Fallacy or Fact - Qantas International losses

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Most would be aware that the current Qantas CEO has been peddling the line about the poor performance of the International arm of the Qantas Group. At no stage however has he done anything other than tell the story and I strongly suspect he is doing it for the wrong purpose. Qantas fares are at the top end of the market as are their load factors, this is without question. Yield is what makes an airline business profitable and with the above variables extremely healthy, the only component that could drag the equation down is the operations expenses.

Most would be aware that there are many components that make up the Operating expenses. Fuel, maintenance, wages, aircraft purchase costs, landing fees and f**ken big payouts to former Executives. You can't do much about some of them such as the price of fuel but if the overall expenses are excessive, yield diminishes and the airline loses money.

Now with Alan selling a notion that International is unprofitable, I can only assume he is saying that costs are too high for that portion of the business. I have no doubt that some costs are higher than those of Jetstar and Qlink but are they so high that he can justify the recent statements? ALAEA members have given anecodatal evidence to suggest that some parts of the wider group are loading up International with additional bills to make it look unprofitable. Qantas have closed their books to investors so we can't really examine it through that channel but there is another avenue.

With the unions currently in negotiation, I would suspect they have all been fed this line about the struggling business. Under the FWA, both parties are obliged to justify any claim and I want them to demonstrate to ALAEA members at least how the expenses are billed to each portion of the group. I don't want Strambi to come in with some pie charts and a powerpoint and just ask us to trust him, I want the full picture. When a Qlink passenger has an OJ from the Qantas Club, how is that billed back to Qlink? Tomorrow we will be in FWA again and our union intends to ask the relevant questions. If anyone has any ideas on where we should start digging, please post them here. Some of my ideas already -

How is Ian Oldmeadow's consultancy billed and how does his fee get paid by each portion of the business?

With the aircraft Qantas lease and then sub lease to another entity, what are the lease costs, how much is passed on and who pays for the maintenance?

Why have LAMEs been told not to fill out form 2350's (customer billing sheets) when additional work or assistance is required on Jetstar aircraft?

What portion of the business is paying the legal bills for the Jit Connict court case?

Who is paying for the $21 million refurb of Hangar 245 that will predominantly house 787's?

Which part of the business pays for advertising? It seems that there aren't too many Qantas ads right now....

etc..... Please if you could help me with ideas at all it would be much appreciated. Just simple questions, no great debates, we can leave that to the other threads.

cheers
Steve P

[ejectx3]

When a delay on a QF aircraft is incurred whilst waiting for J* passengers , who were now to be carried home to SYD by QF ( as their a/c went u/s), we were told that the delay was costing $330 per minute to hold on the aerobridge, charged by the airport . Who pays this cost?

[Ngineer]

A well timed scare mongering fallacy.

Management are just trying to whip the union members into line.

[hotnhigh]

Many good questions to ask fed sec.
I understand a number of unions have started to dig to try and find the answers. Any truth to the rumour that QF has had a quiet word to some of the big four accounting firms, who have been asked by some unions to assist in running the numbers that they, the unions, have uncovered?
Also as an addition, would be keen to learn how much jetstar, jetstar int and efa pay for the use of sim time and ep facilities and also the amount they contribute to pay for the upkeep of such facilities.
Keep digging. You may need a big shovel.

['holic]

A few years ago QF pilots were being sent to HKG and LHR to do A330 courses while JQ were using mainline's A330 simulators for their crew.

How much were JQ paying QF to use their simulators and how did this cost compare to what QF were paying for the outsourced A330 courses + accommodation + allowances ?

[1A_Please]

If someone asks the following question of AJ at the AGM, is he in breach of the Corporations Act if he is found to have answered falsely?

"Can you advise whether Jetstar pays commercial arms-length lease rates for the A330 aircraft it leases from Qantas?"

Surely a Ben Sandilands or Stephen Mayne can be encouraged to do just this!!!

[Keg]

I'm a fan of the 'don't ask a question you don't already know the answer to' when it comes to these sorts of proceedings however the following is worth digging into.

Bruch Buchanan and a bunch of other J* people are on the Qantas Intranet directory. Under Bruce's profile is says 'company- Qantas', 'Department- Jetstar'. I wonder then who pays his salary? Is he employed by Qantas or Jetstar? Others on thet list include CEO J* Asia, the J* 'Head of International', Bruce's PA, the J* CFO, the exec manager commercial, etc. All are listed as Company- Qantas, Department J*.

It may be just an administrative thing.

Other questions:

1. Given that a lot of J* equipment is held in Qantas storage areas (formerly QCD), do J* pay a fee for the storage of these items or is this a cost that is borne by mainline?

2. J* cabin crew now do medical training with Qantas cabin crew- a recent occurrence since they copped a shellacking in the senate when their claim to 'uphold all the safety standards of Qantas' was shown to be a sham. Are they charged for this service or is it free? This training is done at the same time as security training. Not sure if they paid for the security training in the first place (or how long they've been doing it with QF crew) but did the cost increase when medical training was added on?

3. Who pays for 'Group Security'? Does J* contribute to this cost and pay for their services or is that another mainline cost?

4. When an A330 is transferred to J*- after having been delivered to QF shortly before- who does the acceptance of the aircraft in Toulouse? Are they QF people or J* people?

5. On another thread, someone mentioned an airport manager being told not to book costs onto J*. They may be referring to Honolulu where it's alleged that QF provided something like 30+ rescue flights in the one year and the additional costs for the Honolulu QF ground staff to turn around these flights was not charged to J*. QF had to wear these costs. Perhaps they were covered in the cost charged to J* for the rescue flight..... but I doubt it.

Again, I must stress I don't know the answer to these questions and I'd hate to ask them in an open court without knowing the answers.

[otto the grot]

Thats is interesting Keg.

I would have thought that BB is a post holder under the terms of the JQ AOC and as such would have to be employed by JQ not QF.

[Capt Kremin]

One of the pointers may be the number of employees per aircraft for the various arms of the group. Prima facie.... Jetstar has many EPA less than mainline.

Why?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Top questions all, keep em coming.

I wonder who pays for the Intranet upkeep if BB has his name in there.

From what we have here and the pms I am receiving, my document has 20 questions with supplemental parts. Hopefully I can walk in tomorrow with 50.

[rodchucker]

Re the Corps law I suggest that if any QF Executive or director was to make such a specific comment re the unprofitable nature of International and if it could be established that they knew that to be a false statement because of the way the accounting entries were being made which were not in accordance with the applicable accounting standards, then I do believe they may have some difficulties.

Proof is difficult because you have to firmly establish the knowledge. That is usually established by scrutiny of the email systems both to and from. (ps it is too late to start deleting because destruction of business records is also problematic ).

From recollection that was how ASIC got one of the former FAI Execs because of statements made to the press.

Don't count on any of the Big 4 helping because they would inevitably be conflicted out because of either audit or consulting work. Let alone the prospect of any future consulting work which they would never jeopardise especially when this could be such a great company if saved.

Seems that the best person to seek help from may be the former UBS guy who refused to go along with the dud deal proposed some time ago. These guys have inside sources and a high degree of knowledge at the most minute detail if they will cooperate.

If it can be established that the accounting is not as it should be (and I say if) then every middle manager with professional accounting or actuarial qualifications may need to consider their own futures because they may place those qualifications in jeopardy if it is established that they took part in any transactions or accounting entries that were not as it should be. Historical Royal Commission on corporate failures have shown a great willingness to go to all levels of management for accountability.

The term " I relied upon senior and experienced managers to advise me" will be trotted out loud and often if there are any runs in the "alleged" practices.

Similarly if it can be established that the allegations have any "legs" then that possibly also opens up the directors to class actions and that they will not like and will fight to the death.

Finally when the game is almost over you might get interest from ASIC, but don't count on it until the last event and certainly don't hold out any hope of a meaningful result that may assist employees save this company.

['holic]

1. How much of QF International's losses are due to one off events eg. A380 grounding, earthquakes, cartel fines etc? Have these losses been offset by the compensation payment from RR?

2. How much does Qantas Frequent Flyer pay Qantas to use its brand name? How much does JQ pay to be part of FF?

3. QF has depreciation costs of about $1B. JQ has depreciation costs of $17m. How is this broken down?

[QFinsider]

1. Depreciation.
Qantas depreciation (2H10) $547m from memory J* $17m. Why does all the depreciation accrue against mainline profit? Just what lease cost is paid by the"segment"

2. Intersegment revenue.
Just what cost basis is used to determine th apportionment of costs between operating segments? If a seat is 'bought' by J* on mainline, it is provided at a 'cost plus margin basis'. What margin is chaged? Given the propensity for a higher than cost charge to the customer, why does J* keep the additional revenue.? (notes to accounts 31 December 2010.

3. If Jetconnect is a standalone entity, why does the CEO not know the boardmembers? When does the board meet? If it is independent, why is board rumerneration paidfor by the ultimate parent?

Food for thought.

What is a french national, Galaxy fund manager who works from tax shelters doing on the board?

Why is Clifford connected to KKR, Bain and Co? Just what remuneration does GD and others receive through the investec leasing and GAAM structures?

The Centro properrty decision has huge ramificationsfor the Qantas board, if it is found their statements aren't consistent with the facts, or indeed omissions and errors in the acounts are present.

[skybed]

how much does J* pay for its employees in Mel/ other bases to pay (how much) for car parking/bus transfer to-from carpark/security companies costs ?
what cost of ticket is J* paying for code shares on QF ,eg. Fra-Sin then transfer to J* to oZ.
How much is FF (the company) paying for seats as $ value (Pc/JC/Wc/YC) for FF points redemption on flights?
How much is J* paying to QF for leasing check-in space/gates at every airport in OZ?
How much is J* paying to QF for its premium punters to use Valet parking?
hope this helps, :ok:

[dragon man]

1) Jetstar cabin crew are often seen paxing in uniform in J class domestically. What do they pay for those tickets and why are they upgraded before staff and frequent fliers?
2) To the best of my knowledge Jetstar have no medical department and use the Qantas medical center when they have passengers with medical queries. What do they pay for this.
3) Fuel hedging. I believe this is handled by mainline yet Jetstar benefits. What do they pay for this service and the cost advantage of using the Qantas buying power for fuel costs?.

Hope you can get some answers. Good luck.

[Markca]

Another issue is the fact that you can book a Jetstar flight from the Qantas website. Is there a booking fee paid by Jetstar.

Also you cannot book a Qantas flight on the Jetstar site yet in many cases a Qantas fare is cheaper than the Jetstar flight around the same time. Pretty much a one sided advantage to Jetstar.

[Capt Kremin]

AFAIK Jetstar doesn't own any tugs at Sydney International or any other International terminal. How much does QF charge for tug services?

[ANCDU]

Why is there a J* statement in the after landing PA about connections on a Qantas flight, but no mention of Qantas flights on J* ?? And don't forget the destinations in the in-flight magazine articles on Qantas flights that you can only get to using J*!!

Oh yeah, and recently noticed no Qantas sign on the outside of the terminal in Hobart, only J*. The more you think about it its Qantas ..part of the Jetstar Group.

Are the airservices charges for the Qantas Group paid from a single contract or from each company (Qantas/Jetstar)? i.e who pays for overflights when jetstar takes over an international route like Japan or HNL ?

[Ngineer]

profile is says 'company- Qantas', 'Department- Jetstar'

I think that you will find that a lot of the head honcho's at jackstar are actually employed by the q group and are "seconded" to the orange people.

[QFdude]

What does J* pay towards the costs of terminal space (check in), security, parking gates, Qantas Club at airports such as Melbourne?

Does J* use Medlink? Is their cost for this fully apportioned to them?

Good luck

[Slim Dog]

Why is the international section of the business losing money (so they claim), when those involved in procurement for the aircraft type (e.g.. A380 over B747 leases until 748's came online) make wonderful decisions? Do we cop the loss for their poor decision making criteria?
Another example is using A330's with light weight galley configurations instead of 777's?
Why is it that after these new A380's having entered service with a mixed configuration of seating only 450 odd passengers, that they end up getting a reconfiguration? Does this cost come out of the international business?
Who pays for the repaint work when shifting Qantas planes to Jetstar colours (and back again)?
What about the illegal international cargo trading Qantas mismanagement claims to have no idea about? Where does that funding come from?
The list grows...

[my oleo is extended]

Exactly what part of the business pays the consultancy fees into consultancy firms linked to senior executives and their mates ?
Exactly what part of the business pays for fines relating to cartel activities and other assorted infringements as has been issued by the ACCC ?
Exactly what part of the business pays the fee's associated with sending senior executives to appear before senate inquiries, including their legal representation and associated costs ?
Exactly what part of the business takes accountability for previous profit/loss statements that often do not add up ?
Exactly what part of the business pays the redundancy payments across all sectors of the entire group when positions are made redundant (e.g Qantas, Jetstar, Australian air Express etc etc) ?
Remember, this is a company that lives to make profit. As a result, every cent is accounted for, tracked, moved, shuffled etc etc by somebody on the inside (and outside). They DO know where all the money is spread and how it is spread.

[porch monkey]

Oh, they know all right. They just don't want YOU to know.

[Capt Kremin]

You could ask Lyell to explain this:

The following is an extract from the j* maint control manual, chapter 13.5 POOL SPARES:

" JETSTAR AIRWAYS HAS BEEN SPONSORED BY QANTAS AS AN EQUALISED MEMBER OF THE IATP SPARES POOLING AGREEMENT. JETSTAR AIRWAYS DOES NOT PROVIDE ANY SPARES FOR THE POOL BUT RELIES UPON QANTAS FOR THEIR PROVISION. THE POOLING SYSTEM WILL BE OPERATED BY QANTAS ON BEHALF OF JETSTAR AIRWAYS IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE PROCEDURES SET DOWN IN THE QANTAS E&M PROCEDURES MANUAL (CHAPTER 4-60-005) AND RELATED DOCUMENTS"

[slim]

Jetstar crew report the account on their fuel dockets is Qantas International.

[Capt Kremin]

Why do Jetstar fares never have the fuel surcharges that imposed on mainline imposed on it? Are the proceeds from these fares used to offset higher fuel prices across the group or just mainline?

[TIMA9X]

Jetstar crew report the account on their fuel dockets is Qantas International.
Wow, that alone is outrageous, if confirmed, a blatant fiddle that should be investigated by some of the institutional shareholders.

[-438]

How much does Jetstar charge QF for services provided? For example, space for freight on Jetstar flights?
I'm sure there are fees for a lot of these services listed above, the issue is are the rates charged/paid fair and reasonable?
One thing you can be sure of is Qantas is not being undercharged by Jetstar...

[Swimbetweentheflags]

Jetstar crew report the account on their fuel dockets is Qantas International.

Gosh sure is easy to run a business and make Jetstar look profitable when somebody else is picking up the fuel tab :yuk:

No wonder International is screwed when all the expenses are piled onto it :(

[Ace Wasabe]

When you look at all costs apportioned to mainline its amazing its still in busniess.Bit like a Sugar Daddy looking after the wants and needs of a Red Headed tart and going broke in doing so.

[lemod]

Crisis Control Centre on 5th floor QCC2 (gets used a lot these days). How much does Jetstar contribute to the extensive floor space,computors, furnishing etc?

[balance]

I would like to know why a QF A330 aircraft can be considered as loss making when it carries an average "high yeild" load factor of 82%, yet a Jetstar A330 aircraft can carry an average "low yeild" load factor of 77% on the exact same route, and be considered as profitable?

The only difference should be crew costs, and the sale of a muffin. Crew costs are not that much in the overall cost of operating an aircraft. Selling stale sandwiches does not yeild that much either.

Mathematically, the story given by Joyce is impossible. This needs to looked into. Jetscab have replaced mainline on routes where the A330 substituted for A330, and A320 has substituted for B737, and the principle remains valid. How can these mathematics be possible.

Short answer - IT ISN'T! It is a lie being told to justify the replacement of staff. :mad::mad::mad::mad:

[theheadmaster]

I think I have decoded the master plan:

Borgetti to Virgin to lift its product up to a psudo Ansett and remove itself from competing with the low cost Jetstar model.

Wait for other LCC to go out of business eg Tiger.

Subsidise Jetstar so it looks super-profitable (forget about the profits only coming from muffin sales).

By subsidising Jetstar, make mainline look unprofitable.

Sell Jetstar for huge profit. Put proceeds in to re-equipping mainline.

Due to no subsidisation from mainline and public backlash, Jetstar fails.

Qantas now regains market share with better product and equipment :)

Sent from cloud cuckoo land...

[crosscutter]

The company knows 2011/12 is going to be tough industrially.

As such I'm sure the company has brought forward as many financial year 11/12 expenses as they could into the just completed financial year. Likewise revenue would be deferred if at all possible.

It would be nice to see if there has been a spike in this activity to artificially justify the doomsday agenda

[puff]

I go the other way headmaster - been saying it for years

- Continue to build up Jetstar - gifting nearly all routes and keeping QF int. as a shell just operating LHR, SIN, LAX, JNB, offer currently QF staff redundancies whilst giving them 'preference' to apply for Jetstar positions - as a final straw kill off the remainder of QF international - by that point those a/c types are operational in the JQ fleet - transfer it all to jetstar, do a PR study which announces that QF is a stronger 'brand' that Jetstar in the QF group, and transfer all flying back to QF colours

Qantas International - operated by Jetstar...hope i'm wrong !!!!!!!!

[Capt Kremin]

What does Qantas charge Jetstar to lease 5 A320's from it? If it is market rates, why not lease from a normal leasing company?

[Handbrake]

One of my favourites from the Senate Inquiry:

Sen Xen: Mr Joyce, are you on the board of Jetstar?
Mr Joyce: I am, yes.
Sen Xen: You are obviously on the board of Qantas?
Mr Joyce: Yes
Sen Xen: Being on the Board of Directors is an integral role in terms of key strategic decisions in the airline?
Mr Joyce: Yes
Sen Xen: Mr Buchanan are you on the board of Jetstar?
Mr B: No.
Sen Xen: You are not on the board of Jetstar?
Mr B: There are some subsiduary boards. All of the companies have three directors, which is the Chief Financial Officer, the Company Secretary and me.
Sen Xen: But, Mr Buchanan you are not on the board of Jetstar?
Mr B: No.
Sen Xen: Are you accountable to the board of Qantas or to the board of Jetstar?
Mr B: I am accountable to Alan and the Jetstar board, and ultimately through Alan to the Qantas board.


So lets see, the Board Of Directorsof Qantas, are Qantas CEO Alan Joyce, Qantas Chief Financial Officer Mr Gareth Evans and the Qantas Secretary Ms Cassandra Hamlin.

They are also directors of, you guessed it:
Jetstar
Jetconnect
Eastern Ausralia
Sunstate
Express Freighters

Wake up politicians and journo's.........

[Long Bay Mauler]

If the story about JQ fuel being on the QF account is correct, this to me sounds like what AirNZ was doing to Ansett in its final days. And it was proven to be the case.

Loading up one company at the expense of another, considering that most of the management are from either Ansett or AirNZ 10 years ago,I would not put it past them,as it was tactically a great way to put Ansett out of business, surely it can work again.:hmm:

['holic]

Where mainline assets have been transferred to Jetstar (eg A330s, established routes, landing rights etc) how much of mainline's debt has also been transferred?

[Sandgroper]

What about the checkin staff in Perth who work for Qf and have to bring a JQ uniform to work and get changed to checkin for JQ and then back into Qf uniform. Who pays their wages? Unsure if this is still the practice but it was certainly happening a while back. Also I believe this was the practice in DRW a while back.

[my oleo is extended]

Steve P,

Looks like you are receiving enough data to keep you going for a month !!

Is it possible for somebody to do some number crunching and calculate executive managements total bonus payments during the period that international has been supposedly operating in such 'financially perilous circumstances' and how much of that money links into International ?
Naturally bonuses are made up from various components, and I would love to see how much money was paid out as performance bonuses and consultancy fee's over the same period of time that the international section was allegedly under-performing ? Not to mention 'accountability'. Shouldn't the upper echelon be falling on their swords if they have not been able to run an efficient business ?

[Capt Kremin]

A330's VH-EBE and EBF have never operated by mainline yet are owned by Qantas and leased to Jetstar. Why?

[rodchucker]

If you ever get any numbers look at how the Corporate office costs are allocated to the various divisions. There should be a logical basis such as share of total revenue.

If you want to make one division look worse than another you just allocate more to one than the other and dream up a reason to justify it.

If that fuel issue is correct that is a smoking gun.

[nitpicker330]

Gee that Ken Rabbitborough fella ( management stooge )is quiet on this thread?:p

Got anything smart to refute all this Ken?

Thought so.....:D

[Mstr Caution]

How much does J* pay for the use of the training facilities in Airport west in Melbourne?

How long have the Aircraft on ground team from Qantas been sourced to fix broken J* A330's around the network & at what cost?

How much did J* pay for the use of Qantas long haul Route manual supplement information?

How much was billed to Qantas for the use of the A330 ACARS for aircraft sent from Qantas to Jetstar?

What was the financial cost to mainline of transferring aircraft to Jetstar and Qantas carrying a pilot surplus for the last 3 years?

How much did Jetstar pay Qantas legal for drafting an Mou document for the exchange / transfer of pilots?

[rodchucker]

For that matter may as well include charges to Jetstar when metal goes tech and the Rat provides a replacement.

[slim]

Who paid the cost of painting the 330's in Jetstar colours (and then back to QF livery) and changing over the interiors?

[The Bungeyed Bandit]

Do Jetstar use QF's Maint Watch for their A330? I think they use to - not sure about now.

[theheadmaster]

What does Jetstar pay to Qantas for the use of the A330 simulator for its training?

[Mstr Caution]

What amount was paid to Qantas each time they were chartered to fly services to destinations like HNL & what penalties where paid QF to J* for not providing a serviceable aircraft to operate the sector?

[Going Boeing]

Does J* pay QF an appropriate (commercial) rate for seats on mainline services (codeshare) and do they pay for the meals that the J* pax consume?

[balance]

Geez. If even one tenth of the questions posed here could be answered, I think that Clifford, Joyce and Buchanan would be behind bars.

And nothing would please me more. :ok:

[Capt Kremin]

Jetstar uses the aircraft that flies to HNL as the fleet spare should another aircraft go U/S. The QF flight and crew slipping there are then press-ganged into operating the scheduled Jetstar service as a charter.

How much does Jetstar pay QF for this aircraft and crew effectively on standby to recover it's services?

[Mstr Caution]

Whilst Qantas baggage handlers loaded J* A330's at Sydney International, between the loading of Qantas aircraft.

What rate where J* charged for QF baggage handling?

[lame1]

Who paid for the Jetstar A330 lame traing.I believe they took the training slots provided by Airbus that come with every aircraft purchase If the above is true the slots should belong to Qantas who own the aircraft.I bet everthing including the Hong Kong PCT all come from Qantas.

[Capt Kremin]

In the Northern winter QF was operating 744's to NRT with load factors averaging 90%. illogically there was an A330 operating one flight a week. Can Lyell confirm the only reason this occurred was so that Jetstar would not have to provide it's own A330 rated engineers in NRT?

If so, what was the loss of revenue to mainline over this time due to the reduction in available seats (100 per week) plus who paid for the 2 mainline A330 crews paxing to and from NRT each week?

[Mstr Caution]

Qantas insures both the Qantas & Jetstar fleet thru the one insurer in London.

Who pays for the groups insurance premium?

[Sunfish]

Doing your own forensic accounting! :ok::ok::ok::ok:

Keep it up.

You will possibly prove Jetstar is a sham operation that not only attacks your terms and conditions, but possibly contravenes the Trade Practices Act because Qantas is apparently not allowed to sell goods and services at less than their cost of production.

Dutchroll had some pertinent comments. Make a note of the account codes when you fill out dockets. It would be useful if there was a chart of accounts posted, although I don't know if that is confidential or not.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Well over 50 questions all well done. I am now on overtime rates, think I will send the bill to Sue Bussel.

And who said this was just a rumour network?

[Captain Peacock]

How much does Jetconnect pay QF to maintain the JetConnect gifted aircraft flight library? I believe the annual fee is around $60,000, why doesn't JetConnect pay this?

[Mstr Caution]

Pilots returning from leave of absence from Qf to JQ.

QF covers the long service leave obligation whilst such pilots are flying for Jetstar.

Does J* have their own yield management department? Was told a while ago QF mainline staff in yield worked the figures as to what brand flies what route with which aircraft.

How much does J* pay QF group safety to work the QAR data & electronic storage of such data?

[Mstr Caution]

Capt Peacock.

I'll think you will find the Jetconnect emergency procedures manuals and training services on request are provided by Qantas.

Wasn't it some Qantas 737 management pilots sent over to manage jetconnects expansion?

[ALLICEDUP]

Who pays for uniforms?

[Bazzamundi]

With regard to NRT 330 ops, I ran into some engineers a year ago who were staying at the QF crew hotel in Narita. They were there on a month long basing.

According to them, they dispatch one QF A330 a night, and 3 JQ A330's. Why then are they staying in QF accom with allowances? How much do JQ contribute to this?

Surely it makes more sense for JQ staff to look after the bulk of the arrivals and departures (75%) while they can subcontract to QF for the minority work.

[Bazzamundi]

If you really wish to dig deep, how much do the original A330's cost QF? Or was it part of a deal with Airbus to supply free aircraft as compensation and as a sweetener for the 380 deal?

Would an Airbus salesman know how CEO's work? Pehaps they could assume that in ten years they will not be there. How about we sell aircraft now at a 50% discount, good for your bottom line in the next few years (read bonus), and in ten years from now you pay up to 3 times market rates. What bonus driven CEO would not be a part of that?

Is it true the first 330's in QF were at little or no cost. They are now with JQ. How much do they pay?

Also, do Airbus have cheaper maintenance costs over a Boeing in the first 7 to 10 years? After that, are they more expensive to maintain? Given that JQ will be handing back to QF the Airbus 330's at about 10 years of age, replacing them with 787's, how does that deal appear to you QF shareholders?

[blackbook]

Superannuation?

[2Plus]

One for the ATO...Who pays the accommodation expenses for the overseas based crew "slipping" in Darwin/Brisbane etc for periods up to two weeks (maybe more) whilst operating exclusively within Australia? Is it legal to effectively live and work in Australia for these lengthy stays? Who pays Jitconnict accom. expenses?

[PennyBenjamin]

Ladies and Gents, ther si no doubt that the Qantas accounting department is a sham, we all know it, you can list a million reasons if you like. Yes, they want mainline to look bad so that they can put negative pressure on wages, we all know this.

But imagine this. Each time one of these services is charges to another business segment at commercial rates there is a little thing called GST, sales tax and other taxes. If commercial rates are charged based on business segmentation for stand alone group businesses, the tax bill would be astronomical.

If you want to stop the rot, get rid of AJ first, Gillard Second and BB third.

[Going Boeing]

Baggage handling operations are operated and paid for by QF at Australian International Terminals. JQ will not pay for the scanning systems that every other client airline uses so the QF/QGS staff have to manually "bingo card" the bags, which takes longer and which requires an extra worker allocated to the flight.

[QAN_Shareholder]

Fed sec,

With the unions currently in negotiation, I would suspect they have all been fed this line about the struggling business. Under the FWA, both parties are obliged to justify any claim and I want them to demonstrate to ALAEA members at least how the expenses are billed to each portion of the group. I don't want Strambi to come in with some pie charts and a powerpoint and just ask us to trust him, I want the full picture.

I'm assuming you're serious here and not just grandstanding but what you are looking for is implausible. For an organisation as complex as Qantas it would take a qualified accountant with full access to all documents and finance staff weeks to get to the stage where they understand how it all operates. From your posts here it is apparent that you know as much about accounting and finance as I do about fixing planes hence 'the full picture' will always remain elusive.

If you really want to understand the source of the problems with Qantas international you could request the profitability for each of the international routes for the last few years. This is fraught with danger though since I suspect it would become apparent that there are routes that haven't made a profit for years and have no prospect of making an acceptable return anytime soon hence either routes or costs need to be cut. It is far easier to remain in ignorance and keep pretending that management are evil and corrupt.

[Bazzamundi]

If you could also ring a few of your crew in Cairns and query them as to why JQ330's arrive at 5am in the morning from Japan, and depart early afternoon. Why do they sit there with the APU running on a stand off bay for hours? A ground power unit would save a fortune. Or is there a deal that another company pays for the fuel, thereby costing them less than the ground power?

Story I was told a year or so back after getting home from Europe via staff travel through Japan and Cairns ...

[The Green Goblin]

But imagine this. Each time one of these services is charges to another business segment at commercial rates there is a little thing called GST, sales tax and other taxes. If commercial rates are charged based on business segmentation for stand alone group businesses, the tax bill would be astronomical.

Nope, any GST they pay to other group companies is credited to them from GST the collect from customers.

The consumer always pays the GST, and companies claim a credit on the GST they pay.

If this were not the case, there would be a 10% tax from factory to consumer. Ultimately business passes the tax on and gets credits for everything they pay.

[Mstr Caution]

Bazzamundi,

Ever seen an A320 in melbourne using ground power?

[Z Force]

Why does Qantas have to pay Jetstar for duty travel yet Jetstar crew just turn up in the Qantas booking system?
I'm also intrigued as to how you can run an airline the size of Jetstar from one floor of an office block.

[Ngineer]

If you really want to understand the source of the problems with Qantas international you could request the profitability for each of the international routes for the last few years.

Profitability is derived when offset against the cost base. Hence the reason for this thread; ie, misappropriating costs into another's cost base.

[Seabreeze]

Going-Boeing asks about fares paid to/from JQ on codeshare flights.

The QF 2010 Annual Report shows a total group income of nearly $14 billion, of which JQ earns $2 billion. So the "loss" of $200m attributed to QF international is 200/14000 or about or 1.4% of the total group revenue, or 10% of JQ revenue.

You don't need to fiddle the amounts earned which are attributed to the pro-rated fares much to move significant overall incomes from QF to JQ.

And if both costs and incomes are worked the "right" way, the apparent balance of the bottom line between QF and JQ can be swung to make JQ look much better than it really is.

SB

[Bazzamundi]

Qan Shareholder (as am I),

Do you not agree that QF operates the oldest and most fuel inefficient fleet compared to our competitors? Can you tell me the fuel burn of a 777 versus a 747 on the routes we operate? Even though some aircraft are depreciated to an extent, as they age the reliability and maintenance expenses offset the advantages.

If you wish to say how unprofitable we are, perhaps you should consider that to do a proper job we require the right tools. Not left handed screwdrivers when we are right handed as a certain media manager might report. Every day in Qantas (lets say 60 to 70 747 and 380 sectors are flown) and the fuel burn is about 100T per day per aircraft compared to a 777 operating the same amount of hours, how much does this cost? Petty cash you QF accountants seem to call it. For a similar payload. Duh?

Qan Shareholder, do you agree the highest paid airline CEO of the last decade made the correct choices with regard to the fleet? Was putting all the eggs in the 787/380 basket the masterstroke that will take QF to the forefront of globalisation?

Can you tell me how much money some JQ330 Captains were paid in the last 12 months compared to QF ones? Also, some JQ 320 captains were paid a hell of a lot more than some 737 Captains. Yet you hang onto the notion that us and the engineers are the entire and total cause of any woes QF faces. In your opinion, if we are the only problems, can you not see why things have reached the point where they are now?

Then again, do you not understand the cost of the action your beloved managers are about to provoke? Will it cost you more than it saves? Even if you win, the feedback from the public is that the brand damage you will incur offsets the gains. Then again, the accountants only see the numbers, not the opportunity costs.

['holic]

1. In the recent FWA case it was determined, under oath, that the $65m "dividend" Jetconnect paid to QF was in fact a sham arrangement where the $65m actually originated from QF. Where exactly does this $65m appear in QF's accounts?

2. According to AJ at the recent press club address, QF International has been a "poor business" for many years.

Qantas improved yield by 9 per cent, and increased capacity by 3.3 per cent demonstrating a strong revenue recovery across both international and domestic business.
Half Year Report Dec 2010

Strong increases in both yield and load factors on the Qantas international network resulted in an outstanding contribution to the overall Group performance.
Annual Report 2008

Qantas International experienced a strong year, with positive operating conditions expected to continue into 2008.
Annual Report 2007

Are these statements, as reported in legally enforceable documents, incorrect? Why has QF failed to report the state of QF Int to shareholders for such a long time? If these statements are correct, how is it possible that AJ has only become aware of the dire circumstances that QF International finds itself in such a short time frame?

3. Depreciation : Jetstar $17m, Virgin $203m. Virgin's fleet is slightly larger than Jetstar's.

[Mstr Caution]

http://www.iasc.gov.au/applications/files/4637.pdf

And I'm sure all are aware J* have their own corporate, Government & Industry Affairs department.

Provided by Qantas at $0 cost of course.

[Crusty Demon]

Careful people. Touchy subject at the moment and the big Q are ready to hang anyone they can who touches the QF/JQ accountancy subject. Ask people who have done EP's recently. It seems they are scared of too many questions being asked.

C'mon, us idiots are paid to fly (and maintain) the planes, not question management ethics.

It seems there is pressure mounting from a few angles. As a shareholder, I exercised my right to make a complaint to ASIC. It appears I am not the only one. I was informed that laws and precedents of recent times have made directors and managers subject to more liability if accusations are proven. The impression I got (implied without details) was that I was not the only complainant against this company.

By the way, anyone been reading about the implications of the new laws with regards to Shareholders voting on directors remuneration? Do a search and get educated, surely enough QF staff have shares to kick a goal on this one. It will take until late next year, but the posts have moved (in our favour), if we vote as a group against them.

[The The]

As I understand it, Jetstar lease the A330's from Qantas but Qantas retains the freight capacity/availability. For this, Qantas pay a fixed lease fee to Jetstar for the freight capacity whether a single item of freight is carried or not and regardless of whether or not Jetstar is using the A330 on a route that ever even carries freight.

Qantas then charge Qantas freight only for the actual freight carried.

I was once told the lease fee paid by Qantas to Jetstar for this freight capacity was so generous that it could never be recouped no matter how much freight was carried.

It was even suggested that Jetstar could operate the A330 to Japan with not a single passenger and still make a profit due to the freight charge to Qantas. I find that just a little too hard to believe though not beyond possibility.

[QAN_Shareholder]

Bazza,

Qan Shareholder, do you agree the highest paid airline CEO of the last decade made the correct choices with regard to the fleet?

Over a decade I think Dixon would have been some distance behind the highest paid airline CEO - check Delta for a start, I'm not defending his pay though it was bordering on criminal.

Can you tell me how much money some JQ330 Captains were paid in the last 12 months compared to QF ones? Also, some JQ 320 captains were paid a hell of a lot more than some 737 Captains.

Why 'some' captains? If you're going to do a comparison surely it is average that matters and from the airlines perspectiver per hour flown. I am confident JQ are well behind their QF counterparts.

Yet you hang onto the notion that us and the engineers are the entire and total cause of any woes QF faces. In your opinion, if we are the only problems, can you not see why things have reached the point where they are now?


I don't believe I have ever claimed pilots and engineers are 'the entire and total cause of any woes'. Actually I think it is only part of the problem. End of line carrier, competitors such as Emirates who can hire and fire at will, recruit globally and whose employees don't pay tax, Australian labour costs being generally higher than abroad particularly with current exchange rates, foreign airlines run for motives other than return to shareholders. There is a fairly long list of issues that makes operating certain international routes from Australia fairly unattractive.

[fabagnale]

First Point

What about the direct competition between 2 companies within the same group?
From the Jetstar website as of 27 July 2011.(Under Facts & Stats - My bolding).
“The Jetstar Group is part of the Qantas Group’s two-brand growth strategy, which sees Qantas focus on the premium and business market and Jetstar focusing on leisure travel markets.”

Then, further down: "Jetstar customers only pay for what they need. Customers can choose between two types of fares – Economy or Business (on selected international flights)"

Second point.

What about the intangible cost of not concentrating on overall growth of the Qantas Group, whilst focusing on the Jetstar “growth” and “opportunities”? Total revenues for Qantas now down to 2006 levels…

[emal140]

Fedsec
Every day at Terminal two in SYD a Qantas dieselfuel truck uns around filling up JQ ground eqipment. Never have I seen the bowser operator take down equipment numbers or litres dispensed. Unless the bowser operator writes down a total fuel figure for the entire terminal euipment (who owns the equipment??) I do not think the fuel is accounted for.


Another is the QF aircraft tooling being 'sold' or 'transferred' to JQ. Remember last PIA when it was declared that aircraft tooling belongs to Qantas NOT Qantas Engineering
E

[WheelsandBrakes]

-What are J* charged for using QF aerobridges?
-When QF lames sent for training on A320, who picks up the bill for their accom, expenses etc - Qf or J*?
-The practice of QF employees changing into J* uniform for J* transit still happening. Do J* get charged for this use of QF employees? Who is paying for their J* uniforms, and the drycleaning of these uniforms?
-Do J* pay for their check-in kiosks and their upkeep within QF airport areas?
-Do J* actually pay a fee for using QF baggage system - ie. that gets the bag from check-in to the baggage container - at airports where they piggyback off QF infrastructure?
-Who picked up the tab for getting the J* Vietnam execs out of jail and back to Oz?

[emal140]

Crusty Demon, can you expand on the new renumeration laws? Mu understanding was that shareholders can vote on renumeration requirements, but companies are not obliged to act on shareholder opinion

E

[Slippery_Pete]

AFAIK Jetstar doesn't own any tugs at Sydney International or any other International terminal. How much does QF charge for tug services?

I would suggest the majority of tugging is done by the board themselves.

And I bet if there's an accident with Mrs. Palmer, they send the dry cleaning bill to Qantas International.

[ejectx3]

Careful people. Touchy subject at the moment and the big Q are ready to hang anyone they can who touches the QF/JQ accountancy subject. Ask people who have done EP's recently. It seems they are scared of too many questions being asked.



What rules prevent us from discussing amongst our peers the sham that is qf/Jetstar accounting?

[Keg]

Eject, it was a discussion relating to the alleged financial performance of QF vs J* that led to the situation discussed in this thread. (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/458454-standing-down-captain.html) I think Crusty's point is to be careful who you discuss these things with as some are obviously feeling the pressure of having crew laugh in their faces when they try to spin the propaganda.

[schmackos]

REF: "Lateline ABC TV 27/7/11" - story about Jet* exposing lack of T&C's for Thai F/A's and general lack of overall duty limits for cabin crew incl. Oz based.

One of Jet*'s written responses was that they "had invested heavily in fatigue management systems".

Recently in EP's, the QF facilitator, whilst explaining how the newly introduced QF Fatigue Management System operates, clearly stated that neither Jet* or VB have this type of system in place and that it will be a CASA requirement.

QN: "How much have JQ contributed towards the development of QF fatigue management system or have they developed their own system and if so what stage of development is it at?"

Good luck

[Capt_SNAFU]

Who pays regulatory affairs bills and airservices charges?

Given that QF tech did a huge amount of work on RNP approaches (RNP-AR) how much did QF charge J* for that package. No doubt J* did all the leg work on Low Vis requirements (approvals, manuals etc) and ETOPS as well.

Also hear that Athens and Rome have just turned back up as mains for QF flights to Europe. I wonder who wears the bill for re-approval of such seeing as though it will be J* who is using them.

Speaking of managers. Who paid the wages of the QF guys who have gone to Jet connect and Jetstar pacific?

Who paid for the training of all the Jetconnect crews on the 737NG? Was it Jetconnect or QF?

[ejectx3]

Yeah thanks keg I realise that. Just wondering what there is to be wary of? What fam or otherwise rule is there that prevents free speech?

[xer]

Jetstar flight broke down at Sydney. Jetstar passengers sent to Qantas terminal ticket sales to receive free tickets to Destination on QF. Did jetstar pay QF for the seats?

Also Jetstar crew at QF security days. Is that cost being passed on to Jetstar?

[tyga]

Small thread drift:

QAN Shareholder, OK, I'll bite.

"If you really want to understand the source of the problems with Qantas international you could request the profitability for each of the international routes for the last few years. This is fraught with danger though since I suspect it would become apparent that there are routes that haven't made a profit for years and have no prospect of making an acceptable return anytime soon hence either routes or costs need to be cut. It is far easier to remain in ignorance and keep pretending that management are evil and corrupt."

I think it has already been pointed out to you that due to monumental cock ups in fleet decision by current and previous management and further monumental cock ups in the deploying of currently arriving new fleet, and future arrivals of new fleet types is partly to blame for this - directly attributable to senior management. Furthermore lets compare apples with apples.

A QF A330 and a JQ A330 theoretically have exactly the same fixed costs. Fuel, maintenance, landing charges, airways fees etc - I could go on. The only major variables are catering, crew costs and ancillary options able to be purchased. If we look specifically at crewing costs on board the aircraft - pilots in particular - they usually make up around 3 - 4% of the ticket price. If AJ states that QF pilots do actually cost 40% more than their JQ counterparts (which I think you will find is a major lie - or perhaps its an AJ calculator problem), then another 1.6% of the ticket price could be attributable by crew. This would make absolutley bugger all difference in the grand scheme of things. Then if BB and AJ say that if JQ crew would be paid QF rates, their airline model would go broke. They are pretty thin margins they are working on UNLESS, QF mainline is footing the bills. If the margins are running that thin that 1.6% makes or breaks the business, then I can hardly imagine that JQ are making their claimed 1st half profit of 143 Mil.

Now that you have a clearer picture, I'll reply to your statement. JQ aren't going to make returns on QF routes that it displaces QF from and in some cases will lose more money due to the Low Yield business model. Japan is a perfect example. QF fly full loads out of Narita but JQ doesn't come close. It is industry known that Japanese travel agents will boycott Jetstar due to its brand image from Nagoya etc and bus/train/ internal flight passengers to Narita to fly QF. One could argue that the "evil and corrupt" management that you are referring to are not at all interested in running a successful airline but would rather turn QF into a travel agency. I'm tipping that they have no idea how to run a successful premium carrier even though they had the advantage of having a multi billion dollar brand name handed to them on a plate! They obviously come from the philosophy of how to make a small fortune in aviation is start with a large one.

I'd be interested to hear what you think is going to happen with AJ and BB planting $500 mil into JQ Asia in Singapore when SQ are going to retaliate with their own LCC. Do you really think that SQ are going to let them get away with pushing in on their turf? I'm sure they've been wined and dined and told "we look forward to you investing here" but I'd say your going to see $500 mil flushed down the Singapore sewer - along with the ensuing blood bath. LCC are a cut throat industry and AJ has already been stabbed in the back by his "mate" Fernandes. Where do you think that $500 mil will be sourced?

The fact of the matter is that AJ and his band of merry men's story is changing faster than Paris Hiltons boyfriends and if you truly believe the myopic spin he keeps putting out then I guess you'd also be happy with the current share price, the direction its been taking since AJ took the helm and lack of dividends. I have QF shares and I'm bloody appalled!

Rant over.

So back to topic:

QF mainline made a first half profit of $165 mil, JQ made an 18% increase to $143 mil. Virgin made $72 mil and JB stated that the leisure market is badly performing but the business market is improving. This all sourced from Steve Creedy and the Australian newspaper. 17th Feb 2011.
If this is the case, how did QF lose more than $365 mil in 5 months, and how did JQ make double what virgin made if the leisure conditions were so bad as stated in the media? (see bad wx, floods affecting tourist destinations served by VB and JQ)

Why did QF shut down the centre of service excellence for Rollers (engine shop) when they now can't even get access to Asian facilities to get what one could consider essential modifications to the compressors? What cost can you attribute to the damage this has caused to the brand (apart from AJ opening his mouth) and why revenue stream wasn't sort when it was open for maintenance for other airlines?

[tyga]

What is Dixon's role and ownership in regard to Aircraft Leasing companies and Contract Cabin Crew companies? Was this occurring while he was still CEO of QF? Is he contracting Cabin Crew to Qantas and Leasing Aircraft to Qantas at present?

[Sunfish]

QAN Shareholder:

I'm assuming you're serious here and not just grandstanding but what you are looking for is implausible. For an organisation as complex as Qantas it would take a qualified accountant with full access to all documents and finance staff weeks to get to the stage where they understand how it all operates. From your posts here it is apparent that you know as much about accounting and finance as I do about fixing planes hence 'the full picture' will always remain elusive.

If you really want to understand the source of the problems with Qantas international you could request the profitability for each of the international routes for the last few years. This is fraught with danger though since I suspect it would become apparent that there are routes that haven't made a profit for years and have no prospect of making an acceptable return anytime soon hence either routes or costs need to be cut. It is far easier to remain in ignorance and keep pretending that management are evil and corrupt.


Nice try, troll.

Unfortunately you are simply wrong and/or deliberately spreading disinformation. The basic mechanics of internal cost allocations between business units that the boys are talking about here are very easy, obvious and transparent. They have every right to ask questions and the answers they requested are easy to provide, since the account coding system will tell them the answers.

This is accounting 101, not rocket science and certainly not the "metaphysics" some forms of cost allocation involve. Its straight forward business costing that is applicable to any business, not just an airline.

Where it can get highly technical is where we start talking about costs charged per man hour/ block hour/ engine hour/ cycle, and how these are constructed, however we are nowhere near that subject yet.

What the boys have already found, in my opinion, is enough smoke and sparks to suggest that there really is a fire burning in the Qantas Accounting Department.

Any competent accountant should be able to produce a simple CONTRIBUTION ANALYSIS* in less than a week that will indicate the extent of the issue, or not. Translation: It ain't "too hard" at this level, but nice try.

As i have stated multiple times before, what is lacking in Australia is the independent forensic airline accounting skills to analyse and perhaps prosecute Qantas for predatory pricing under the Trade Practices Act, even if successive governments weren't so supine as to want to try. Don't expect the big accounting firms to produce "independent" analysis either - they won't, if they ever want Qantas business again.








* Contribution analysis = Total Revenue minus total direct costs of the respective operations (fuel, pilots and CC wages), maybe notional line maintenance hourly rate, but that would be the same for both Jetstar and Qantas). This figure excludes all overheads, so this is before the bean counters get to start fiddling and massaging the numbers.

[Bazzamundi]

What about the big surpluss of pilots as flying is transferred to JQ? Surely paying them to fly those aeroplanes would be cheaper than having them sit around doing nothing.

Qan Shareholder, the comparison of 'some' Captains is a tactic your mob has started using in the media quite liberally. I have flown nearly max hours in the last 12 months, and get paid not a lot more than JQ 330 Captains who do not fly any more.

But that sort of truth doesn't suit the company agenda. As for pilots sitting around being paid to do nothing, of course smart management have nothing to do with that. Surely they could utilise their resources a lot better.

How much has QF spent on its industrial relations agenda? They could have saved millions for shareholders by being smart and working with people rather than openly against them.

[Bazzamundi]

Just done a quick google search with regard to remuneration laws. It seems that the new rules that came into effect on the 1st of July this year could have some bearing if every staff member who holds shares votes against them two separate times. If this happens, the board gets spilled:

Shareholder (http://www.mondaq.com/australia/x/138818/Shareholders+tighten+grip+on+the+purse+strings+new+rules+on+ executive+remuneration+commence)

Could be worth a bit more research and reading. 25% of the total people who cast votes is the magic number, not 25% of the total shares.

[seat1A]

Sorry if this has been posted previously but I would like to know how the 'leasing arrangements' work with regards to some Jetstar A320s. One example I found is VH-VGD which is an A320 operated by Jetstar as the 'Registered Operator' however, Qantas is the 'Registration Holder'. I know there are at least four more A320s that were delivered late in 2010 but cannot find the details. You can search the CASA database here:

Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Search CASA's aircraft register (http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:PWA::pc=PC_90127)

I would like to see this question answered by AJ or BB . If given the chance I would ask them myself. Its time to tell the truth boys!!!!!

Yeah I know, tell him he's dreamin........

Ex Qantas A330s VH-EBA etc also display as registered to Qantas also but the company name is QANTAS EBA G.I.E. Its the same for VH-EBB but the company name is QANTAS EBB G.I.E. The list goes on.

[Capt Kremin]

Seat 1a there are 6 A320 owned by QF and leased to Jetstar. Just do a search on that link for A320s with QF as the owner and JQ as the operator.

[seat1A]

Thanks Capt K. Cheers

[Jackneville]

There is a person out there who is highly respected by all who know him. A man of great integrity, a devout Christian, he resigned a while back due to "personal/health" reasons but these must have been resolved as he was working again within a few months. If, and it is a very big if, he were ever compelled to say what he knows, I reckon the whole ediface will fall down..........I'd say he has quite a story to tell.

['holic]

Seat 1A,
The question you ask about QF leasing aircraft to JQ becomes even more interesting if you read this article.
Subleases to sister help struggling Jetstar Asia post $4.5m profit (http://www.businessday.com.au/business/subleases-to-sister-help-struggling-jetstar-asia-post-45m-profit-20090118-7jwp.html)
According to the article, a precedent may have already been set where aircraft are cross leased within the group at other than market rates.



Jetstar Asia failed to respond to the Herald over the weekend on speculation that several of its senior managers, including its chief financial officer, had resigned. Nor would the airline's Singapore management comment on suspicions its maiden profit had been propped up through its relationship with its Australian sister airline, Jetstar, to which it subleases three of its 10 Airbus A320s.

The accounts show Jetstar Asia earned $S21.8 million in "sublease" revenue in the 12 months, against $S12.5 million the previous year. It has four jets leased out altogether.

Jetstar Asia did not explain why its subleasing revenue rose the same year it transferred the three jets it had leased to the Turkish airline AtlasJet to the Australian Jetstar. Jetstar took delivery of the aircraft in December 2007.

A spokesman for Jetstar Australia, Simon Westaway, said the jets were leased at a "commercial" rate.
The figures suggest the Singaporean airline is possibly being subsidised by the subleasing of its three A320s to the Australian franchise at a higher rate.Also, from the same article :
Qantas also acknowledges in its annual report that it "has seconded employees and provided various support services" to the airline.Who paid for the seconded employees' salaries and support services?

[mmciau]

And the real worry is if the Australian Taxation Office (ATO) ever gets wind that the Company(s) Taxation Returns do not accurately show correct, corroborated Income and Expenditure for each Legal Entity and it follows, the correct level of Taxation assessed for each Legal Entity.

Mike

[my oleo is extended]

Do you not agree that QF operates the oldest and most fuel inefficient fleet compared to our competitors? Can you tell me the fuel burn of a 777 versus a 747 on the routes we operate? Even though some aircraft are depreciated to an extent, as they age the reliability and maintenance expenses offset the advantages.
The Dugong is not old, yet it is 'rumoured' that once you crunch the numbers it it is less profitable to the group running this a/c than using one of the old 747's on the same route. Nice one.
What is Dixon's role and ownership in regard to Aircraft Leasing companies and Contract Cabin Crew companies? Was this occurring while he was still CEO of QF? Is he contracting Cabin Crew to Qantas and Leasing Aircraft to Qantas at present?
Now we are getting down to the nuts and bolts. May the digging continue.
There is a person out there who is highly respected by all who know him. A man of great integrity, a devout Christian, he resigned a while back due to "personal/health" reasons but these must have been resolved as he was working again within a few months. If, and it is a very big if, he were ever compelled to say what he knows, I reckon the whole ediface would fall down..........I'd say he has quite a story tell.
Agreed. He was the only senior person with an ounce of integrity.

[Sunfish]

I would not make allegations of illegality if I were you. I'm sure QF has reams of legal opinions advising that everything is fair and above board.

..Whether QF complies with the ASX listing rules might be another matter, but I wouldn't know.

I think QF is also counting on the fact that there is no independent forensic legal and accounting expertise in Australia that can authoritatively analyse QF, as a certain poster has recently commented.

... I've been expecting the "It's complicated" assertion for some time. I wasn't disappointed.

[AFRO]

Is it true AJ and GD still have lunch every week?

[Captain Peacock]

A little bit closer to home: Qantas International is making a loss but Qantas Domestic is profitable.

Who pays for the following, "QF International" or "QF Domestic"

- Flight Despatch
- Integtrated Operations Centre
- Simulators
- the gate house at the SYD Jetbase
- Yield Management
- Load Control
- Port Control
- The Chief Pilot's wages
Etc, etc.

[hotnhigh]

When's the next board meeting?

Alan, why did you bring the packed bag?

[lemod]

Steve, once you have put the list together it may be of interest to Steve Cannane of Lateline. His investigative reporting of the Jetstar Flight Attendant fatighe issue was very thorough and has had BB on the back foot in the media this morning. He seemed to have trouble with his lies when Lateline had copies of individuals incident reports on this issue.

A simple media friendly story of "Qantas' death in Australia based on a lie" along with some supporting evidence may interest them.

[the_company_spy]

Apparently punters who purchase a star class ticket on J* international are entitled access to the Qf business class lounge. If that is the case, how much does j* pay? Does Qf bear the cost for them?

[my oleo is extended]

Is it true AJ and GD still have lunch every week?
I would say it is highly probable. However, in the scheme of things, business and/or friendship meetings are the order of the day and won't create any signifcant scrutiny.
Mind you, nothing like the occasional battered sav for lunch !

I would not make allegations of illegality if I were you. I'm sure QF has reams of legal opinions advising that everything is fair and above board.
Agreed. We need to keep this thread on track, raise simple informative and reasonable questions without any overtone or impropriety or any wrongdoing regardless of personal opinion. Simple questions seeking simple answers to QF's business structure.

[regitaekilthgiwt]

This first one is 100% fact, Steve PM me for a copy of the INTAM if you want proof. It was a slightly unusual situation but it shows the mindset of management:

After the Christchurch earthquake, CHC fuel rationing was instigated at 40% of normal uplift levels. The following instruction was given to the respective international arms:


QF 767 and 747 to carry return fuel on all services into CHC.


JQ International to minimise fuel uplift on all services into CHC.


So there it is, why one rule for one part of the airline and another for the other? :=


Other ideas in answer to your opening question:

In a domestic terminal such as Melbourne where Jetstar share the use of the departure gates, who pays for the security screening of the passengers and crew? And as asked before, do Jetstar pay for the check in and gate space at the terminal?

and

With regards to Express Freighters Australia. How can management justify employing 4 pilots to do 2 pilots jobs. i.e. the EFA767. There are 767 pilots doing very low hours in mainline being paid a minimum guaranteed wage (paid for work that they do not do as there is no work to do!). These pilots could have flown the freighter at little or no extra cost because as I mentioned they are being paid anyway for hours not flown. It's not that difficult to conclude that no matter how cheap the EFA pilots are, employing 2 pilots to do a flight when there were already 2 pilots available to do it and having a net of 4 pilots employed for the flight makes no sense at all. Then Joyce has the gall to turn around and have a go at Qf International for being inefficient. Give me a break.
As an aside, when Joyce was asked in a meeting as to why the above was so, his answer was that ‘they needed to see if EFA could survive as a separate entity’. Is he serious? If the QF accountants cannot figure that out without having to waste money on extra crews than this airline is in even more trouble that we thought and a thorough review of the company’s accounts is in order (as if it wasn’t anyway!).



All the best and stay united everyone.

[JDI]

Heard a rumor that Qantas is paying Jetstar $6,000 a night for carrying Freight, but........ No freight is actually carried??? ( am told this is ex Manila)

Anyone else heard or can confirm or deny this???

[2BNASty]

Spoke to QF hosty. Her brother a Jet* NZ cadet. Flown by company on day 1 to NZ to open bank account. 5 hours later back in Melbourne residing at what was previously Hilton Airport Hotel. Lives there permanently. Earns NZ wage, no super etc etc. Can't break bond or massive financial disadvantage.
Q. How is it legal?
Q. Who actually pays him? Where is his remuneration deposited?
Q. Where does he fly to?
millions of questions, HOW HOW HOW....?

btw. obviously he was earning way less than her. not great if you know what they earn.:ooh:

2B

[Going Boeing]

I hope that Geoffrey Thomas reads this thread, takes notes and then proceeds to ask Joyce and Buchanan for some quantative answers.

[600ft-lb]

Spoke to QF hosty. Her brother a Jet* NZ cadet. Flown by company on day 1 to NZ to open bank account. 5 hours later back in Melbourne residing at what was previously Hilton Airport Hotel. Lives there permanently. Earns NZ wage, no super etc etc. Can't break bond or massive financial disadvantage.
Q. How is it legal?
Q. Who actually pays him? Where is his remuneration deposited?
Q. Where does he fly to?
millions of questions, HOW HOW HOW....?

Indentured slavery, so it seems. But he did sign up, now he has to live with it.

[Coppabella]

2008 Jetconnect under the ex Australian Airlines General Manager and ex Australian Airlines Chief Pilot inherits the Qantas sweet of manuals and training system for zero outlay.
I know Qantas mainline paid for this.

[QFdude]

BARBARA MILLER: Senator Nick Xenophon says Qantas owns a significant part, 37 per cent of Tour East Thailand, that is sort of pretending that this is a company at arm's length when in actual fact it's an integral part of the group.

BRUCE BUCHANAN: I think that's completely false. And you know their ownership through the relationship with HTT is part of the wholesale structure that they use to provide a land content for the business.

And Tour East business has expanded into some of these other areas. It's not part of the Qantas Group and Qantas Group has a minority interest in that business.

BARBARA MILLER: Thirty seven per cent's quite a large stake.

BRUCE BUCHANAN: It's still a minority interest. They can't call the shots in that business.

So is J* Asia and Pacific part of the Qantas Group?

and

Who "calls the shots"?

[1A_Please]

I hope that Geoffrey Thomas reads this thread, takes notes and then proceeds to ask Joyce and Buchanan for some quantative answers.

I can safely say that if anyone asks difficult questions of QF Management at the AGM it won't be G Thomas!!

[Mstr Caution]

Contact Qantas | Contact Centres and Office Contacts (http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/contacts-telephone-sales/global/en)

Qantas Bangkok Office IS Tour East Thailand.

Arms length? Minority Interest?

So the Jetstar Flight Attendant service provider is also the Qantas Office.

[theheadmaster]

Who is paying for the 10 new F100s for Network in WA?

[Garry1946]

Any Qantas Club member who is travelling on a Jetstar flight has use of the Qantas Club. Does this cost get billed to Jetstar? Answer no!!!

[my oleo is extended]

Is Qantas actually gifting Jetstar money??? Perhaps we are all blinded ? Perhaps QF is actually a generous philanthropist and is merely donating to a needy endeavor ?

I hope that Geoffrey Thomas reads this thread, takes notes and then proceeds to ask Joyce and Buchanan for some quantative answers. Not likely. You need a reporter who is unbiased and actually understands his subject matter ! Now, Pheelan is another story (pardon the pun), he is the man that you want doing the reporting.

[Budfox]

Spoke to QF hosty. Her brother a Jet* NZ cadet. Flown by company on day 1 to NZ to open bank account. 5 hours later back in Melbourne residing at what was previously Hilton Airport Hotel. Lives there permanently. Earns NZ wage, no super etc etc. Can't break bond or massive financial disadvantage

So which group is picking up the bill for this young lad???
Jetstar or Qantas?
Anyone able to go detective mode and get an invoice from the Hotel that they send to either of those two?
Going through this list is like watching how ENRON unfolded :eek:
Too many shady practices and dodgy accountants who were on the payrolls :}

[havick]

surely all these allegations would be traceable given the electronic nature accounting software, emails etc etc... I guess it's a good things that burn bags only work with hard copies?

Under what circumstances would actually warrant some form of investigation that results in some accountablity/action if all this was true? Sunfish you seem to be the one with the quals that's able to answer that question.

[V-Jet]

Budfox,
I have LONG seen parallels between Enron and QF. I don't know a lot about QF management, but I work for them and I would kid myself I know a fair bit about Enron.

I would urge anyone to consider seriously the points you raise.

And I can't help myself with the handle..

"Blue Horseshoe LOVES Jet/Bluestar airlines"

'Use the offshore accounts, spread it round and nothing will get noticed. But you DO realise, if anything happens, you are totally on your own'....

etc etc...

[tyga]

QAN Shareholder

If you really want to understand the source of the problems with Qantas international you could request the profitability for each of the international routes for the last few years. This is fraught with danger though since I suspect it would become apparent that there are routes that haven't made a profit for years and have no prospect of making an acceptable return anytime soon hence either routes or costs need to be cut. It is far easier to remain in ignorance and keep pretending that management are evil and corrupt.

I think it has already been pointed out to you that due to monumental cock ups in fleet decision by current and previous management and further monumental cock ups in the deploying of currently arriving new fleet, and future arrivals of new fleet types is partly to blame for this - directly attributable to senior management. Furthermore lets compare apples with apples.

A QF A330 and a JQ A330 theoretically have exactly the same fixed costs. Fuel, maintenance, landing charges, airways fees etc - I could go on. The only major variables are catering, crew costs and ancillary options . If we look specifically at crewing costs on board the aircraft - pilots in particular - they usually make up around 3 - 4% of the ticket price. If AJ states that QF pilots do actually cost 40% more than their JQ counterparts (which I think you will find is a major lie - or perhaps its an AJ calculator problem), then another 1.6% of the ticket price could be attributable by crew. This would make absolutely bugger all difference in the grand scheme of things. Then if BB and AJ say that if JQ crew would be paid QF rates, their airline model would go broke. They are pretty thin margins they are working on UNLESS, QF mainline is footing the bills. If the margins are running that thin that 1.6% makes or breaks the business, then I can hardly imagine that JQ are making their claimed 1st half profit of $143 Mil.

Now that you have a clearer picture, I'll reply to your statement. JQ aren't going to make returns on QF routes that it displaces QF from and in some cases will lose more money due to the low yield business model. Japan is a perfect example. QF fly full loads out of Narita but JQ doesn't come close. It is industry known that Japanese travel agents will boycott Jetstar due to its brand image from Nagoya etc and bus/train/ internal flight passengers to Narita to fly QF. One could argue that the "evil and corrupt" management that you are referring to are not at all interested in running a successful airline but would rather turn QF into a travel agency. I'm tipping that they have no idea how to run a successful premium carrier even though they had the advantage of having a multi billion dollar brand name handed to them on a plate! They obviously come from the philosophy of how to make a small fortune in aviation is start with a large one.

I'd be interested to hear what you think is going to happen with AJ and BB planting $500 mil into JQ Asia in Singapore when SQ are going to retaliate with their own LCC. Do you really think that SQ are going to let them get away with pushing in on their turf? I'm sure they've been wined and dined and told "we look forward to you investing here" but I'd say your going to see $500 mil flushed down the Singapore sewer - along with the ensuing blood bath. LCC are a cut throat industry and AJ has already been stabbed in the back by his CEO "mate" over at Air Asia . Where do you think that $500 mil will be sourced?

The fact of the matter is that AJ and his band of merry men's story is changing faster than Paris Hiltons boyfriends and if you truly believe the myopic spin he keeps putting out then I guess you'd also be happy with the current share price, the direction its been taking since AJ took the helm and lack of dividends. I have QF shares and I'm bloody appalled!

So back to topic:

QF mainline made a first half profit of $165 mil, JQ made an 18% increase to $143 mil. Virgin made $72 mil and JB stated that the leisure market is badly performing but the business market is improving. This all sourced from Australian newspaper. 17th Feb 2011.
If this is the case, how did QF lose more than $365 mil in 5 months, and how did JQ make double what virgin made if the leisure conditions were so bad as publicly stated in the media? (see bad wx, floods affecting tourist destinations served by VB and JQ)

Why did QF shut down the centre of service excellence for Rollers (engine shop) when they now can't even get access to Asian facilities to get what one could consider essential modifications to the compressors which if not done compromise safety? What cost can you attribute to the damage this has caused to the brand (apart from AJ opening his mouth) and why revenue stream wasn't sort when it was open for maintenance for other airlines?

['holic]

Hey Steve, how'd it go today? Specific answers not necessary, just wanted to know if any of the questions you had made them squirm? :E

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

G'day all,

Left home (Mel) at 5, long day in FWA (Syd) and back home at 7. I've watched the number of posts on this thread climb all day and dreading the task of reading them all but so looking forward to it. Will have a good look tomorrow. Keep adding or sending me pm's, the questions should all have to be answered.

cheers
Steve

[tyga]

Couple more:

QF mainline made a first half profit of $165 mil, JQ made an 18% increase to $143 mil. Virgin made $72 mil and JB stated that the leisure market is badly performing but the business market is improving. This all sourced from Australian newspaper. 17th Feb 2011.
If this is the case, how did QF lose more than $365 mil in 5 months, and how did JQ make double what virgin made if the leisure conditions were so bad as publicly stated in the media? (see bad wx, floods affecting tourist destinations served by VB and JQ)

Why did QF shut down the centre of service excellence for Rollers (engine shop) when they now can't even get access to Asian facilities to get what one could consider essential modifications to the compressors which if not done compromise safety? What cost can you attribute to the damage this has caused to the brand (apart from AJ opening his mouth) and why revenue stream wasn't sort when it was open for maintenance for other airlines?

[SkyScanner]

Lyell Strambi is quoted as saying "I have explored on numerous occasions making a low cost carrier work and the numbers just didn't add up".... So how is Jetstar working Lyell?

[QAN_Shareholder]

Sunfish

Unfortunately you are simply wrong and/or deliberately spreading disinformation. The basic mechanics of internal cost allocations between business units that the boys are talking about here are very easy, obvious and transparent. They have every right to ask questions and the answers they requested are easy to provide, since the account coding system will tell them the answers.

This is accounting 101, not rocket science and certainly not the "metaphysics" some forms of cost allocation involve. Its straight forward business costing that is applicable to any business, not just an airline.

Where it can get highly technical is where we start talking about costs charged per man hour/ block hour/ engine hour/ cycle, and how these are constructed, however we are nowhere near that subject yet.

What the boys have already found, in my opinion, is enough smoke and sparks to suggest that there really is a fire burning in the Qantas Accounting Department.

Any competent accountant should be able to produce a simple CONTRIBUTION ANALYSIS* in less than a week that will indicate the extent of the issue, or not. Translation: It ain't "too hard" at this level, but nice try.

As i have stated multiple times before, what is lacking in Australia is the independent forensic airline accounting skills to analyse and perhaps prosecute Qantas for predatory pricing under the Trade Practices Act, even if successive governments weren't so supine as to want to try. Don't expect the big accounting firms to produce "independent" analysis either - they won't, if they ever want Qantas business again.



And this is the view of someone who it seems has never had to do an exercise like this. Your 'contribution analysis' would fall down straight away since indirect costs are very different between a largely domestic LCC and an international full service airline - IT systems, lounges, airport charges for example are all significantly lower for a LCC. Also the analysis would all be based on the underlying data being accurate which you claim it isn't.

Auditing major organisations is no simple task. The external audit gives a feel for how complex this is, from the annual report the cost last year was $3m which I guess involves about 20 people for around 3 months or about 5 man years work. The idea that one person could conclude on accuracy of cost allocation in a week is nonsense.

[tyga]

QAN Shareholder, I believe the ALEA requested these long posts be put on this thread but seeing as you've started it:


If you really want to understand the source of the problems with Qantas international you could request the profitability for each of the international routes for the last few years. This is fraught with danger though since I suspect it would become apparent that there are routes that haven't made a profit for years and have no prospect of making an acceptable return anytime soon hence either routes or costs need to be cut. It is far easier to remain in ignorance and keep pretending that management are evil and corrupt.

I think it has already been pointed out to you that due to monumental cock ups in fleet decision by current and previous management and further monumental cock ups in the deploying of currently arriving new fleet, and future arrivals of new fleet types is partly to blame for this - directly attributable to senior management. Furthermore lets compare apples with apples.

A QF A330 and a JQ A330 theoretically have exactly the same fixed costs. Fuel, maintenance, landing charges, airways fees etc - I could go on. The only major variables are catering, crew costs and ancillary options . If we look specifically at crewing costs on board the aircraft - pilots in particular - they usually make up around 3 - 4% of the ticket price. If AJ states that QF pilots do actually cost 40% more than their JQ counterparts (which I think you will find is a major lie - or perhaps its an AJ calculator problem), then another 1.6% of the ticket price could be attributable by crew. This would make absolutely bugger all difference in the grand scheme of things. Then if BB and AJ say that if JQ crew would be paid QF rates, their airline model would go broke. They are pretty thin margins they are working on UNLESS, QF mainline is footing the bills. If the margins are running that thin that 1.6% makes or breaks the business, then I can hardly imagine that JQ are making their claimed 1st half profit of $143 Mil.

Now that you have a clearer picture, I'll reply to your statement. JQ aren't going to make returns on QF routes that it displaces QF from and in some cases will lose more money due to the low yield business model. Japan is a perfect example. QF fly full loads out of Narita but JQ doesn't come close. It is industry known that Japanese travel agents will boycott Jetstar due to its brand image from Nagoya etc and bus/train/ internal flight passengers to Narita to fly QF. One could argue that the "evil and corrupt" management that you are referring to are not at all interested in running a successful airline but would rather turn QF into a travel agency. I'm tipping that they have no idea how to run a successful premium carrier even though they had the advantage of having a multi billion dollar brand name handed to them on a plate! They obviously come from the philosophy of how to make a small fortune in aviation is start with a large one.

I'd be interested to hear what you think is going to happen with AJ and BB planting $500 mil into JQ Asia in Singapore when SQ are going to retaliate with their own LCC. Do you really think that SQ are going to let them get away with pushing in on their turf? I'm sure they've been wined and dined and told "we look forward to you investing here" but I'd say your going to see $500 mil flushed down the Singapore sewer - along with the ensuing blood bath. LCC are a cut throat industry and AJ has already been stabbed in the back by his CEO "mate" over at Air Asia . Where do you think that $500 mil will be sourced?

The fact of the matter is that AJ and his band of merry men's story is changing faster than Paris Hiltons boyfriends and if you truly believe the myopic spin that he, BB and OW keeps putting out then I guess you'd also be happy with the current share price, the direction its been taking since AJ took the helm and lack of dividends. I have QF shares and I'm bloody appalled!

[600ft-lb]

Except this LCC's 'Business' class passenger have access to the Qantas Club. This LCC competes directly, landing at the same airport, using the same terminals as Qantas.

If it were purely a tiger model with its own clapped out tin shed terminal or common user / 2nd tier city airport terminals maybe that argument would stack.

As you've seen in this thread. Dozens of cases that people know about that insinuate that this LCC is getting a little bit more then a guiding hand in its growth.

Why couldn't tiger grow beyond a dozen aircraft in the same market Jetstar has managed to grow exponentially in 5 years ? Tiger has nowhere near the infrastructure as Jetstar. Jetstar has its own heavy maintenance facility!(good on em for that at least). No way in hell is Tiger's cost base higher then Jetstars. The numbers don't stack at Tiger, it's barely breaking even, its pulled out of routes, its parent has distanced itself from the OZ operation.

[Sunfish]

QAN Shareholder:

And this is the view of someone who it seems has never had to do an exercise like this. Your 'contribution analysis' would fall down straight away since indirect costs are very different between a largely domestic LCC and an international full service airline - IT systems, lounges, airport charges for example are all significantly lower for a LCC. Also the analysis would all be based on the underlying data being accurate which you claim it isn't.

Auditing major organisations is no simple task. The external audit gives a feel for how complex this is, from the annual report the cost last year was $3m which I guess involves about 20 people for around 3 months or about 5 man years work. The idea that one person could conclude on accuracy of cost allocation in a week is nonsense.

Your true colours are showing.

1. I have done it, year ago, and i got caught in a blazing cross fire row between Brian Grey and Graeme McMahon as a result that almost got me fired.

2. The point of doing a contribution analysis is that INDIRECT COSTS ARE IRRELEVANT TO THE ANALYSIS - THAT IS WHY YOU DO THE EFFING THING!!!!!!

3. Don't try and use the "its complicated" defence - it isn't. You are talking bull****. The basics are simple and straight forward as the guys here have posted.

It only gets complicated when we want to calculate actual operating costs and make allocations of costs that are related to technical matters.

For example, tyre costs are related to number of wheels times number of cycles, not flying hours. Airframe costs are related to flying hours, etc, etc etc, - this is why I used the "metaphysics" quote. This stuff is can be argued about for hours - who pays for the fuel that goes into a Jetstar aircraft is not.

Same for pilots and cabin crew. Subtract costs of crew and fuel from revenue received and you get a contribution number. My guess would be that Qantas makes Twenty times the contribution that Jetstar makes (it is a guess). What then has to happen as ALEA Fed Sec has realised is how all that Qantas money is frittered away leaving Jetstar as the more profitable operation.

My instincts tell me that what is happening with Jetstar "Profits" is financial masturbation.

Real shareholders should be concerned.

[packrat]

I asked in this question in a specific thread but received little traction so I will ask it here
Who can I give my proxy to so that my meagre shareholding in Qantas and the voting rights attached will mean something?
If enough small shareholders provide their proxy to one individual then perhaps that individual will have more clout than many on their own.
Is this feasible?

[King William III]

I think it would be better if the entire QF workforce turned up at the AGM and voted these clowns out?!

[Capt Kremin]

From a post on Qrewroom,

every department,every operating entity in QF is assigned a Cost Centre number. What that means is if for example if you happen to be in Base Servicing and need a part then the LAME orders the said part number and books it out to CC01 ie Cost Centre 01.
Similarly, Phase Check, Wheels and Brakes, Hoses and Tubes etc etc all have different CC numbers.
When defunct AO transited thru Narita for example it was assigned a CC number. This allowed the company to bill, charge, man hours, ladders, oil dolley's,equipment, fuel etc to AO.
Guess what? - when J/S transits thru Narita it has no CC number,it just sorts of levitates thru like magic and pops out the other end in Sydney where the same thing happens.
:\:\:\

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I asked in this question in a specific thread but received little traction so I will ask it here
Who can I give my proxy to so that my meagre shareholding in Qantas and the voting rights attached will mean something?
If enough small shareholders provide their proxy to one individual then perhaps that individual will have more clout than many on their own.
Is this feasible?


I did see this post on other thread but think it may be a difficult process to have a win on. If your proxy was given to another employee, they would most likely double their voting power. If every employee gave their proxies to one person, that voting power would be less than 5% of the total.
By default the Board exercises any proxy that is not present at the meeting or pre-assigned to another. Their voting block would most likely total 90%.

I was at a AGM a few years back, the motion went up for Exec remuneration. There were about 500 people in attendance, not one voted in favour and nearly all voted against. Then the British Airways and other proxies went up on the display. Motion carried.

[packrat]

Thank you for the clarification.
I guess the only hope is that a large shareholder defects

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Except this LCC's 'Business' class passenger have access to the Qantas Club. This LCC competes directly, landing at the same airport, using the same terminals as Qantas.

I think I raised this elsewhere but I would bet anything you like that:

- JS pays nothing for FF points given on boganstarclass or the exyflexi tickets
- any redemption of FF points onto JS flights requires QF to pay the full fare ticket price to JS for the privlige.

Given that QF business travellers often use their points for 'leisure' destinations then this would be a massive cost to QF and income to JS. In the last few months I've spent over 150,000 QF flight earned points to go to Bali and MCY with the family where i'm forced to use JS.

UTR

[Animalclub]

BRUCE BUCHANAN: I think that's completely false. And you know their ownership through the relationship with HTT is part of the wholesale structure that they use to provide a land content for the business.

And Tour East business has expanded into some of these other areas. It's not part of the Qantas Group and Qantas Group has a minority interest in that business.

BARBARA MILLER: Thirty seven per cent's quite a large stake.

BRUCE BUCHANAN: It's still a minority interest. They can't call the shots in that business.

Way back in my TAA days TAA had a subsidiary AAT with Ken Grenda as Chairman. It had two General Managers (one Englishman and an American). The company eventually went out of business... even Ken resigned before it happened as no doubt he saw the writing on the wall.

This same American turned up as General Manager of Tour East in Asia (there were several companies based in different countries). This group of companies offered (sold) ground arrangements in their respective country and were controlled by Australian owners so is it true that just 37% is contolled by an Australian entity?

Is Tour East still operating in other Asian contries? Doing what?

Who or what is HTT?

[bgspilot]

Has anyone ever heard of Four Corners or 60 Minutes?

[The Green Goblin]

Has anyone ever heard of Four Corners or 60 Minutes?

Yep...

Four corners is funded by the ABC.

The ABC is funded by the government.

How much money does 'the group' contribute to political re/elections? How much do lobbyists wine and dine our elected officials? What is the chairman's lounge membership worth these days?

60 mins?

Channel 9.

How much does 'the group' spend with channel 9 in advertising? I'm sure channel 7 would love all that revenue if channel 9 don't tow the line.

It's a lucky country we live in isn't it? :D

[Budfox]

"Blue Horseshoe LOVES Jet/Bluestar airlines"

Except in this case its HATES instead of LOVES ;)

Be safe. Hope you arent affected in your job post 24th Aug.:(

Just on a final note. Mrs Fox who works for a fairly largish US medical company are reviewing their corporate account with Qantas as they too are becoming disgruntled. They only use Qantas, not Jetstar. They want the most safest airline with the best track record cause they have many valuable and worthy employees.
Her direct boss always goes first class everywhere so money is not even a factor. Interesting times ahead.

[AlphaLord]

This from Letters in The Fin Review:
"The cost base comparison(quoted fromMerrill Lynch estimates)between Emirates and Qantas are grossly inaccurate.The net underlying costs in the audited annual reports for both airlines indicates a differential of 1.12 cents per available seat kilometre or 25%,not 228% as reported.It does not account for significant differences in network and fleet structure which flow through o demand for labour and shaping an airline's cost base.
Our 39000 staff are competitively remunerated.
Emirates incurs significant socialcosts to retain the high proportion of staff recruited on expatriate terms and conditions.On average every year,Emirates has to bear a total cost of more than $US500 million for expatriate employee benefits-including accommodation for employees and children's education for management,pilots,engineers and other staff--costs Qantas do not incur"
Andrew Parker
Emirates Airline.Dubai UAE

[Quill Shaft]

Xenophon bill would outlaw foreign cabin crews on domestic Australian flights

July 29, 2011 – 7:54 pm, by Ben Sandilands
Senator Nick Xenophon says he will seek to introduce a private member’s bill that would prevent airlines using foreign based cabin crews on domestic flights in Australia.

The bill follows the ABC TV Lateline program on Wednesday which showed that Jetstar was working Thai based cabin crew provided by Tour East Thailand (which is 37% owned by Qantas) on 20 hour shifts to provide it with cut price labor on domestic flights.

If it becomes law such a bill would frustrate a substantial plank of the Qantas plan to use lower priced regionally based foreign Qantas controlled carriers to reduce its exposure to its obligations to Australian taxation, superannuation and labor laws.

This is the media release:

Independent Senator for South Australia Nick Xenophon will introduce a Private Senator’s Bill that will force Australian airlines to provide the same flight and duty conditions for foreign crews as are currently given to Australian crews.

The move follows revelations that Jetstar’s Bangkok-based foreign crews regularly work on flights that travel from one Australian location to another, and that most passengers would believe are domestic flights.

Under their contracts, these crews also have no limit on the hours they could be expected to fly, and say they are regularly fatigued to a level that they believe puts passenger safety at risk.

“I don’t think a lot of people realise that the crew member on their flight from Brisbane to Cairns may actually be based in Bangkok, earning a base pay of less than $300 a month, and that they may have worked hours that Australian crews would not be allowed to,” Nick said.

The Bill would require Australian airlines to offer foreign-based crews the same flight and duty time limitations that are offered to Australian crews under their industrial agreements.
The Bill would also apply to international airlines in which an Australian airline owns more than a 20% stake.

“This is a basic issue of fairness and safety,” Nick said. “We shouldn’t have an underclass of cabin crews flying around Australia on Australian carriers.”

“In the event of an emergency, I believe passengers have a right to expect that their cabin crews are going to be alert enough to get the door open and the passengers out,” Nick said.
Senator Xenophon has also said he will take up the issue of the low wages foreign crew are paid while employed by Australian airlines.

“It’s not good enough for Jetstar to say that a base wage of $300 a month is good by Bangkok standards,” Nick said. “These workers are employed by an Australian airline, they are flying in Australia, and they deserve better.”

While the bill will be immediately associated with Asia based cabin crews, it would also prevent the use of crews based in the nearer Pacific island states, PNG and New Zealand, from which Qantas already operates a supposedly fully independent trans Tasman carrier that uses NZ pilots and cabin attendants in NZ registered jets which are falsely labelled as Qantas The Spirit of Australia.

Senator Xenophon was the instigator of the recent Senate inquiry into pilot training and airline safety standards, which while it was taking testimony and submissions, is widely credited with derailing a sham NZ based cadet pilot scheme in which Jetstar was taking the participants to NZ for the purpose of opening NZ bank accounts and signing contracts in which they would be paid as NZ employees, even though it did not bring the cadets up to a standard which qualified them to fly an airliner in NZ.

:D:D:D:D:D: Finally, maybe some common sense :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[1a sound asleep]

Fine, just ad FLIGHT CREW to the bill whilst you are there

[Condition 1]

Sorry.bit late I know; but who pays for J* to use the QF Poco , eg Qantas Perth?

[Long Bay Mauler]

Why is Jetstar rountinely given access to aerobridges in ports such as Perth, over mainline aircraft that arrive and and must deplane the pax into the inclement weather on outlying bays with no bridge access?

[AtALoss]

Just spent over an hour reading through this post.
Many interesting points "put to paper".
But.... let's get real, who of any clout reads this?
Great way for people affected to vent, but I cannot see any advantage or possible change in the situation from all this.
Prove me wrong. I would love the people who caused all the trouble to be punished, expelled or even jailed.
Use this space as a squawk box, but don't get you hopes set too high.
Written with love.

[dragon man]

Jetstar flight into Kansai last night had faulty fire warning in cargo hold. Aircraft on the ground Air France engineers either wont or cant fix it. Qantas to rescue the passengers but who will foot the bill!!! The sixty four thousand dollar question?:ok:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Many interesting points "put to paper".
But.... let's get real, who of any clout reads this?


It depends what clout is. I am collecting all these concerns to put them to Qantas in a forum where they will be obliged to answer the questions. It doesn't mean they have to change but it may prevent them running a line against the unions the we "must change to survive".

[Handbrake]

Ataloss, fair comment. Would you have predicted the Murdoch's downfall? The leaky boat got them.

Spotted this on Ben Sandilands today.

David Klein
Posted July 30, 2011 at 2:47 pm | Permalink (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/07/29/xenophon-bill-would-outlaw-foreign-cabin-crews-on-domestic-australian-flights/#comment-6822)
There is a very fine line between tax minimization and tax avoidance and since numerous times I’ve observed data plates attached to the entry door frame of QF early series A330-200’s in Toulouse showing ownership as a leasing company in the Cayman Islands I’ve always felt the latter applies to the tax dodging Spirit of Australia.

[Condition 1]

I am collecting all these concerns to put them to Qantas in a forum where they will be obliged to answer the questions. It doesn't mean they have to change but it may prevent them running a line against the unions the we "must change to survive".

Great work ALAEA Fed Sec.

What are chances of ASIC, or some group of that calibre, conducting investigation after these questions are tabled?

I fear we may have limited victory unless CEOs go (both QF and J*) and there's a full change of direction of the Board Perhaps criminal charges could help.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I must admit that I don't know much about ASIC and how they could intervene. If anyone has got a handle on it, please act soon. Too late once the house is torn down.

[QAN_Shareholder]

Condition 1,

What are chances of ASIC, or some group of that calibre, conducting investigation after these questions are tabled?


I think you have been given false hope, in my view it is highly improbable. ASIC have a tough enough job getting traction in the most blatant cases. With Fortescue it was an open and shut case but it took over 5 years and they lost at the first attempt but managed to get it overturned on appeal. With Qantas there is a whole heap of allegations from people with an axe to grind but as far as I can see no proof of anything. Also is there a precedent for ASIC taking action for showing incorrect segmental profits and has any investor ended up worse off as a result? In reality there are plenty of instances in financial markets of genuine abuse which are far worse than any of the allegations raised here, I just can't see ASIC having any interest.

[7378FE]

Reffering to the thread title "Fallacy or Fact - Qantas International losses"

It is probably fact that QANTAS international is in the red.

The reasons are many, wrong route structure, wrong airplanes (no 777) competition etc.

Many people here question how Jetstar is going from stength to strength?

Why don't these same people ask which of these QANTAS group companies are helping out QF international?

QantasLink
Q Catering
QANTAS Freight
Express Ground Handling
Qantas Holidays
Qantas Defence Systems.....etc.

After all, revenue is derived from all the QANTAS group companies to the QANTAS group, It is then up to the QANTAS group to decide how to spend the money it has.

The shareholder has shares in the QANTAS group, not just QANTAS airlines, If the shareholders are convinced by the board that they would be better off with a slimmed down QANTAS international operation, then that is what they will vote for.

[600ft-lb]

The cull has been underway since 2005, I can see it rapidly increasing from here though.
The Qantas Group, has similar employee numbers as 2002.
2002 = 187 aircraft
2011 = 279 aircraft
A 50% increase in aircraft for the same numbers of staff.

Although Qantas mainline only operates 140 aircraft today.
B734's will be phased out by 2013. -17 aircraft
744's are slowly going from 2013. -20 aircraft
763's are slowly going from now. -25 aircraft

A332's 2 orders to come. And 1 day 11 back from Jetstar. +13
A333's 0 orders to come. +0
A380's 10 orders to come. +10
B738's 18 orders to come. +18
B787's - They aren't coming to Qantas.

Do the math, the future isn't bright if you're a Qantas employee. It's a stagnant policy, there is no growth planned for Qantas based off the numbers.
http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/2093/graph2l.jpg
http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/7628/graph1g.jpg

The sad thing is, the operating profit would be an extra $100+ million in 2009 if the war wasn't waged on the LAME's. I wonder if the scab strikebreaker money is tacked on to the wages bill ?

Seems the 2007 and 2009 Annual reports tell a different story in regards to attrition as well. Qantas attrition levels are revised downwards substantially in the case of engineering and Jetstars were revised up.

None the less Jetstar's attrition rate is very high, double digits consistently.
As per 2007 Annual Report
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/840/graph4.jpg/http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/1918/graph4.jpg
As per 2009 Annual Report
http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/4963/graph3.jpg
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/849/graph3.jpg/

[600ft-lb]

Oh this is going to hurt Qantas's bottom line
http://www.qantas.com.au/infodetail/about/investors/2010HYResults.pdf
Note 6. Other Financial Assets and Liabilities
Other financial assets and liabilities includes derivative instruments used to hedge financial exposures. The movement is
driven by changes in market variables, including foreign exchange and fuel price, as well as changes in underlying hedge
positions. During the half-year ended 31 December 2010, significant fluctuations in foreign exchange rates and crude oil
prices resulted in substantial changes in other financial assets and liabilities. As a result, the net other financial assets and
liabilities have increased from a net liability of $138 million at 30 June 2010 to a net liability of $507 million at
31 December 2010.Note 11. Contingent Liabilities
Other than as outlined below, there have been no material changes to contingent liabilities since 30 June 2010.
Freight regulatory fines and third party actions
Qantas continues to co-operate with regulators to finalise their investigations into alleged price fixing in the air cargo
market.
Since 30 June 2010, Qantas resolved its liability to the European Commission and paid a fine of EUR8.9 million. This
amount had been provided for at 30 June 2010.In addition, Qantas is a party to a number of third party class actions. In January 2011, Qantas reached a settlement,
subject to court approval, to resolve its liability under a class action in the United States. The amount of the US settlement
was recognised during the half-year ended 31 December 2010. Qantas continues to have a number of defences to the
remaining actions. Qantas expects the outcome of any remaining third party class actions will be known over the course
of the next few years.Ouch, another US$26.5 million

A class action claim was made against Qantas and other airlines by a number of travel agents as a result of travel agents
not being paid commission on fuel surcharges.
Qantas was successful in the initial action heard in the Federal Court, but was unsuccessful on appeal to the full Federal
Court and was subsequently denied leave to appeal to the High Court of Australia.
As such, Qantas has recognised the expense in relation to the full Federal Court decision in the half-year ended 31
December 2010.Ouch another $2.1 million

[600ft-lb]

I posted this in another thread, but it belongs here as well.

Qantas ONLY profitability. EBITAR based on Revenue

2007 $906million EBITAR on $13519million Revenue or 6.7% profit
2008 $1033.8million EBITAR on $12717million Revenue or 8.1% profit
2009 $1363million EBITAR on $11710million Revenue or 11.63% profit
2010 (half year) $710million EBITAR on $5295million Revenue or 13.4% profit

That is the Qantas segment only.

All figures taken from the annual reports of the respective years.

Even the hugely successful Singapore Airlines in their 2011 annual report
http://www.singaporeair.com/pdf/Investor-Relations/Annual-Report/annualreport1011.pdf

Across the entire group, they have an EBIT of $1418million on revenue of $14524 or only a 9.7% return

The airline segment only has an EBIT of $1342million on revenue of $12405million or only a 10.8% return

So Qantas, by itself, is more profitable then Singapore Airlines and has been increasing its profitability consistently over the last 4 years, yet Qantas is in a dire financial position ? :confused::confused::confused:

[my oleo is extended]

This from Letters in The Fin Review:
"The cost base comparison(quoted fromMerrill Lynch estimates)between Emirates and Qantas are grossly inaccurate.The net underlying costs in the audited annual reports for both airlines indicates a differential of 1.12 cents per available seat kilometre or 25%,not 228% as reported.It does not account for significant differences in network and fleet structure which flow through o demand for labour and shaping an airline's cost base.
Our 39000 staff are competitively remunerated.
Emirates incurs significant socialcosts to retain the high proportion of staff recruited on expatriate terms and conditions.On average every year,Emirates has to bear a total cost of more than $US500 million for expatriate employee benefits-including accommodation for employees and children's education for management,pilots,engineers and other staff--costs Qantas do not incur"
Andrew Parker
Emirates Airline.Dubai UAE
Perhaps EK can afford that of sort of remuneration component because their biggest cost isn't executive bonuses ?
It is interesting that the other day a news article reported that BB eaned $1.1 million last financial year. Yet industry rumour has it that he earned an additional $4.1 million from consultancy costs plus up to a further $3.0 million from leasing and other associated endeavours, putting his earnings at over $8.0 million for a 12 month period. I stress that this is just a rumour. Other rumours have been circulating that AJ earned close to $20.0 mil, and that Darth used to pull the same sort of coin. Makes you wonder doesn't it ?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

All charged to the International business undoubtedly.

[the_company_spy]

Why is it tat whilst Qantas mainline must impose an ever slowly increasing fuel surcharge "levy" to keep pace with the price of gas, J* do not? Infact they do not at all, saying that they are able to "adjust prices accordingly".

Do they add a few extra sheckles to the price of a muffin or tin of VB? Or is dear old Auntie footing that bill as well?

[C441]

Any truth in the suggestion that Qantas allegedly pay Jetstar a fixed sum for every flight operated by Jetstar to "guarantee" freight capacity?

[rodchucker]

Strongly suggest that if anyone has any details of alleged Rat Exec consultant fees and/or arrangements re leasing, then now may be a good time to put that out there via AIPA.

These rumours have been around for ages but no one has been very specific, so time to play the cards given the destruction that is going on around the place at the moment.

[my oleo is extended]

Strongly suggest that if anyone has any details of alleged Rat Exec consultant fees and/or arrangements re leasing, then now may be a good time to put that out there via AIPA.
These rumours have been around for ages but no one has been very specific, so time to play the cards given the destruction that is going on around the place at the moment.
Rodchucker. I agree. My comments were based upon rumour, as the posting of fact may become a legal matter. However, I would like to put it out there that often 'where there is smoke there is fire', and in the words of George W Bush and K Rudd 'there is a smoking gun' somewhere.
I am confidant that if there is any hard evidence produced it would likely be provided to the right person for use in the appropriate circumstance.
Pprune would be a risky place to 'dump' such evidence, and after all, Pprune is merely a 'rumour network'. Besides, Tailwheel tends to get a tad cranky when we go beyond the bounds of what is acceptable to post and encroach upon any legal minefield !

[Captain Peacock]

Emirates incurs significant socialcosts to retain the high proportion of staff recruited on expatriate terms and conditions.On average every year,Emirates has to bear a total cost of more than $US500 million for expatriate employee benefits-including accommodation for employees and children's education...
To be fair to QF, QF has to pay the income tax of all its employees. That would be well in excess of that US$500 mill the EK dude is touting for his so called "socialcosts". In fact QF's "socialcosts" would be well in excess of double that US$500 mill.

[hotnhigh]

All well and good for people to ask questions but when are the big end of town and the mainstream media going to wake up from their dream and have a dose of reality with respect to the performance of the Qantas group?
The peace pipe passed around at investor briefings must have some pretty special stuff in it for the major investors to walk away confident in the boards approach to everything from fleet selection to IR strategies. (After all, all employees can and must be wrong. Just ask Alan, Bruce, Thomas or Harbison)
The lack of dividends and the future looking pretty dire with the continued Mcdonaldsdisation of Qantas and lack of real plans for promoting and growing an Australian airline soundly and smartly, must sound alarm bells.
One can only hope.............

[aussie_herb]

Hi Captain Peacock , last time I looked I paid my income tax .. not QANTAS

[flying-spike]

"Emirates incurs significant social costs to retain the high proportion of staff recruited on expatriate terms and conditions.On average every year,Emirates has to bear a total cost of more than $US500 million for expatriate employee benefits-including accommodation for employees and children's education for management,pilots,engineers and other staff--costs Qantas do not incur"

That is half a billion U.S. to polish the proverbial and roll it in glitter and it still ends up being a Henry the Third. Surely this makes a case for overseas crew basings?

[Captain Peacock]

Umm, der aussie_herb, who gives you the money to pay the income tax?

EK gross salaries are way below QF gross salaries because EK don't give you dosh to pay tax because there is none. The net amount is pretty much the same.

Employment with EK wins out because the company puts you in a house, pays for your kids education etc, so you have more spending money in the end.

Only problem is you have to live in a sandpit.

[Ushuaia]

Captain Peacock said:

To be fair to QF, QF has to pay the income tax of all its employees.

Truly mind boggling, isn't it? I mean, aircraft fly themselves ("you just press the autopilot button, don't you") and now I learn that Qantas should be paying paying my $70,000 income tax bill, not me!

We really have no hope when there is such ignorance out there.

In fairness to Captain Peacock, perhaps he was trying to make a clumsy comparison of net wages. I have no idea. But in case it continues to escape comprehension amongst some, the figures usually bandied around for Australian pilot are GROSS salaries. Take away tax and mortgage/rent payements and the numbers don't appear so big anymore - indeed they sit around the EK net salary levels.

p.s. I see Capt P has clarified. Yes, as I thought. :ugh: Now, to work on the "plane flies itself" thing. What a waste of bandwidth today....

[Captain Peacock]

It was stated at an EK roadshow recently that there will never be bases away from Dubai.

The facilitator said that if they gave you extra to pay local taxes in order to have the same take home pay as a Dubai based pilot, it would cost EK too much.

So much for their US$500 mill socialcosts.

[aussie_herb]

Sorry Peacock didn't see your former posts, the reality is in Australia a mortagage , utilities and school fees leave what I pay in Income tax for dead and if I was living in Sydney it would be even worse . Its not a tit for tat thing though . We all way up what is on offer out there and work towards the job we would prefer . What is becoming abundantly clear in here though that market forces will have to eventually push wages and conditions up if these airlines wish to attract the crews they will need in the future.

[Captain Peacock]

What is becoming abundantly clear in here though that market forces will have to eventually push wages and conditions up if these airlines wish to attract the crews they will need in the future.
You may well see it happening now with JQ. They can't get anybody for thier SIN base so have upped the payscale.

[Keg]

By 20% from what reports on Qrewroom suggest.

[JDI]

Copied from Another person from Qrewroom:



In the 7 July issue of BRW it was stated that QANTAS has managed to destroy 43% of it's brand value in just 2 short years.

90 years to build a brand, 2 years to destroy 43% of it.

I would love to take credit for the following reply to one of Ben Sandilands blogs. I don't know who wrote it, and I apologise if it has been posted on here before, but I hadn't seen it until today. It provides a very inciteful synopsis of how we have found ourselves in this position of fighting for our very existence, and pulls no punches on who is to blame.

Read on.
----------

Some of you may be aware of the media attention recently coming upon Qantas- especially from it's CEO, Alan Joyce.

Joyce came to the Qantas Group to run Jetstar, and had a small stint in Ansett, and a large stint in Ryanair previous to joining Qantas. Joyce has in past few months called Qantas pilots "Recalcitrant", "Kamikaze", and "Rogue", as well as accusing them of "Living on cloud cuckoo land". The reason- Qantas pilots are asking to ensure Qantas pilot jobs remain in Australia, as there is gathering evidence that Qantas wants to move more of it's operations offshore. Qantas Engineers are also asking for the same guarantees. So far, Qantas has refused to negotiate at all on these asks from the pilots and engineers.

Joyce was the golden haired boy of the previous CEO Geoff Dixon, the man who masterminded the attempted private Equity buyout of Qantas in 2007. Thankfully that did not get through. If it did, Qantas would have defaulted on the debt it was going to be loaded with, and would most certainly not exist anymore. Dixon stood to make $60m out of the deal, and Joyce in excess of $20m.

In the Dixon/Joyce years, decision have been made that have severely damaged the Qantas brand, including forcing passengers onto Jetstar without choice, closing in-house maintenance of engines which has resulted in a 180% increase in engine failures in the past 5 years, and not buying the right aircraft to modernise Qantas and allow route expansion. To add, Qantas has subisided the Jetstar operation from the start including paying for maintenance, payment of landing fees, fuel and terminal charges, and seat subsidies.

As a result, Qantas share prices are below their 1995 issue price of $2.00.

Joyce was in Singapore recently for the International Air Transport Association (IATA) conference and blasted the pilots and engineers as being to blame for the tanking share price. He also stated that there would be no more investment in Qantas until it "started to return it's cost of capital". As one commentator put it, this is akin to "not spending any money on your car to make it run until it starts".

To put some of this into context and to show how badly Qantas management have stuffed up, here is some quotes from Qantas management and what has subsquently happened:

"Jetstar will not operate more than 15 aircraft" G.Dixon 2004. It now operates more than 70 aircraft.

"Jetstar will never operate internationally" G Dixon 2004. It has taken many Qantas routes from it's parent company to Hawaii, Japan, Bali and other ports.

"Emirates is not a threat as it is not a growth model" G Dixon 2001. Emirates now operates more than 60 services per week to Australia and flies to 26 destinations in Europe.

"The B777 is an old technology aircraft" G Dixon 2006. The B777 could fly 90% of the routes currently flown by the B747 with a 30% reduction in fuel burn and is flown by every major airline in the world.

"There is no money in freight" G Dixon 2004. Qantas now operates a full freighter B767 aircraft flown by contract pilots as well as full time contracts with Atlas Air Cargo.

All the while Qantas pilots get assigned Long Service Leave because of a surplus in pilot numbers due to the outsourcing of flying previously done by Qantas pilots to Jetstar, Atlas cargo, Jetconnect across the Tasman, and Jetstar Asia.

You will find below a succienct, precise, summary of where and why Qantas finds itself- losing money and losing market share. This was written as a response to a blog by Ben Sandilands on crikey.com.

------------------------------------------

Qantas pilots and engineers ask for your support and patience this year while we try to end the rot, keep Australian jobs in Australia and attempt to save a national icon from corporate greed.

--------------------------------------------

Of all the elements a board and a CEO must manage and protect, surely building and protecting the brand of a company must be their number one priority.

Clifford came out swinging on the weekend saying the focus of the board and CEO must be, and is, on the share price and return of capital. But it is the brand that drives the share price, not the other way around. Everything else flows from that.

If you followed that logic Jetstar never would have been started and Virgin wouldn’t be spending a fortune relaunching and building the brand. If Virgin can do that, why cant Qantas?

Let’s look at the facts. This is marketing and business studies 101.

Qantas from the inception of the very first brand surveys decades ago consistently and without exception, year in year out, always lead the pack as the NUMBER ONE BRAND in Australia. This was not just in terms of brand recognition but also in relation to the more significant drivers of financial success in the market place; trust and emotional attachment for the brand.

The Qantas brand was pure 100%, 24 carat, rolled gold.

This was Qantas’s number one asset. It still should be. Bigger than all the aircraft and other tangibles combined. Every airline has plant and equipment, but only Qantas had that number one position, the ultimate in brand power.

After sitting at number one for decades Qantas is no longer even in the top ten. But worse than that here’s a report from Readers Digest annual Most Trusted Brands survey way back in 2008.

” … the iconic flying kangaroo, Qantas, dropped 47 spots in consumer confidence.”

You read right. In 2008 Qantas dropped 47 spots.

That massive drop in the brand if quantified in dollar terms is so much more than the net worth Jetstar has added to the Qantas group.



So what happened. How did the best, most loved, number one brand in Australia for decades crash and burn. So quickly. So badly.

There are two main reasons for this. And they have names, the first being Dixon, the other Joyce. The destruction of the brand has zippo to do with the current biffo with the unions.


1/ When Dixon took over as CEO the Qantas brand was still riding high and proud at number one. It was untouchable. He was seen by many as marketing and PR genius. Yet the destruction of the Qantas brand can be traced back through these exact same brand surveys to having commenced during his tenure. It is no coincidence that this rapid decline coincides EXACTLY with the rise of Jetstar under the Qantas umbrella.

BA when they held seats on the board warned Dixon an in house low cost carrier would cannibalize the parent brand. Dixon thought he knew better.

We all know the story. As soon as Jetstar was launched Qantas ****ed off many local communities with the haste it pulled out of so many key domestic and international markets and forced people who were used to, and wanted full service, onto Jetstar with an appalling lack of service.

Everyone knows Jetstar is Qantas. Each and every time people feel ripped off or mishandled by Jetstar, which is often, the knife is dug deeper and twisted further into what is left of the Qantas brand.

Just ask any of the tens of thousands of passengers forced to fly Jetstar (because Qantas has pulled out) to destinations like the Gold Coast, Sunshine Coast, Tasmania, Hamilton Island, Bali or Japan. They don’t blame Jetstar, they blame Qantas.


2/ From the day Jetstar was conceived fleet renewal and investment in the mainline product ceased almost completely. While Jetstar got an entirely new fleet of fuel efficient A320/A330 aircraft “full fare” passengers on “full service” Qantas were stuck with clapped out, gas gusling, dirty and unreliable aircraft. The new Dallas debacle is a perfect example.

As you point out Ben, when Qantas could have, should have been renewing its mainline fleet, such as buying B777 as did all of its main competitors, there was no money or motivation as all the focus and cash were thrown at Jetstar.

Clifford and Joyce had already earmarked the first B787s for Jetstar, meaning Qantas mainline will not be seeing any new aircraft for many years. Just who has been subsidising who? This only serves to compound the destruction of the brand.

Joyce is now the biggest most vocal detractor of Qantas brand, constantly screaming hysterically that long haul is in serious trouble.

What would the books look like if Qantas had, as it should have as the premium brand, a fleet of all new and super efficient aircraft while the budget arm Jetstar was stuck with the old aircraft from the current mainline fleet.

A/ Jetstar would no longer be making money


B/ Qantas mainline would be making money


C/ Qantas would have a product people expect of a full service carrier and it would be growing its market share.

No one at Qantas management either remembers, nor understands, these important lessons from history.

The only player who appears to do so is John Borghetti. You can see he ‘gets it’ by his determination to invest substantially in a full service product, to grow markets such as this morning’s tie up with Singapore Airlines, the business and the Virgin brand.

He knows where Qantas is vulnerable and it is insightful too that he is branding Virgin Australia as the Australian airline and he is vocal about returning jobs to Australia service his aircraft here.

[airtags]

nice trend eh!!...

[ejectx3]

Unbelievable stupidity from these greedy clowns...

[TIMA9X]

Pilot boast giving Qantas cabin fever (http://www.smh.com.au/business/pilot-boast-giving-qantas-cabin-fever-20110802-1i9t2.html)

CBD
http://images.smh.com.au/2011/08/02/2532012/Simon_Letch-200x0.jpg Saturday night special ... Alan Joyce feels the fever. Illustration: Simon Letch.

The ongoing industrial dispute between Qantas and its 1650 long-haul pilots has claimed its highest profile victim to date. The airline confirmed yesterday that it has started replacing a pre-flight safety video starring John Travolta.
Just five months since installing the clip hosted by the Saturday Night Fever star on its jets, Qantas has argued that it was never meant to be a permanent fixture.
"John Travolta's introduction to the in-flight safety video was an initiative to help draw attention to this vital safety information, building on his established relationship with Qantas,'' said an airline spokesman.
''It was always intended as a temporary feature and we are looking at working with other Qantas partners on similar initiatives in future."
But the pilots union sees another motive at play, given the similarity between Travolta's message in the video to its own.
In the safety video, Travolta says: ''There's no one I'd rather have at the controls than a Qantas pilot.''
The Australian & International Pilots Association's motto in its industrial campaign against Qantas sourcing lower-paid pilots from overseas is: ''When you board a Qantas flight, you expect a Qantas pilot.'' The association's vice-president, Richard Woodward, said: "Admittedly, the John Travolta in-flight video had its fair share of detractors, but the one line I think everyone agreed with was that there was no one you would rather have at the controls than a Qantas pilot. In simpler times, this would be an uncontroversial remark, but with Alan Joyce now eager to outsource Qantas pilot jobs overseas, well, suddenly Travolta is out of step with the chief executive officer.''
It is unclear whether the Qantas CEO Alan ''Tony Manero'' Joyce could star in a future Qantas safety clip. my bold



The press are on to them, it wasn't long ago Q management were defending the video as well received by the punters. Nasty stuff, grease is the word...:O

John Travolta Qantas safety video: annoying or appropriate? - Flights | hotels | frequent flyer | business class - Australian Business Traveller (http://www.ausbt.com.au/john-travolta-qantas-safety-video-annoying-or-appropriate)

It wasn't long ago they said.....

the airline had received "only positive feedback from staff and customers".Oh dear.....

[my oleo is extended]

It is unclear whether the Qantas CEO Alan ''Tony Manero'' Joyce could star in a future Qantas safety clip.
Perhaps he could star in a new clip while dancing an Irish jig or performing some river dance moves ?

What about Wirthless ? She always delivers a stern mesage, and safety is a serious subject. However any 'head shots' may scare the kiddies !

And what about showing some footage of Darth and Marge.You know, the day that the bid looked like it was a done deal and Darth was going to pocket $60 mil !! That kind of footage truly reflects a Qantas employee in his element, a great morale boost to the public ?

[Terrey]

It seems Qantas Holidays has a different view to AJ. Who is telling the truth?


Qantas Holidays to focus on domestic; culls most Viva! brochures
Wednesday, 3 August 2011
Qantas Holidays are undergoing strategic changes to boost business which includes a more focused approach to their domestic offering and a revamp to its Viva! Holidays product in 2012.
The wholesaler is expected to package more domestic special-event focused promotions, while replacing all but one Viva! Holidays brochure with 5 Viva! “Great Deals” flyers, focusing on Canada and ski in Japan, USA and Canada.
Speaking at the Travelscene American Express NCC last weekend, Group General Manager Wholesale, Simon Bernardi said agents provided 88 per cent of their current business, with 75 per cent directly from Travelscene and Jetset members.
“The performance we've been getting has been fantastic for international sales, domestic is where we've got to do a bit of work on an industry wide basis,” Mr Bernardi said.
Mr Bernardi revealed the group had some “cunning plans to work with the tourism offices domestically”, to avoid market share being captured by internet bookings.
Highlighting growth in stable destinations USA, UK, Europe, Thailand and Bali, Mr Bernardi said focus to ensuring growth domestically would be to package successful events to create a destination for clients.
The wholesaler is also planning to trial an email guarantee system after introducing a call back facility after longer than usual waiting times for contact call centres continued to provide strife for agents.

[Capt Kremin]

From the 2010 Qantas annual report:

Qantas Mainline employees: 27132
Aircraft:138
Employees per Aircraft= 196.6

Jetstar employees: 3098
Aircraft: 59
Employees per Aircraft= 52.5

Ok, Jetstar doesn't operate any 747's or A380's, but can someone explain how they can get away with 25% of the employees per aircraft that mainline seems to need.

No wonder it is an "Amazing business!!"

For information, the average EPA for the American majors is approx 91, ranging from 129 for the full service carriers to 65 for Southwest.

[DEFCON4]

Jetstar no doubt receives a lot of assistance from Qantas personnel which isnt included in their figures.
In the real world its called getting a freebie.
It could be suggested that Jestar is run on "freebies"

[Budfox]

It could be suggested that Jestar is run on "freebies"

As well as being run on muffins and coffee :p

[600ft-lb]

Read the annual report in regards to intersegment reporting.

Costs associated with the centralised management and governance of the Qantas Group, together with certain items which are not allocated to
business segments, are reported as Corporate/Unallocated.
Fuel and foreign exchange hedge gains/losses are allocated to Segments based on the timing of underlying transactions.
Intersegment revenue has been determined on an arm’s length basis or a cost plus margin basis depending on the nature of the revenue. Ancillary
and support services are allocated to segments on a cost only basis.Basically those statements are on 'out' to report whatever figure they want.

Just like the purchase of the remaining 5% of the Jetstar Asia group, the massive financial success that it is.
Less: cash acquired $-49million
Less: payables $-32million
Less: provisions $-14million
Plus: receiveable $+16million
Plus: other current and non current assets $+17million
Total loss for additional 4% of Jetstar asia $-58million

Plus funny money accountant speak "fair value adjust" $+70million

=======

$12 million profit!

Success, break out the champagne bottles, its gonna be a great year for KPI's!

Page 84 of the 2010 annual report. Go entertain yourself with Qantas's most highly valued employees, the number shufflers.

If they can do that with the dog that Jetstar Asia is, imagine what they're doing here.

Can't wait for the IFRS 9 to come into effect...:ok:

[mohikan]

Interesting numbers Kremin.

One could deduce from the fact that QF mainline has significantly more employees per airframe then comparable majors elsewhere, that it is overmanned and full of feather bedding.

Oh but wait, that can't be the case because the reason QF international is rooted is because of the pilots and the LAME's, not the thousands of blunts in the Mascot precinct making work for themselves......

[600ft-lb]

Capt Kremin, It does seem like a lot.

Like my previous post just remember that Jetstar don't have any staff looking after the central governance/financial aspect as its all provided by the group.

Qantas group seconds a number of employees to Jetstar as per admissions from themselves.

Jetstar contract out numerous services to the mainline 'at cost' even though many segments in mainline lack the ability to properly charge for services rendered.

Qantas engineering apparenly has 6000 employees. I'd say the number of actual productive employees propping up the remaining is around the 2500 number. Though if the 'plan' goes through, that will be 1500 productive employees propping up 5000.

Do Jetstar have their own training departments or is that outsourced ? Is the airports ground handling their own or is it outsourced ? Is the cabin crew their own or is it outsourced ? Do Jetstar do all of their own aircraft maintenance ?

Outsourcing is a great way to make the figures look good on paper, but doesn't mean its an accurate reflection of total amount of people involved per aircraft.

But it's 'world best practice' to outsource as much as possible. World's best practice is an accounting term regarding the smallest number possible in the 'accounts payable' section of the balance sheet.

[Capt Kremin]

From the same report (2010):

Revenue $ per employee:

Jetstar: $709,000
Mainline:$391,000
Southwest Airlines:$296,000 (2009 data)

If these figures are actually true then the Board is being criminally negligent by NOT winding up mainline, because they have obviously hit upon a formula that delivers 250% more revenue per employee than even the fabled Southwest Airlines.

[standard unit]

they have obviously hit upon a formula that delivers 250% more revenue per employee than even the fabled Southwest Airlines.

So much coffee, so many muffins :rolleyes:

[Angle of Attack]

The excessive amount of staff per aircraft is not on the front line, its all the QCC maggots that make those high staff numbers. Still remember a few years ago the check in times in the BNE domestic was excessive for months and months after some manager cut ground staff levels. Solution? Employ some consultants with clipboards recording waiting times for who knows how much and after all of the results. they employed more ground staff! Rocket Science obviously! Deers with no eyes.... :ugh:

[600ft-lb]

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/4981/qfintpax.jpg
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/628/qfvall.jpg
Looks to me like a failure/refusal to grow the Qantas segment at all. All of the growth has been elsewhere. There's also been a failure to grow passenger numbers anywhere close to the growth this country has had.

The Qantas segment has been in a steady decline since 2006.

Imagine if there were some decent foresight and acceptance of risk that new technology aircraft production will not go smoothly and some B777's ordered around that time instead of 787's.

[Short_Circuit]

Who will pay for the numerous redundancies payouts from domestic & international operations. Cost, aprox $200 million. Have we heard that figure before? Hummmm!

[bucko70]

Reference Honolulu, in 2008, QF crewing was told to crew all Jet* services using 767s, forcing crewing to cancel QF services. What did they pay? What was the cost of lost revenue?

[Going Boeing]

Singapore Airlines orders eight more Boeing 777s

Singapore - Singapore Airlines (SIA) said Wednesday it has placed an order for eight Boeing 777-300ER aircraft, worth $2.3 billion at list prices.

The order is to support the Singapore carrier's growth plans, SIA said in a statement.

"These additional B777-300ERs will help support our ongoing programme to further strengthen the Singapore Airlines network, providing more travel options to our customers," chief executive Goh Choon Phong said.

"The order is in line with our longstanding policy of operating a young and modern fleet."

Goh said the fresh orders will enable the carrier "to offer our latest cabin products which have proven extremely popular with our customers."

The new planes, which will be powered by General Electric GE90 engines, will fly the airline's medium and long-haul destinations, SIA said.

SIA's current 106-strong fleet includes 19 Boeing 777-300ERs, the carrier said.

The Singapore carrier expects to take delivery of the new planes in its 2013-2014 financial year and it will configure the aircraft in a three-class layout.

SIA earned a profit of Sg$1.09 billion ($900 million) in the year to March 2011 on revenues of Sg$14.5 billion.

by Imed Lamloum (c) 2011 AFP

Cathay Pacific buys 12 Boeing planes

Hong Kong - Cathay Pacific said Wednesday it will buy 12 planes from Boeing at a list price of more than $3 billion as part of the airline's expansion plans.

The Hong Kong-based carrier said it would buy four 777-300ER passenger aircraft and another eight 777-200F freighter aircraft for a total list price of $3.28 billion, but added it had won "significant price concessions" from the US aircraft maker.

Cathay said it would start taking delivery of the aircraft in 2013.

"The Boeing aircraft will replenish and expand the fleet capacity of the company," it said in a statement Wednesday.

"They will principally serve long-haul destinations in North America and Europe."

by Marianne Barriaux (c) 2011 AFP

[dragon man]

You have to feel sorry for Cathay and Sing Air, can you imagine been stupid enough to order more old technology 777s.:D

[hotnhigh]

The Singapore carrier expects to take delivery of the new planes in its 2013-2014 financial year and it will configure the aircraft in a three-class layout.

And when are the 787s going to arrive?????:ugh:
Good one Alan. Staying ahead of the pack yet again.

[ReverseFlight]

CX orders old tech at a reduced price. Like buying analogue TVs 'cos they are cheap. Alternate economics. :ugh:

[1a sound asleep]

B777-300ERs are just brilliant planes. Even EK is making noises about the A350 maybe not being up to it as weight becomes and issue requiring more thruust

[The Green Goblin]

The 777 will be like the 747.

Around for a long time yet, in several more reincarnations.

I think it's time Qantas ate some of that Humble Pie, canned some of the gongs and leveraged Boeing into paying the penalties to Airbus for a decent sized 777 order.

I reckon 15-20 Airframes will tie in nicely, with 10 gongs and 10 74s. Boeing would be licking it's lips if QF canned anymore 380s. In fact I bet they'd offer a good package of 748s and 773s in the process.

Over to de lit'le man ter be sure ter be sure :hmm:

[73to91]

You have to feel sorry for Cathay and Sing Air, can you imagine been stupid enough to order more old technology 777s There must be a few more airlines with stupid management 'dragon man', because Boeing had 48 new orders in April alone, apparently.

Boeing said that it has increased production of its widebody 777 plane to seven per month from a previous rate of five.


Production of the plane is set to rise to 8.3 planes a month in the first quarter of 2013, the manufacturer said in a statement. There were 48 new orders received for 777s during April, Boeing added.


The rate increases reflect strong demand for the 777, which serves the 300 to 400 passenger-seat market.


Boeing also said production flow for the plane had been reduced to 49 days from 52 days from start to finish because of increased productivity.
Boeing Boosts Widebody 777 Production*|*AviationBrief – Your Daily Aviation Intelligence Brief (http://www.aviationbrief.com/?p=1620)

[comrade10]

not sure if anyone mentioned it yet but all the engineering support, meaning the CAR 35s on call out of hours within the OST group all do jetstar engineering support and write their EA,s, all of these guys and their tech cell support staff are QF employees, all on double dollars plus call up allowance...

[B772]

Last week EK indicated they may cancel their order for 20 x A350-1000's and replace it with more B777-300's. BA are considering a further B777-300 order.

(The mighty B777. 0 to 100 kph in 6 seconds)

Ps. BA plan to recruit 800 pilots over the next 5 years. So much for the mess at QF.

[skybed]

CX ordered another 12 B 777
SQ another 8 B777
QF:ugh::{

[73to91]

From the SMH this morning.
Boeing 787 Dreamliner | FAA certification expected next week (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/dreams-alive-boeing-expects-dreamliner-certification-next-week-20110812-1ipuk.html)


In the meantime, the "very modest" cost of adding new engines to the 737 rather than replacing it frees up cash to improve the 777 and do a stretched version of the 787 to compete with larger rival Airbus SAS, he said. The company is in talks with half a dozen airlines about the "777-X," he said.



and


[quote]Albaugh said he wouldn't be surprised if Boeing takes in more orders this year than it fills. The company booked new contracts for 19 more 777s in the past week,



Silly airlines whoever you are, you should have asked GD for some quality advice.

[Short_Circuit]

Old technology alright, where are the winglets and why dont the gears tilt the right way? :rolleyes:
Lucky QF did not waste money on them.:ugh:

[B772]

It is interesting to read that Boeing has received a net 98 orders for the B777 so far in 2011. The net orders for the B787 in 2011 are -20.

[Going Boeing]

Ground engineers in SIN who service both Qantas and Jetstar aircraft are now having to fill in forms whenever they work on Jetstar aircraft - so for the first time at this port, Jetstar are being billed for fuel, oil, engineering services etc instead of the all costs being attributed to Qantas.

More and more Journos are aware of the deceit of QF management and since management are scared that their house of cards are about to fall down around their ears, they are making changes to pretend that the whole operation is legit.

[The Green Machine]

Hold on everyone, before we starts slagging off at the decision about NOT buying 777. Consider the fact that buying them may have affected the balance sheets in the short term, hence (GD/AJ) BONUS. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ . And we all know short term greed of a few managers is FAR more important than the long term viability of QF. You guys need to see the bigger picture.
TGM

[Angle of Attack]

The point is they are starting to kill of Qantas mainline so much that poor old jetstar is going to start making a loss! Bring it on! These fools are so pathetic, call them managers? ha! Call them idiots!

[1a sound asleep]

Was trying to book a flight to Paris tonight on Qf site. 90% of the flights that came up, and all the lowest price ones were codeshares. Typically JQ to SIN and then AF to CDG. If I wanted to fly an airline that wasn't Qantas I would have gone to another site. They are actively encouraging pax on to other airlines :ugh:

[V-Jet]

To be fair 1a, what you mention may well be out of Qantas' management hands. What you are most likely witnessing first hand is nothing more than the excellence of Qantas IT :ugh:

[7378FE]

On the S7 (Siberian Airlines) website you can get a return Sydney-Moscow for $937 incl all fuel fines dep tax etc flying with QF SYD-FRA-SYD.

On th QF website the cheapest return SYD-FRA is $2188, including taxes of $815.

Either QF are ripping the punters off with the taxes or they lose money big time on the partnership with S7.

[ohallen]

ALAEA,

Going back to the original issue that you raised, do you have a substantial list of issues that can now be addressed to Rat Execs in an appropriate forum?

Hopefully these Execs will eventually provide some "spin less" answers to assure us all that they are on top of the issues and all the views expressed here have no foundation.

Yeah, I know I am dreaming again but I still live in hope.

If they cannot or will not respond, where does it go to from there beyond the hot air file?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Hey all,

All responses both public and private have been put together. Thanks to all the posters and former Qantas employees and Executives who have assisted. The list has been culled as some suggestions were baseless or duplicated and a final compilation of 61 questions with sub parts was formally put to the airline last week.

cheers
Steve

[What The]

May I suggest that it also be sent to every Board member putting them on notice and to every major shareholder.

[Going Boeing]

Steve, the timing of your submission to QF management appears to coincide with when the SIN engineers were instructed to start charging Jetstar costs to Jetstar - your efforts are having an effect. :D

[1a sound asleep]

I posted yesterday about flights to France on the QF website and how the cheap flights were not even with QF.

The crazy site has some more silly results. The entire QF fare structure is out of whack. What a circus

Qantas domestic fares cheaper than Jetcrap WTF? | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/08/13/weird-numbers-on-qantas-and-jetstar-booking-sites/)

Let’s go back to almost everything Qantas ever said about Jetstar, how it wouldn’t compete head to head with Jetstar, and would address an entirely different type of price driven customer and then try to make sense of what Qantas.com and Jetstar.com.au had on offer for Monday week on Australia’s busiest domestic route.

Qantas.com had $112 fares between Sydney and Melbourne at very convenient times of the day. And this does include a checked bag and something to eat with tea or coffee, which cost extra on the cheapest level of fares offered by Virgin Australia and on the Jetstar and Tiger fares, cheap or otherwise.

In fact in the screen grabs immediately below, you can see Qantas going head to head with Jetstar on the route, and fencing Jetstar’s cheapest fare as shown on Qantas.com of $167 for its 3.40 pm flight with the $112 QF fares with food and a checked bag included as well as more room for your knees.

Even more astonishing is the 7 am Qantas departure offering a flexible $219 fare compared to the flexible fare of $347 being asked by Jetstar for its separate 7 am departure.

[breakfastburrito]

newsflash from Dec 2012
"...Domestic is deeply unprofitable said the Qantas CEO during questions today at the press club"
</sarcasm>

[DirectAnywhere]

1a, you can't fly to Paris with QF. QF stopped going there maybe 7-8 years ago. Now it's all codeshare with AF through SIN or HKG.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Qantas engineers serve carrier with Jetstar cost questions | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/08/16/questions-that-qantas-investors-may-like-to-have-answered/)


Here are that questions that went to them last week all. They are obliged to answer them and must provide us access to the books as per the Fair Work Act. The answers of course will be confidential.

Maybe some members of the press could ask them of Qantas as well.

[paulg]

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