The fat lady has sung: American Airlines buys Airbus and Boeing

[Jando]

AMR Corporation Announces Largest Aircraft Order in History With Boeing and Airbus - Jul 20, 2011 (http://aa.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=3286)

Lots of Airbus to be expected at American Airlines in the coming years ...

[aterpster]

SASKATOON9999:
Expect lots of toys being thrown out prams, lots of feet stamping, yelling and calls for government intervention and a judicial review to overturn the decision in favour of Boeing - Just as with the Air Tanker process!
Kudos to AA executives for realising that there are other manufacturers on the market!
10 years ago AAL was operating some ABs:

DCA02MA001 (http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20011130X02321&key=1)

Further, there are many other U.S. carriers that have operated Airbus birds for quite a long time, none of which were subject to " lots of feet stamping, yelling and calls for government intervention and a judicial review to overturn the decision in favour of Boeing."

We yanks have private enterpise and we have government. Our airlines are private enterprise, at least when it comes to equipment purchases.

Tankers, OTOH, are owned and operated by the government.

[er340790]

Can anyone explain the commercial logic of ordering BOTH the A320neo and 737NG??? The two appear so close that they overlap.

Is it:

To ascertain which performs best, then standardsise on that machine, re-selling the other orders off the production line?

A way of demanding the best unit prices from the competing manufacturers, despite the additional cost of operating two very similar types?

Some form of new financial wizardry that looks very clever today on paper but which result in yet another Ch 11 filing 5 years down the road?

[Mercenary Pilot]

Can anyone explain the commercial logic of ordering BOTH the A320neo and 737NG??? The two appear so close that they overlap.

Possibly to speed up the retirement of an ageing fleet of MD-80's?

Also, AA have used Airbus products previously.

[TWR]

Final decision depends on which one fails first;

the Dollar or the Euro.

[Hotel Tango]

Oh you cynic TWR ;) But you could be right!

I imagine that neither Boeing nor Airbus could deliver as rapidly as AAL need those new aircraft on the line so I'm thinking along the same line as Mercenary Pilot.

[AirResearcher]

Thats a lot of aeroplanes!
It will be interesting to see how people who screwed Boeing and Airbus when times were tough (ie Ryanair's CEO) will manage to negotiate their 'customary discounts', or be forced to go elsewhere in future - either way it will pose them a headache.

Good news for Boeing,Airbus and AA though....as long as industry growth holds up... :ok:

[bearfoil]

United, Boeing's first born, has all 320s. Why wouldn't AA order some? It is a superb a/c, ask Sullenberger.

Capitalism=Hedge.

[WFLineage1000]

What about "do not put all of your eggs in one basket"? ;)

[Sqwak7700]

What about "do not put all of your eggs in one basket"?

... I think it was covered with...

Capitalism=Hedge.

An order that big cannot be fulfilled by just one customer. Last time AAL made an order that big, it was mostly Boeing and back in the 90s - they are still receiving planes from that order.

I think this will speed things up for them, which they need if they want to remain relevant among the giants that Delta and United have become since acquiring Northwest and Continental.

The bigger question will be what are the regional airlines in the US gonna do when AAL steals all their pilots? What is gonna happen to American Eagle with such a large order for quasi-regional jets from "Big Brother"?

Other regional airlines have ordered big Embraers and CRJs, but the Neo is nudging right up against RJ territory with operating costs. Boeing's 737 successor is surely to be a new model so as to one-up Airbus' re-engined A320. This will lower the Boeing product's operating costs more - making it even more like a big RJ.

Very interesting news.

[bubbers44]

I think Sully could have landed a B757 or any other airplane in the Hudson as well as he did the Airbus. Technology and automation had nothing to do with his sucessful ditching, piloting skills did.

I read his book and he never mentioned any advantage he had because of the type of aircraft he was flying. Ditching without stalling is pretty elementary and we all know not do do that.

[bearfoil]

Sqwk7700

AAL is shopping American Eagle.

bubbers44

Sully would be my choice to land just about anything in the drink. I think he avoided judging the 320 to the public, and Skiles was more important to him than the a/c's marque, imo.

[LN-KGL]

Sources have said today:
Had Airbus been able to deliver the A32X soon enough, the whole order could well have ended up at Airbus. The very important news about the launch of the 737RE (re-engined 737 with CFM Leap-X) almost drowned in hype around the Airbus order, and ended up as only a single paragraph in Boeing press release about the AA order today.
Boeing Press Release 20 July 2011:
In addition, American Airlines has committed to order a variant of the 737 featuring new more fuel-efficient engines, pending final airplane configuration and launch approval of the program by the Boeing board of directors. This commitment for 100 airplanes, with options for 60 more, is the first of many anticipated for this variant. The airplane would be powered by CFM International's LEAP-X engine.

I guess John Leahy have had a good laugh today after his prediction failed. It didn't last "about one year, maybe two", but only five months "until Boeing will simply offer new engines on its 737".
(the two quotes above are taken from Airbus exec.: Boeing will re-engine 737 (Bloomberg) | Boeing and Aerospace News - seattlepi.com (http://blog.seattlepi.com/aerospace/2011/02/16/airbus-exec-boeing-will-re-engine-737-bloomberg/)

[grounded27]

It may also do with dominating deliveries as AA looks FWD while the other two larger airlines are waiting to see what the best option is. AA will save money in the long run by covering the spread and replacing old diesel burners giving them a profit edge for expansion over the next decade.
A sure bet is the price of fuel will only increase.

[clareview]

Lots of large (and not so large) airlines operate similar sized machines from different manufacturers -Air Berlin, SAS, THY, Lufthansa, BA (A320 family plus B737), US Air, Even beofre the amalgamation with NW Delta flew B737-200 and MD80's. Recently Southwest has hinted at a 2 model fleet. American flew A300's and similar sized Beoings for years.

For the size of AA, split fleets at different bases means not a lot of economy of scale is lost.

[mingocr83]

Awesome news for Airbus and AAL.

Boeing offered the 737RE (Re Engined) as a last resource to get some money from American. They knew from the beginning when the rumors came up a few weeks ago, they had to move fast...The cost for the NEO upgrades on the A32x family rounds $1.5 billion...on the 737NG it's going to be a lot more expensive, they have to raise the LG, redesign the wing box, strength the wing box and wings, new pylon. I guess that this would be the last stretch on the fuselage design that has more than 30 years on the market...Boeing should be launching the RE on 2017...pushing the NSA (New Single Aisle) at least 5-8 years.

Let's see how the stakes are on this...if Delta follows the same road as American...the plane market on the US is going to get very interesting. ....

Regards

[FlightPathOBN]

I was kinda wondering about that with the 737, they really have stretched that design to the limit...and were resisting the redesign of the box, with all the the engineering going into the 87.

The success of the NEO drove them to do this, and the potential to lose a much larger portion of the AAL contract, short squeeze is a good term...

Airbus may have to open that facility in the US after all....

(Boeing knows how to build airplanes, they do not know how to make money building airplanes)

[CargoOne]

I haven't read other articles on that matter but I guess one of the drivers here Airbus simply cannot deliver that many A320s/320Neos in time. I'm even more surprised they were able to secure 130x pre-Neo 320s... If you are regular size operator and ask Toulouse "can I buy a few more?" you will be allocated a slot for mid/late 2015 delivery, almost the same time when 320neo production starts.

[mingocr83]

CargoOne...

Airbus, since the KC-45 program has been thinking about opening a manufacturing line in the US. I guess this purchase plus the options that are in the line...(645) may force Airbus to get this plant going to supply American Airlines+ Latin American customers with no hiccups.

The problem is not manufacturing ...Boeing and Airbus can go up to 60 planes a month...the problem is if the suppliers can keep up with the rhythm, that is the culprit for the upcoming programs...

[lomapaseo]

The problem is not manufacturing ...Boeing and Airbus can go up to 60 planes a month...the problem is if the suppliers can keep up with the rhythm, that is the culprit for the upcoming programs...

I knew it was somebodys fault other than Boeing and Airbus.

They would happily take the money but they couldn't deliver the airplane because the elves in the North pole and the Black forest couldn't produce it, That's the way of today's global economy some days nobody is going to buy your paper airplane.

[mingocr83]

FlightOBN

Indeed! The plane has been stretched to maximum with the 737NG...with a few tweaks here and there...the 737RE is like getting the design into Extra Time...but the investment is massive. The answer is so rushed that the Board of directors has not approved the 737RE...they were lucky enough that American Airlines committed to the program to get it going...let's see if they think this sale is enough to approve it...

Seems that Boeing did not put enough attention to CFM with the Leap X and PW GTF to move on...Airbus always suspected that Boeing was not going to do another airplane until the 2020-2022 timeframe... the NEO is the result of that...and caught Boeing pants down....

[bearfoil]

How is the 786 coming along?

[mingocr83]

Lomapaseo,

Unfortunately that is the problem for both manufacturers...the challenge now is for the next Single Aisle Airplane...if they want a profitable program, they need at least 60 planes a month 80 to 90 would be excellent. If you read the news...Boeing and Airbus are studying to get the production lines to 40-45 planes a month for next year...NEO is pushing that to 50-55 in the 2015 time frame....this would give the suppliers enough time to adjust their production lines...and cope with the demand...

[FlightPathOBN]

Given the significant amount of re-engineering on the 737, for a relatively short lifespan, I would suspect the 737RE to be a loss for Boeing.

They had resisted this to-date for a reason....

just as the tanker deal was a last ditch effort to win at all costs, losing already a $billion on the first 4 aircraft...
this RE appears much the same deal.

How is the 786 coming along?

786??

[Turbine D]

Your quote: The cost for the NEO upgrades on the A32x family rounds $1.5 billion...on the 737NG it's going to be a lot more expensive, they have to raise the LG, redesign the wing box, strength the wing box and wings, new pylon.

I don't think your observation regarding the re-engining of the Boeing 737 with the CFM56 LEAP engine is correct.

From Flightglobal: CFM's original timeline called for engine certification in 2016 and EIS with a replacement for the Boeing 737 or A320 in the 2018-2020 period. Boeing now talks about a 2020 replacement at the earliest, and Airbus now sets the date at 2024.
The new LEAP-X schedule makes it possible for Boeing to develop a "737RE" with an EIS around 2015-16, about the same time an A320RE might be available (see separate story).
Boeing has been cool to the prospect of re-engining the 737 because the Pratt & Whitney P1000G GTF diameter is too big. Boeing also has an exclusive supplier contract with CFM to power the 737, making selecting PW problematic in any case.
But with the news that CFM can meet a 2014 target date for a Comac test flight program and a 2016 EIS, this opens the door for a 737RE. The LEAP-X engine diameter is very close to the CFM56 now on the 737.

I know for fact the LEAP engine will be lighter than the CFM56-7 models used on the latest 737's with the composite fan and fan casing. All the changes you noted will not be required except for perhaps the pylon. I will bet the LEAP engine fan diameter will be the same as the current CFM56 engine come 2016.

[mingocr83]

Bearfoil,

The 787-6...never heard of that?! The 787-3 has been shelved for a few years until Boeing gets all the gremlins eliminated with the 787-8.. then the 787-9 will come up for certification..

The Dreamliner program in fact is the basis for the next single aisle airplane..it would be all composite...passenger/cargo load similar to the 757 and fuselage factor would be pretty similar.. The A321 NEO can do it for a bit less in cargo and passenger..transcon and TATL. The studies right now are checking if it's viable to do a Single Aisle with a 4-3 seating arrangement...meaning a fuselage a few inches wide. or 3-3 arrangement with a fuselage a bit longer..the economics would be superior due to new engine programs from RR, the GTF would be like in revision 2-3 and the CFM well, let's see how they can cope with the core temperature first...I guess that they will use a huge amount of ceramics inside the Leap-X to accomplish what they have promised in the new engine..

Regards

[mingocr83]

Turbine D,

No, I'm not... if you check the specs of the Leap X and the CFM 56-7..the bypass ratio on the Leap X is going to be higher that the old engine..meaning a higher fan diameter...+ new engine casing and nacelle

If Boeing installs the Leap X as it is right now...it would hit the nacelle on the ground...Airbus on the other hand...the nacelle/engine casing for the Leap X would give a few inches of ground clearance..

[mingocr83]

FlightOBN,

Indeed, you are right! Airbus made the NEO as a gap closer and the cycle starts again..Boeing is going to do another airplane, then they will improve it while Airbus comes with something new...so on so on

A bunch of Boeing customers are putting pressure to get a new Airplane...Boeing cannot take the risk right now with 2 programs and several delays....and bleeding cash on others...(tanker)

[FlightPathOBN]

These singles are relying far too much on engine specs...damn near getting into the fighter jet realm ratios.

The wingspan needs to be wider.

[Turbine D]

mingocr83,

The LEAP engine is a completely new engine starting with the core. If the core is smaller, including intake area and the fan is the same diameter as the present CFM56-7, the by-pass ratio becomes larger, right? Trust me, it will not be dragging on the ground...

[mingocr83]

TD,

I agree with you...but Boeing has said that if they want the Leap X they may need to raise the landing gear and use a new pylon also change the wingbox and wing...as FlightOBN stated the wing has to be larger...

Believe or not..the Leap engine is going to be a bit heavier than the old CFM...

[mingocr83]

TD,

Check it out

Final 737 re-engine configuration down to four possible fan sizes (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/07/20/359751/final-737-re-engine-configuration-down-to-four-possible-fan.html)

[WHBM]

I guess that this would be the last stretch on the fuselage design that has more than 30 years on the market...
30 years for the fuselage design ? More like 60. Boeing's 737 fuselage is that of the entire 707/727/737/757 range, first launched in the mid-1950s when Pan Am persuaded them to widen the proposed 707 fuselage to allow 6-across seating, and first delivered in 1958.

I wonder if any of the original tooling is still in use.

[Rollingthunder]

SouthWest should not screw up the model and stick with B737's unless going SouthWest International - that would be interesting.

[stilton]

So, according to the article in Flight Boeing will achieve the nacelle clearance for the new engines by merely 'jacking up the nosewheel'



Why not just put a little wheel under the tail ....

[gtf]

Looking at the details is interesting...
-Firm order for 130 A320s + 130 A320NEOs.
-Not-quite-firm-yet order for 97 737NGs (100 = 3 previous options already exercised + 97 announced for this order).
-Promise to be the first to look at 100 737NG New Evolution (that's what the press releases call it) whenever there's something to look at.
-100 options for Boeing.
-365 options for Airbus.

That is one loud fat lady.

[Meering]

CargoOne - you are surprised AA could order so many current A320s. Maybe they include ones scheduled originally for the recently cancelled Dubai Capital order?

[CargoOne]

Meering

I'm not that much into this business so I'm not following it closely, what I said is just what I've been told in TLS a couple of month ago. 320 backlog is aprox 4 years now if you want it straight from manufacturer. Surely some leasing companies are holding slots for speculative deals but then again most of them having no problems to place aircraft with airlines.

[Facelookbovvered]

If Boeing needed to raise the landing gear height with the NE will they still be able to use a common type rating?

I don't think it will happen, the fuselage is too old and the gains of a new build will allow a leap frog over the neo, in the short term I doubt that Boeing will be too worried such is the world wide demand for narrow body aircraft out to 2020.

[Jando]

The Seattle Times (if you want to believe them) has a good read with background information about how the deal came along:

Business & Technology | Boeing scrambles to avoid losing American Airlines deal to Airbus | Seattle Times Newspaper (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2015662118_american20.html)

Apart from the business side, I wonder how AA will manage their new fleet structure, both with respect to routes and crews. Quite an amount of training, simulator rides and type ratings necessary to make it all work, not to speak about maintenance, spares and cabin crews.

[gtf]

320 backlog is aprox 4 years now if you want it straight from manufacturer.
It's more or less correct (2015 for A320, 2018 for A320NEO) but sales and production talk constantly. If sales is pursuing a customer as big as AA, they make sure there are slots available to make a batch earlier than the "normal" availability date. If they don't get the sale, they try the next potential customer. If that doesn't work, there will always be someone willing to get their aircraft earlier than scheduled to pick up these empty slots.

With so many planes for AA, not sure there are many slots left however, even with Delta and Southwest looking at ordering "something." Perhaps one, but not both airlines, most likely...

[answer=42]

What I don't understand is why, when Boeing launched the 737NG, they didn't opt instead for a 757 shrink + re-wing. The 757 had a newer basic design than the 737-3/4/500. At the time of the NG launch, the 757 appeared to have a good future: the 757-300 development was, as far as I remember, about the same period.

If Boeing had updated/shrunk the 757, would they not be in a better position now? What am I missing? (Just an SLF here).

[thepotato232]

Just a quick point of order:

United, Boeing's first born, has all 320s. Why wouldn't AA order some? It is a superb a/c, ask Sullenberger.

United's never quite been married to the Boeing brand. Students of history will remember the minor shock they created when they chose the DC-8 over the B707.

[ironbutt57]

Good grief...they bought what they bought, Air France has Boeings..everybody has everything....

Military aircraft are a different scenario,...should be home-grown, for Europeans as well as us Yanks...'nuff said...:ok::ok:

[bearfoil]

Never married to be sure, That would be incest. At one time the same company, UAL offed its guppies in favor of the 320. If they start purchasing some heavier Airbus, then we worry.

:D

[sb_sfo]

They ordered some 350s a while back, a split order with some 787s. That heavy enough for you?

[bearfoil]

I am a worrier. At least the 350 has twelve VS joins. Not so sanguine about resin. When Boeing wastes one in a fire, and demonstrates products of combustion won't kill otherwise happy pax, I'll rest easier.

[wozzo]

I am a worrier. At least the 350 has twelve VS joins.

Oh bearfoil. Now you even worry about separating VS of airplanes which have not been built yet. I guess you would have tried to convince the Wright brothers not to take up flying at all?

[bearfoil]

No, I am taking note of Airbus worrying, and redesigning the system twice since AA587.

:ok:

I also take note they have not utilised my solution. Don't strengthen the VS, Weaken the Rudder.

[OFBSLF]

United's never quite been married to the Boeing brand. Students of history will remember the minor shock they created when they chose the DC-8 over the B707.

You need to go back a bit further into history. United Airlines was originally Boeing Air Transport: United Airlines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines)

[WHBM]

You need to go back a bit further into history. United Airlines was originally Boeing Air Transport
Actually it was a three way split. Pratt & Whitney (hence the holding company still being "United Technologies"), United Airlines (ex-Boeing Air Transport) and Boeing Aircraft. Hamilton Standard (propellers), Sikorsky, and Chance Vought were also in the combine. It was broken up under US anti-trust laws in the early 1930s.

[mingocr83]

@ Bearfoil,

If you are so afraid to fly on the Bus, then you should be afraid of flying on the 737 too...remember the actuator problem and the USAir crash?

**** happens all the time...at the end of the day, the design problems were amended and those problems did not happen again on both models..

[bearfoil]

I'd ride in a saddle on the dorsal, if it was bolted down. What makes you think I fear the Bus? It's a beauty. She has some slimy pimps once in a while, but she's a great old broad.

Worry is not Fear.

[misd-agin]

answer=42 (post 43) -

What I don't understand is why, when Boeing launched the 737NG, they didn't opt instead for a 757 shrink + re-wing. The 757 had a newer basic design than the 737-3/4/500. At the time of the NG launch, the 757 appeared to have a good future: the 757-300 development was, as far as I remember, about the same period.

If Boeing had updated/shrunk the 757, would they not be in a better position now? What am I missing? (Just an SLF here).

*****


Due to cost of re-engineering and Southwest's influence on keeping the changes (no 757 cockpit/nose on NG :{) to a minimum. It was cheaper to update the 737 than it was to shrink the 757.

[bearfoil]

One of the prettiest snouts in the biz. Probably a good deal quieter also.

[barit1]

More detail on the 1934 breakup of the old United Aircraft may be found on the P&W wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_%26_Whitney).

[Rwy in Sight]

How much (ball pack (sp?) figures would cost the option to upgrade the engines as the case of the newer generation of 737 vs designing an aircraft from scratch.

And also could the parts of the re-engine 737 could be transfered on the newer aircraft?

Rwy in Sight

[WHBM]

How much (ball pack (sp?) figures would cost the option to upgrade the engines as the case of the newer generation of 737 vs designing an aircraft from scratch.
As I understand it (hopefully someone can correct me here) :

The A320Neo is a question of substituting engines and bolting on winglets.

The 737Neo is a different matter because the new engine has insufficient clearance as is, so a new longer landing gear is required, which in turn requires fuselage underbelly mods to stow it when retracted, different positioning of bulkheads, etc. Believe there are also significant wing mods required. I understand the engineering required is a whole league different compared to what Airbus need to do, which is doubtless part of the greater evaluation Boeing has to do. I also wonder if the A320Neo will get on the same type certificate, and therefore crew qualification, and whether the Boeing, with much greater changes, can do the same or not.

It's remeniscent of when the DC8-60 series came along, Douglas could do the stretch but the Boeing 707, which was indeed evaluated for the same, proved incapable of a comparable stretch due to its basic design and layout.

[WHBM]

Shrinks of aircraft have appalling economics, and are generally lossmakers for manufacturers, while lessors won't touch them.A319 (from A320) a most notable exception in all respects.

[clareview]

what is the difference between a shrink e.g B737-600 to a growth e.g a A340-600 or a D8-400 or a B757-300 or B767-400?

Was the F100 a growth of the F70 or was the F70 a shrink of the F100?

[FlightPathOBN]

In an SEC filing made Monday morning. AMR Corp., parent company of American Airlines, released new details about its massive plane order from Boeing and Airbus.

Here's the Boeing deal:

American will get 20 Boeing 737 next generations each year between 2013 and 2017. The orders may consist of Boeing 737-700, 737-800 or 737-900ER aircraft, the carrier said.

Between 2018 and 2022, American expects to receive 20 re-engined Boeing 737s per year.

The deal includes purchase rights for 40 additional Boeing 737 next generation aircraft that, if exercised, would be delivered between 2015 and 2018. Purchase rights fo 60 additional "re-engined" aircraft would, if exercised be delivered between 2020 and 2025.

The lease agreements on each aircraft has an initial term of ten years.

Here's the Airbus deal:

American will lease 130 Airbus current generation A320 family aircraft that will include A319, A320 or A321 aircraft. The carrier is scheduled to receive 20 to 35 Airbus aircraft each year between 2013 and 2017.

Ten "new-engine option" Airbus are scheduled be delivered to American in 2017 with 20 to 250 AirbusNEOs scheduled for delivery between 2018 and 2022.

American also has 70 options and 15 purchase rights for additional Airbus current generation A320 aircraft, which if exercised, would be delivered between 2014 and 2017. There are also options for 280 additional A320NEOs, which if exercised, would be delivered between 2017 and 2025.

Summary of AMR CORP - Yahoo! Finance (http://biz.yahoo.com/e/110725/amr8-k.html)

[LN-KGL]

Was the F100 a growth of the F70 or was the F70 a shrink of the F100?

The Fokker 70 was a shrink of the Fokker 100. Fokker 100 flew for the first time in 1986 and Fokker 70 flew for the first time 7 years later.

[ian16th]

Hasn't the 737 got some 'grandfather rights' about the number of exits, that enable an extra row of seats, compared to an Airbus 320 of the same length?

If Boeing change the the 737 too radically they loose these grandfather rights and have to put two more exits in each A/C.

Vague rumblings in my grey matter :8

[TSR2]

It seems obvious that Boeing have been panicked into action to prevent Airbus from gaining the total order.

According to a leading aviation magazine, the Boeings CEO talked at the Paris Airshow about an all-new aircraft with new technology which already exists, as a replacement for the B737 which could enter service by 2019. He also said they would make the right decision at the right time.

The chairman of leasing company ALC also unofficially dubbed the new aircraft as the B797.

[FlightPathOBN]

According to a leading aviation magazine, the Boeings CEO talked at the Paris Airshow about an all-new aircraft with new technology which already exists, as a replacement for the B737 which could enter service by 2019.

That was at the airshow when Boeing officially said they would not re-engine.

When Boeing announced the 737 re-engine, they stated that they pushed the new aircraft off until at least mid decade (2025)