Would You Treat Your Child Like QF Treats Its Staff s Dedicated Staff

[boaccomet4]

I have been in this industry for 40 plus years working initially as ground staff to pay for my training to finally becoming a Training Captain on multi crew aircraft.

Each time a Qantas aircraft operates its crew and ground staff all represent not only the airline but Australia. Qantas is the only flag carrier Australia has. Qantas represents Australia to the world and the passengers expect it to be operated by "Aussies" not itinerants from some third world country on poor wages.

What I am seeing from ground staff, flight ops crew and flight attendants is distress. Each has worked hard to get into Qantas or Jetstar. It is the very experienced staff that keep the airline running. New contract staff will obviously do their best but it is the long serving crew who can sort out operational and passenger service difficulties so professionally. So in my opinion the airline is the staff not the accountants and upper management.

Each staff member wants two things. A sense of self worth and an appetite to achieve. Whilst working as a flight instructor or training captain I have stepped back and thought "this human being is also someone elses most valued child - if I dont give that person a sense of self worth, let them make mistakes and learn and give them the encouragement to be creative then I have denied them. WHY ISNT QANTAS MANAGEMENT ASKING THE STAFF HOW THE AIRLINE COULD RUN MORE EFFICIENTLY. THE STAFF MAY WELL HAVE THE ANSWERS THAT THE ACCOUNTANTS AND some SELF PROMOTING Ego driven management CANNOT SEE.

Staff are not beings to use and dispense with because of economy they are individuals who are doing the best they can AND THEY WANT JOB SECURITY in return for their professionalism and dedication. When will aviation managers in this country learn this.

CRM courses are run for pilots and flight attendants. Punitive culture is discouraged yet is that not what Qantas management has created. I see an airline running on fear. The distraction of fear can lead to mistakes or even a major incident (as we all know from Check Flights and Sim Checks).

Bruce J Ismay was the manager of the White Star Line. He knowingly allowed the Titanic to be fitted with less lifeboats than it was originally designed to carry. The crew reluctantly set sail knowing this. However the outdated regulations meant that the ship legally complied with the outdated regulations.

Is not what I observe as the apparent punitive culture within Qantas like a lack of lifeboats?

Well in my opinion if Qantas is involved in a major incident or downsized then
you know who may be described as the "Bruce J Ismay" or Australian aviation.

By the way. If QF managment were put through the three day tests that the potential QF pilots have to pass then how many would not qualify?!!

Would you treat your child like Qantas is treating its most dedicated and experienced staff?

[boaccomet4]

Have just edited my post to reflect the fact that I initially started on the ground.
Sorry to mislead you. I did achieve C&T approval.
I did not spend 40 years as ground staff for a major Australian airline. Used my time as ground staff to pay for my training. I went from ticketing, loco, ops the works, then left for GA and finally RPT. So I know a lot of people in both GA and the airlines. It is nice to board a QF/Jetstar or Virgin flight and get a smile and sometimes a hug from a dedicated flight attendant or even an invitation from a Captain to catch up briefly after landing.We are all in this together.

[boaccomet4]

Cant seem to change the age thing in my profile and yeah you are right. Im am 59 years old. Would appreciate some guidance on editing my age on profile.

[TIMA9X]

Good on you sir, some great words, and a warm welcome to DG&P.

[QF94]

WHY ISNT QANTAS MANAGEMENT ASKING THE STAFF HOW THE AIRLINE COULD RUN MORE EFFICIENTLY. THE STAFF MAY WELL HAVE THE ANSWERS THAT THE ACCOUNTANTS AND some SELF PROMOTING Ego driven management CANNOT SEE.

Because they are too busy carrying out employee engagement surveys to see how well they are doing. It is very unfortunate that QF management are so self-absorbed in themselves and their agendas, that either they don't see the damage they are doing as they have employed a plethera of consultants to tell them how to run the company, OR they are hell-bent on downsizing QF and growing Jetstar to meet their cost base commitments.

In my years in the aviation industry, I have never seen this level of disconnect from management toward its staff. As you stated, it's the loyal and dedicated employees that keep the airline together and running, but we are treated with contempt and made to think that we are overpaid for what we do, whilst the management feel they are entitled to more pay for their "efforts".

I have come to the conclusion that we work for the benefit of the management's pay packet and bonuses and not the airline. All the people I work with enjoy their work and do not complain about the job they do, no matter wheter it is cleaning, check-in, catering, cabin crew, flight crew or engineering. The main complaints are management, or lack thereof.

[Sunfish]

BOAC:

WHY ISNT QANTAS MANAGEMENT ASKING THE STAFF HOW THE AIRLINE COULD RUN MORE EFFICIENTLY. THE STAFF MAY WELL HAVE THE ANSWERS THAT THE ACCOUNTANTS AND some SELF PROMOTING Ego driven management CANNOT SEE.

It's very simple........

....because to seek advice from staff would be to admit that management is not omnipotent, and we cannot have that, can we?

Qantas is run by narcissists. They will walk over broken glass before they will admit to any personal or professional imperfection.

This situation will continue until there are Three smoking holes in the ground in my opinion. Nothing less will make the public wake up.

To quote Ian Fleming:

"Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, but the Third time is enemy action..."

Olivias dulcet tones will get Qantas through Two accidents relatively unscathed, but not the Third.

[mohikan]

There would not be a company anywhere else in Australia that hates it's staff as much as Qantas does.

[DEFCON4]

They operate on the Principle of Divine Right To Rule.
They do not manage..... they rule.
As rulers they are indifferent to their subjects....treat them with contempt and keep them in line with fear.
When Dixon left it was hoped the attitude would change.Under Clifford it has been ramped up.
boaccomet4 Welcome to PPrune.Your post was an excellent summation of the current circumstances....thank you for articulating it so well

[FlareArmed]

B4,

A great summation from the heart.

I am not a current or past [or future] QF employee – several of my close friends are.

It's time for the employees to directly approach the major shareholders and talk it through. QF management is clearly incapable of navigating through the current mess, but I think you are.

My gut feeling is the QF work-force can react to the pressures of globalisation – but not under the current temporary regime of so-called managers; this is only another management job to them: they have no long-term fire in the belly for the company. If the the numbers look good on a spread-sheet before bonus time, they are happy – they are MBA wankers. Many here (unkindly and unthoughtfully IMHO) poo poo DS, but he is a real dinky-di entrepreneur that created something amazing from nothing. The current crop of MBA wankers have a different mind-set; it's all about the next 12 months,

You clearly have a hostile management: face up to it, and go the direct route – the major shareholders.

[assasin8]

Ah yes, the irony of it all...

They pay huge sums of money to run engagement surveys, establish "Centre of Excellence", print glossy magazines and dish out excell awards... Yet call us names!

Do these people not do EEO training? :ugh:

[balance]

boacommet,

Very well said. Heartfelt, honest and very, very true.

Unfortunately, I feel that all out war with this Qantas management will be required to get things back on track, if they ever can be.

We need forensic accountants to go through the company's complete records. We need complete transperancy of those records. We need to be rid of Clifford and Joyce, because they are immoral criminals. We need Government intervention to ensure the survival of this national asset, and Australian jobs.

And thats just the beginning!

[thecatinthehat]

Qantas isnt a flag carrier it just happens to be the most recognisable Australian Airline.

Qantas continue to move Long Haul and Short Haul cabin crew to the A380 and paying them a $30,000 top up. YES a $30k top up per crew member to work along side someone earning half that. Close that gap and you might get some engagement

QF management think about them selves ONLY and know that they are only a re-structure away from being Line Managers at V-Australia.

It is one of the most DIS-engaged workforces I have ever worked in. Qantas treats their employees like a sub-class of humans and thats what the employees give out.

No One cares. As long as the government secures our Super-Annuation the employees couldn't care less if the Roo became Roo Steak.

[Alien Role]

BOAC
As Sunfish suggests, this "management" will never seek counsel from the long term staff for it would prove their greatest fear - that the lowly employee would know more about the effective running of Qantas than they.

That is why they employ inneffective and less knowledgeable lower management than they are themselves, so that those lower levels of management are not a threat to them; this perpetuates the "Peter P rinciple" - that is, persons promoted to a level of incompetence.

As a Qantas group employee, it saddens me to watch this iconic Organisation being dragged down by "Peter Principle" Board and management...... is it getting to the stage of employees needing to "march on the HQ" in order to make the major shareholders wake up??

Role on....

[1a sound asleep]

We need forensic accountants to go through the company's complete records. We need complete transperancy of those records. We need to be rid of Clifford and Joyce, because they are immoral criminals.

I have said this before but as an employee you have no rights to a forensic examination.

HOWEVER if every concerned QF buys shares in QAN then each and every shareholder has a right. The AGM is held in October and as a shareholder you will then have a right to vote and attend the AGM. This is the best way to get the message across and get the shareholders on side.

http://hfgapps.hubb.com/asxtools/imageChart.axd?TF=D6&s=QAN


BUY shares in your name and your partners and have 10,000 people jam the AGM. You'll get a huge media following and pull the strings of average Australians who want to see an Australian icon saved

[Anthill]

boac, you have been fortunate to be a part of the halcyon days of the airline industry.

A significant part of the issue is that employees are not regarded as staff by managment. I read some thing a while ago related to HR issues (was an article for HR professionals) was that the staff in an organisation should read the management staff. This means that all other employees are, what, production units? In light of this 'paradigm' (to use managment newspeak) a whole lot of what has transpired in the Australian industrial relations landscape makes a whole lot more sense.

The issue that you have raised regarding the loss of corporate memory is significant. I remember that several Dangerous Goods incidents (and potential accidents) were caught be switched on ramp staff who had the experience to see that "something doesn't look right". I mean no disrespect to todays "pit crew" but the casualsation of the workforce is a safety issue. Consider Valujet in Florida where a college student working part-time saw nothing wrong with loading live O2 generators on to an aircraft. Do you think that the ground staff employed by Aerocare stay around long enough to get a feel for our safety-sensitive industry? How can they when their average employment time is around 4 months!

[Brian Abraham]

Qantas isnt a flag carrier it just happens to be the most recognisable Australian Airline.

Qantas is recognised as a flag carrier.

Flag carrier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_carrier)

[73to91]

I saved the following from a few years back, may have been submitted by Sunfish? I think that it is just as important today,

When poor leadership of "the team" is exhibited, the "team" becomes disorganised and disinterested, failing to maximise their productivity and effort.

That applies universally, i.e. to government departments, the corporate world, schools, etc.

Unfortunately today, many managers right through to CEO’s are not smart enough to understand the ramifications of this.

It takes no managerial talent or skill whatsoever to slash and cut back.

It not only takes a lack of talent but also a complete lack of understanding of business and human psychology to realise the effect of low morale on your employees, regardless of industry.

However, it does take skill to motivate your employees and give them direction and feedback to make full use of their skill.

This requires that you as a manager understand that your work force is your biggest asset and not a liability.

It takes a good manager not only to motivate but to develop new markets and improve your existing products.

In any organization the buck stops with the CEO.

Ergo...a crap business with crap service has a crap CEO.

and

The trouble with the "lean and mean" approach to business is that it has completely reversed the responsibility levels, rewards and time horizons of management and the workforce. i.e.

1. Your CEO, COO, CIO or CFO does something wrong.

(a) Ten years down the track, the company becomes aware it made a wrong decision.

(b) The consequences appear ten years down the track. Those senior people don’t care; they have retired or moved on to other corporations.

2. Someone in an operations or IT programming role does something wrong.

(a) Within days, weeks or months, something fails.

(b) The consequences might be that people lose their house, their ability to find work in the city of choice or heaven forbid get killed. The Ops or IT people have to wear this.

Yet, CEO and his ilk are rewarded by an ANNUAL bonus. And Ops staffs etc have to go cap in hand to get anything at all, every two years or so.


So you have people who should be making LONG TERM decisions rewarded for SHORT TERM performance. (Yes the annual announcement)


And the people who should be making the effective SHORT TERM decisions are rewarded (if that is the correct word) on a LONG TERM basis. (Yes they get say 2% for the next 2 years but beginning next year)

Net result:

The long term thinkers start thinking short term.

The short term thinkers try and think long term, give up and voila!

You have an attitude like many people in the workforce (stuff the company because management are just interested in their annual bonus, etc) replicated throughout the system.

[Oakape]

Perhaps management are not seeking any input, advice or ideas from anyone, because the company is right on track as far as they are concerned.

Who knows what their agenda really is? Probably only a very select few & I bet that's the way they plan to keep it!

[Brian Abraham]

Yet, CEO and his ilk are rewarded by an ANNUAL bonus. And Ops staffs etc have to go cap in hand to get anything at all, every two years or so.
There is a train of thought in some circles that a persons annual performance report should be made by their subordinates. Is that management practice actually used anywhere?
A significant part of the issue is that employees are not regarded as staff by managment. I read some thing a while ago related to HR issues (was an article for HR professionals) was that the staff in an organisation should read the management staff. This means that all other employees are, what, production units?
Unfortunately this corporate view of its work force is wide spread. Had EssoMobils HR department tell me, a staff member, "Our role is to give advice to management, not to talk to the hired help". They should have been commended for their honesty, they weren't telling us anything we didn't already know.

Similarly, we had a manager tell a body of employees, of whom I was part, "We (management) don't give a %@#^& about you people, you obviously have it too good". Why? Because we were a stable work force with very little turn over.

[Alien Role]

Brian Abraham asks, "is that management practice actually used anywhere?"

Brian , read the brilliant book titled "MAVERICK" authored by Ricardo Sempler where he describes how he used that method, among others, to turn around his family business in Brazil.

He consulted shop floor staff on how best to do things, he gave those same people a say in who would be their "devision" managers and allowed them to vote those managers out of those positions if they thought they were ineffective.

The business boomed based on increased productiity, across the board efficiency and most of all, a happy and engaged workforce !!!

[Sunfish]

That post about management and bonuses didn't come from me, but it echoes my thoughts expressed elsewhere in Pprune.

The basic problem is that some businesses are prone to getting their priorities arse about for want of a better word. Airlines, since they attract narcissists into management because of the product they sell are some of the worst.

I am a believer in "the inverted pyramid" management structure, where the CEO is on the bottom point, not the top. Her job, as a former Westpac Director reminded me, is to make sure that every body below (above) can succeed at what they are tasked to do.

The rationale for that is the idea that unless the people at the coal face succeed in delivering a stellar product, then successive layers of management supporting that activity have failed - ultimately including the CEO.

The logic of this is simple when we talk about time horizons and impact.

- A single badly trained dysfunctional and perhaps stressed pilot can destroy the Qantas reputation for safety in no more than Three minutes. Three such pilot related incidents destroy the entire company in my opinion.

- a Single angry Cabin crew manager can produce an instant negative Qantas experience for Two hundred passengers. A single upset cabin crew member can piss off what? Fifty passengers?

- And Check in staff?

- And Engineers that maybe decide to do a little more than Boeing or Airbus require... or not?

These folk can produce an instant and permanent change to the business prospects of the airline that management is powerless to reverse, but what is important is that they can do it every single day they go to work, or not.

..Yet bad Management reacts as if the reverse is true - that they are masters of the universe. They do not understand that it matters not if the aircraft is state of the art in terms of luxury, the marketing campaign wins awards, the food is by Neil Perry and the price of the ticket is less than a Sydney CBD parking fine, if the aircraft is late, the staff surly, service non existent, and that the ride at the selected altitude is so bad that the dirty modern interior is covered with vomit - that of course is a minor matter for the operational staff isn't it?

So what do we do? We award management annual bonuses for reducing their time horizons to Twelve months when they should be thinking Five years out.

We threaten staff that they will have no career in Five years time, so that they are also thinking about their future instead of focusing on giving Qantas customers a stellar experience today.

Does anyone NOT see the problem here? Does anyone NOT understand how this impacts LONG TERM shareholder returns?

At least one theory of management states that its function is to isolate operational staff from risk so that they can concentrate on being productive. It is the function of management to manage risk.

Yet what do we see in Qantas? A deliberate management action of destabilising their staff and loading them with risks they should not have to even consider. That is the message of the Colgan crash transcript.

The only message I can leave for management is that this is not wise. Just ask Rupert Murdoch.

Anyway, I've decided I've said enough about QF. I wish the staff well. I need to get out more and go flying. Cheerio.

[teresa green]

A excellent post from someone who, like me, enjoyed the good times in the airlines, airlines run with pride and respect. Sadly you are preaching to the converted, we KNOW how a good airline is run, which only makes it worse. We can look around and see how TE is run, with a good CEO at the helm, we can see the massive improvement in Virgin under Borgetti, and then we look back at a grand ol airline like QF and weep. Until Joyce and Clifford go, it can only struggle on, its only advantage is a staff through treated like s%it, are determined to keep it going. What can the rest of us do, the retirees, the QF loyalists, the people who just love it for its history, well for a start email your MP, point out the problems, point out the history and the fear for the airline, point out the safety issues if they start employing foreign pilots, encourage it to be brought up in parliament, get it out there. Yes it is a private company, but it is also QF, joined at the hip with this country, one without the other is unthinkable, and most MP's will be sympathetic. Start writing people, to the papers, the govt. and most of all bombard Nick Xenophon, we know he does care, and he could well be the catalyst around which we could campaign. For those who rubbish this, then please come up with your suggestion to keep this airline from failing, doing nothing is out of the question.:ugh:

[welcome_stranger]

There would not be a company anywhere else in Australia that hates it's staff as much as Qantas does.

Has anyone looked at Airservices and Aussie ATC lately?

[willadvise]

Its interesting that you mention Airservices. I often think the the Qantas guys are in a similar situation to us Airservies guys. Both are working essentially in a kind of monosopy. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosopy) They arguably enjoy the best T&Cs in there field so there is no where for them to go except overseas. A big call for most people. QF managment treat them like sh!t because they know most of them will take it because they don't have any other options. They are left begging for morsels every 3 years at CA time because QF management don't want them anymore and couldn't care less if they resigned because there are plenty more where they came from.

[Ka.Boom]

How many CPLs were issued in Australia last year?

[willadvise]

The number of CPLs issued in Aus is of no concern to QF management they don't want to employ anymore Australian CPLs.

[4Greens]

An important matter that the Government should keep in mind is that Qantas is the fourth arm of the military. When a great number of people/troops need moving in a hurry, Qantas is the only organisation that can do it.

[Ka.Boom]

If there arent many CPLs issued in Australia the chances are that there arent many issued worldwide.
If this is a trend then there must come come a time when there is a shortage.Supply and demand would determine the price the market will bear.
My son is interested in becoming a pilot.We have talked about the cost and the dedication required.It definitely can be off putting particulalry when viewed in the current circumstances
I certainly would not want him to work for Qantas with the way in which
management treats its employees.I f you wanted a job in aviation Qantas was always the company of choice...not any more

[Captain Gidday]

An even more important matter the Government should keep in mind is all the tax revenue they will lose [income tax, GST on purchases etc.] each time a pilot is offshored.