Global Express Type Rating

[chulmleigh]

Any idea as to the cost of a Global Express type rating, time scale involved etc. Ideally a TRTO in the UK (sent an e-mail to CAE Burgess Hill but haven't received a reply). Appreciate any pointers in the right direction. Many thanks.

[galaxy flyer]

Most courses are 23-25 days, including HUD/EVS training. Prices should be in the 50K-65K range, I'm guessing on that one. CAE at DFW, FSI at ILM and Bombardier at CYUL all offer the training. CAE has a sim at Dubai, also.

GF

[flycircus]

I contacted CAE Burgess Hill a month ago for a BD700 type rating. Without any discussion they announced a price of 49000$. You can either try a sim broker in the USA who proposed a type rating for 39000$ with CAE in Dallas if I have a good memory. Try their website: pilotsimbrokers.com. With the Bombardier training center in Montreal it will be around 51000$ but keep in mind they will be able to propose the new global vision cockpit by the end of the year.
Best of luck in your quest

Flycircus

[aviatn]

About 1 1/2 years ago I called several training facilities in the US and was quoted around the 50000 Dollar mark for that rating.

[Regulation 6]

Can be difficult to get the landings - at any price...

[CaptainProp]

Could Bombardier not assist with getting circuit training done?

[galaxy flyer]

It's been done, I'd bet for the purchase price of a Global they'd throw in a "bounce" drill.

GF

[ksjc]

I got my BD 700 TR at Bombardier/Montreal. Good facility but the instructors are a bit eager with the course load and seem to enjoy watching the customer squirm when things begin to get tough at about day 15+.

FSI Wilmington where I attend recurrent perhaps a more relaxed experience for initial. Just my opinion though.

On the other hand, Montreal a much nicer place to be for three weeks.

[welliewanger]

3 years ago at Burgess Hill (near Gatwick) it took 21 days (if I remember correctly) $49k + the bumps. They couldn't arrange the circuits, but if you PM me I'll give you some contact details (prices from €12 to 16k)

[mustangbill]

How are the chances with BD700 Type Rating ? -Without Jet exp. only TP ?

[galaxy flyer]

What's the point, mustang bill? With no jet experience, no operator will put you in a Global seat, type'd or not. Having just done a hiring process with many resumes, I can guarantee, a resume with no significant jet time and a rating stands out like NEON, gets a chuckle and tossed out.

GF

[FrankR]

I agree. IF you have 8,000TT, and five type ratings and 3,000 in, say, the 604 and you have a slew of friends who know you, and then you go buy a global type, you may have a chance.

so 20-30 grand thrown into the dark has little chance of helping you. You would be better off investing in buying the Chief Pilot a Harley and in return he'll let you fly for free.

[FLEXJET]

mustangbill,

It much depends where you apply.
Chances are close to nil in the US. In Europe though I personally know 4 individuals (2 of them were low timers and had their first job on a GLEX) who could secure GLEX FO job without ANY jet experience.
And I am sure there are others.

galaxy flyer, the way US operators recruit pilots doesn't apply to the rest of the world!

[galaxy flyer]

To answer the question--the USAF. Agreed, we recruit differently in the US and I can assure that a rating and no time in type or jet experience, no offer here. And I get around enough to believe that there are exceptions, but they only prove the rule. Why would a person who could afford $50 million planes get a $50 pilots?

GF

[mgTF]

For the same reason that in the airline no one starts flying on a 747, first you learn to fly regional on a 737/320 or for general aviation Lear/citation/rayteon and then you learn how to fly around the globe..

Which flying skills will you learn sitting in a cockpit for 12hrs talking on an HF radio when you would barely understand a Chinese talking in English on a VHF (for this also 10000hrs might not be enough)

Why does people always want to skip all the steps that the others have done!!????

[FrankR]

I'm curious about your story regarding the Global operator you state hired 4 pilots with no jet time. Why didn't they hire the Citation, Hawker, and Learjet pilots who must have wanted those jobs? IF this did occur, there must have been much more to the story.

FR

[ksjc]

Above the Clouds-

Must chime in here.

The Global is not "..a relatively simple airplane". It has quit sophisticated systems much more like an airliner than a small biz jet. However, because of its high automation it is relatively simple to fly and the workload is very low.

Anyone can learn which switch to press but an airman with experience will understand why and what has happened when that switch is pressed and perhaps more importantly what NOT TO DO when things don't happen as expected.

Also, I too know of at least 2 Global FOs hired with less than 1000 hrs TT...in Europe. This probably wouldn't happen in US in my opinion.

[galaxy flyer]

ATC

you asked about jet experience, before the USAF I had about 2,000 of light plane experience, mostly flying checks at night. My comment is entirely based on US aviation--a TR without experience isn't get one a job. I just interviewed for new hiring. 103 resumes, no one had less than a 1,000 hours of jet experience, no one didn't have jet PIC time. Again, why bother?

Second, anyone can drive a GX around in the sim and for circuits, experience is what allows one to safely command on on six continents. Do you really want to be with a pilot OEI overwater? Before you say it, I have 4 diversions on the NATS, the USAF is good for something

GF

[Aslak]

US and Europe greatly differ with the hiring process and the qualifications.

In scheduled airline world, in US, you need at least an ATP and relevant hours as a minimum to be considered to fly something like A320.

In Europe, with most of the carriers, pilots enter A320 right after the flight school.

Do they have the experience like the 1500hrs guy has?
No, they don't, but usually they do have quite a bit more aviation studies behind them. Does that substitise for the lack of actual air time? In my opinion it completely does not. But this is the way it works here. The history / reason for hiring 200hrs guys right out of aviation college is simple. Europe did not nor we still have such a large general / corporate / flight school aviation than the US has. There were no 2000hrs guys with proper age and backround available.

In business aviation in Europe it is almost the same. Specially with the rapid growth we had during the past 10 years, a lot of new pilots entered, and many of them with very little experience.

I am currently flying GEXs with a F/O who has about 1000 hrs TT.
But he joined our company around 3 years ago with 200 hrs and has already flown little bit (800 hrs) of Falcon and Challenger.
And he is exteamly sharp and motivated and understands that he is actually quite lucky to be sitting on that seat.

Summasummarum, generally speaking I would personally prefer guys with little bit of experience, but it also seems to work this way. :ok:

[specialbrew]

GF

you say..... "Why would a person who could afford $50 million planes get a $50 pilots? GF "

The answer is simple........Because the management companies that are hiring the copilots are CHARGING their clients 10,000 euros a month and PAYING the co-pilots 4,000 euros. This is standard practice and on paper, they are qualified and capable. I know of several co-pilots that have started on the Global withoutjet experience and minimal turboprop exp. They have to learn real quick!

[PLovett]

g f, the fact that you can look at a 103 resumes, all with jet time and many with PIC, I suggest, is more a product of the times than history. From what I understand there are a very large number of pilots furloughed from the airlines, all of whom would be desperate to be back in work.

It may well be the case that, in your particular circumstances, you can afford the luxury of being choosey as to who gets the nod, but, should your elected donkeys get their heads out of their fundamental orifices and realise that posturing will not stoke the fires of the economy then that pilot pool may well get thinned out rapidly.

I suggest that there is nothing fundamentally difficult about flying a GLEX compared to a LJ, in fact they are probably considerably easier than 1st generation jets which basically had the same systems as their prop-driven brethren. Good training is the key, after all, we sent young men out in the largest aircraft of the day with little more than 200 hours of training and they had others flinging lumps of metal at them to boot.

I will admit that there does appear to be same cost-cutting imperative at work in training as there is across the whole aviation industry. The article by John Deakin on obtaining a GIV rating is quite illuminating and he had something approaching 30,000 hours when he trained. It makes interesting reading. Modern Flight Training...Isn't (http://www.warmkessel.com/jr/flying/td/jd/45.jsp)

[maxphlyer]

I love that article, so true!

BTW, there is no difference in FAA or JAA training, ALL are just trying to fill the squares and only those differ very slightly :ugh:

Modern training ist just a bureaucratic excercise, and that just makes it harder on the young aspiring pilot wannabies.

[galaxy flyer]

I'm not so sure--all those resumes were working pilots, several were working airline guys. About 15 were ex-military, the same number working corporate pilots, a lot of RJ captains. None of them furloughed airline types.

GF

[PLovett]

G F, thanks for the update, always willing to be proved wrong. However, the USA does have a very large pool to recruit from as there are multiple ways to make a career in aviation in your country.

I have noticed that ads for corporate jobs in the USA do have high time requirements. I once, tongue in cheek, suggested that an ad for an FO that was seeking very high time requirements should also have included 2 moon landings and 5 shuttle flights. No-one, to my disappointment, responded.

[INNflight]

A colleague of mine, as F/O on an N-reg Citation X, needed the min. required time of 4000hrs TT. Despite knowing the chief pilot before he got on!

It's perfectly doable in the States.... you get your CFI after your commercial, instruct here, there and between jobs, fly mail or small cargo, count cattle or spray crops. You'll get to those 4000 hrs easily enough.

What's there to do in Europe (and elsewhere)?

General Aviation and private flying is - and has been - overregulated and overpriced for years, and everyone not in the business looks down on it as a hobby of lawyers and doctors.
One could build hours 4000hrs by towing gliders until 40 years old, or instruct PPLs in a Cessna 150 for ten years.

Nothing else there really. The only way forward is through an airline or a bizjet.


And for the record (I was fortunate enough to get my FAA licenses before the European ones and enjoy the hands-on approach in the US):

I don't think someone who has 2000hrs instructing PPLs in the pattern is automatically a more proficient AIRLINE or GA pilot than one who is sent for his GLEX TR at 300hrs. That jet is going to fly you during the first 50 hrs anyway and not the other way round, no difference whether you come from a C150 with 2000hrs or a C150 with 200.

[galaxy flyer]

2,000 hours of instructing PPLs isn't gonna ear one a GLEX seat, either. And I fully understand and endorse the "cadet" type system used by many European airlines, after all, that is what most AFs do--structured, disciplined training with real evaluation standards and time lines for learning. I do have a problem with a 500 hour, or 200 hour, pilot with a brand new CPL spending his money to get a type rating in the hopes someone will give him a job. First, it encourages new pilots to try to "short cut" the required experience; second, it creates a pool of those willing to work for sub-standard wages; third, their lack of training sometimes endangers their charges who think they are being flown by the best for less.

I sometimes fly with the product of the "CFI, school of hard knocks" and they can be truly frightening--unwilling to learn, "I've been around, I know what I'm doin', "the book doesn't apply to me" guys. I'd rather fly with that 300- hour pilot from a good cadet program. I did it as an AF instructor in heavies for 18 years.

GF

[INNflight]

GF,

We're absolutely on the same page re. paying for a TR - any TR!
I wouldn't for my life.

We all know - and have seen - that there are some who really won't make it into a jet cockpit in their career, despite trying however hard.

Met one of these poor souls a few weeks ago at a job interview.
He failed the airline interviews, no matter where he went. Then thought to "consider the GA" after all, didn't get a shot. Not in a Mustang, a Phenom or a Caravan. Nothing.

He told me he called every single operator in Western Europe, offering to pay for a TR and fly for free for his first year... imagine that.

Not giving up on one's childhood dreams goes a long way it seems. :zzz:

[His dudeness]

here we go again.

offering to pay for a TR and fly for free for his first year

First one in the bin at my place. Fly for free? Any chiefpilot should be able to imagine what that would mean for himself and all the other pilots in the company.

I remember a dude who offered to fly for half the difference between F/O and capt salary plus F/O in order to get promoted. He also had a pension from the military thus could afford to cuircumnavigate all the others ahead of him. Met him years later when he was bitching about the fact that he would not get a pay rise.


Sometimes one gets what he deserves....

[CLOUDSDRILLER]

Hi Guys,
in fact, Intial Type Rating is often "not so cool" as we don't quite know yet where we are aiming for, even if we believe we do, and what it's gonna look like in the end...
...when all the bits and pieces of (hard):ugh: work and learnings will have fully integrated our brain, and its storage room.
Initial is essential, and has to be dealt in peaceful environment, with determination and seriousness, even if we are "among the best pilots in the world". (which I don't any longer believe I am or have ever been).
The thing is that we are each time entering in a new world (especially when changing aircraft manufacturer [and philosophy]), unless having been lucky enough to fly as an observer on the aircraft we are now getting trained for. Things don't always speak by themselves, until we get to use them on a daily basis or so.
Most of the time, we meet more failures, faults and defects during initial training than what we ever will in the rest of our pilot's life, (for the majority of us, I mean. Beware: there are some unlucky exceptions in the real life!), and in the end of the training, we are pretty sharp about dealing perfectly well and safely with all those situations.
Thanks for the good training center and devices, the well experienced instructors...
...and our own hard work too.
The recurrent training will be an other important piece of work, because this time, we have built up a real experience on type. This should open some useful feedback topics. Just to say: the deepest we grab during training, the easiest and coolest it gets in the real cockpit.
After all, this is where we spend most of our working time, and we wish to keep it cool.
Anyway, congratulations for your Type Rating, enjoy your new aircraft:D.
CD

[flaretoland]

Hello,

Could someone please provide info on the current cost of a Global 5/6 type rating ? (Please state whether its per pilot or for a crew)
Where could this be done? Has anyone been through it in the last few years?
How long does the full type rating last?
Feel free to PM/email me. Thanks for your help!

[galaxy flyer]

Montreal or DFW BATC quotes about 100 grand US for the rating, if you have the ATP. Certainly nogotiatble, but not many openings available.

GF

[Transformers]

Any update as to who we can do circuits with to get this type rating on your licence.

PM me.. Cheers.......

[galaxy flyer]

Having tried to arrange circuits, it's near impossible outside of an employer. Insurance and/or owners usually prohibit renting out the plane for training use.

GF

[BizJetJock]

There is one place, but advertising rules prevent me naming it since I am involved. You will see an advert on here in the next few weeks though.

BJJ

[bizjetway]

If you need to do your 6 landings after the Sim just PM me, I can arrange for you.

[C212-100]

flaretoland,

You can get a Global 6000 Vision TR in either BATC, CAE or FSI. Prices per pilot could easily be above 70.000 USD without Base Training.

Base Training will be very difficult to accomodate if you don't have your aircraft yet.

I've been through the same process some months ago. The TR was carried through my employer and therefore the prices were lower than above stated.

Base Training for EASA License (4 landings in my personal case) was held through AeronautX and I found them very helpful and got a way to have a Privately owned Global for my Base Training.

PM me if you fell I may be of help.

Regards,