Koreanair A380 tail strike NRT

[Keylime]

Rumor of KAL tail strike/engine contact in NRT on 21 July. Anyone validate the rumor?

[Yobbo]

Kleons flying the aircraft?

[B737NG]

I am sorry to hear that the close call comes closer. About 3 years ago a bankend landing with cross wind in a B777-200ER, less then two years ago a 1.000ft tail scrape on landing with a B777-300, a while later a Kangeroo style landing at NRT in the same type. Now the shiny new A380..... outch. But if you look into the Far-East you will see a discussion that KAL-Pilots want to get rid of many ExPats as possible, maybe safer for them to be away.....

[Hotel Tango]

You may be jumping the gun there B737NG. Do you know for sure it wasn't an ex-pat flying this A380?

[japanam]

Yeah, it's true.

Japanese news showed the actual aircraft, an A380, which showed signs of scratching damage on engine No. 4 during the post flight inspection. It didn't show the actual damage so I don't know the extent. However, the same news also reported that the damage was determined to be limited, and the aircraft flew back as scheduled with pax.

[misd-agin]

Anyone know the bank angle required to drag the outboard engines?

[ARNSpoty]

RJAA 130400Z 22019KT 9999 FEW030 BKN/// 32/21 Q1006 WS R16L BECMG 22020G32KT RMK 1CU030 A2971
RJAA 130330Z 22017G32KT 180V250 9999 FEW030 BKN/// 32/22 Q1006 WS R16R WS R16L NOSIG RMK 1CU030 A2973

Weather did not look to stable.

[B737NG]

You may be jumping the gun there B737NG. Do you know for sure it wasn't an ex-pat flying this A380?

I know that there where no Expats in TLS for the initial training. There where also a significant number of Pilots sent back to Seoul as unsuitable (Airbus voice) to train for the A380 as there was: Lack of knowledge of the Airbus product and the language barrier.

The only non Korean you find at the moment in that Airplanes are Airbus Instructors sitting as monitoring Cockpit members either right or back seat.

Now trust me, you have not even the tip of the Iceberg here......

[cheapendale]

KE701 came in and scratched the base of its engine at while landing at Narita. Airport closed for 20min to inspect the runway, no problems found, aircraft cleared to depart back to Seoul

Good on the NRT airport authorities to check on FODs. About 6 or 7 years ago, a KAL B744 pranged the engine on landing and the skipper kept quiet about it after the walkaround for the return flight hoping that it will be foisted onto the next unfortunate guy! Unfortunately this piece of work was an expat!

[bcflyer]

"RJAA 130400Z 22019KT 9999 FEW030 BKN/// 32/21 Q1006 WS R16L BECMG 22020G32KT RMK 1CU030 A2971
RJAA 130330Z 22017G32KT 180V250 9999 FEW030 BKN/// 32/22 Q1006 WS R16R WS R16L NOSIG RMK 1CU030 A2973

Weather did not look to stable."
12-15kt gusts are hardly enough to call the weather unstable. If you can't handle that kind of wind you have no business sitting in the cockpit of any commercial jet.

[B-HVY]

Incident: Korean A388 at Tokyo on Jul 21st 2011, engine pod strike (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4400bee5&opt=1)

picture on the same page:
http://avherald.com/img/korean_air_a388_hl7611_tokyo_110721_1.jpg

[golfyankeesierra]

RJAA 130400Z 22019KT 9999 FEW030 BKN/// 32/21 Q1006 WS R16L BECMG 22020G32KT RMK 1CU030 A2971
12-15kt gusts are hardly enough to call the weather unstable
No, but windshear tends to destabilise a bit.. :rolleyes:

[asc12]

Anyone know the bank angle required to drag the outboard engines?


...quite a bit. :ooh:

[DJ77]

Someone know the max crosswind for this baby ?

[atakacs]

wow - looking at the picture linked above it wasn't a smooth landing...

[PACIFIC BARON]

Airbusses in general don't like gusty or turbulent conditions & can be testing at times. Autothrust can be all over the place & if the crew had minimum time on type would find it particularly challenging. The max crosswind for landing on the A380 is 40 knots.

[172_driver]

RJAA 130330Z 22017G32KT 180V250 9999 FEW030 BKN/// 32/22 Q1006 WS R16R WS R16L NOSIG RMK 1CU030 A2973

12-15kt gusts are hardly enough to call the weather unstable. If you can't handle that kind of wind you have no business sitting in the cockpit of any commercial jet.

How's reading the full METAR? I can see crosswind components ranging from 5 to 30 kts.

[bcflyer]

Quote:
12-15kt gusts are hardly enough to call the weather unstable. If you can't handle that kind of wind you have no business sitting in the cockpit of any commercial jet.

How's reading the full METAR? I can see crosswind components ranging from 5 to 30 kts.

How about reading my post. I clearly said GUST'S. Steady winds up to the max certified should be no problem to a pilot with any kind of hand and feet skills.

[HighSpeedAluminum]

bcflyer....IMO, your statement is armchair quarterbacking at best. Have you been into NRT (or similar windshear susceptible airports) under these conditions with little or no time on the aircraft you are piloting?...windshear is felt right through the flare here. It requires considerable skills and as it appears beyond the capabilty of this crew. There are aircraft (xwind) limits and company limts. This approach is not as simple as you make it sound.

[OBNO]

X-wind landing limit for A380 is 40kts.

[Dogslay]

I have over 30 years flying internationally and yesterdays conditions were the worst I have experienced in all my flying years when aircraft or still carrying out approach and landings. That was around 8am local. Don't know when Korean made their approach. The wind when we landed was 040/22gusting37 with windshear on approach sometimes up to +-45kts. This was all caused by the passing typhoon.

[captjns]

Hey... blame it on the expat:}! I don't think the jet had it's first oil change or it`s first free 10,000 mile dealer check yet.

But on a serious note, good news that no smoking hole was left in this incident. After inspections the aircraft resumed service.

[aterpster]

OBNO:

X-wind landing limit for A380 is 40kts.

That is an impressive x-wind limit. Does that require a properly timed decrab so the wings are pretty much level at touchdown?

[All-Ex]

aterpster:
watch this
http://youtu.be/i5pGlw4o3Ks

[carib man]

I landed in NRT on the 21. The conditions were very chalenging. I have 18000+hrs and have flown Boeing, Douglas, Lockheed, and now Airbus. It was possibly the most difficult landing I have ever done. I am not supprised that someone touched a pod.

The met report does not do justice to the gusting cross wind conditions.

[HighSpeedAluminum]

Here is what happens when Airbus test pilots don't get it right, and no windshear? Wings were level mind you. I don't know the previous experience of the crew in NRT (possibly little Airbus time) but in yesterdays conditions that place is a handful for even the most experienced pilot. Youtube search NRT windshear approaches if you require further evidence.

‪Airbus A380 Hard Landing At Oshkosh 2009‬‏ - YouTube

[hetfield]

Don't know A380, but 320 family, for my opinion, was kind of nasty @ strong gusts.
‪Tap quase se acidente com ventos fortes‬‏ - YouTube

[jumbojet]

I can picture it & hear the conversation!

During approach, precise Thrust,drift &power settings calculated according to ATIS, regardless of reality.

Flare height calculated, according KAL SOP & not AB (or Boe FCTM)

Last 4 miles; Lots of "oh, oh, oh, & much sucking thru teeth!

Main Gear Touchdown. before nose on deck FO into FMGS/FMS to look at touchdown "G" reading & max Roll value.

PF, now major sucking thru teeth, followed by statment " But I flared at the correct height with correct pitch/drift! Must be the AA TEE I SS is wrong.

VERY STRANGE CAPTAIN!! more sucking noises.

:ugh:

[Vel Paar]

Don't be too quick on the draw gentlemen......according to NRT ground staff there was an Airbus instructor onboard the flight with 2 other Koreans. So it remains to be seen if the Airbus guy was on the jumpseat or on one of the pilot seats.

[fl380]

Who will train an expat on 380 in KAL? No way! Like Indians, but let them to go for the limits..I`m waiting the 787 with Maharajas on the seats...:bored:

[aterpster]

All-Ex:

Thanks for that. As I would have thought.

[aguadalte]

All-ex:
Strong steady cross wind landings are normally a "piece of cake" in any heavy aircraft and fun to do, also. Gusty, windshear approaches with an aircraft low in weight, are something different.

Regarding the video of those take-off and landing demonstrations on the A380, please take a look at the first take-off and special attention to the number one engine during rotation at time 00:32s and you will see a close call for an engine strike, with an airbus pilot at the controls...

Regarding the fact that an Airbus TRI was on board, I don't think he may have been able to do anything but call for an overshoot.
In the avherald photo Incident: Korean A388 at Tokyo on Jul 21st 2011, engine pod strike (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4400bee5&opt=1), one may see that a wrong technique was used: the aircraft landed on the left side of the runway centerline, left rudder and too much [obvious] right wing down, were used maybe in an attempt to bring it to the centerline...
An overshoot would have been the best chance to avoid any dual input on the side sticks. The fact that side sticks don't give PNF any feedbacks of what PF is really doing makes the role of PNF a very hard one...

[bearfoil]

With an a/c of that size, that light, perhaps a dirigible rating?

[aguadalte]

With an a/c of that size, that light, perhaps a dirigible rating?

You're probably right bearfoil, from my experience with A340 and A330's they do behave like a balloon, when so light.:hmm:

[bcflyer]

Good lord you guys. I post that pilots should be able to fly their A/C up to the crosswind limit published (Heaven forbid they are able to hand fly their aircraft. GASP!) and I get accused of armchair quarterbacking? I don't think thats an unreasonable expectation. If the conditions were above their skill level then they shouldn't have been attempting to land.

I have flown into many many airports that are nasty for windshear (some very mountainous airports with winds from all directions and W/S that is felt right to the flare.) so I do have experience with these types of conditions.

[Rollingthunder]

Who is operating an A380 in total white livery? Or photo-manipulation?

Anyway interesting for the sideways aircraft.

[ImbracableCrunk]

Main Gear Touchdown. before nose on deck FO into FMGS/FMS to look at touchdown "G" reading & max Roll value.

Sad but likely close to true. Do you really need a piece of paper to tell you your landings are crooked and off center?

[autoflight]

Go-around is a 4 letter word in some parts of the world. In some other areas where it is not, missed approach is.

[Namor]

Some facts gleaned from the 7th & 8th floor :

1) it was a nasty day at NRT with variable turbulent gusts of crosswinds

2) there was an airbus instructor onboard

Mum is the word regarding who was the PF. One of the Koreans was only cleared on line about 4 weeks ago.

[Flying Bagel]

You know, when an experienced set of MD-11 crew can get themselves killed in similar conditions at NRT, I find that a podstrike in this circumstance is not totally out of the ordinary.

It's very nasty in typhoon conditions at NRT, more so than most other airports I fly to (mountainous or not). If you haven't experienced it, you have absolutely no right in being judgemental here.

[35YearPilot]

0 p / 6.4 r Inner Engine Scrape
3 p / 7.1 r Outer Engine Scrape
7.7 p / 7.4 r Wing Tip Scrape
12. 6 p / 5.3 r Rear Fuselage Scrape
11.5 p / 0 r Rear Fuselage Scrape (oleo comp)
13.5 p / 0 r Rear Fuselage Scrape (oleo ext)

So they needed >= 7.1 deg Roll

(Ref A380 FCTM)

[Oakape]

To get #4 onto the runway like that, he was a long way left of the centreline.

Perhaps it wasn't so much a case of too much wing down, as it was a case of not being properly aligned with the runway. Similar to the pod scrapes that we have seen at the old Hong Kong with guys trying to align with the centreline when it was much too late & they should have been going around, but not for the same reason.

[fatbus]

Put it this way - all the pax were very lucky to walk away THIS time.

[HighSpeedAluminum]

"If you haven't experienced it, you have absolutely no right in being judgemental here."

:D I couldn't agree more Bagel...quick to judge is reserved for the foolhardy.

I have had a very similar experience in NRT and it is not quite as simple as some on here would have people believe.

Hindsight is 20/20......it's easy to sit at a computer and punch out

"If the conditions were above their skill level then they shouldn't have been attempting to land."

...but for the grace of God go I gents!

[aguadalte]

If you haven't experienced it, you have absolutely no right in being judgemental here.

Does more than 20 years experience in Funchal (in the old 1350m 04/24 Rwy and the new 05/23, but now with heavy aircraft), count? Does LPHR, LPPI, count?

I'm sure waiting for your approval to continue posting my personal point of views...

[HighSpeedAluminum]

hey "fill yer boots"....

Balanced, objective and non-judgemental points of view please.

[bearfoil]

Had there been an instructor on the flightdeck, wouldn't it be rather more likely a small incident may happen? It infers the presence of a low time trainee, or low experience on type.

I am always baffled by the innuendo on these threads. It is a rumours thread after all, but why stop short? Why not expand on the inference being made. Is the "Tut-Tut" the objective? It a) either kills the thread outright, or b) sends it off into the weeds of "personality"?

tut tut?

[White Knight]

Rudder being used - but from the pic I don't see much evidence of roll control at all! No roll spoilers and no aileron:rolleyes:

[bearfoil]

You might be looking at the wrong wing? Wouldn't devices be deployed on the port wing at this stage? Hopefully some left (counter roll)? Spoilers and ailerons down on the right wing? (hence not visible?)

[aa73]

So if the auto throttle is all over the place in gusty conditions, just turn it off and fly manually??!! Otherwise the thrust is forward, back, forward, back... drives everyone crazy! Turn it off and manually set it. Flying skills, never a lost art!

[Ace Springbok]

KAL frowns badly on any pilot innovation not to use the autothrust. Their punishment culture puts fear in anyone deviating from SOP of maximizing use of automation. I've seen instructor management pilots who I had to fly with ( during the pilots' strike of 2001 and 2003 ) ashen face with morbid fear that we had committed a severe violation of SOP when I prevented the autothrottle from retarding the thrust levers which led to an EICAS caution message during an approach in extremely gusty conditions. It took much explaining to convince them that it was an absolutely " non - event " and they kept telling me that I had to put in an ASR!:ugh:

The fact that someone stated an Airbus instructor pilot was onboard HAS COOLED DOWN ALL THE INSINUATIONS AND INNUENDOES. Sad but true; a lot of armchair pilots and inexperienced fools think that landing in gusty, turbulent crosswinds in NRT is a piece of cake. I have seen one airplane coming to an easy landing but the next one coming 2 minutes later struggling......the sudden changes can be really challenging; inexperienced watchers think the second one must have been flown by a novice!

[re-checked]

Is that related?


http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/285267_10150316821944524_747409523_9589519_4224220_n.jpg

[billabongbill]

I agree totally withFlying Bagel, HighSpeedAluminum and Ace Springbok wrt to gusty crosswind landings. We can easily see a lot of bull**** con artists posting the bs here. No doubt KAL has quite a colourful history, but let's be fair and unprejudiced. Ace hit it right on, the fact that they had an Airbus Instructor onboard certainly curtailed a lot of racially charged innuendoes to be lobbed over in this thread.

re-checked; it's definitely related.

[SpaceNeedle]

Them sympathies and commiserations to the two locals on that flight! From what I know the present Flight Ops MVP has a very punishment oriented philosophy; this incident could well be a career ending or at the very least career stalling one in KAL.

When are they going to learn that cookbook flying will only get them past the novice stage; i am sure they want to get beyond that!

[guiones]

Oshkosh was not a hard landing as per PFR.

[main_dog]

While by no means an "old Narita hand", I have been there maybe 15/20 times, and can most definitely confirm it's a place to watch out for in windy conditions. I can't fathom why (no obvious terrain/obstacles) but every time I've been there I've noticed significantly more turbulence/windshear than you would normally expect from the reported wind.

Armchair condemnation is easy and fun, but the truth is, no matter how good you are (or think you are), in a large transport aircraft events can -and eventually will- conspire to humble you. Don't forget, as a previous poster wrote, that "there but for the grace of God go I". :ouch:

Fly safe, work hard at your craft, and be lucky.

[grimmrad]

@ Rollingthunder

No livery = test flights from Airbus with first build aircrafts for the certifications, required by multiple authorities (e.g. FAA) and I assume also the manufacturer to learn about ac behavior in various conditions.

[polochristo]

Quote:
KE701 came in and scratched the base of its engine at while landing at Narita. Airport closed for 20min to inspect the runway, no problems found, aircraft cleared to depart back to Seoul
Good on the NRT airport authorities to check on FODs. About 6 or 7 years ago, a KAL B744 pranged the engine on landing and the skipper kept quiet about it after the walkaround for the return flight hoping that it will be foisted onto the next unfortunate guy! Unfortunately this piece of work was an expat!


Gee, that's bordering on the criminal! Remember AF Concorde came to grief after tire damaged by FOD fallen from a DC-10. If an engine pod contacted the runway surface, God knows what could have been scraped off or fallen off only to become a killer hazard for others. Can believe such behaviour! Maybe the punishment culture led to this.

[Sunny Boyle]

Certainly bordering on the criminal. According to some ex-colleagues of the offender, he wasn't reported to the authorities eventhough KAL found out about the incident when the aircraft returned to Seoul whereby another outbound crew found the damage. They retrieved the QAR recordings and found the culprit. He was grounded for a couple of weeks, sent for ground debriefing and had a couple of simulator sessions before released back on line. It was done hush hush by KAL in house without the KCASA or JCAB alerted as that would probably incur a huge fine for the airline. All well and fine for that miscreant and his airline. HOWEVER A HUGE HAZARD for other operators who ran the risk of hitting any FOD resulting from the engine pod prang leading to something fatally damaging! He must be well protected by some higher ups for the company to risk that!

[alph2z]

Video.

A lot of smoke before main gear permanently on ground but not sure if it's from LG, ENG 3 or 4, or doubtfully the R wingtip.

‪A380 scrapes engine during landing at Narita‬‏ - YouTube
.

[nicholas.nickle]

Wow; 2 KAL engine pod contact incidents and some real funny videos on the B777 kangaroo landings at NRT. Looks like NRT will be a place to avoid for the Koreans. I heard they had a B777 heavy tail strike not too long ago too.

Coming back to the earlier engine pod strike, was that a B777 or B747? From an earlier post it seem that it was an expat, not a loca...can anyone confirm that. If it's an expat then the expats too had their fair share of boo boos too. I heard that one expat was summarily sacked after some botched non precision approach at ZSSS leading to near CFIT, another was sacked after loss of radio comm in China, and another after line check failure from an expat checker. A friend told me that these were only a few of the boo boos by expats; there were many others too. These, if true at all, certainly put paid to the notion that the expats are any better than the locals. Small wonder Mr/Mrs/Ms haejangkok and admiral shin make much of the riff raff thingy!

[haejangkuk]

2) there was an airbus instructor onboard

The fact that someone stated an Airbus instructor pilot was onboard HAS COOLED DOWN ALL THE INSINUATIONS AND INNUENDOES
I landed in NRT on the 21. The conditions were very chalenging. I have 18000+hrs and have flown Boeing, Douglas, Lockheed, and now Airbus. It was possibly the most difficult landing I have ever done. I am not supprised that someone touched a pod.

The met report does not do justice to the gusting cross wind conditions

Ace hit it right on, the fact that they had an Airbus Instructor onboard certainly curtailed a lot of racially charged innuendoes to be lobbed over in this thread.



Thank you to the very level headed, fair minded and brave individuals who dare to go against bigotry with their sensible and rational posts. We Koreans/Asians did not make any derogatory remarks or cast aspersions on the unfortunate Fed-Ex MD11 crew despite their level of experience vis-a-vis our newbies on the A380 who had the misfortune of encountering the nasty conditions on July 21. Neither did we celebrate the misfortunes of all the first world pilots who had come to grief in other unfortunate accidents or incidents. We have the human respect and professional courtesy of not wishing others ill in times of misfortune.

[fokker1000]

bcflyer,
Have you flown FBW? I'm guessing by the naivety of your posts that you haven't.:ugh:

[Sqwak7700]

Having flown with a pilot who quit KAL after only 3 months there, I don't think it has anything to do with Expat or Local. The culture there is wrong and that is what needs to be fixed.

CRM is non-existent and they still rely on the old "saving face" way of doing things. It is hard to believe in this day and age that we still have major airlines behaving like this, but I guess old habits die hard.

It strikes me as unusual that an aircraft with a pod strike can take-off again without a full teardown of the engine. Regardless of the visible damage, I thought they would at least do a thorough check of the wing structure and pylon before the aircraft is released into service again.

But I guess these questions will be answered when the full investigation is released... Oh yeah, that won't happen at KAL. :rolleyes:

[johnee26]

Korean Air as yet employ no expats on A380

[faiser]

Neither did we celebrate the misfortunes of all the first world pilots who had come to grief in other unfortunate accidents or incidents. We have the human respect and professional courtesy of not wishing others ill in times of misfortune.

You're saying what I wanted to say exactly. :ok:

[fatbus]

J26 , I think what you meant to say is that KAL has no expats on the 380 at this time.

[Samba Anaconda]

I can't agree with you more.
Quote:
Neither did we celebrate the misfortunes of all the first world pilots who had come to grief in other unfortunate accidents or incidents. We have the human respect and professional courtesy of not wishing others ill in times of misfortune.
You're saying what I wanted to say exactly. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Three cheers to that! It always irks me no end to see selfish fellas trying to run down others to further their agendas. Just see those miscreants trying to run down HKA on the fragrant harbour forum, with their misguided vindictiveness hoping to shatter the rice bowls of ALL the HKA employees.

[Telur Belacan]

Heard from someone in kimchiland it was it ended up with a skid mark on the #4 engine drain mast. I guessed the grease monkeys determined that there was no cause for alarm and off they went back to ICN.

Heard that someone big at Air Asia X who was formerly from KAL says that the company only want young Korean skippers on the A380; the older folks are almost untrainable for such high tech aircraft.

[lomapaseo]

Heard from someone in kimchiland it was it ended up with a skid mark on the #4 engine drain mast. I guessed the greased monkeys determined that there was no cause for alarm and off they went back to ICN.



probably only rubbed some blade tips in the compressors due to ovalization.

[mrdeux]

Well, as someone who currently flies the A380, but who has lots of time on both the 747 and the 767, plus numerous flights into Tokyo...I can say that I sympathise with the crew. The 380 is easily the worst aircraft that I've ever flown in gusty crosswinds.

[Roseland]

Does anyone think the change of Control Law (from Normal Flight Mode to Normal Ground Mode) could have played a part here, as in the Hamburg tip strike?

[SMOC]

probably only rubbed some blade tips in the compressors due to ovalization

Why, when only the drain mast got scraped.

[cheapendale]

Heard that someone big at Air Asia X who was formerly from KAL


Now who can that be except for that g string who pranged the 744 engine pod on the same flight no. KE 701 circa 2004/2005:=

The 380 is easily the worst aircraft that I've ever flown in gusty crosswinds.

The so called flight control laws that transitioned during flare from roll rate demand to direct surface deflection can become quite a handful I guess.

[KABOY]

An aeroplane strikes a pod and we defend the crew for the wx environment. I operate into all these ports in Asia and experience weather extremes. I operate the aircraft to its certified limit and walk away without filing a safety report.

The weather exceeds my aircraft limitations and I delay the the approach or conduct a missed approach. To use the weather as a reason for aircraft damage is an excuse for poor decision making and piloting skill.

I operate with pilots of Far East origin and the problem lies in the culture, something that has developed over 100's of years. Unfortunately this culture conflicts with the modern day flight deck.

[Count von Altibar]

I tend to agree with the above post, wise words. No wonder KAL need to dilute their pilot workforce with expats.

[Tank2Engine]

I operate with pilots of Far East origin and the problem lies in the culture, something that has developed over 100's of years. Unfortunately this culture conflicts with the modern day flight deck. What about JAL? Or ANA? Or Asiana? Or Singapore Airlines, or MAS, or Vietnam Airlines? Sure, these airlines had their share of incidents and accidents, but so have Air France, American Airlines, KLM etc.

Is it really a stand alone Asian culture problem or perhaps more of a company culture problem with KAL?

Give these guys a break, being new on type, gusty crosswinds (on a FBW Airbus!) on a challenging airport like NRT!

[Maisk Rotum]

This will definitely hasten the arrival of expats on the fleet.

They have blamed the pilot for his excessive use of rudders and sidestick causing increasing bank.

The most unsurprising aspect about it is the 'real' story that they have blamed the Airbus instructor who did not intervene and should have maintained control.

At low altitude in the flare it is virtually impossible for an instructor to correct such an unexpected adverse roll input but clearly a local instuctor would have been able to do so....mmmmm

So take that Airbus- KAL telling them they should have done better!!!!

[TWN PPL]

Maisk rotum, the almighty airbus 380 instructor is on the right seat. Who log as p.i.c for this flight? Therefore, you can never fault the commander for such mishap below 50'? This make my job as p.i.c as easy as pie. Unbelievable!

[Whinging Tinny]

Heard from someone in kimchiland it was it ended up with a skid mark on the #4 engine drain mast. I guessed the greased monkeys determined that there was no cause for alarm and off they went back to ICN.

So, Telur Belacan who are the 'greased monkeys' ?

The KAL ground engineers who were there, the Japanese engineers who were there, the Airbus field rep(s) who were there and inspected the aircraft.
Or the KAL flight crew?

Please let us know.

Yes, for info, it kissed the drain mast on #4 and the engine pod/cowls suffered no damage.

I suggest you have a close look at your English, as well.

[Popsiq]

Autoflight: "Go-around is a 4 letter word in some parts of the world. In some other areas where it is not, missed approach is."


I'd imagine that decorating a runway with debris from a stalwart effort would be a 'duck and cover' exercise for the fellows handing out demerits for an aborted landing.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif

[IGh]

ARC = Abnormal Rwy Contact (includes Rwy contact by tail, cowl, I/B Flap, hard Ldg, &ct)

A comment in message #45, dated July 23rd:"... Perhaps it wasn't so much a case of too much wing down, as it was a case of not being properly aligned with the runway ... trying to align with the centreline ... too late ... should have been going around ..."
ARC-Investigators, and even the ALAR Task Force, haven't yet sorted these "alignment" variables, nor gathered and labeled the various cases. Maybe pilots could provide investigators & FDM some guidance on taxonomy for those alignment variables. [Some of these ARC-investigations (employing professional investigators) have been disgraceful.]

Maybe the ALIGN task conflates two, or three, differing pilot tasks?

AutoLand guys might consider the "ALIGN" function as the late de-crab YAWing motion (to match HDG with Rwy so that yaw-angle at touchdown is zeroed).

Pilots also sometimes must manually "align" or correct to COURSE (or to centerline) after a non-precision approach, or after an autopilot deviation near DH. This is the lateral L-R motion, toward centerline (but not overshooting). For FDR/FOQA/FDM, data-guys would consider this "alignment" as zeroing FDR's Loc-Dev.

?? For long-body airliner, in stiff x-wind landing with a planned Crab Angle, the "align" task might include visual line-up near the up-wind rwy edge -- so as to insure MLG does touchdown on concrete (??).

This ALIGN task (sometimes withOUT x-wind), while too-low, was a factor in other ARC-mishaps. NTSB recently released this case, where the pilot attempted a more perfect ALIGNMENT nearing DH -- then his correction overshot Centerline, touchdown with LHS MLG in the grass: thus achieving both an ARC (RHS I/B Flap and RHS wing tip), and also logging a USOS (LHS MLG off rwy at touchdown): DCA10IA015 (http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20091214X41802&key=1)


There are three FDR plots available for the above mishap, AA-MD8 ARC, at 300' the Autopilot's tracking was a mere .28-dot Right, disconnected A/P, corrects, touched-down Loc-Dev shows .28-dot Left (photo evidence records that touchdown about on the Rwy's left Edge Line at 8000+ remaining, or 75' left of centerline), with the LHS MLG in the sod, just after the RHS Wingtip & RHS I/B Flap had contacted Rwy. [Interesting that Loc-Dev never exceeded the airline's one-third Dot triggering the "Go Around" call-out from a perfect FO-PM.]


Another example of L-R course correction inducing an ARC-wingtip was

ANC06IA054 (http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20060522X00596&key=1)"... I pointed out runway 19R. While maneuvering to line up on the runway, we overshot...."
One investigator related that he considered this mishap as more of a Go-Around ARC (Turbojet's spool-up delay?), since the pilots had initiated G/A prior to the wingtip-ARC.

More recently, during strong x-wind at NYC's KLGA, there was an ARC-Wingtip, after a displaced-final approach course, correction to centerline, x-wind; this also maybe more of a G/A phase wingtip-ARC (turbojet's spool-up time-delay?):
AA366 / 5May11 LGA MD83 N966TW Lndg-GoAround ARC- wing-tip
http://www.faa.gov/data_research/accident_incident/preliminary_data/media/D_0506_N.txt

= = = = = = =

Another common ARC-result has been that the mishap-pilots were completely unaware that their landing had included any Abnormal Rwy Contact, or off-rwy touchdown. Thus, occasionally, the ARC-mishap wasn't recognized by the humans, nor recorded in the aircraft logbook. Extreme examples of this ALA- lack of recognition (really more of a task-fixation) are available, eg, on 26Aug64 a B707-331 N787TW landing mishap at Kansas City MKC , where both MLG impacted the dike just prior to the Rwy Threshold -- pilots were not aware that the MLG had separated from the aircraft prior to their landing on the Rwy36, pilots were slow to realize that the airliner couldn't roll during attempted taxi.

= == = = = = = = = = = == = =

A380 limit geometry (pitch & roll) , for ARC- #4 Engine, was cited in message #44:"... 3 p / 7.1 r -- Outer Engine Scrape ... Ref A380 FCTM ..."
Hmmm, A380's geometry-limited bank angle cited was 7.1 degrees of roll.
ALAR Briefing Note
8.7 — Crosswind Landings (http://flightsafety.org/files/alar_bn8-7-crosswind.pdf) [PDF 163K]
Figure 3 = plots of "Crab Angle / Bank Angle Requirement in 30-Knot Crosswind"
Read it yourself, 30Kt x-wind needs ~ 9degrees bank for a Zero Crab Angle at touchdown. Chart notes suggest mixing crab & bank for combination of 5degrees Bank with 5degrees Crab. [Therefore, the pilot would have a 2-degree margin of safety, is that enough?]

[Graybeard]

pilots were slow to realize that the airliner couldn't roll during attempted taxi.

Love it, Love it!

[Bumpfoh]

This lifted from the weekly in service summary from Airbus.

ATA 00 /78 – E ngine 4 drainmast damaged during landing
During landing, the engine #4 drainmast on the lower side of the nacelle contacted the runway. Aircraft landed safely and taxied to the gate normally.
At time of landing, crosswinds were reported, with gusts.
During post-flight inspection, the drain mast on engine #4 was found bent off-centre and scratched.
Drainmast was replaced. No findings from visual inspections per AMM Chapter 5. Analysis of LAT confirmed no additional inspections required.
The aircraft returned to service.
Investigation of this event is in progress.

Hopefully this satisfies any concerns about a perceived lack of required maintenance.:ok:

[totempole]

Has this anything to do with KAL's training policy that in crosswind landings, it is imperative that pilots decrab simultaneously during the flare. A great technique if one gets it right on the sweet spot but in gusty conditions not everyone is lucky to get it spot on. Botch it and it can land one in the hot soup. I have seen quite a number of close calls by people using this technique.

[IGh]

Question above:
"... KAL's training policy that in crosswind landings, it is imperative that pilots decrab simultaneously during the flare[?] ..."

Looking at the videos of the A380 flight tests, of their crosswind demonstration-landings, it seems as if each landing touchdown is done WINGS LEVEL, with no last-second yawing motion.

[Creedy Cat]

Flown the A380 for about 2 years; never met conditions like those described on July 21 at NRT. However had some fairly stiff crosswinds at LHR last summer; not much problem as you just pressure the downwind rudder to align the nose to runway centreline with hardly any need to input any aileron into the wind. This is the recommended technique; at least it's what I was taught in Toulouse. In really strong crosswinds close to the limit, Airbus allows landing with a slight crab with residual drift not more than 5 degrees.

The crew at NRT must have " kick "ed the downwind rudder and by force of habit, apply excessive upwind aileron input. At light weights and low speeds, such actions can induce undesirable oscillations. Can't blame them totally as they are pretty new on type and could have flown aircraft where simulator decrabbing during flare in strong crosswinds involved hefty upwind inputs. Sometimes certain simulator techniques can prove to be real disasters in real life flying!

Sorry, only handled the aircraft sporadically so I am by no means an A380 adept, only my 2 cents!

[Akali Dal]

[QUOTE][So, Telur Belacan who are the 'greased monkeys' ?

The KAL ground engineers who were there, the Japanese engineers who were there, the Airbus field rep(s) who were there and inspected the aircraft.
Or the KAL flight crew?

Please let us know.

Yes, for info, it kissed the drain mast on #4 and the engine pod/cowls suffered no damage.

I suggest you have a close look at your English, as well/QUOTE]

Over that part of the world they don't call them engineers but mechanics. Telur might not have it right like some anal retentive whinger as English is probably not his first language. I suggest that he suggest you take a chill pill and laxative too!

[Whinging Tinny]

Akali Dal, in reply:

Over that part of the world they don't call them engineers but mechanics. Telur might not have it right like some anal retentive whinger as English is probably not his first language. I suggest that he suggest you take a chill pill and laxative too! 28th Jul 2011 22:28

1. Your 'friend's' post sounded pretty rude and derogatory to me, calling Korea by an incorrect name, and appearing to allude to people from there as 'greased monkeys'.

2. Only place I've worked where people are called mechanics on a regular basis is
America and those working under the FAA system. Everywhere, I've been in the
Far East - engineers, technicians and mechanics (oil tippers and chock movers).

3. Chilled, I am. Supply me with enough Guinness and I'll quite happily expel the afters in your toilet.

[kinteafrokunta]

AD, give him enough guinness and you can get up his six in no time! What an invitation!:mad::ok:

[sawadeecarp]

Good on the NRT airport authorities to check on FODs. About 6 or 7 years ago, a KAL B744 pranged the engine on landing and the skipper kept quiet about it after the walkaround for the return flight hoping that it will be foisted onto the next unfortunate guy! Unfortunately this piece of work was an expat

This is what I gathered from KAL safety dept: the skipper calimed it was raining heavily during the transit for the turn round flight so he did not do the walkaround check! Also it was f/o's landing!

If those were true, really riff raff of an expat skipper for KAL.

[Kilda Ste Hilda]

Anybody care to amend the title of this thread? Maybe KAL #4 engine pod kiss on NRT runway; it's a major difference as against a tail strike.

[vaneyck]

Can't speak for the poster who came up with 'greased monkeys' (and I wouldn't want to anyway), but the expression 'grease monkey' is old American slang for 'mechanic'. It was usually used for car mechanics, though I suppose airplane mechanics may have borne the nickname too. It was mildly derogatory, without quite reaching the category 'fighting words'. 'Grease monkey' bore no racial or ethnic connotations whatever.

[B737NG]

It sounds like the fine art of the language that is certainly not spoken and understood East of the Ural and West of the Pacific.

The Orientals asking for tolerance towards them at all times and have no understanding that greasing get´s you further then friction. I expirience now for more then 10 years that. I heared briefings and introduction they sounded as a excuse to be present today. Guy´s told me that "Oriental Cockpit Culture" is diffrent from Western and they appologize for any missunderstanding that may arise as it is the first time they fly with a Foreigner in theire life.... My gosh when I heared that the first time I have been shocked down to the bones. Now no surprises anymore, even when I asked a F/O once what leg you want to fly, the question came wrong from my side: It was not the way he was used to because it was too early as his introduction phase was not finished. The answer was: I am married, have two Daughters and served twelve years in the Airforce. Thank you, no further question !

Now after all this time I am still wondering why some Guy´s feel still attacked if someone says something what they do not understand and want to misinterprete sentences for purpose?

Haejangkuk and Admiral Shin: Just a small note: We have just one World and not two or three, so if something happen somewhere it happens to the Aviation Community and not to only a part of it.

So what is the diffrence if there is a Airbus Oberserver / Instructor present of not? Crosswinds freaks the desk pilots out, they put all crab on crewlink and we have to read it and some people just won´t get it. You can train it 100 times in the SIM, real life makes it. CJU can be challenging as well on 06/24 approaches, NRT is not easy when winds are showing natures forces but afterall it needs to have the broad understanding of the complecity and that is the missing part with the FBN-method. FlyByNumber goes not along. Proven often enough, time to accept it.

Now I am on my last month, I do not want to do a runner, I do my time for my own dignety. It may not be honored and valued from People in the 7th / 8th Floor but that is not important for me. My own face in the mirror is what counts, selfish I got with that. I do not want to be named a riff raff of something else and I know who I am and what core values are as a human.

[faiser]

Now I am on my last month, I do not want to do a runner, I do my time for my own dignety. It may not be honored and valued from People in the 7th / 8th Floor but that is not important for me. My own face in the mirror is what counts, selfish I got with that. I do not want to be named a riff raff of something else and I know who I am and what core values are as a human
Dear, B737NG

I'm fully understood your frustraion as an Expat in Korean Air.
There are a lot of things that you are supposed to manage as a PIC.
Nevertheless,working with a pilot whom you can't communicate with is a part
of your life and task since you chose KAL. I know how difficult it was for you to see many hardships and hypocratical policies in KAL. Anyway,your leaving is around the corner.

I hope that your next job will be more satisfying work for you.

[haejangkuk]

B737NG, what can I say? I am frustrated too and most times I also cringed when I hear my fellow countrymen converse in English. I have yet to roll my eyes though when I hear some foreigners in their attempts at making Korean PAs. What we have are what you get; it's sad but I am not Jehovah Who probably can remake the world in another 6 days.

I am making this observation after waiting for people like Whinging Tinny and the host of English language police to pounce on your latest post; thankfully they have not risen to the occasion. I will not certainly take a stab at your admonition about " just one World.... ", maybe just a tad sad. Sure glad you are not doing a runner but making a dignified exit. Mind you, a number of my fellow Koreans would like to do runners too but I think they don't have the " rectal " fortitude to do that. So a few are making honorable, dignified exits like your goodself.

Please do not think I am judgemental about your language; it might have been the oliangju or fortified makgeolli our bad boys introduced to you! If so, cheers!. Like they say in Nihongo, gan pai. Godspeed and fly safe!

[Sunny Boyle]

haejangkuk, are you really Korean? I have not seen any Korean f/os write or argue lucidly like this. Or are you one of those educated overseas?

[autoflight]

haejangkuk's location is Sachon. This is a Korean Air Force base with shared commercial operation. Possibly not a base for airline pilots, but expect a heap of overseas trained KAF flight instructors would be based there.

[PA-28-180]

" haejangkuk, are you really Korean? I have not seen any Korean f/os write or argue lucidly like this. Or are you one of those educated overseas? "

Based on 'haejangkuk's age.....having been an English language instructor primarily to Koreans for the past 7 years.......I can attest that MOST Koreans of this age are much more proficient in English having begun at an earlier age....most in Kindergarten and even earlier, as compared to their older peers. However, one must ask.....what does LANGUAGE PROFICIENCY have to do with a pod strike in atrocious x-wind conditions at NRT on this day in question?

[Captain Kimchi]

Any facts now known on the pod strike? the Video shows similar sudden banking then a while ago the B777 at 16R, that time back there was no significant wind involved but the Airplane oscillated during touch down, you can also say bounced a few times.

[Sir Richard]

This one?


‪Korean 777 - Terrible landing‬‏ - YouTube

[fdr]

B777 there was a new ferringhi, with "assistance" from an airforce mafia LCP in the "flare".

737NG, good luck in your career. After about 2 months you will find it very easy to sleep soundly at night.

There are good Korean pilots, in fact Asiana has many. There are even very good ex military pilots... but the corporate culture of the company compounds all communication & operational issues that occur in all companies, and makes for an unnecessarily unpleasant and dysfunctional program.

The 6 Sigma sign in the main hanger: "ZERO DEFECTS" kind of belies any corporate understanding of human factors, and that pretty much is reflected throughout the program.

One day the Koreans may accept the presence of foreigners gracefully, but that is not the norm and it is corrosive in the flight deck environment. Curiously, the discomfort exists within national crews as well, where the crew mix of age and background results in less than desirable surrounds.

[billabongbill]

737NG, good luck in your career. After about 2 months you will find it very easy to sleep soundly at night.

Aye, aye to that. Your spouse will find you less petty and grumpy, your friends will find you more positive, your quack will think that you must have gone for stem cell regeneration, etc. Lots of good things to come!

[Amitabh Belacan]

From what I gather reading and hearing from ex-KAL expats, I wonder why there is still people making a bee line for KAL interviews! I was told be recruiters that thousands of applications were made every month; it's only the stubborn Koreans who keep on rejecting so many that they now have a perpetual recruitment exercise.

[Molokai]

As alluded by some, the riff raffs come to KAL with super high hopes for high adventure with big bucks. Maybe the Koreans believe that it's worth replacing local junk with foreign trash! This is going to lead to a self perpetuating cycle of recyclables; maybe the standards are so low that as people say " one man's junk is another's treasure "!

[skol]

KAL is one outfit you won't want to work for-or be SLF particularly.

[nitpicker330]

Classic video, what the hell was going on in that Cockpit?? :=

A severe case of PIO. ( Pilot induced oscillations )

Lucky Boeing build em tough:ok:

[misd-agin]

Wow. Looks like 4 elevator PIO's and maybe 7 alternating roll inputs. :eek:

[Sunny Boyle]

B777 there was a new ferringhi, with "assistance" from an airforce mafia LCP in the "flare".


Thankfully for KAL, it wasn't a A330. With the LCP's input in addition to what the new ferringhi's on the sidesticks it would have been a hell of a hop, skip and jump!

[Flying Tiger 74]

Do you fly Narita? I can tell you Narita with gusts of 32 and even less gets pretty nasty and landing a new airplane like the 380 is very easy to be critic from the computer...I don't wish that trouble to any pilot I don't care where he is from...safe landings...:cool: