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Sailor Vee
22nd Jul 2011, 15:07
This (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14252515) does not look like an accident, too close to Government buildings for that!

Juud
22nd Jul 2011, 15:19
Authorities been warning population for years about rising threat level; now it has come to pass.

Proportionally heavy military involvement in both Afghanistan and Libya.
Re-publishing of the Mohammed cartoons by a fundamental bible-belt newspaper, the never ending saga of the noxious Mullah Krekar (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/03/AR2006120301088.html).....

Sods couldn´t have picked a better time though. Height of the main holiday period, on a Friday afternoon. (Friday arvos being notorious anyway for most Norskies bøggering orf early)

As terrorism goes, this wasn´t the smartest plot. :confused:

con-pilot
22nd Jul 2011, 16:04
It has now been confirmed that the explosions were bombs. So far the death toll looks very low, I pray it stays that way.

I'll stop now before I get into trouble.

beaufort1
22nd Jul 2011, 16:10
Live feed in the link below, two dead and fifteen injured.


BBC News - Oslo bomb - latest updates (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14254705)

Police are asking people to leave central Oslo.

sitigeltfel
22nd Jul 2011, 16:45
There are now reports of a gun attack at a youth gathering, with many dead.

Oslo explosion: live coverage - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/8655175/Oslo-explosion-live-coverage.html)

con-pilot
22nd Jul 2011, 16:48
Now hearing about an attack at a children's summer camp in Norway, four dead. Reportedly the gunman was dressed in a police uniform.

The camp is (again) reportedly on an island.

What have you heard in Europe?



Sorry sitig, didn't see your post.

DX Wombat
22nd Jul 2011, 17:09
Just heard the same on the BBC News, C-P. A very sad day for Norway.

11Fan
22nd Jul 2011, 17:19
Reports that there has been an arrest at the children's summer camp. Didn't say if it was the gunman or not.

G-CPTN
22nd Jul 2011, 17:42
Just heard an interview with a chief of Police in Norway about the shooting on the island of Utoeya.

It ended with the confirmation that a suspect had been arrested.

Asked whether the suspect was Norwegian he replied that he didn't know, and when pressed whether there was a description, he countered, in a wonderful Pythonesque manner "no, other than he was dressed as a Policeman" . . .

Ozzy
22nd Jul 2011, 17:50
Telegraph reporting the religion of peace:rolleyes: supporters have claimed responsibility:

Will McCants now says that Ansar al-Jihad al-Alami (Helpers of Global Jihad) seem to make a claim of responsibility. They claim it is in response to the occupation of Afghanistan and insults to the Prophet Mohammed. It has come via Shmukh, an elite jihadi forum


Ozzy

er340790
22nd Jul 2011, 18:01
Unless it's pay-back for all those Viking raids.


Unbelievable.

Keep calm and carry on, Norway! :ok:

G-CPTN
22nd Jul 2011, 18:12
Today is a public holiday in Norway, so the political offices were relatively unoccupied.

As Juud has said, even a normal Friday afternoon in summer would see folk finishing early and heading for their weekend retreats, so the timing wouldn't have been expected to garner as many casualties as a normal working day.

The IRA had a similar technique.

(I'm not suggesting that this was an IRA attack.)

Daysleeper
22nd Jul 2011, 19:48
As Juud has said, even a normal Friday afternoon in summer would see folk finishing early and heading for their weekend retreats, so the timing wouldn't have been expected to garner as many casualties as a normal working day.



Looking like the bomb was just a distraction tactic for the main attack.:uhoh:

G-CPTN
22nd Jul 2011, 19:51
BBC reporting 10 fatalities among those shot on Utoeya.

DX Wombat
22nd Jul 2011, 19:51
News report (http://web.orange.co.uk/article/news/survivor_tells_how_she_escaped_island_attacker) about the attack on the island.

G-CPTN
22nd Jul 2011, 21:51
The suspect gunman has been described as 'ethnic Norwegian' .
What does this mean?

con-pilot
22nd Jul 2011, 22:07
The suspect gunman has been described as 'ethnic Norwegian'

I've not heard or seen this anywhere but here on Pprune, are there any links to the source of this rumor?

Not saying this is not true, I've just not heard about this first person.

galaxy flyer
22nd Jul 2011, 22:11
Sad to see "Islam for Peace" groups are silent, as always.

GF

birrddog
22nd Jul 2011, 22:14
From the Belfast Telegraph (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/gunman-opens-fire-at-norway-labour-partys-youth-camp-on-utoya-island-near-oslo-16026724.html)...

The gunman appeared “tall, blond and [of] Nordic looks” according to reports.

A reporter from Norwegian TV 2 news channel, Lasse Evensen, said he has spoken to several witnesses at the site.

"They told me that there was a man with light hair and light skin, 190 centimeters tall and well-trained, who pulled out an automatic weapon and opened fire," said Evensen.



Read more: Norwegian gunman kills 'as many as 30' at youth camp on Utoya island near Oslo - World news, News - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/gunman-opens-fire-at-norway-labour-partys-youth-camp-on-utoya-island-near-oslo-16026724.html#ixzz1SsJJP74B)

con-pilot
22nd Jul 2011, 22:22
Thanks birrd, it takes longer for things to make their way all the way out here to Oklahoma, from both coasts.

NBC Nightly News is about to start, I'll see what they have to say. We no longer receive BBC America News here. Which is a great annoyance to me.

If the shooting and bombing are not connected, it is a coincidence that defies logic.

BombayDuck
22nd Jul 2011, 22:40
galaxy flyer, maybe they're waiting for, you know, actual information?

Your post says a lot more about you than them, for sure. :rolleyes:

Juud
22nd Jul 2011, 22:40
It´s apparently true Con. News here says 32 year old Norwegian male.
Who was seen at the site of the blast in Oslo before getting himself to Utøya island where the Labour Party Youth Conference was being held.

Our kids' Facebøøk & Tw_i_tter contacts are talking about an extreme right-wing neo-Nazi who shot his GF 10 years ago; no idea how true.

Ozzy
22nd Jul 2011, 23:14
Could he be a "Richard Reid" type, Norwegian born Muslim convert?

Ozzy

con-pilot
22nd Jul 2011, 23:20
Juud, I just heard on NBC Nightly News, from a Norwegian TV Network reporter*, that the police have found unexploded IEDs on the island. Have you, or anybody else, heard the same report?



* The reporter looks Middle Eastern and had an Muslim/Islamic sounding name. He looked as if he was trying very hard not to cry.

galaxy flyer
22nd Jul 2011, 23:41
Excuse me, Bombay Duck, why I did jump to conclusions. I could have jumped to the conclusion that Norwegian Lutherans might have committed these atrocious acts to protest for greater religious freedom or that Idahoan survivalists, in the name of McVeigh, traveled to Norway to protest America, or, perhaps, local Norwegian Earth Firsters are using terrorism to protest StatOil. Silly me.

The sad fact is that, except for McVeigh, all the major terrorist attacks, in the 18+ years, have been claimed by, or proven to be attributed to, various Muslim groups. Various reports have already made this connection today.

The other sad fact is that fatwas against writers, cartoonists, even whole nations have been declared; not one has been declared against those who target unarmed, defenseless civilians going about normal life. Or, even a fatwa to declare defenseless Muslims in poor, underdeveloped states as "protected" from terrorist attack.

It is senseless and nihilistic.

GF

Juud
23rd Jul 2011, 02:47
From the VG newspaper, its building also blown out. (http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/artikkel.php?artid=10080610)

32 year old white male, right-wing conservative, calls himself nationalistic.

Critical of Islam and multiculturalism. Member of Oslo pistol club & freemasons. Legally registered 3 weapons.

80 kids, attending the Labour Party´s summer camp, gunned down like vermin.

Load Toad
23rd Jul 2011, 03:25
So after people jumped to conclusions...

A white, right wing, gun owning nutter has slaughtered at least 87 innocent people mostly young people.

And what point was he trying to make & to who?

parabellum
23rd Jul 2011, 03:47
In an interview just broadcast on TV, with one of the youngsters from the island, she said, "Shooting was coming from all directions", so was there more than one gunman? I can imagine it must have seemed like that.

galaxy flyer
23rd Jul 2011, 03:53
While I will stand by my opinions, Bombay Duck, you have my apologies on jumping to conclusions. This is a sincerely shocking outcome, that one man could create such death and destruction in peaceful Norway.

The world awaits the details, but 80 dead makes this a tragedy beyond easy comprehension.

GF

Cacophonix
23rd Jul 2011, 06:06
Whatever group of murdering lunatics instigated this massacre, it is a dark and painful day for Norway. One can only wish Norway our sympathy and give support in the face of this despicable crime. We can also wish the Norwegians the courage to continue as the civilised people they are and not allow the extremists (or even a lone madman) to sway them from their course.

Norway attacks suggest political motive | World news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/23/norway-attacks-oslo-bombing-youth-camp)

MountainBear
23rd Jul 2011, 06:28
The suspect gunman has been described as 'ethnic Norwegian' .
What does this mean? Like many other places in the world Norway has a wide variety of ethnic populations, including an indigenous population commonly called "Laplanders" but who prefer to be called Saami (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people). So by describing the gunman as an 'ethnic Norwegian' they are saying he is not a Russian, Saami, or one of the other ethnic subpopulations in Norway.

sitigeltfel
23rd Jul 2011, 07:26
Emerging news says that he had recently set up a farming company which would have given him the cover to buy large quantities of the nitrogen based fertiliser he probably used to make the bomb.

ORAC
23rd Jul 2011, 08:35
Berserker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berserker)

Mach Turtle
23rd Jul 2011, 09:04
Isn't this almost straight out of one of the newer Star Wars films?

Lon More
23rd Jul 2011, 09:33
ORAC I wouldn't dignify him by calling him anything but a murderous lunatic.
May he rot in the deepest pits of hell

BombayDuck
23rd Jul 2011, 09:53
Excuse me, Bombay Duck, why I did jump to conclusions. I could have jumped to the conclusion that Norwegian Lutherans might have committed these atrocious acts to protest for greater religious freedom or that Idahoan survivalists, in the name of McVeigh, traveled to Norway to protest America, or, perhaps, local Norwegian Earth Firsters are using terrorism to protest StatOil. Silly me.

The sad fact is that, except for McVeigh, all the major terrorist attacks, in the 18+ years, have been claimed by, or proven to be attributed to, various Muslim groups. Various reports have already made this connection today.

The other sad fact is that fatwas against writers, cartoonists, even whole nations have been declared; not one has been declared against those who target unarmed, defenseless civilians going about normal life. Or, even a fatwa to declare defenseless Muslims in poor, underdeveloped states as "protected" from terrorist attack.

It is senseless and nihilistic.


gf, you don't get it. I *know* you jumped to conclusions. So did I. If a person's thoughts right after an atrocity don't stray towards "I bet XYZ was responsible", that person is probably superhuman. I completely understand that, and I don't deny such thoughts go through my head too.

But the difference between a lesser person and a.... civilised? educated? not sure what the word is, here, but the difference is that after the first reaction goes through your head, you stop and think and say "Hang on, maybe that's not what happened, let's wait for some more info." You don't assume that your first reaction was right, and just because other people have not come to the same conclusion ("Sad to see "Islam for Peace" groups are silent, as always.") you can comment about them, "pity" them and let loose your comment on the internet.

You don't have to tell me about terrorism in the name of Islam. I'm from a city that has seen more attacks than your country has in the last decade. We've been crying ourselves hoarse about it for a decade before 9/11 and we've been ignored by the west. You don't have to tell me what does through my mind each time bad news comes over from home.

I don't go around PPRuNe wondering why no one has bombed Pakistan just yet, even though I've seen enough people commenting the same on the internet about it and many friends rant their frustrations out to me in private.

I know you've apologised, gf, and perhaps this entire rant was not needed by you, but whether in situations like this one or Gabby Giffords' shooting when people assumed it was a Tea Partier, I detest people going on the internet and shooting off their first thoughts before the bodies have gone cold.

Load Toad
23rd Jul 2011, 10:05
Jumping to conclusions - just helps to fuel more hate:How a clueless "terrorism expert" set media suspicion on Muslims after Oslo horror | The Electronic Intifada (http://electronicintifada.net/blog/benjamin-doherty/how-clueless-terrorism-expert-set-media-suspicion-muslims-after-oslo-horror)

The Sun: yfrog Photo : http://yfrog.com/klmz8mtj Shared by TheMichaelMoran (http://yfrog.com/klmz8mtj)

Takan Inchovit
23rd Jul 2011, 10:27
Why is it that some individuals get 'very clever' just before they become 'extremely stupid'?

This is not a conclusion, more like an observation.

tony draper
23rd Jul 2011, 10:53
Blame the 24 hour news channels, speculation replaced information a long time ago,
:cool:

DX Wombat
23rd Jul 2011, 13:50
Now there is a new (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/bomb-alert-oslo-deadly-attacks-132252038.html) bomb scare to contend with.

Load Toad
23rd Jul 2011, 13:51
Would have been nice to have a right wing white christian condemning this heinous crime.

Two's in
23rd Jul 2011, 14:21
Jumping to conclusions - just helps to fuel more hate:How a clueless "terrorism expert" set media suspicion on Muslims after Oslo horror | The Electronic Intifada

Load Toad - People at both ends of the political spectrum can exploit a tragedy such as this to further their agenda. The right wing can use the tried and tested formula of "Keep 'em scared, keep 'em voting" to invoke ever more encroachments on civil liberties, and it is mannah from heaven (irony intended) for the left wing when they can point to the "Gun crazies and Tea Party extremists". And yes, both of those pitches are already being used.

The real crime of course, is that neither the media nor the politicians really care a flying fcuk for the families of those slain in this outrage, as long as they can increase circulation or win more votes.

It does for a brief moment however, place the preceding media infatuation with Ryan Giggs' super injunction, Jordan's chest, or Murdochs's unfamiliarity with the truth into some kind of perspective.

Load Toad
23rd Jul 2011, 14:37
I do like this:

Dr_Ulrichsen Kristian Ulrichsen....

Oslo Mayor Stang asked whether Oslo needs greater security

- "I don't think security can solve problems. We need to teach greater respect"

cavortingcheetah
23rd Jul 2011, 14:50
I heard the story today that the wearing of blue jackets with blue trouser, as in a blazer and slacks, is to be banned lest one be confused with a police officer in uniform. Apparently only toffs wear blazers with slacks and so the banning of such a clothing combination will only impact upon a very small minority in society who have too much money anyway because they're all tax dodgers and sleep with other mens' wives.

Big Tudor
23rd Jul 2011, 15:56
And once again, human civilisation takes a step backwards. I don't particularly agree with everything Malcolm X said or stood for, but I do think the "A man who stands for nothing will fall for anything." quote was rather apt. Opinions are one thing; hatred, however, has no place in our lives, regardless of race, creed, religion or colour. Norway is a wonderful country populated by some of the most marvelous people I have ever met. I sincerely hope that this horrendous episode does nothing to diminish that, although I fear there may be no option.

My heart goes out to the victims and the families & friends of those killed and injured in this attack.

CATIII-NDB
23rd Jul 2011, 15:59
Sorry for the delay in posting: I too watched the events unfold, on the BBC rolling news yesterday, from about 5.20 local UK.

I was astonished by the poor coverage - A repeating loop of about 4 minutes length, showing overage of victims; probably without their consent - Also non of the images were given context. I think part seemed to relate to an unconnected incident (The surburban House with an Ambulance outside ?).

Yes it was a complex situation and inevitably contradictionary details would be filtering through, but to just broadcast a short timed loop of "footage" without context was in my view extreamly poor.

And to cap it all, there was a contribution from whom; I think from memory, was the BBC's diplomatic correspondent trying to link the bombing to Islamic terrorists; without the slightest trace of supporting evidence at that stage.Making a bad situation potentially more dangerous.

These terrible events have sadly illustrated the "Instiutional racism" of the BBC in this context. Rather than sound off in PPrUne, I actually (for what its worth) sent an EM under my real name and address through the "Feedback" site complaining about the coverage of victims without their informed consent and the wild surmising about the purpertrator(s).

If I get an acknowledgement, it will be a miracle - But to everyone, be very circumspect of the mass media coverage of atrocities like this. We can no longer trust broadcast media, to give an accurate account of the known situation in an emergency.

CAT III

con-pilot
23rd Jul 2011, 16:03
And to cap it all, there was a contribution from whom; I think from memory, was the BBC's diplomativc correspondent trying to link the bombing to Islamic terrorists; without the slightest trace of supporting evidence at that stage.Making a bad situation potentially more dangerous.



Well in defense of the BBC, and I hate defending any news media, a Muslim terrorist group did claim responsibility for the attack, shortly after the attack.

tony draper
23rd Jul 2011, 16:09
Yer,its amazingl how anybody could jump to the conclusion or even think that bombs going off in town centers and innocent people being shot dead in the streets was the work of Islamic militants is indeed unfathomable.
For the Cousins reading this, the above is what we limeys call Irony.

con-pilot
23rd Jul 2011, 16:12
For the Cousins reading this, the above is what we limeys call Irony.

I knew exactly what you meant Mr. D.

Well said.

CATIII-NDB
23rd Jul 2011, 16:15
Thank you - I was not aware of that.- Fair enough.

CAT III

con-pilot
23rd Jul 2011, 16:18
Thank you - I was not aware of that.- Fair enough.


You're more than welcome. I believe the name of the group that claimed responsibility is on the first or second page of this thread in a link.

CATIII-NDB
23rd Jul 2011, 16:29
Takingh a deco - To make matters worse, this kind of uncorroborated "Claim" can actually make matters worse by complicating enquiries - An old trick to deflect invesigations - The Fools, piggybacking on a totally unconnected event.


CAT III

Parapunter
23rd Jul 2011, 16:30
I'm still trying to work out from where the Islamic race come from.

con-pilot
23rd Jul 2011, 16:32
Probably the same place the Jewish race came from. :rolleyes:

CATIII-NDB
23rd Jul 2011, 16:59
The reflex reaction by some sources sadly, indicates an attitude that I remember from the seventies. Every Burglar, Bicycle Thief, Bank Robber & Lead piping stealer had an Irish accent.- Remember the IRA Bombings in the UK.- Multiple claims of attriubution

The media trip wire response is alive and well unfortunately.

So much for the "Validate,Validate & Validate again" rules of journalism.

Poor reportage only acts as a perverse insentive to the Terrorists, It plays to their agenda - Sadly.

CAT III

Capot
23rd Jul 2011, 17:04
RELIGIOUS EXTREMIST SLAUGHTERS INNOCENTS!

What a shame for all those who rushed into print denouncing Muslims for the Norway attacks (see today's UK Times for superb examples of crass speculation about which Islamist group committed the crime), that the perpetrator turns out to be yet another Christian nutter with an agenda of hate.

He belongs to a global religious extremist organisation that seeks to dominate the world, led by an aging ex-Nazi in a dish-dasha and skull cap holed up in an enclave in Rome. I gather the USN SEALS are planning to lift him for a long bath in the Med. any day now..

All those who are - weakly - defending their initial rants by saying "Well, it's always the Muslims, innit, why should this one have been different", might like to reflect on the history of non-Islamist terrorism in the last few decades.

The founding fathers of modern terrorism are the Jews, of course. Then we have the 20 years of bombing, cruelty, rape and murder in N Ireland and UK, exarcerbated by overt support and funds for the Catholic side from the good ole USA. One-off incidents such as the Oklahoma City bomb are almost always committed by right-wing, white religious extremists wearing a cross.

Islamist terrorists may be out in front on the body count to date, but only by a whisker.

So let's flog and deport all Christians, along with the Muslims, natch, to make the world a safer place. They could all go to Gitmo to await trial in secret by a US Army Corporal.. And while we're at it, let's do the same to the b****y cyclists.

tony draper
23rd Jul 2011, 17:04
Mr C television news and the press have very little to do with Journalism.

Tankertrashnav
23rd Jul 2011, 17:17
Maybe a little unfair and a little early to criticise, but having listened to a lengthy item from a young woman (youth leader) who led a group of teenagers to the security of a cabin where they were able to barricade themselves in and resist an attempt by the gunman to break in, I was amazed how long the attack went on before help arrived. Assuming the earlier bomb had got the police on alert, it's not impressive that it was well over an hour before police arrived on the island, apparently by boat, not helicopter.

As I said, maybe a bit early to criticise, but the Norwegian police dont appear to have come out of this one too well.

Parapunter
23rd Jul 2011, 17:28
Maybe Catt III, but you don't help your argument by labelling a religion a race. One form of ignorance is much like another in my experience.

Rollingthunder
23rd Jul 2011, 17:57
Pity he didn't get shot resisting arrest, but maybe under severe questioning, he may reveal other perps. Severe, Norway, severe.

PanPanYourself
23rd Jul 2011, 18:35
Please read this: Øystein Runde (http://www.oysteinrunde.no/)

The tragedy on Utøya - an attempt to understand

In english
Posted by Øystein Sat, July 23, 2011 09:26:59

Anders Behring Breivik is the man who personally, slowly, cold-bloodedly executed eighty teenagers at Utøya, Norway. I have spent the whole night thinking and reading his writings and trying to understand what drove him. I am in two minds about sharing his writings, because ideas are powerful, no matter where they come from and how tainted they - in the outset of things - seem. I think he was smart enough to know this.

I think he wanted to save the world from muslims.

I think his mind was set on saving the world. Saving the "pure", clean ... norwegianness. For some reason, he was thinking these thoughts first, and then he committed the most disgusting, tear-inducing, awful crime I am capable of imagining. Serial killers act out of a sexual-like sick drive. Dictators kill out of paranoia. Anyone can kill if group pressure becomes a factor, like Zimbardo proved. But this? What is this? What IS this?

He is born in 1979, like me, and he is tall and rather norwegian-looking, like me. His facebook page lists George Orwells "1984" and Kafkas "The Trial" as favorite books. Two of my favorite books. I have family members called Breivik.

Anders B has posted a great deal of texts on the internet, in particular on a norwegian right wing islam-critical christian blog. For me, christianity has a lot of humanistic, wonderful tones. "What would Jesus do" is a beautiful, simple credo that every christian in the world should have tattoed on their bodies. What is Anders Behring Breiviks christianity?

There they are, his words. His mind. He brags that he is rich, that he has had successful businesses that allowed him to live without working, to plan for his great book on how muslims will take over the western world. His values: Protestant christianity. Culture-conservativeness. He is a freemason, whatever one can make out of that. He was, some years ago, a member of the right-wing political party Frp - he claims they got a huge amount of success when he worked for them, because of his great understanding of how to market ideas.

Even more reason for me not to write in this blog. He is marketing. Right now. As I write this, with shaking fingers. Even more. And yet - everyone will write about it. Hopefully this can make him understandable. Do not hate him. Do not fear him. Know him, and think: Are these your thoughts? Do you understand? Would you applaud these thoughts before you knew they drove a man to kill children?

To me, these actions stand as the purest evil thinkable. Executing eighty youths, gathered like fish in a barrel, on an island. They were unarmed, they were young, they were an ocean of human potential. A political gathering. What could have been our future prime minister may have died today. She may be dying now.

I do not know what to think anymore. But: He wanted to save the world from the muslim threat. He was afraid. Fear, fear, sickening fear permeates his writing. It is clever. He is well-read. It has all the good, rational ways of explaining a point of view. He is afraid. Nothing in his writing says it clearly. His fellow right-winger bloggers are as shocked as I am. But I never shared any of his horrible fears. I never shared any of his views. I always felt an unexplainable disgust at the flawless reasoning of my Frp friends. And now, his line of thinking led him to this. He chose to sacrifice a few human lives in Norway to save the world from something he sees as a huge, religiously fanatic threat. And when he started doing it, he was so convinced that the screaming, the pain of human beings, could not make him budge in his decision.

Do you understand his thoughts? Would you feel comfortable inside this man's mindscape? Why? What is it that it gives you? I do not want to judge. I have always loved my Frp friends. I will not delete them from facebook, even when they used the first bomb to say "Get out of my ******* country, you ******* *****" or "time to check out the "against islamization of Norway" website". I believe that we all need friends with different worldviews.

And I have always been a bit embarrassed by the fact that I am by nature ridiculously politically correct. I do believe in non-violence. I do believe that NOT sending the famous Mullah Krekar out of Norway, because he could be executed in his homeland, is a strong signal to send to the world. Both to the east and the west. "Okay, you guys may still want to execute prisoners, but then we'll let him walk freely around in Oslo, because WE happen to believe in something called the sanctity of ALL human life, even the life of this guy who is an obvious terrorist fundamentalist." I am endlessly proud of my tiny country, who has the guts to appear "soft" and "kind" even when the rest of the world pressures us to be "hard".

And I am proud of the fact that we arrested this murderer alive. How would that have played out in USA? Even in this situation, norwegian police was able to catch him alive. It is horrible to have to talk about this. If a sniper bullet could have saved a single life more, of course that would have been immensely much better. But somehow, he was stopped without being killed, and if that happened without risking any more childen's lives, yes, that is a good thing.

My bodily reaction was a sudden wish to have him torn apart by horses. But that is my feelings. Fear. Rage. Disgust. This rage for vengeance is not what makes us human. It is the victory of abstract thought, of faith, that makes us human. The faith that any human can be something different tomorrow than they are today. To him, maybe killing children gave him a physical reaction. For his own sake, I hope he is a complete psychopath, if such a thing exists. If he really did this just to bring attention to his thoughts, and he will now have to face it like a human being ...

If he really cannot feel this, he is colder than anything I have ever known in any work of fiction. Our imaginations have been outreached. But if he WAS able to feel this, and yet persisted, systematicaly killing eighty young people for the sake of drawing attention to his cause, feeling their pain in his mirror neurons, but persisting to tell the world that muslims, muslims are scary ... if this is possible. If faith in one's own justification and perfection can be so over-riding, so much stronger than the sight of another human in pain, even "cold" cannot describe what he is.

This man will be locked up. After 21 years, he will be examined by psychiatrists. They will decide wether he is well enough to get out. But: I can assure all you justice-hungry people out there, it will be decided that Anders Behring is highly intelligent, calculating, and at best, a psychopath. And that he cannot be let out. This is how our "gentleness" works. We give our prisoners hope forever, while locking them away forever. Because we say that maybe ... maybe. If you become a better person. If you don't fight the guards. If you behave nicely. And we mean it.

And it saves us money and makes us look good, and the prisoners are locked away forever, but without going mad and becoming a liability.

In Frank Millers "The Dark Knight", the Joker gets out by pretending he is all fine, and starts a killing spree. So is this "norwegian" way wrong? No. It is this naive trust in people, this faith, that makes Norway a country that even islamic fundamentalists have kept their hands away from so far. I believe that it is impossible to say that a country is "the great satan" if it executes no-one, if it tortures no-one, if its politicians silently, and secularly, say "what would Jesus do?" before they make their decisions. We are all a bunch of atheists up here. But we have faith in democracy. And in humanity. On a day like this, nothing is more impressive, more steadfast, more Jesus-like, than maintaining one's faith in Humanity. And yes, this is what a huge amount of my 913 facebookfriends did. Okay, they're mostly cultural elite people, they direct theater and make movies and write books, and maybe not so many from the right wing, but it really, really felt good to see their maturity. I like my friends. I even like myself today, as my politcal views were clearer to me than in a long time, and as every absurd prejudice I had about freemason-conservative-right-wing-monsters from the rich, blonde upper class became grotesquely true, as if life had turned into a Stieg Larsson novel.

Basically: Coupled with healthy realism and a solid police force the faith in humanity is a valuable thing in itself. It says: Our justice system believes blindly in justice. We will not kill, because killing is wrong.

I know I sound awfully politically correct, as i am relentlessly soft, multi-cultural and left-wing.

But after today, as the worst human being in Europe is hard, mono-cultural and right-wing, it will be very, very, very hard to tease anyone for being too "politically correct".

V2-OMG!
23rd Jul 2011, 18:44
The slaughter of those young people - defies words.

The stab of this is deep and troubling. Condolences to the people of Norway.

G-ZUZZ
23rd Jul 2011, 19:08
Would have been nice to have a right wing white christian condemning this heinous crime.

The Christians were busy condemning homosexuals (http://www.theurbangrind.net/?p=1480).

A joint Muslim-Christian statement condemning domestic violence was published by the Islamic Council of Norway and the Church of Norway.......

This cooperation will help Norway to become a joint Islamic and Christian nation one day. As Christianity dies a natural death, the religion of peace will fill the vacuum.

Cacophonix
23rd Jul 2011, 19:12
G-ZUZZ

One can no more cooperate with Jesus or Mohammed than with the devil. When will we humans beings realize that we need to drop these primitive crutches to move forward from the quasi ape?

Caco

tony draper
23rd Jul 2011, 19:35
Yup, replace one lunacy with another Mr Zuzz,good idea.

CATIII-NDB
23rd Jul 2011, 19:44
Para - I was using the example of "Group labeling": It was men't to be dependent on race as such - Perhaps I should have clarified that element, but did/do the media apply that distinction today ? - Of course [Company] internal guidelines and appropriate proceedures would govern the general tone of comments made - to cover their own backs.

Its the difficult issue of implicit guilt by past association - That I was attempting to illustrate; in the post - not the conflation of race and creed.

CAT III

V2-OMG!
23rd Jul 2011, 20:51
Regardless of the motivation or viewpoint of the perpetrator, intentional and wanton taking of innocent human life is heinous, unacceptable, and unjustified.

Sadness shared and sympathy offered to Norwegians in the wake of this tragic event.

Too soon to discuss the related politics and agendas. Let's first have some time for grief and healing.

BandAide, you have again said what should be said.

For every evil act, there is a proper dignity and proportion that merits observation and practice.

mickjoebill
23rd Jul 2011, 23:46
Maybe a little unfair and a little early to criticise, but having listened to a lengthy item from a young woman (youth leader) who led a group of teenagers to the security of a cabin where they were able to barricade themselves in and resist an attempt by the gunman to break in, I was amazed how long the attack went on before help arrived. Assuming the earlier bomb had got the police on alert, it's not impressive that it was well over an hour before police arrived on the island, apparently by boat, not helicopter.

As I said, maybe a bit early to criticise, but the Norwegian police dont appear to have come out of this one too well.

On the face of it, the bomb blast formed a diversion that swamped police and telecommunications. A police spokesman said the swat team had trouble locating a boat.



Mickjoebill

sitigeltfel
24th Jul 2011, 07:27
become a joint Islamic and Christian nation one day.

Islam doesn't do "joint".

G-ZUZZ
24th Jul 2011, 08:04
It's a start. I'm sure it'll be a short-term arrangement.

Juud
24th Jul 2011, 09:16
The extent to which PPRuNers view their own and others' humanity as to be more or less important than a political agenda, is always clearly demonstrated on threads discussing these apparently politically motivated slaughters.

According to the blogosphere, the media and word of mouth (small country) the perpetrator was an active debater on right wing, conservative internet fora.
A short time before the bomb went off in Oslo, he published a 1500 page manifesto. Giving historical perspective and detailed instructions on the crusade against Islam taking over Europe.
Detailed also exactly how to use the media and the judicial system to get maximum exposure for his ideas.

He has picked a lawyer. The same one who defended the man who committed the first racially motivated murder in Norway in 2002. Not an enviable job; must take great personal courage.

The bombing, horrible as it is, appears something "we" have now seen so often that we have become immune to it, unless directly involved.
The deliberate hunting of young people on land and in water, the pretending to be a policeman coming to take them to safety to and then shoot them... the incredible cruelty of that does not sink in.

Even if I have little time to spend in front of the TV at the moment, what jumps out from every interview, from the King and the PM, police people, political figures, the clergy, mayors, Red Cross folks, doctors, the youngsters who survived, their families; is the emphasis on caring.
Everybody is about caring. Now and long term.
Looking after each other, being there for each other, space to talk, to cry, to scream.

I have yet to see any rage expressed.
It is all about keeping people in one piece, surviving as a person and as a country, not letting this change Norwegian society.
Quite remarkable.

PanPanYourself
24th Jul 2011, 09:51
One nutcase will not alter my right of centre views.
A lot of Muslims would say the same thing about their religious views.

Islam doesn't do "joint".
There you go again. What do you mean by "Islam"? Moderate Islam does "joint" very well thank you very much. Political, radical Islam doesn't do joint, same as Christian fundamentalism. That should be clear as day to any thinking person by now.

I'm going to dig up my old pprune posts that predicted something like this happening a long time ago.

Lon More
24th Jul 2011, 09:59
Islam doesn't do "joint".
I'm afraid the VaticHun is the same.

Not a great deal mentioned here in NL. Wilders and others are now keeping their heads well below the parapet.

edited for spelling

SMT Member
24th Jul 2011, 10:15
Not a great deal mentioned here in NL. Wilders and others are now keeoing their heads well below the parapet,

Same deal in my neck of the woods; the anti-immigration, "cultural conservative", party is keeping itself very much to itself. Must have been quite a retreat following initial reports, which are bound to have had them assembling soapboxes en masse.

Remarkable, isn't it, how their rage against terror has been proved to be conditioned on the perpetrator.

Sir George Cayley
24th Jul 2011, 10:17
I've been watching a programme on BBC TV called the Life of Muhammad

reposted link further on

And very interesting it has been too. Suddenly its relevance and the truth in Islam's history (if I can put it that simplistic way)is made starkly clear by the terrible events in Norway.

So Islam does do joint, does do tolerance and does do peace.

My eyes have been opened to the way extremists have hijacked something good and turned it for their own ends.

Sir George Cayley

Ancient Mariner
24th Jul 2011, 10:22
At the moment few of us here cares about who and why. We care about the survivors, the wounded and friends and relatives of those killed. It is more than enough. We will later pick up the pieces and move on.
Per

Load Toad
24th Jul 2011, 10:28
What part of 'Thou Shalt Not Kill.' don't these religious f'tards not understand?

I can't see any caveats; no buts, however's, unless-es...just Thou Shalt Not Kill. Seems simple enough.

hellsbrink
24th Jul 2011, 10:43
That's a very naïve look on Christianity, LT. After all, killing others has been a part of the Bible from Exodus onwards.

Deuteronomy and Leviticus are particularly clear on killing those who follow other religions.....

SMT Member
24th Jul 2011, 10:57
Not to mention the bit about lobbing your new wife if it turns out she's already been deflowered.

Thou shalt not kill has more loop holes than the tax law.

El Grifo
24th Jul 2011, 11:48
Link does not work for me. I would be interested to watch this programme if a working link could be posted.

As Christianity dies a natural death, the religion of peace will fill the vacuum.

That had me choking on my toast !

probes
24th Jul 2011, 11:53
the evil of this action is so self evident

maybe it's about the means. There have been people weird or mad or both through the centuries, but it has not been possible to cause such damage - loss of lives and the horror being spread all over the world instantly - by just a single person. Or a few, or several. Without any big groups behind, without any war or revolution being declared or started.

El Grifo
24th Jul 2011, 11:59
What convoluted twist of logic could possibly convince a born and bred citizen of Norway, that the act of slaughtering dozens of innocent kids could somehow stop the spread of the "Marxist Islamic" influence within his country.

Buggered if I can understand :ugh:

PanPanYourself
24th Jul 2011, 13:36
You cannot really mean that.
No you're right, I don't. That was a bit over the top, so I apologize.

However, weren't similar statements made about moderate Muslims?

DX Wombat
24th Jul 2011, 13:59
Juud, Per, PPY, and all Norwegians, a few years ago I took my caravan over to Norway. I was on my own but never once did I feel threatened or anything but safe. I was welcomed with nothing but friendliness, tolerance of my lack of knowledge of the language, and all the help I needed. I have not been put off visiting Scotland because of what happened at Dunblane, Ireland because of the IRA and UDF and I will not be put off visiting Norway again because of the actions of one extremely disturbed person. I have no idea when I will get there, but get there I will. You have a beautiful, friendly country and the wounds will heal eventually. In the meantime know that many, many people over here are shocked and saddened by events and feel for you.
For once the BBC got its priorities right with the news and placed Norway first.

stuckgear
24th Jul 2011, 15:23
Juud, Per, PPY, and all Norwegians, a few years ago I took my caravan over to Norway. I was on my own but never once did I feel threatened or anything but safe. I was welcomed with nothing but friendliness


ah DX but you do have to wonder about the sanity of a nationality that welcomes caravaners.



:}

(sorry sprite, bailey and buccaneer owners.. couldn't resist that)

Henry09
24th Jul 2011, 16:01
Bit of a serious thread for banter guys.

stuckgear
24th Jul 2011, 16:18
no offence intended, just wanting to give a bit of breather..

on that note however, is it just me or is are some of the media graphics a bit 'too' graphic.

We are all aware that a number of people have lost their lives, for which each life lost a tagedy for the family and friends of each victim, but does the press need to show the dead where they lay, being carried off in body bags, for me it just seems a bit... salacious or disrespectful?

I dont even know if those are the right words to use.. I've just turned the news off, which is unusual for me.. its just too graphic and I dont want to become that de-sensitised to tragedy.

Anyone else or I am just being introvertly cynical ?

corsair
24th Jul 2011, 16:18
What part of 'Thou Shalt Not Kill.' don't these religious f'tards not understand?

I can't see any caveats; no buts, however's, unless-es...just Thou Shalt Not Kill. Seems simple enough. Ah but you have fallen into the classic trap, you see the commandment is not 'Thou shalt not kill'. The true translation is 'Thou shalt not murder. This of course allows any kind of killing up to genocide for any good Christian out there.

If you don't believe me just google 'Thou shalt not murder.' Be prepared to be sickened by the hypocrisy.

Sir George Cayley
24th Jul 2011, 16:50
I'm so crap at 'puters so apologies for the bad link. Here's another go

[URL]"www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b012mkg5/The_Life_of_Muhammad_The_Seeker/"[URL]

Even more now I think a reappraisal of the true face of Islam is needed. If it proves a unifying moment of understanding then maybe a small crumb of goodness might result.

Sir George Cayley

El Grifo
24th Jul 2011, 17:10
That'll do nicely Sir G.

I am always willing to learn.

Gracias
El G.

chuks
24th Jul 2011, 17:15
This crime was committed by a fellow who has no connection with Islam other than what seems to be an irrational fear and hatred of it.

I think we might better concentrate on how a liberal, Lutheran society can produce a mass murderer, get some answers to that question, rather than looking far afield to what Muslims get up to in an Islamic society. There are problems there, of course, but I don't think that has much to do with what has just happened in Oslo, Norway. The answers must come from looking at this murderer and the society that produced him. What happens in Saudi Arabia, for instance, can only have a very distant relationship to the crimes in Oslo, or else I am missing something, perhaps that old liberal bit of cant that runs, 'We are all guilty!'

No, here the person who killed all those folks is the guilty one and I hope the court proves that and puts that person away for life, preferably making big rocks into little ones or sewing mailbags or whatever counts as 'hard labor' in Norway.

I think I already see a horrible logic to the slaughter of young socialists, and I am afraid that the killer will be happy to explain that logic in court to the maximum extent allowed.

con-pilot
24th Jul 2011, 17:21
No, here the person who killed all those folks is the guilty one and I hope the court proves that and puts that person away for life, preferably making big rocks into little ones or sewing mailbags or whatever counts as 'hard labor' in Norway.



Only if he dies within 21 years after being sentenced. Maximum prison term for any crime in Norway is 21 years. So I guess he will be released when he is what, 52/53 years old?

No further comment.

LEGAL TENDER
24th Jul 2011, 17:33
Only if he dies within 21 years after being sentenced. Maximum prison term for any crime in Norway is 21 years. So I guess he will be released when he is what, 52/53 years old?

I think he's safer inside than outside...

DX Wombat
24th Jul 2011, 17:37
Only if he dies within 21 years after being sentenced. Maximum prison term for any crime in Norway is 21 years. So I guess he will be released when he is what, 52/53 years old?

No further comment. CP- I think you may have missed this in PPY's post:
This man will be locked up. After 21 years, he will be examined by psychiatrists. They will decide wether he is well enough to get out. But: I can assure all you justice-hungry people out there, it will be decided that Anders Behring is highly intelligent, calculating, and at best, a psychopath. And that he cannot be let out. This is how our "gentleness" works. We give our prisoners hope forever, while locking them away forever. Because we say that maybe ... maybe. If you become a better person. If you don't fight the guards. If you behave nicely. And we mean it.

And it saves us money and makes us look good, and the prisoners are locked away forever, but without going mad and becoming a liability.

Henry09
24th Jul 2011, 17:58
Basil, Stuckgear

No snags thanks anyway, I was just saying. A sort of gentle reminder.


I wait with great anticipation to hear from this evil man tomorrow, how he justifies taking the lives of so many children. In truth he should be locked away without being able to address society or speak to anyone, as he seems desperate to have created and want his moment of infamy. I imagine though if I was a parent of one of the murdered Children I would need an explanation, then I would be off to buy a 21 year calendar, at the end of which I would need to book myself in for 21.

G-CPTN
24th Jul 2011, 18:17
BBC have spoken with 'a woman from Holland' outside the memorial service at the cathedral.

I wonder?

Ancient Mariner
24th Jul 2011, 18:18
DX Wombat. Thank you.
Basil. Lutefisk, spekesild or gravet fisk. Take your pick.
Per

hellsbrink
24th Jul 2011, 18:47
BBC have spoken with 'a woman from Holland' outside the memorial service at the cathedral.

I wonder?

You wonder what?

If you're going where I think you're going, I would be more concerned about an English person being there since the perp claimed to be talking to the EDL.....

Henry09
24th Jul 2011, 18:54
What are you both wondering?

G-CPTN
24th Jul 2011, 18:55
Wrong assumption!

I simply wondered if it was one of our PPRuNers who lives in Norway.

hellsbrink
24th Jul 2011, 18:57
Ahhh, now I get it..

Sorry

con-pilot
24th Jul 2011, 19:06
CP- I think you may have missed this in PPY's post:


Thank you DX, but no, I did not miss his post.

That does not change the fact that this animal can be out, walking the streets, in 21 years. Ready and capable of repeating this heinous act. Citizens should not be forced to depend on 'maybe' when it comes to these type of despicable filth.

I prayed that in the remaining years of my life that I would never see another McVeigh. Sadly those prayers were not answered, this thing needs and deserves the same punishment as McVeigh so justifiably received.

He needs to be put down as one would a rabid dog.

LN-KGL
24th Jul 2011, 19:08
Yes, we Norwegians has fostered a monster.
And yes, we have to deal with our own way.
The question now is what inspired him to become a monster?
Was it the Norwegian society and our soft values?
Was it from the Masonic Lodge that he was a part of?
Was it the Progress Party Youth (FrPU) that inspired him?
Did he have other idols?
One things is for certain, parts of his "Manifest 2083" is a transcipt from the manifesto of Theodore John "Ted" Kaczynski (the Unabomber). His bombing of the government buildings in Oslo is almost a copycat of the Oklahoma City bombing that Timothy McVeigh did. And for the mass killing of "his worst" political opponents at Utøya youth camp, the Virginia Tech massacre could have been a souce of inspiration.

I'm sad, but not filled with sadness as relatives and friends of those that lost their lives.
I'm worried, but not as frightened as the youngsters that survied the ordeal at Utøya.
I'm hurt, but not with life-threatening injuries as some vitims have.
But I have a hope that Norway will get back to something more normal than these last days.

con-pilot
24th Jul 2011, 19:17
Yes, we Norwegians has fostered a monster


Please understand that this was not your fault nor the fault of Norway, in no way. In free societies people such as this person and McVeigh will create themselves. All we can do living in a free society is try to see the warning signs and head them off before they can commit these horrible acts.

If we cannot, and they succeed in their sick goals, we, as a free society, must assure that these people can never repeat their acts ever again.

One cannot have a truely free society, when one is forced to live in fear.

tony draper
24th Jul 2011, 19:33
This one is unique in that he appears to have had a definite reason no matter how twisted and insane for doing what he did, in his mind anyway,he did not just walk out with a pocket full of ammo clips and a weapon and shoot at random,it was planned and he even seems to have deliberately taken steps avoided being shot himself when the swat people arrived,he had a agenda.
Makes it even more horrifying than the usual lunatic on a random shooting spree.
:uhoh:

Tankertrashnav
24th Jul 2011, 19:43
Bit of a serious thread for banter guys.


Have to disagree. Banter is a welcome relief when terrible things happen. Ask anyone how they cope in operating theatres etc, the First War trenches, etc. Its just a safety valve.

As an ex-Freemason (moved away and never got around to joining another lodge) I have to concur with Basil's remarks. Freemasonry as it exists in the UK at least has nothing to do with extremist religious views, indeed it welcomes members from any religion, Christian and non-Christian alike

Airborne Aircrew
24th Jul 2011, 19:52
I have to concur with Basil's remarks. Freemasonry as it exists in the UK at least has nothing to do with extremist religious views, indeed it welcomes members from any religion, Christian and non-Christian alike

Yep... And Stonemasons are people who like to get their rocks off...:}

G-CPTN
24th Jul 2011, 20:16
Are firearms (and ammunition) freely available in Norway, or was his 'farm' the cover for his weapons? - though I believe one was a machine-gun.

Juud
24th Jul 2011, 21:43
G-CPTN; discussed at length in fairly recent gun related thread.
But the expand-in-the-body dum-dum bullets he used on the children are not legal.

Con; different country, different approach, different culture, different aim.
Norway doesn´t want to put down people like rabid dogs.

What this country does want, shines through clearly in the last part of PM Jens Stoltenberg´s speech in Oslo Dom Church today:

In the middle of all these tragic events, I am proud to live in a country that has stood firm at a critical time. I am deeply impressed by how much dignity and compassion I have seen. We are a small nation, but a proud people. We will never abandon our values. Our reply is: more democracy, more openness, and more humanity. But never naivity.

No one has said it better than the AUF girl who was interviewed by CNN: "If one man can show so much hate, think how much love we can show, standing together".

con-pilot
24th Jul 2011, 21:55
Con; different country, different approach, different culture, different aim.
Norway dozen´t want to put down people like rabid dogs.



I realize that, different strokes for different folks. I'm certainly not going to tell Norway how to conduct their internal affairs. As there are more than enough people telling the US how we should conduct ours.

But I don't have to worry about McVeigh ever coming back and doing it again. Norwegians will. So if they believe that they will change this monster by group hugging with him and singing Kumbaya, so be it.

I understand the philosophy of turning the other cheek and will the first time, but slap me again and you'll find yourself flat on your arse.

(Not 'you' as in you personally you Juud, I trust you understand that. ;))

LN-KGL
24th Jul 2011, 22:04
You need to get the permission from the local chief of police to aquire a wapon, and it's usually given to registered hunters or people using it for organized sports activities. Our monster was a member of the Oslo Pistol Club.

This evening some additional news came out about the killer. He was pumped up with anabolic steroids.

Tankertrashnav
24th Jul 2011, 22:12
Yep... And Stonemasons are people who like to get their rocks off...http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

Sorry:confused: Your point is?

11Fan
24th Jul 2011, 22:17
TTN, suspect it was a play on words. Stone, rocks..... like that.

G-CPTN
24th Jul 2011, 23:27
BBC interview with a female who was in the same class in highschool as the suspect.
She said he was very intelligent but something of a loner and never really stood out.

It seems he has spent years planning this meticulously . . .

. . . including establishing a farm as cover for his acquisition of large quantities of ammonium nitrate fertiliser (which is the basis of ANFO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANFO) explosive).

2011 Norway attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks)

visibility3miles
24th Jul 2011, 23:35
con
Only if he dies within 21 years after being sentenced. Maximum prison term for any crime in Norway is 21 years. So I guess he will be released when he is what, 52/53 years old?

Can he be sentenced to sequential prison terms, or do they have to run concurrently?

21 years for everything isn't much, but 21 years times 50 to 90+ assault/homicide charges is a long time.

Even 2 years per homicide is a long time if served one after another.

These acts were horrific and irrational.

prospector
25th Jul 2011, 00:42
"These acts were horrific and irrational."

Not likely to get much disagreement with that statement.

But any more horrific or irrational than 9/11, or the London bombings, or the Madrid bombings???

And what is the common thread that is used by the perpetrators of these atrocities?

lomapaseo
25th Jul 2011, 01:54
And what is the common thread that is used by the perpetrators of these atrocities?

That one voice will be heard by millions and applauded by few.

I doubt in the history of mankind that you can stop that. Best we work on limiting the carnage

stuckgear
25th Jul 2011, 07:28
This evening some additional news came out about the killer. He was pumped up with anabolic steroids.


Interesting comment. Anabolic Steroid users/abusers can show irrationality, paranoia, violent outbursts, psychosis and even long psychological damage:

Of growing concern to physicians and psychologists is the mounting evidence that anabolic /androgenic steroids cause severe and sometimes permanent mental disorders. The addictive nature of steroids often leads users to administer progressively higher doses and more exotic combinations of the drugs to maintain and increase the initial muscle building effects (Occhipinti 1997).

Abundant clinical and anecdotal evidence suggests that steroids often lead to unusually aggressive and irrational behavior.
These side effects are most often observed in individuals who have consumed high doses of steroids for an extended period of time, while also “stacking” several types of steroids to be administered together (Dalby 1992); for example, testosterone and nandroline deconate. In fact, one researcher cites that all of the users examined in his study who experienced psychotic symptoms were “stacking” between two and four steroids (Pope & Katz 1988).

Increasingly, it appears that anabolic steroid-induced behavioral change, especially an increase in aggression and violence, may be one of the more reliable outcomes of this form of drug abuse (Katz and Pope, 1988). (Svare 1990)

Dr. Brian Corrigan, Consultant Physician at the Institute of Sports Medicine, Concord Hospital, Sydney, Australia, groups the psychological effects of steroids into three categories.
The initial effects are most commonly evidenced in mood changes and euphoria. An increase in confidence, energy, self-esteem, motivation, and enthusiasm are common (Corrigan 1996). One 23 year old user proclaimed that steroids made him feel like he was “the strongest person in the world” (Pope&Katz 1990). Corrigan also notes that users may experience a marked increase in libido, as well as, irritability, anger, and agitation (Corrigan 1990).

Several other studies indicate that depression and suicidal ideation often accompany the feelings of uncontrollable violence and paranoia experienced by steroid users (Perry 1997). In fact, testosterone, which was once used to treat depression is now known to cause it (Corrigan 1996).

etc etc.

BarbiesBoyfriend
25th Jul 2011, 10:05
Mass immigration causes a lot of tension in a society.

That tension will build up if not adressed and can lead to tragedies like this one.

In Norway, like in the UK, to express dissatisfaction with mass immigration is to be branded a racist - but in Norway, a clear majority of the population want an end of it.

It's about time that governments listened to the people that they claim to represent.

I'm no apologist for this murderer.

ORAC
25th Jul 2011, 10:48
Breivik's “manifesto" quoted large chunks of a similar “manifesto” by Ted Kaczynski (the American Unabomber) who's hate was of central government.

So, a Scandinavian supporter of a minority national party guns down kills dozens of other Scandinavians supporters of thwe government party. Not a foreign immigrant, let alone a Muslim was among the victims. Government buildings were targeted in the Oslo bombing, not a mosque or synagogue.

So notwithstanding his ramblings in his "mainfesto", what are the realities of his action? Whatever his claims to be a protector western culture, the people he targetted were solely his own fellow citizens, based on their politics.

Whatever efforts some may make to suggest this was somehow related to immigration and religion, the most direct comparison is the Oklahoma bomber Timothy McVeigh. He should be seen as such, whatever his pretentions and fantasies, and locked up and the key thrown away.

From the reports I doubt he had accomplicies, but got his inspiration from the internet, the source of much radicalisation these days as like minds of any type find each other and wind each other into a frenzy. Whatever the proposals, I cannot see anyway of preventing that without also preventing free speech.

Intellgence can help find conspiracies, but is unlike to find individuals. Better checks on purchasers of fertiliser would have been unlikely to flag someone who'd built a background as a farmer.

But if they can track the gun and the ammunition suppliers, they throw them in gaol and throw away the keys as well.

tony draper
25th Jul 2011, 11:05
Predictably the Brit media is turning it into the usual circus of voyeuristic infotainment,pets lips quivering that they are not being allowed into the courtroom.
:suspect:

Ancient Mariner
25th Jul 2011, 11:07
ORAC: "So, a blonde blue-eyed Scandinavian supporter of a minority national party guns down kills dozens of other blonde blue-eyed Scandinavians supporters of thwe government party. Not a foreign immigrant, let alone a Muslim was among the victims."

Not that it matters to me and probably neither to the killer, but this is not correct. They, the young socialists, were a rather multicultural lot.
Per

ORAC
25th Jul 2011, 11:23
AM, my apologies for that, my point was that their race and religion was not his focus. The targets of his two attacks were politically chosen.

Ancient Mariner
25th Jul 2011, 12:52
ORAC, my understanding too. Victims were whoever happened to be at the scene.
Per

Al Fakhem
25th Jul 2011, 13:03
Not a foreign immigrant, let alone a Muslim was among the victims

Not true. On ITV news, they interviewed a wounded victim in a hospital bed. His name was something like Zafar Hussain. Then there was a young woman survivor called Prableen Kaur (a sikh) whose story has been carried widely in the press.

Henry09
25th Jul 2011, 13:19
I am delighted that they chose to hold the court hearing behind closed doors. It means this monster was not given any 'stage' upon which to express himself to the world media, which by all accounts he was looking forward to. It has been requested he is now held for 8 weeks in isolation in order that the extensive investigation can take place. The thing that will now drive this scumbag crazy for 24 hours a day is that he wants to talk to the world, about why he has done what he has done and nobody but the Judge, lawyers and police are listening. Sweet!! I am sure the police will convey to the families of those affected the 'reason' the monster gives to account for himself. Now he can start to experience what 21 years in solitary is going to feel like.

Ancient Mariner
25th Jul 2011, 13:28
Solitary for 21 years not going to happen here. We're not Singapore. ;)
Per

Henry09
25th Jul 2011, 13:37
Neither am I per, so whats your point? Give him a TV and a computer and a room full of mates?

Ancient Mariner
25th Jul 2011, 13:43
Just stating a fact, Henry. No solitary confinement for 21 years in Norway regardless of my opinion. I read your location to be Singapore where I understand that the prison system and penalties are somewhat different.
Per

Henry09
25th Jul 2011, 13:54
Per

Maybe it was just the way you worded it with the smug wink.

I just find it funny that a trait of this particular board is that if you claim to be domicile whilst working in a particular country some members then seem to consider that you advocate their methods of Government or condone their methods of punishment. I have worked throughout the Middle East also, and neither agree or condone anything their respective governments do either, they are all a bunch of oxygen thieves. By the way, if it were Singapore, he would not do solitary either. In 10 weeks he would be swinging at the end of a rope, and if not then he could look forward to having the skin whipped off his ass and back once a year for the next 50 years. Not saying I agree, its just a fact.

If the man concerned does not spend 21 years in solitary, then I doubt his life expectancy will be much longer than the occasion he is mixed with the other Norwegian prisoners.

tony draper
25th Jul 2011, 14:02
Why do we have trials in cases like this? he did it, there is not one iota of doubt he did it and he admits he did it, his guilt is beyond dispute,why not just stick him up in front of a Judge for sentencing,save a lot of time speculation and taxpayers money.

sitigeltfel
25th Jul 2011, 14:06
If the man concerned does not spend 21 years in solitary, then I doubt his life expectancy will be much longer than the occasion he is mixed with the other Norwegian prisoners.

Some websites are claiming that the Muslim prison population in Norway could be as high as 30% of the total from a population density of between 2 and 3.4%. This seems to reflect statistics in other European countries.

Can anyone shed further light on this, and if true, an explanation?

onetrack
25th Jul 2011, 14:20
This bloke will become the holy grail of every psych around the place, wanting to dissect his mind. IMO, he's just plain mad and bad... a more devious and cunning individual than Martin Bryant... but just as mad.
What I find interesting is how he's flown beneath the radar for so long. Usually nutters alert someone, with their occasional loopy outburst... but this bloke has just sailed along through society and no-one has apparently noticed that the wheels in his head were missing a cog.
I find it interesting that his parents divorced when he was young, and neither appear to have taken much interest in him after they divorced. He was also a rampant, hard-core War-gamer.
So... his parents started his loss of social connection, which helps develop callousness... and constant computer gaming has probably led to his almost total removal of societal connections.
Add in steriod use, and whoa! ... we have a ready-made monster with total social disconnection.
The amount of young people suffering from mental illnesses due to constant gaming is becoming alarming.
Friends of mine have two teenage sons who have been diagnosed with depression, and social disconnection mental problems, due to spending almost all their spare time gaming.
These games go on for days, and the participants suffer sleep deprivation, as well as lack of normal social contact. The kids ignore the parents, ignore home chores, and spend almost every waking moment in front of a computer.
Methinks there is a need to focus on this problem a lot more, so these gaming nutters are picked up before they become total nutters and monsters.

Load Toad
25th Jul 2011, 14:22
Though the maximum sentence in Norway is 21 years they also have the
system of Forvaring whereby...

Forvaring - Wikipedia (http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forvaring)

I'm sure you can all use Google Translate or such.

So he could still be in prison for life.




Now when these attacks happened many leaders spoke out saying they would stand by Norway &c so I'm looking forward to them taking on the threat of right wing extremists and other hate mongers.

G-CPTN
25th Jul 2011, 14:23
Has any of his family surfaced yet?

(I realise that they cannot be held responsible as he is an adult.)

sitigeltfel
25th Jul 2011, 14:30
Has any of his family surfaced yet?

Norway massacre: Killer Anders Behring Breivik was 'privileged' son of diplomat | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2018198/Norway-massacre-Killer-Anders-Behring-Breivik-privileged-son-diplomat.html)

Effluent Man
25th Jul 2011, 14:38
All those cops armed to the teeth and they took him alive.It wouldn't happen here.Now they have to keep him for maybe 50 or 60 years. Political Correctness gone mad?

Henry09
25th Jul 2011, 14:43
taking him alive shows exceptional skill, albeit he obviously wanted to be taken alive to spread his message to the world. The good news is, he cannot spread the message, the better news is that he will suffer. We all die at some point, that is our commonality with everything. Keep him for 50 years to remember and perhaps one day want to beg forgiveness from the families.

con-pilot
25th Jul 2011, 14:44
Can he be sentenced to sequential prison terms, or do they have to run concurrently?

21 years for everything isn't much, but 21 years times 50 to 90+ assault/homicide charges is a long time.

Even 2 years per homicide is a long time if served one after another.

These acts were horrific and irrational.

Excellent question and one with merit according to this by Load Toad.

Though the maximum sentence in Norway is 21 years they also have the
system of Forvaring whereby...

Forvaring - Wikipedia

I'm sure you can all use Google Translate or such.

So he could still be in prison for life.


If true and I have no reason to doubt LT, that would work. Personally, I'm with Mr. D, hang him.



Also, I read in an interview with the father, where the father cut off all contact with this guy when the kid was 16. Sixteen years old, I wonder if things would have been different if the father had stuck with his son.

I guess we'll never know, will we.

Ancient Mariner
25th Jul 2011, 14:49
Henry, the smug wink was ment to take the "edge" off. Can't win every time.
"you advocate their methods of Government or condone their methods of punishment." I never implied that, never would. I have visited Singapore extensively for business since 1973 and also lived there for a few years. They have their system, we have ours.
Per

Henry09
25th Jul 2011, 14:52
Per

OK, understood thanks, sensitive subject. :ok:

Ancient Mariner
25th Jul 2011, 15:03
No Problem, Henry. As you said, sensitive subject and the Internet is not the most emotionally transparent medium. Add in English as my second language and..................all is good.
Per

hellsbrink
25th Jul 2011, 15:10
But if they can track the gun and the ammunition suppliers, they throw them in gaol and throw away the keys as well.

How can they do that if his firearms and ammunition were obtained LEGALLY?


:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

sitigeltfel
25th Jul 2011, 15:15
A bit of welcome news from the BBC...

Police have now revised down the island killings to 68 but increased the bomb death toll by one to eight.

Al Fakhem
25th Jul 2011, 15:40
We always hear democratic leaders professing that whilst it is the objective of terrorists to force democratic systems into adopting restrictive and even oppressive measures, "we shall not give them this satisfaction".

Well, in Norway they have have just done so by excluding the public as well as the media from the court hearing today.

Load Toad
25th Jul 2011, 15:44
Political Correctness gone mad?

What an asinine comment. The were following the correct process & what makes us 'better' is not acting like 'them' (where 'them' are scum with no respect for law, order or humanity).

Henry09
25th Jul 2011, 15:45
Al
I think they are just worried that someone will top him. That would be exceedingly bad form now. Better safe than sorry. It will all come out in the wash.

Nemrytter
25th Jul 2011, 15:55
In Norway, like in the UK, to express dissatisfaction with mass immigration is to be branded a racist - but in Norway, a clear majority of the population want an end of it.
Really? I know quite a lot of Norwegians and I don't know any who think that way. Do you have any statistics to back that point up?
I'm not saying that I think you're wrong, it's just surprising for me to hear that.

Airborne Aircrew
25th Jul 2011, 16:13
What an asinine comment. The were following the correct process & what makes us 'better' is not acting like 'them'Why the asinine fascination with being "better" than these people? Do people really get the warm and fuzzies thinking "I'm better, superior even"? :hmm:

It's the behaviour they understand. Let's foster an environment of understanding and give them what they would give us. He's guilty. There's no question. Let some Muslims stone him to death.

PanPanYourself
25th Jul 2011, 16:18
Some websites are claiming that the Muslim prison population in Norway could be as high as 30% of the total from a population density of between 2 and 3.4%. This seems to reflect statistics in other European countries.

Can anyone shed further light on this, and if true, an explanation?

Most Muslim immigrants in Norway are from poor countries, and they are generally not highly educated. A lot of them have had to endure more bullying and bigotry than a Western born person can possibly imagine. It would make sense that a disproportionate number of them have committed crimes when compared to pampered and privileged natives. Or are you trying to infer something other than that?

This is hardly the time to make political statements about Muslims or any other group, the victims were a very multicultural lot, so think about that for a minute.

Ancient Mariner
25th Jul 2011, 16:24
Al F, they did not want to provide him with a platform from which to preach and they were worried that he would provide "coded messages" to fellow "knights".
Per

MountainBear
25th Jul 2011, 16:30
This bloke will become the holy grail of every psych around the place, wanting to dissect his mind. IMO, he's just plain mad and bad... a more devious and cunning individual than Martin Bryant... but just as mad.For me, his psychology is uninteresting because it's perfectly normal. What is more interesting is the psychology of the posters in this thread, which is wonderfully naive.

If you think this guy is mad you're crazy. There are plenty of people in the world who would do the same thing given the right conditions and even if they wouldn't they would still cheer him on in their hearts. Of course people are going to condemn his actions at the present. Some will do so out of genuine horror; some because they know it's not politically correct to say what they truly think or feel.


If you "fail to comprehend" this man's actions and have a genuine interest in the topic beyond venting spleen I recommend the book Fires of Hatred. He's not a loner or a misfit; he's the tip of the iceberg.

vulcanised
25th Jul 2011, 16:47
I think Mountain Bear makes some good points.

The man's actions are abominable but his motives deserve much serious consideration.

sitigeltfel
25th Jul 2011, 16:55
Hats off to this guy :D

German tourist Marcel Gleffe has been hailed a hero after reports emerged detailing how he rescued 20 teenagers from the horror shooting in Norway.
Gleffe was preparing to visit the island with his family when Anders Behring Breivik opened fire of the youngsters at the campsite.

Gleffe told German magazine Der Spiegel that many of the teenagers initially feared he was Breivik's accomplace: 'They were everywhere in the water. I threw lifejackets with a rope attached to them and pulled them aboard, they were all screaming and crying.
'Some of them were shouting, 'Keep away... Don't come any closer'. Others were even asking, "Are you going to kill us?".'
Gleffe revealed how he used his initiative after recognising the tragedy that was unfolding within miles of where he and his family were staying.

He said: 'I just did it on instinct. You don't get scared in a situation like that, you just do what it takes.

German tourist Marcel Gleffe has been hailed a hero after reports emerged detailing how he rescued 20 teenagers from the horror shooting in Norway.
Gleffe was preparing to visit the island with his family when Anders Behring Breivik opened fire of the youngsters at the campsite.

Gleffe told German magazine Der Spiegel that many of the teenagers initially feared he was Breivik's accomplace: 'They were everywhere in the water. I threw lifejackets with a rope attached to them and pulled them aboard, they were all screaming and crying.
'Some of them were shouting, 'Keep away... Don't come any closer'. Others were even asking, "Are you going to kill us?".'
Gleffe revealed how he used his initiative after recognising the tragedy that was unfolding within miles of where he and his family were staying.

He said: 'I just did it on instinct. You don't get scared in a situation like that, you just do what it takes.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/07/25/article-0-0D24D08500000578-376_468x286.jpg Rescue: Gleffe hauled teenagers out of Breivik's grasp using his boat

'I know the difference between fireworks and gunfire. I knew what it was about, and that it wasn't just nonsense.
'I recognised the sound of the automatic weapon straight away.
'Then I saw two youths who swam away from the island. Then smoke grenades came and several bursts from the automatic weapon.

'I saw through the binoculars that there were more people in the water.'
Gleffe returned to the water no fewer than four times before he was instructed to stop by the police amidst fears for his safety.

'I took between four and five trips. After that the police asked me to stop.

Lon More
25th Jul 2011, 17:02
Claiming he didn't act alone in court

pineridge
25th Jul 2011, 17:06
Simonpro said........................


"Really? I know quite a lot of Norwegians and I don't know any who think that way. Do you have any statistics to back that point up?"


The party most associated with so-called right wing ideals in Norway is the Fremskritt Party. (Progress Party). This is the group that the killer was, for a short time, a member of some years ago.
This party`s platform includes a desire to severely limit immigration from the third world, especially those seeking refugee status. The party`s relative hard line has earned them the label of "racist" from the left wing of the country`s politicians and media and also attracted the attention of some of Norway`s far right.
The only statistics I can offer you are the results of the last two general elections in which the Progress party received 22.1 and 22.4 percent of the vote in Norway making them the next most popular party in the country.

G-CPTN
25th Jul 2011, 17:56
When I lived and worked in Denmark in the 1980s, there was an open-door policy towards refugees, and many Vietnamese boat people were welcomed.
There was also a significant Turkish population who had arrived as 'guest workers' and undertook the manual labour jobs that weren't popular with the Danish people.

Of course that was when there was full employment (ie unemployment was low), and everything seemed rosy with the immigrants being treated with respect for their cultures.

After I returned to the UK I detected that there was growing resentment as unemployment rose with claims that the immigrants were taking the jobs that Danes should have - an understandable 'belief', whether true or not.

Heresay:-
I heard a comment on BBC Radio Five (since the Oslo events) that Denmark had 'woken up' and was no longer the haven for 'foreigners' that it had previously been.

Even Sweden (who had also welcomed refugees in the 1980s) had changed its attitude towards immigrants, it was said, whilst Norway continued to consider itself as a universal community regardless of race or creed.

The correspondent (who I don't remember their qualifications or nationality) suggested that it was time for Norway to face up to the approaching crisis.

As I have stated, this was all heresay, and I don't have any evidence to support the claims, however a search on Googoo came up with this:-
Immigration and the Nordic Welfare State Model « The Harvard Political Review (http://hpronline.org/world/political-economy/immigration-and-the-nordic-welfare-state-model/)

and:-
Danish immigration laws criticised by human rights institute | IceNews - Daily News (http://www.icenews.is/index.php/2010/05/21/danish-immigration-laws-criticised-by-human-rights-institute/)

Juud
25th Jul 2011, 18:33
So if they believe that they will change this monster by group hugging with him and singing Kumbaya, so be it.

Attempting to ridicule and belittle what the people of Norway are doing is your right Con, but it says something about you I´d rather not have heard.

Nobody here believes that love, mutual support and humanity will change the terrorist. Contrary to what you insinuate, they are neither stupid nor naive.

They do believe that by sharing love, by giving mutual support and by stressing the importance of humanity, they stop this terrorist from changing their country.

Jens Stoltenberg explains it well in this BBC video: Norwegian Prime Minister on terror attack (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14281490)

150 000 people in Oslo, waving flowers and softly singing the national anthem, also demonstrated it:

http://static.vg.no/uploaded/image/bilderigg/2011/07/25/1311615015832_963.jpg


As did all those people around the country who marched tonight:
H7JlEfyNtKg


Just like crown prince Haakon, when he started and ended his address to the people in Oslo with these words: "Today the streets are filled with love."

PanPanYourself
25th Jul 2011, 19:15
Norway is Passing the Test of Terror (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/eirik-bergesen/norway-is-passing-the-tes_b_908008.html)

...The attacker identified himself as a Christian, conservative, anti-Islam nationalist. Although his methods fortunately were unique, his alarmist diagnosis of the threats of multiculturalism are more common, even in Norway, than we like to admit. However, instead of retaliating politically, legally or simply through moral finger-pointing towards groups and individuals harbouring these beliefs, the Norwegian government has retaliated with more democracy.

Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg has stated clearly that the terror will be met with more democracy and more openness. Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Støre has made clear that tomorrow's Norway will be fully recognisable. Not only have these phrases been repeated. They have been implemented. The city centre was quickly reopened. Norwegian politicians and the Royal Family have spent the last days meeting with large crowds of people, with limited security, always at a discreet distance.

Even more interesting, perhaps, there hasn't even been a public outcry for more security for the politicians to address. No opposition politicians, not even social media voices, have demanded more public security or pointed to the lack thereof as potential discouragements to the attacks. There has been no visible debate on gun laws or even on the sale of fertilizer, used by the attacker. Neither has there been calls for stricter legal punishment, Norway has 21 years as its maximum prison sentence. The limits to rhetoric in public debates have not been addressed. Norwegian terrorism expert Tore Bjørgo explained in an interview that more extensive computer surveillance could possibly have detected the attacker's plans. But quickly added: "Although this is obviously a level of monitoring the Norwegian people would not agree to."...

con-pilot
25th Jul 2011, 19:41
Attempting to ridicule and belittle what the people of Norway are doing is your right Con, but it says something about you I´d rather not have heard.

Well you know Juud, I'd rather not heard about this horrible tragedy in Norway, I'd much rather never heard about the bombing of the Murray Building in Oklahoma City, much less having to live through the aftermath.

There are very, very evil people in this world we live in. I prayed that I would never witness another horrid act such as McVeigh committed against innocent people, including children. But I am, right now. By the exact same type of sick, inhuman mind as McVeigh. These sick people are of every race, creed and religion. They live in nearly every country on Earth. We must guard against these animals, when we fail, as proven Friday, we must respond even stronger and with more resolve.

As for 'ridiculing and belittling' the people of Norway. (self edited) I lived through what they are living through, I suffered the pain that they are suffering, I asked the same unanswerable question they are asking; WHY?

Just days after the OKC bombing I walked with thousands of others that had suffered personal losses and a few survivors of the bombing, from the Murray Building, still showing the raw damage including blood stains on the street, a little over a mile to the Civic Center for a memorial service. Tens of thousands of people lined the route we walked, people that had driven in from all seven surrounding states and many other areas of the United States. There was no singing, no chanting, no dancing, nothing but the sounds of sobbing.

That parade (for lack of a better term) did not bring Kathy back to life, it didn't resurrect any of the little children that had been so horrible slaughtered. But it filled us with a sense of companionship, a feeling of purpose and resolve to never allow something like this to ever happen again and to punish the ones responsible for this insane act, by people who in fact are not insane.

"Belittle and ridicule" the people of Norway Juud? No Juud, I am one of the people of Norway, I have been since Friday.

Ancient Mariner
25th Jul 2011, 19:55
Con-pilot.
Thanks,
Per

PanPanYourself
25th Jul 2011, 20:48
In scale, Norway's attack was on par with 9/11.
That occurred to me too, but in the interest of correctness I must point out that more people were killed per capita in Norway's attack. 1 death for every 66,000 Norwegians(with the revised death toll), as opposed to 1 for every 100,000 Americans on 9/11.

Apologies, my ever-calculating mind made that comparison against my will.

Airborne Aircrew
25th Jul 2011, 21:00
That occurred to me too, but in the interest of correctness I must point out that more people were killed per capita in Norway's attack. 1 death for every 66,000 Norwegians(with the revised death toll), as opposed to 1 for every 100,000 Americans on 9/11.


So... You're saying that, had the same thing happened in China or India, it would be no big deal?:E

11Fan
25th Jul 2011, 21:01
Apologies, my ever-calculating mind made that comparison against my will.

Really?

Using that logic, then if the Police had arrived a half an hour later.... :hmm:

I suspect BandAide's point was the "emotional" impact to Norway. After 9/11, there was a saying that "we" have never been more "United" or ever felt more "American". A little play on words there if you look for it. Nevertheless, it did change us.

I hope and trust Norway will get through this. The picture Judd posted suggests promise, but like BandAide said, it will be different from now on.

PanPanYourself
25th Jul 2011, 21:11
Using that logic, then if the Police had arrived a half an hour later...
Not really sure what you're getting at there. Please clarify.

The police arrived late enough as it is, 90 minutes from when they were dispatched. There was an unarmed security officer with the children, and he was killed. The police are not armed in Norway. They had to wait for a special unit from Oslo, which (despite the insane taxes we pay) were under equipped to respond on time.

Airborne, still too early to make a joke like that. := But I forgive you.

11Fan
25th Jul 2011, 21:21
PPY,

Nothing more than suggesting if you are reducing the tragedy to numbers, and there had been more casualties, your "statistical comparisons" would have been more in alignment. That is if the massacre had gone on longer obviously.

Thankfully it ended when it did, but it is still terribly horrific and it will be forever etched in your countrymen's memories, as it will ours. As Con suggested, Norway's population grew considerably the other day, if not in population, at least it has in spirit as we all share in the grief.

I wish you well.

ORAC
25th Jul 2011, 21:24
Four points, open for debate.

1. If he is a single deranged individual, do you attempt to limit the sites and demagogues he used as sources? A note of caution, if applied equally, that would imply a vast majority of religious sites of various persuasions would also have to be banned.

2. As information, and associations between individuals, becomes increasingly diverse on the internet, do have to accept that it has to be also increasingly available to the security services? And that, therefore, the present data protection rules have to be relaxed - or reconsidered?

3. It took nearly 2 hours for the Norwegian police to respond. Even as a eurosceptic, in terms of the EU and NATO, should there be heavy pressure to drop it's plans for a duplicate of NATO (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8645749/Britain-blocks-EU-plans-for-operational-military-headquarters.html), and instead implement an equivalent, with fast reaction forces across the area, of the FBI?

There would seem to be a face off between those in the USA who advocate an open gun culture and those elsewhere, as in the UK, who advocate the opposite - never the twain shall meet. However, in this case, it can admitted that someone on site with a gun might have stopped him in his tracks. And I'll point out that, under conscription, many nations had reservists with guns at home. is there a middle way with, perhaps, the equivalent of special constables able to carry concealed arms on a regular basis?

LN-KGL
25th Jul 2011, 21:26
It is impossible compare one tragedy against another. One life lost is one too many.

It is however possible to compare the perpetrators against each other, and there are number of Internet sites that show such comparisons.

For more information on the Norway attacks:
2011 Norway attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks)
Life Magazine have a very moving photo series that I strongly recommend you all visit:
Oslo Attacks: A Bloody Aftermath - Photo Gallery - LIFE (http://www.life.com/gallery/63101/oslo-attacks-a-bloody-aftermath#index/0)

PanPanYourself
25th Jul 2011, 21:26
Arithmetic is not your strong suit is it 11Fan? If the massacre had gone on longer the numbers would be less in alignment, not more. More people were killed per capita in Norway, if it had gone on longer that would still be the case, even more so.

Not reducing anything to numbers (and the implication is rather insulting), I know people intimately who were affected by this tragedy, and I live in Oslo. Just pointing out a simple statistic for discussion, this is a huge attack on a small country.

11Fan
25th Jul 2011, 21:30
PPY,

Just pointing out a simple statistic for discussion, this is a huge attack on a small country.

Of course, you are correct. I concede.

PanPanYourself
25th Jul 2011, 21:34
Thank you 11Fan, I wish you well too.

Ancient Mariner
25th Jul 2011, 21:35
17:27 hrs, first call received by police reporting shooting at Utøya
18:27 hrs, killer surrenders to police.
60 minutes in total. Consider local police' small force, 30 kms from Oslo, first boat used by special forces lost 10 minutes due to engine problems.
60 minutes, not bad for a force with not that much experience.
Per

west lakes
25th Jul 2011, 21:37
The police are not armed in Norway.


That's probably the first thing that needs to be fixed.

So just under 14 months ago an individual with his own agenda shot and killed 12 folk in this area.
The same arguments came out enquiries were held and it was determined that there was no need to arm the police force.

Now if the same were to occur on a regular basis there might have been a need, but please explain for what are so far one off events (well OK last year could be classed as the third in the UK in 24 years)
1/ As there were no Police officers on the island how would he have been stopped
But more importantly
2/ Why the constant need to (on both sides I admit) to try and run each others countries? I am not aware of any folk involved last year, shouting to arm the police, except perhaps for the sensationalist press and folk from other countries!

Tankertrashnav
25th Jul 2011, 21:49
As an aside, I was very impressed with the shows of floral tributes amassed in Oslo and other places. Without exception the flowers had been laid unwrapped, thus avoiding the scruffy mess which invariably results when wrapped flowers are laid, as is invariably the case in this country. The outside of Kensington Palace looked like a tip in the days following the death of Diana, the very opposite of what those who left the flowers had intended.

I was surprised about the unarmed police force. Assuming the TV series Wallander is true to life, the famously neutral Swedes next door have armed police, odd that the Norwegians dont.

Ancient Mariner
25th Jul 2011, 21:52
BandAide, I think you might expect business pretty much as usual here as soon as things quiet down a bit. We're not much for extreme measures.
Per

G-CPTN
25th Jul 2011, 21:55
someone on site with a gun might have stopped him in his tracks.Who would have dared to shoot (and kill?) a Policeman ?
(and don't forget he had a 'machine gun' and a considerable quantity of ammunition)

I wonder where all the flowers came from? Did someone foresee an opportunity?

LN-KGL
25th Jul 2011, 22:16
For those interested, here is more about the Norwegian Police:
Norwegian Police Service - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Police_Service)
A service provided by Public Education Office aka Google

TBirdFrank
25th Jul 2011, 22:47
My first visit to Ulster - 12th July 1969 - my first naive experience of religious bigotry - protestant v catholic. I studied how this had all arisen and watched as the ripples, largely funded by Noraid, it must be said, spread to encompass the mainland - and in 1996 blew the heart out of my own city, with thankfully - no casualties.

We sailed from Miami for Southampton on the 1st September 2001, via New York, not knowing that we would be the last ship out of that city before 9/11 and carrying 600 people joining there. I was - accidentally - the first person to set foot on UK soil after that world shattering event, and saw how the people of the world can come together - citizens of the US and of Scotland, in George Square, Glasgow that day, when the people of Glasgow - silent in memory of the events of a few days before found themselves sharing their city with residents of the USA also in town that day.

Proddie v Left Footer, Christians v Muslims, Black v White - what are we all about?

Last month we watched with wonderment the unbroken coverage of the Hurtigruten which now seems a lifetime ago. If Norway can manage to conduct itself with that same humanity in the future, as indicated by the gatherings and common purpose seen over the last few days, that will be the best memorial to those lost on Friday - not a retrenchment into Security scares and TSA nonsense as has imposed itself on the west this last decade.

Consciousness of the potential for problems is one thing - letting them take over life entirely another.

SMT Member
25th Jul 2011, 22:52
except there are too many fu*kwits in this world

... as has been amply demonstrated by the actions of this lunatic. One of his problems was indeed getting access to weapons, he traveled to Prague and Copenhagen in a futile attempt to secure them illegally. Eventually he had to join to gun club, and do all the tests, before being granted permission to own a very limited, and exactly defined, number of guns.

Imagine if he'd been able to nip down to the local death merchant and tool himself up, Rambo style.

Nemrytter
26th Jul 2011, 06:28
In response to ORAC's points: I don't think it's worth making knee-jerk reactions to events like this. Norwegian culture and laws have worked well for quite a long time, why change them as a result of this attack?
The guy who did it was a nut, a guy with tremendous determination. No matter what laws you have in place I'm sure that he could have carried out this attack. Maybe it would have taken more planning, more money or more time but I'm sure he could have done it anyway.
So why change the laws to add more restrictions to media/internet/etc as a result of this? What would it really accomplish?

probes
26th Jul 2011, 06:51
People, I think, were so much more polite, then, and they hadn't an inkling about mass murder. What changed?

A very good question. What, indeed?

chuks
26th Jul 2011, 07:40
People had a very good idea about mass murder in the States around 1870! Just read up on 'Bleeding Kansas' and 'John Brown,' for example.

Further back, 'the Great Swamp Fight' that wiped out most of the Pequot Indian tribe was a sort of mass slaughter, but that one didn't count because it just rid us of some pesky redskins, 'business as usual.'

Part of the problem is this rather sad American acceptance of the myth that the gun was an integral part of life on the frontier, when that was simply not so. It has been pushed by the NRA in particular but the facts are against this interpretation of our history. Even so, it has leaked out into the rest of the world as a way for so many to feel empowered, toting a shootin' iron.

We will have to wait for the trial to get all the details but what has emerged from newspaper accounts and a quick look at the killer's manifesto is the picture of yet another fantasist who felt fully justified in taking lives to further a cause that seems to have existed mainly in his imagination.

When you look at the pictures he chose to close his manifesto with you see something a that looks like a 'Walt' but a killer Walt, posed with his ridiculous assault rifle festooned with every accessory going, or stood there in his imaginary dress uniform with its imaginary ribbons and gongs. Evidently he expected to wear that uniform during his court appearance while making a speech, never imagining that a judge could simply tell him, 'No.'

Well, he doesn't recognize Norwegian justice, according to the papers, but I hope Norwegian justice recognizes him. Certainly Norwegian society has recognized hate and answered that in a very measured way, perhaps the best answer one can give to this twistedly rational killer.

Octopussy2
26th Jul 2011, 08:08
I think the quiet dignity of the Norwegians (and those who have adopted Norway as their country of residence) on this thread tells us everything about the way they will be dealing with the aftermath of this horrible event.

My impression of the murderer is of someone whose emotional development didn't progress much beyond 15 or 16 years old, who has joined a "movement" that allowed him to live a fantasy life, the notions of being a "knight", the dressing up, the feeling part of something, coupled with a child's inability to empathise (ie. to really understand the enormity of what he has done, to realise he's killing fellow human beings and what that actually means). In other words, another example of how vulnerable human beings can be radicalised by those with an agenda of evil. Possibly all this in reaction to some actual/perceived hurt/disengagement in his childhood.

But it's just speculation and I apologise if it's felt to be too early to be engaging in such.

SINGAPURCANAC
26th Jul 2011, 08:09
My deep condolence to Norwegian people.

We have discussion this morning (all participants have more or less military and counter terrorism background ) and some questions remain unclear,so we have some questions to more familiar people:
-Is there counter -terrorist unit in Norway,at all
-do they have dedicated helicopter/helicopter unit for their operations
-Are these helicopters manned 24/7
-How it happened "not to have available crew for helicopters"
- Is it standard in Norway, to allow all essential service members holiday at the same time?
and so on....

Pretty schocking for us.We except that Norway is by far serious country.
And I still believe that Norway is great country. In terms of overall society development.

Ancient Mariner
26th Jul 2011, 08:55
SINGAPURCANAC:
-Is there counter -terrorist unit in Norway,at all
-do they have dedicated helicopter/helicopter unit for their operations
-Are these helicopters manned 24/7
-How it happened "not to have available crew for helicopters"
- Is it standard in Norway, to allow all essential service members holiday at the same time?
and so on....


I am not sure about our Armed Forces although I believe they have Special Forces aimed at counter terrorism. As for the police my understanding is:
Yes they have counter-terrorist units, then
No
No
They have only one police helicopter, I watched a press conference yesterday and they said that it was not suitable for troop movements, surveilance only. They also mentioned lack of resources, i.e. crew and maintenance as a factor.
It is not standard to allow everyone vacation at the same time, do however remember that summer is short here and everyone will try to squeeze in their vacation in July, early August.
Add in factors like Norway being very quiet during summer, apart from numerous music/theatre/folklore/sport festivals and events, a normally peaceful country filled with 4.8 millions bleeding heart, meek, left-wing tree-huggers and you'll understand why things just might take a bit more time over here.
Then again we wouldn't have it any other way.
Per

Rollingthunder
26th Jul 2011, 09:18
They have only one police helicopter, I watched a press conference yesterday and they said that it was not suitable for troop movements, surveilance only.

Good enough for moving in at least three troups that might have made a difference.

G-CPTN
26th Jul 2011, 09:42
In the history of mankind, the helicopter is a recent addition, and the use by Police even more-so, so castigating them for not having one (or more) on 24/7 availability in a country that spans a very large area is unfair.
The same argument applies to having the Police armed 24/7 (although most forces will have some availability of firearms nowadays).

Undoubtedly, the Norwegian Police (and those based in Oslo) will examine their resources after these events, but don't expect a universal solution to be applied across the whole of Norway that provides armed special forces to reach any incident within minutes, so rogue assassins will be able to mirror the events at Utøya given similar circumstances. With the weapons that this guy had he could have killed even more at a gathering in an urban environment such as a busy railway station, or a shopping precinct - even a gathering to welcome the Hurtigruten!

This guy is intelligent (if misguided) and he planned his assault meticulously, so whatever precautions are introduced it is impossible to guarantee that this can never happen again.

Just heard that the authorities are considering a charge of 'crime against humanity' which carries a sentence of 30 years in prison.

mixture
26th Jul 2011, 10:02
Location : SW England

and

I was surprised about the unarmed police force.


Talk about an ironic statement. :E

Why the gung-ho attitude ? The vast majority of the UK police force is unarmed, would you like to see them all armed too ?

Would armed people have prevented 7/7 and 9/11 ? Probably not is the honest truth. Giving everyone guns is not necessarily the right answer to the problem.

SINGAPURCANAC
26th Jul 2011, 10:31
the helicopter is a recent addition, and the use by Police even more-so, so castigating them for not having one (or more) on 24/7 availability in a country that spans a very large area is unfair.
The same argument applies to having the Police armed 24/7 (although most forces will have some availability of firearms nowadays).

last 30 years ,minimum, if no more, dedicated(trained,equipped and available 24/7)counter terrorist unit and dedicated helicopter(s) is standard throughout Europe .

But I am very confident that since Munich Olimpic games (1972) is more realistic period of time, if we are talking about counter terorist units developments .....

If it happens in Gabon,that there is no adequate helicopter for" special" purposes,I could understand, but in Europe.....:ugh::ugh:

G-CPTN
26th Jul 2011, 11:09
Apparently, the lawyer 'chosen' by the suspect to represent him is a member of the Norwegian Labour Party . . .

The link between the two seems to be that the suspect operated a business from the same building as the lawyer's premises. There is no suggestion that the two have ever met previously.

The opinion of the lawyer is that the suspect is insane (based on his assessment of his interviews so far).
An interview with the lawyer suggests to me that he (the lawyer) is an intelligent person - he comes over as fair, and will do his best within the parameters available to him.

Ancient Mariner
26th Jul 2011, 11:26
Singapurcanac, I bet most European countries have what you are suggesting, but we are not Europe, we are Norway.
Our area is some 380.000+ kilometers square, the lenght is about 2.000 km from North to South and the pop.density about 13/km2. That is average and most people live in the SE and along the South and West Coast.
Please figure out for me how many anti-terrorist personell and helicopters would have to be deployed where in order to have a say, 30 min responstime to anywhere in Norway 24/7/52. Remember to account for topography and climate. Then you might like to find someone to finance the scheme as we are not prepared to.
Per

Henry09
26th Jul 2011, 11:32
SINGAPURCANAC


last 30 years ,minimum, if no more, dedicated(trained,equipped and available 24/7)counter terrorist unit and dedicated helicopter(s) is standard throughout Europe .

I don't know where some of you get your 'absolutely indisputable' information from, but perhaps it is not as robust as you think. But lets play along with you for a moment, lets just say a resource as you suggest exists in all European countries. The countries are fairly large you know. IF an incident occurred say in Edinburgh in the UK, it could take the 'dedicated counter terrorist asset' you talk about 6 hours to get there from its location. These assets if they exist are not just magically there within 10 mins, and the crews are not on two minutes notice to move. They could be on an hour or more call-out, but that means they could be shopping in Tesco at the time an op is called.

Rollingthinder

Where do you get the idea a surveillance Helicopter run by the police can move 3 troops in from? Do you have any idea of the all up weight of said Helicopter carrying said surveillance equipment, and whether or not there is room or indeed capacity to carry another 450 Kgs?

I cannot wait until you have all finished your PhD in hindsight.

Sometimes if you don't really know what your saying and you are going to talk bolloeux then it is better not to say anything at all.


Per

Snap :) we were typing same time.

LN-KGL
26th Jul 2011, 12:14
The police helicopter we are talking about is this:
http://www.scanavphoto.no/_img/full_size/rescue/Rescue-KGL_001.jpg

It's only used as an eye in the sky (with steady cam, IR camera), and it's main purpose is traffic surveilance close to Oslo.

mixture
26th Jul 2011, 13:15
IF an incident occurred say in Edinburgh in the UK, it could take the 'dedicated counter terrorist asset' you talk about 6 hours to get there from its location.

Won't be a problem anymore if the scots get their way and become their own "country".... suddenly it will be their own problem to deal with .... :E

Henry09
26th Jul 2011, 13:47
Most US cities of any size maintain SWAT teams, elite police forces who train specifically to interdict shooting sprees, end hostage situations and the like.

If a broke city like Detroit can afford a SWAT team, I'm pretty sure Norway could, too, if it wanted one.

Yeah but you've got a 14 Trillion dollar debt :E

MIxture

Good call!

11Fan
26th Jul 2011, 13:49
Back to your room Henry :=

Tankertrashnav
26th Jul 2011, 15:11
Mixture - I was only surprised about the fact that Norway's police are unarmed because their Scandinavian neighbour has an armed police force. Nothing more than that.

I suppose that never having visited Scandinavia I vaguely think of it as one big tree-covered country with people all speaking a similar language, spending similar money and sharing similar values.

Obviously I was wrong.

Rollingthunder
26th Jul 2011, 15:41
Personal attacks not acceptable Rolling Thunder. JB Mods

RCMP Helicopter (one of)

http://file.vustv.com/svKQXOMcp-kVT.jpg

Airborne Aircrew
26th Jul 2011, 16:28
Critics within the police have long complained that the 'Delta' anti-terrorism unit is short of transport capacity.
So, it seems that they had a known problem...

What's worrisome is that Norway hasn't been shy in it's commitment to "sandy places" in the last decade or so and one would therefore presume that they would take the threat of retaliation quite seriously. Their inability to produce an armed LEO inside 90 minutes begs questions. Especially when the event is a large, politically influenced event attended largely by young adults - clearly a target that might attract attention.

Lonewolf_50
26th Jul 2011, 16:45
This attack looks like a synthesis of the McVeigh attack (Oklahoma) and the Malvo attack (Suburban Washington DC) combined. Various sources point to this plan having been hatched over something like six or seven years.

How do you defend against this in an open society?

You can't, without breaking your open society. I think the Norwegian response to this recognizes that harsh reality. It's one of the risks of living in an open society. Now and again, some crapwit goes off.

Most of the time, no worries.

What I found strangest was some of the coverage on him linking his motivation to the NATO bombing of Serbia, 1999, and Norwegian political life being some sort of betrayal of all that is good, holy, and Norwegian.

This guy also rants against the Lutheran and Catholic churches as being pansies for some cultural Marxists ( a term he seems to have latched onto) who are trying to change or ruin or something Norway from within.

Given his competency in English, I'd bet he's been surfing the web for the past five years, and finding people who encourage a particular line of thought in the standard Internet Web Site Echo Chamber fashion. There are a lot of web sites where, if you don't toe the party line, you get banned. Those remaining undertake self reinforcing behavior. (Echo chamber, as it were).

He also appears to be a staunch partisan of the pro Israel bandwagon. Some of the farther right wing Pentacostals and Evangelists in the US are also strongly pro Israel. They too are suspicious of, or hostile to, Mulsims.

Maybe that element of his world view informs his worries that Norway won't be hard enough on Muslim immigration. Is the belief that with enough foreign, Muslim influence, Norway will be harder on Israel? Who knows? I've seen sentiments something like that expressed by some of my more Evangelist Protestant associates and neighbors.

The psychology of this case is so mixed as to be confusing. How can you, in the deterrent sense, deter the incoherent?

I don't think you can.

Back to the point about the fusion of all the stuff he seems to have soaked in form the internet. To the open society you can add the internet and its characteristics as contributing causes for how and where events like this get hatched. (See also Major Hassan and Fort Hood, while we are at it). They are contributing causes, if we are to properly get the Swiss Cheese holes all lined up.

Look at this like an aircraft accident investigation. What are all of the contributing causes?

What can you do about the internet?

The Chinese option?

Well, the Chinese approach, or the North Korean approach, is one way to play, but then, the terrorists have won, haven't they? If Norway (or pick your open society) gets more Chinese in their regulation and control of the internet, who benefits?

Is the answer to this dude more Big Brother?

One hopes not. The Norwegian response at the moment seems not to be Big Brother. All to the good.

*About this time, I expect Jane Doe to show up .... :p

vulcanised
26th Jul 2011, 16:46
A report on the BBC stated that the only helicopter was unavailable because the crew were on holiday!

con-pilot
26th Jul 2011, 16:51
In defense of Norwegians, not in our wildest imagination did anyone ever think a federal building would be blown up in Oklahoma City by a madman.

Never the less, it happened. However, after reading posts by some of the people that live in Norway here, there is a fairly large difference in the reaction here and of that in Norway.

We took steps to try, try, to prevent such a heinous act from occurring again. From what I have read here, in Norway, they seem to want to keep the status quo, which I feel is a mistake.

I can only wonder just how different things would have turned out if the off duty police officer on the island had been armed.

But shoulda, woulda, coulda, what has been done, cannot be undone.

Again my heart goes out to the people of Norway.

Lonewolf_50
26th Jul 2011, 16:58
We took steps to try, try, to prevent such a heinous act from occurring again. From what I have read here, in Norway, they seem to want to keep the status quo, which I feel is a mistake.

Not so sure, con. When in Norway, think as a Norwegian. I too believe the cops being armed would be handy, but this is one of those special cause spikes, and outlier.

Why should the occasional outrageous nut job FORCE society to change?

Maybe the Norwegians will respond with "No, we don't let outrageous nut jobs force our character to change."

Will be interesting to see how this works out in the mid to long term. At the moment, the event and pain is a bit too close.

To respond to an idiotic previous post, about why "right wing Christians" are silent on this ... well, I am a practicing Christian, though I don't think I am particularly right wing, and it is my opinion that this man has turned to evil, and listened to the influences of hatred and self centered world view advocated by the devil, not the selfless world view advocated by Christ.

If he claims to have done this in God's name, which I don't quite see explicitly, (even though he makes some reference to being a Knight Templar -- huh????) in his manifesto, then he is violating three commandments at least:

"Thou shalt not take the name of thy Lord God in vain" (claiming to be the agent of God, falsely)
"thou shalt not bear false witness" (lying about why you are doing this)
"Thou shalt not kill (murder, per above)" (well, it is murder)

I am sure the non-Christians here would love to quibble about that.

Go for it. I've said my piece on that score.

I am also saying prayers for the recently departed in Norway, whose lives were cut short at the hands of this deluded fool.

tony draper
26th Jul 2011, 19:50
You cannot stop events like this happening no matter how well armed and helicoptered up your law enforcement is,you stop them before they happen and that means draconian oversight of your population,targeting particular groups infiltrating same, telephone tapping internet hacking email reading covert and overt surveillance of your population and all the other tools of intelligence gathering,cant see the folks of Norway being happy with this either.

Airborne Aircrew
26th Jul 2011, 20:17
You cannot stop events like this happening no matter how well armed and helicoptered up your law enforcement is

No, you're absolutely correct. However, one can limit the damage once an extended duration event such as this begins, (not a bomb which is an instant event). It doesn't take any draconian measures, just the provision of weapons to certain LEO's especially those who may be at potentially high risk events such as this one. It is, frankly, no less savage to allow an individual to go on such an extended killing spree unchallenged as the act itself.

BarbiesBoyfriend
26th Jul 2011, 20:32
You can make events like this less likely by;

1. Not joining in with other countries when they do stupid things. For example recent adventures in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya etc....etc. like Norway did.

2. Remembering what a 'Country' is.

3. Remembering, if you can, how democracy is supposed to work. Read 'Republica' by Plato if you've forgotten.

A "Country", as originally developed, is a bit of ground, populated by folk who are like each other and who live there.

Unfettered imigration inevitably makes you ask, "what's a country anyway?"

If we're all going to try and live together then plainly, abolish "Countries" altogether!- who needs them?

That will take us sraight back to the days when we lived in 'Country-less' caves.

Like, before we had civilisation.

con-pilot
26th Jul 2011, 20:36
You can make events like this less likely by;

1. Not joining in with other countries when they do stupid things. For example recent adventures in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya etc....etc.

2. Remembering what a 'Country' is.

3. Remembering, if you can, how democracy is supposed to work. Read 'Republica' by Plato if you've forgotten.

A "Country", as originally developed, is a bit of ground, populated by folk who are like each other and who live there.

Unfettered imigration inevitably makes you ask, "what's a country anyway?"

If we're all going to try and live together then plainly abolish "Countries" altogether!- who needs them?

That will take us right to the days when we lived in 'Country-less' caves.

Like, before we ha

Not one of which would have stopped McVeigh or this guy. They always have an excuse for their madness.

BarbiesBoyfriend
26th Jul 2011, 20:40
Con

Wrong.

Wrong.

Wrong.

He'd never even have thought about it without mass immigration into Norway.

I assert this as fact.

hellsbrink
26th Jul 2011, 20:43
1. Not joining in with other countries when they do stupid things. For example recent adventures in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya etc....etc. like Norway did.

And what has that got to do with the motives of Breivik?

con-pilot
26th Jul 2011, 20:53
He'd never even have thought about it without mass immigration into Norway.



Sorry, I disagree, people like him always find an excuse. If not mass immigration, he would have found something else.

They must be always correct and they always must be justified in their sick pathetic minds.

Oh, one more thing, people that lived in non-country caves way in the past, gleefully slaughtered each other with great regularity.

BarbiesBoyfriend
26th Jul 2011, 21:00
Con. I've seen 'Falling down' too. But I disagree with your premise.

Even 'Terrorists' usually have a legit grievance. We may not like it brought up, but usually we stick it down their necks til they gag!

Then we negotiate with them........:hmm:

Most folk just want to live their lives out, do they not?

Until we piss them off!

Hellsbrink.

Fair point. I don't think this twit really objected to Norways participation in out 'war of terror'. I do tho.

Ancient Mariner
26th Jul 2011, 21:31
Mass immigration into Norway? I'll be darned, must be those Swedish waiters, Polish carpenters, American oil excecs, Brit rig workers, German doctors, Indian IT guys and Filipino nurses. How the heck did they manage to sneak in? Invited you say?
Per

BarbiesBoyfriend
26th Jul 2011, 21:39
Per.

My mistake.

Plainly there are no issues with immigration in Norway.

I apologise unreservedly.

Ancient Mariner
26th Jul 2011, 21:46
BarbiesBoyfriend, there are issues with immigration in Norway, plenty, but we will deal with them. The point was really that most immigrants are from "Western" countries and here because we need them. The serious issues are with refugees, those seeking asylum for one reason or another.
Per

PS
Sorry Juud, I forgot to mention Dutch Chief Pursers. My apologies.

BarbiesBoyfriend
26th Jul 2011, 23:07
Well Per, MY point was that maybe this guy was kicking against your 'non-issue'.

It might be a 'non-issue' for you but it clearly was an 'issue' for him.


Perhaps his view is held by zero other Norwegians? or maybe only a tiny fraction of people?

I don't know.

Isn't Norway the place that Norwegians come from? Isn't that why they call them 'Norwegians'?

ie.people from 'Norway?'

PanPanYourself
27th Jul 2011, 00:03
To respond to an idiotic previous post, about why "right wing Christians" are silent on this ... well, I am a practicing Christian, though I don't think I am particularly right wing, and it is my opinion that this man has turned to evil, and listened to the influences of hatred and self centered world view advocated by the devil, not the selfless world view advocated by Christ.
I would guess that the idiotic post you're referring to was simply mimicking the idiotic posts that asked why Muslims supposedly weren't condemning some other terror attacks, when the vast majority of them do. It's funny how something seems idiotic when turned on its head to include you and yours, rather than some other group. Would you have called that post idiotic if it was aimed at Muslims? Be honest.

If he claims to have done this in God's name, which I don't quite see explicitly, (even though he makes some reference to being a Knight Templar -- huh????) in his manifesto, then he is violating three commandments at least:

"Thou shalt not take the name of thy Lord God in vain" (claiming to be the agent of God, falsely)
"thou shalt not bear false witness" (lying about why you are doing this)
"Thou shalt not kill (murder, per above)" (well, it is murder)
If the 9/11 attackers claimed to carry out their attacks in the name of Islam then they're violating many passages in the Koran that most Muslims hold dear. For example, that saving one life is like saving the whole world or that killing one innocent person is like destroying the whole universe. I am ready to absolve Christianity of responsibility for this, but my guess is you're not willing to afford the same kindness to your Muslim brethren regarding 9/11, if you are then good for you.

I am sure the non-Christians here would love to quibble about that.
That's a pretty huge presumption, seeing as absolutely nobody on this thread has blamed Christianity for this atrocity. The anti-Muslim brigade were here earlier in the thread licking their lips ready for yet another round of Muslim-bashing on PPRuNe, and now that it turns out it was an anti-Muslim online commentator who carried out these atrocities, they're nowhere to be found. Their silence is deafening.

I'm sorry if you're feeling like you're getting a taste of what over a billion innocent Muslims experienced after 9/11. It's not pleasant is it?

And if you're going to say but Christianity is not Islam, and then quote some hateful passages from the Koran and some loving passages from the Bible, please don't waste your time. There are plenty of hateful and loving passages in both books. It's the reader that makes the decision what they're going to believe. No two Christians are alike, and neither are any two Muslims. That's one of many reasons why I'm an agnostic, I don't want to be labelled or have a template for my beliefs, nor do I think that's healthy. Thankfully I live in a society where a whopping 60% of people would call themselves agnostic/atheist.

Peace be on you (a Muslim greeting).


Some comic relief: Colbert Report: Norwegian Muslish Gunman's Islam-Esque Atrocity (http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/393042/july-25-2011/norwegian-muslish-gunman-s-islam-esque-atrocity?xrs=share_fb)


Disclaimer: No offense was intended by any of the above, just trying to foster some understanding for what innocent Muslims have had to deal with, and to reduce the kind of anti-Muslim rhetoric that the terrorist under discussion would have enjoyed. Getting Christians to understand seems to be the first step.

rh200
27th Jul 2011, 04:23
That's a pretty huge presumption, seeing as absolutely nobody on this thread has blamed Christianity for this atrocity.

Would have thought because I got the impression it was more of a anti immigration, anti scocialism type of thing. Bit of a general anti left statement.

chuks
27th Jul 2011, 08:50
According to today's German papers the killer's lawyer is going for an insanity defense. If that succeeds then his client should be locked away for long time, although in the fullness of time he will probably be re-socialized once he persuades the experts that he no longer feels the urge to commit mass murder.

Here in Germany we have some ex-Red Army Faction (RAF) terrorists living among the citizens they once tried to kill but I suppose it is so that killers have rights too, once they have promised not to do that any more (unless they feel like it). Of course the families of their victims do seem to feel a certain amount of resentment about this but they probably lack some understanding of what the larger issues are.

The last similar case we had, those two fellows who were cruising around shooting folks piece-meal in the Washington area, saw an unseemly tug-of-war between different jurisdictions wanting to try them, with the winner being the one with the right to kill them. Norway seems to be dealing with this in a much different way, as if to say that killing people as punishment for killing people might not make a lot of sense.

tony draper
27th Jul 2011, 09:02
Yer but the drop prevented the endless appeals by these creatures we suffer in the UK.

sitigeltfel
27th Jul 2011, 09:14
Here in Germany we have some ex-Red Army Faction (RAF) terrorists living among the citizens they once tried to kill but I suppose it is so that killers have rights too, once they have promised not to do that any more (unless they feel like it). Of course the families of their victims do seem to feel a certain amount of resentment about this but they probably lack some understanding of what the larger issues are.

The lawmakers do not seems to give a monkeys about the rights of the victims, past and potential. They appear to have more empathy with the criminals. Lawyers make a fortune in legal aid from them, dragging cases out through appeal courts at taxpayers expense, so it is hardly surprising.

LN-KGL
27th Jul 2011, 10:53
BarbiesBoyfriend, you need to check your "facts". Norway did not take part in the war in Iraq. The main reason for this was the fact that there was not UN resolution sactioning this war. No need to mention that for both Afghanistan and Libya there exists UN resolutions that sanction a war.

Keef
27th Jul 2011, 11:01
What happened is horribly sad, depressing, and painful to all right-thinking people. But changing laws to deal with one nutcase is likely to end up with bad law.

Constant vigilance, and the recognition that there are nutcases out there, seems the right way to me.

If this man claims to be a Christian, he fails the test on several counts - as others have mentioned above.

Lonewolf_50
27th Jul 2011, 16:12
Pan, your response is both condescending and insulting. Your disclaimer comes off as dishonest.

Won't bother with further comment.

Will be happy to see you regarding another topic.
The lawmakers do not seems to give a monkeys about the rights of the victims, past and potential. They appear to have more empathy with the criminals. Lawyers make a fortune in legal aid from them, dragging cases out through appeal courts at taxpayers expense, so it is hardly surprising.
I've noticed that this seems common in the US as well.

While I am not surprised that this killer's team will try the insanity defense, I will once again point out that I have never accepted the logic, nor the rational, as that being a defense for criminal activity. You commit the crime, you commit the crime.

Now, if you want to present the insanity or reduced capacity as reason for mitigation in the sentencing or treatment, or to suggest alternative treatments or novel sentences that address reduced capacity, perhaps.

But for capital crimes, I see no reason to allow such a defense.

I don't care if you are crazy. If you took that chainsaw and cut those people up, you ought to be pig feed next week, or flower food. If you did as this numbskull did, and both blew up a great public building, and then set forth to kill dozens of other people's teenaged children, on purpose, then I see no reason to care if you are nuts or not.

If Norway won't put him to death, OK, I get that isn't your style, but I see no reason to allow such a defense. It's irrelevant if he's crazy or not.

chuks
27th Jul 2011, 16:54
I think most Western countries do have insanity as a defense. Here in Germany it can even come down to being so drunk that you have lost your self-control, even in cases of vehicular homicide.

I suppose the lawyer will feel professionally obliged to use whatever defense he thinks best for his client. Let us wait and see what happens in court instead of trying the case here.

Henry09
27th Jul 2011, 17:03
Isn't the drive behind the defence here though that the 21 year maximum penalty will not apply. If the defence of insanity is accepted then this particular man is unlikely to ever see freedom for the rest of his days. Anyone know different?

G-CPTN
27th Jul 2011, 17:11
I suspect that the lawyer chosen by the suspect is suggesting the insanity defence because he is unable to see any alternative justification for the suspect's actions (and claims).

He (the lawyer) has said that his client sees himself as being in a war, and that we will all see the sense of his (the suspect's) actions in 60 years time.
Edited to add that the above sentence contains the claims of the suspect and not the opinion of the lawyer (who deduced that his client must, therefore, be insane).

Rivers of Blood speech (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivers_of_Blood_speech) anyone?

PanPanYourself
27th Jul 2011, 17:33
Lonewolf_50, please elaborate, what about my comment was insulting? It was my honest opinion, and it was not intended to offend.

Christians are quick to absolve themselves of responsibility for this atrocity, and rightly so, I don't blame them for it. However, many Christians on here will not absolve Muslims of responsibility for 9/11, they will blame Islam, all of Islam, and they've done this repeatedly. I did not blame you for this, I asked you if you were one of those people, an honest question.

Bin Laden was NOT a Muslim. Will you grant that? If not, then I'm offended too. I'm not a Muslim but I have/had Muslim family members.

If people keep defending Christianity while ignoring anti-Islamic comments, then such bigotry and hatred will continue. That's all I'm saying, so I hope we can agree on that at least.

Regarding your comment on capital punishment, I think death is too good a punishment for this scumbag. I understand that you believe in heaven and hell, but I, like many Norwegians, don't. Death would just be sweet release from the miserable existence he's going to have henceforth.

Lonewolf_50
27th Jul 2011, 18:08
Chuks:

I think most Western countries do have insanity as a defense.
Just because a lot of people have a stupid idea does not make it a good one. Argumentum ad populum isn't cutting it on that score. ;)

Look at what I said: if you did the act, you have to answer for it. If you are shown to be of diminished capacity, I can see efforts to mitigate punishment for minor crimes. I do not see any reason to mitigate for capital crimes. The dead cannot be mitigated back to life, nor can they become whole, nor can the learn to forgive he who attacked them. They either feed the flowers, or sing with the angels, or whatever you think happens after life. Accountability for that being excused by a flimsy excuse of insanity, particularly temporary insanity, is one of the silliest developments of "Western" law and jurisprudence to date. I blame it on taking originally rationa altruism and extending it to an illogical conclusion.

Pan:
Please, read your last line in that riposte. I note the attempt to slide in the blade.

Look, Pan, I really don't want to get into a hairball with you.

You chose to argue about something I didn't say, nor positions I hold, and you then try to hold me accountable for others thoughts, words, and actions. That's a bit like dragging a strawman into the room and setting it on fire, then blaming me for the heat.

"Be honest."

Honestly, I think that demanding that some right wing Christian (whatever the hell that is) pop into these forums to defend this yahoo, or stage a sit in and proclaim something on his behalf, or whatever, is both a dishonest tactic, and idiotic, so I commented appropriately. You appear to have a case of the ass about Christians. I leave you to consider why you hold the stereotypes you do.

I don't care if people who have a case of the ass about Muslims demand that Muslims of all sorts answer for Muslims who choose to bring Jihad to the west via terror attacks -- that isn't my MO. It's also an unreasonable demand. What I'd rather see is people not going overboard to pretend that other Muslims can't act as cover, or a fig leaf. Not all do, most would probably like to left out of the whole mess, but some do.

Life's a messy business.

In this conversation, try to remember that you are not addressing whatever stereotype of Christians you hold. You are talking to me. Your attempt at pigeon holing is less than cordial, and to my eye insulting. If I overstate, so be it.

Pan, we are not making progress. Let's part on this with the promise of a pint and a grin in the next thread we share. :ok:

PanPanYourself
27th Jul 2011, 18:17
You're right lonewolf, my post wasn't fair on you. I apologize for jumping to conclusions.

Let's part on this with the promise of a pint and a grin in the next thread we share.
Yessir, I'll look forward to it.

Lonewolf_50
27th Jul 2011, 18:21
Cheers, and if I over reacted, please accept a mea culpa. :)

Neptunus Rex
27th Jul 2011, 21:33
This was the most outrageous criminal act in Europe since the end of WW II, and is rightly condemned by all fair-minded people.

Terrorism, whatever its ilk, must be countered world wide,.

vee-tail-1
27th Jul 2011, 23:11
There does seem to be a common thread running in all the European countries that have recently experienced civil unrest & violence.
First a left leaning liberal government comes to power. Then that government for idiological reasons lets in large numbers of mainly Muslim non European immigrants. The Muslims do their thing, and soon the inner cities become rapidly growing foreign ghettos complete with mosques. Many ordinary people of the host country complain about the threat to their culture, values, and way of life. But they are branded as racists and islamophobics by the liberal left elite. A poisonous situation develops where most people distrust their government and many hate the immigrants. This Norwegian nutter seems to have targeted the liberal lefties, but he might just as well have turned his guns on the Muslims.
What is it about liberals, why do they constantly fail to protect their own people and their own democracies?

Henry09
27th Jul 2011, 23:50
Neptunus

Perhaps the good citizens of Norway will now reconsider their Government's erroneous and continued support for one of the world's most heinous terrorist organisations, the Tamil Tigers, who in one incident, massacred over five hundred Sri Lankan policemen who had laid down their arms and surrendered.


What a completely random comment!

parabellum
28th Jul 2011, 00:11
If an insanity plea is accepted and he is confined to a secure institute, instead of a prison, for the rest of his life, it will probably save his life and this insanity plea may be no more than a shrewd move at self preservation.

I wouldn't fancy his chances of staying alive very long if he finished up in a high security prison among all the other 'lifers'.

Load Toad
28th Jul 2011, 03:00
There does seem to be a common thread running in all the European countries that have recently experienced civil unrest & violence.
First a left leaning liberal government comes to power. Then that government for idiological reasons lets in large numbers of mainly Muslim non European immigrants. The Muslims do their thing, and soon the inner cities become rapidly growing foreign ghettos complete with mosques. Many ordinary people of the host country complain about the threat to their culture, values, and way of life. But they are branded as racists and islamophobics by the liberal left elite. A poisonous situation develops where most people distrust their government and many hate the immigrants. This Norwegian nutter seems to have targeted the liberal lefties, but he might just as well have turned his guns on the Muslims.
What is it about liberals, why do they constantly fail to protect their own people and their own democracies?

Strewth - a grade a EDL nobber on PPRUNE!

Effluent Man
28th Jul 2011, 10:42
If I may qualify my original post where I stated that it would have been a good idea to have ensured that he was not taken alive.I am instinctively against the death penalty for one reason:If you make a mistake you cannot go back.

Now in 80-90% of cases where proof is not absolute I would stand by my opposition to the death penalty.However where,as in this case,you are 100% certain I have no moral objection to it.

I also feel that in the case of this chap his detention,by necessity in solitary confinement,will actually be a worse punishment than having shot him at the scene,so I don't see it as in any way revenge.

I am not sure of the criteria for determining insanity,but it seems to me the fact that he did this demonstrates that he is mad.

Cheerio
28th Jul 2011, 10:46
Definitely a psychopath. But then aren't all mass murderers?

How to spot a psychopath | Jon Ronson | Books | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/may/21/jon-ronson-how-to-spot-a-psychopath)

Storminnorm
28th Jul 2011, 10:49
I think that the families of those killed by the bloke
should have a say in what is to become of him.

G-CPTN
28th Jul 2011, 11:05
The account of his 'arrest' said that as soon as he was challenged by the (proper) Police he laid down his weapons and moved well away from them and raised his hands in surrender.
It would have been difficult for the Police to have justified shooting him.
(I imagine that there would have been plenty of witnesses)

Airborne Aircrew
28th Jul 2011, 11:10
It would have been difficult for the Police to have justified shooting him.

Shoot him... He might have had a suicide vest... :E

LN-KGL
28th Jul 2011, 11:19
G-CPTN and Airborne Aircrew, he was only seconds away from being shot. According to insiders in the Delta force, he didn't comply with the instructions given at first (he didn't raise his arms over head and show his palms).

parabellum
28th Jul 2011, 12:28
(I imagine that there would have been plenty of witnesses)


Who would have welcomed a speedy end to his mayhem?

chuks
28th Jul 2011, 13:15
If you go to the BBC News website you can see an interview with a Norwegian policeman who was part of the team which captured the gunman. He said that it was a normal arrest, that they found the man in a clearing with his hands raised and his weapons some distance away.

Storminnorm
28th Jul 2011, 13:42
That kind of proves that he wasn't mad then, doesn't it?

Effluent Man
28th Jul 2011, 13:50
Like I said it depends on your criteria.He obviously saw having a trial as a way of putting forward his views.Declaring him nuts might be the best option now.

G-CPTN
28th Jul 2011, 14:01
If he was declared 'unfit to plead' then he wouldn't get his day in court and the opportunity to declare his beliefs.

chuks
28th Jul 2011, 16:06
I suppose that he could fire his attorney and conduct his own defense if he really wants to speak up.

If he really thought that what he did was going to spark off some sort of anti-Muslim crusade, well, that is crazy! Then there was the way he seemed to expect to be allowed to don his pretend uniform and make a speech in court instead of just being hustled off to a nice, quiet isolation cell. It should be interesting to read what the two psychologists make of him.

Little cloud
28th Jul 2011, 21:08
chuks, this extract from Octopussy2's post 194 probably anticipates, in plain English, what their findings will be:

My impression of the murderer is of someone whose emotional development didn't progress much beyond 15 or 16 years old, who has joined a "movement" that allowed him to live a fantasy life, the notions of being a "knight", the dressing up, the feeling part of something, coupled with a child's inability to empathise (ie. to really understand the enormity of what he has done, to realise he's killing fellow human beings and what that actually means). In other words, another example of how vulnerable human beings can be radicalised by those with an agenda of evil. Possibly all this in reaction to some actual/perceived hurt/disengagement in his childhood.

G-CPTN
28th Jul 2011, 21:10
So are you blaming the Freemasons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar)?http://www.qtl.co.il/img/trans.png

Juud
30th Jul 2011, 20:46
I do not know if this gets airtime/printing ink/bandwith outside Norway.
Posting it on the book and here, because I really want my JB friends see/read it as well:
The first burial of terror vicitims today (http://ivarflaten.wordpress.com/2011/07/29/the-first-burial-of-terror-vicitims-today/)



The funeral procession was led by the reverend Anne Marit Tronvik and Senaid Kobilica, president of the Islamic Council Norway.

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x372/Juud81/Picture3-3.png