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KAG
23rd Jul 2011, 06:22
Is it a real threat?
Who thinks it's just a game, and "they" (Obama-congressional leaders) will agree, eventually, before the 10 days count down?
At the opposite who thinks it's a serious issue?

I beleive there is 50% probability the negociation will succeed (or fail). I beleive if it fails we will enter immediately in a huge recession like in 2008.
If this is the case, it would be the second time the US put the world into a deep recession within 3 years, and it starts to be slightly annoying as we haven't recovered from the first one (I am afraid to add: "yet").


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/23/us/politics/23fiscal.html?_r=1&hpWASHINGTON — Negotiations over a broad deficit reduction plan collapsed in acrimony on Friday after Speaker John A. Boehner suddenly broke off talks with President Obama, raising the risk of an economy-shaking default.

hellsbrink
23rd Jul 2011, 06:39
I doubt there will be a recession, Obaba (not a typo, for he will cry like a little baby when he doesn't get his own way) will just have to cut his spending and since that does not seem to have had the job creation effect he claimed it would I cannot see a crisis over him not spending the money.








BTW. Mods, shouldn't this be in the US Politics thread?

Slasher
23rd Jul 2011, 06:40
You bet its a real threat! I've been making posts about same
for months on the US Hamsterwheel thread. I will be writing
there again after Aug 2nd. No point in repeating myself here.

KAG
23rd Jul 2011, 06:49
We have topic about snails, I guess snails are more importants than a possible economic fall down because of this particular debt ceiling...

This huge threat deserve a topic for itself, no need to mix it with completely different all kind of other issues.

Metro man
23rd Jul 2011, 06:59
"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pound ought and six, result misery."
— Charles Dickens (David Copperfield)

Dead 140 years but Dickens seems to have had more understanding of economics than the IMF, Federal Reserve and European Central Bank combined.

KAG
23rd Jul 2011, 07:56
"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pound ought and six, result misery."
— Charles Dickens (David Copperfield)

Dead 140 years but Dickens seems to have had more understanding of economics than the IMF, Federal Reserve and European Central Bank combined.
Charles Dickens should have been named president so he could solve any kind of issue with a simple and short sentence.

If poetry, novels and litterature are what they are, there is a reason.
We won't build an aircraft with the picture (paint?) of it taken by the best photographer (painter?) in the world.

Still, thank you for the reference, it cannot hurt.



Very intersting (Boehner's Letter July 22 nd): Boehner's Letter on Leaving Debt Negotiations (http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/223142-boehners-letter-on-leaving-debt-negotiations.html)

MountainBear
23rd Jul 2011, 07:57
Is it a real threat?
Who thinks it's just a game,

There is a sense in which it's a game and a sense in which it is not. In a micro short-term sense it's a game and a distraction because the sky isn't going to fall in on August 2nd regardless of what happens.

On the other hand, the actual total size of the American debt, and who is going to pay it, is a real long-term macro problem and not a game at all (other than in the sense all life is a game). Much of the political maneuvering going on right now is simply people staking positions on that larger issue and laying the groundwork for the next election.

Cacophonix
23rd Jul 2011, 08:01
There is a sense in which it's a game and a sense in which it is not. In a micro short-term sense it's a game and a distraction because the sky isn't going to fall in on August 2nd regardless of what happens.

On the other hand, the actual total size of the American debt, and who is going to pay it, is a real long-term macro problem and not a game at all (other than in the sense all life is a game). Much of the political maneuvering going on right now is simply people staking positions on that larger issue and laying the groundwork for the next election.


Methinks the bear speaks fairly and truly.

Metro man
23rd Jul 2011, 08:10
If I had to borrow 40c out of every dollar I spent, I would probably realise that I was living beyond my means and do something about it.

Raising the limits on my already maxed out credit cards so that I could borrow more money just to pay the interest on my debt would hardly be a solution. It just kicks the problem a bit further down the road while it increases in size.

Living beyond your means can only go on for so long, as the P.I.I.G.S. and Americans are finding out.

Problem is that while the solution is obvious, nobody wants to take the medcine and no government can expect to administer it and remain in power.

A massive reduction in living standards, increased retirement age, reduced welfare benefits, reduction in the size of the public service, eliminating government waste all need doing but won't go down well.

KAG
23rd Jul 2011, 08:16
Yes mountain bear, rising the debt won't solve the issue, as it won't make desapear the debts, at the opposite it will increase it. This is a lose/lose situation, where politics has very little choice of option (maybe none?) to make a good decision and save the situation. Is that the end of the western world as we know it today, more than just a recession risk? Did deregulation beat us back when Asia started to play with us?

If the US fails again (second time in 3 years, yes I already said it) the remaining western world may fall aswell.


U.S. Debt Ceiling: Costs and Consequences - Council on Foreign Relations (http://www.cfr.org/international-finance/us-debt-ceiling-costs-consequences/p24751)The U.S. Treasury has borrowed trillions of dollars over the past decade, much of it from foreign investors, to help finance two long wars, rescue its financial system, and promote economic growth through fiscal stimulus. The government must be able to issue new debt as long as it continues to run a budget deficit--the current shortfall is about $125 billion per month. As the national debt approaches its statutory limit of $14.29 trillion, concern mounts over the consequences of congressional delay or paralysis in extending the government's ability to borrow. The United States has never failed to raise its debt limit, and many economists assert that failure to do so would plunge the government into default and precipitate an acute fiscal crisis (TheHill). Lawmakers from both parties concede there are dire consequences associated with a default, but some Republican members of Congress plan to use the debt limit as a negotiating chip (Politico) to extract deeper spending cuts and long-term fiscal reforms from the White House.

KAG
23rd Jul 2011, 15:33
Count down: 9 days

hellsbrink
23rd Jul 2011, 15:41
KAG

Do you REALLY think Obaba is going to let the US default? He's talking a lot, and saying he expects the ceiling to be raised because he doesn't expect Congress to be "irresponsible" (ironic, imo), but when push comes to shove, if the ceiling is not raised, the US debt repayments will be paid, social security, etc, will be paid, the world will turn.

Even he knows that allowing a default will be the final nail in his coffin, he'd be lucky to last until the next election. So, please, stop being like Obaba and stop the scaremongering.

Henry09
23rd Jul 2011, 15:44
Just like the public spending budget, it will all be sorted at the 11th hour and the congressmen and President will all come out slapping backs and yelling jolly hockey sticks, the markets will breath a sigh of relief and then skyrocket.

It's all a game. But what is not a game is the serious serious opportunity to make money in the next 9 days :) Short the market guys, get in there, make as much as you can, and the moment Obama says we have an agreement in terms of a solution then sell and reverse your position and go Long. You could double your pension funds in the next 3 weeks!!

hellsbrink
23rd Jul 2011, 15:55
It's all a game.

More like a pissing contest

galaxy flyer
23rd Jul 2011, 17:26
Henry

Does the name Nick Leesom ring a bell?

GF

Parapunter
23rd Jul 2011, 17:28
No. Who's Nick Leesom?

SpringHeeledJack
23rd Jul 2011, 17:29
Indeed, it might have some Baring(s) on the outcome :p


SHJ

con-pilot
23rd Jul 2011, 17:34
Does the name Nick Leesom ring a bell?



Do you mean Leeson?

911slf
23rd Jul 2011, 17:37
I will resist the desire to be political, not least because I have never changed anyone else's views and would not expect to be successful here.

But I have read and been impressed by 'The Black Swan' by Nicholas Naseem Taleb. Published in 2007 it predicted the 2008 crash including the failure of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. The author warned that there was no such thing as a safe investment. When pressed he stated that 85% of his own money was in US Government Bonds 'the safest investment on the planet'.:hmm::hmm::hmm::hmm:

KAG
23rd Jul 2011, 18:27
We already got David Copperfield, now The black swan...
Well well well...
I am more concerned now than before this thread.
Still counting down.

SpringHeeledJack
23rd Jul 2011, 18:59
It's all a game. But what is not a game is the serious serious opportunity to make money in the next 9 days

And who is to say that either directly or indirectly the players are doing indeed that, knowing full well that the uncertainty moves markets. The little problem is that despite all the market manipulation and make-believe money being conjured out of thin air, the closer to the date we come the greater the chance of contagion elsewhere. Interesting times.



SHJ

KAG
23rd Jul 2011, 19:13
Sorry Hellsbrink, didn't read your post earlier:
KAG
Do you REALLY think Obaba is going to let the US default?
Obama you mean right? I remember posters here use to call him Obama Laden, but since he caught Bin Laden I haven't seen his name written that way anymore. I wouldn't play with his name, it goes nowhere.

Honestly? I am sure he doesn't want the US to default. 100% sure.
Now can I be sure of what will happen in 9 days? No I am not.
And the more time pass by, the more I feel unconfortable: I would hate an other recession.

Metro man
24th Jul 2011, 05:09
U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time (http://www.usdebtclock.org/)

rjtjrt
24th Jul 2011, 06:16
Graphical depition of how much a million, billion, and 15 Trillion is.

A visualization of US debt (credit card bill) stacked in 100 dollar bills (http://www.wtfnoway.com/)

John

Henry09
24th Jul 2011, 06:18
The thing is, the debt clock and the debt itself is a complete nonsense. There is absolutely no need for any US Citizen to have to pay direct taxes. In its simplest terms the system works like this:

Congress wants a large amount of money, but can only get that money from taxation methods other than direct tax. Lets say it wants a trillion for something, but only has 700 billion. It asks the Fed for 300 billion more. The Fed turn on the printing machines and give the Government 300 billion. This 300 is the deficit and that is added on to the 'national debt'. The national debt must be paid back to the fed by real sweat off the backs of the American worker. Remember 100% of direct tax in the US goes back to the Fed and it's cartel of European bankers, not one cent is spent on or in the US. The truth is the US can survive without any form of direct tax on it's citizens. In simplest terms all it needs to do is print what money it wants itself. That is in effect what it is doing but rather than just print it, they use a middle man to avoid it just looking like a counterfeit scam, the middle man then needs 'paying back' and that is where your direct tax dollars go.

The American people are suffering from the result of a major con that was implemented 100 years ago.

All Americans should read this and weep, and after they have finished weeping dust those guns off and sort it out! A longish article, but if you are a US citizen well worth the read, particularly the latter half. Lots of robust referencing.


Why an Income Tax is Not Necessary
to Fund the U.S. Government

Why An Income Tax is NOT Necessary to Fund the U.S. Government (http://www.devvy.com/notax.html)

arcniz
24th Jul 2011, 12:39
The whole tawdry scene of melodrama and handwringing about increasing the OFFICIAL debt level of the US resembles, more than anything else, a ploy to sell a few more watered drinks before closing hour at a cheap and tawdry bar which last saw good times quite a while ago, where now the worn babes in the sweaty dripping chorus line can barely walk onstage for all the exercise they've been having out back, conferring with their constituents behind the curtains, out of view from the sullen crowd, but also sadly out of what it takes to get the full asking price for their uninspired clutch-and-roll with the green.

The pimply troupe of alternately drowsy and then suddenly, magically hyper-active vintage poli-tarts struts back and forth on that creaky stage, hardly amusing anyone with little jibs and jabs of bony parts insufficiently teasing the sodden, disinterested audience, the last ones bored, drunk, or lonely enough to stay for watching this final untitillating sad repetition of human waste and wanton criminality-- imperfectly accomplished -- intended to be inspiring some enthusiastic instinctual juices while prognosticating futures alluring and provocative -- but abysmally failing there, as well as elsewhere -- so that that barely anything they might do counts any more to the regulars who've seen it all before (a little sadder performing and more desperately flawed each time around), long since out of touch with the nominal purpose of creative whoring that inspires and motivates the process - on a good day, with little tugs and twirls at the few thin greasy strings indiscretely leading reddened tired eyes to their scarred, rutted, and far-too-often visited inner bits which show the real tally of their labours far more clearly than do the ledgers.

"We need some new meat," shouts a fellow in the smoke and gloom.

"Summat better in the stretch," says another.

"Or at least something to look forward for across the days and weeks and years," mutters a third, "a little cause to dream."

"Naah," a very tall fellow quietly says, "it's all in balance -- they're fiscally screwed out and so are we. It's Closing time -- mind your way out, and stay careful on the road!"

Henry09
24th Jul 2011, 14:10
arcniz

top post, write some more, I've read the last one 4 times now, brilliant.

KAG
24th Jul 2011, 15:35
Count down: 8 days

arcniz
25th Jul 2011, 09:55
http://www.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_606w/WashingtonPost/Content/Blogs/ezra-klein/StandingArt/debt%20ceiling%20one%20graph.jpg?uuid=VSZ7mK74EeCzBdL-DJ10PA

Image showing growth of US debt (link courtesy of the Washington Post).

Henry09
25th Jul 2011, 10:24
Interesting to see that whilst in China, Clinton has been reassuring the Chinese that the US will definitely come to a solution regarding the US debt ceiling. Clinton said that what is going on right now is just 'political wrangling'! Obama and co allegedly worked most of the weekend and a solution (albeit promised for the opening of the Asian markets) was not forthcoming. Do they (the politicians) understand that this 'just political wrangling', ie a bloody big game, will be costing companies billions of dollars this week as nervous investors sell off. their (politicians) irresponsibility is staggering. That said on a purely personal note I am happy that the performance of the Government was so predictable, as the short position I opened on Friday came to a blistering result by market open this morning. If Obama and the Rep's and Dem's can keep this up all week then it could be early retirement time :)

SASless
25th Jul 2011, 15:00
Arcniz,

Does your source for the graph show one for which party held Congress as opposed to the White House?

That will be the telling chart!

If you look at the bottom of your posted chart you can see where the biggest spending increases happened but it is not as easy to see as in the chart you posted.

This article shows some very interesting comparisons....remembering it is Congress that authorizes the spending and the President either approves or vetoes the Spending Bills.

The Debt, Who's Responsible (http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeef1s7/richardpersingcom22/id15.html)

Henry09
25th Jul 2011, 15:17
SASless

If you click on the link in my post 25, you will see a table that breaks down the deficit by respective Governments and who was in which house at the time. I tried to cut and paste with no success. The table is only a short way down, followed by two good links.

KAG
25th Jul 2011, 15:51
Timothy Geithner said on sunday the United States will not default on its debt.

However the debt ceiling has been reached since may already. 2nd of August is the date the tresury won't accept to pay for anything anymore... That is really the final count down. It is serious.

hellsbrink
25th Jul 2011, 16:21
Does your source for the graph show one for which party held Congress as opposed to the White House?

I thought that was what the two bits under the graph were, "House" (of Representatives) and "Senate".

KAG
25th Jul 2011, 16:35
Ignition sequence start

CATIII-NDB
25th Jul 2011, 17:57
That graph arcniz, is pretty much an exponential growth curve, and I think more or less independent of the "Party" in government.

A trend developing independently of the actions: or more likely, lack of them by the "Political Establishment".

By inverting the underlying function you will obtain the graph of a function that closely resembles the freefall path of a large explosive object dropped from an aeroplane travelling at a low % of the local speed of sound.

The afore-mentioned graph closely resembles the probability of the US not defaulting on its debts. Zero being the end of closed domain of the output.

What's really worring is that no US government has really had an effect , if the origional data is accurate. Then the underlying problem is indemic to the elements controlling spending in the society.

I suppose any US long dated bond holder has long since had a good look at the data we are seeing here and is very quiety, offloading the things at a considerable discount to face value.

Sell, Sell and Sell again. The local contra-temps being discussed here is the tip of a very big iceberg - They proabably realise in a dim sort of way that the game's up.

CAT III

CATIII-NDB
25th Jul 2011, 18:10
Look on the bright side: We can use all those Dollars floating about as an interim source of biodgradeable fuel, for when the Oil suppliers want to be paiid in Gold.

Remember very cloud has a silver lining, especially one from a "Quantitive Easing pile" of promisary notes of essentially no intrinsic value.

The lack of detailed coverage of this situation in the UK is absolutely amaizing.

CAT III

KAG
25th Jul 2011, 18:17
Even with a little risk of default aknowledged by many economists, the US still have the maximum rating "AAA", which means no risk.


The 3 american private rating agencies are guilty of propaganda and speculation against the GIIPS, it appears very clearly now. If the US had the Spain rating for the same period of time, they would default RIGHT NOW. Isn't that mad?

Matari
25th Jul 2011, 18:38
If / when the credit agencies downgrade the US from "AAA" to "AA," then "AA" becomes the new "AAA." Wrap your head around that one.

As much as it pains Europeans to realize it, the US is the electric train that runs around the bottom of the Christmas tree. Europe is all the little motionless pieces, interesting to look at nonetheless.

SpringHeeledJack
25th Jul 2011, 18:47
The lack of detailed coverage of this situation in the UK is absolutely amaizing.

Vested interests prefer it that way (that includes our government) :ugh: and if the good citizens really knew of the potential consequences should things go awry, well it won't be especially pretty.

Even with a little risk of default aknowledged by many economists, the US still have the maximum rating "AAA", which means no risk.


I guess that having the largest military and influence in the world gives you a few extra points in your favour. As always, at some point in time, the truth will out and then ratings won't matter much.



SHJ

Henry09
25th Jul 2011, 19:22
As much as it pains Europeans to realize it, the US is the electric train that runs around the bottom of the Christmas tree. Europe is all the little motionless pieces, interesting to look at nonetheless.

Arrogance all gift wrapped. Be careful, you are about to be derailed, and the new Chinese train put on the track The Europeans have enough problems of their own, I really don't think they care, but the problems facing the US will all be home grown, and when you are discarded off the Christmas tree, and it's not if but when, then you will realise the fiscal folly of your successive Governments. Keep those printing presses running! Funny how every cent of your direct taxes are going to Europeans, now that's got to pain Americans.

KAG
25th Jul 2011, 19:57
Matari: If / when the credit agencies downgrade the US from "AAA" to "AA," then "AA" becomes the new "AAA." Wrap your head around that one.Did you even realize that many other countries (and very stables ones for some of them) are rated AAA when you wrote your post? Most of the biggest countries of Europe are "AAA" as an example...

Fot the remaining of your post: US arrogance is past history, welcome to the 21 st century, get use to it and fast.

Finally Europe montionless? Really? within a few years an Union, then a completely new money for 17 countries, and right now a new politic concerning economy evolving as we speak. Europe Motionless? Most of its institution didn't even exist a few years back, you must be joking.

cavortingcheetah
25th Jul 2011, 20:17
Here is the previously posted graph with the debt initiator platforms filled in.
Mr Obama has certainly excelled himself. His profligacy is unsurpassed.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/54236000/gif/_54236326_us_debt_464_corr.gif



Europe is fast becoming a national socialist workers state where the party line must be toed and those in power in the capital kowtowed to. Interesting that Rudolph Hesse's body was disinterred from the family burial place this past weekend and burnt. A crisis of competition perhaps from the 21st century speerhead capitals of Brussels and Strasbourg?

Henry09
25th Jul 2011, 20:28
Some very interesting stats attached to that graph!

Now come on Cavortingcheetah, you are being picky with what you are choosing to say. I am no Democrat, nor of course am I republican, but it does all make me laugh.

What the graph shows and all of the data in the government website it comes from is that since the records displayed on the graph the average annual increase in the deficit when the Dems have had Congress is 4%, and the average annual increase in the deficit whilst the Republicans are in Congress is ..9%. Draw whatever conclusions from that that you will, but as it's Congress that spends and approves the money, then how do we blame one man?

KAG
25th Jul 2011, 20:36
Bush legacy to Obama in 2008: 2 wars and the biggest financial/economy crisis since 1929... Obama has been foolish to accept the challenge as any shortsighted individual will held him responsible...
Is that the first black US president destiny to witness the US decline? I hope not.

KAG
25th Jul 2011, 20:44
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/26/us/politics/26fiscal.html?_r=1&hpWASHINGTON – House Republicans intend to push for a vote this week on a two-step plan that would allow the federal debt limit to immediately rise by about $1 trillion and tie a second increase next year to the ability of a new joint Congressional committee to produce more deficit reduction.

11Fan
26th Jul 2011, 01:10
President Obama to address the Debt Ceiling issue at 2100 Eastern. It will be followed with a Republican response.

President Obama will use the bully pulpit in prime time tonight and House Speaker John Boehner will give Republicans side immediately after as the two take their party’s separate cases to the American people in a high stakes and last-minute fight over the debt ceiling.

President Obama to Address the Nation Live in Prime Time Tonight on Debt Talks - The Note (http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2011/07/president-obama-to-address-the-nation-live-in-prime-time-tonight-on-debt-talks.html)

Should make tomorrow a little more interesting.

SASless
26th Jul 2011, 01:59
Who is blaming one Man.....beyond remembering how seldom a President has ever vetoed a Spending Bill! Dubya did not until the last year of his eight unless I am wrong and he never did! Obama surely hasn't declined to spend as much money as possible!

It is a pox on both Parties....each are just as guilty....the rate of increase of late proves we are on an unsustainable path....yet neither Party today is ready to do the right but hard thing.....CUT Spending....really CUT!

Only those Freshmen members of Congress are standing tall and they are being made out by the media, White House, and the Old Bunch....as being Rebels, stupid, and radical.

Can we not see where the problem lies?

Git the Pitchforks out folks.....and take a stroll up to DC!

11Fan
26th Jul 2011, 02:04
Yes indeed, the 2012 Election Season has begun and he's already playing the Class Warfare Card as well as displaying symptoms of Chicken Little Syndrome.

And Oh my God, he's evoking Reagan :eek:

He really sounds desperate. He doesn't want to go through this again before the next election.

11Fan
26th Jul 2011, 02:24
From The Washington Post

House Speaker John A. Boehner (R-Ohio) said in a prime-time address Monday night that he intends to continue pushing a short-term raise in the federal debt ceiling, despite President Obama's objection that such a move does not solve the problem.

"The solution to this crisis is not complicated. ... We are up to the task, and I hope President Obama will join us," Boehner said. The speaker said that, in negotiations with Obama over a long-term debt deal, "I made a sincere effort to work with the president. ... I gave it my all. Unfortunately, the president could not take yes for an answer." He added: "The president wanted a blank check six months ago, and he wants a blank check today,. This is not going to happen."

Henry09
26th Jul 2011, 02:57
Some genuine questions to aid understanding if anyone can indulge me.

Isn't it a little bit of an odd situation in that this seems to be effectively being decided by a one on one engagement, the President and Boehner? One can't help wonder reading the snippet from the Washington Post from 11Fan, who is it who is actually in Charge. Seems authority is being usurped from POTUS? Are the arguments that Boehner puts forward a bi-partisan thing? i.e is he arguing for the house or the republicans? What is the Senate's role in this monumental decision? I am not saying the (any) Presidents ideas and policies should never be challenged and/or voted out, but my impression is that by engaging in this one on one sparring any President leaves himself wide open to having his entire leadership, whipped from under his feet, surely the President must have others to do the dirty work? I am not sure I am communicating this to well, I hope enough to get the gist of my thoughts. My notion has always been that Presidents spar with other Presidents and Heads of State, and doing it one on one with someone domestically is a dangerous game.

SASless
26th Jul 2011, 03:02
He says over spending is the problem....but completely ignores his own spending....between four and five Trillion in debt is it?

Dubya's fault, Congress's fault, Repbulican's fault, Tea Party Freshmen's Fault, downturn in the Economy reducing revenue, Corporate Jet Owner's Fault, Rich folks fault......Hello Barry....this is three years into your final term in office!

Compromise is a dirty word in DC he says....remember the comments "I won....deal with it!.....and They can ride in back!"?

The House passes a Cut, Cap, and Balance Bill...sends it to the Senate and the Democrats on a party line vote.....kill it without any debate whatsoever!

Without even knowing what was in the Proposed Bill....Barry said he would Veto it!

I suppose the old saying....."Lead, Follow, or Get the Hell out of the way!" applies here. Time for Barry to shut up, sit down, and get his pen out to sign whatever Congress sends to him after the House and Senate work out a deal.

Shhhheeeeeeeitttt! Doc! What a Tosser!

11Fan
26th Jul 2011, 03:39
Henry,

who is it who is actually in Charge.

I'm beginning to have faith that it is the People again.

but my impression is that by engaging in this one on one sparring any President leaves himself wide open to having his entire leadership, whipped from under his feet,

Precisely. He seems to have forgotten that he's got a "Temp" job.

My notion has always been that Presidents spar with other Presidents and Heads of State, and doing it one on one with someone domestically is a dangerous game.

By design, we have three branches of Government. The President has elected to take the fight to the other two. The first when he chastised the Supreme Court, and more recently, the Speaker of the House. Indeed it is a dangerous game, and the the President is holding very few chips.

The entire House is elected every two years, so if they run seriously afoul of public sentiment, they can be thrown out by the electorate.

One of the best things about our Republic. Every two years we have the opportunity to overthrow the Government.

Colors altered so not to be confused with another poster ;)

Henry09
26th Jul 2011, 03:45
BandAide, 11Fan

Thanks:ok:

lomapaseo
26th Jul 2011, 05:11
The voters are going to fire some folks come the next elections.

Obama tried to be presedential, it didn't solve the problem. Once again Congress is bigger than one man with a veto pen. The best thing Obama can do is announced that in this case where time is of the essence and his meetings failed to get congress to agree, that he will not use his veto power in a way that causes harm to the country by delaying a solution no matter how temporary. At least that way we can sort out who in congress we want to replace without blaming it solely on a president.

No matter what comes of this now, they are definitely going to be a lot of new faces in congress over the next 4 years.

I'll be damned if I'm going to be held hostage like this again by the same players

cavortingcheetah
26th Jul 2011, 07:17
The Dodd-Frank Wall Street Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act, signed into law by Obama on July21, 2010, when the deficit was a trillion $$$ or so less than today. What an amazing piece of legislation the act is. Title VII, for example, deals with Wall Street transparency and accountability which is of course a very good thing to be able to look through, darkly. But what a shame that nowhere in that piece of Democrat inspired legislation was there any part that would or could deal with the deficit which has grown in exponential terms since the accession of President Obama and the ineffective wet band aid that is Obamacare. But even back in 2010, any mention of the impending and easily foreseeable deficit problems would have impacted badly on the second election term attempt. This is precisely one of the main bones of contention between Obama and Boehner right now. Obama wants to sweep the deficit under the carpet until after the next presidential elections in 2012. The Republicans do not wish to do this. Obama has consistently played to the gallery at the expense of what may or may not be his country. He is to the USA as Gordon Brown was to Britain, an economic enemy of first class destructive power.

stuckgear
26th Jul 2011, 08:15
As much as it pains Europeans to realize it, the US is the electric train that runs around the bottom of the Christmas tree. Europe is all the little motionless pieces, interesting to look at nonetheless.


yeah OK Matari

Bankersalmanac.com - Bank List - Top Banks in the World (http://www.bankersalmanac.com/addcon/infobank/bank-rankings.aspx)

the top banks worldwide ranked on total assets in US$

top nine.. 5 European banks, 3 Far East, spot 9 to a US bank

Next nine., 5 European, 3 Far Eastern, 1 US bank

Next nine again. 7 European Banks, 2 US banks

Next Nine again.. 4 European Banks, 3 Far East, 1 Canadian, 1 Ozzie bank

Next nine again.. 5 European Banks, 2 Far East, 1 Canadian, 1 Ozzie bank

Last 5.... 3 European Banks, 1 Canadian, 1 Ozzie bank

Henry09
26th Jul 2011, 08:18
SASless

It is a pox on both Parties....each are just as guilty....the rate of increase of late proves we are on an unsustainable path....yet neither Party today is ready to do the right but hard thing.....CUT Spending....really CUT!

Only those Freshmen members of Congress are standing tall and they are being made out by the media, White House, and the Old Bunch....as being Rebels, stupid, and radical.

Can we not see where the problem lies?

Git the Pitchforks out folks.....and take a stroll up to DC! My Bold.

One of the few, very sensible things to be written on this thread, or the hamster wheel thread.

The politicians on both sides have all US citizens firmly by the scrotum while they (the people) continue to argue and bitch about the other party being at fault. I don't imagine Obama and Boehner are at each others throats at all behind closed doors, it's probably more like "right mate, how do we string this out for another 4 days, tell you what, you blame me and I will blame you...agreed...great, lets watch a another ball game then go hold a press conference".

Look at the graph above, this is not something that has been sprung on the nation overnight. And of course it will all start to grow exponentially, the greater the debt, the greater the interest payments etc etc. And the interest and debt have been compounding for the last 20 years. You think it's scary now, hell wait another 5 years, and they will need the shirts off your backs to pay back the interest alone.

Cavorting, I gave you a hint in my last reply to you. You can blame Barry all you like but the FACT is that since the mid 80's regardless of who has been President, when Republicans have had the house they have increased deficit by 9% per year, and the Dems 4%, they are facts.

All you are all doing is blaming the other party or blaming the other guy, and it is complete and utter bull. There is not one economist out there who is worth their salt that attributes any of the current mess solely to Obama, and Obama supporters constantly defer responsibility back to Bush.

There is no way that the US can cut it's deficit by spending cuts alone, mathematically it is futile. You can save one trillion next year if you want, and the year after, that amount is going to be added on interest to your current deficit. It won't be long before that 1 trillion a year interest turns to 2 trillion, thats the way compounding works.

I have said this on a few posts which have been completely ignored by the cousins, so for one last time. You are being completely enslaved by a cartel of European Bankers. They print worthless money at the demand of Congress, and then that money has to be paid back to them, but sadly it is paid back with real money. EVERY single cent that is collected by the IRS in direct taxes, goes to pay the 'National Debt'. The National Debt being the accumulation of annual deficits over the years. The deficits being the extra money that congress got the Fed to print for them. So once again, EVERY single cent is going to a cartel of European Banks, and not one cent is spent on the services you as a tax payer would consider appropriate. Encouraged by the IRS, the US are now bringing in legislation that ALL international banks are required to declare which of their customers are US citizens. The same legislation will also bring in that if you buy more than $600 of Gold then the transaction must be reported to the Government. Why do the IRS have to take such drastic action? Because they are not collecting enough tax to pay the ever increasing debt to their lords and masters, the Bank Cartels.

The dirty deal of 1913, not only sold you away, it also happened to have it that there has not been one constitutional Senate has sat in the house since that time. Check it all out.

The only solution for the US is to tell the Fed and the cartel of Bankers to go screw themselves, take your printers back, and print your own green Backs again. Tell the bankers they have robbed the nation and it's citizens blind for a 100 years, now go do the same to the Chinese. That done, there is absolutely no need for any citizen to pay direct taxes again. You raise all the money you need for running the country from indirect taxation. Your direct taxes simply ALL go to the European Banks.

As SASless has rightly said

Git the Pitchforks out folks.....and take a stroll up to DC

911slf
26th Jul 2011, 09:29
Winston Churchill
'America can be relied on to do the right thing, but only after exhausting all alternatives'.:)

Only trouble is, if the clock stops before all the alternatives have been exhausted.:hmm:

CATIII-NDB
26th Jul 2011, 11:31
Britian; like the USA, but in a frankly dimunitive way: suffers from the same corrosive belief in its own invinceability, both in an ecomonic & militatry sense.

The Russians under Gorbachev were brought to reality in an abrupt way, by the realisation that their spending was destroying their economy.

Britain's political eliete still has not herd the "Penny drop" nor it seems has the USA's political elite too.

Look carefully at the earlier gradients of the graph #29. "Reganomics" is clearly evident. As is the spending under Bush Snr. The Military/Industrial complex has become the Military complex - The industry that once provided the vital export sales, has declined since the early 1970's. The USA has let initaily Japan and then SE Asia ,to do the " Perceived Donkey Work" of manufacture.

Now the sleeping Giant of China has finally flexed its ecomomic muscle.

We in the "West" bought the comparively cheap output frm SE Asia and did not maintain our broader industrial base, with the exeption of the military of course.

I cannot blame Obama as an individual, but I do blame his administration collectively - for "Steady as she goes" War speninging. - The political leverage excercised by the military lobby must be immence. Hence the "Blind Stupidity" of the politico's in nominal charge.

Its now quite literally "Pay back time" - Does anyone know the distribution of the dates of the pay back principles, of these loans.

Confidence in an economy dissapears with a bang not a wimper - Even if they agree a higher ceiling for the level of debt, the damage has allready been done.

Its time now; for the USA to start reducing its WMD arsenal and possibly withdrawing in part, its military presence from Asia & Europe.

It looks as if its when, and not if the USA, defaults in part on its issued bond base.

At least the country can feed its self.

CAT III

KAG
26th Jul 2011, 12:21
2 notes:


-1- Henry: you have a very personal way to explain the debt.
You forgot 2 points:
*If all the taxes were used to reimbourse the debt, there would be no debt.
*China completely desapeared from your US debt issue comprehension.



-2- some like to evaluate the debt increase rate statistics and the correlation with the politic color of the president at the time. Please don't forget one important statistics: the economic growth (or a the opposite: recession). Obama didn't create the international economic/financial turmoil that appeared in 2008. The debt will have increased anyway dramatically whoever the president.



My bet: by the end of the week we will possibly be able to abort the count down as an agreement will be set. If this is the case, the same problem will appear a bit later anyway.

KAG
26th Jul 2011, 12:48
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/global/backgrounds/transparentBG.gif

WASHINGTON — The Democratic-led Senate and Republican-led House on Monday barreled toward a showdown on competing plans to cut spending and raise the debt limit as a resolution to the intensifying crisis remained farther from sight just one week before a possible federal default.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/26/us/politics/26fiscal.html?_r=1&hp


Still very interesting to notice the perfect equation: possible default=AAA

CATIII-NDB
26th Jul 2011, 13:20
Just who are the Major US bond holders, both Governmental & US Company bonds - I suspect from an uninformed viewpoint; its Japan, China and possibly the magor European Banks & Pension funds togather with a number of far eastern soverign wealth funds.

I'm bald to all intents and cannot afford a "Haircut" in any respect.

More seriously, my above list may explain some of the "superficial coverage" in the UK - I cannot afford the "Financial Times" so what they are saying is a big omission in my commentary.

CAT III

Henry09
26th Jul 2011, 13:24
KAG

So is the total direct income tax on the citizens of the USA 14 Trillion per year?


CatIII

The top 4 holders of US debt are (give or take a couple of billion)

no 4. Japan about 865 B

No 3 China about 895 B

No 2 'Others'! 1.4 Trillion (a collection of banking organisations and private/corporate and non-corporate businesses.

No 1. Stomping home at a massive 5.6 Trillion Dollars of owned US Debt it is the ...Federal Reserve.

So I stand by everything I have said KAG, no need to mention the Chinese, they are small fry compared to the Fed and the Fed get their money first.

CatIII
try here for a simple representation of who owns what. Surprisingly the UK are in at number 7.

News Headlines (http://www.cnbc.com/id/29880401/The_Biggest_Holders_of_US_Government_Debt?slide=1)

KAG
26th Jul 2011, 13:43
Do you mean your goal is to reimburse everything today?

This debt level is the result of many years of no payment. This is valid for almost any western country.

Henry09
26th Jul 2011, 13:54
KAG

Do you mean your goal is to reimburse everything today?

Of course not, I suggested no such thing did I?

You said


1- Henry: you have a very personal way to explain the debt.
You forgot 2 points:
*If all the taxes were used to reimbourse the debt, there would be no debt.
*China completely desapeared from your US debt issue comprehension..

All the direct income taxes are being used just to service the debt, there is no way of paying it off.

SASless
26th Jul 2011, 13:54
11Fan.....Danger Will Robinson! Danger!

Pick the wrong color and find yourself taking a vacation!:uhoh:

CATIII-NDB
26th Jul 2011, 14:01
The difference between the US and virtually every other country is the absolute scale of the problem.

A default will devalue assetts held all around the world. - Thanks Henry - Those figs are the "Real Beef of the Matter"

At No 7 - Oh bugger that's an unwelcome surprise - I'm bald and cannot afford another "Haircut"

I'm summoning up the ghost of Edwin L Bernays - Do a wiki about him ? - If the name's new. To cheer me up. [not].

No wonder coverage in the UK has been "Complentative"

CAT III (On a crumbling paper thin roof) -

PS What the "B.Hell" is the UK doing increasing its holdings of US Debt by 246% this year. Is GB, still running the Treasury from a phonebox in Pitthodre

Any one here familiar with the phomenon of "Negative Panic".

.

galaxy flyer
26th Jul 2011, 14:04
CAT IIINDB

If military spending were the cause of the debt problem for the US, I'd agree, but it is clearly not. The US spends 3.9% of GDP on military, a near all-time low. Critics on the Left use military spending like this on the Right bleat on about foreign aid or waste. The real spending problem is in entitlements, just like it is in Europe. We simply cannot have over 50% of the population receiving various forms of government checks.

The modern social welfare has been exposed as bankrupt, morally and financially.

GF

KAG
26th Jul 2011, 14:05
Yes Henry.
But I am not too sure of what you suggest. A default?

CATIII-NDB
26th Jul 2011, 14:21
Yep I was not falling into the trap of automatically blaming Defence/Foreign wars - Its the shape of the graph #29 that worries me.

Sorry for PS to the other post but my left false Eyeball fell out when I followed the link. - What the Hell are the UK Instutions upto ? -

If those bonds are reduced in value by a "Structured Default" Say only 70% of the face value is honoured then the UK banks will try to build their assetts by hammering their domestic customer base. - Pensions shot to crap too.

I.e. The farepaying Passengers that the Airlines rely on in part for their revenues.


CAT III

KAG
26th Jul 2011, 14:27
United States public debt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt)
Click on the link above and scroll down to "Foreign ownership"

As of January 2011, foreigners owned $4.45 trillion of U.S. debt, or approximately 47% of the debt held by the public of $9.49 trillion and 32% of the total debt of $14.1 trillion. The largest holders were the central banks of China, Japan, the United Kingdom and Brazil. The share held by foreign governments has grown over time, rising from 25% of the public debt in 2007 and 13% in 1988.

As of May 2011 the largest single holder of U.S. government debt was China, with 26 percent of all foreign-held U.S. Treasury securities. China's holdings of government debt, as a percentage of all foreign-held government debt, have decreased a bit over the last year, but are up significantly since 2000 (when China held just 6 percent of all foreign-held U.S. Treasury securities).



I just ask to understand Henry. You may be right with your numbers, me I am not an economist, I just read what I can find, it is very possible I misunderstand it because there are several kind of debts.

Henry09
26th Jul 2011, 14:31
Galaxy

We simply cannot have over 50% of the population receiving various forms of government checks.

I agree, but what is the alternative? That is 50% of the population! Now that's a vote turner! Also, the French aristocracy found out to their dismay the consequences of keeping the poor poor and giving them nothing. The result would eventually be anarchy. At least in India and other such countries, the poor are not given any expectations or indeed rights, the US is in a situation with its citizens that it cannot back track from. I cannot think of a solution I am afraid, but it is an anchor around the neck of the US.


KAG

If I knew the answer mate, I would be on an aircraft to Washington charging 50 Mill for the service :)

What to do? Continuing to service the debt just allows the debt to grow larger and does not permit payments associated with increases in expenditure for the various Government projects.It is the classic 'minimum payment on a credit card debt situation'. It There is no flexibility I believe to reduce the debt. The austerity measures would need to be on a scale the US people would never accept. I honestly believe the only way out for the US is to take control of it's central bank itself. It is easy to prove in court that the Fed Reserve is unconstitutional. Tell the rest of the world their bonds are safe and tell the Federal Reserve to close shop, services no longer required, their debt is legally worthless and won't be paid. They have had enough from the US over the last 100 years for simply printing money which had to be paid back via taxes, and acting as an accounting service.

As far as anything less dramatic goes, I don't see a solution at all. The increase in the debt ceiling will just alleviate the problem for another year, and then we will be back at it. Every President and party that owns the House will have to deal with this from now on, so why not get rid of the problem.

Is that a default, who needs to know, just Nationalise the Fed and then you can do what you like with the 5.6 Trillion debt :)

Wiley
26th Jul 2011, 14:32
Apologies if someone's posted this already. The old adage "a picture is worth a thousand words" applies.

A visualization of US debt (credit card bill) stacked in 100 dollar bills (http://www.wtfnoway.com/)

Henry09
26th Jul 2011, 14:38
KAG

Your figures above for China are about right. Note they own about 25% of all foreign owned debt, not the total debt. They own 890 odd billion and have reduced it from 950 Billion in 2009 (all figures rounded up and off the top of my head, but almost exact) China is the single nation with the largest amount of debt owned, HOWEVER, at number two is the collection of world-wide individual investors, private, corporate and non corporate business and banks, that total 1.4 Trillion. The largest debt held by any organisation are the collection of private banks that make up the Federal reserve. They own 5.6 Trillion in debt.

Your bold red font should read the largest foreign nations holding debt.

CATIII-NDB
26th Jul 2011, 14:40
A trillion - thats 10 to the power 12. If you prefer 1,000,000,000,000 - Or about the number of Bacteria on the surface of the human body [Estimated].

I think we will have to start imagining the US Debt in terms of "Congress Persons" - CP's - The danger here is that the numbers loose their meaning and reality files out of the window.

15.4 and increasing.

CAT III

KAG
26th Jul 2011, 14:42
Wiley please have a look at the post #24 from rjtjrt.
Interesting visualization anyway.


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Alright I see thanks Henry.

KAG
26th Jul 2011, 14:50
Consequences of not raising the debt ceiling

At issue is that the failure to extend the limit may leave the federal government unable to pay all its obligations, including paying interest on existing debt, a default that could have serious repercussions. This would probably include causing panic in bond markets and damaging the economic recovery from the Great Recession.

Former Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers warned of serious consequences of a default in July 2011, including: (a) higher borrowing costs for the U.S. government (as much as 1% or $150 billion/year in additional interest costs) and (b) the equivalent of bank runs on the money and other financial markets, potentially as severe as September 2008. Bank failures and a potential bank run, curbed by government intervention, were a major catalyst of the Global Financial Crisis that caused the Great Recession.

In response to Jim DeMint and other Republican Senators, who suggested that the current level of the debt ceiling could be maintained by prioritizing payments on the debt above other government spending, Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner wrote a letter of reply in late June. He said that this would require "cutting roughly 40 percent of all government payments", which could only be achieved by "selectively defaulting on obligations previously approved by Congress". He argues that this would harm the reputation of the United States so severely that there is "no guarantee that investors would continue to re-invest in new Treasury securities", forcing the government to repay the principal on existing debt as it matures, which it would be unable to do under any conceivable circumstances. He concluded: "There is no alternative to enactment of a timely increase in the debt limit."

2011 US debt ceiling crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_US_debt_ceiling_crisis)

CATIII-NDB
26th Jul 2011, 15:12
Thanks - The scarey bit.

'At issue is that the failure to extend the limit may leave the federal government unable to pay all its obligations, including paying interest on existing debt'

So possibly, no concevable chance; of paying back the principle amounts of exsisting debts as they become due. That equals "Default" in my book.

The consequences for the Banks depositors are alarming - I'm not trying to induce a panic, but the full statement says it all. - A disaster waiting to happen.


CAT III

KAG
26th Jul 2011, 15:22
Count down: 7 days

CATIII-NDB
26th Jul 2011, 15:25
In the final paragrah there appears to be an admission of the fact that a proportion of the new debt being sold, is to repay the principle on exsisting debt as it matures (becomes due). We have here a "Runaway" system - Hence the exponential characteristics of the accumulating debt curve.

There is a geometric relationship between the level of exsisting debt and the new debt being issued. The debt is feeding its self by the issue of new debt !!!

That link nust be broken by repaying the debts as they mature from income not borrowing.

There is no alternative to this

CAT III

PS [The seriousness of the situation is not being communicated to the populace of the UK by the media] - That is scandelous.

KAG
26th Jul 2011, 15:29
Well, I was already worried enough like that...

I was planning to leave China this year to come back to Europe... I'd better wait and see I guess...

Henry09
26th Jul 2011, 15:33
At this moment, I am trading the market (one of them), simply due to this situation and doing very nicely. But what is clear to see is that the world traders are a little complacent at the moment as everybody is clearly expecting a deal to be struck, even if it is at the 11th hour. It's a little bit like the last time the US was held hostage recently with the budget for the public purse strings. The market is no where near as volatile as it could be with all of the negative news coming out at the moment, however, if we go in to the weekend with the situation unresolved then the level of uncertainty will be acute, and Monday will see some serious and very painful (for some) volatility in world markets. The Obama/Boehner game is going to cost many people much over the next 5 days if they don't pull their finger out and come up with a solution. I know they will, but they seem so far apart at the moment, I don't know how they will do it.

SASless
26th Jul 2011, 15:37
The market has been relatively steady with only minor losses for the past few days....care to define "nicely"?

Day Traders guess correctly about as often as they don't over the long term has been my experience.

I have never met a day trader that has ever been willing to show proof of his success.....although I am sure there are some that do quite well.

Henry09
26th Jul 2011, 15:52
Short the market SASless, simple.

The market has been fairly steady, as I said, no where near the volatility one would expect, everyone expects a solution on time. My analysis from Friday last week is there will be an overall decline in the 4 to 5 days I am looking at. I am currently watching the screens more than jet Bllast :) . Nicely is obviously subjective, but in this case is 55 points yesterday morning, 40 in the afternoon, 43 (overnight) this morning and 45 so far this afternoon. I am not trading the US markets and am in for 3 figures per point. The reason many day traders fail is they don't know when to stop and so the tsunami that always comes along has a great chance of hitting them. The less time you spend in the water, the less chance of hitting the big wave. When you are sure of a trend though you need to put your money where your mouth is and it will pay greatly. If you are unsure, be very conservative and have a limit and display discipline. Some traders make a vast amount of money and will never reveal their success or indeed their strategy, they make their money and disappear.

Obviously the minute Barry and Boehmer shake hands and backslap each other, I will be all in Long!

SASless
26th Jul 2011, 17:26
As in some other things....Timing is of the Essence!

Calling the Bottom or the Top is not worth it....make some Dosh then go safe!

Henry09
26th Jul 2011, 18:27
Calling the Bottom or the Top is not worth it....make some Dosh then go safe!

Absolutely!! Make what you are happy with then close your position. If you stay in you might make more, but you could lose a lot more!

KAG
27th Jul 2011, 13:54
Count down: 6 days

Tu.114
27th Jul 2011, 15:06
Please do correct me if I misunderstand something.

Obama and Boehner are not discussing paying back the debts; it all seems to be about heading even deeper into a swamp of debts that reaches up to their neck already - if they are lucky, that is.

Repaying those debts conventionally seems to be out of the question. So the question is not IF, but WHEN all this is going to collapse with all the associated, deeply undesirable consequences. Be it a worldwide economic crisis, a massive devaluation of the Dollar, or whatever else - I think that only few can look forward to this.

Allow me a nasty thought maybe: if this is so, isn´t it better to get over with all this as quickly as possible instead of dragging it on for even longer and to allow the heap of debt to continue growing exponentially, while waiting for an even deeper fall to come?

Again, I stand to be educated...

KAG
27th Jul 2011, 15:10
Economists and analysts are trying to gauge the costs to the economy and consumers if the United States loses its solid-gold credit rating — a move that appears more likely now that the standoff in Washington over government spending has calcified.



Some economists say the effects of lowering the federal government’s credit rating to AA from AAA can be measured in the billions of dollars in increased borrowing costs for the government, and in the billions more that consumers, corporations, states and municipalities will have to pay for their credit. It could also erode consumer and business confidence, slowing even further the economy and job creation.

KAG
27th Jul 2011, 15:12
Repaying those debts conventionally seems to be out of the question. So the question is not IF, but WHEN all this is going to collapse with all the associated, deeply undesirable consequences.
There is still the possibility of less spending, and more repayment, over a long period of time.

Otherwise the western world may aswell just fall down...

bearfoil
27th Jul 2011, 15:15
Tu.144

A bit of my thunder stolen. If fear of "Credit Smirch" is driving the kerfuffel, we are lost.

Our credit, if vulnerable, would only improve if we paid down the debt, and slashed our obsessive deficit spending.

No Lifting the ceiling. Too harsh? Define Harsh.

WE CUT THREE TRILLION over ten years!! Meanwhile, pushing a deficit of close to two trillion per, means our debt load will have increased by Seventeen Trillion in those ten years.

Stop Borrowing money in a show to pay interest on previously borrowed money!

What would we do if the FED went bust, and Congress couldn't be paid?


celebrate




If not now, when?

Tu.114
27th Jul 2011, 16:06
KAG,

There is still the possibility of less spending, and more repayment, over a long period of time.


Yes, there definitely is. But forgive my scepticism - a country, and more so a superpower, has a certain need for money to fulfill the role it has assumed. Now, if this country can not only not come up with the required funding by itself (relying heavily on loans), but then also decides to divert much of the internally created revenue to debt repayment, this will definitely mean a drastic change to the country. And this country being the USA, this change can likely be best likened to the worldwide impact the dissolution of the USSR had - at least. The USSR never was perceived a gold standard for debtors after all; the impact to the financial system seemed to be negligible unlike this time.

Now is there any US politician with the guts to take this choice and put the USA on a strict austerity diet? While this would mean a return to fiscal sanity, it comes at quite a price beginning likely with him becoming the most unpopular politician alive; not to mention the national and worldwide impact... It is much easier to drag this decision on and hand the hot potato over to anyone subsequent.

Rock and a hard place, I would say...

Henry09
27th Jul 2011, 16:10
Bear
What would we do if the FED went bust, and Congress couldn't be paid?

Take your printing presses back and print your own. :)

The Fed served a purpose 80-100 years ago, but why they are still in existence is beyond me. The only way to avoid a world recession and the collapse of the dollar, is to declare the Fed illegal as it is unconstitutional and wipe off in one foul stroke 5.6 trillion. All the fed are doing is printing money for you to pay the debt back you already have. You then have to pay the Fed back for that service with real tax dollars. The system cannot sustain itself much longer. The only real options therefore are to pi** off (seriously pi** off) the 13 or so European Banks/Family institutions that constitute the Fed and get rid of them or allow the US to enter the absolutely unavoidable spiral into financial oblivion. Simples.

As you rightly point out Bear, the savings that are proposed are simply non effective and ludicrous. Much pain would be felt by the average US citizen for absolutely no gain whatsoever, as the interest is now compounding so quickly in 10 years the numbers will be stupid, and it will all be going to the fed with the exception of about 8 Trillion currently owed around the world.

Time to stop blaming Obama and Bush and Democrats and Republicans. There is no president or potential president alive that could have stopped the US hitting the debt ceiling this year. It's just mathematics. Time as SASless said to brush off those pitch forks and get down to Washington. Get rid of the guvmint and then as an absolute priority get rid of the Fed, the biggest and worst loan shark on the planet.



From Bllomberg

Full article

Republican Leaders Voted for Debt Drivers They Blame on Obama - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-26/republican-leaders-voted-for-drivers-of-u-s-debt-they-now-blame-on-obama.html)


House Speaker John Boehner often attacks the spendthrift ways of Washington.
“In Washington, more spending and more debt is business as usual,” the Republican leader from Ohio said in a televised address yesterday amid debate over the U.S. debt. “I’ve got news for Washington - those days are over.”
Yet the speaker, House Majority Leader Eric Cantor, House Budget Chairman Paul Ryan and Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell all voted for major drivers of the nation’s debt during the past decade: Wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the 2001 and 2003 Bush tax cuts and Medicare prescription drug benefits. They also voted for the Troubled Asset Relief Program, or TARP, that rescued financial institutions and the auto industry.
Together, according to data compiled by Bloomberg News, these initiatives added $3.4 trillion to the nation’s accumulated debt and to its current annual budget deficit of $1.5 trillion.
As Congress nears votes to raise the $14.3-trillion debt ceiling to avert a default on U.S. obligations when borrowing authority expires on Aug. 2, both parties are attempting to claim a mantle of fiscal responsibility. They both bear some of the blame: Many Democrats contributed to the expenses that are forcing lawmakers to boost the nation’s debt limit, as have Republican leaders at odds over how much borrowing authority to hand President Barack Obama and when.
“There’s plenty of blame to go around,” for the debt, said Robert Bixby, executive director of the Concord Coalition, an Arlington, Virginia-based group that advocates for balanced budgets. “If there had been no Barack Obama, we would still be bumping up against the debt limit.’”

TU 114


Now is there any US politician with the guts to take this choice and put the USA on a strict austerity diet?

A nice and in fact reasonable idea, but not so in this case.

No austerity program can possibly work, it is impossible and would purely be a political stance destined to fail. At the current debt level, the annual interest payments already total MORE than the total revenue collected from direct individual taxation by the IRS. Remember where you heard it first! If you dont get rid of the Fed you wont get rid of the problem, and it will 100% all end in tears ... a river of them.

Tu.114
27th Jul 2011, 16:47
Henry09,
I just found http://www.gao.gov/financial/citizensguide2008.pdf - seeing page 8, I would have to concur with You.

So apart from slashing the Fed, the only thing that might save the day is the mentioned strict austerity regime combined with an increase in government revenue iso higher taxes - with all of the thereby created difference between income and required spending going into debt service.

But as either of those two ingredients seem to be unpalatable to one of the two parties involved... let me just say that I am a bit pessimistic.

Henry09
27th Jul 2011, 16:58
TU 114

You have got it. Austerity, higher taxation etc etc, much pain for the US citizens and for all that it will only maintain the status quo. In the meantime the cartel that constitutes the Fed still continues to get paid and they laugh their socks off and praise thanks to their grandfathers every night. There is only one way out. Slash the Fed, lets start the rumour and see how long it takes :)

Of course what I have no idea of is how the rest of the world would take such a move. I think as long as all existing bonds were guaranteed to sovereign nations and private investors etc, the US could get away with it, if they effectively 'nationalised the Fed'. One problem the US have whilst being sucked in to this vacuum, is that very few people really understand the Fed, who they are, and how it works. If more people understood, then Washington would be full of pitchfork wielding citizens as we speak.

In the meantime for those taking advantage of the US anxiety over this, the patient wait over the last two days has been worth it. The trouble has started, The FTSE 100 lost 90 points when the US markets opened, and for those people sat with a large short in place to take advantage of such a drop, it has been an extraordinarily profitable 2 hours. :) So one part of me wants all this sorted, but the other part of me screams, bring it on!

Tu.114
27th Jul 2011, 17:15
Henry09,
"only" maintaining the status quo, despite all the associated hardships on the US citizens, would still be quite an achievement in this situation, I am afraid.

The other options like simply defaulting or inflating the debt away by cranking up the bank note press will obliterate any trust left in the US financial discipline and trustworthiness - and this will not come without any hardships either. I am not so sure either that the dissolution of the Fed that has been proposed here occasionally will do anything more than buy some time until the crunch comes at best. At worst it will also do nasty things to the credit ratings of the country and thereby do the exact opposite of what it was supposed to do. A game of poker with quite a bit at stake.

CATIII-NDB
27th Jul 2011, 18:43
Please see my post #84 to KAG - I'm ashamed with my self, for taking so long for the Penny/Phaff/Cantiume/Cent/Drachma to drop.

Don't worry though, the population of the "West" iare very rapidly reaching the same conclusions - I, for one had no idea that the USA was issuing debt; to repay the principle of old loans.

Everyone here, watch to see what happens to the Gold price in the next week or so.

Its the exposure of the "UK" that concerns me.

CAT III

KAG
27th Jul 2011, 18:48
No austerity program can possibly work, it is impossible and would purely be a political stance destined to fail. At the current debt level, the annual interest payments already total MORE than the total revenue collected from direct individual taxation by the IRS.
You make it sound like the global US revenue (or any other western country) comes from individual taxation by the IRS, when in fact it represents a very small part of all revenues.


You ask for a revolution, basically a finance war. Let's start by spending less to repay more like other countries started to do.

Hard time to come, but I don't beleive the option to throw everything away like you recommend will be chosen, unless in a case of huge turmoil and complete bankruptcy what may be much worse than an austerity plan anyway.

11Fan
27th Jul 2011, 18:49
Its the exposure of the "UK" that concerns me.

zOXtWxhlsUg

Henry09
27th Jul 2011, 19:03
CAT

With the UK in to the tune of 500 + Billion or so, we are in it up to our necks, but I cannot see the US defaulting it's debt to the sovereign investors. The Fed would have to take the brunt of any initial default. I think I recall Bernanke saying they were working on a plan B in case no solution was reached but would not say what plan B was. Even so, whilst any payments to sovereign creditors would be honoured, the effect on the markets could be quite overwhelming. The traders in the US have been playing a good hand of poker until today, when they have lost their nerve somewhat and started to sell sell sell. The FTSE 100 lost 100 points in the last 4 hours due to US anxiety. If there is no settlement by the weekend then the high degree of uncertainty will mean Monday will not be for the squeamish on the markets. I think the UK's ownership of debt is ok, but the indirect effect on markets will be significant.

By the way for others that are pondering this problem, the mechanics of this debt are completely different to Greece. In Greece, austerity measures will work if they stick to them, and if they could start collecting correct taxes from Greek citizens they could pull themselves out of the hole (the fact is they won't bother while Europe keeps bailing them out!), the US is completely different in the way the debt has come about and how it is structured. I cannot see austerity measures making a blind bit of difference in the US, other than pis*ing off the population.

Henry09
27th Jul 2011, 19:09
KAG

You make it sound like the global US revenue (or any other western country) comes from individual taxation by the IRS, when in fact it represents a very small part of all revenues.

Where on earth did I say that? I said that the income from all direct individual taxation in the US goes in its entirety to service the debt. All other forms of indirect taxation, goods, food, alcohol, smokes, etc etc etc is what is used to provide the public services that should be provided by direct taxation. Check my earlier posts to clarify.

You ask for a revolution, basically a finance war. Let's start by spending less to repay more like other countries started to do.


No I am not. I am suggesting that the only way out is to get rid of the Fed and its baggage of a 5.6 trillion debt. A debt that should not even legally exist.

11Fan
27th Jul 2011, 19:55
The 2010 election put scores of new congressmen in office with the clear mandate that the spending and debt insanity be stopped. That is exactly what they are trying their best to do.

Even if it means eating our own.

There's another election just around the corner and there is a new Sheriff in town. Some RINO's were handed their hat the last time.

There could be more very soon.

--------- ----------- -------------

And on the other side of the aisle, there's this little chestnut.

Rep. James Clyburn and a group of House Democrats are urging President Barack Obama to invoke the 14th Amendment to raise the debt ceiling if Congress can’t come up with a satisfactory plan before the Tuesday deadline.

Source:
Obama urged to invoke 14th Amendment as debt ceiling deadline nears - Jennifer Epstein - POLITICO.com (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/60038.html)

con-pilot
27th Jul 2011, 23:20
You know that absolute, cannot not be extended, drop-dead deadline, that has been changed three times so far, of August 2?

Well, it seems it is not so drop-dead now. It appears that the real, for sure, we really mean it this time date is; August 10,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


or August 15. :p

Does U.S. Have Enough Cash to Survive August 2 Deadline? - DailyFinance (http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/07/27/debt-ceiling-does-u-s-have-enough-cash-to-survive-august-2-deadline/?icid=main%7Chtmlws-main-w%7Cdl11%7Csec1_lnk3%7C220231)

Metro man
28th Jul 2011, 05:21
If an individual was in a similar situation to the US government, his bank manager would would soon have him in his office and lay it out on the table for him.

Control spending, if possible increase income, spend MUST be less than what's coming in. Work out a schedule for repaying the debt. Learn to live within your means so you're not in this situation again.

It's not rocket science.

prospector
28th Jul 2011, 05:36
"his bank manager would would soon have him in his office and lay it out on the table for him."

Not so, in the system of today the Banker has lent the client so much money, (Knowing all about risk/benefit?) he has to come round to YOUR place and beg some of it back.

bekolblockage
28th Jul 2011, 13:14
As someone who grew up in Australia in the late 50's, 60's and early 70's, my life was surrounded with the portail in school, on TV and in books of the USA as being the biggest, richest, most powerful, front-runner of anything fantatsic, nation. Visions of big houses, seemingly bigger cars, big 'fridges, big salaries were everywhere one looked. Glitz, glamour, boldness -why wouldn't people want to live in the US, people would ask.

Now it reminds me of an instance in my younger years, which I didn't appreciate its relevance til recently.

A family moved into the biggest house in our street when I was about 8. The driveway was always full of the newest cars, they threw the best parties around their inground pool (just about unheard of in the 60's in Oz where I lived), while I was getting my first second-hand bike for Xmas, their kids were getting petrol powered go-karts, mini-bikes, water skis to ski behind their speed boat with the biggest engine I'd ever seen etc.

Then one day everyone stood out in the street and watched as the removal vans turned up and reposessed everything. Lounge suites, fridges, washing machines all marched out the door.There was lots of yelling and screaming as the bailiffs removed the family from the house. I was only about 10 at the time so wondered what all that was about. Word got around that everything was on HP or the never-never as my parents called it and they couldn't keep up the payments.

I didn't understand that at the time. Think I do now.

Hang on, I think I can hear the removal vans turning up on the US doorstep.

SASless
28th Jul 2011, 13:58
I absolutely loved John McCain, the RINO who lost to Barry Obama, reading from the WSJ and calling Tea Party Conservatives Hobbit's! John Boy needs to retire and go fishing somewhere. He is the problem as are all of the career politicians.

The latest Boehner Plan and the Reid plan are evidence of the problem that got us into the situation we find ourselves confronting.

The Bill (Tab,Invoice, Note, Line of Credit Payment, Credit Card Bill) has arrived for all of the deficit spending done by BOTH political parties. The Reid and Boehner Bills extant merely kick the can down the road and neither address the root problem.......the damned National Debt run up by Washington Career Politicians. They spent it knowing they did not have it....the current administration in Spades!

There is but one solution....a Constitutional Amendment that would require the Congress to live within its means. History has proven without that being imposed upon career politicians....they cannot control themselves with Taxpayers money.

In lieu of my preferred method of Pitch Forks, Tar, Feathers, and fence rails.....as Citizens and Patriots we have to remove every single career politician from office beginning this next election. We then need to do away with any incentive whatsoever for folks to spend more than one perhaps two terms in Washington. As to Senators....one single term should be enough. No special perks as they enjoy now...no retirement...no health care for life...no special health clinic in the Capitol building....and make them subject to every single law they pass unlike the exemptions they always grant themselves now.

Far fetched and right winged radical as it will be described....it is the right cure for our long term survival prospects.

stuckgear
28th Jul 2011, 13:59
"his bank manager would would soon have him in his office and lay it out on the table for him."

Not so, in the system of today the Banker has lent the client so much money, (Knowing all about risk/benefit?) he has to come round to YOUR place and beg some of it back.


Well in the system of today, the banker has lent the client so much money, which the client is brorrowing to loan to the bank so the bank can borrow more to loan to the client, that the bank and the client are borrowing more to pay each other back and forth.


"There will be tears before bedtime, I can assure you" - Anon Parent

KAG
28th Jul 2011, 14:45
I absolutely loved John McCain I have always suspected Mc Cain not really wanting to win the election, especially at the end, when he started to compliment Obama or even defend him against some attacks.
He knew the new president wouldn't get any glory to be at a sinking boat command, very wise man. Fighting to become unpopular, whatever you do? Cutting spending on education, health, military, or borrowing more? Not a good time to be Obama, even if personnaly I respect the man.



Concerning the debt (which is I beleive more a western world problem than only a US problem), why not taxing the banks and the speculators?

Storminnorm
28th Jul 2011, 14:55
Tax the Banks and speculators? Are you MAD?
Everyone knows that they will pack up and leave
town if you pull that sort of stunt!!!

KAG
28th Jul 2011, 15:32
Count down: 5 days

bekolblockage
28th Jul 2011, 15:32
Everyone knows that they will pack up and leave
town if you pull that sort of stunt!!!

Hope the door doesn't hit them on the A$$ as they leave.

con-pilot
28th Jul 2011, 22:09
Well, it looks like the Democratic leadership is going to have President Obama invoke the 14th Amendment, section 4.

House Democratic Leaders To Obama: Use The 14th Amendment [UPDATED] (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/27/house-democratic-leaders-urge-obama-to-use-14th-amendment_n_910878.html?icid=main%7Chtmlws-main-w%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%7C220279)

Section IV.

The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any state shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

I can't see where that addresses raising the debt ceiling.

If he does invoke the 14th Amendment, it will cause a hell of an uproar.

lomapaseo
29th Jul 2011, 00:42
If he does invoke the 14th Amendment, it will cause a hell of an uproar.

If it gets the job down .. good. :ok:

Plays right into the hands of the Republicans who want the dems to win now and fail in the next election.

The best deal is if the republicans don't have to play their congressional voting hands at this time and look like idiots to the voters at the next elections.

MountainBear
29th Jul 2011, 08:30
The 2010 election put scores of new congressmen in office with the clear mandate that the spending and debt insanity be stopped. That is exactly what they are trying their best to do. The problem for the Republican Party is the Republican Party. The truth is that they cannot pass a bill because 2/3 of the government in WDC belongs to the opposition. While failing to pass a bill will please the 1/3 of the party that is Tea Party it will also demonstrate that they will not be capable of governing.

If I'm Obama I'm grinning like a Cheshire cat because no matter what the Republicans do or fail to do they piss off someone important. If they fail to pass a bill they piss off Wall Street and all those juicy campaign donations for the next election. If they pass a bill they piss off the rabid activists who will be the foot soldiers in the next election. It really is a "your money or your life" moment for the Republican party and the way they are twisting in the wind is most amusing.

Plays right into the hands of the Republicans who want the dems to win now and fail in the next election.

Obama is not that stupid.

Henry09
29th Jul 2011, 10:19
Boehmer has one chance left to pull something startling out of the bag today or it will be bye bye Boehmer, hello new Mr Speaker time. He has grossly miscalculated the feeling within his own party over this issue, and to propose a plan that has had to be delayed because of sure defeat from dissent within his own party has been folly. It is a pity that he and his cronies whilst 'working so hard and so long', did not spend time evaluating what his own congressmen wanted. In such high profile party disagreements such as this, there should be absolutely no need for party whips or inter party lobbying. With astute, effective leadership the vote in congress should have been a given for the majority party.

ORAC
29th Jul 2011, 12:52
It is a pity that he and his cronies whilst 'working so hard and so long', did not spend time evaluating what his own congressmen wanted. They may have just wounded their own Republican leadership, but the Tea Party deficit strategy still makes sense (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100099025/they-may-have-just-wounded-their-own-republican-leadership-but-the-tea-party-deficit-strategy-still-makes-sense/)

Henry09
29th Jul 2011, 13:13
Lankford explained that he and the other freshmen feel that they have been elected on one issue alone: debt. They are divided over many other things (abortion, unions, Libya) but united in their revulsion at Obama’s deficit

An interesting read, but it seems Mr Lankford does not understand economics (which seems the case for many congressmen), as this is not Obama's deficit. The deficit has taken 15-20 years of successive mismanagement by every President and administration, regardless of party alignment.

SASless
29th Jul 2011, 13:51
The total deficit is not Barry Boy's doing....but the last four or five Trillion Dollars worth is his and a Democratic Party controlled Congress and White House working in concert to spend as much money as possible....at a rate 1.4 times Revenue. This they did knowing they were "borrowing" 40% of what they spent. They were intent upon spending the money THEN raising taxes to offset some of the spending. There is no way to raise enough Tax Revenue to pay for their spending.

Please note the Economy growth is down to 1.7 percent this month.....it takes 3.5 percent to keep pace with jobs due to population growth.

This is not rocket science folks.....deficit spending has gotten us into bankruptcy....debt shall destroy the Nation surely as invasion by an armed enemy. Congress has done us more harm than Germany, Japan, the USSR, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, China, Mexico and Libya put together.

Henry09
29th Jul 2011, 13:59
SASless

You have to get away from the whole President party thing here. They are ALL robbing you guys blind. Under Bush the deficit went from about 5 to 10 Trillion. He had a good run as near as damit doubling the deficit. The interest alone when he left the fix was 900 billion a year! In a bid to stop the motor industry and the banks going belly up there needed to be more money spent, and then just add another couple of interest payments, bang! 14.5 trillion in a heartbeat. It would have been exactly the same under McCain. It is an unstoppable train at the moment. Congress is to blame regardless of party flavour. The way the interest is accruing it will reach 20 trillion easy. It is the Fed not Barry or Bush.

This they did knowing they were "borrowing" 40% of what they spent. They were intent upon spending the money THEN raising taxes to offset some of the spending.

That has been going on for years! Borrowing 40% is not bad really, there have been years when it has been much higher. Where do you think all the money came from for Iraq? It wasn't stashed up in the bank that's for sure. It was printed by the Fed and now you have to pay them back!

lomapaseo
29th Jul 2011, 14:27
Hmm, if the republican party is no longer functioning, what would happen if we just split off the Tea Party and went with a 3 party system?

Would that solve the problem?.

Seems like we might have to let the courts decide measured against the constitution.

In the end you have to pay your bills and if you can't raise the money, (blocked by congress) then you have to cut expenses (court needs to rule on whether congress is responsible)

KAG
29th Jul 2011, 14:27
Count down: 4 days

11Fan
29th Jul 2011, 16:37
(Henry09) Boehmer has one chance left to pull something startling out of the bag today or it will be bye bye Boehmer,

Seems a little bit is happening in the last hour or so. With a Balanced Budget Amendment now added, Speaker Boehner may now have the votes. Guess I'll turn on C-Span.

Henry09
29th Jul 2011, 16:41
11Fan

That news and the speech by Obama was enough to cause a 1% rise in the UK FTSE 100, quite amazing. The S&P 500 and the Dow also rallied powerfully, but in the last 15 mins there has been a big tank in the markets. Could be a long afternoon on the US markets. Anyone any ideas what time the house will vote again?

11Fan
29th Jul 2011, 16:45
Anyone any ideas what time the house will vote again?

Dunno, I have C-Span dot com open and they are just taking calls. If I had to bet, before market close today.

...but in the last 15 mins there has been a big tank in the markets.

Weak GDP Report I suspect.

Disclaimer: I am not a Political Pundit nor am I a Financial Expert, however, I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Um... lifting...
29th Jul 2011, 16:49
It's also Friday. A lot of people with low risk tolerance will exit by midday. You'll see a move if the vote occurs prior to market close.

Henry09
29th Jul 2011, 16:54
!!Fan

The weak GDP came out an hour before US market open, caused a huge tank in the Brit market and of course initially for you guys. The news on getting closer to striking a deal almost negated it completely. I think the big fall we have just seen was the Brits closing their positions in the last 10 mins before the market closed. They are all to nervous to leave them open over the weekend with the uncertainty of what could take place with the Senate etc.

These politicians are costing billions and they aren't even aware ;)

obgraham
29th Jul 2011, 17:02
It's times like this when a parliamentary system would be of great benefit.
Immediate election. Throw them all out and start over.

Instead we are fighting the 2012 election now, in the guise of a debt debate.

Henry09
29th Jul 2011, 17:10
URGENT


For any investor! We have just found a pre-recorded statement by Senator Reid made in advance of the Boehner Bill!!!


‪I'm against it!.wmv‬‏ - YouTube

BombayDuck
29th Jul 2011, 18:08
The bit I don't understand is the two-yearly elections for the direct representatives of the people. Two years is a ridiculously short time; Every politician is in campaign mode the moment they're elected; even the president who wants to have the House by his side two years into his term. So you had Boehner and Co saying that their first priority from Nov 2008 was getting elected in 2010, and then Pelosi and her gang campaigning from Nov 2010.

It's too short a cycle, IMO, and it lends itself even better to soundbytes because everyone is waiting for a 'gotcha' moment.

con-pilot
29th Jul 2011, 18:09
Henry

Under Bush the deficit went from about 5 to 10 Trillion

That is very true, however, it took Bush eight (8) years to achieve that five billion dollar deficit, it has only taken Obama three (3) years to achieve the same additional five billion dollar deficit increase. Please see chart on post #44.

For that reason alone, we have to stop this runaway increase of borrowing and spending.

Personally, I'm one of those Republicans that realize that we will have to increase tax income along with cuts in spending. But for every one percent increase of tax revenue, we must cut spending by five percent.

Not the other way around, which both parties seem to think it should be done.

SASless
29th Jul 2011, 18:30
Henry.....

The total deficit is not Barry Boy's doing

That is the start of my post....and in the past you know I lay the problem smack dab at the feet of both parties and career politicians. The important point is the Democrats and Barry Boy while in control of Congress and the White House absolutely went crazy with their spending....and created the largest increase in debt by any way you want to measure it.

Now we have the very same people that so very much added to the problem acting as if they were budget cutters...which in an analysis of their proposals....they are not.

Any time you try to claim reduced expenditures for Afghanistand and Iraq as "Cuts".....that just stinks to high heavens. Clinton got away with the same thing when he made cuts to the DOD....calling it peace savings. The fact the civilian side of the Federal guvmint grew under Clinton was ignored by the media.

We have to remember MSM "reporting" is merely the reiteration of the Democratic Talking Points and Opinion rather than genuine objective reporting of the truth.

11Fan
29th Jul 2011, 18:43
Duck,

Welcome to the discussion. For the House of Representatives.

The bit I don't understand is the two-yearly elections for the direct representatives of the people.

Actually, the up side is that we get to overthrow the Government every two years. The Senate on the other hand is a six year term. I wish it were less, and I would like to see some Term Limits as well but these guys are not going to vote themselves out of a job.

Con,

I'm one of those Republicans that realize that we will have to increase tax income along with cuts in spending.

I'd almost go along with ya if we could have some control on how it's spent.

11Fan
29th Jul 2011, 19:13
OK, looks as if the ball is rolling. It will be interesting to see how the voting goes, or more precisely, how many Dem's will vote in favor to save their jobs.

Here is a link to streaming video.

Live Video - C-SPAN | C-SPAN (http://www.c-span.org/Live-Video/C-SPAN/)

con-pilot
29th Jul 2011, 20:02
Still not voting yet, some Democratic Congresswoman from California is on a triad about Bush right now.

Problem is, Bush was bad in spending, but Obama has picked up Bush's ball and is running with it in a rapid, headlong downhill run at breakneck speed.

The sad thing is, the neck he is going to break is ours.

11Fan
29th Jul 2011, 20:36
Some procedural voting going on right now, but if it is a indicaiton of how the vote on the Bill will go, this is going to pass.

Now doing a vote on a Special Envoy For Religious Freedom Issues. :hmm:

Oh God, now they are naming Post Offices.

See ya later.

BombayDuck
29th Jul 2011, 20:50
Actually, the up side is that we get to overthrow the Government every two years.

That's the thing, 11fan, I fail to see the upside. I've been following American politics since around 2006, and month it's a focus on the coming end-of-even-year election. People (rightly) accuse Obama of being in permanent campaign mode, but EVERYONE is. A republican that had four years as a rep would get time to establish his credentials and do some work for his constituents instead of, from day 1, think about being Sharron-Angled-out in two years.

Conversely here, rightly or wrongly, the government gets a chance to execute its policies and have long-term debates. Of course it being a coalition means it's a little more precarious (and as an Indian I know about coalitions too well :p) but all the debate is centred around policy not elections.

Just an outsider's view, though, maybe your model suits your country better.

BombayDuck
29th Jul 2011, 20:52
Oh God, now they are naming Post Offices.

...what?

They can do that?

:confused:

11Fan
29th Jul 2011, 20:54
Good points Duck. I would hope that by setting Term Limits, campaign mode would decrease and the business of The People would take precedent. But what do I know? They are voting on what to name a Post Office right now.

They can do that?


Yeah.. It' a ceremonial/honorary thing. Seems like something that could be tabled for a few days tough.

con-pilot
29th Jul 2011, 20:58
Oh God, now they are naming Post Offices.



They're supposed to be shuting down some one hundred post offices, not naming them.

Now the final vote is to come around 18:00 EDT. I'm not going to set my watch by it. :p

Um... lifting...
29th Jul 2011, 20:58
Interesting linguistic point.

In British usage, 'tabled' means to be brought up for discussion.

In American usage, it means almost precisely the opposite.

Table (parliamentary procedure) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_%28parliamentary_procedure%29)

The enjoyment of a common language was of course a supreme advantage in all British and American discussions. ... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...) The British Staff prepared a paper which they wished to raise as a matter of urgency, and informed their American colleagues that they wished to "table it." To the American Staff "tabling" a paper meant putting it away in a drawer and forgetting it. A long and even acrimonious argument ensued before both parties realized that they were agreed on the merits and wanted the same thing.

-Winston Churchill

11Fan
29th Jul 2011, 21:00
In American usage, it means almost precisely the opposite.

Divided by a common language, something along those lines. :p

Henry09
29th Jul 2011, 21:01
Con

That is very true, however, it took Bush eight (8) years to achieve that five billion dollar deficit, it has only taken Obama three (3) years to achieve the same additional five billion dollar deficit increase. Please see chart on post #44.

For that reason alone, we have to stop this runaway increase of borrowing and spending.


The political loyalty in you guys is so deeply engrained you can't see the wood for the tree's.

From 5-10 Trillion is a 100% increase in deficit.

Barry boy at 14.5 T is currently running at an increase of 45%

BUT and it is a big BUT without even touching the controls, as soon as Barry arrived the increase in the deficit due to interest payments alone on a 10 Trillion deficit was 900 Billion a year. Now barry has had 3 of those and each year it increases. So without spending a cent 10 T becomes 10.9T then becomes 11.9T and now (interest at 1.2T) the amount is 13.1T, so really Barry boy has spent 1.4 T, and as I recall the ballpark figure for bailing out the banks and the car industry to save all the jobs and the economy was 1 Trillion, thats 14.1 ish. That is before any increase in spending associated with running the country for the last 3 years.

The truth is he has not been the biggest spender. The increases are rising exponentially due to compound interest. Whichever Republican President takes office next year will have to cope with an annual increase in deficit due to INTEREST ALONE of 1.4 Trillion upwards, with that amount increasing by about 9% each year even without any spending which there will be, so the annual interest increase on the deficit will be around 1.6-1.8 Trillion per year over the next few years.

It is absolutely nothing to do with Obama, and until Americans realise that you are heading down the whirlpool of financial ruin. I reckon you will be at 23-25 Trillion in 5 years. The country is in the sh*t, seriously and Obama seems to be the only one who knows it. The plan by Boehmer will suffice for the next 5 months, no more, then what? They are using this as an election issue instead of working together to sort out the country on behalf of its citizens.

Just sayin.

con-pilot
29th Jul 2011, 21:30
From 5-10 Trillion is a 100% increase in deficit.

Barry boy at 14.5 T is currently running at an increase of 45%



I'm very aware of that Henry, however, if I recall correctly, I used no figures of percentage, only actual numbers. Let me see here, my memory is not as it used to be.

That is very true, however, it took Bush eight (8) years to achieve that five billion dollar deficit, it has only taken Obama three (3) years to achieve the same additional five billion dollar deficit increase. Please see chart on post #44.



Nope, no percentage used.

Also, the amount on the chart on post #44 was $15,476,243,000,000.00, that would be fifteen trillion, four hundred seventy six billion, two hundred forty three million, rounded off of course. The amount that Obama is asking the debt ceiling be raised to.

That is an increase of five trillion plus dollars in just three years, or 54% using your accounting. In just three years.

If Obama is reelected, by extension, if spending is not reduced, Obama will increase the deficit by around 150% plus at the end of eight years. This will be assured by Obamacare becoming fully funded.

No one is saying that under Bush II and the Congress in office during Bush's Administration did not spend too much, they did. But Obama is spending more, faster and it must be brought under control.

Now, do you want the real, honest to God truth of the matter? Well, I'm going to give it to you anyway. :p

No matter what is agreed on now, today, on the debt ceiling, in just a matter of a couple of years, a new power shift in Washington can change it all.

Only a Constitutional Amendment cannot be changes by a simple majority vote of Congress, signed by a President. The odds of getting a Balanced Budget Amendment in this current political atmosphere is zero to none.

The Leader of the Senate, Harry Reid (D), has stated repeatedly that any legislation that has a Balanced Budget Amendment in it, he will not allow to be brought to the floor for a vote.

Um... lifting...
29th Jul 2011, 21:32
From 5-10 Trillion is a 100% increase in deficit.

Barry boy at 14.5 T is currently running at an increase of 45%Which is true. Let's us have a small geometry lesson.

Cube root of 1.45 = 1.13

8th root of 2 = 1.09

So, what does this mean?

It means that while con-pilot is correct in letter, henry is also correct.

I will submit that it doesn't really matter whether con-pilot is more correct or henry is more correct (both make valid points that are each but part of the equation), the deficit is growing and has been growing at a breakneck pace, and is on track to get even worse. Henry's numbers 5 years on match my own. If we assume the next five years the deficit grows at the same average rate it has for the last three, which is probably optimistic.

Blame whoever you wish (I think both sides of the aisle have a huge amount to answer for, always have... I don't trust a one of them...), but the deficit has been ballooning at an annualized rate of 13% since Obama got in the White House and grew at an annualized rate of 9% during Bush's tenure. So, under Bush it doubled in 8 years and under Obama it's on track to do it again in about 5-1/2. At this rate, if Obama gets a second term, the wagering man would probably give decent odds on the deficit quadrupling during the Obama administration, though I can't imagine it's sustainable long enough for the wager to actually be proven.

While I have no intention of calculating it myself, I'd venture to guess that rate of growth broken down year by year has steadily trended upward for decades. The system is broken.
Ridiculous entitlement spending needs to stop, redundant government programs (of which there are thousands) need to be shut down, the Fed needs to shut down the presses for a while (contractionary monetary policy), interest rates need to increase (also contractionary monetary policy), improve efficiency of systems such as tort reform and healthcare (which Obamacare has never touched), and then address the taxation question.
If you as a private citizen are in danger of losing your house, the first thing you do is stop eating out 7 nights a week and going to Starbuck's twice a day and strive to live within your means. Once you've managed that, you can work toward increasing your means. While there is hysteresis in decreasing the rate of government spending, there is a greater delay in ramping up revenues. Cut first.
Unfortunately, the 535 career criminals (most of them attorneys "You have a criminal attorney in this town?" "Well, we think so, but we ain't been able to prove it yet.") on Capitol Hill haven't the collective stomach, nor apparently sufficient institutional memory of Econ. 101 to recognize that feathering their own personal nests through pandering to the lowest common denominator among their constituencies and their silly-arse political parties (the most useless assemblage of humanity exant) is ultimately going to end in tears. Not just for the little guy, but for themselves as well.

Henry09
29th Jul 2011, 22:01
Con, Um..lifting..

Thanks for the well thought out posts guys. The numbers are there or thereabouts. The nuts and bolts of it are that there has to be significant change. Con, I look forward to seeing the 'power shift' in Washington, though it will have to be profound. Although you used no 'percentages', I am sure you see the need to use them when we start talking about budgets and in particular compound interest. The latter is the scariest part, and as I keep saying can only be got rid of by getting rid of the Fed!

Um, your numbers are on the money, and without us all getting calculators out I think we would agree that the mental dead reckoning is pretty close.

Fingers crossed for the weekend guys, but I won't hold my breath.

11Fan
29th Jul 2011, 22:08
I was wondering why my McAfee BS Filter was going crazy on my laptop. I had a open window running in the background tuned to C-Span. I opened it and Nancy Pelosi was at the podium.

I think I need to reboot my computer. :yuk:

con-pilot
29th Jul 2011, 22:14
Fingers crossed for the weekend guys, but I won't hold my breath.

Thank you, but you really, really want to know what I think is going to happen? ('Yeah, yeah', you're thinking, 'you're going to tell me anyway' :p).

By or just before Tuesday they'll come to an agreement, declare themselves heroes, both sides, then go back to business as usual. For a month or so, then start all this up again getting ready for the 2012 elections.

Nothing really ever changes in Washington. :(

Henry09
29th Jul 2011, 22:15
11Fan

A great link, am watching it live now with the vote yet to come, but with the current congressman speaking the house is almost completely empty! What debate?

Edited to add I think I get it now, the woman who is on is just rent a voice whilst the others all vote! 5 mins left!

11Fan
29th Jul 2011, 22:24
Henry,

....but with the current congressman speaking the house is almost completely empty! What debate?

I fluctuates. With a bigger vote coming up in the next hour or so, most probably slipped out for a quick break. It's like this sometimes. It seems vacant, but I believe that there is live broadcast going into each of the Representative's Offices.

That said. you are seeing two different Houses. The Honorable Senator from Texas is speaking over on the Floor of the Senate (from earlier) and the empty room you see on the other view is the Floor of the House of Representatives.

con-pilot
29th Jul 2011, 22:28
but with the current congressman speaking the house is almost completely empty! What debate?

That's a common tacit of both parties. They give speeches during 'debates' with a mostly empty house, and then show the tape of the speech to the voters in their district to show what a great job they are doing.

con-pilot
29th Jul 2011, 22:30
most probably slipped out for a quick break

After all, it is happy hour in DC. :p

con-pilot
29th Jul 2011, 22:32
Wow, one Democrat voted yea. Think he/she will be shot at sunrise? :p

Damn, I think they shot them already, that sole one yea vote is gone now. :uhoh:

11Fan
29th Jul 2011, 22:35
Balanced Budget Amendment added to bill, passed by 239 to 187. So, it will be part of the bill and now they are saying 1815 Eastern for the vote on the Bill. A little less than an hour from now.

Speaker Boehner on now.

Henry09
29th Jul 2011, 22:37
Con
I saw and thought exactly the same thing! And then wooosh! Back to the other side :)

Edited

11Fan

My bad! So this is just for the addition of the balanced budget. Will the results of the whole bill now be the same? yikes, more drama!

con-pilot
29th Jul 2011, 22:39
I saw and thought exactly the same thing! And then wooosh! Back to the other side

Whew, glad some one else saw it, I was beginning to think I had imagined it. :p

11Fan
29th Jul 2011, 22:41
And then wooosh! Back to the other side

That happens throughout the voting process. At the end, the no votes (NV) are not really a NO vote, rather, they just haven't voted yet. So after the clock has stopped, it still settles in. Not official until the Clerk calls it.

Now the crap starts. Harrumphs all around.

Democratic Talking Points:

Attack Big Oil
Attack Corporate Jet Owners

11Fan
29th Jul 2011, 22:55
15 Minutes to Recommit Vote, followed by Final Vote. On track for 1815.

Henry09
29th Jul 2011, 22:59
11Fan

Help me here ;) I have been up almost 24 hours! The recommit vote is going on now. If that succeeds then the main bill goes to vote? In about 20 mins or so? What if the recommit vote doesn't go through or is it a formality? Thanks for indulging me. I have made enough money from this during this week that I feel obliged to follow it through to the end!

11Fan
29th Jul 2011, 23:07
OK, not an expert, but the Recommit Vote is to agree that the Bill will proceed as written. Remember, about an hour ago they agreed to add the Balanced Budget Amendment so it's part of the Bill now.

What if the recommit vote doesn't go through or is it a formality?

Well, it's 243 to 182 right now so it will likely go through. If it didn't, it's a start over.

That said, "formality" can mean two things I suppose. In this case, the Recommit is a matter of procedure and it is required.

OK, here we go folks.

Henry09
29th Jul 2011, 23:14
11Fn

I will hang on in for 15 minutes, though it has gone woosh over the top of my head! The last vote was reversed, all the Dems saying Yeah, and the Reps saying No!. All seem happy though, so I guess the next 15 mins is it. Seems to have been a lot of whipping going on since last night. An analyst on Bloomberg brought up a good point a few minutes ago. S&P calculate that in order to avoid disaster cuts need to be in the order of 4 trillion, but the Boehner plan is only 900 billion!

11Fan
29th Jul 2011, 23:18
but the Boehner plan is only 900 billion!

This round. Another round in a few months I believe.

On this vote, more yeas means it passes. Simple majority.

OK, I think we have it. 218 - 206 - 9 I believe

Seems to have been a lot of whipping going on since last night.

All they needed to do was add the Balanced Budget Amendment.

They have now moved on to another measure.

Henry09
29th Jul 2011, 23:25
So, a result, but frustrating. Yes!! but now we almost know immediately that the senate says no! Monday will be mad on the markets!! Problem is I have no idea which way to go. Even if an agreement is reached, it is highly likely the debt rating will be reduced, maybe even on Monday. So agreement pushes the market up and downgrading pushes the market down! I think the safest thing is to go to the beach until Wednesday :) Goodnight Con/11Fan.

11Fan
29th Jul 2011, 23:28
Rest well Henry. Catch ya on the flip side.

tony draper
29th Jul 2011, 23:28
Fascinating to watch,seems better organised and less chaotic than our lot down in Westminster.:)

11Fan
29th Jul 2011, 23:34
Well, we had a few harrumphs, but nothing like your lot. I actually like watching the Koreans where fist fights break out. :ok:

con-pilot
29th Jul 2011, 23:42
Goodnight Henry. Good luck on picking the right bid. I'd give you my advise, but I'm one that buys high and sells low. :(

tony draper
29th Jul 2011, 23:46
Yer a bit rowdiness tends to creep in when you been doing it for a thousand years Mr 11,:E

11Fan
29th Jul 2011, 23:51
Indeed Sir, indeed. Would I live long enough to witness it here.

SASless
30th Jul 2011, 02:25
Actually I quite enjoy watching the Prime Minister having to answer questions in Parliment....oh, but wouldn't I like to see Barry Boy enduring a similar grilling by the Tea Party Freshmen!

The Balanced Budget Agreement I would like to see....."Upon the Federal Budget Expenditures exceeding Tax Revenues in any given Fiscal Year....no sitting member of Congress shall be eligible for re-election." The only exception would be in time of a Formal Declaration of War voted on by Congress requiring a Two Thirds Majority vote.

Amend the Tax Code......to read "Any Tax, Fee, License Fee, Permit Fee, Assessment, or Levy increase, of any kind, would require a two thirds majority vote of both Houses of Congress."

I would also grant the President the Line Item Veto which would require a Two Thirds Majority of both Houses of Congress to be over turned.

MountainBear
30th Jul 2011, 07:06
Bombyduck.

I'm in complete agreement with you. The two year election cycle is a relic from a different era where Congress was in session six weeks out of the year and it took six week just to travel to Washington from the "Territories". In our modern society it does far more harm than good.

I'm all for a balanced budget amendment so long as it's tied to the total elimination of all retirement and social welfare for anymore currently 55 and over. You guys spent it; you can pay it back. I don't want to get stuck with your bill.

BombayDuck
30th Jul 2011, 08:51
The Balanced Budget Agreement I would like to see....."Upon the Federal Budget Expenditures exceeding Tax Revenues in any given Fiscal Year....no sitting member of Congress shall be eligible for re-election." The only exception would be in time of a Formal Declaration of War voted on by Congress requiring a Two Thirds Majority vote.

Not even for natural disasters? Recessions caused by market bubbles (which lead to a rise of UI claims and Medicare/Medicaid expenditure)?

I suppose your solution was an idealised one, and if so, I understand the reasoning (and frustration!) behind it, but even under ideal conditions I would not like to see such a rule :)

(and capping revenue at 18% of GDP is just stupid)

SASless
30th Jul 2011, 12:29
Not even for natural disasters? Recessions caused by market bubbles (which lead to a rise of UI claims and Medicare/Medicaid expenditure)?



Market bubbles? Spending such as TARP, Stimulus, Bailouts of AIG, Fannie and Freddie, GM and Chrysler......the very spending that has caused "Too Big To Fail bailouts of failed enterprises by Congress using Taxpayers money? Our Nation was founded upon the concept of people taking risks...and either succeeding or failing....knowing they could lose everything if they failed....not just stick a hand out and ask for a bail out by their cronies in the Congress.

CATIII-NDB
30th Jul 2011, 13:10
From the "Relatively Safe" perspective of the UK side of the Atlantic - I bet all those Bond/Share/Futures "Traders" have already stocked up on spare keyboards for Monday.

The spectre of paralysis of the US Government by its inability to pay even its current liabilities rings the "Bells of Hell" for the authority of the US in any meaning full sense.

The enactment of a "solution" based on the 14th Ammenment to pay the key elements (Police,National Guard & Army) that mantain govenance and a limited degree of social order, does not in its self, help to solve the situation.

The US, if its to survive as an ecomomic entity, has to take a greater share of its internal monetary flows through taxation as a matter of urgency.

The revinue accruing, through an "Emergency" tax package being used to provide pay of state employees - Just how much of its GDP is the deficit ?

The debt is structural, and it seems to eminate from the time of the Bush 1 era, assisted abley, by "Reganomics" and the Clinton administrations.

The political impasse is a function of the "Mind Set" of the political class that has developed in North America. in the last 4 decades.

This is only an instinctive guess, but I don't discount the possibity of a "State of National Emergency" being declared by the Office of the Presedent, preventing a run on the Banks and a mass sell off of US Treasury Bonds, by controls on the balances of cash that can be withdrawn and the trading of Bonds as a short term interim measure to prevent a collapse in values.

They cannot even guarentee pay to serving forces. as I type this.

Things are not going to be the same economically for the USA, after this debacle.

CAT III

Henry09
30th Jul 2011, 13:50
CATIII

What is being presented via the mass media is a gross understatement of the true predicament, ney 'crisis' that is facing the American people. I think the truth is, if most people knew the truth of how desperately serious it is, it would result in mass panic.

I am waiting until the early hours of Monday morning to open a position on the market, just to make sure there are no last minute flanking moves from anyone in the decision making process. On Monday, all the big players will be sat on their hands and do nothing, whilst all the little guys desperately try and close positions that could turn very bad with the resulting mayhem at Market open on Monday. The Asian markets will be first, followed by the UK and European markets, who have 6 1/2 hours before US markets open to whip themselves up into a frenzy of uncertainty. Rumours abound already of a downgrade in the US credit rating on Monday, that is enough to start the ball rolling. It should be a hell of a ride!

As for the medium to long term, the prognosis as you describe is both accurate and grim. It is little wonder that Reagan and Arnie did so well in US Politics, as it seems acting ability is a pre-requisite for the successful politician. Watching Boehner, Reid and Obama in front of the camera's is both worrying and sickening. They know how serious this is and are fobbing the American citizens off with a 'it will be all right if you follow my plan' routine. It is all a lie.

I think this is the defining moment in History where the US Empire starts to crumble (as all Empires do, its not meant in a derogatory sense), and the Chinese take over. This situation will need tax hikes and cuts in spending. Pulling all the troops out of Iraq, Afghanistan, and stopping policing the world will save hundreds of billions. Defence of the US mainland and it's borders will have to be the military priority. Either all that or get rid of the Fed. The American people deserve better than the pantomime that is being played out in front of them.

BombayDuck
30th Jul 2011, 13:52
Market bubbles? Spending such as TARP, Stimulus, Bailouts of AIG, Fannie and Freddie, GM and Chrysler......the very spending that has caused "Too Big To Fail bailouts of failed enterprises by Congress using Taxpayers money? Our Nation was founded upon the concept of people taking risks...and either succeeding or failing....knowing they could lose everything if they failed....not just stick a hand out and ask for a bail out by their cronies in the Congress.

SASless, whether or not TARP, ARRA, Fannie/Freddie and Auto bailouts had been enacted, there would have been a recession. The housing bubble was a reality, as much as the dot com bubble.

I agree with you that having corporations that operate with abandon simply because they know they will be bailed out is disgusting and something that should not happen again, but the recession would have happened without the bailouts. And even without the bailouts there is a tendency for governments to go into debt because

1) Reduced revenues thanks to unemployment
2) Increased expenditures on UI
3) Increased medical expenses because suddenly those who had employer-provided insurance now have to depend on Medicaid.

For instance, since the housing market collapse Medicaid expenditures have gone up by 50% and UI payments have doubled. So all I'm saying is sh|t does happen, and having such a hard-and-fast rule is only a source of trouble.

KAG
30th Jul 2011, 14:04
Count down: 3 days

galaxy flyer
30th Jul 2011, 17:25
MountainBear, BD

I think you have it backwards on the two-year cycle. Just think how much better things would be IF Congress was in session for six weeks each year and took weeks on horseback to convene. They'd come in debate, knowing they had to get the budget passed and leave. Much less mucking around time.

GF

Um... lifting...
30th Jul 2011, 17:37
gf-

Let us not forget the fine old tradition of horsewhipping them in the streets for their various indiscretions.

Flash2001
30th Jul 2011, 17:54
I thought that the American tradition involved tar, feathers and a fence rail.

After an excellent landing you can use the airplane again!

Um... lifting...
30th Jul 2011, 17:58
They're flexible. Horsewhipping is a warning, generally, except for journos... who get it periodically to keep them close to the truth. There probably is something to be said for keeping some fence rails about for these sorts of emergencies.

Q3eTSbC3neA

SASless
30th Jul 2011, 18:31
I am stone cold sober for now....and just got off the telephone with my Democratic Senator's office in DC (Kay Hagan D-NC). The nice fellow that suffered through my call remained a gentleman but one could tell he was under a lot of stress in answering my questions which were politely but forcefully put to him.

He talked of compromise....I reminded him of two House Bills sent to the Senate which were immediately tabled or stalled procedurely. I also reminded him Pinky Reid has basically filibustered his very own Senate Bill delaying the vote. The staffer said the vote on that would come sometime Tuesday.

I asked how his Senator could claim to be the solution to the problem as she has done. He talked of how she was all for cutting spending and proved it by voting for Pinky Reid's Bill. I suggested as she had voted for every single Democratic Spending Bill since being in the Senate and voting to kill the two House Bills without any debate or amendment process.....she was the damn problem and certainly not the cure as she is boasting about. He had no answer to that!

He brought up Bush's unfunded wars as an excuse to blame the Republicans....until I asked him what the Senator's position on the "Non-War" in Libya was! He punted that one to another staffer who promised on her voice mail box to discuss that with me on Monday.

You want to have an enjoyable day....call your Senators and ask them embarrassing questions...do so in a nice but firm way....enjoy listening to them squirm! Tie up their phone line and a staffer as long as you can....put the heat on them!

Throw FACTS at them when they spout the Party Line Talking Points at you....force them to take a position when confronted by those facts. Darn good fun on a very hot Saturday afternoon.

Send a email to John McCain and suggest he go fishing....he has earned several retirements and he should enjoy at least one of them.

Henry09
30th Jul 2011, 19:20
SASless

Sounds like a great way to spend a while doing some venting off on a Saturday.

Can you just clarify what the Senators office said they would not be voting on until Tuesday? Sounds like good Int. Thanks :ok:

SASless
30th Jul 2011, 21:11
Pinky Reid's Bill....the one he only has 59 votes for....one shy of being able to avoid cloture and thus a vote on the bill which will fail the necessary 60 votes for passage. (As I understood the man to say anyway......) By taking the action he did....Reid used a procedural process to delay the vote by two days....a two day delay that has been ignored frequently in the past. It is just a way of running out the clock and trying to force the House of Representatives into a "Take It....or take the Blame" situation!

Henry09
31st Jul 2011, 03:50
SASless

Well it was always on the cards I guess. Reid is trying to out flank Boehner. If Reid sends the bill early it gives time for it to be defeated by the Republican house and they then send back an alternative. The Democrat Senate then reject it and the nation runs over the deadline and the people blame the Senate. What Reid is doing is making sure that the people will blame the House if nothing is passed in time. It all flies in the face of what Obama asked for in his speech when he said "time to stop the 'party' first mentality and give the American people the leadership they expect. Boehner and Reid are clearly up to their necks in a 'party first' war of wits, and the only losers can be the American people and their economy. They play a dangerous game.

SASless
31st Jul 2011, 04:32
To be a good chess player one must be many moves ahead of one's opponent. You ever wonder what was said in private between Obama, Reid, and Pelosi?

Obama cannot have any kind of debate on spending/cutting/taxes before November 2012 or he is not a lame duck....but a very dead duck as to re-election.

Boehner has beat Reid already....the House has sent two Bills to Reid....one very much like Reid's very own Senate Bill....and Reid tabled both. Reid is running the clock out by holding off his own Bill that does not have but 59 votes and thus will not pass if voted on. He can still call Boehner's second Bill from the icebox....but would only do so in desparation. McConnell's Bill will never see the light of day as it would cut Obama's legs off at his knees....by requiring Obama to fight this all over again...multiple times.

Obama will sign anything at this point.....or he becomes the first President to bring the Country to default....which will end his Presidency perhaps before the end of his term.

The Republicans have won....in particularly....the Tea Party Republicans....it all over but the crying on the Democrats side....at some point the House and Senate Republicans will offer up a compromise that even Pinky and the Bitch cannot refuse. If they do....their collective goose is cooked as there will be a hue and cry for their heads that even the MSM cannot hush up!

The next battle will be the National Debt....and shall start immediately upon the signing of whatever compromise occurs. The Republicans will start by calling Tim (Pay no Taxes) Geithner to the Hill and demand him to explain why he and the Whitehouse took no action clear back in March when the rating companies began telling Geithner of rating problems. Wait for that to start in the House....that will be Popcorn and Beer in the Lounger for weeks and weeks.

Remember well over 70% of the American People favor a Balanced Budget Amendment or similar law. There is no escaping that for the Democrats. Congress has something like a 6% Approval rating over this debacle....career politicians are going to be fair game come the next two elections. Also recall the Supreme Court who Obama criticized in a State of the Union Address is now beginning to get the Appeals on the Obama Care law. It is now has a conservative majority.

There is a huge back lash against the Obama Progressive Agenda building....hide and watch!

Mach Turtle
31st Jul 2011, 09:07
Am I the only one thinking that:

- The debt-rating agencies demonstrated in 2008 that their stated ratings don't mean too much?

- And anyway, whose sovereign debt would you rather have, if not that of the United States?

- If the U.S. debt is downgraded and the country has to pay higher interest...so what?

- What is "default" anyway? If those banks were too big to fail, what is the United States?

Theatre, all of it.

Henry09
31st Jul 2011, 09:39
Mach

The issue is that it doesn't matter whose sovereign debt you have, if they cannot pay you back it is worthless. When the deficit is up at 20-25 Trillion in 5 years, you may as well take your sovereign debt and throw it down the drain. All the US are doing at the moment is getting the Fed to print more money to pay the existing debt, that debt is then effectively owned by the Fed and they will take payment back.

The inevitable downgrade of debt will mean an almost certain 1% hike (maybe more) on the interest rate on loans. That gives the US an instant 150 billion a year additional bill. Quite a lot when the cuts you are proposing only total 900 Billion.

BombayDuck
31st Jul 2011, 09:45
or he becomes the first President to bring the Country to default

A minor quibble: I don't think the US will default. There is enough money to service the debt, but not enough to meet debt + expenditures. So the treasury or whoever will have to stop paying salaries of people like servicemen and hold off on stuff like social security (if I remember right). It's not a good thing, but it saves the credit rating and does not drive up the interest rates on any future credit.

Mach Turtle:

- The debt-rating agencies demonstrated in 2008 that their stated ratings don't mean too much?

Agreed. Most of them don't seem to know their arse from their elbow and hold way too much clout.

- And anyway, whose sovereign debt would you rather have, if not that of the United States?


At this time, only Germany seems to be loved as much :)

- If the U.S. debt is downgraded and the country has to pay higher interest...so what?

- What is "default" anyway? If those banks were too big to fail, what is the United States?

If default happened, it will make the post-Lehman recession look like a simple case of bad indigestion compared to a close-range shotgun blast. Ask Greece, that has an interest rate more than ten times the US. If you think the debt is out of control today, with a rising interest rate it becomes exponential.

The knock-on effects will be bad, too. The US is the single largest consumer of stuff in the world. After 2008, when the west started hoarding cash instead of spending it hit everyone, from suppliers to manufacturers to vendors. There's a saying that when the US sneezes, the world catches a cold - it's still true.

BombayDuck
31st Jul 2011, 10:00
Fact, fiction... same thing

v5igKuNF1rI

(from The West Wing)

Henry09
31st Jul 2011, 10:02
Bombay

There is enough money to service the debt, but not enough to meet debt + expenditures. So the treasury or whoever will have to stop paying salaries of people like servicemen and hold off on stuff like social security (if I remember right). It's not a good thing, but it saves the credit rating and does not drive up the interest rates on any future credit.

1. They don't have enough money

2. Any member of the US government that would publicly sanction witholding servicemens pay in favour of servicing of a debt would be killed in the stampede of US citizens rushing to lynch them. It is just not an option.

KAG
31st Jul 2011, 11:12
Brace brace brace

KAG
31st Jul 2011, 11:36
WASHINGTON — New budget talks between top Congressional Republicans and President Obama made progress late Saturday, suddenly stirring optimism that a last-minute deal could be reached to avert a potential federal default that threatened significant economic and political consequences.

Henry09
31st Jul 2011, 11:40
They will make a deal on Tuesday, much handshaking and jolly hockey sticks back slapping. Why didn't they do it a week ago and save the markets hundreds of millions!

arcniz
31st Jul 2011, 12:54
Why didn't they do it a week ago and save the markets hundreds of millions!

I volunteer the theory that it serves nearly everyone's interests ( in DC and NYC) to have this controversy now and in the present form:

-- helps the politicos look like issue oriented powerhouses, when in fact they aren't doing a damn thing.
-- creates an illusion that folks are eager in DC to get away from same-old same-old, when that likely is untrue. The whole system functions on things familiar, and the bureaucrats and 'ticians involved kinda like it that way.
--mid-summer is a terrible time for the markets... and the current period is all uncharted territory - due to systematic structural market instabilities in recent prior years. With a terrible crisis-narrowly-averted scenario that gets everybody's juices going for a month and some, attention is diverted away from the crumbling economy and total lack of political will to put mechanisms in place to make things better in a methodical, deliberate, and systematic way. Politicians on all sides of every issue BENEFIT from crisis, disruption, fear, and disaster --because all the begging for more sense, more focus, more action, eventually must go throuigh their franchise, with campaign money changing hands for the ones who promise to make it all right.
--Europe is quietly coming apart over the inconsistency between the commercial, political, and financial faces of the still incompletely built EU. By end of summer the EU will likely be in another descending spiral, while the US will (theatrically) appear to be growing in focus and political will to fix its economic weaknesses. Priceless, that is, for trade negotiations, exchange rates, and the flow of trade opportunities.

Bottomline --what this July Kabuki in DC does is help build a resilient base under the (previously softening) US financial markets, shake out the easily frightened and embolden the hangers-on; with overal effect being to greatly reduce chances for the "Crash of 2011", come September, October, November. The US will look like it is working to control its economics, while the EU will look more and more like it is structurally unable to do so.

Whose paper chits are the other countries and people of the World going to stockpile then?

Mimpe
31st Jul 2011, 14:44
You can hardly call it a AAA rated political process you have there.

The nation appears to be deeply divided and digesting itself.

Way too much money wasted, year in year out. Way too much vitriol and ideological debate. Way way too much military spending.

The guy on the news tonight mentioned that Apple Corp has more cash on hand than the entire US of A this week.

Sack them all ( the politicians!) and contract the process to the Prime Minister of New Zealand, Norway, or someone sensible.

Henry09
31st Jul 2011, 14:59
Mimpe


In light of this evenings statement re Apple, maybe they should offer the position to Steve Jobs!

SASless
31st Jul 2011, 15:21
As messy as the system is.....it does work once the People get involved as evidenced by the influence the Tea Party movement had upon our national discourse. It took about two years for the People to be heard, the past election demonstrated the strength of that voice, and the fact the newly elected Congressmen and Senators brought that message directly to the floor of Congress clearly proves ultimately the People must be listened to by those in political office.

I don't suppose anyone from the UK or Europe is in a position to lecture Americans about our system of government as you folks on the eastern end of the saltwater divide seem to be having your very own problems currently. You folks in Oz have been having your own problems and do not appear to be immune from the same issues we are confronting here.

Does it matter how one gets to the destination so long as one selects the proper destination and successfully gets there?

Just how many governments has Italy had in the past ten years? How successful have Spain, Greece, Portugal, and Ireland been with their systems?

We are seeing the Liberal, Socialist, Nanny state way of governing collapsing all over the world.....just as Communism has fallen. Personal freedom comes with a duty of care just as most things in life. You are seeing that played out in the USA today. The important thing is the change is being brought about by the People and not the government as government in this case is the problem.

Our Founding Fathers warned us about this when they formed our government in such a manner as to restrict the central government from growing too powerful. In time we shall return to those concepts and the country and the world shall be a much better place for it.

One Man's opinion anyway.

Henry09
31st Jul 2011, 15:34
SASless

I don't suppose anyone from the UK or Europe is in a position to lecture Americans about our system of government as you folks on the eastern end of the saltwater divide seem to be having your very own problems currently. You folks in Oz have been having your own problems and do not appear to be immune from the same issues we are confronting here.


Nobody is lecturing! The debate on this thread has tended to be just that, debate and it has all been pretty much grown up and very informative. Lets not go the way of the US hamsterwheel where every American sees every comment as an attack. It's not, and in general because that has not been the case on this thread it has been quite refreshing. Remember, when the actions of a few men who are not conducting themselves in an efficient or effective way are costing investors around the globe many millions of dollars, most people have a right to make comment, positive or negative.

onetrack
31st Jul 2011, 15:39
I don't understand where Americas economic recovery is going to come from. American manufacturing industry is but a shadow of what it was, thanks to Americas corporate leaders transferring all manufacturing to any 3rd world country where they can get it made cheapest.
Add in the Americans appetite for all things Chinese (Wal-Marts budget with China's suppliers, is bigger than the entire Chinese products value, supplied to the WHOLE of Australias population)... and things are looking decidedly unhealthy for Americans in general.

You can hardly buy any U.S.-made machine tools or engineering supplies any more. America built it's vast wealth on its manufacturing industries, its innovation and its machine tools.
I bought some Irwin and Vermont American cobalt drills off eBay last month... and despite the packets proudly wearing U.S. indicators such as the long-standing, well-known names, and the Stars & Stripes... all the drill bits, without exception... were made in China. :suspect:

Boeing is struggling... the U.S. space exploration industry has just had the lights turned out... the U.S. car manufacturers look like they've just come back from doing 14 rounds straight with Mike Tyson... and took a king hit in every round (from the Japs, the Koreans, and next, the Chinese car makers). The American defence industry is going to come under severe scrutiny for "budget cuts".

Caterpillar must be the only bright light in the American economy. God help the Americans when the Chinese ramp up their earthmoving equipment lines and sales.
Cat already have 10 factories in China, the plans for the next Cats will already be in Chinese hands... :suspect:

I'm inclined to agree greatly with Henry09. The pollies will take this to the wire, then reach a compromise that will be in place as the axe is about to fall.
However, looking down the track, what will deep cuts in expenditure do to the already weak American economy?
People who work for the Govt will now find themselves in dole queues, and have much less to spend. Americas economy is based on people spending money. When the spending dries up, the economy falters.
Unfortunately, the GOP and its strident Tea Party members have produced no worthy alternative as to what they will do to revive the stagnant American economy.
They have no visible, well-known, and competent leader that is a shining beacon of hope in these dark days. A leader with a well-thought-out, viable plan for economic recovery, is just not on the radar.

The start of the current rot was under Reagan, when the American public debt levels were tripled, whilst economists lauded the "gains" made in the American economy. It's now obvious those "gains" merely involved buying flash new furniture with borrowed money.
Now the flash new furniture of Uncle Sam is worn out... and the CC bill for it, is still there. And the scary part is, the Republicans can offer nothing of value to the American people... save deep cuts in Govt services, increased interest rates, and a greenback that is rapidly approaching Peso or Lira status. There's a lot of pain coming for Americans, and no-one... not even the Republicans, have any anaesthetic... :{

KAG
31st Jul 2011, 15:51
Count down: 2 days

bearfoil
31st Jul 2011, 15:58
Nothing of any value will come of Congress' or Obama's work.

The best plan (that will gain approval) is a cruel joke. It is reliant on ignorance and selfishness to escape a bellylaugh.

If there is a political solution, it will come (as usual) from an ice water bath. At times like these, when the majority are clueless, it only takes time for the pendulum to swing back.

Democracy is painfully slow; what is troubling is having a despot in place when the Masses accede to abrupt change. Obama is useless; he does not Lead, and he listens to the wrong side.

Having "followed" DC's lead for the past generation, we are lumbering into the last two possibilities available.

1. Ignore them.

2. Fight

bear

KAG
31st Jul 2011, 16:10
Very close to an agreement??? Ready to abort count down...

SASless
31st Jul 2011, 16:29
Bear.....I still like the thought of what a catalyst Pitchforks, Tar, Feathers, and Fence Rails would be to all of this! As you succinctly state...."Fight!"

I sent an email to the Tea Party at both the state and national level suggesting a showing to Washington what real "Grid Lock" looks like....do it on a work day....and tie up every major intersection possible starting at about Two PM.

An alternative plan would be to follow up the next morning with the same thing at about 6 AM. Let'em sit in on the interstates, ring roads, and main throughfares all over the DC metropolitan area!

Henry09
31st Jul 2011, 16:42
SASless

Now that's more like it :ok:

con-pilot
31st Jul 2011, 17:22
In my opinion, politicians have their priorities in the following order:

1. Reelection.

2. Pleasing their major contributers. (see above)

3. Pleasing their constituents. (see number 1)

4. The nation's welfare.

So now we are seeing acting, from both sides, of them trying to do all four at the same time, but assuring that number one has priority.

It does not help that we have not had a budget passed in over 800 days. There is still no budget for this year. That was supposed to have passed back in September of 2010, when the Democrats controlled the White House, Senate and the House.

Three guesses as to why they did not, first two don't count.


Duck

So the treasury or whoever will have to stop paying salaries of people like servicemen and hold off on stuff like social security

Well you see that's just it. We can make all the Social Security payments and pay the military. We have the funds, but other programs will have to be scaled back or completely cut, but the money is there.

Bottom line is, Obama is the one that will make the decision as to who receives payments and who does not. By saying that grandpa and grandma will starve if the evil Republicans do not cave in and give Obama what he and the Democrats want, he is using fear tactics.

Sadly a majority of Americans really believe that the President is government. So if grandpa and grandma starve, they'll blame Obama, fairly or not, they will. So Obama using fear tactics will most likely jump up and bite him on the buttocks.

But I am one of those that believe that an agreement will be reached at the last minute. But don't bet the farm on that. :p

Henry09
31st Jul 2011, 17:45
Watching an interview with Michigan Republican Thaddeus McCotter, he really seems to have his head screwed on. Very knowledgable in terms of economics (and he likes Led Zepplin!!). Any views on this guy? He just strikes me as really knowing what the solutions are.

He is bidding for the Presidency. I haven't seen anyone talk off the cuff like this guy is doing and really know his shit. Impressive on first impressions.

edited to add. Well the interview is finished. He was Presidential, seemed just what the people need, but sadly what the big banks and big Government would hate. He was knowledgable, confident, erudite and determined. He seems to understand the critical actions that need to be taken to get the US back on track and that the American people are the only ones that can do it, but that they need to be unshackled. I don't know his past history or what skeletons he has in the cupboard, but he gave a great account of himself.

Henry09
31st Jul 2011, 19:44
Anyone from stateside there? I am seeing online (nothing on news channels) that the senate have just blocked Reids vote. There is now no chance of an agreement today and certainly nothing from the House of reps today (Sunday). Any updates from the news channels guys.

tony draper
31st Jul 2011, 19:51
I'm keeping me eye on events here Mr Henry.:)
Live Video - C-SPAN | C-SPAN (http://www.c-span.org/Live-Video/C-SPAN/)

Henry09
31st Jul 2011, 20:00
Mr D

A great link, got it thanks. Just caught the back end of the Senate debate, saying it had failed and thought it must be a recording as John McCain spent most of his time laughing, then it flicked to the recording on now from Friday.

Confused over!

11Fan
31st Jul 2011, 21:26
Henry, as requested.

Watch the link Tony posted. If there is anything going on in the Senate Floor, they will go live. The story here sums it up so far though. Harry's "Plan" got nixed, although only 50 to 49. They are trying to bag two more votes to run it up the flagpole and then it goes back to the House of Representatives where it could go either way. If the Balanced Budget stays on there, it has a chance. I haven't read Harry's Proposal but it may be out there somewhere.

Senate Negotiators Scramble to Finalize Debt Deal After Reid Bill Tanks - FoxNews.com (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/07/31/late-attempt-at-debt-limit-deal-to-avert-default/)

con-pilot
31st Jul 2011, 21:33
On CNN, how to relate to other people at work. No connection with the debt thing.

MSNBC, "Will you kill for me; Charles Manson?". (No, I'm not kidding.)

Fox, Discussions on the pending Debt Ceiling Bills. Interviewing 'Tea Party' newly elected Congressmen/women. Apparently both the most liberal and conservative Members of Congress are against all the bills being considered.

11Fan
31st Jul 2011, 21:38
I checked The Golf Channel. The President is 4 over through 6.

galaxy flyer
31st Jul 2011, 21:43
On the NASA Channel (yes, there is one; no, I don't know why), he's just like the Space Shuttle--grounded!

GF

PS: I'm posting on GOGO connection on DL. Someone once said, "when luxuries become necessities, that's decadence.". Well, we're decadent folks. We maybe going to hell in a handcart, but that cart will have a Pprune connection. (Expensed, of course)

11Fan
31st Jul 2011, 21:51
PS: I'm posting on GOGO connection on DL

Finally letting your FO fly a leg?

galaxy flyer
31st Jul 2011, 22:03
Where do you think I work, Northwest? In my usual steed, the Internet is available, but the bandwidth is much less, so I give it to the pax. After all, they bought it.

GF

11Fan
31st Jul 2011, 22:09
I know bro. Having a go. ;)

Safe trip.

prospector
31st Jul 2011, 22:48
All this politicking goes to show the great weakness of Democracy.

The only qualification required to vote is reaching a certain age, which in its self is no qualification at all.

bearfoil
31st Jul 2011, 23:27
Back up three years. Take the three trillion squandered on "bailouts, "BAIL", and acquisition of bankrupt "business". Invest it in debt reduction, lower taxes, and erasure of thirty percent of Federal bureaucracy.

Thousands of criminals would be in or on their way to PRISON, and the "Full Faith and Credit" of the USA would be healing its way to prosperity.

Banks own nothing, Equities are worth as much as a Las Vegas deck of cards or Dice, and the Mercantile is a phantom based on complicity of the principals, executed through ignorance of the People.

Money is as nothing, as we will soon see. Wealth is the foundation of our Land, not money. Where is Wealth? In our people, in our ethics, and in our Love of our Nation. Lost your Jag? 401k dried up?

Look to each other. Honor the Principles of our Founding, and do not forget the Blood of our Fathers.

Fight.

con-pilot
31st Jul 2011, 23:43
On NBC News they claim that the House Republicans are bypassing the Senate and going straight to Obama. Rumors have it that the Republicans and Obama are very close to a deal.

Then they turn right around and say that the House Republicans are now at fault because they will not buy off on Reid's plan which calls from major cutbacks in Defense. That would be the same Reid that tried to change the rules and refuses to allow any bill from the House to be voted on in the Senate.


I still say that an agreement will be reached by midnight Tuesday.

SASless
1st Aug 2011, 02:07
On Huckabee (Fox News) tonight....Lou Dobbs smacked it right out of the ball park! I shall pay far more attention to him in the future.

He reminded viewers of the Dollar doing much better against the Euro...and the Ten Year Federal Bond yield improving since all this flap has been going on. He suggested very strongly Moodys, and Standard and Poors both would be way out of bounds lowering the Nation's Credit Rating at this time with that going on no matter what agreement is signed about raising the debt limit.

11Fan
1st Aug 2011, 02:14
Fox News reporting that the President is saying "an agreement has been reached."

http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/IAPoeEzKpbMrLQsOYMTPmg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD0yMjU7cT04NTt3PTMwMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/forbes.com/dollar-black-hole-300x225.jpg

No votes were expected in either house of Congress until Monday at the earliest, to give rank-and-file lawmakers time to review the package.

News from The Associated Press (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_DEBT_SHOWDOWN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-07-31-21-05-43)

Boehner's Office released this.

http://www.speaker.gov/UploadedFiles/3-7-31-11-Debt-Framework-Boehner.pdf

Henry09
1st Aug 2011, 02:46
The World has gone mad.

Well in truth, with nothing being voted on by either house we are still no closer to a 'deal', yet the careful wording in the Whitehouse press release would have us believe that it is all done and dusted. All done to protect the markets today, and what a reaction. American Futures have soared resulting in most markets (even off trading) climbing 1.5% or more in the last hour. Rule 1, when you think you have the markets sussed, then stop, because you haven't and never will ;) The best advice is always follow the big boys, in this case, sit on your hands and keep your money under your hat until the melee is over. I can only feel sorry for the thousands of speculators who shorted the market last night because of the 'no deal'. And there is the power of politics. One carefully worded statement completely economical with the truth and they create the result they want.

11Fan

Thanks for the links. I think the public should be perturbed that all large Governments always seem to come to an 'emergency deal' at the 11th hour. I guess what the people need are systems in place that would allow their governments to make 'quality deals'. As Boehner says regarding this deal, 'it's not the best deal'! , well it begs the point 'well all you guys carry on working for the people who have elected you and pay you until you get the best deal'.

birrddog
1st Aug 2011, 04:21
Bone-head should be sacked. I hope the tea party show him the door.

This is the worst kind of deal, and we are going to go through the same uncertainty and problems all over again not far down the road.

The group of 6 plan was far better than this - that at least had real cuts, lowered taxes and was a more long term solution. Not perfect, though compared to this current 'done deal' a far better and more serious proposition.

What kills me, is that these folks who spend our money, still need a committee, to see where substantial cuts and reforms can be made. If they have no solid ideas now they never will.

Mind blowing.

Henry09
1st Aug 2011, 04:55
As I said earlier, we seem to exist on 'emergency decisions', decisions made by politicians in overnight, late session, exhausting stressed out processes. Can't we for once have decisions made during normal working hours during the normal working week, in timescales that would allow the best possible decisions to be made for the people and the country.

I thought it was revealing yesterday listening to the House Chaplain say a prayer as Boehner temporarily opened the House. Here is the link


House Session - C-SPAN Video Library (http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/HouseSession5247)

I nearly choked on my soup and bread roll! What a Freudian slip! Good to see where the people and the country are on the pecking order.So you are all relying on the 'goodness and generousity of the people who have power', and the people in power need 'wisdom and courage to be concerned not only with their personal interests but also the interests of the people who have no power'. Ya see, they're even trying to get God to see things their way;)

crippen
1st Aug 2011, 05:12
http://www.toonpool.com/user/1292/files/us_debt_ceiling_1379485.jpg