Cliffords View of I R

[fishers.ghost]

AUSTRALIAN businesses were being forced to operate in an industrial relations environment that was taking the country back to the 1960s, business leaders warned yesterday.

Qantas chairman Leigh Clifford told
The Australian
& Deutsche Bank Business Leaders forum in Melbourne yesterday that he considered industrial relations as the biggest issue confronting business, saying if not properly addressed it could mean "armageddon" for the economy.
"The situation in Australian industry, certainly in the airline industry, is we are competing in a very competitive environment . . . we've got to make sure we are productive and we are creative," he said.
He said union leaders boasting of wage increases with no productivity offsets was like taking the nation "back to the 1960s".
He noted the global economic environment and high value of the Australian dollar meant management, employees and union leaders had to think hard about how to address productivity and business costs "so that we don't have armageddon down the track".
Qantas is facing the prospect of industrial action on three fronts over new workplace agreements.
There is currently a bargaining standoff between the airline and its international pilots, who are worried about job security given the expansion of the budget carrier Jetstar and its plans to make greater use of overseas-based pilots.
Qantas engineers have started a campaign of industrial action, while the Transport Workers Union -- whose members include baggage handlers, refuellers and catering staff -- has also warned of industrial action in coming weeks by its members.
"I think the pendulum has swung back quite dramatically," said Mr Clifford of the industrial relations climate.
"I would describe it as going back almost before the enterprise bargaining environment.
"There is an element of pattern bargaining creeping back in," he added, referring to peripheral and specific claims.
"One of the debates we are having is: should Qantas build a maintenance hangar? This is part of the labour negotiation. I think that is ridiculous."
Lindsay Maxsted, chairman of Transurban and chairman-elect of Westpac, described industrial relations as the "smoking gun" in the economy.
"I am seeing what Leigh is seeing in the resources sector, a lot of negotiations that all of us thought had finished in the 60s and 70s but they are back on the table."
Ziggy Switkowski, a company director and a former chief executive of telecommunication companies Telstra and Optus, sheeted home blame to a coalition government of Labor and the Greens.
"The fact there is more emphasis on social engineering, wealth redistribution, labour market regulation and increasing the intrusiveness of government in our lives shouldn't surprise us.
"(It is not) overwhelmingly so, but we are seeing signs of all of that. That is what we collectively voted for and that is what the current coalition (of Labor and the Greens) is delivering."
Mr Clifford called for recognition of cost structures at an enterprise level, saying uniform wage rates from Queensland, to Tasmania to Western Australia could kill local businesses.
Referring to Rio Tinto's aluminium smelter in Bell Bay, Tasmania, Mr Clifford said "employees there are probably very happy to have those jobs", saying wages there should not be linked to what someone is paid in Queensland "or for that matter what is paid in Canada or elsewhere".
"We have to look at the enterprise's circumstance . . . that has come off the agenda a little bit of late."
David Knox, chief executive of Adelaide-based energy company Santos, was far more circumspect than other panel members in criticising the government, particularly on industrial relations.
"For us in our history it has not been a major issue for us and it isn't right now," he noted on the industrial relations framework.
"I think the key thing is it mustn't become an issue.
"We have managed through it with productivity gains over the years. I think it is all about making sure it does not become an issue."

[standard unit]

Referring to Rio Tinto's aluminium smelter in Bell Bay, Tasmania, Mr Clifford said "employees there are probably very happy to have those jobs", saying wages there should not be linked to what someone is paid in Queensland "or for that matter what is paid in Canada or elsewhere".

Oh, but it's entirely appropriate to have wages linked to what's paid in China, Malaysia, Thailand or any other suchlike developing country. :yuk:

Pure self serving filth.

[The Green Goblin]

Yet managements wages are linked globally with the highest paying corporations.

Yep, what a knob.

[stubby jumbo]

agree-where do clowns like this bloke -get off.

Its all about screw the workers and grind the icon into the dirt.

Comments like this one:

"we've got to make sure we are productive and we are creative"

Oh yeah....CREATIVE ??? I'll tell you what CREATIVE is.
Its smart business practice, its treating your staff with respect, its investing in a quality product, its recognition of the fact that we have to work together to get over the "legacy"(sic :yuk:) issues we keep hearing about, its having a creative approach to leveraging off the One World alliance -to offset the fact that we are at the end of the cul-de-sac, its getting rid of spin,lies and deceit from senior management and finally its about being CREATIVE with the IR agenda....that is... not ALWAYS FCKUNI CONFRONTATIONAL (NB: Oldmeadow Consulting):ugh:

When are the Shareholders going to wake up to the fact that the bunch we have in "charge" at the moment couldn't run a chook raffle at the local Bowlo.

ARMAGEDDON .......my Arse. Almost on par with the kamikaze comment.

TOTAL AMATEURS

[teresa green]

Clifford advising Gillard? Now there's a pair, neither could organise a grapevine over a fence.

[neville_nobody]

QF management have done this line many times over the years. They compare the workers cost to some dodgy airline in China, failing to recognise those airlines pay more for insurance, training, have to keep buying brand new aircraft and crash the odd one here and there, whilst comparing management salaries to GE or BP and telling everyone that they need to pay top dollar to get the best people.

we've got to make sure we are productive and we are creative
How about changing the way management are paid?? That's creative. Abolish KPI's. Then see what results. You might find that when managers no longer can make easy money out of destroying their own airline they might actually come up with some creative solutions.

[standard unit]

The most breathtaking piece of self serving hypocrisy was the recent push by Australia's richest person Gina Rinehart agitating to have mining workers flown and and flown out of Asia to work in her mines because she can't stomach paying the going rate.

Market forces only ever being championed by the elite when it is in their favour.

She claims that the justification for this being on "humanitarian" grounds.:yuk:

Fckuing unbelievable given the pig is worth 10.3 billion.

Gina Reinhart becomes first woman to top the BRW rich list with $10.3 billion fortune | Courier Mail (http://www.couriermail.com.au/ipad/gina-reinhart-becaomes-first-woman-to-top-the-brw-rich-list-with-103-billion-fortune/story-fn6ck45n-1226062773828)


Lessons for Australia from Singapore Gina Rinehart, guest workers (http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/what-australia-can-learn-from-singapore-20110310-1boi9.html)

Sorry for the thread drift but there is so much wrong with social, political and economic debate in this country. IMHO.

[Luke SkyToddler]

wage increases with no productivity offsets was like taking the nation "back to the 1960s"

all of us thought had finished in the 60s and 70s but they are back on the table

This 1960's that you're so scared of going back to ... would that be the same 1960s when QF was experiencing massive growth, was highly profitable, the travelling public idolized it, it was widely perceived as an innovator and a world beater among global airlines, and its' competitors feared it because it took huge chunks of market share whenever it opened a new route, which was frequent and often?

Yeah would be terrible to go back to those days :hmm:

Seriously, you know they're running scared when they start busting out the spectre of "going back to the '60s" to get sympathy from their fellow CEO's ...

Does someone have the figures to hand for how much a, say, senior captain made in the '60s and how much a top level airline management made? And what is the multiple of the one to the other?

I think we might find that there's only ONE group of people that has benefitted from nose bleedingly massive quantum "wage increases with no productivity offsets" since the '60s. :hmm:

Greedy :mad: ers the lot of them, with their snouts so deep in the trough I'm amazed they can still come up for air

[lame1]

Why in the hell would anyone be listening to Ziggy or Cliffor,both are failed businessmen.Have a good look at what Ziggy achieved at Telstra and the Clifford at Rio.I bet their pay packets have never reduced like the performance of the company they managed.Pay increases linked to productivity should apply to management as well as workers.

[1me]

I just love the fact that management are the ones who are stifling negotiation, alienating employees, inciting industrial unrest and then turning around and blaming us for it! And we're the ones who are taking the country back to the '60's??

Mr Clifford, had you a modicum of aptitude and common sense you would see that there is no need to be confrontational to achieve positive outcomes. Here's an idea.. how about actually engaging staff and harnessing their enthusiasm and creativity to make Qantas truly a world leader? I know this will NEVER happen. You who occupy positions of authority know best don't you?

Here is an open invitation to you Mr Clifford to bring ALL your board mates along with Exco and come down onto the floor and tell us your plans face to face. One word.. jellyfish..

[breakfastburrito]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://group.barclays.com/html_phase_2/assets/img/barclays-logo.png
Leigh is Chairman of Qantas Airways Limited
http://group.barclays.com/cs/Satellite?blobcol=urldata&blobkey=id&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobwhere=1231864027854&ssbinary=true
Name: Leigh Clifford
Position: Non-Executive Director
Works in: Non-Executive Director

Leigh is Chairman of Qantas Airways Limited, a Director of Bechtel Group Inc, Chairman of Bechtel Australia Pty Ltd and Senior Adviser to Kohlberg, Kravis, Roberts and Co. Leigh Joined the Rio Tinto Group in 1970 and was a Director of Rio Tinto plc from 1994 and Rio Tinto Limited from 1995, and was Chief Executive of the Rio Tinto Group from 2000 until 2007.

Leigh is a member of the Board HR and Remuneration Committee and the Barclays Asia Pacific Advisory Committee.
------------------------------------------------------
Barclays Bank (http://group.barclays.com/About-us/Management-structure/The-Board/Biography/1225802846125.html)



He said union leaders boasting of wage increases with no productivity offsets was like taking the nation "back to the 1960s".

Leigh, I have a question for you. There has been continuous "productivity" improvements since the 70's, why then, has the price of my basket of goods that I need (note, needs,not wants) risen astronomically over the last 40 years?

Leigh, as a board member of one of the Anglo-European banking cartel members, you understand the fiat money scam, and you know the answer. Government & the banks have massively increased the amount of money & credit in circulation (out of thin air, and charging interest on it), far beyond the increase in goods & services available.

Therefore, there is more money chasing the same goods & hence the price rise. Note also, this is an "apparent" price rise. In reality it is because money is being debased, it is losing value. Prices are not rising - money is falling in value. Therefore, without a pay rise to compensate for this debasement workers purchasing power is continuously eroded by the banking system that you preside over.

To put it another way, without a pay increase matching the official CPI* rate, workers doing the identical work take an automatic pay cut each and every year by the process of inflation. This is why those on fixed incomes from the government get an increase matching the CPI, for without it they would be destitute within a short space of time.

I would agree with your argument if we were in the 60's and the currency was to a much larger degree a store of value. Under this environment, gaining a pay rise without a productivity increase is unjustified, as it results in an unearned increase in purchasing power. Yes, some unions did gain unearned purchasing power for their members during this time. However, the reverse is now true, business is now able to automatically cut real wages simply by holding them constant, or increasing below the rate of inflation* in nominal terms.

So, in short there is a significant difference between the period up to Aug 15 1971, and from that time until now. In fact, during almost the entire 1800's there was very mild deflation in the cost of living - due almost entirely to productivity increases, which actually resulted in lower prices of the goods produced by these efficiencies. Of course during this period, currencies that were backed by tangible assets were a stable store of value.

Which comes back to the question I began with, if we are seeing increases in productivity, why is my basket of necessities increasing in price?


Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon.
Wincott Memorial Lecture, London, September 16, 1970


It's not the workers that are causing the problems, it the governments printing money, and the banking system creating money out of thin air that is causing the inflation, and devaluing the workers real income every year. Give us a stable store of value & we won't need to ask for pay rises without increasing productivity.

* The official rate of CPI is usually underestimates the real CPI, by as much as a factor of two see shadowstats.com (http://www.shadowstats.com/))

[Oldmate]

Great post BB!

From the recent speeches and announcements I get the distinct impression that the board/senior management feel like they could lose a few of the IR battles that they have provoked.

[Crew rest.]

Funny how JB is making offers to the VA guys that are actually a way foreward. Soon Virgin Australia will be the airline employeer of choice. Hiring starting later this year. No 'pay for ratings' in VA soon to be the case in VB I hear.


(I 2nd that, great post BB:D)

[Roger Greendeck]

I thought VA already was the employer of choice given that its conditions are better on pretty much every level than Jetstar or Tiger and Qantas haven't been recruiting for years.

[porch monkey]

Haven't heard about the no pay for ratings bit yet. Doubt that would apply to newcomers. Internal transfers, then yes, already does in most cases. If you compare apples to apples, ie, at the same o/t cut in point, we are close enough to equivalency as it is. The "peripherals" are where the major differences lie now, hopefully some of these to be addressed shortly.
One thing to keep in mind though, is that if QF/jetstar get away with this offshoring and jobs transfer bull****, it WILL directly affect us and our conditions down the track. As much as JB has said he wants to keep as much work here in Australia as possible, you cannot just ignore it when your main competitors end up with a cost advantage like that. I am convinced he wouldn't go down that road by his own choice, but business imperatives may dictate otherwise. Rest assured we across the road are watching very carefully, and support your endeavors.

[ozaggie]

How come everytime I see or hear LC or AJ or that feckin' pirate Loosecannon, I feel all homicidal? I'm a perfectly normal 53 yo aggie with no direct connection to QF, no shares, no relatives working there, nothin. But get this you slandering, libelous, snouts in the trough m'feckin QF directors, I am Australian to the core and you are messing with my heritage, my country's reputation and goodwill, and my children's and grandchildrens inheritance. The labor govt in SA (whom I despise) had the guts to ban mining in Arkaroola
Sanctuary yesterday, and while it will cost the taxpayer megabucks, I say hooray. We gotta leave something behind. Clifford wouldn't know about that. His job has always been to dig it up and ship it overseas. Well don't do it to my airline. I paid for it with blood sweat and tears, along with every othr Oz taxpayer. Have not seen any of my friends get a dividend for awhile but you seem to get one every year. Get out of our kitchen you a'holes!
Hope the pilots, engineers and everyone at the coalface of QF can win this. It's not just about jobs, it's also about our national identity.
Rant over OA

[bandit2]

Clifford, If trying to get 3% payrise and a bit of job security is living in the 60's & 70's. What f%{^%ng era are you living when you give yourselves those ridiculos payrises & bonus's. You & your irish mate are not getting any sympathy from the public. Everytime you get an audience, you whinge & whine about the engineers & pilots. It's like listening to a 3 year old who didn't get their lollies. Grow up!!!

[Anthill]

Porch Monkey, I dont know what the Short-Haul EBA will yeild however, the LH EBA has written in a clause for type rating supplied by Virgin and a 30 month return of service. CzFO salaries up to a base of $77K, SFO base $139k and Capts $224. All + 9% super, home base allocation, overtime, PBS rostering, enhanced allowances... About 3% annual increases too. It's almost like JB is making great efforts to stir up the troops at J*. :p

VA employing, too, with inductions on the B777 later this year. It might not be a bad move for some at J* or Tiger. Could be a step backwards for SOs at QF, but would provide career path.

[Long Bay Mauler]

In the 2001 Qantas Annual Report, James Strong's fixed remuneration was $1,426,500.

In the 2011 Qantas Annual Report, Alan Joyce's fixed remuneration is $2,000,000.

These figures do not include any other bonuses or entitlements.

Have normal workers pay packets risen accordingly Mr Clifford?

Is the fact that workers are asking for a bit of certainty from the leadership of these companies too much to ask?

Would you have it that Australia revert to a country of 3rd world infrastructure and living conditions,because that is what is at stake if you and the "so-called" business leaders of Australia have your way.

Mr Clifford & friends, you seem to be asking the workforce to accept lesser wages & conditions, do you want your grand children to grow up in a country, that would resemble China or Indonesia of today?

[sfde]

Why is it that after the GFC with the US and europe still in the **** anyone at all listens to these f***wits. I can't ever remember an airline failing due to workers income but a few have from mis-management.

[RATpin]

Standard Unit, I think you're comparing apples & oranges in the case of Ms Rinehart. The issue in the mining industry is not about driving down wages and conditions, it's about being able to find and employ skilled workers that are so thin on the ground in AU that FIFO workers are being poached at PH airport.
I suggest you stick to Qantas issues rather than display your ignorance of the mining industry and apparently your dislike of successful employers.
Much better to employ more parasites in CB eh?
I find the term "Pig" in reference to a good business woman offensive.

[gobbledock]

I find the term "Pig" in reference to a good business woman offensive.
He wasn't referring to her being a business woman, he was referring to her 'outward appearance' . It could have been worse, he could have called her Olivia !!!

[1me]

RATpin.. wrt Ms Rinehart.. one does not get to be worth $10.3 billion by being philanthropic. Businesses don't do things that benefit their employees unless there is something in it for the employer. I venture that her company would be no different in this regard.

Also in her article she was talking of un-skilled and semi-skilled workers not just skilled workers. Surely unskilled workers can be sourced locally?

And as for the "pig" reference... seriously??? Perhaps the HUP principle needs some application.. :p

[Come in spinner]

"I think the pendulum has swung back quite dramatically," said Mr Clifford

You bet it has sweet heart and you had better get used to it:D

In the 70's the unions had too much power but prior to that the employers had too much power.
Under Howard the swing on the upside, to the benefit of employers was quite astounding.

It was always going to swing back, it is just taking longer than I thought it would.

Game On:ok:

[Sunfish]

RATpin:

Standard Unit, I think you're comparing apples & oranges in the case of Ms Rinehart. The issue in the mining industry is not about driving down wages and conditions, it's about being able to find and employ skilled workers that are so thin on the ground in AU that FIFO workers are being poached at PH airport.
I suggest you stick to Qantas issues rather than display your ignorance of the mining industry and apparently your dislike of successful employers.
Much better to employ more parasites in CB eh?
I find the term "Pig" in reference to a good business woman offensive.

With the greatest respect Ratty, you are missing the point. In order to become skilled you require training and experience - this is usually provided by an apprenticeship of some sort.

Needless to say, the mining companies that are howling about a lack of skilled labour haven't bothered to train any apprentices themselves, instead they wish to poach skilled workers from companies or governments that trained them.

I was listening to Dean Mighell (ETU) on radio when he made exactly this point. He has Fifty apprentice electricians on his books in Victoria and can't find places for them in industry .....while everybody is howling about a lack of tradesman.

[What The]

Dear Gina,

Sure, you can set up a "Special Economic Zone" and import foreign labour to fix your "skills shortage". However, any profits will be taxed at 60% if the employees are not remunerated as per Australian Workplace Agreements.

Please let us know if you are still experiencing a "skills shortage" after receipt of this letter.

Regards,

The Australian Workers
(From whose toil you have become extremely wealthy)

[gnomie]

On Australian Agenda (Skynews Sunday Am) it was good to see Tony Sheldon take a swipe at Qantas and LC exporting Australian jobs overseas for cheap foreign labour at the expense of Australian workers. And how the Labour government and minister stand by and allow this situation to develop.

[tail wheel]

Needless to say, the mining companies that are howling about a lack of skilled labour haven't bothered to train any apprentices themselves...

Sorry Sunny but that is simply not true, although I agree the resource sector generally tends to decimate the trade skilled labour market.

[Clipped]

"One of the debates we are having is: should Qantas build a maintenance hangar? This is part of the labour negotiation. I think that is ridiculous."


Shutting down H245, leaving it vacant, while the 747 fleet reliability diminished, and now resurrecting the hangar. Lying through your teeth that the buildings had to make way for the airport expansion.

Cliffy, I'll tell you what is ridiculous.

[RATpin]

Sunfish,I agree with the general thrust of your argument,however,lack of Industry investment in training has been happening for a considerable time and can't see that changing anytime soon.

Unfortunately,Governments have sold off many of the traditional training grounds for apprentices over the last few decades and clearly private enterprise has not seen the value of continuing the investment in training which is now bitting.

So the problem of skilled workforce shortage will in part be resolved by foreign skilled and semi skilled workers wether we like it or not.

P.S. I know of a Company here that recently lost a major contract to an overseas competitor, as a result, around eighty apprenticeships had to be cancelled including my sons.

[Nunc]

Interesting that when Ansett was run by a pilot (and it's founder Reg god bless him) it was a profitable enterprise and a great place to work, when over taken by these masters of the universe it now no longer exists, if only the shareholders (read as instituitions) could rid QF of Joyce and Clifford and give a fantastic icon a chance to survive and prosper for BOTH shareholders (read instituitions and mum and dad investors) and loyal long suffering employee's.

[GlobalMaster]

It is possible Nunc.

A Keep Qantas Australian Business Plan endorsed by QF's entire workforce may well be preferable to a majority of Qantas’ shareholders/investors if it can be shown to be just as profitable and not unaustralian.

Ethical investment is not just about tobacco, alcohol and the Tab.

[Pukka]

Ralph Norris to replace both aj and lc as Exec Chairman the only hope left for a dead duck icon

[Torres]

Mr Clifford

Your statements regarding the Australian industrial relations environment are not correct. Statistics confirm that in the past two decades under both Conservative and Labour Government legislation, the incidence of labour strikes has significantly declined:

ABS Statistics:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/Woomera/PPRuNe/Strikegraph.jpg


For the March quarter 2011, there were 37 disputes, 33 fewer than in the December quarter 2010.
The number of employees involved in industrial disputes in the March quarter 2011 was 11,100, a decrease from 17,000 in the December quarter 2010.
There were 19,700 working days lost due to industrial disputation in the March quarter 2011, a decrease from 27,200 in the December quarter 2010.
The Transport, postal and warehousing industry accounted for 9,200 (47%) of the total number of working days lost in the March quarter 2011. The Transport, postal and warehousing industry also had the highest number of working days lost per thousand employees (17.6) for the quarter.
In the March quarter 2011, Queensland accounted for 7,400 (38%) of working days lost.
During the year ended March 2011, there were 212 disputes, 23 fewer than in the year ended March 2010.
During the year ended March 2011, there were 117,500 working days lost compared with 149,900 in the year ended March 2010.


It is time Qantas re-engaged it's staff with the intention of reaching equitable industrial relations solutions in an environment of mutual compromise and integrity! :=

[4dogs]

Folks,

Perhaps the real message for these people was delivered by one of their own (generically speaking):

David Knox, chief executive of Adelaide-based energy company Santos, was far more circumspect than other panel members in criticising the government, particularly on industrial relations.
"For us in our history it has not been a major issue for us and it isn't right now," he noted on the industrial relations framework.
"I think the key thing is it mustn't become an issue.
"We have managed through it with productivity gains over the years. I think it is all about making sure it does not become an issue.

I suspect that Santos is not at war with its employees and that there is mutual respect between management and the workforce - the result is an industrially stable and productive business. As a Santos shareholder, I am more than happy if a little of my potential return is spent in guaranteeing that there will be a future stream of reasonable returns.

Stay Alive,

[Short_Circuit]

With ref to H245, it is only being refitted (ie gutted of 747 docking) is to give it to Jetstar for 787 work... :yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:

[1me]

With ref to H245, it is only being refitted (ie gutted of 747 docking) is to give it to Jetstar for 787 work... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/pukey.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/pukey.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/pukey.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/pukey.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/pukey.gifShort Circuit, I really hope that's merely a cynical observation of yours.. Although, far be it for the powers-that-be to say one thing and then do another.. :ugh:

[unionist1974]

Wasn't Clifford the CEO at RIO when they had the big dispute with the CFMEU , from memory RIO got substantial damages against the Union and shut them out of their sites . Mmmm , tread carefully guys .