any"
"after consultation"
per JQ EBA para 12.2.2 :yuk: