JetStar NZ [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Oakape

19th Jul 2011, 04:18

If you are working your numbers for the advertised positions based on the base salary plus the retention bonus, you will need to think again.

I have just received an e-mail from Rishworth that has the following in it -

The retention bonus is a discretionary bonus made to pilots in accordance with company policy as varied from time to time. There is a Guaranteed and Variable component as specified in the table below. The Variable component will be at the sole discretion of the Company and may be influenced by factors outside the control of the pilot. This will be paid the next pay period on or after your anniversary date.

The table mentioned doesn't copy straight into here, so I have reproduced it in the following format -

Captain -

Year 1. Bonus $20,000. 100% guaranteed component & 0% variable component.
Year 2. Bonus $20,000. 75% guaranteed component & 25% variable component.
Year 3. Bonus $10,000. 50% guaranteed component & 50% variable component.

First Officer -

Year 1. Bonus $10,000. 100% guaranteed component & 0% variable component.
Year 2. Bonus $10,000. 75% guaranteed component & 25% variable component.
Year 3. Bonus $10,000. 50% guaranteed component & 50% variable component.

The table doesn't go beyond 3 years, so who knows if that means the retention bonus stops after 3 years or if it continues on at the 3rd year rate.

So it is basically $130,000 for captains & $65,000 for F/O's

ZK-NSN

19th Jul 2011, 05:29

Should have been here yesterday.......

Chocks Away

20th Jul 2011, 08:40

Gone are the days of Employers being reputable and solid citizens!
There are jars of Vas around every corner now in this industry, which only serves to have an aggressive and detracted set of employees "working for you" (I use that last term loosely.).

27/09

21st Jul 2011, 10:32

which only serves to have an aggressive and detracted set of employees "working for you" (I use that last term loosely.).

Perhaps a better term might be "employed by you" that gets rid of any direct inference of actually working for anyone. :E

BGQ

22nd Jul 2011, 03:57

That's a real laugh. The first airline with a new approach to pay scales. If this is right then it's the first pay scale that I have seen that actually reduces guaranteed pay with increased time in the company. Sort of like a backwards seniority list.:D

600ft-lb

23rd Jul 2011, 12:15

Of course..... As JQ is the airline that everyone loves to hate..... Carry on knocking..

Justify it any way you want, under-cutters have ruined the prospect of a well paying for the next generation. Management are getting bigger and bigger bonus's the more you guys sign your lives away to be indentured slaves to this company, paying for your training and paying it back on your meager wage for a 'retention' bonus that you can just tell some idiot manager will make you bend over and apply your own vaseline to receive the discretionary part of ..

Flava Saver

23rd Jul 2011, 12:32

$8500NZ net huh? You've been hood winked if you think thats a good deal.

I drive the same planes on the 'Western Island' and in the last 12 mths have net approx $13000 AUD a month. Super on top, and more days off. :}

All the best to you buddy.

Flava Saver

23rd Jul 2011, 12:45

Fully agree with your last sentence. :ok:

What The

23rd Jul 2011, 13:00

You neglected to factor in the housing provided into your nett weekly figure. In addition, what superannuation do you get?

Bypass ratio

23rd Jul 2011, 13:55

Halfpast3bus,

Your figure are grossly incorrect. I've been in the company for 4 years & as a new Captain on the 777 I net approx. 19000NZD/month. I have my own accommodation. Also, I recently had the pleasure of getting 12 weeks bonus which was approx. 36000NZD. All this & no tax. I think your deluding yourself. Yes I work hard but 2 x ULR flights & a Geneva gives me 16 days off. :)

Bypass ratio

23rd Jul 2011, 14:07

As a new Captain my base salary is 12600NZD/month. Obviously this doesnt include:
Flight Pay,
Utilities Allowance,
Annual Bonus,
Medical & Dental Insurance,
Chauffeur pick up & drop off to airport,
Exchange Rate Protection,
Telephone Allowance,
Superannuation, &
1 x return ticket (anually) confirmed Business (upgradeable to First) anywhere on the EK network for myself & family.

Also, unlimited ID90 First class tickets for myself & my family.

I think you'd better add tax into the equation as well. i.e. For me to earn my 19000NZD, I would have to gross about 26000NZD? Whats the going tax rate in NZ?

600ft-lb

23rd Jul 2011, 14:32

I think you're getting paid very well in OZ, congrats. :D I'd love to get paid that in NZ. Don't think 4 Mil pax will support it for long

You want to believe their propaganda go for it. The only thing you getting paid stuff all (considering what you do for a living) is supporting is the the pocket of some manager whose hoodwinked you into accepting a substandard wage.

This has got to be the only job in Aus/NZ where wages have not only NOT kept up with inflation, but gone backwards 50% + in the last 10 years.

Amazing!

Bypass ratio

23rd Jul 2011, 14:50

Well actually I have a Villa in which my mortgage is being paid off by EK. Secondly, how much gross do I have to earn in NZ to get 19000NZD net?
I can tell you that life in Dubai is not that bad. Especially if the wife likes it.:)

Superannuation: 4 years in EK & its worth 94000NZD

1a sound asleep

23rd Jul 2011, 15:26

The happiest pilot isn't the one earning the most money. halfpast3bus you sound like you have worked out what's important to you in life.

Driving the new Audi doesnt make you happier than the other guy in the new Calais....

A 1.5 m home isn't any better than 1 m home...

I couldn't work in Dubai, no matter what I was paid. Like wise I couldn't live in China. If I had to stay in OZ and earn less money that would make be VERY happy.

Bypass ratio

23rd Jul 2011, 15:32

Yes your right. I just wanted to clear up the "pay myth". Dubai isn't for everyone & I'm the first to admit it. I enjoy it but I'm spoilt with the following layovers:
Auckland,
Amsterdam,
Birmingham,
Bangkok,
Brisbane,
Guangzhou,
Paris,
Jakarta,
Colombo,
Capetown,
Dhaka,
Moscow,
Dusseldorf,
Entebbe,
Rome,
Frankfurt,
Glasgow,
Sao Paulo,
Geneva,
Hamburg,
Hong Kong,
Houston,
New York,
Johannesburg,
Osaka,
Kuala Lumpur,
Luanda,
Los Angeles,
London(Gatwick)
London(Heathrow),
Lagos,
Manchester,
Melbourne,
Manila,
Mauritius,
Munich,
Nairobi,
Tokyo(Narita)
Perth,
Shanghai,
San Francisco,
Singapore,
Sydney,
Vienna &
Zurich

And that is just on Boeing & doesn't include freighter flying if I wanna do it.

Now where does a 36 year old B777 Captain get to stroke his ego with that?

Tankengine

23rd Jul 2011, 15:37

Paddled the kayak out though the heads last week and had humpback whales go past 10 metres away.:ok:

Enjoy what you have, and fight to make it better!:E

Bypass ratio

23rd Jul 2011, 15:38

That's pretty cool. I think I would've **** myself:ok:

standardbrief

24th Jul 2011, 00:09

Re JQ NZ contract. I think many people are not giving this quote direct from the contract enough weight:

'A person will not be appointed unless Jetstar is satisfied that the person’s employment with Jetstar will at all times be subject only to those industrial agreements which bind Jetstar at the time it considers the person’s application.'

'The JQ NZ contract could, and should be a lot better. On the other hand, I've seen a lot worse. Baby steps in the right direction I hope'

no baby steps mate this contract is all you have, atleast if they are so desperate get them to remove that clause.

why is this contract less than the australian one anyway? cost of living in nz similiar, sure wages lower but your not working for a nz company.

remoak

24th Jul 2011, 00:51

Figure out a dollar value for NOT having to live in the sandpit and factor that into your equations. For me, that figure would be high. For a young guy without a family, it pobably isn't an issue - wouldn't have been for me 20 years ago.

Take into account that anyone earning a fortune in Oz on a nice jet, has probably been extraordinarily fortunate during their career. Most of us aren't that lucky, for various reasons. It is highly unlikely that most people aspiring to a Jetstar job would ever be able to get to that position, so suggesting that they should hang out for such a job is somewhat ridiculous.

Bear in mind that if you want a Direct Entry command in Australasia, this is the only realistic opportunity, and will probably not be repeated for a long time.

As I said in the previous locked thread - if you think your career choices are only about money, you are sadly deluded.

Me, I like waking up in NZ, listening to the waves crash on the beach, and so on. But that's just me...

I'm spoilt with the following layovers:

Well I'm very pleased for you, you must like hotel rooms. I have been to all of those places and, trust me, it isn't that easy to find a good time in places like Lagos or Luanda. After two or three visits, you've bought your souvenirs and they all tend to blend into one.

Me, I'm spoilt with being home in my own bed every night, and having to time and opportunity to play with my various motorised toys.

mcgrath50

24th Jul 2011, 03:05

remoak,

Your logic is no better than that of almost all the Jetstar Cadets though! It's a job, yeah sure the pay isn't what it should be, but I get straight onto a jet, I don't have to live in some ****ty outback town, I'm working my way up the food chain, Qantas hasn't hired for years so there isn't much point holding out for that.

I can see your point of view remoak, but it is no better than the guys who are Jetstar Cadets and jumping on that sub-par contract, as long as you are okay with them, then at least you apply the same standards to everyone.

John Citizen

24th Jul 2011, 03:32

I'm spoilt with the following layovers:

You also forget to mention that you are spoilt with :
- jet lag :\
- back of the clock flying :\
- long boring sectors :\
- very little hands on flying, even if just for the takeoffs and landings :\
- living out of a suitcase :\

Oldmate

24th Jul 2011, 04:35

Halfpast3 - if your figures are anywhere near correct (?), and you put that extra $875 in the bank, over 10 years that is $600,000 with compound interest. If you lived in company accommodation, and were able to rent out your own house for $500 per week, that is another $350,000.

Justify it any way you want, but "the fish John West reject, fly for jet*"

Water Wings

24th Jul 2011, 05:16

The happiest pilot isn't the one earning the most money. halfpast3bus you sound like you have worked out what's important to you in life.

I'm going to stick my head up into the line of fire and say from a Human Resources management point of view (god yes, I admit it, I've dabbled in the dark art of HR study) more money does indeed not lead to improved work place happiness ergo Herzberg and his two-factor theory. A perceived lack of money can however lead (amongst other things) to dissatisfaction and poor motivation in one's job. In the case of JQ this is probably irrelevant, ignoring the money there seems to plenty of other reasons to not want the job!:}

remoak

24th Jul 2011, 10:55

it is no better than the guys who are Jetstar Cadets and jumping on that sub-par contract, as long as you are okay with them, then at least you apply the same standards to everyone.

I have no problem with Jetstar cadets, they are only doing what thousands have done before them in Europe. Lots of people out there buying type ratings and 100 hours of "line training".

Young pilots have a common tendency to climb over each other to get a gig. Some countries (notably Australia and NZ) tend to reinforce this tendency by playing on a young pilot's aspirations and extracting all kinds of free labour out of them, ie cleaning aircraft or sweeping out hangars, refuelling aircraft etc., all for no pay. This is commonly seen as being committed and prepared to go the extra mile, but it is, in fact, b*ll****.

Aviation as a whole would be a lot better off if these young guys showed a little professional pride and refused to pander to such operators, but it ain't ever going to happen.

So I have decided to have no issue with young guys jumping on crap contracts to get the gig. It's the way the world is.

I am, however, extremely proud of the fact that I have never bought a type rating, never paid for any sim time, and never worked for free.

mcgrath50

24th Jul 2011, 12:12

There is a big difference between sweeping out the hanger after work and working for free in my view. If the boss goes the extra mile to look after me, I'll go the extra mile to look after him, how I have always worked since my first job in High School.

What The

24th Jul 2011, 12:48

So two veterans (Halfpast3bus and Remoak) have both been overseas and earned enough money to basically take up a retirement job in NZ.

Why do you now see fit to talk up the appalling Jetstar contract?

There are pilots who for some strange reason do not want to uproot their families and move overseas so that someday they can come home and take crap contracts as a fun retirement job. They have this unusual belief that the piloting profession can afford their skills and pay them a good salary in their own country. I find it quite laughable that a pair of returnees try and educate the current crop of pilots about what is an acceptable salary.

If you cast your mind back, why did you leave in the first place?
· Not given the opportunity to stay in NZ with a jet job
· Ansett NZ redundancy
· Shiny jet syndrome
· Other?

Now you come back and take up a job which, due to having been in a better situation elsewhere, enables you to live comfortably.

Good for you.

You are not the solution; you are actually part of the problem. Reverse S C A B S!

framer

24th Jul 2011, 14:21

What is the difference between being overseas and being at home?
Serious question. Is there some sort of boundry that others can see that I can't between one country and the next? Are the people fundamentally different? Do they deserve to operate in a protected vacuum?
How come the guy who gets off his bum and goes and does a job someone wants him to is judged on a moral basis? There is no difference between travelling from Auckland to Fiji, or from Hong Kong to Perth, or from Sydney to Perth or Auckland to Dunedin.
(I'm not talking about strike breakers here, just people moving about the planet working)

remoak

24th Jul 2011, 15:01

I find it quite laughable that a pair of returnees try and educate the current crop of pilots about what is an acceptable salary.

An acceptable salary is whatever a sufficient number of pilots will accept. It has nothing to do with whatever arbitrary standards you want to pull out of thin air.

Wake up and smell the coffee. The days of the dinosaur legacy carriers are over. It's a brave new world, and the low-cost airlines can no longer afford the salaries that you seem to think are normal.

Now you come back and take up a job which, due to having been in a better situation elsewhere, enables you to live comfortably.

If you can't manage to live comfortably on 135K a year, before per diems and bonuses, there's something very wrong with your lifestyle. What's the average wage in NZ these days?

In any case, your premise is wrong. As much fun as I had overseas, and as good as the experience was, I also went through the experience of several carriers going broke while I was working for them... so I didn't come back rich.

You are not the solution; you are actually part of the problem. Reverse S C A B S!

Hmmm well as I was never involved in a strike, I can't be a scab of any sort, reverse or otherwise. And if you think the solution is holding out for unrealistic levels of renumeration... in the current economic climate... then you are the problem, not me!

What The

24th Jul 2011, 16:00

How many airline execs do you know have cut their remuneration due to the "current economic climate".

Is it zero because they don't have a ….......

Due to your desire to sacrifice remuneration for lifestyle to such an extent, and I doubt you are poor BTW, you have directly affected all future pilots in NZ. But it is just a retirement job anyway.

PhoenixNZ

24th Jul 2011, 17:47

mcgrath50

24th Jul 2011, 21:02

So phoenix, where will you go if you quit jetstar?

Jetstar won't hire you back on a better contract, Virgin won't be any more likely to take you than a GA guy, Qantas (if they are hiring by then, or even still around) won't take you because you quit jetstar, Air NZ same as VB, so what are you going to do? Have to go overseas to somewhere like Europe, Asia etc. where these low hour cadetships actually have some traction.

Or go GA, and have the option of Jetstar, Virgin, Qantas, Air NZ, regionals, corporate aviation and so on. With jetstar you are putting all your eggs in a very rickety basket that is owned by a farmer who make no mistake is using you.

breakfastburrito

24th Jul 2011, 22:16

Phoenix. There are four documents you need to read.
First, the withdrawn

Jetstar Contract (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?fejyfm3jy00lr5p)
Jetstar Policy Manual (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?kn59anggtr36qu4)
Jetstar Endorsement bond (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?j3ik0j3g2bbmh35)

Read those documents vary carefully, particularly the policy one. Your employer pretty much owns you, and you can be dismissed for the slightest infringement. It can move you from base to base & country to country on a whim to suit its commercial objectives. Not only will you be living out of a suitcase for your career, you will be living without a home base. Nice for a few years, but not your working life. The home base is what keeps most of us sane.

In short, these are onerous T&C. Although they have been withdrawn, you can be assured they will resurface in various other contracts. This represents their "wishlist" - total ownership of your working life.

The final document is the Air Pilots 2010 Award (http://www.fwa.gov.au/documents/modern_awards/award/MA000046/default.htm). This is what I will call your "Dream document". In your career, you will dream that you can achieve those T&C at best, if you want to live in Australia or New Zealand. Those contract 250 hour CPL's who do the same as you will now be 2500 hour FO's fighting "tooth & nail" for a contract in Asia after you have been turfed from Jetstar. (Jetstar found others just like you who were willing to pay even more for their endorsement, and accepted even lower T&C your on).

Employers keep looking at people like you and say, why would I pay anyone more, perhaps I can pay less. Given that employers will make a profit from the endorsement & training process, they will continue to train & train & train. Once it becomes a source of revenue, it will be grown. This means there is every incentive to pump as many pilots through the pipeline as possible. This will flood the market with 2500 ~ 3500 hour FO's in Asia, all looking for that job to give them the command upgrade.

If this all sounds like a fantasy land, go and look at the CTC Wings thread Part 2 (http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/250640-ctc-wings-cadets-thread-part-2-a.html), take the time to read all the first thread, and the second. All this has happened in Europe, and its all ended in tears & bankruptcy for the cadets. Take the day or so that will be required to read those threads, your future depends on it.

The promoter's who operate these schemes have made careers and fortunes out of people like you, they are selling you the concept of "getting ahead" to get you into debt bondage. They understand human nature & the folly of youth. These promoters are slick & clever, and eat the naive & gullible for breakfast.

Never come back to this forum & complain, I have handed you all you need to know on a silver platter, I have done the legwork, given you the information, but will you read it & comprehend the problem?

One further thing to think about an hopefully learn as you get older is, if something comes too easily & without effort, pain & sacrifice, it is because it was not really worth anything to begin with.

PhoenixNZ

25th Jul 2011, 00:17

Read those documents vary carefully, particularly the policy one. Your employer pretty much owns you, and you can be dismissed for the slightest infringement. It can move you from base to base & country to country on a whim to suit its commercial objectives. Not only will you be living out of a suitcase for your career, you will be living without a home base. Nice for a few years, but not your working life. The home base is what keeps most of us sane.

Nothing in any of the documents you have provided mentions anything regarding JQ reserving the right to relocate you without any consultation.

Yes you can be dismissed for infringements, just like any other job in the world where you dont meet the requirements for the role and/or break any reasonable rules set down by the employer.

So phoenix, where will you go if you quit jetstar?

Jetstar won't hire you back on a better contract, Virgin won't be any more likely to take you than a GA guy, Qantas (if they are hiring by then, or even still around) won't take you because you quit jetstar, Air NZ same as VB, so what are you going to do? Have to go overseas to somewhere like Europe, Asia etc. where these low hour cadetships actually have some traction.

What your saying in regards to another airline not giving any preference to someone from JQ vs someone from a GA backgroung makes no business sense at all.

Two pilots apply for a job.
One of them has 3000 hours from mostly GA background. They have some airline experience from flying turbo-props.
One of them has 3000 hours from an airline background. The majority of their hours are on the type that you just so happen to fly.

Now what your saying is that they both have an equal shot at the job despite the fact that GA pilot is going to require considerably more investment to train up to standard than the JQ pilot. What sort of business runs this way?

Pamelah Andersen

25th Jul 2011, 01:01

"Taking a lower pay than my colleagues in the job is a small price to pay to get my career off to that sort of start."

CLASSIC!

If you're not already, you'd do well in airline middle management.

If all professional pilots were this cheap we'd be overnighting at the Mangere Bridge backpackers where the only draught on tap is a hand shandy from the local cleaner.

my oleo is extended

25th Jul 2011, 01:09

Phoenix, BB has provided you with some very sound and solid advice, the sort of input that money can't buy these days, especially this bit -

if something comes too easily & without effort, pain & sacrifice, it is because it was not really worth anything to begin with.
Good luck with your endeavours.

PhoenixNZ

25th Jul 2011, 01:26

Phoenix, BB has provided you with some very sound and solid advice, the sort of input that money can't buy these days, especially this bit -
Quote:
if something comes too easily & without effort, pain & sacrifice, it is because it was not really worth anything to begin with.
Good luck with your endeavours.

I'm a 26 year old who has been working for the past six years on a reasonable salary. I have a wife and daughter with a son on the way.

I'm now a fulltime student on a student allowance which doesn't actually cover my bills. We are using our hard earned savings to support us while I'm studying. I have no money to take my wife and daughter out for a nice day at the zoo or anything like that. Its going to be this way until at least Oct next year.

No, no sacrifice or pain or effort there at all.

Please dont presume to know who I am or what my situation is and judge whether or not I'm putting in the hard yards to get to where I want to be.

remoak

25th Jul 2011, 02:08

How many airline execs do you know have cut their remuneration due to the "current economic climate". Ever heard of market forces? In a market economy, people earn what they are worth. At some times they will be worth more, at other times less. Sometimes, when the economy is tight, they will be worth a lot, as the need to ensure the future of a company becomes more critical.

Really good execs are worth a great deal, and there aren't that many of them. Pilots, on the other hand, are relatively common.

Some airline execs have cut their salaries in the last few years (most notably in the UK and the USA). Probably not in Jetstar though (yet).

Some examples:

When Japan Airlines hit hard times in 2009 and began to lay off its staff, JAL CEO Haruka Nishimatsu cut his own pay to less than that of his pilots and eliminated all his perks. He now rides public transit to the office and eats in the employee cafeteria, standing in line with his colleagues. (Japan Airlines’ CEO pays himself less than the pilots, takes the bus to work – Boing Boing (http://boingboing.net/2011/02/25/japan-airlines-ceo-p.html))

Southwest Airlines CEO, Gary Kelly has voluntarily cut his 2009 base salary by 10 percent citing the company’s first-quarter results, the low-cost carrier announced in a proxy statement, filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission on Friday... most senior managers are accepting a pay freeze. (Southwest Airlines Southwest Airlines CEO voluntarily cuts his base pay by 10% - eTurboNews.com (http://www.eturbonews.com/8942/southwest-airlines-ceo-voluntarily-cuts-his-base-pay-10))

CEO Timothy Hoeksema will accept a pay cut of 40% as Midwest Airlines attempts to cut costs.(Midwest Airlines CEO Takes 40% Pay Cut - The Consumerist (http://consumerist.com/2008/07/midwest-airlines-ceo-takes-40-pay-cut.html))

etc etc etc...

you have directly affected all future pilots in NZYes, let's go back to the good old days, shall we? Where only the lucky few got into the only airline in the country flying jets - unless of course you were ex-military, in which case all your squadron buddies would make sure you got in... where 20 years to a command was seen as "pretty good, actually"... and so on.

It's pretty easy being critical of people taking the Jetstar deal from the left seat of something with a koru on the tail (or another similar airline). It would be fascinating to see what you would do if you were made redundant tomorrow. Somehow I doubt you'd be sitting there jobless, taking a prod at Jetstar while living on the dole...

BTW just to make it clear, I'm only commenting on the DEC deal, the cadet thing is a whole other ball of wax.

GUARD

25th Jul 2011, 03:38

Does it really matter if REMOAK takes up a deal with Jetstar NZ?????

I potentially face redundancy at the Q, and don't have too many brilliant ideas about where to go if it doesn't quite work out.

I can imagine though if I was a native kiwi and living in DBX or similar, the prospect of returning home in rank as a Captain and being with family, having some kind of lifestyle might be a lot more persuasive than the actual terms of the agreement. Never say never in this caper. I threw my CV in the bin when I got into Qantas. Now I might just have to dust the bloody thing off and go through it all again just to start at the bottom somewhere else.

As I continue to say, the proposed Jetstar expansion is going to require a shedload of pilots from somewhere, which can't be supplied by cadets or pilots returning home.

I'm not missing the effect this could have on T&C's if people start taking up the offer because it is offensive but if someone wants to come home on that deal let them be at peace.

27/09

25th Jul 2011, 11:36

PhoenixNZ
Two pilots apply for a job.
One of them has 3000 hours from mostly GA background. They have some airline experience from flying turbo-props.
One of them has 3000 hours from an airline background. The majority of their hours are on the type that you just so happen to fly.

Now what your saying is that they both have an equal shot at the job despite the fact that GA pilot is going to require considerably more investment to train up to standard than the JQ pilot. What sort of business runs this way?

One problem you will have as a Jetstar cadet is a potential lack of P in C time. Most airlines hire future Captains. You need an ATPL to become a Captain, but without sufficient P in C time you cannot get an ATPL. The GA pilot will have this P in C time, something the 3000 hour Jetstar cadet probably wont have.

Besides most airline put all new hires through their standard line training programme to ensure consistency with their SOP's etc, so the cost of training a 3000 hour pilot with a GA turbo prop background is not going to be much different to a 3000 hour pilot from another airline.

limitedrisk

25th Jul 2011, 12:27

haughtney1

25th Jul 2011, 18:37

A current JQ 320 Capt NZ nets on average, NZD $8500 Per month doing 80-90 hours per month ( nearer 90 ). 10 days off per month and 9 hours average duty per work day. Including flight pay, but not including bonus.
Mates in the sand pit ( EK ) net around 12,000 NZD per month ( thanks to tanking USD ) plus accommodation provided. So that's ( based on a 4 week month ) NZD $ 2,125 per week Jetstar vs NZD $3,000 per week EK. Difference , 875 per week

I just want to add a bit of my own experience here, and its based off my payslip as a year 2 F/O at EK.
Yes its true we here in the sandpit have taken a hit with respect to the NZD (relatively speaking I guess)
Having said that, I'm not entirely sure the headline figure for EK skippers of 12K NZ net per month is accurate based on my pay packet at least, and its worth saying that the headline figure is meaningless, what you need to look at is what you are left with at the end of the month as well as what is affordable and what your standard of living actually is.
First things first however, the Jet* F/O package is a disgrace, however its clearly aimed at new joiners who will by virtue of their lack of marketable experience climb over each other to secure a position.
The Capt's package, broadly speaking is at the lower end of what I would consider acceptable, and in all reality what Jet* can get away with.
Like I said earlier.(as a 2nd year EK F/O)...to back up Bypass with some actual figures..I cleared last month approx 11K NZD including flightpay, but exclusive of super, bonus etc etc etc, and again, to earn that in NZ, I'd have to be earning the thick end of 14-14.5K per month too net that.
I'm also gonna throw something else into the mix here, living in NZ is far far more expensive than it ever has been...in point of fact I've found that it is almost on a par with dubai, and before you scoff...what do you now pay for a litre of petrol?, a pint of milk?, a leg of lamb?, a loaf of bread?, a few fillets of fish?, electricity?, plus a few more things besides.....I can tell you all of these things are now considerably more expensive in NZ than here in DXB.
As this is not meant to be an EK vs Jet* thread, I'm gonna stop there with the money aspect, what I would say however is, salaries in NZ are not keeping up with the inflated cost of living (have you tried buying a house in the AKL region recently?), and at some point in the not too distant future the NZD is going to dip vs the USD....and you'll have even less purchasing power.
For someone like me at my stage in life with a young growing family, working offshore is a no brainer (we can get back to NZ whenever we need to)...NZ will continue to be the land of low pay...and a reducing standards of living.

P.S. All my numbers are based on my families costs living between DXB and AKL over the last 6 months:ok:

big buddah

26th Jul 2011, 00:06

As someone who hopefully in a years time be a Jetstar cadet I've found this discussion quite interesting.

When I'm done with my Ab Initio training I have every intention of applying for the Jetstar Cadet program.

My thought process behind this is quite simple:
I get a rating on an aircraft in high use with airlines all over the world
I get to start building hours on said aircraft with very low existing hours which for NZ and Australia is very very rare
If, once I have enough hours to look at moving onto another airline, I dont like the conditions at JQ I can move on.
Yes, the pay is lower compared to other JQ pilots. I am more than willing to accept that in exchange for getting my airline career off to a flying start (pun intended).

If I was to choose NOT to do the JQ cadets program then in all probability I will have to fight tooth and nail with every other 250 hour pilot with a CPL for one of the few charter GA type jobs out there. I wont get paid any more than I was compared to JQ and I'll have no 320 rating, no 320 hours and then have to fight again to get into an airline.

Taking a lower pay than my colleagues in the job is a small price to pay to get my career off to that sort of start.

PhoenixNZ you are a absolute mumpet! You are the sole reason why thousands of pilots world wide are fighting to save their jobs and better their future.
You are self centered short sighted and are dream pilot for management. You'll have quick gains in "your career" but will end up off side with the pilots groups. This will massively restricted your future movement. You will find that your decision based now may become a serious blotch on your CV. As mentioned the better airlines in the region won't hire you. If you think because you have a A320 rating you'll be able to go to Air NZ, think again! Suddenly you will see that managements cunning plan to have you stuck on your current terms and conditions has worked! You'll begin the fight to raise your terms and conditions but with no luck as you signed up as a lowly cadet that no one cares about.

The other local jet operators are trying hard to improve their conditions Jetconnect, Pacificblue, Air NZ. All you will be doing to them is pushing a knife in their backs. You will be signing a contract to earn nearly 50% of what these operators pay terms & conditions wise? Think hard about how they feel about that.

The only reason jetstar has started these cadet positions is for them to make money not you.

The road of the GA pilot in NZ, OZ, Africa ,PNG etc has been well walked, a true and trusted way of building hrs and life experiences. It is where you make your pilot friends. It is earning the respect of the these fellow colleagues thats guarantees your future career!

You should start by talking to people in the industry and definitely not people who hang around CTC or the jetstar cadet program.
NZALPA the professional pilot group of NZ is doing everything to raise terms & conditions in NZ and in conjunction with AFAP etc. You will being going against these professional groups endeavours. These are the people you want on your side working for you! Talk to them!

27/09

26th Jul 2011, 01:23

Angry RatNot true, 2 ways around it:

1) at least 500 hours of flight time as pilot acting in command under supervision (ICUS)

2) at least 250 hours flight time, consisting of at least 70 hours as pilot in command and the balance as ICUS

Now considering you need a minimum of 90 hrs PIC for a 150hr Com or 100hrs PIC for a 200hr Com, all you need is a Multi CIR and you are on your way

In OZ perhaps but not NZ.

Yes there is the TTRMA though I'm not sure how some operators on this side of the ditch view a NZ ATPL gained via the TTRMA in a situation like this. I know our CAA were not happy with some aspects of the TTRMA and the way pilots are skirting around the new Zealand ATPL requirements and were having talks with CASA about this.

Artificial Horizon

26th Jul 2011, 01:28

What have the NZ CAA requirements got to do with anything, half the pilots in Jetstar NZ don't have any form of NZ Licence. They all operate on CASA Licencing and I can tell you there has already been a path put in place with CASA to ensure that Cadets can gain a full ATPL when requirements are met. They will then be able to fly around in NZ as Captains regardless of what the NZ CAA thinks about it all.

framer

26th Jul 2011, 01:32

fly around in NZ as Captains regardless of what the NZ CAA thinks about it all.

With the whole thing riding on NZCAA not making a rule change?
Bit risky isn't it?

framer

26th Jul 2011, 01:49

The only way that this can/could change is if the NZ body make it a requirement for the aircraft to be NZ registered or ban J* NZ from flying in NZ. Not going to happen IMO

They could make a rule change to the effect that if you are operating aircraft that are based in NZ you need an NZATPL. Job done.

remoak

26th Jul 2011, 02:06

You'll have quick gains in "your career" but will end up off side with the pilots groups. This will massively restricted your future movement.

Complete crap. Having the type rating and some experience is what future employers will look at - not the fact that you got it at Jetstar, which in any case is a highly regarded trainer of pilots.

You will find that your decision based now may become a serious blotch on your CV. As mentioned the better airlines in the region won't hire you.

Again, complete crap. If airlines need pilots, and you have the qualifications they want, you will be in with the same chance as everyone else. Airlines don't care who your previous employer was, unless it was the very worst of the worst in terms of training and safety. HR departments just look at your experience, see that you were trained at a subsidiary of Qantas, and decide accordingly. THEY are the ones doing the hiring, not pilots. And in any case, the very reason they will put you through three days of interviews and a sim check is precisely because they want to make their own minds up.

If you think because you have a A320 rating you'll be able to go to Air NZ, think again!

If and when Air NZ need pilots, they will make a pragmatic decision based on your qualifications and experience. They don't hold grudges against other airlines, that's the sort of crap that groups of pilots in bars do. More to the point, if you don't go down the Jetstar route, you won't have the qualifications to apply to Air NZ in any case. Not that Air NZ are ever likely to hire directly onto the A320 anyway...

The only reason jetstar has started these cadet positions is for them to make money not you.

The only reason any airline hires anybody is to make money.

The road of the GA pilot in NZ, OZ, Africa ,PNG etc has been well walked, a true and trusted way of building hrs and life experiences. It is where you make your pilot friends. It is earning the respect of the these fellow colleagues thats guarantees your future career!

The road to the airlines doesn't have to involve the years of poverty, risk-taking and uncertainty that the GA path requires. I didn't tread that path and, guess what, I have never had any trouble finding a job, have plenty of pilot friends on several continents, and have, I believe, their respect - based on the sort of pilot I am, not the path I chose to the airlines. Most of them don't know the exact details anyway, and don't ask.

This idea that you have to do the hard yards as some sort of rite of passage in aviation is utter nonsense. Even more stupid is the idea that you should sacrifice a career opportunity to provide some nebulous help in bolstering the pay and conditions of those already flying jets. Yeah, that's really smart! What is actually happening here, is that those already flying airline-level equipment see you as a threat, and, being the selfish individuals that they are, would rather you declined the position in order to preserve their lifestyles. My advice - look after your own career first, because none of these guys are going to help you.

NZALPA the professional pilot group of NZ is doing everything to raise terms & conditions in NZ and in conjunction with AFAP etc. You will being going against these professional groups endeavours. These are the people you want on your side working for you! Talk to them!

NZALPA is a toothless old tiger that has had it's day, I wouldn't hold your breath expecting any help from them. Definitely not in GA as you struggle towards and airline career (if you were to go that way).

Some of you guys need to get out a little. Guess what, all these arguments have been had already in Europe and the USA. Guess what everyone said when Easyjet and Ryanair started hiring cadets - all the same arguments you see here. And what happened? Thousands of pilots got the break they needed and are now flying bigger equipment for other airlines. And nobody got hurt in the process. Other airlines don't care that they got their start at a low-cost operator, in fact you will find that these pilots are prized as the training at both the budget airlines is excellent.

So, PhoenixNZ, I'd say go for it. You probably won't get the opportunity again in this country. Your reasoning is perfectly sound. The only reason you are getting a reaction on here is because a lot of these guys see you as a threat and would rather you went away, which is pretty much what drives all the anti-Jetstar crap you see on these forums. That, and the ridiculous idea that the only way to an airline seat is through GA. That myth was dispelled long ago in more enlightened countries.

Australia and New Zealand - the most insular and parochial places on the planet... nice scenery though.

27/09

26th Jul 2011, 02:12

My thought process behind this is quite simple:
I get a rating on an aircraft in high use with airlines all over the world
I get to start building hours on said aircraft with very low existing hours which for NZ and Australia is very very rare
If, once I have enough hours to look at moving onto another airline, I dont like the conditions at JQ I can move on.

Sure you get a type rating, well actually you buy a type rating, adding to the vast expense you have already incurred during your cadet training.

Yes, you build hours on a jet which as you've pointed out is very very rare in NZ and Oz. Have you bothered to ask yourself why it's so rare in this part of the world? I'll tell you it's because there's never been a shortage of suitable applicants to fly jets on this part of the world.

Have you ever asked why are you being offered this "wonderful' opportunity to fly a shiny jet with such low hours? That's so Jetstar can pay you a pittance, other pilots wanting a jet job know how crap the conditions are and are not interested.

Where are you going to move on to if you don't like it? Do you really know how things are in the aviation industry, or do you just know what the likes of CTC and Jetstar have told you?

PhoenixNZ, You really do need to think this whole scenario through, right to the end, to see where it's likely to lead for your career if you really think this is good move right now. Once you start thinking along the lines of "I'll do this to get a start" what about the next time you want to "Get a start" how far will you bend over then. How much money will it cost you and your family.

You think it's costing right now? Wait until you've spent a good proportion of your career having to bend over to get ahead and you still don't have enough money to take the wife and kids to the zoo. Remember that big fat loan you will have after finishing the cadet scheme and paying for the type rating.

27/09

26th Jul 2011, 02:23

The road to the airlines doesn't have to involve the years of poverty, risk-taking and uncertainty that the GA path requires.

Very true. You now now go directly to years of poverty and uncertainty at an airline bypassing GA altogether. In fact it would appear that GA might actually become a better option to avoid poverty and uncertainty. :sad:

big buddah

26th Jul 2011, 05:24

The only reason any airline hires anybody is to make money.

Yes you're right but it should not be doing it out of you the employee! The jetstar bean counters look at you the cadet as another revenue stream and will continue to milk you for it. I love to see a break down of the profit they are making out of cadet training?
The cadets should ask for a cost break down and compare it to what they could pay for it elsewhere?

The road to the airlines doesn't have to involve the years of poverty, risk-taking and uncertainty that the GA path requires.

There is many other lines of aviation other than the airlines. I've operated for many good & better paying operations worldwide that you would call "GA" on better pay and conditions than the jetstar F/o package. Without poverty, risk taking or uncertainty.
Turbo prop F/o's in NZ are getting paid more than the direct entry jetstar F/o. You have better pay and conditions working for Mt Cook or Air Nelson, so your argument doesn't stack up to me!

NZALPA is a toothless old tiger that has had it's day, I wouldn't hold your breath expecting any help from them.

"Them" is every NZALPA member. Every airline/ATC in NZ has their ALPA council and is only as strong as the pilot group that you are involved with. Why do you think over the years these groups have negotiated fear deals for themselves? because they got together and worked as a team for a better deal. Something Remoak you don't seem to keen to do?

So what EBA/CEA are you employed on in NZ????? Individual?

If and when Air NZ need pilots, they will make a pragmatic decision based on your qualifications and experience. They don't hold grudges against other airlines, that's the sort of crap that groups of pilots in bars do. More to the point, if you don't go down the Jetstar route, you won't have the qualifications to apply to Air NZ in any case. Not that Air NZ are ever likely to hire directly onto the A320 anyway...

I'm not saying that the airlines will have a grudge against you. They just want a driver to get from a to b as cheap as possible.
To think that after 3 years of the jetstar cadet scheme it will easier to get into Air NZ is to be hugely mistaken. So if you are going to do the cadet scheme to having a plan of staying in NZ long term you will have poverty and uncertainty! jetstar are already offshoring and undercutting their own crew so what do really think is going to happen to you?

Luke SkyToddler

26th Jul 2011, 05:33

Guys.

You're wasting your breath. He's not even reading what you're saying, he's reading the stuff from a couple of pages back about how much the guy in Emirates gets paid and thinking "wow a couple of years in Jetstar and I could have some of that". And you know what, he probably could.

Look at the discussion on the "wannabes" forum which is largely pitched at Brits and Europeans, and the discussion has moved on from paid jobs altogether, it's all about which pay-to-fly broker is best to use in order to go and buy 500 hours worth of "line training", which will typically cost THEM around £20 to £30,000 for the privilege of sitting in a right seat for a few months.

So they can then go and pay £50 to submit their online application to Ryanair, and £150 for the interview should they be called.

And then work for £10,000 per year to fly a B737. And pay for their own sims, uniforms, hotels and crew food.

All this, after they've paid £70,000 for a CPL/IR and £30,000 for a type rating.

And there are STILL hundreds and hundreds of punters queueing up to do it.

THAT is the kind of future that airline managers dream about and as long as supply vs demand in NZ of output-from-the-schools versus available jobs stays so skewed, it's only a matter of time I reckon.

You're right going to Jetstar might not improve their chances with Air NZ or QF, but get real, when's the last time they hired anyway. Or at least, hired more than half a dozen guys in a year. Awesome if your number comes up in THAT lottery but realistically you aren't gonna scare 200 hour guys off by threatening them with that one.

Jetstar and Pac Blue are the only game in town these days, so the real choice is whether to apply for Jetstar now ... or do 5 years in GA and then 5 years in Eagle and THEN apply for Jetstar :hmm:

remoak

26th Jul 2011, 08:45

Yes you're right but it should not be doing it out of you the employee! The jetstar bean counters look at you the cadet as another revenue stream and will continue to milk you for it.

Of COURSE they do, it's their job to maximise profit and minimise costs. If they can get a return, they will. Cadet gets a type rating and experience in a decent airline, and after three years has great prospects. It's a win-win. What would the cadet be doing otherwise? Instructing for a fraction of what Jetstar will be paying him? Sweeping hangars? Taking it up the arse from some shonky GA operator?

Easy choice.

There is many other lines of aviation other than the airlines. I've operated for many good & better paying operations worldwide that you would call "GA" on better pay and conditions than the jetstar F/o package. Without poverty, risk taking or uncertainty.

Sure, but it is very much the exception rather than the rule.

Turbo prop F/o's in NZ are getting paid more than the direct entry jetstar F/o. You have better pay and conditions working for Mt Cook or Air Nelson, so your argument doesn't stack up to me!

And they are stuck on crappy turboprops with very few prospects. Once again, I know what I'd choose. Go the Jetstar route and you have a marketable type rating that will see you employed for as long as you have a medical.

Every airline/ATC in NZ has their ALPA council and is only as strong as the pilot group that you are involved with. Why do you think over the years these groups have negotiated fear deals for themselves? because they got together and worked as a team for a better deal. Something Remoak you don't seem to keen to do?

Well... no. I worked, until recently, for an admittedly small airline that had no ALPA representation, and in the time I was there, not a single visit from an ALPA rep. Your mis-spelling ("fear" deal) sums it up for me. I have, as a GA pilot, sought the help of NZALPA a couple of times... the response? Nada. Waste of space. If you don't fly something with a koru on the tail, they don't want to know you.

As it happens, I have been a member of a union for over 25 years (BALPA). They, by comparison, are worth every cent.

To think that after 3 years of the jetstar cadet scheme it will easier to get into Air NZ is to be hugely mistaken.

It will definitely be easier than going the GA route. Let's see... take a guy with lots of (say) PA31 time, no two-crew experience, lots of bad habits (from an airline point of view) and no experience on anything with turbines or inertia; or take a guy with three years A320 and six successful OPCs?

Another no brainer. Air NZ aren't stupid, they know who will be the greater training risk.

So if you are going to do the cadet scheme to having a plan of staying in NZ long term you will have poverty and uncertainty!

What planet are you on? No, you won't. After probably five years or so, you will have a command on a nice new jet, probably 15 years before you would with Air NZ. You will be on a salary in the region of 150K which, while not Air NZ levels, is certainly not poverty and is probably three times what you would be on if you had stayed in GA.

Yet another no-brainer.

he's reading the stuff from a couple of pages back about how much the guy in Emirates gets paid and thinking "wow a couple of years in Jetstar and I could have some of that". And you know what, he probably could.

Precisely.

You're right going to Jetstar might not improve their chances with Air NZ or QF, but get real, when's the last time they hired anyway. Or at least, hired more than half a dozen guys in a year. Awesome if your number comes up in THAT lottery but realistically you aren't gonna scare 200 hour guys off by threatening them with that one.

Jetstar and Pac Blue are the only game in town these days, so the real choice is whether to apply for Jetstar now ... or do 5 years in GA and then 5 years in Eagle and THEN apply for Jetstar

Couldn't agree more.

grrowler

26th Jul 2011, 09:06

After probably five years or so, you will have a command on a nice new jet Not while they keep hiring DEC's desperate to get back home you won't. More likely you will get fed up with the DEC's and struggling to pay your bills, go to the sandpit for 15 years, and then get your command back in J* NZ, thus completing the cycle and shafting the new cadets. Well done!:ok:

remoak

26th Jul 2011, 09:37

PhoenixNZ

26th Jul 2011, 09:42

In all fairness I would guess that a lot of the posts here lack objectivity. Most of them seem to be from drivers who got to their current positions "the old way" and as such have their own personal objections to having a new way to get to the same location that may well be easier.

To those drivers who are sitting in the left seat for whatever airline and got there the old way I challenge you to answer this question honestly:

If when you started your aviation career there was an option to get into a program such as Jetstars, where you will end up with a F/O seat after limited hours in an aircraft that is incredibly popular and common around the world, would you say no simply because its not the "traditional" way to get into that aircraft.

Some of you have made an argument that the cadetships are bad for existing drivers and you may be right but only time will tell as these cadetships as yet have not had any direct impact on existing drivers (NOTE: AS YET THEY HAVEN'T because discussions on offshoring etc are still only discussions and not actually done yet).

Ultimately my priorities are simple:

1. Whats best for me and my family
2. Whats best for me and my family
3. Whats best for me and my family

Whats best for those existing drivers etc is something that they need to discuss between themsevles and their families and their unions. Whats best for the industry overall is for discussion between the airlines and the unions.

I dont think anyone should fear that being a F/O or Capt is ever going to become just a mediocre and low/mid pay job. If it ever did then airlines would find they have very very very few recruits owing to the fact that the cost of becoming a pilot far outweighs the rewards. Even the most hardcore of aviation enthusiasts will have a hard time justifying 100k of training for a 40k a year job.

At the end of the day I feel that most current drivers resent this change in the way one becomes a big shiny driver simply because it is change and because they feel it marginalises the effort and time they put in to getting where they are today. Thats understandable but also could be perceived as being petty. Life is all about change and all you can do is go with it.

Lastly to those who appear to be such experts on the recruitment policies of the various Australiasian airlines: I'm assuming you are all part of the HR dept of said airlines. Or alternatively your all ex Jetstar cadets who have applied for jobs with other airlines and been denied a job expressing because you were a Jetstar cadet?

If your neither of the above I'd love to hear how your qualified to state how a Jetstar cadetship would negatively impact anyones future career opportunities.

Luke SkyToddler

26th Jul 2011, 10:11

One thing that's still got my head scratching is, why are Rishworth involved in this at all? I just flat out don't believe, that they couldn't have found enough applicants for jobs by just advertising through the normal channels, and I can't understand why they would pay thousands of $$ worth of commission to an agency without a good reason.

Are we all absolutely dead set certain that this is legitimate recruitment to the regular Jetstar NZ employment contract, as opposed to, say, another attempt by the Aussie parent company to introduce those "group" contracts they are in so much legal hot water over at the moment? By paying you through Rishworth and so removing themselves one further step from the union and the EBA thing?

remoak

26th Jul 2011, 10:22

Well, sorry to have to tell you, angryrat, but the world has fundamentally changed during my career. Adapt or die (which rats are pretty good at, as it happens).

The day it changed was the day Southwest Airlines opened for business. It's never going to be the same.

They are about creating as many pilots as possible, getting cadets out there as F/O's,to fill up all the gaps in aviation. They don't care about their future's, it is about creating a surplus of pilots to fight over jobs. In the end, it doesn't cost them anything and lowers the amount they have to pay.

Hmmm. Tell you what... go and search the interweb and find out how many pilots are projected to be required over the next 20 years. Boeing says:

To operate and maintain the airplanes that will be added to the fleet over the next 20 years, the world's airlines will need an additional 466,650 trained pilots and 596,500 maintenance personnel... The largest growth in pilot populations will be in the Asia Pacific region, with a requirement for 180,600 pilots. Within Asia, China will experience the greatest need for pilots, with an expected requirement for 70,600 pilots. North America will need 97,350 pilots; Europe will need 94,800 pilots; Africa will need 13,200 pilots; the Middle East will need 32,700 pilots; Latin America will need 37,000 pilots; and the CIS will need 11,000 pilots.

Now go and work out the training capacity for all those new pilots. Guess what... supply doesn't even come close to matching demand. In fact it is going to be a major issue for airlines. Pilots are going to be in serious demand.

As far as pay goes, well it's market-led, and whenever there is a shortage of pilots, salaries go up, often dramatically. In my first job, my pay went up 37% in one year (1988) due to heavy competition for the available pilots. If Boeing and others are even close to correct, those days will likely return.

The "ploy", as you call it, hasn't had the effect you think it has in Europe. There are plenty of people working for lo-cos, on good salaries and very good working conditions. Not the cadets, I grant you, but most of the skippers are pretty happy with their lot.

So I'm afraid your argument doesn't add up.

27/09

26th Jul 2011, 11:25

PhoenixNZ
dont think anyone should fear that being a F/O or Capt is ever going to become just a mediocre and low/mid pay job. If it ever did then airlines would find they have very very very few recruits owing to the fact that the cost of becoming a pilot far outweighs the rewards. Even the most hardcore of aviation enthusiasts will have a hard time justifying 100k of training for a 40k a year job.

Just stop your argument right there.

What you are saying we shouldn't fear happening has happened. Isn't the Jetstar cadetship costing well over $100k including type rating and the pay only about $40k per year. It gets worse than that, in the home of cadetships, Europe, not only are cadets paying for their type ratings they are now paying for 500 hours line training. How long before this S**t comes to this part of the world. Where will it end?

PhoenixNZ, you're obviously new to aviation to be making some of the statements you've made.

I am not affected either way cadets or no cadets, BUT I do get annoyed when a scheme like this is being used to drive down terms and conditions in the aviation industry. People like you are being used as pawns to lower the standard of living of pilots while at the same time making some people in the training industry and some airline executives rich. Is it any surprise there is some vitriol towards this scheme?

I invite you to find out why this scheme was started? It certainly wasn't because there was a lack of pilots.

If your neither of the above I'd love to hear how your qualified to state how a Jetstar cadetship would negatively impact anyones future career opportunities.
Well that's a no brainer. It's going to affect your opportunities for a better lifestyle for a start.

Good luck to you for whatever you do or where ever you go. I would be very interested to see honest review of your thoughts on your aviation career progression and lifestyle in 5 or so years time.

remoak

26th Jul 2011, 11:37

Pilot shortage... I'll believe it when I see it, it has been coming forever

Well I've lived through two of them, trust me they are fun if you have experience...

PhoenixNZ

26th Jul 2011, 12:40

Just stop your argument right there.

What you are saying we shouldn't fear happening has happened. Isn't the Jetstar cadetship costing well over $100k including type rating and the pay only about $40k per year. It gets worse than that, in the home of cadetships, Europe, not only are cadets paying for their type ratings they are now paying for 500 hours line training. How long before this S**t comes to this part of the world. Where will it end?I believe the starting rate for a JQ cadet is actually around $64k, not $40k. This is also a STARTING rate and not the same as what you could be expected to earn over the entire course of your career.

In a way JQ is making a gamble through this kind of program. They are taking people with virtually no experience and gambling that they will work out to be valuable pilots.

Part of the JQ cadets program actually has JQ paying around 25% of the program cost.

Jetstar will provide you with sponsorship (AUD 21K) towards the training costs of the ACP, provided you stay with Jetstar for 6 years. In addition to this Jetstar will fund (up front) the remaining costs of the ACP program - this will be repaid to Jetstar by cadets over a period of 6 years whilst you are employed as a pilot operating for Jetstar.The above is from the JQ website.

So yes, you are paying for the majority of your training. Its not just a type rating BTW, its also CRM type training and skills training to help be sucessful in your career.

I'll be honest in that I dont know what the current 'normal' starting rate for a JQ F/O on a 320 is but effectively JQ is paying 21k to secure your services for six years.

And yes, JQ is most likely doing this as a cost cutting measure. Over the long term they get to employ F/O's on a lower starting rate than normal. In return however those F/Os gain considerable skills and experience which is able to be taken to any other airline they like. Skills and experience that they simply wont get if they instead spend those 6 years flying GA instead.

So its from my seat here a bit of give and take. You give up some starting pay in exchange for the experience that you simply wouldn't be able to get otherwise.

Well that's a no brainer. It's going to affect your opportunities for a better lifestyle for a start.Pilot demand is on the rise and the amount that any driver gets paid is based on the oldest economic model of all: Supply and Demand.

Take the predictions from Boeing for example. Thats a hell of a lot of people that the airlines need to find who are willing to spend the 100k in order to fly the big shiny things. Not to mention the fact that not everyone who wants to be a pilot actually has the skills in order to be sucessful.

Demand then starts to outstrip supply. Airlines start to pay their drivers more in order to retain them.

No, I'll admit I'm not some expert in the aviation industry but I'm certainly clued up enough to know things like simple economics and HR principles. From the HR perspective: you hire the guy with the best skills along with the best attitude. I fully intend to be that guy so I personally have no concerns with having more competition for any jobs because I have enough confidence in myself that its simply not going to matter.

Also I'd be interested if you could find something that backed up the theory that cadet programs over the UK have resulted in a decline in pay for those beyond the cadets. Have the FO's or the Capts started taking pay drops because of the programs resulting in the increase in supply? I would doubt it for the simple reason that airlines have no interest in losing all that established experience. Not the mention the PR disaster when the public start thinking the guys in the cockpit are unhappy because of ongoing pay disputes.

Luke SkyToddler

26th Jul 2011, 13:16

Remoak you're a pragmatic and sensible bloke but you have just made me laugh, by busting out that bloody Boeing pilot-shortage nonsense.

Your arguments so far have been

1 - it's OK to take the shafting, because it's still better than the shafting you'll receive in kiwi GA.

:ok: Can't argue with that.

( And while we're on the subject, all you guys who are now pointing the finger at Jetstar for lowering the bar, what have you been doing the last 40 years, while the cynical pr!cks in GA have been setting the bar so damn low in the first place. Why is it suddenly pure evil for Jetstar to pay 200 hour pilots a $50 grand salary, when the cheapskate flying schools and para drop operators and scenic charter companies all over the country have been paying their people sub minimum wage or zero for bloody decades, and nobody's cared or lifted a damn finger to help, least of all that bastion of pilot protection called NZALPA. If anyone is serious about trying to improve the lot of ALL pilots in this country, lets start by making a serious minimum award wage for GA and come down like a ton of bricks on people who try to get around it. Then at least young guys will have a realistic alternative option to cadet schemes like this. )

2 - It's OK to take the shafting, because it's better than being an unemployed uncurrent 200 hour wonder, and you never know when another 9/11 is just around the corner

:ok: Can't argue with that either.

3 - it's OK to take the shafting, because there's a huge pilot shortage around the corner and you want to be ready for it

:hmm: errrrr ... no. Sorry bro but going down that road just leads to madness and misery and flying school marketing hype. The "upcoming pilot shortage" has been the cause of more unemployed CPL holders, unpaid student loans, "C" cat exploitation, and certain :mad: ers at flying schools getting rich at sucker's expense, than just about anything else I can think of on this earth.

If I thought for a second that good times were just about to roll, I'd be doing the exact opposite, I'd be telling these guys NOT to take the scheme and hold out for better. Sadly, I don't think that is the case at all.

Phoenix : Also I'd be interested if you could find something that backed up the theory that cadet programs over the UK have resulted in a decline in pay for those beyond the cadets. Have the FO's or the Capts started taking pay drops because of the programs resulting in the increase in demand?

Short answer is, F/O's yes, definitely, captains not really. Do your research and you'll find that F/O's at Easy and Ryan were paid a lot more in the '90s than they are now. Mainly because once a cadet scheme gets well established, they simply stop hiring people on the "old" F/O contracts altogether. They didn't really introduce the cadet schemes until post 9/11, they used to hire experienced guys to the right seat up to that point and then changed their policy it seems. Captains have a lot more power to resist that kind of nonsense, if F/O's go on strike then Michael O'leary has a tendency to just sack them outright or deny them their upgrades or something, he's got a lot less power to do that to the captains, although he talks tough.

WheelsandBrakes

26th Jul 2011, 13:44

To PhoenixNZ

"airlines have no interest in losing all that established experience. Not the mention the PR disaster when the public start thinking the guys in the cockpit are unhappy because of ongoing pay disputes."

Maybe you need to check out the comments of Alan Joyce, the CEO of Qantas, with reference to the pilots they employ - called them "kamikazis". QF Long-haul pilots have now voted for industrial action for the first time in 45 years. He doesn't give a toss about their experience or what the public thinks. Unlikely the CEO's of other airlines in the world are any different.

Good luck with whatever you decide. Hope you don't get shafted too often!

27/09

26th Jul 2011, 22:28

PhoenixNZ
I believe the starting rate for a JQ cadet is actually around $64k, not $40k. This is also a STARTING rate and not the same as what you could be expected to earn over the entire course of your career.

Unless there have been major changes to orginal Jetstar cadet deal that was being discussed the salary was indeed about 60K NZD BUT with Jetstar taking repayments out of the salary for some of the training they had helped fund. This made the actual salary paid about 40K NZD possibly less, I saw figures of 24K AUD equivalent being bandied about. Plus you could expect to live in cities like Darwin where the cost of living is quite high and still be able to service the debt on the loan you had from your training. This salary was to continue for the duration of the 6 year bonding period with no guarantee of employment after that 6 year period. Tell me at the end of 6 years that it was such a smart deal.

Pilot demand is on the rise and the amount that any driver gets paid is based on the oldest economic model of all: Supply and Demand.

Very true. That's why cadets get shafted so easily, there's a bountiful supply of hopefuls prepared to spend a bucket load of their money or their parents money or most likely borrowed money to get a job flying a shiny jet. As I mentioned previously in Europe now it's gone way past paying for type ratings, (something that was almost unheard of many years ago) to cadets paying for "500 hours line training". How long before we see that sort of thing here?

Give me a break, 500 hours line training!!!!!!!!! FFS if some new pilot needs 500 hours line training they should be looking for another career. This is purely and simply a way for greedy unscrupulous airline mangers to reduce their costs and increase their profits. The Jetstar cadet scheme is just another money making venture to ensure a steady supply of pilots so that there is no need to pay a worthwhile salary.

PhoenixNZ, I've asked this question before but you have chosen not to answer it. Why do you think Jetstar have started this cadet scheme when there is a already a supply of suitable pilots to sit in the right hand seat?

PhoenixNZ

26th Jul 2011, 23:12

PhoenixNZ, I've asked this question before but you have chosen not to answer it. Why do you think Jetstar have started this cadet scheme when there is a already a supply of suitable pilots to sit in the right hand seat? Because its a way for them to get qualified pilots to fly their planes for a cheaper cost. I'm not denying that at all.

In return: Why is getting a type rating on a popular aircraft along with significant hours on type a negative for the cadet concerned?

Why is a starting rate of $64k a year (thats the amount your getting paid, yes you have to pay back your loan but salary is salary) a negative thing.

Why should a new CPL go into instructing for 30k a year or even GA for 40k a year (if your lucky) when they can go into Jetstar for 64k a year and come out with far more relevant airline experience than instructing or GA?

It seems 27/09 that you are focussed on comparing old JQ F/O to new JQ F/O pay rates.

I'm instead comparing new JQ F/O pay rates to instructor or GA pay rates. Also factoring in the the experience and hours and type ratings you end up with at the end of it. In this regard JQ beats GA hands down in all areas concerned.

sumtingwong

26th Jul 2011, 23:21

Remoak you say,

Now go and work out the training capacity for all those new pilots. Guess what... supply doesn't even come close to matching demand. In fact it is going to be a major issue for airlines. Pilots are going to be in serious demand.Agreed, where we part dramatically in view is; This upcoming shortage is precisely why the likes of Jetstar are frantically trying to lower T+C's and then to LOCK the victim into these T+C's.

This "locking in" of appalling terms is achieved in numerous ways,

1/ Get em while they're young in aviation experience (haven't had to take any pineapples yet so will be far less wary when first asked to bend over).

2/ Bond them for years

3/ Keep em on the financial treadmill by paying just enough to get by, but never ahead.

4/ Also I suspect every couple of years or so, there will be a requirement to relocate to another base at the large expense of the cadet (plus the uprooting of the family, lost jobs etc.). You know just to remind them who's boss.

5/ The ATPL question remains. These guys MAY not be upgradable at the end of their bond period. Whadayareckon Jetstar will do with them then? :E

Di_Vosh

26th Jul 2011, 23:46

Phoenix,

Why is a starting rate of $64k a year (thats the amount your getting paid, yes you have to pay back your loan but salary is salary) a negative thing.

Mate, if it makes you feel better to say "I'm on a 64k salary", then good luck to you! :hmm: But when you're paying around 1/3 of it back to the company to be on an effective 40k for six years, then you're only fooling yourself.

Last I heard, rents in Darwin are around $200 - $250 pw for one room in a shared flat! Care to do the math on that and see how much money you've got in your pocket?

(Suggest you do some research on the Colgan air crash in Buffalo NY in Feb 2009. IMHO, the main cause behind the crash was fatigue. No wonder really, as both crew were paid so badly they couldn't live in the city where they were based. The captain commuted from Seattle to NY, and the FO commuted from Florida to NY. :eek:)

Sure, you'll be flying an A320, setting yourself up for the great jet job somewhere overseas for 150K, blah blah blah...

What this really translates to is that you're about to go on a career path that will have you flying jets while living in a hole, eating 2min noodles and scrounging around the Flight Attendants stations on turnarounds looking for extra food.

Live the dream!

theheadmaster

27th Jul 2011, 00:04

And in six years time that overseas airline is only going to offer 'just enough' to attract the $64K crowd. That $150K job is only going to be $100K by then. The same market forces that dictate that JStar is only going to pay just above GA wages to attract a cadet is going to be at work for Middle East and Asian carriers recruting FOs from 2nd tier carriers. Hence the cycle (or spiral dive) continues. Things look good if you are only capable of looking one step in to the future, but if you are able to project more than that, the picture starts to look grim.

Here endeth the lesson...

PhoenixNZ

27th Jul 2011, 01:13

HomeJames

27th Jul 2011, 01:36

Hullo there

I will answer your question with a question...

If you are a huge sellout scab, and no-one is here to tell you that, are you still a sellout scab?

Fantastic how you attempt to use the 'what's best for my family line' in an attempt to justify your self serving position. if you indeed had your family's best interest in mind, you wouldn't be getting into aviation with a very young family.

But to answer your question, paying for type ratings has been happening for over 10 years now in Aus. Before this time however, there seemed to be some weight placed on EXPERIENCE instead of one's ability to bend over and accept pineapples sans lube. But, disregard all this information as is doesn't agree with your concept of what you think aviation is.

Straight home and don't spare the horses.

theheadmaster

27th Jul 2011, 01:41

I recall talking to colleagues 15 years ago stating that the 'cadet' courses of the day would lead to this. I noted that if you took people with very little experience it would soon be a matter of time for the conditions offered being reduced to reflect the value of the asset. Getting people to self-fund and reduce conditions further is the next logical step.

This process has been evolving for a lot longer than your 10 year time frame Phoenix.

PhoenixNZ

27th Jul 2011, 01:47

So HomeJames we should do whats best for the existing drivers instead of whats best for ourselves?

No one is selling out. Your saying that people should decline an opportunity simply because it doesn't fit with your version of what aviation is.

Dont blame a guy for taking an opportunity that you dont like. Blame instead the people who offered the opportunity in the first place.

Industries change over time. Aviation has been fairly static in this regarding for quite some time. Now the change is coming and all those existing drivers are simply averse to a change that they dont like. Sorry but maybe those drivers simply need to harden up and make the best of it.

Cadets are the new way forward for airline training. You dont have to like it but if you dont accept it you'll simply be a dinosaur waiting for extinction.

If however you can think of an alternative way for airlines to achieve the required result of reducing costs while maintaining saftey and service, feel free to tell them. Or express it here.

You all like to knock cadet schemes and yet no one has as yet given an alternative other than to maintain the status quo which was established 40 years ago. Clearly the status quo isn't working for the airlines like it used to.

Swimbetweentheflags

27th Jul 2011, 02:22

I have a question for you all:

If this scheme is so profitable and beneficial for JQ, why is it only being introduced now? As in why wasn't it introduced 10 years ago and why aren't ALL the airlines doing it?

From their Website
Jetstar Airways Pty Limited is a wholly owned subsidiary of the Qantas Group, with its Australian low fare operations first commencing in May 2004.

Short answer they werent even frikkin around 10 years ago :ugh:

Interesting to not Phoenix's location and which just so happens to coincide with the where CTC are who are doing the training for Ab-initio and Advanced cadets. So maybe hes defending the program deep from within their own bunkers in downtown Hamilton NZ.

If the status quo is changing how about a cadet scheme for Airline Executive positions? Now sign me up for that :ok:

If times are tough like they say I will believe it when the very top starts taking pay cuts to their salaries and bonuses.

theheadmaster

27th Jul 2011, 02:32

Phoenix, costs are going down, but so is service, safety and conditions. You might be happy to be on the conditions you sign up for. Good for you. Now, in five years time, what will you do if someone states they are happy to do your job for 30% less? What is your response when they tell you to 'harden up and make the best of it'?

Market forces are what is driving conditions down. Attitudes like yours make the job of airline management easy. These guys are good at manipulating your joy of aviation in to their reduced bottom line. That is what they are trained at doing. Pilots are good at flying aircraft and making conservative short term decisions. With a little cooperation and intelligence we can help stop this rot. Nobody wants to take your job away, in fact what guys are arguing for is to help you maximise the pay you can get for the job you love doing.

Unfortunately, everyone who accepts lower conditions than the guy ahead of them reduces not only their own conditions, but also everyone else in the industry and reduces your own chances of that next well paying job.

I guess, as a group, pilots are too dumb to use the market forces in their own favour rather than being shafted by much more savvy management.

PhoenixNZ

27th Jul 2011, 02:33

Some people have lost sight of a few very very simple truths:

1. JQ and every other airline in the world are COMPANIES. The sole purpose of a company is to make money. You make money by increasing profits and reducing costs.

2. A company will reach a point where its unable to reduce costs any further because the employees will simply rebel and they will have a company with no staff or ineffective staff.

3. A company can only run this sort of program as long as there are people there willing to take it up. So clearly there is a significant demand for this sort of program in order for it to exist in the first place.

I repeat my previous challenge to all those drivers out there who dislike the cadets who are taking up this sort of program:

Put yourselves back in the shoes you were in when you started your career in GA. If you were offered this program would you honestly have said not because of the same reasons your telling me that I should say no?

craka

27th Jul 2011, 02:35

They will only hire DECs until they have enough experienced F/Os to upgrade. I doubt the DEC recruitment will last more than a year, and by the time those cadets are ready for commands, DECs will be a distant memory.

remoak - they have plenty of FOs with the company time and 1000's of hours on heavy jets that would meet command requirements yet they seem to be advertising for DECs why?

theheadmaster

27th Jul 2011, 02:39

OK Phoenix, use your company analogy and think of yourself as a company. You have a service to sell. How are you going to get the best price for that service if there is competition? Ask Qantas, they set up a cartel and fixed the price ;) You see, they don't play by the rules.

PhoenixNZ

27th Jul 2011, 03:00

Now, in five years time, what will you do if someone states they are happy to do your job for 30% less? What is your response when they tell you to 'harden up and make the best of it'?

I wouldn't be happy about it. But I wouldn't be telling that person who is going to apply for the job that they shouldn't because I dont like it if they feel that its the best thing for them at the time.

I'm not asking anyone to be happy about cadet schemes. By all means dislike the schemes. But disliking those who use those schemes is just petty. Why should you dislike someone for taking the opportunity that best suited them at the time?

Market forces are what is driving conditions down. Attitudes like yours make the job of airline management easy. These guys are good at manipulating your joy of aviation in to their reduced bottom line. That is what they are trained at doing. Pilots are good at flying aircraft and making conservative short term decisions. With a little cooperation and intelligence we can help stop this rot. Nobody wants to take your job away, in fact what guys are arguing for is to help you maximise the pay you can get for the job you love doing.

An attitude of I want to take the best opportunities I can? Your assuming that if the cadet scheme were to fail that the airlines wouldn't do something else like simply give everyone a pay cut.

The airlines want to reduce costs one way or another and if this way doesn't work they will without a doubt try other ways which may well be less pleasant. Less hours, less pay, less fringe benefits.

At least this way the existing pilots arent negatively impacted in their current roles. None of them to my knowledge has had any pay cuts recently or any major reduction in hours in favour of the new cadets. Especially seeing as their contracts would make it very very difficult for JQ or any other airline to do that.

Unfortunately, everyone who accepts lower conditions than the guy ahead of them reduces not only their own conditions, but also everyone else in the industry and reduces your own chances of that next well paying job.

The simple truth is that if I dont accept the cadetship there are ten other people behind me who will. Therefore what do I gain by declining?

I guess, as a group, pilots are too dumb to use the market forces in their own favour rather than being shafted by much more savvy management.

Your probably not far off to be honest. If drivers really wanted to stop these kind of cadet schemes then they likely have it within their power to do so. The fact that they choose not to either means they are lazy or stupid. Take your pick.

In the mean time those of us new to the industry will simply make the most of what we have.

If a GA job were to pay the same as an airline job at the start then I'd happily take either a GA or airline job. But it simply isn't the case.

Water Wings

27th Jul 2011, 03:06

Some people have lost sight of a few very very simple truths:
Some people should maybe learn a bit more about the industry before knocking back what many are saying.

1. JQ and every other airline in the world are COMPANIES. The sole purpose of a company is to make money. You make money by increasing profits and reducing costs.

A simplifed view on things as is my fairly well known statement, you have to spend money to make money.
2. A company will reach a point where its unable to reduce costs any further because the employees will simply rebel and they will have a company with no staff or ineffective staff.
Reducing costs is something managers look at doing in the short term because their KPI's (and pay often!) are tied to it and they don't give a s*^t about the medium to long term because they know they will be gone by then. Have a read of some academic journals and studies. Plenty of case studies out there where reducing costs to try and improve the figures on the books had the opposite effect e.g. Delta early 90's, Continental pre Gordon Bethune. A longer term plan for costs savings is a very different kettle of fish.
3. A company can only run this sort of program as long as there are people there willing to take it up. So clearly there is a significant demand for this sort of program in order for it to exist in the first place
So if you and everyone else take a stand, all of a sudden there is no one willing to "take it up" and the company has no choice but to improve conditions!

Put yourselves back in the shoes you were in when you started your career in GA. If you were offered this program would you honestly have said not because of the same reasons your telling me that I should say no?

My take on Cadet schemes has changed significantly in recent times. I out and out despised them till seeing the guys coming out of them and realising that actually, they are alright guys just trying to make it and of that I have no problem. What I do have an issue with is signing up to a scheme that puts you on lower terms and conditions than the rest of the crew for doing the same job. Don't throw out the line about "it's about gaining experience." Bulls*^t! If the company wants to do something legitimate and fair it could look at putting in a lower tier payscale whilst you gain more experience but still keep you on an existing contract with the same terms and conditions as everyone else doing the same job. The fact they don't want to should speak volumes!

donkey123

27th Jul 2011, 03:15

PhoenixNZ

Whilst I don't necessarily agree with all of your points. Good on you for putting your head above the parapet. You come across well researched and offer balanced, well thought out arguments.

I guess what I am saying is that you seem very switched on to me.

This is the bit that worries me most...

theheadmaster

27th Jul 2011, 03:17

I don't expect you, or people like you, not to take the jobs. That is not realistic and I don't expect it to happen. I am just trying to explain your position (pawn) in the big game. Airlines only make money if the big jets are in the air, and they cannot do it if the pilots withdraw their labour. It is the job of those already in the industry to put their balls on the line and do something about it. That is in fact what Qantas pilots are trying to do right now. What it will take to make industry wide change is for people like you to recognize the dangers and unsustainability of the present trend and be ready to do what is necessary to preserve conditions when you have the job, rather than shrug your shoulders and say it is inevitable and leave the hard work to others. Remember that the high starting point for conditions that are now being eroded did not happen by chance. They were fought for and won by people who were willing to stand up for themselves. Conditions will continue to erode while people are unwilling to stand up for themselves.

Flt.Lt Zed

27th Jul 2011, 03:19

PhoenixNZ

27th Jul 2011, 03:47

PHOENIX. In 18 months,assuming you pass all your exams,checks,medicals etc you may well be in Auckland flying the Jet, earning 64k less 20k loan repayment. How will you support a wife and 2 kids given the cost of accommodation and living there for the next 6 years [until loans repayed]. Youll be ok, dont think the wife will be impressed. wont be too many zoo trips.

Given that its a 61k loan paid off over six years I think your math may be a little off there =)

In saying this how is it any different to taking a GA job for 30k or 40k a year? Same net pay at the end but the GA job doesn't see me getting time in an A320. Not to mention its entirely possible that I'd still have to pay my own type rating which I'd have to do through a personal loan generating 15% interest P/A (if I'm lucky to get that sort of rate).

Regarding staying on the same contract/pay. Yes, if I continue with Jetstar after six years its entirely possible nothing would change. But I'm again confident in my own abilities that either Jetstar would be willing to put me on a standard contract to keep my services or to otherwise find another job for either equal or better pay with better advancement opportunities.

It all comes down to how much you believe in yourself that you can get where you want to go. I have complete faith that I can get into a job doing and paying what I want. It wont be easy by any means but I know I'll get there in the end.

Flt.Lt Zed

27th Jul 2011, 04:01

Phoenix.
''Given that its a 61k loan paid off over six years I think your math may be a little off there =)''

A CPL, MEIR, 250HRS, PLUS the a320 type rating for 61k ???? check your adding. The a320 rating is 40k alone....

PhoenixNZ

27th Jul 2011, 04:16

The only portion being repaid to JQ is the ACP program which is $61k. The rest is a student loan which you would pay off regardless of what job you went into.

Flt.Lt Zed

27th Jul 2011, 04:22

Ok....how big will the student loan be?
Is it worth all that debt for a job netting 40-50k?? in the first 6 years.

PhoenixNZ

27th Jul 2011, 04:26

Ok....how big will the student loan be?
Is it worth all that debt for a job netting 40-50k?? in the first 6 years.

Basically your arguement then its that no one should get into aviation because it doesn't matter what route you go down, your first 5-6 years are going to be at that rate.

My loan will be around 80k and I'm not getting it for the pay rate at the start but rather the one you get later down the track.

Its also becaue of the career that I want to be in. Sure I could get a 30k loan for business studies and probably end up making more money that I ever will as a pilot. But I wont be doing the job that I love every day.

theheadmaster

27th Jul 2011, 04:38

You have just bought in to the lie. If you have demonstrated that you are willing to work for $64K NZ and have noted that there are plenty more willing to work for those conditions, how can you be confident that you can get a higher paying job after a few years? Like I said earlier, project this trend forward a few more steps and you will see that the big expat airlines are only going to pay just enough to temp pilots to their shores. As the pay rate for second tier airlines in the first world goes down, so the pay for these expat jobs will go down proportionately. Add to that, the new guy coming in at the bottom of JStar on the new Multi-crew licence cadetship (or whatever the industry manages to get past the regulator by then) will be even less experienced and willing to work for even less than you, threatening your already piss poor condions.

10/10 for enthusiasm
10/10 for naivety

Good luck...

HomeJames

27th Jul 2011, 04:41

If I wasn't so sure you are an idiot, I would think you are an internet troll.

I do believe it was Mark Twain that said

"Don’t argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"

Good day, you poor misguided fool. I hope for your family's sake you come to your senses before it is too late

PhoenixNZ

27th Jul 2011, 04:58

HomeJames
Do you lack the ability to engage in mature debate without resorting to calling people names for disagreeing with your perspective?

Headmaster
Yes, they pay slightly more to attact pilots which in turn forces other airlines to also pay more than that to attract pilots and so on and so on.

But this debate has probably run its course. Neither of us can say with absolute certainty what the outcome of cadet programs will be as neither of us posses a crystal ball. I'll keep following the track that I feel will result in a good career and income for myself and my family. Given that I've come from an income of around $33k prior to my training I dont see any circumstances where I'm worse off.

Swimbetweentheflags

27th Jul 2011, 04:58

Jetstar saw this guy coming from miles away and stuck their glossy brochures in front of his eyes and dazzled him with the BS spin and told him just how wonderful their job would be.
And yep he bought it hook line and sinker.
Good luck seems you are sold on it hope all works out.

And further testament to how great these guys are to work for.:}
True story from a friend who applied for this money fleecing scheme a while back.
Asked to go to NZ for interviews etc at own cost.
Week later was told sorry you have been unsuccesful blah blah.
Few days later rung up again asked to come in for another interview this time in Aus again at own expense. Nice way to screw some money out of a potential employee then tell them oh now we dont want you, oh but hang on pay us some more $$$$ for another interview WTF !!! :=

theheadmaster

27th Jul 2011, 05:12

Hmm, expat airlines paying just enough to attract JStar NZ pilots does not force other carriers to pay more. People are happy to leave the desert for lower conditions to get home. This is about step 4 or 5 down the path that you have not thought about. People who have made some money overseas before the conditions were eroded are in a position to work for less, because they want to get home and have paid for their kid's schooling, bought plenty of toys and have paid off the house. It is already happening, my friend, and it is another reason why you will probably never snag that high-paying aviation job.

By all means dream the dream, but you are arguing with guys here that know the industry and the nature of enthusiastic wannabee pilots.

PhoenixNZ

27th Jul 2011, 05:38

In all fairness you know your own perceptions of the industry. Cadets are something new for out section of the industry and only time will tell how they impact it.

Even without the cadets programs its still a huge financial contribution to get through AB Initio which is what will still deter a huge number of aviation wannabes.

theheadmaster

27th Jul 2011, 05:46

Every post you make reinforces that perception. All you have to hang your hat on is your confidence in your ability to find a higher paying job at some time in the future whilst ignoring the mechanics of what is driving the wage pressures.

PhoenixNZ

27th Jul 2011, 05:47

No I just see a different story unfolding to you.

My view is that yes, wages will most likely be lower than they are currently because the airlines are unable to sustain them currently.

However I certainly dont believe that they will decrease to the extents you feel because if they do airlines will be unable to find new pilots as the cost of becoming one will far outweigh the reward.

I personally dont mind that much whether in the future I'm earning 100k or 150k. Either way its considerably more than what I earned prior to flying and at the same time I'm getting to do the job I love.

HomeJames

27th Jul 2011, 05:55

On the contrary Phoenix, if there was any mature debate here I would happily engage. All I see here is a wannabe telling us all how it is with no basis for his opinions other than an overactive and terminally optimistic imagination. But you know better of course.

Furthermore, I should congratulate you, you have also just joined a very exclusive club, my ignore list.

Split Flap

27th Jul 2011, 05:58

My view is that yes, wages will most likely be lower than they are currently because the airlines are unable to sustain them currently.

Why dont you explain to us all here with your wealth of experience, how you know this? Most are sustaining profits despite record fuel prices.

However I certainly dont believe that they will decrease to the extents you feel because if they do airlines will be unable to find new pilots as the cost of becoming one will far outweigh the reward.

That point has already been reached in my opinion. Just people with SJS not facing the fact.
Look forward to seeing you bleating and moaning on here in a few years time because you can't afford a decent lifestyle. And you are fatigued all the time.

Most of my uni mates make more than me. And I'm on a better deal than J*

Wish I had never got into the game really.

Good luck with your new career. In my opinion you will need it.

remoak

27th Jul 2011, 06:00

LukeST

errrrr ... no. Sorry bro but going down that road just leads to madness and misery and flying school marketing hype.

Ok that quote was slightly tongue in cheek, but having said that I do tend to agree with their forecast. I did a lot of research for a project I was involved in a while back, in the airline training area, and every credible forecast says more or less the same thing: there WILL be a pilot shortage over the next 20 years. Many of the people saying it have nothing to gain by so doing, and you will note that airlines like Air NZ are gearing up to do their own ab initio training. Why do you think they are doing that?

27/09

PhoenixNZ, I've asked this question before but you have chosen not to answer it. Why do you think Jetstar have started this cadet scheme when there is a already a supply of suitable pilots to sit in the right hand seat?

They are learning the lessons of history. When this sort of expansion happened in Europe, experienced F/Os moved on to better gigs extremely quickly and this left the airlines exposed. Having a large pool of pilots that you can reasonably expect to be around for five years or so, brings a lot of stability to the pilot workforce. Not to mention that it gives you a large pool of command prospects.

Sumtingwong

Agreed, where we part dramatically in view is; This upcoming shortage is precisely why the likes of Jetstar are frantically trying to lower T+C's and then to LOCK the victim into these T+C's.

Interesting then, that the first and by far the most successful low-cost carrier, Southwest Airlines, learned long ago that bleeding their pilots doesn't work, and that a happy, engaged workforce is what makes their company money. That's why their pilots are extremely well paid, complete with profit share, and most own a chunk of the company they work for. This is the road the other low-cost carriers will have to tread if they want to be successful. I'm pretty sure that Jetstar aren't blind to that.

I love that you think that Jetstar's only purpose in life is to shaft cadets, and then keep on shafting them in some Orwellian plot to subjugate them. Might make a fun movie, but it isn't real life.

Di Vosh

What this really translates to is that you're about to go on a career path that will have you flying jets while living in a hole, eating 2min noodles and scrounging around the Flight Attendants stations on turnarounds looking for extra food.

And what is the alternative? Flying crappy old geriatric GA aircraft while living in a hole, eating 2min noodles and scrounging around the aero club skip looking for extra food. Hmmm I know which I'd choose!

HomeJames

Fantastic how you attempt to use the 'what's best for my family line' in an attempt to justify your self serving position.

Yeah, right. And before you embarked on your flying career, you carefully assessed the impact of your ambition on those ahead of you in their careers? Thought hard about how your career choice may affect more senior pilots? Mulled over how your choices might affect the families of other flight crew?

No, you didn't. You are just as self-serving as the guy you are criticising. Just like virtually every other pilot here.

theheadmaster

I recall talking to colleagues 15 years ago stating that the 'cadet' courses of the day would lead to this.

Yeah and I recall being told in school that we were headed for a global ice age...

They were fought for and won by people who were willing to stand up for themselves.

Ah yes please remind us all how it went in '89...

how can you be confident that you can get a higher paying job after a few years? Like I said earlier, project this trend forward a few more steps and you will see that the big expat airlines are only going to pay just enough to temp pilots to their shores.

It's simple. Experience is worth money. Good experience and no incidents is worth a lot of money. Have a look at the Emirates payscales. Many of their recruits have about the experience Phoenix will have in 5 years. Yes, the big expat airlines... well, ALL airlines actually... are only going to pay what they have to. However, the trend is currently pretty healthy. If we do see an appreciable shortage develop - and it has several times in the last 30 years - the trend will climb sharply. Your model doesn't work because it is essentially terminally pessimistic, which is not where the industry is going.

craka

they have plenty of FOs with the company time and 1000's of hours on heavy jets that would meet command requirements yet they seem to be advertising for DECs why?

Probably so that they can get rid of them again when they have upgraded some F/Os, or because they predict a short-term Captain shortage. Either that, or all their F/O's are crap!

Flt.Lt Zed

PHOENIX. In 18 months,assuming you pass all your exams,checks,medicals etc you may well be in Auckland flying the Jet, earning 64k less 20k loan repayment. How will you support a wife and 2 kids given the cost of accommodation and living there for the next 6 years [until loans repayed]. Youll be ok, dont think the wife will be impressed. wont be too many zoo trips.

And what would he be earning as an instructor or GA pilot? Probably less, with no prospects at all.

theheadmaster

27th Jul 2011, 06:26

PhoenixNZ

27th Jul 2011, 06:40

I have plenty of life experience thank you and if its one thing that I've learned its that your attitude has a strong impact on reality.

Positive people are far more likely to get ahead in life than the pessimists.

I see your points and I can understand your logic behind them as well Headmaster. However your points are largely based on a pessimistic view that airlines are only interested in screwing cadets over along with the airline industry is going to be getting worse rather than better.

I perhaps have more faith that while yes, airlines do want to reduce costs where they can, that they are not simply out there to make life miserable for cadets for their own money gains.

HomeJames

27th Jul 2011, 07:04

Thankyou remoak, that was marvelously presumptuous of you. Having a grandfather and uncle before me in aviation, a sense of worth and overall awareness about aviation was instilled in me from the time I could talk.

I have never accepted sub award conditions, never paid for any training after CPL and never undercut another pilot. On the other hand I have had people offer to do my current and prior jobs for half of my salary.

But no, please feel free to pigeonhole me based on my objection to someone flying an aircraft that is 5 times the size of mine at a third of the wage and the long term implications of this.

Actually, this is rather futile. It is my sincere hope that anyone who chooses to work for Jetstar gets exactly what they wish for.

diablo_caliente

27th Jul 2011, 07:04

PhoenixNZ,

you wonder boy you! All these posts coming from a 26yo guy without any aviation experience. Hmmmm 26 are we? Really?

You seem to have a firm hold of the industry and a bunch of well balance posts for someone who claims to be a "Jit" star cadet.

Think you're trying a little hard with the sales pitch. Your time is up, now go back to your poxy HR office.

theheadmaster

27th Jul 2011, 07:14

You need to open your horizons a little Phoenix. It is not the cadets that airline management are trying to screw, it is anybody and anything that gets in their way of making a personal profit. Geoff Dixon was happy to screw the entire airline to line his pockets. My argument is not anti-cadet, it is anti-short term greed oriented management. They are in it for themselves and do not play by the gentlemanly rules that you and I would if given a chance. Enthusiastic peolple willing to sacrifice themselves just makes it that much easier for them. They will push employees to reduce conditions until employees push back.

Yes, I agree that optimism generally gets you further in life than pessimism. Use that optimism to become active in a union to improve your conditions. The GA attitude of improving your conditions by quitting your current employer and working for someone else when your experience improves is the old way. Smart management is on to that modus operandi and they use it to their advantage. In all forms of conflic you must adapt to survive. You accuse us old fellas of being unable to adapt to the new ways, but it is this GA attitude that is the old way, and it is not going to get the results anymore.

I suspect I am quite a bit older than you, with plenty of heavy jet experience. I can see the writing on the wall and I am actively re-skilling myself rather than hoping I can get an elusive good paying overseas job should things go belly up. Hopefully I will not have to use it and can remain doing what I love.

remoak

27th Jul 2011, 07:20

Interesting argument remoak. You state that conditions will improve because experience is valuable. You criticise my statement about observations of cadet courses, yet it is simply the same argument logically applied to lack of experience. That is, if experience is valuable and worth paying for, providing a product that is inexperienced will attract less pay. I thought it was a pretty simple observation back then.

Not quite. I am saying that good, incident-free experience is valuable as a stand-alone commodity. Conditions improve or deteriorate with market forces - so when pilots are in short supply, their nominal value rises. If you try and apply the argument in reverse, you would arrive at the conclusion that when there is a surplus of pilots, they have no value. This is clearly not the case - the pilot has no value to the airline at that particular time, but may well have immense value six months later. Possibly a slightly obscure point...

Anyway, I would agree with you that a pilot with a bare type rating and no experience has very little value and could expect to be paid very little. The same pilot, with experience, is worth a lot more. The value lies in the experience, not the type rating.

This is not an unusual concept. Ask anyone who has ever undertaken an apprenticeship, it is basically exactly the same model as what Jetstar are offering. New apprentices earn very, very little. They know they are paying for their experience and qualifications via salary sacrifice, but they ALSO know that, in the long run, they will make it back up in spades. Ask any plumber or engineer if their pay and conditions improved as their experience grew. As I said, the concept is not new. It is just new to pilots (well, in Australia and NZ at any rate).

Hopefully those lessons will be put to good use in the upcoming action by QF pilots.

And hopefully Julia has less balls than Bob...

My guess is that the Qantas pilots will fold. Long memories and all that.

Granted, conditions are much more likely to improve if there is a skill shortage, but only if we manage ourselves well, oil does not run out and the USA does not implode in a debt and borrowing sinkhole dragging the whole world with it.

Maybe. As I mentioned earlier, in 1988 I saw my salary increase by 37%. I didn't ask for it, the airline offered it in an attempt to hold onto their pilot workforce, which was rapidly haemorraging away as the bigger airlines went into a hiring frenzy. We had a pilot workforce of about 650, and in one single week had 39 resignations. Union activity was completely unnecessary, we just told the company what we wanted, and we got it.

Two years later, 600 UK pilots were unemployed and conditions were under pressure (although they never really got any worse).

Five years after that, it was boom time again. Salaries and conditions went up. Airlines struggled to find crews. Guys that had been scraping a living in Bandeirantes suddenly found themselves flying 767s... and so on.

Unfortunately, most of the people jumping up and down on PhoenixNZ's head are simply trying to protect their own interests. Nobody gives a toss about his career, it's all about some nebulous benefit for his elders and betters. Most of these same people would have jumped at such an opportunity when they were younger and inexperienced. Such is the fundamentally selfish and self-centred nature of most pilots.

One day, Australia and NZ will wake up and realise that the world has fundamentally changed, and along with it the standard career path for young pilots. Nobody outside these shores believes that the only path to an airline career is many years in GA.

Time to move on...

PhoenixNZ

27th Jul 2011, 07:32

I would like to point out something:
No one here who is jumping all over me for daring to have a different opinion than the majority has actually answered the question I posed.

If you were in my position when you started your aviation career and you had the same opportunity to go direct to airline after training, would you pass that up?

As remoak has pointed out, the cadets program is no different at all to any other industry that runs apprenticeships. You start out young, inexperienced and under paid. As your experience grows, generally so will your salary otherwise you start looking for other employers when you enter as a employee rather than an apprentice.

diablo:
PhoenixNZ,

you wonder boy you! All these posts coming from a 26yo guy without any aviation experience. Hmmmm 26 are we? Really?

You seem to have a firm hold of the industry and a bunch of well balance posts for someone who claims to be a "Jit" star cadet.

Think you're trying a little hard with the sales pitch. Your time is up, now go back to your poxy HR office.

And this is the problem with this discussion. One can't have an opposing opinion without being called a scab, sellout, HR employee, management wannabe etc etc etc.

Believe it or not people can actually have a different opinion than yourself while still being in the exact same role or aspiring to be in the exact same role.

Headmaster:
You need to open your horizons a little Phoenix. It is not the cadets that airline management are trying to screw, it is anybody and anything that gets in their way of making a personal profit. Geoff Dixon was happy to screw the entire airline to line his pockets. My argument is not anti-cadet, it is anti-short term greed oriented management. They are in it for themselves and do not play by the gentlemanly rules that you and I would if given a chance. Enthusiastic peolple willing to sacrifice themselves just makes it that much easier for them. They will push employees to reduce conditions until employees push back.

And dont worry, as soon as I'm at a point where I no longer consider myself inexperienced and effectively an apprentice I'll be pushing right along side you. I have no intention to simply stay on low rates for the rest of my life because management think they can keep me on some poxy contract. I'm simply happy to accept the poxy contract to start with while I build the experience, reputation and skills I need to push my case further.

remoak

27th Jul 2011, 07:44

Phoenix me old china...

If you were in my position when you started your aviation career and you had the same opportunity to go direct to airline after training, would you pass that up?

Pointless question. Everybody here would, even the ones that won't admit it or try and hold some mythical moral high ground on the subject.

The truth is, most pilots would eat their young to get the gig, usually while denying it.

theheadmaster

27th Jul 2011, 07:45

As far as Julia having less balls than Bob, a funny comment I admit, but the situation is fundamentally different with regard to the industrial climate, legislation, and the tactics being employed. Like it or not, it is the success or not of the current action being undertaken by QF pilots that will determine the pay and conditions of all pilots in the region.

Phoenix, I hope you are right, but for that to be the case, airlines must value the experience you hope to gain. In the past airline magemengt was made up of people with industry experience of some sort. That is becoming less the case. MBA graduates who see a seat filled by a 200 hour pilot being worth the same as one with 15,000 hours are now filling those management positions and will not see the value of experience until it costs $.

I thought I answered at about post 93 with I don't expect you, or people like you, not to take the jobs. That is not realistic and I don't expect it to happen.

PhoenixNZ

27th Jul 2011, 07:53

Thats not answer whether you would have taken the cadetship if you were in that position. Simply that you dont begrudge those of us who do now.

But ultimately I'm not so concerned with your replies Headmaster. You have the ability to discuss the topic in a mature and reasonable fashion. It was more aimed at the others who come here and do nothing but bitch bitch bitch about the scheme while at the same time thinking that they would be taking it if it were an option when they started their careers.

Where I come from we call it hypocricy.

Luke SkyToddler

27th Jul 2011, 08:02

All you people ripping shreds off this lad and telling him why he shouldn't be doing this ... fair enough. You have made some strong points and some fair points. A lot of people giving him a lot of good reasons, what NOT to do.

I would now like to hear ONE SINGLE suggestion from everyone slating him, as to what he could do, instead, that would keep you guys happy and also enable him to get where he wants to be.

Seriously.

He's 26, and wants to get into aviation. Can't blame him for that. He's got a wife and kids so he needs to have at least some kind of an income, even a mediocre one. He's probably not going to be able to sell the missus on going c-catting at ardmore and clearing $50 a week. And the kids will be not be too keen on daddy shooting off to the Botswana swamps for a couple of years. All of us who did the hard yards, I would bet that most of us were a bit younger and didn't have families, and didn't mind sleeping in cars or whatever, this guy is in a bit of a different situation.

So let's hear it from all you guys knocking him, what else is there in New Zealand that a fresh CPL can do, not flash, but anything that pays the rent and puts bread on the table and clothes on the kids' backs for 3 or 4 years while he tries to get those hours he needs to apply for Link or whatever.

We all know the answer and it is, "SWEET :mad: ALL"

And that, my friends, is the real disgrace of NZ aviation. Not the Jetstar cadet program, which is nectar from heaven for guys in Phoenix's position.

Someone else said a couple of pages back, all Jetstar have to do to get overrun with applicants, is pay a little bit more than GA. And I agree. So now that it's actually happening and we all find that we don't like it, whose fault is it really? It's certainly not Phoenix's fault. It's not even Jetstar's fault for seeing the opportunity to save some money, and ripping into it, they are responsible to their shareholders not to us.

It's pathetic for us, who are long established in decent airline jobs and don't have to worry about money any more, to give these young guys no carrot and all stick.

Sadly that's all we've got to offer them, because WE are the ones who have let the industry get into such a goddam despicable sorry state for such a long time now.

big buddah

27th Jul 2011, 08:24

Are these figures correct?

$65,000 nzd - %10 student loan repayment = $58,500
$58,500 - NZ tax $9,520 = $48,980
$48,980 - jetstar repayment $20,000 = $28,980nzd

PhoenixNZ

27th Jul 2011, 08:25

No Buddah, the JQ repayment is only around 10k p/a
Also the student loan repayment is 10% of the amount above $19081.

Corrected figures:

$64000 base pay
$10000 JQ repayment
$12220 taxes
$4491 student loan payment

$37289 in hand per year or $717.96 per week.

big buddah

27th Jul 2011, 09:00

Ok thanks,

So the answer to the question would I do it? no.

I don't stand by the argument that just because they are doing it in Europe then it is the way of the future.

When I put my wings on I want to feel proud of my qualification and who I work for. Being a cadet for jetstar wouldn't make me feel proud of who I am and what I do.

$38k in the hand is a huge insult. You won't be able to live in Akl as single man, let alone with a family.
Then being bonded to jetstar for 6 years is signing your self a death warrant. They will move you and the family around at your expense.

Don't fool yourself into thinking that you'll take a shafting for 6 years to start your career, to reap the rewards later on? Who knows what the future holds for aviation?
Peak oil? read about it!
India is in the process of banning expat pilots.
Once Emirates finishes its hiring boom that will be it? for a long time?
Potentially leaving you stuck in the bottom of jetstar?

Don't fool yourself into believing that you can get in and then fight for a better deal later. By then there will be new accountants trying to find new ways to make you cheaper. All they will do is start bringing in those europeans that are paying for their 500hrs line flying that you say is ok and your contract will suddenly be terminated.

Don't think that once you get some experience you'll just go overseas and all we be ok! Want happens when your family says they want to stay in a first world country.

I have nothing against forking out cash for an investment, license, rating, endorsement etc but the jetstar cadet scheme is not a good investment it has no guarantees for the future. The return on capital is laughable.

In aviation always think about the now.

theheadmaster

27th Jul 2011, 09:08

If you really love flying, want security and reasonable income, what about the RNZAF?

waren9

27th Jul 2011, 09:14

I would love to be able to offer something constructive, but I just can't. I have read that cadet offer, and reading Remoak's posts I get the impression he hasn't.

Suffice to say that $717 per week for the next 6 years with every aspect of my life at (and I quote) "Jetstars absolute discretion", with no promises or prospects after that is not enough for me.

PhoenixNZ

27th Jul 2011, 09:15

I wear glasses and RNZAF require 20/20 vision unaided (or very close to it)

Also a training colleague of mine found this on CTC's website (yes, I'm training with CTC):

When do I start earning a salary? How much will that be?
Once you have successfully completed your Basic and Intermediate Training, the next stage is to complete Advanced Training. This comprises ground and simulator training followed by induction into Jetstar. You will then commence flying with the airline on the line, completing your line training.

For Jet Star New Zealand pilots your expected starting salary will be $62,000 for Years 1, 2 and 3. In Year 4 this will rise to $80,000. These salaries are based on you flying 850 Block hours per year. From this point onwards you will be on Jet Stars standard salary and bonus payment package

Now CTC can't just randomly put that information up without some sort of reasonable expectation that its true. Otherwise its false advertising which would result in serious trouble. So currently its expected that after three years you would be earning $80k and shortly after that you will be a standard FO, just like all the others.

PhoenixNZ

27th Jul 2011, 09:19

warren:

I would love to be able to offer something constructive, but I just can't. I have read that cadet offer, and reading Remoak's posts I get the impression he hasn't.

Suffice to say that $717 per week for the next 6 years with every aspect of my life at (and I quote) "Jetstars absolute discretion", with no promises or prospects after that is not enough for me.

Nothing in any of the three documents that were posted on page three mentioned anything about Jetstar retaining the right to change your home base location at their discretion without any discussion with the employee. If its in there and I've missed it then please feel free to point it out.

empacher48

27th Jul 2011, 09:27

I think you'll find the RNZAF don't mind you wearing glasses.. Well they didn't when I went through the selection process in 1998..

I was paid NZ$800 a week when I was working GA in NZ, to be paid less to fly an Airbus in NZ, when there are (mind you a small number) of GA operators who do pay pilots properly. With those GA operators, you are home every night and live in some pretty nice places around NZ and certainly aren't as expensive to live in as Auckland! Plus you'll get those nice basic skills you'll need later, like decision making and good old fashioned stick and rudder skills.

big buddah

27th Jul 2011, 09:27

Direct from the rishworth recruitment e-mail

Hold, or be eligible to hold an Australian ATPL

Payment
On commencement NZ$65,000
On completion of 1 year of service NZ$66,950
On completion of 2 years of service NZ$68,959

So why should a cadet get more than direct entry F/o?

See what your getting yourself involved with? You get experienced and this is what you'll get!

sumtingwong

27th Jul 2011, 09:29

Phoenix,
Nothing in any of the three documents that were posted on page three mentioned anything about Jetstar retaining the right to change your home base location at their discretion without any discussion with the employee. If its in there and I've missed it then please feel free to point it out.

Oh dear. I fear for your families future.

PhoenixNZ

27th Jul 2011, 10:37

Standard employment law. Unless you have something in your contract that requires you to do something, your not required to do it unless you agree to.

Of course they could go down the redundancy track which is possible but who knows. All I'm saying is that there is currently nothing that backs up a number of the statements that have been made during this discussion.

Swimbetweentheflags

27th Jul 2011, 11:30

I would now like to hear ONE SINGLE suggestion from everyone slating him, as to what he could do, instead, that would keep you guys happy and also enable him to get where he wants to be.

How about head to Northern Aus along with the hundreds of your Kiwi cousins bashing around in this country and join them flying metros,beeches,kingairs,conquests and many other machines earning substantially more than 38 k per year.
Plenty doing it and plenty more will keep doing it and having a blast gaining rock solid experience.

PhoenixNZ

27th Jul 2011, 11:48

Just so you guys are aware I'm by no means married to the idea of joining Jetstar. Simply from what I have seen at the moment its my best option available.

In saying that if there are other ideas out there that would suit then I'm more than happy to look into them.

Anyone know any good Aus/NZ pilot job websites?

ACT Crusader

27th Jul 2011, 11:50

Anyone know any good Aus/NZ pilot job websites?

www.qantasia.com..... :)

big buddah

27th Jul 2011, 12:06

Australian Federation of Air Pilots - AFAP - Pilot Jobs (http://www.afap.org.au/Jobs/Latest-Jobs/AFAP-Pilot-Jobs-.asp)

Dixons Cider

27th Jul 2011, 15:22

In saying that if there are other ideas out there that would suit then I'm more than happy to look into them.

Anyone know any good Aus/NZ pilot job websites?

Well based on your postings and if it were up to me, I wouldn't hire you. Wouldn't touch you with a barge pole.

Confident in your own abilities, positive attitude? Keep reading those self help books boy.

You liken the cadetship process to an apprenticeship - an apprentice knows to keep his head down, and mouth shut when required, and absorb knowledge from those around him.
You don't sound anything like an apprentice to me.

God help me if I ever have to share a flightdeck with the likes of you.

porch monkey

27th Jul 2011, 16:27

Basic employment law huh? That is just so blinkered on so many counts I don't know where to start. They own your arse mate. A sensation you need to get used to very quickly if you wish to go down their road. Suggest you read a recent history of the jetstar employment practices.

PhoenixNZ

27th Jul 2011, 22:07

God help me if I ever have to share a flightdeck with the likes of you.

Dont worry, the feeling is mutual.

Australian Federation of Air Pilots - AFAP - Pilot Jobs (http://www.afap.org.au/Jobs/Latest-Jobs/AFAP-Pilot-Jobs-.asp)

Cheers Buddah

27/09

27th Jul 2011, 23:29

PhoenixNZ

You asked a question a while back along the lines of "Who on here wouldn't accept this cadetship if they were starting out like you are?" Good question and I dare say that without any more info than what had been provided by CTC and Jetstar I would say 100% on here would probably take the cadetship.

Unfortunately the aviation world isn't quite like CTC and Jetstar want you to believe it is. CTC have very very slick marketing about how good they are and what wonderful opportunities their cadets have. Anyone listening to their sweet words is going to find it hard to think otherwise. You come across as someone who had been blinded by their spin. You don't know what you don't know, you don't get to see the big bad world of aviation as you are snuggled up in the CTC cocoon.

Yes, the world is changing, that's always been the case, but it's no reason to lie down and take what ever's coming without trying to get the best deal or at least maintain the status quo.

You keep telling us the airlines need to reduce costs and therefore pilots need to be prepared to work for less and less. Sure they need to take steps to curb cost increases but please tell us why they need to reduce costs. They have made money in that past with the current cost structures, what's different now? Do you know what % of total costs pilots wages are?

Are the airlines paying their executives any less to keep their costs down?

Are airlines paying their IT staff their admin staff etc, any less?

What other industry is hell bent on cutting wages of key staff to the extent is happening in aviation?

Sure you might think that 100K is a good enough salary for later in your career. Once you start looking around and see what salaries your friends are earning, those that have spent/borrowed in excess of 100K to fund their trainng and see what they are earning then you might think twice about what a good deal you've got for yourself. Once you start realising that you spend quiet a bit of time away from home missing things like your children's birthdays and other special events. Once you realise that because of the shift patterns your time at home doesn't have much quality as you need the rest. Then you might think 100K isn't all that flash after all.

Many on here see the likes of this cadet scam as a threat to their future earning ability. Many people have made a huge investment in their future based on what they expected to earn, they now see this being taken away from them. What they are trying to point out is that that anyone taking on a cadetship like this is potentially cutting their own throat and the throats of others.

Just as you have pointed out your reasons for thinking the Jetstar deal is good for you, you cannot blame them for speaking out either.

Many posters on here have experience in the big wide world of aviation and are attempting to put another perspective on things. I'll finish with the quote, "There's none so blind as those that will not see".

Di_Vosh

28th Jul 2011, 01:11

Remoak

And what is the alternative? Flying crappy old geriatric GA aircraft while living in a hole, eating 2min noodles and scrounging around the aero club skip looking for extra food. Hmmm I know which I'd choose!

I know which I'd choose as well. NEITHER!

Seriously. It's all very well to embark on a career change that will "give you the job you have always wanted". But if that means financial ruin, divorce, etc, then you've got to take a step back and be realistic about it.

Sounds like a flying career for J* in NZ means that you'll be earning a low income and paying off a massive debt. Six years later you have to go overseas and fly in a developing nation or the Sandpit to earn a middle income. You'll come back to work in NZ for your retirement job on an even lower income; the only reason is by now you're getting old and will do anything to come back home.

If that is truly the flying career in NZ, then I would do something else.

Dreams are dreams, but reality takes priority.

DIVOSH!

Fruet Mich

28th Jul 2011, 01:35

This is how it works. Staff come along and work for the rate offered means Jetstar can offer cheaper fares, the next low cost carrier cuts salaries and offers lower fares. Because there is such a fine margin and so much competition in low cost, jetstar will then come out with a lower salary, pilots except that, much to the disgust of Peonex NZ and others that accept the current contract and Jetstar lowers the cost hence offers lower fares. The game goes on and no one wins accept the CEO's. I you end up being offered a lot less that what's on offer today in 3 years time, don't be surprised. This is how low cost works. If you want to be a part of this, it's up to you. What ever blows your hair back. DO NOT whinge in 3 years time when you can't afford to feed your family. Because you will be known to all your collegues.

Everyone is entitled to their own decisions but you are the master of your own destiny. Good luck.

Just to let you know, I left a job paying $80,000 at 30 years old, Went cattle mustering in the outback without my partner for 18 months, then flew light twins on night freight before my first airline job flying Saabs. I had a ball, wouldn't change a thing, gained valuable experience and now have a command on a jet at 40. Jetstar survives by dangelling carrots to aspiring young pilots. Do the hard yards, you'll build friends for life and you'll look back on those years in GA with great fondness.

remoak

28th Jul 2011, 02:47

Dixons Cider

Well based on your postings and if it were up to me, I wouldn't hire you. Wouldn't touch you with a barge pole.

Confident in your own abilities, positive attitude? Keep reading those self help books boy.

You liken the cadetship process to an apprenticeship - an apprentice knows to keep his head down, and mouth shut when required, and absorb knowledge from those around him.
You don't sound anything like an apprentice to me.Ha ha... welcome back to the '60s... :rolleyes:

I've handled recruitment for two airlines in my career, and PhoenixNZ is exactly the sort of guy I'd hire. Confident, focused, capable of reasoned argument and joined-up thinking. Perfect for aviation. But more to the point, he is an HR person's dream, and that is is increasingly the only requirement these days. Not saying that last bit is a good thing, BTW.

I certainly wouldn't hire YOU with an attitude like that, you would be one of those arsehole captains if you treat people like that.

27/09

Do you know what % of total costs pilots wages are?Yes... at my former airline, anyway. Low-cost operator with 100+ airframes:

2006 - 4.96%
2007 - 5.15%
2008 - 5.63%
2009 - 6.04%
2010 - 5.79%

Training is typically 0.15% of Total Operating Costs.

The reason for posting those figures is to demonstrate that, in terms of the overall financial picture, cutting crew salaries has minimal effect on the bottom line and is only generally done when times are extremely desperate. Pilot salaries are often the biggest identifiable figure in an airline's budget, because of the sheer number of pilots compared to other staff groups, but still only a small percentage and often the hardest to change. We found, for example, that efficient fuel hedging netted us far greater savings than any attempt to thwart pay increases might have done. That is not to say that airlines don't look at every possible saving, of course.

Highest operating expenses are (generally):

Passenger Embarkation Fees (ie airport charges)
Flight Equipment Rental (ie lease costs)
Fuel
Engineering

Are the airlines paying their executives any less to keep their costs down?Yes - see post 46 above - http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/457773-jetstar-nz-3.html#post6593146

Sure you might think that 100K is a good enough salary for later in your career.Well for a start it won't be 100K, more like 170K for a skipper with all the bits and pieces added in. My mates at Jetstar tell me that overnights are pretty rare for skippers, which makes sense because most low-cost operators have few night stops (way too expensive for them).

Just as you have pointed out your reasons for thinking the Jetstar deal is good for you, you cannot blame them for speaking out either.Nobody is blaming them for speaking out, however it is the MANNER in which they do so that is objectionable... as PhoenixNZ said, "One can't have an opposing opinion without being called a scab, sellout, HR employee, management wannabe etc etc etc." He's presenting a reasoned and sensible argument, with no emotion, and is being abused by so-called "professional" pilots. Not a good look, really.

Di_Vosh

If that is truly the flying career in NZ, then I would do something else.

Dreams are dreams, but reality takes priority.Couldn't agree more. I wouldn't do it.

Fruet Mich

I you end up being offered a lot less that what's on offer today in 3 years time, don't be surprised. This is how low cost works.No, it really isn't. It's how some operators work, but the grandaddy of them all, and the model on which all others are built, doesn't work that way at all (Southwest Airlines). Very well paid, profit share, most employees own part of their company. People hardly ever leave Southwest, and for good reason.

Most lo-cos go to Southwest to see how they work, it's a kind of pilgrimage. When the Ryanair CEO went there a few years ago, he took some of their lessons and applied them... but not ALL of them, which is why Ryanair now has industrial relation issues. The Southwest CEO, during an interview, just shook his head and said that unless Ryanair implemented Southwest's staffing policies, they would have a lot of trouble in the future. Guess what...

I believe that the lo-cos that survive will be the ones that implement a Southwest-style staff policy. Funny how they make so much money while treating their staff so well...

So no, I don't think Jetstar will attempt to ruthlessly cut pilot salaries, it's completely counter-productive.

And "doing the hard yards" is an anachronism in the Noughties.

Bongo Bus Driver

28th Jul 2011, 03:00

PhoenixNZ

Mate do what you think is best for you. I did what is known as the hard yards. Not as hard as some but still hard. If Jetstar was around back then I would have to say it would appeal. A couple of years flying an A320 vs a couple in an Islander certainly looks attractive. Hell the way Air NZ HR is operating at the moment it you have a degree and a bit of jet time you will be recruited there before us loyal link pilots do.

ZK-NSN

28th Jul 2011, 11:05

This kind of thread used to really p!ss me off, reading this one just makes me shake my head and wonder who is going to win the race to the bottom.

phoenix - You have done your research but have you actually talked to any current Jetstar NZ pilots, because I've seen less sh!t come out of milking sheds than flying schools. Have you talked to any current jetstar pilots? They dont sound like a happy bunch of campers, you have to be sure that your sanity will remain intact for that 3-6 years bond without ruining your family life.
Jetstar may offer an easy entry into a jet with a marketable type rating to go overseas with. But you mention you have a family, do you think they will be happy to go live in the middle east or asia? Dont get too excited by the prospect of Air NZ. You see Air NZ are getting new aircraft (as they retire old ones) and will employ soon. But lets face it, glaciers are moving faster than Air NZ is or ever will. But when they do employ they have a huge amount of pilots within the link group that they will employ first and dont forget this wank-fest institute for aviation offering they same vauge promises as jetstar /CTC
Now CTC can't just randomly put that information up without some sort of reasonable expectation that its true. Otherwise its false advertising which would result in serious trouble
Oh true, true. why would a training school and a budget airline (the perfect storm) lie? Just remember the jetstar slogan "special conditions apply" That just highlights to me you have got a rose tinted view of things. Go to the coal face mate and ask the crew.

As has been pointed out earlier, its easy to dump on someones idea without offering advice.... heres mine. GA love older people with some practical experience or a trade behind them. Do your reasearch, find the good job$ and sell your experiences to them. we all have licences but if you have a practical skill (lets face it, flying is'nt a practical skill) that makes you vastly more employable.

I really dont think you fully see where alot of these guys are coming from. Alot of us worked a series of crappy jobs to self-fund a licence. We did the hard yards (fun, but hard) in GA to crawl up the ladder to get to a secure well paying job and fight with union assistance to keep the hard earned conditions. Then the airlines start this budget airline carry-on and they watch the foundations of their jobs get slowly eaten away. Thats enough to upset most people but it really doesnt help when people like you have no shame in admitting they dont give a sh!t about selling themselves and their profession short. If you make it through the industry and into an airline you may find yourself in a similar position to us in a few years. This whole forum is a matter of perspective, the difference is far to great for any agreement I think.
Would I have done it if I could? No.

Good luck in the aviation industry, you sound like a smart chap but you still have alot to learn about aviation.

P.s I hear you get a set of steak-knifes as a signing bonus. :ok:

27/09

28th Jul 2011, 20:33

Remoak
Well for a start it won't be 100K, more like 170K for a skipper with all the bits and pieces added in. My mates at Jetstar tell me that overnights are pretty rare for skippers, which makes sense because most low-cost operators have few night stops (way too expensive for them).

My mention of the 100K was in reply to this statement from PhoenixNZ, which shows he'll be happy on 100K.

I personally dont mind that much whether in the future I'm earning 100k or 150k.

True there may not be overnights now, but as you well know airlines have a habit of changing the way they run their schedules, so there's no guarantees that there will be no overnights, in fact I'd say it could be highly likely in the future, look at the way Pacific Blue and Air NZ operate their Tasman and Pacific operations.

27/09

28th Jul 2011, 20:42

But more to the point, he is an HR person's dream, and that is is increasingly the only requirement these days. Not saying that last bit is a good thing, BTW.

Ain't that the truth. I shudder think where it's going to lead.

Almost gone are the days where pilots were chosen on mostly on the ability to work with a the guy/gal beside them in a confined area for 8 hours and have the necessary skill to manage the aircraft properly, to be replaced with HR compliant drones. I'm not sure the two types of personality are mutually inclusive.

remoak

29th Jul 2011, 00:15

Almost gone are the days where pilots were chosen on mostly on the ability to work with a the guy/gal beside them in a confined area for 8 hours and have the necessary skill to manage the aircraft properly, to be replaced with HR compliant drones. I'm not sure the two types of personality are mutually inclusive.

Haven't you heard the news? We aren't pilots any more... we are Flight Deck Systems Managers... (definitely not a good thing).

Bongo Bus Driver

29th Jul 2011, 04:18

Do any of you people having a go at PhoenixNZ go out drinking with mates at PB and JC? They are just as much to blame for the race to the bottom as the Jetstar lot. By paying for ratings and training the industry lowered itself and the flood gates opened. Now buying a job is standard industry practice. Accept at Air NZ where progression is non-existant. Which is why people are forced to buy ratings, so they can get ahead and provide for their families. I didn't and I am a fool. Those I know who did, work less and earn more. The reality is that to get ahead in this industry you have to bend over and take like a man. That's my definition of hard yards. Jetstar is the new GA. So young fellas and fellaesses grab a pot of lube and go for it.

workinman

29th Jul 2011, 04:44

I originally looked at this thread because I saw an ad in todays paper for Jetstar NZ recruitment and I thought why not? I am an ex-plank driver now in rotary (GA) and am thinking long and hard about career choices. Most of my mates (ex Air Force) are now in the airlines and as I was cruising for 4 hours yesterday at a grand speed of 120KTAS, steadily going deaf, I began to regret getting out of fixed wing. I thought this thread might give an insight into working for Jetstar and residing in NZ but I have to admit, I can't figure out if it's a good idea or not.

My belief is that the LCC model has some way to go yet, particularly in Oz, and particularly with what I am seeing, reading and hearing in the media. Perhaps that is what we will all be stuck with, until the economic rationlists can finally understand that competant, happy employees (like those at SW as I understand it to be) can be considered an asset, or investment, just as a double aisle, high capcity aircraft can be. I think that the Jetstar cadet scheme appears to be aimed at, dare I say it, GenY applicants. Those that have grown up under the good economic times and have a great deal of self belief and opinions (trust me I work with one!). I remember that there was a number of previous cadet schemes with even worse conditions, how's "you pay for the training, we'll do it, then we probably won't have a position for you at the end sound?" I met a couple of blokes like that in the early '90s. Others had parents who re-mortgaged the house to the tune of 120K.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that there is no easy nor cheap road to the front of a jet aircraft, let's hope that some common sense reappears in the industry before wages and conditions droop to record lows and we all ruck each other in the head just to get the seats at the pointy end (assuming that FO's aren't replaced by a dog in the meantime).

Which brings me to my final point, is Jetstar a good employer or not??

The Green Goblin

29th Jul 2011, 05:34

Jetstar is the new GA

Yep, you'll, start off at Jetstar to get some hours to fly for a regional turboprop operator that pays more :{

Bongo Bus Driver

29th Jul 2011, 06:46

No they wont GG. I sit in my turboprop dutifully (stupidly) not perpetuating the rot by paying for my training, clutching on to the false hope that my loyalty to Brother Koru will someday pay off. In the meantime I watch pilots porn themselves out to the LCCs who now make more than I.

And what is the reward for sticking with the brotherhood. Finding out that you do not fit the AirNZ criteria due to lack of a degree, no Air Force time or some other HR BS when all along you could have been progressing in a LCC.

Talking about being a complete idiot.Don't make the same mistakes as I have young ones. Grab your chances when and where you can.

27/09

29th Jul 2011, 10:32

Haven't you heard the news? We aren't pilots any more... we are Flight Deck Systems Managers... (definitely not a good thing).

Remoak, I don't always agree with you but in this case I agree 100%. This HR mumbo jumbo gives me the S**ts

remoak

29th Jul 2011, 12:31

Bongo... mate. That's a bit of a revelation. Are you the only honest RLK pilot...???

27/09

This HR mumbo jumbo gives me the S**ts

Yep... you start out thinking it is a joke... and then you realise, to your horror, that it's real.

When I was doing the hiring for some of my old employers, I always conducted the interview and always sat in on the sim ride. It's the only way to be sure how a guy handles himself in the cockpit. None of the HR BS will tell you that.

maggot738

29th Jul 2011, 15:17

Remoak makes a lot of sense in some of the things he says. Most everyone else here are regurgitating self serving tripe. To you Pheonix, do what you think is right for you and your family. You will find that most of the guys bellyaching on here are already employed by Qantas / Jetstar and are only worried about their own terms and conditions. They couldn't give a rats about you or yours, in fact, they would be the first ones to bowl you over if you happened to find yourself in the way of what they wanted. So go ahead, go for it and don't worry about the rest of these clowns.

And before you all bounce on me, I have been flying for over 30 years and have never paid for a rating in my life but in todays world, thats just how it is. Europe survives on cadet schemes and they work very well for the employer and for the cadet.

Maggot

27/09

29th Jul 2011, 23:37

This whole Jetstar cadet scam reminds me a bit if this story. The last line says it all.

A highly successful executive woman was tragically hit by a bus and died. She arrived in heaven where she was met by God.

"Welcome to heaven," said God. "Before you get settled in though, it seems we have a problem. Strangely enough, we've never once had an executive make it this far and we're not really sure what to do with you."

"No problem God, just let me in." said the woman.

God replied, "What we're going to do is let you spend a day in hell and a day in heaven and then you can choose where you want to spend an eternity."

God put the executive in an elevator and it went down-down-down to hell. The doors opened and she found herself stepping out onto the putting green of a beautiful golf course. In the distance was a country club and standing in front of her were all her friends – fellow executives that she had worked with and they were all dressed in evening gowns and cheering for her. They ran up and kissed her on both cheeks and they talked about old times. They played an excellent round of golf and at night went to the country club where she enjoyed an excellent steak and lobster dinner. She met the devil who was actually a really nice guy (kinda cute) and she had a great time telling jokes and dancing. She was having such a good time that before she knew it, it was time to leave. Everybody shook her hand and waved good-bye as she got on the elevator. The elevator went up-up-up and opened back up at heaven and found God waiting for her.

"Now it's time to spend a day in heaven," God said. So she spent the next 24 hours lounging around on clouds and playing the harp and singing. She had a great time and before she knew it her 24 hours were up and God came and got her.

"So, you've spent a day in hell and you've spent a day in heaven. Now you must choose your eternity," God said.

The woman paused for a second and then replied, "Well, I never thought I'd say this, I mean, heaven has been really great and all, but I think I had a better time in hell."

So God escorted her to the elevator and again she went down-down-down back to hell. When the doors of the elevator opened she found herself standing in a desolate wasteland covered in garbage and filth. She saw her friends were dressed in rags and were picking up the garbage and putting it in sacks. The devil came up to her and put his arm around her.

"I don't understand," stammered the woman, "yesterday I was here and there was a golf course and a country club and we ate lobster and we danced and had a great time. Now all there is a wasteland of garbage and all my friends look miserable."

The devil looked at her and smiled. "Yesterday we were recruiting you; today you're staff."

Massey058

30th Jul 2011, 00:59

You will find that most of the guys bellyaching on here are already employed by Qantas / Jetstar and are only worried about their own terms and conditions.

Maybe that's true. But in my case at least I'm still flying a single-engine turbine (and paid more than a OneStar FO). I was always keen to one day fly a jet but more and more I see terms and conditions eroded by people who don't give two hoots about the bigger picture. More and more I am becoming convinced that it's not worth continuing with a flying career.

That pains me greatly because I bloody well love it. But I am not willing to have my love of the job abused.

OneStar is a filthy disgrace.

aviationboy

30th Jul 2011, 04:17

Phoenix,

I can understand where you are coming from. As a turboprop driver myself on pretty average money, looking at jet opportunities in OZ now I can tell you it stinks. There is nothing, or whatever is on offer pays next to nothing. In fact I am this close to packing up and heading to the sandpit, because that seems to be the last decent wage on offer. If i have to waste 10-20 years of my life then so be it. At this rate I will still be working when I am 65 and poor as ever. No thanks. Don't get me wrong, flying is fun, but I sure as hell wouldn't do it again given the chance. This industry has turned into a pile of horse manure thanks to Jetstar and other LCC's.

You have to ask yourself, why would you sell your soul to jetstar just for the chance to fly a shiny jet? I had an application in there, and withdrew it as soon as I got the email from rishworth. $58,000 AUD to fly an a320?? I have friends with NO responsibility who make more than that. I make more than that now on a prop for crying out loud. Don't forget that every captain you fly with is going to hate you, because you will be the guy who screwed over the entire pilot community to jump the queue. People don't respond well to that.

Do the right thing, go bush for a few years and build some REAL experience. Do you really want to be sitting in the right seat of a 150 seat a320 with 200 hours? Jesus I wouldn't. There are some situations you just won't be able to handle, and the captain will have to bear the load on his or her own. Jump into a jet or turbo prop with 1 or 2000 hours and you will feel MUCH better about yourself, trust me. Oh and GA isn't really the road to poverty as it once was, I was on the award wage of ~$32,000 from the second I started.

Good luck :ok:

Luke SkyToddler

30th Jul 2011, 05:19

Oh and GA isn't really the road to poverty as it once was, I was on the award wage of ~$32,000 from the second I started.

In Australia, maybe, that's true. But you notice that everyone telling the guy to go do GA is from Australia, not NZ :uhoh: (Massey058 you're up in Indonesia aren't you?)

Apart from Crescos and Fletchers, there's only one or two non-airline-operated kerosene burners on the whole ZK register. And again, outside of ag, you could count the number of people who actually make a sustainable long term living out of flying GA aircraft on one hand. The Massey and CTC "A" and "B" cats are doing OK I believe, but they all did years of slave labour before they even got those qualifications so that kind of defeats the argument.

The one or two small GA operators who do look after their people, probably only hire once in a generation when the previous guy retires, and the job generally goes to someone who's been brown nosing the boss for years in advance, not a guy fresh off the street from CTC.

:{ :{ :{ :{ :{

PhoenixNZ

30th Jul 2011, 05:38

It wouldn't bother me moving to Australia to do GA work for a year or two. The main drawback I can at the moment for going straight to Jetstar is not getting the PIC hours I would need to qualify for my ATPL in a year or two time. I'm doing the exams now which is a waste if I can't get it because of a lack of PIC hours.

The main issue I would face is living off $32000 a year with two children. Here in NZ it wouldn't be so much of an issue as we qualify for family support from the govt. I would have my doubt that I'd qualify for anything similar in Australia which would make things far too difficult on my family. While it wouldn't bother me living off baked beans on toast for a year its not something I'm going to do to my wife and kids.

Its just a big balancing game at the moment.

desmotronic

30th Jul 2011, 05:46

Phoenix is exactly the type of pilot i dont want my family to fly with. Sooner or later the bogans will wake up probably after a hull loss.

PhoenixNZ

30th Jul 2011, 05:48

desmotronic

How exactly does my opinions on employment relations impact on my ability to fly a plane safely?

desmotronic

30th Jul 2011, 05:53

What ability are you referring to? You got no licence and no experience and imho no idea.

PhoenixNZ

30th Jul 2011, 05:58

Well I can understand you not wanting to fly with me right now cos fairly I dont have the licence and ratings etc. That goes without saying

Therefore your comment must relate to my view on being a cadet for Jetstar.

And I have plenty of clues, just maybe I came to a different murder suspect than yourself.

Swimbetweentheflags

30th Jul 2011, 06:06

Fair Work Australia (http://www.fwa.gov.au/documents/modern_awards/award/MA000046/default.htm)

Minimum salary per annum

AUS$

Captain

First Officers

Second Pilots

Single engine UTBNI 1360 kg

35,699

30,643

Single engine 1360 kg – 3359 kg

37,216

30,643

Single engine 3360 kg & above

43,223

33,739

Multi engine UTBNI 3360 kg

41,567

32,427

Multi engine 3360 kg UTBNI 5660 kg

43,223

33,739

Multi engine 5660 kg UTBNI 8500 kg

45,587

35,187

Multi engine 8500 kg UTBNI 12000 kg

49,040

37,370

Multi engine 12000 kg UTBNI 15000 kg

52,709

39,793

Multi engine 15000 kg UTBNI 19000 kg

57,438

42,686

Multi engine 19000 kg & above – unless otherwise listed

61,454

44,978

Dash 8 100-15650 kg MTOW

57,438

42,686

Dash 8 200-16466 kg MTOW

57,438

42,686

Dash 8 300-19505 kg MTOW

57,438

42,686

Dash 8 400-28998 kg MTOW

61,361

44,978

This is the minimum stated award in Aus. Even at some of these rates you will end up with most of your tax dollars back anyhow.
Was cracking around up North many years ago and definetley didn't make anywhere near as low as $32,00 per year. Ended up at end of financial year getting all tax back as lots of expenses to claim etc
Anyway like ive said you seem set in your ways so good luck with it all. You seem to think the sun shines out of Jetstars program when all they really have is a commercial interest in you signing up with them and exploiting that.
SJS is still going strong.

PhoenixNZ

30th Jul 2011, 06:11

Swimbetweentheflags

I'm more than happy to work GA if the jobs are available. I certainly think there are benefits to going GA first, mostly in getting PIC hours up.

Anyway like ive said you seem set in your ways so good luck with it all. You seem to think the sun shines out of Jetstars program when all they really have is a commercial interest in you signing up with them and exploiting that.

I dont neccessarily disagree with you on that but that doesn't mean that the cadets get nothing out of it. Cadets simply have to balance what they get out of it and is it worth the lower salary/being exploited. Hundreds of thousands of apprentices around the world seem to think it is, why should aviation be any different?

SJS is still going strong.

Lets try and keep it above the belt aye. None of this is to do with SJS. Its all to do with what option works out best for me personally in the long term.

Swimbetweentheflags

30th Jul 2011, 06:21

Lets try and keep it above the belt aye. None of this is to do with SJS. Its all to do with what option works out best for me personally in the long term.

No worries but its just my observation so take it how you want.

Still whichever way I look there is plenty of Kiwis doing well for themselves over here and accomplishing personal goals.

Will try to keep them above belt now ;)

aviationboy

30th Jul 2011, 06:23

@ Luke

Yep sorry I was talking about OZ GA there, different kettle of fish. Phoenix will be much better off persuing a career in OZ as opposed to NZ. A few years in GA followed by progression onto turbo props will probably result in a more rewarding career than Jetstar, unless he is looking for a quick jump overseas by grabbing a TR and some jet time.

@ Phoenix,

The problem with Jetstar is, while the money may be slightly better than GA the progression will be limited within the company. Other OZ/NZ airlines will be unlikely to hire you so all roads lead overseas and I am not sure how that appeals to you having a wife and 2 kids. Even if you stick around and end up on 130k as a captain, is it worth it? I would never command an a320 for that money, it is simply all risk no reward IMO. I understand you are still in your training phase, so you haven't experienced the airline lifestyle just yet. 130k might sound good to an outside obersever, who doesn't see the level of responsibility present, or the scrutiny you face, the number of sim checks you have to pass each year, line checks, big days at jetstar, plus all the other crap that comes with aviation. No sir, 130k won't cut it. My brother in law makes 120k working at a desk all day. No bad weather, no sims to pass, no in flight emergenices to worry about.

In the end you have to decide, but currently Jet*'s compensation is woefully inadequate and I can't see it getting any better in the near future. Just remember as many have said here, if there is a steady stream of newbie pilots willing to work for 65k then the best days of this industry are well and truly behind us. :(

Luke SkyToddler

30th Jul 2011, 06:39

So it comes back to the same old sh!t ...

... bend over and take it like a choir boy if you wanna stay in New Zealand, or head to Aussie or further overseas to seek your fortune. Nothing's changed in the last 60 years then :hmm:

Did we really need 9 pages of bickering on the internet to come to that conclusion :D

Massey058

30th Jul 2011, 06:39

In Australia, maybe, that's true. But you notice that everyone telling the guy to go do GA is from Australia, not NZ (Massey058 you're up in Indonesia aren't you?)

Yeah this is true, so not exactly a 'lifestyle option' necessarily. It just seems in real terms that T & C's are continually decreasing and it's just sad.

aviationboy

30th Jul 2011, 06:46

Well Luke, I think these days you can bend over in both OZ and NZ... no fortune to be found here (at least I can't see it). Even overseas the jig is almost up :cool:

PhoenixNZ

30th Jul 2011, 07:21

I'm not fooling myself that in all likelyhood if I go with JQ to get any further progression I'll probably end up in the sandpit with EK. However thats not really a prospect that causes me any great concern. I've spoken with others who work for EK and live in Dubai and who rate the lifestyle, even for those with families, very highly.

I've still got a year until I'm in any sort of position to make any meaningful decisions. If I can find a decent GA job where I can start building my PIC hours and then move into multi-crew work on a turbo-prop then I'll be just as happy as if I went straight for JQ.

Flt.Lt Zed

30th Jul 2011, 07:30

Phoenix.
Quote ''The main issue I would face is living off $32000 a year with two children. Here in NZ it wouldn't be so much of an issue as we qualify for family support from the govt. ''
Are we willing to stoop so low that our Airline pilots qualify for Govt handouts to make ends meet. Shame on Jetstar and those that accept..

PhoenixNZ

30th Jul 2011, 07:34

Zed

Thats for a GA job. Wouldn't have to worry so much with JQ and 64k

Swimbetweentheflags

30th Jul 2011, 08:00

Just to be put some perspective on this from another angle.

64,000.00 New Zealand Dollars = 51,212.80 Australian Dollars Gross annual Salary.
Going from latest FX rates approx.

How long do you anticipate its going to take to pay back what is owed living on that ??

Its fairly safe to say these days a Bus driver is getting more than that Salary and they dont have to fork out the 10's of thousands worth of training to even get the licences like Pilots do. :(
This industry stinks.

breakfastburrito

30th Jul 2011, 08:46

Just backing up here to post #128 (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/457773-jetstar-nz-7.html#post6598689)
Nothing in any of the three documents that were posted on page three mentioned anything about Jetstar retaining the right to change your home base location at their discretion without any discussion with the employee. If its in there and I've missed it then please feel free to point it out.

Here is a quote directly from the Aus Group Contract (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?fejyfm3jy00lr5p):

4.2 You are required to operate Company or Client aircraft as directed by the Company.
You must carry out the duties of your role as lawfully directed and at places
reasonably requested by the company

5. Location of employment
5.1 Your Home Base will initially be [insert]

5.2 It is your responsibility to get to and from you Home Base. No special
arrangements will be mad by the Company if you live other than in geographic
proximity to your Home Base location.

8.2.6 attend at the place of business of the Company, or at such other place(s)
as may be required by the Company, during such hours and at such times as you will be
so required by the Company to do;

What is not explicitly forbidden is allowed, from the Company point of view - within the local law.

Australia has stronger employment laws than NZ, and so to see these clauses in an AU contract indicates that they would be able to apply similar clauses in NZ. You must consider everything from the "Company" point of view.

There is absolutely nothing that I see in those clauses that prevents the Company changing your home base to anywhere on their or their clients network at their discretion, and at their will, and at your expense.

They have done this in AU. The Hobart base was closed, and the only positions available were in Darwin. Crew had to move at their own expense, or they had no job. The positions simply ceased to exist in Hobart, no position, no employment, the offer was that simple.

This was the reasoning behind the "Toughen Up Princesse (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/03/31/jetstar-tells-tired-pilots-toughen-up-princesses/)s" email, if Perth crew didn't accept multiple BOC (back of clock) Bali returns out of Perth a week, the base would possibly be seen to be "inefficient" and in danger of being closed.

Tidbinbilla

30th Jul 2011, 08:48

Phoenix, you assume that:

A) You are selected by Jetstar, and:
B) You are selected by Emirates.

It's not that simple.

Good luck with your endeavours.:)

Stationair8

30th Jul 2011, 08:58

Re toughen up princesses e-mail, I wonder how many times that Jetstar "ace" does the back of clock run to Bali?

One a month, once a fortnight, weekly or avoids it like the plague because it makes him tired?

Tee Emm

30th Jul 2011, 09:38

I would never command an a320 for that money,

Then obviously you wouldn't take a command with Jetstar Pacific where if you are lucky you might earn $100K..USD.

aviationboy

30th Jul 2011, 09:44

too right tee, would rather stay an f/o and sleep well at night :cool:

remoak

30th Jul 2011, 12:30

aviationboy

Other OZ/NZ airlines will be unlikely to hire you so all roads lead overseas

OZ/NZ airlines will be unlikely to hire you ANYWAY. If they look at you at all, you stand a much better chance with an A320 rating and experience on type, than pretty much any other experience you could gain at the point Phoenix NZ is.

Even if you stick around and end up on 130k as a captain, is it worth it? I would never command an a320 for that money, it is simply all risk no reward IMO

Yet you are happy to be an F/O on a Dash 8 for... how much? And if and when you get your command, your salary will be...? Certainly not 130K (plus all the bits and pieces). And you consider an A320 to be a riskier proposition than a Dash 8? Seriously?

who doesn't see the level of responsibility present, or the scrutiny you face, the number of sim checks you have to pass each year, line checks

See above. it doesn't matter what you fly at airline level, the number of checks you have to face, the scrutiny etc is the same - Dash 8 or A320.

Tidbinbilla

A) You are selected by Jetstar, and:
B) You are selected by Emirates.

It's not that simple.

Actually it pretty much is at the moment. At the current rate of hiring, with a type rating from a reputable trainer and a few years on line, you would have to try fairly hard to screw it up. And, of course, there are plenty of other operators out there and they are all hiring.

breakfastburrito

30th Jul 2011, 20:05

Actually it pretty much is at the moment. At the current rate of hiring, with a type rating from a reputable trainer and a few years on line,
But will the cadet be able to afford to "buy out" his training - Jetstar have a history of going after pilots through the courts for training costs. Basically the pay is so low, that it will be very hard to save the balance of the training costs. Obviously as time goes on it becomes progressively more feasible.

From post#123 (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/457773-jetstar-nz-7.html#post6598575)
No Buddah, the JQ repayment is only around 10k p/a
Also the student loan repayment is 10% of the amount above $19081.

Corrected figures:

$64000 base pay
$10000 JQ repayment
$12220 taxes
$4491 student loan payment

$37289 in hand per year or $717.96 per week.

So, if you want to pay it out in 3 years the take home pay is $27289 or $524.78 per week, that's effectively 36% less - this figure doesn't include the "student loan payment", I'm not sure what arrangement that is, but my figure is therefore conservative.

The alternative is to get a loan to cover it, but don't look to a bank. Skipping out of town isn't a good idea, as you may end up in bankruptcy proceedings. Given you will need your passport this is another potential wrinkle.

Jetstar are not stupid, they are using well known techniques of debt bondage to gain a captive workforce. There is a significant problem when the employer loans you money for your own training. (google search terms: debt bondage, peons, truck system, indentured servitude). Go look them up for yourself.

Bongo Bus Driver

30th Jul 2011, 22:46

Ok lets look at other options for this guy.

Go instructing or into GA. Then onto a turboprop. Hell that's what I did and to go any further I still have to go buy a job just like Pheonix.

Even in the Links I fly with FOs who stayed the moral path and some of them rely on govt aid to feed the kids. Everything I was told about this industry has turned out to be BS. Loyalty means nothing. Hard work gets you only so far. Your work mates will smile to your face, pat you on the back, tell you what a great guy you are for standing firm then slide a knife between your shoulder blades in an attempt to cut your lunch at interview time.

But what about unity Bongo? I hear you cry. Ha!! I used to be a believer. Read some of my previous posts defending my beloved ALPA. What a tosser I was. Those pricks will take your subs and head off to some bar overseas to plan how they can keep their dinosaur mates from retiring thus forcing younger pilots to pay their way forward. Or maybe they will come up with a MECA concept for the Links. Yippee that will save some dollars so the POs can order another round.

Didn't you have to pay for your rating to get into Freedom? Where are they now. Oh yeah at Air NZ. Hmmm so the ALPA fees I paid whilst slaving away in GA went to help Freedom pilots, who paid for their training, get into AirNZ. I wonder if any of those characters are on this thread telling others to stay the path?

So leave Phenoix alone. He is not to blame. We are all whores of aviation the trick now is picking the right master to bend over for.

breakfastburrito

30th Jul 2011, 23:10

Even in the Links I fly with FOs who stayed the moral path and some of them rely on govt aid to feed the kids

This says it all really. The simple fact is if you want to get into this industry in NZ there are two choices.
(1) GA and poverty.
(2) Jetstar and poverty.

The big picture is do you really want to be involved in this industry? Phoenix says he wants to do the the best by his family (I read this to be income) then he would be best served by training in many other industries (resources industry in Oz are paying multiples of an NZ FO) & fly for pleasure. To enter this industry now is for vanity or the already wealthy. There is almost zero prospect of anything other than a hand-to-mouth existence in NZ, and likely in Aus unless you already have command experience. Unfortunately the best of this industry has already past for new entrants.

My advise would be to avoid it like the plague, to not enter it in the first place. Many of my colleges are studying so they can leave the industry, they see the writing on the wall. If you decide that you want to fly for the "love of it" then understand exactly what you are getting into.

edit: Bongo, you are already in the industry, this is different to being a new entrant looking in. The real question here is to enter the industry or not.

Here's a quote from a thread I started 18 months ago on the Europe situation: What Bean-Counters really think of pilots (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/403407-what-bean-counters-really-think-pilots.html). (original post (http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/383693-astraeus-a320-contracts-6.html#post5245901))
As to our profession, well I had a great time but its finished, really finished. I derive no joy from saying that. A friend of mine told me about a dinner he went to where there was an advisor in economics to the "brightly coloured" airline board, (a social accident - he did not know him before or fix it up, his friends he went with did). He told me that this guy was fascinating. His contempt for pilots knew no bounds and he expounded gleefully on the summer-only contracts he forsaw and the increasing contractorisation of piloting overall, where contractors bid for the work the brand generated and the lowest cost base won. He looked whistfully at Eastern Europe as a great source of cheap pilots and said supply easily exceeded demand for the forseeable future. His view was that flying an airliner was a slightly more sophisticated train driver style job and said, bluntly, that some train drivers now earned more than pilots, which was as it should be in his view, especially for FO's who he viewed as a legal requirement but otherwise woefully overpaid for their contribution. This, he predicted would change rapidly and so, it seems, is the case at the brightly coloured airline, as elsewhere.

He admitted, apparently, that airlines were a pretty cosy club through the various trade bodies they belong to and that they all got together to discuss areas of mutual interest like overhead - particularly staff costs. The oil price makes an airline a price taker but salaries are where they can be a price maker, he said, and that they were all determined to drive the status and salaries of piloting through the floor. It was, he felt, a ridiclous "career" to enter as the specialisation was so narrow and the industry itself so vulnerable to external shocks that it was virtually to condemn oneself to a job where opportunities were increasingly limited and salaries shrinking in real terms every year and with little chance to move outside it at a corporate level unless to manage within it, where the focus would inevitably be on who could deliver the cheapest cost base given the total commoditisation of the industry product. That meant being the best at screwing down the earnings of your own peer group. He felt that this was all fair game and that the market was so easy to rig against pilots come any sign of a downturn in the economy that becoming one was the height of folly, but that, never-the-less, plenty of people kept applying so there was little need to adjust the career to attract the best, they would take what they got. Safety cut little ice because, as he put it, "you lot all want to get home to your families at the end of your overpaid day, so the passengers will be fine too."

Personally, I would have wanted to either walk out or punch him on the nose, but my mate stayed, gripped by the depth of the exposition this economics expert who sat on many other boards of other industries as well went on to over the course of their evening.

PhoenixNZ

31st Jul 2011, 01:14

Its a bit late for me to not get into the industry as I'm already doing my training for it.

As was pointed out its a choice between being a slave for a GA company or being a slave for Jetstar. So if I'm going to be a slave either way I might as well do it for the place thats going to get me more chances of getting a reasonable job once my forced servitude is done with.

My main concern with going the JQ route is being able to get enough PIC hours to get my ATPL within three years (as thats how long the exam passes last for I believe).

T80

31st Jul 2011, 01:29

My main concern with going the JQ route is being able to get enough PIC hours to get my ATPL within three years (as thats how long the exam passes last for I believe).

Might have to do some more research on that Phoenix :ok:

remoak

31st Jul 2011, 03:07

breakfastburrito

I've sat in on similar discussions at management meetings, but the other side of the coin is that not that many of the Eastern Euros make it through selection - which is pretty comprehensive - and all these airlines have a vested interest in not having an accident. So while the bean counters might see it that way, the Flight Ops people don't. And, I have said a few times now, airlines are cyclical in their hiring patterns (approximately a 7 year cycle), meaning that while there might be a surplus at the moment, the minute the Euro economies start picking up, lots of new airlines will start to fill the holes left by all the bankruptcies of the last few years. Demand for pilots will then go up rapidly, as will terms and conditions. It's a familiar path.

I would also have to say that there are not that many skippers in the sorts of airlines you mention that are unhappy, purely on pay grounds. Not in Easy, anyway.

Yes, the job has changed and no, it isn't what it once was. But it is still possible to earn a very good living at it, if you make the right choices. It's pretty hard if you want to do it in NZ, personally I think the only realistic choice is overseas if you want to progress. I spent 20 years overseas and had a fantastic time, flying to interesting places, enjoying rapid promotion whilst NEVER paying for anything. By contrast, NZ is an aviation backwater, and Bongo Bus Driver is absolutely correct in his summary.

Given the above, crap as the Jetstar deal is for F/Os, it is a golden opportunity if you really, really want to fly a jet in NZ. It's only for a few years, and the experience and type rating is pure gold further down the track. As soon as you have a command - which will undoubtedly happen pretty quickly - the bad days are behind you and you can pretty much write your own ticket if you are young.

One thing is for sure, it beats ten years of doing the "hard yards" (ie bending over and receiving pineapple while getting paid virtually nothing, and learning first hand the meaning of "risk" and "finding the holes in the swiss cheese"). NZ GA is the gnarly end of flying, you will be at high risk for a long time if you go down that route.

If you are going to receive the pineapple in any case, do it in a jet, much safer and they bring you coffee and food at regular intervals.

Koa mahi

31st Jul 2011, 04:12

As an expat kiwi flying in the USA I would love to return to N.Z to fly and I had a good look at the Jet* job but just couldnt do it..

Getting hired with AirNZ of course is not an option and even though I have 1000's of hours flying for an airline in some of the worlds busiest airspace (currently based in JFK) I don't have any experience good enough for Air N.Z or any of the Link operations.
I face blizzards in the winter, massive thunderstorms in the summer, 6 sectors a day on min rest into highly congested airspace and its just not good enough experience for N.Z. Gotta have my ADF flying (I use it to listen to the radio airborne, is that good enough ,lol) and my 100hours of flying in N.Z in the last 12 months to even begin to qualify. Being told to "square the base" at 180kts on the river visual into DCA just carries no weight, but its about as stick and rudder as it gets.

So ok, that's all fine, every country has their own 'special' requirements even if it's really just still being run by a 'good old boy' network. I'm sure I will be told in some not-so-uncertain words here that since I went the overseas route that priority should be given to those that stayed behind and swept the hanger and washed the planes to be given first crack at the local jobs. From what I have read on these forums is that experience is a second cousin to the network.

So that Jet* position looked good for me when I first read it. But as much as I would love to go back to N.Z to live and work (without having to spend $1000's on flying a twin to do ADF work and getting my 100 local in) this contract is giving away pretty much any control of your career for the next X number of years. Sadly not good enough. Funny thing is that here in the US Southwest, the famous LCC, is one of the most sought after jobs. Too bad that can't carry over to others in the industry.

Anyway, my ramble is over. For now i will stay with my 19day off, 75 hour line with the ability to use my ZED tickets to travel and enjoy my life.. But dang I'd love to be back to get my steak and cheese pie on a more regular basis!!

Cheers!

Happy work

Fruet Mich

31st Jul 2011, 07:31

It always amuses me when we have accountants trashing other professionals when they have absolutely no idea about piloting a modern day jet. They probably never made the grade to be a pilot so their goal in life is to **** over the piloting profession with their number crunching. As for eastern euros flying their aircraft, pilots are not listed as "shortage" with the NZ government. Jetstar is desperate for pilots because they don't pay enough. Their little scheme hiring cadets will fill a few spots but it won't fill them all. But hey, what would aviation professionals know about their own industry.

All I say to the know it alls that quote we are overpaid bus drivers is "really, when did you last fly a jet?" most of the time their experience comes from Microsoft flight sim or air crash investigation. It must be horrible sitting in an office crunching numbers!

27/09

31st Jul 2011, 10:42

most of the time their experience comes from Microsoft flight sim or air crash investigation.

Yep that probably sums it up. Pretty easy on flight sim with no wx and turbulence etc.

Wonder if Microsoft could come up with a whiz bang game like accountant sim or little man big biz sim. Should have a lot of appeal to the masses. :yuk:

Cant be that hard adding up numbers, heck we even those dang electronic calculator things to do it all for you these days, must get boring now a days, certainly not worth paying big money for acountants anymore.

remoak

31st Jul 2011, 11:13

Plenty of airline management simulations around... you can get to be your very own boss/accountant/bastard:

Airline Mogul - Home - Online Airline Management Game (http://airlinemogul.com/airlinemogul/index.php)

distracted cockroach

31st Jul 2011, 12:46

Didn't you have to pay for your rating to get into Freedom? Where are they now. Oh yeah at Air NZ. Hmmm so the ALPA fees I paid whilst slaving away in GA went to help Freedom pilots, who paid for their training, get into AirNZ. I wonder if any of those characters are on this thread telling others to stay the path?

Yes.
Yes.
No, your fees and everyone elses, went towards helping Air NZ pilots (and future Air NZ pilots) secure their jobs against Freedom becoming a NZ version of J*....the majority of Freedom pilots were happy to stay where they were (much to the disbelief of ALPA and Air NZ pilots)
Personally, I think ALPA membership is worthless in GA but invaluable in Link/Mt Cook and above...but any union is just a reflection of the members. Not sure if I've ever seen a GA guy stand for an ALPA position (happy to be corrected) All contracts and conditions are negotiated by pilot representatives....under the auspices of ALPA with ALPA legal assistance and by and large, they have resulted in reasonable conditions for members.
I've been an ALPA member for over 20 years and although I haven't agreed with everything they have done (both for and against me) I do acknowledge that we are better off for their contribution.
As for your final question, I doubt there are many ex-Freedom pilots who regret buying their type ratings on the B737, but their result is unlikely to be repeated (none bought them expecting to score a gig with Air NZ that's for sure) I'm unsure what advice they would have for Phoenix....you'd need to ask them. Likewise the guys at Pacblue or Jetconnect, who also paid for their ratings and received ALPA assistance negotiating contracts.

remoak

1st Aug 2011, 05:15

Fair comment, but on the other hand...

If you get halfway, or all the way, through their programme and for whatever reason they don't take you, what's your plan B? Do you have one? How will you bridge the gap from fresh CPL to a job if the cadetship doesn't work out?

The better point is, what is the alternative? If you get through far enough to get the type rating, you are instantly employable in aviation, probably not in NZ, but then, if you HADN'T taken the cadetship... where would you be? Probably either stacking shelves or instructing... just as far away, if not further, from that first gig.

If you get let go, for whatever reason, depending on your service time you
may find yourself in no man's land, having to crawl back to the likes of GA.

Highly unlikely if you have the type rating and at least one OCA. If nothing else, you would probably be more employable in GA.

You will take longer for a command due to your low hours and PiC time.

Not as long as you would take if you went the GA route.

You may/will be stepped over by Direct entry FO's/Captains

Sure... but that is better than being in GA and not even being in the hunt for a jet command.

You may never get a command due to ATPL license requirements. This will depend on the Airlines need for Captains. Yes you can credit ICUS time towards the ATPL, assuming the Airline is willing to give you that much ICUS time. If they don't need too, they wont.

Virtually all growing airlines, which Jetstar most definitely is, have an ongoing need for captains. I don't know where you have been flying, but most airlines have F/Os doing alternate sectors, so ICUS shouldn't be a problem.

The Jetstar cadet scheme might have issues, but it is far and away a better bet than the thoroughly uncertain and unreliable GA route.

aviationboy

16th Aug 2011, 03:15

So not much discussion regarding J* NZ here anymore.... has anyone actually applied or been offered anything?

I put an application in myself only to recieve an email requesting more info and docs to sign... which I can't be bothered doing.... note I'd never accept these T&C's but I am curious to see just how desperate they are, and how willing they are to negotiate. A removal of the "pay back in full if leave within 2 years of payment" clause regarding the retention bonus would be a good start.

Might just keep my eye on the sandpit.... :cool:

PhoenixNZ

16th Aug 2011, 04:55

So you want them to pay you a retention bonus without ensuring that they actually retain you?

waren9

16th Aug 2011, 05:09

Retention bonus is a misnomer, they are usually paid at the END of the period that they apply to.

It is actually another sign on carrot with the wrong name, knowing that most will spend it and therefore are far less likely to leave before the end of that term because of the difficulty in finding that money again to leave.

Oakape

16th Aug 2011, 05:55

The thing about a bonus is that it can be taken away at the whim of management, unlike salary to a great extent. It is the same with overtime, as your hours are 100% controlled by the airline.

The advantage to the airline is that if times get tough, they can reduce overheads dramatically without cutting staff. This avoids the cost of redundancies & leaves staff in place for when the industry picks up again.

The disadvantage for the employee is that they are taking some of the financial risk in the event of a downturn in the industry or even bad management. So, in effect, you are betting some of your income on things totally outside your control.

You will need to be able to live on the base salary alone if you sign up with JetStar & plan on sleeping at night.

aviationboy

16th Aug 2011, 05:57

Yes Pheonix, the bonus is the only thing making the salary half reasonable. Altogether the package could be worth NZD$120,000, which isn't too bad. However, if you are required to return the money upon leaving what is the point? You can never spend it :yuk:

And that is if you have a TR.. otherwise the deal is even worse :yuk:

Oakape

16th Aug 2011, 06:08

So you want them to pay you a retention bonus without ensuring that they actually retain you

PhoenixNZ,

The retention bonus in this case is paid at the end of the year it relates to. To demand repayment if you leave within 2 years of payment effectively ensures another 2 years of service from you. So you get a bonus for staying with the airline for a year & then are required to stay another 2 years to keep the payment!

If this is the intention, it is actually a rolling bond.

The retention bonus is paid at the end of the financial year & is adjusted for the first year according to the number of months worked. I believe that Rishworth have stated that the repayment clause is only for the 1st retention bonus, along with the sign-on bonus, but there is nothing in writing to definitively state this, as far as I am aware. There has also been no information on if the repayment clause is for the 1st bonus regardless of how long you have been with the company, or if it relates to the 1st full year's bonus.

mattyj

16th Aug 2011, 06:12

Yeah it went bananas there for a while but I've heard that they have excess applications from already rated pilots based in Australia from another airline in Australia that might be in some difficulty, so the applications from unrated pilots have gone right to the back of the queue.

aviationboy

16th Aug 2011, 06:59

Mattyj, really? There are rated pilots lining up for this crap deal? :eek:

Lookleft

17th Aug 2011, 23:44

What he is referring to is pilots from Tiger, all rated,experienced and looking for a job that at least will give them some form of stability. The wages they will be getting is secondary to certainty.

DeltaT

18th Aug 2011, 10:04

Isn't Jetstar supposed to have about 150 vacancies, so if all Tiger Pilots are applying thats only about 64 pilots? (8 planes x 8 pilots ?).
Jetstar are already turning down type rated pilots with no time on type.:{

Also Jetstar wanted a start date of Sept 12, so don't know how Tiger Pilots leaving can meet that requirement?

UPPERLOBE

18th Aug 2011, 10:18

Errr, should that be 8 x 8 x 2 = 128 pilots? :confused:

DeltaT

2nd Sep 2011, 11:08

kick
all seems to have gone quiet, so just who are they hiring?

Howard Hughes

24th Nov 2011, 01:46

5 days sick leave a year? This is half the usual standard for most jobs!

That's a quarter of what I get!:eek:

standard

24th Nov 2011, 05:35

G'day All,

Just wondering if anyone has a copy of the current JQ NZ contract.

Please PM me if you do,

Kind regards

Mr Leslie Chow

24th Nov 2011, 05:43

Sorry, just used the last of it as toilet paper....

Why the heck would you look at that outfit is absurd.

Don't sell yourself short buddy.

standard

24th Nov 2011, 05:47

Haha after you used the first to light the fire and clean the windows:)

Just interested in what they offer, that is all.

standard

24th Nov 2011, 06:43

Thanks for that. Any ideas for Command?

Cheers

Artificial Horizon

24th Nov 2011, 06:57

$130,000 basic
$20,000 signing on bonus (may be sacrificed if not type rated)
$18,000 per year retention bonus (guaranteed)
$12,000 per year performance bonus (not been paid yet so don't know what the targets are)
$185 per hour for every hour over 65 hours per month

Roster is hit and miss but slowly improving. Currently 9 days guaranteed off per month, but more likely 12 - 14, currently flying 85 ish hours per month.

$1000 for working a day off.
42 days annual leave per year
5 days sick (up to 90 days for a one off sickness)

New contract currently under negotiation between NZALPA (95%) union membership and the company.

Sqwark2000

24th Nov 2011, 07:06

Rishworth saying Jetstar not accepting any more applications til they clear the backlog.... Anyone on the inside know if they're are actually recruiting from current files or is hiring on a go slow til contract negotiations are complete?

Artificial Horizon

24th Nov 2011, 07:16

I would think a bit of both, they have thrown a LOT of management time into resolving the contract issues, at the same time though there a a LOT of pilots currently in the training system and from what I have heard they simply can't fit any more trainees into the system. Don't forget they are currently recruiting for Australia, New Zealand, Japan and the Cadet Scheme. There are still loads of vacancies in NZ and I would think they will take from the hold file first and foremost.

50.40.30.20.10

24th Nov 2011, 09:26

Interested to know if new hire AUS based JQ Cadets are placed onto the Aus EBA or NZ/overseas?

I understand there was the AIPA legal action which succeeded in securing the current (at the time) cadets a place on the AUS EBA, what about new guys?

DutchRoll

24th Nov 2011, 09:48

5 days sick leave a year? This is half the usual standard for most jobs!

So.....you're allowed to have a single minor cold once per 365 days? And no other minor ailments. Or just fly sick......

On ya' Jetstar!

waren9

24th Nov 2011, 12:11

They were interviewing in MEL yesterday. Dont know for which contract however.

Artificial Horizon

24th Nov 2011, 18:28

Yep, Dutchroll. Unfortunately Jetstar NZ has just based its contract on the legal minimums set out in the Employment Relations Act her in NZ (which is crap in most areas). 5 sick days is just the national requirement under the law. It is nowhere enough, as you say ONE cold or flu in the year and you are out of sick leave for the remainder :ugh:

Sykes

24th Nov 2011, 20:45

I understand there was the AIPA legal action which succeeded in securing the current (at the time) cadets a place on the AUS EBA, what about new guys?

Incorrect. It was the AFAP not AIPA.

waren9

24th Nov 2011, 23:25

Jonny

Its a bull**** nothing clause that doesnt bind anyone to anything. JQ HR is full of it. Ignore it.

GetOffMyBack

3rd Dec 2011, 01:44

Does anyone know how many hours the captains average?

Tee Emm

3rd Dec 2011, 11:54

New contract currently under negotiation between NZALPA (95%) union membership and the company.

Is union membership compulsory once you are in the job?

Artificial Horizon

3rd Dec 2011, 12:09

Union membership is NOT required, up to the individual. Captains in CHC are averaging around 85 - 90 hours per month. Not to sure about AKL.

74world

15th Dec 2011, 19:20

What would the NET take home pay be for a J* NZ Captain? not taking into account any bonus of course..... :cool:

2Plus

24th Dec 2011, 16:19

2 5ths of f$&k all!

Oxidant

24th Dec 2011, 20:14

Less than an EBA F/o...............

Beg Tibs

27th Dec 2011, 01:00

The QF Mainline guys going across for a command will be able to tell everyone details soon I'm sure .

Popgun

27th Dec 2011, 03:33

New contract currently under negotiation between NZALPA (95%) union membership and the company.

How is the negotiation progressing? Any sign of resolution?

I heard an (unconfirmed) rumour this week that a senior HR manager had let slip that the Aussie EBA figures in Kiwi dollars was a not impossible outcome...

PG

standard

2nd Jan 2012, 10:41

When it's all said and done i am led to believe that the current conditions will have a skipper doing about the same (in Kiwi dollars) as an OZ skipper. Can anyone shed any light on this?

The extra hourly rate kicks in at 65 hours as opposed to 75 hours in OZ.

Either way it can only get better.

BTW does anyone happen to know the comparitive wage of a Air New Zealand 320 Skipper?. If an agreement were to be arbitrated on in NZ then this is the comparative wage that would be used.

Any update to where these negotiations are at?

systematically

19th Jan 2012, 08:03

What are the rosters like if based out of Auckland or Christchurch? How many overnights and what routes do they fly? I have herd they are better than the PB rosters.

cribble

20th Jan 2012, 09:37

standard
The rate (before the incentive kicks in) is about NZD 203.4k, after Nov2011

Edited to add..."at the 12 year rate" (few, if any, would not be on this rate)

BEAU JOKER

29th Jan 2012, 16:29

Just curious - how many pilots have been interviewed lately for JETSTAR NZ?
I hear people waiting months without any update on progress from Jetstar

flwop

29th Jan 2012, 20:36

What a list!! You have yet to learn that one town is just like another - and one hotel room is just like another. But good luck whilst you are still young and keen!!

Roaring Forties

30th Jan 2012, 19:33

Hey Beau,

If you wait for 'Jetstar' - son of Qantas ie. better than the rest (read best)- you will collect your (delayed) pension first. I hear people who applied back in Jul 2011 have still not been called for an interview- BEFORE any of you start, these are 10,000hr Capts with world wide experience, not just Aussie SHARK PATROL pilots. Has anyone told Jetstar that in Europe and N America 6mth contracts are a standard thing ie. 6mth Europe SUMMER or a 6mth N American WINTER. They advertise approx 3mths before the season start and have pilots released to line within 3mths- and that includes LVP. The Downunder fraternity would not know what LVP is. They only have Cat1 approaches in sunny Oz. I also hear the 'assessment' includes a 'Behavioural Interview' with the 'People and Culture Team'. Can anyone decode what the F*** that is all about ? One can only guess its the latest BULL$hit for HR and some pissy wissy Qs on "what do you do at parties?" or "give me an example when you saved the world from destruction ?"

Not for me Beau. I enjoy the world too much to be immersed in the fish tank politics of Oz aviation.:O

pwrpac

30th Jan 2012, 21:49

Roaring Forties,
Holy **** dude!! you've some baggage man. As a current Jetstar NZ driver may I say you need to get your facts straight before you go on a rant fulla. LVP's are a standard part of our sim programe. MEL and AKL are sweet as for CATIII. While I'm at it,for you and all those who are like minded.
Like any company or job Jetstar NZ isn't perfect.....but I'm happy as there (and I've been with the company from start up here in NZ) If you don't like the way we operate or what ever your gripe is today....Sweet as, don't work for us!! problem solved.:)

Enjoy the sun and get a life......Take it easy.

chickendrummer

1st Feb 2012, 12:47

Aussie Shark Patrol pilots?????

j3pipercub

1st Feb 2012, 13:38

The Shark Patrol refers to the Tasman crossing. I'm very glad you aren't in our fish tank either Forties and that comes from someone who would never work for J*

j3

atlas12

3rd Feb 2012, 05:46

So J* is hiring again eh? :confused:

unionist1974

3rd Feb 2012, 09:31

sik of beinnngggigooooooored

glekichi

3rd Feb 2012, 11:16

Shark patrol = Trans Tasman?

I always thought it referred to running up and down the coast, i.e. the east coast of Australia.

Alloyboobtube

3rd Feb 2012, 22:55

Jetstar are not hiring Capts in NZ as the interest from Australian F/OS is now excessive . Even at the lower pay, thanks to the MOU :
Company 1. Pilots. Nil

Ps and a greedy bunch of JQ drivers who are getting 380 commands with the MOU.

waren9

3rd Feb 2012, 23:55

Company 415. Jetstar Pilots. Nil

There. Fixt.

standardbrief

4th Feb 2012, 00:03

JQ are upgrading all NZ FO's when they meet the requirements above AUZ FO's.

NZALPA and JQ management are very 'close' to an aggreement with a decent contract (see end of FEB).

The DEC window was always going to be a very small one (its new zealand not america)

I think its fair to upgrade company pilots before employing outside, don't you?

Certainly not a perfect airline :ugh: but little corners of it are better than other parts

HF3000

4th Feb 2012, 10:25

How many years of JQ time have the F/O's done to get a JQ NZ command?

(Not a dig, genuinely interested)

jtr

4th Feb 2012, 17:28

"How many years of JQ time have the F/O's done to get a JQ NZ command?"

Shortest, 12 months from initial F/O line check to Capt line check.

BEAU JOKER

4th Feb 2012, 20:45

Just curious -
How many DEC s have been employed in the last 6mths ?
How many more slots are there for DECs or are there sufficient qualified F/Os to be upgraded ?

Thanks.

Artificial Horizon

4th Feb 2012, 21:31

There have been about 6 DEC's employed recently as well as around 4 FO's getting the nod for promotion. The internal candidates will get the position first if they are suitable for upgrade. There are probably about another 4-6 FO's who are close to satisfying the upgrade requirements in the near future. Funnily enough, now that the MOU is starting to bite over in OZ we are once again a popular choice for both Jetstar Australia FO's and for Qantas pilots on LWOP.

The Guru

5th Feb 2012, 08:39

Anyone know how many commands offered under FSO 255/11? :confused:
This was the only recent FSO that has failed to specify the number of positions being offered.

Guessing this will play a big part in the number of DECs going to Jetstar NZ, but because of the excess of qualified F/Os who have no chance of getting a command in Oz, my money is betting that head office has got a landslide of applications.

Sqwark2000

5th Feb 2012, 09:29

Are the Jetstar NZ F/O's getting NZ command opportunities or are they losing out to group seniority by Oz F/O's coming over due to lack of Oz opportunities?

Roaring Forties

9th Feb 2012, 23:48

Hello everyone and Welcome to The SHARK PATROL FISHING CONTEST Prize Giving.

Well - before we get on to PRIZE GIVING, I think it time we let you all in on a little secret. A couple of weeks ago, we were having a BBQ and the banter across the Tasman soon got around to why are we all flying over here and not flying SHARK PATROLS. Well its pretty obvious - we enjoy being given new shiny toys to fly around the world in. We have been to - well to many destinations to list here - but Rio was very nice last week. (You can see our list of night stops on an earlier post) Our youngest Capt here is 32 - it was his birthday BBQ that brought us all together. So that BBQ - we have one every month to catch up on the latest from 'down under' - yes we do fly there daily, and Jetstar was mentioned. So one thing led to another - steak, wine, more steak, pavlova - mmmmmmmmmmmm and strawberries! After discussing the trivia and crap posted on most D&G items, especially all the bleating about EBAs, and dis & dat, a deep and meaningful discussion soon arose and we all asked ourselves - 'Why would we give up our current jobs to enter the bitching backstabbing nepotistic world of 'downunder aviation'. Not one of us could come up with even a semi reasonable reason. So we thought that as fishing is supposed to be the big reason why so many pilots say 'its the reason why he stays in Oz/Godzone', a little fishing contest was in order.

The bait was cast - and holy mackeral - the sinker had not even sunk below the waves when pwrpac had taken bite. Out he went at Vmo like a Mako Shark. All angry and shaking the line like severe turbulence. Never in all our combined days have we experienced fishing like catching pwrpac. How we wish every fishing day was like that.

pwrpac - please step up and accept your prize- the MAKO shark prize for being the first to bite. Not only was pwrpac the first to bite, but he did so full afterburners on reheat - ah - those F111 days.

- Why Mako - well Mako sharks are smaller sharks that prowl the regions - all quiet but have a reputation for being bitter and aggressive individuals with a temper. :ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::E