Delta planes collide at Logan

[AmericanFlyer]

Delta planes collide on runway at Boston airport | Top AP Stories | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/top/all/7654191.html)

[MikeNYC]

AmericanFlyer, there's audio from this on LiveATC: Boston Airliner Collision | LiveATC.net (http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/boston-runway-incursion/)

I'm not convinced it occurred on a runway, as reported by the media. I'm sure we'll get a full report soon but it looked like the CRJ at least was outside the runway protected area, or that's where it stopped after the incident.

[RobertS975]

Two Delta jets collide on Logan airport taxiway - BostonHerald.com (http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/2011_0714two_jets_collide_on_logan_runway/srvc=home&position=0)

The 767-300 was DL 266 heading out to AMS. Some good pix on the above site.

[Smoketrails]

Hmmmm...I wonder how long this thread would have been had it involved an Air France A380!?

[Hotel Tango]

Or any Air France aircraft for that matter!

[Bahrd]

Hmmmm...I wonder how long this thread would have been had it involved an Air France A380!?
Not to mention the really picturesque Paris Air Show accident...
But c'mon, how many people would pick watching an NCAA game over an NBA one?

[White Knight]

Both aircraft have been removed from service for inspections..................

Difficult one this!!!!!!!!!!! Does the CRJ still look airworthy:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Lonewolf_50]

Boston Logan International Airport spokesman Phil Orlandella said one person is complaining of neck pain after the crash.
There were no other injuries.

Happens in every fender bender, doesn't it? :rolleyes:

[CJ Driver]

Thinking about this, it's quite clever (even quite surprising) that this sort of thing doesn't happen much more often. Several times I have had a moment of trepidation on a busy taxiway when something large was coming the other way on an adjacent taxiway. A double- or even triple-check that I was diligently on my yellow line, and the other folks were on theirs, and sure enough, we glide by with room to spare.

But when it comes to corners, converging or diverging lines, different turning circles, different gear positions of multiple types, the mathematics of what will fit in which space must explode into considerable complexity. I know I am showing my ignorance, but is there a surface movement equivalent of PANS-OPS or TERPS that is followed by those designing airfield layout?

[lelebebbel]

Boston Logan International Airport spokesman Phil Orlandella said one person is complaining of neck pain after the crash.
There were no other injuries.
Happens in every fender bender, doesn't it? :rolleyes:

With that many people on board, I'm surprised that, apparently, only one of them was a lawyer...

[PyroTek]

According to this trusty news report (http://boston.cbslocal.com/video-on-demand?autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=6054450), the bigger aircraft was a 787. Had no idea Delta had any! :eek::ugh::cool:


:ok:Pyro.

[Final 3 Greens]

Difficult one this!!!!!!!!!!! Does the CRJ still look airworthy

The airflow on the take off roll will probably straighten the fin out :E

[Herod]

What did they expect? It says "Delta Connection" on the side. ;)

[ChristiaanJ]

....one person is complaining of neck pain.The others are still phoning their lawyers.

[Escape Path]

According to this trusty news report, the bigger aircraft was a 787

The curious thing is that the lady reporting from the airport actually gets it right :E

[ChristiaanJ]

The curious thing is that the lady reporting from the airport actually gets it right :EShe probably hacked into the pilot's cellphone....

CJ

[Earl of Rochester]

.
These regional jets really are a nuisance - always scooting around well below normal cockpit height and generally making a nuisance of themselves. No wonder they are prone to being bashed! Do away with them I say! ;)

[denhamjosh18]

She probably hacked into the pilot's cellphone....




Wow, it even got to pprune (well not that surprising:p).... I've actually stopped listening to the news because of it:bored:

[SaturnV]

Map, longer story, ABC video with re-enactment graphics..

Jet hits smaller plane on taxiway at Logan International Airport in Boston - The Boston Globe (http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2011/07/15/jet_hits_smaller_plane_on_taxiway_at_logan_international_air port_in_boston/?page=1)

[westhawk]

"I know I am showing my ignorance, but is there a surface movement equivalent of PANS-OPS or TERPS that is followed by those designing airfield layout?" (seems I've forgotten my v bulletin basics and can't properly create a quote box!)



Actually there is... Sort of. Part 139 approval of airports. Design standards and specifications for airports have been around for a long time. The problems associated with airport design and layout seem at least as complex as those applying to instrument procedure design too. And the costs associated with changing airport layout are staggering. LAX has spent Billions and Billions of $ over the last five decades on redesign and upgrades, seemingly always in in the midst one construction project or another. It will never be complete!

But even the most modern and well thought out airport design and layout will never be any guarantee against mishaps. From a pilot's perspective, whatever the layout of an airport you're taxiing on happens to be, you must know that mishaps can still happen. They just will. I figure part of my job is to do what I can to see to it that I'm not involved in any of them. I also count on ATC, other pilots, vehicle operators and other airport denizens to do their part too.

Even a huge new airport like DEN has taxiway and ramp rash incidents, though perhaps less so than MDW, EWR or numerous other airports originally designed in the DC-3 era. Airport operators may try to keep up, but space constraints and funding issues appear to limit their ability to do so effectively. It might be nice if every airport could be optimally designed and built, but it'll never be.

In the end, it comes down to ATC personnel and individual flightcrews being the last line of defense against mishaps. Just like always.

[valvanuz]

Not JFK, but maybe the Bostonian accent!

[Hotel Tango]

So where are all the cries of poor airmanship and judgement by the DELTA B767 Captain (it was his side)? Is that only reserved for foreign crews?

[Sunnyjohn]

I love the difference between the media report and the official statement. The media considered it a 'collision' and a 'crash' whereas the official report stated 'came into contact with'.

Shades of 'rocket' for going up and 'plummet' for coming down!

[RobertS975]

The NTSB is involved, and the CVRs and FDRs from both planes have been pulled according to a local Boston TV news report just aired. I hope that neither crew was talking about extraneous subjects.

[mm43]

NTSB Media Release
The National Transportation Safety Board has opened an investigation into last night's collision of two jetliners on a taxiway at Boston Logan Airport.

On July 14, 2011, about 7:33 P.M. EDT, a Delta Air Lines B767-300ER, N185DN, operating as Delta flight 266, was taxiing on taxiway B for departure on runway 04 at Boston Logan International Airport (BOS), when its left winglet struck the horizontal stabilizer of an Atlantic Southeast Airlines CRJ900, N132EV, operating as ASA flight 4904, which was number three in line on taxiway M waiting for departure on runway 09.

As the B767 approached and passed the intersection with taxiway M, the left winglet of the B767 struck the horizontal tail of the CRJ900. The CRJ900 sustained substantial damage, which included damage to the horizontal tail and vertical tail; the airplane lost fluid in all three hydraulic systems. Parts of the B767 winglet were sheared off and embedded in the tail of the CRJ900. The passengers on the CRJ900 were deplaned on the taxiway, and the B767 taxied back to the terminal.

Flight data recorders from both airplanes are en route to NTSB headquarters. Air Safety Investigator Dan Bower is the Investigator-In-Charge. Parties to the investigation include Delta Air Lines, Atlantic Southeast Airlines, the Federal Aviation Administration, and the Air Line Pilots Association.

[Rapid D]

Another captain's side wingtip mishap. I wonder if that data is out there - which wing hits more often? I know the numbers are out there that more landing incidents occur on captains landings, I wonder if statistics are kept for things like this?

[JW411]

Well, that's hardly surprising. A lot of aircraft only have nose wheel steering fitted on the left side so it is impossible for the first officer to taxi the aircraft.

[SaturnV]

Update on what happened, including that about the time the metal crumpled, a US Air flight had declared an emergency with possible hydraulic problems and was needing to land on the runway the 767 intended to use.

From photos of the RJ's VS, it was not a gentle touch.

Federal investigators give Logan crash highest priority - The Boston Globe (http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2011/07/16/federal_investigators_give_logan_crash_highest_priority/?page=2)

[pixiemixer]

I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often. Even in a smaller airport such as the one that I work at, if the pilot is unfamiliar or we are in LVPs, then there is a good chance they'll take a wrong turn or mishear GMC. I've heard it a fair few times, where someone's gone down the wrong link, or to the wrong holding point.
In fact a few weeks ago I had to assist a 738 from a certain budget airline that had gone down the wrong cul-de-sac and got stuck. I helped him turn around and get back out on the taxiway to head in the right direction. No damage was done as it was quiet but it happens quite a lot.

[ross_M]

The news article quotes:

“From the cockpit, it’s almost impossible to see your own wingtip,’’ said Greg Reinhardt, a veteran commercial airline pilot with 41 years of flying experience, including six years in 767s for United Airlines. The wings start at the middle of the aircraft, well back behind you’’ and are difficult to see because of the curvature of the airplane’s cockpit, he said.

Would it really matter much if you could see your wingtip or not at those distances and with perspective distortions etc. factored in? Isn't it all based mostly on following the center-line and hoping that the designers got their calculations correct?

Former United pilot Bob Rossi, who has flown many wide-body jets, including the 767, said aircraft are not supposed to stop on taxiways without authorization, referring to the report that the smaller plane halted abruptly.

Are taxi clearances issued where there is a chance of a conflict with a different taxiway were a second aircraft on the second taxiway? Or are all taxiways designed to be interference-free of other taxiway aircraft except at intersections?

[A A Gruntpuddock]

As a non-flyer, I commented on another such incident by asking why there were not video cameras on the wingtips which could be viewed on the main digital screens whilst taxying.
I got shot down but without giving any technical reasons why this was not feasible.
Any comments here? (Not trolling, just interested).

[ChristiaanJ]

Once upon a time, we had 'gendarmes' with white sticks and a whistle for 'traffic control' on all major town cross-sections. Now we have traffic lights (not always better, in case anybody wants to make that point).

We have autopilots, we have automatic landing, we have TCAS. Isn't it about time, that airport ground movement control made it out of the stone age as well?

Or do we need another Tenerife to wake up everybody?

[cyflyer]

Delta had better order a load of spare tails for their CRJ's because at the rate that everyne's bashing into them they're gonna run out of CRJ's soon !

[ap08]

Once upon a time, we had 'gendarmes' with white sticks and a whistle for 'traffic control' on all major town cross-sections. Now we have traffic lights (not always better, in case anybody wants to make that point).

We have autopilots, we have automatic landing, we have TCAS. Isn't it about time, that airport ground movement control made it out of the stone age as well?

Or do we need another Tenerife to wake up everybody?Autopilot will not drive anytime soon, because driving is more difficult to automate than flying.
But anyway, there are lots of gadgets to regulate road traffic and avoid accidents:

http://en.clipart-fr.com/data/icons/Softwares/icones_01046.pnghttp://fis.ru/miniformat/10052189.jpghttp://www.avtoblik.ru/UserFiles/Image/1064.jpg

I really don't understand why all this is not used on aircraft and in airports. What is so difficult about installing traffic lights at hot spots, to be activated by ground controller? Traffic lights or even bars, as on the second picture, at the entrance to the runway? Parking sensors or cameras on wingtips? I'm sure a couple of these would be much much cheaper than having to repair the CRJ's tail...

[ross_M]

Autopilot will not drive anytime soon, because driving is more difficult to automate than flying.

Wrong.

Google car that drives itself (http://mashable.com/2011/03/03/google-self-driving-car-video/)

[ap08]

Autopilot will not drive anytime soon, because driving is more difficult to automate than flying.Correct. The following quote is from the above link about Google car. It says literally what I wrote:
“It’s really just a science project … pushing the boundaries of what’s possible. It’s clearly not something that’s going to make us money any time soon.”

[Rapid D]

Well, that's hardly surprising. A lot of aircraft only have nose wheel steering fitted on the left side so it is impossible for the first officer to taxi the aircraft.


Huh? My point was that in my opinion most ground taxi/wingtip incidents involve the left wing of the aircraft that hit something. How is this "hardly surprising"? Captain is taxiing from the left always - at least in U.S. - yet they don't often hit things with the right wing. Why is that? I'm an FO, and I look out and tell the captain when we look good, and now and then I suggest we stop because it doesn't look good. But when it is close on the left side, I can't see. Just have to trust we really have clearance. And lately in JFK and BOS there wasn't

I don't get what you mean but I'm not real smart either ;)

[aterpster]

Former United pilot Bob Rossi, who has flown many wide-body jets, including the 767, said aircraft are not supposed to stop on taxiways without authorization, referring to the report that the smaller plane halted abruptly.

What a bunch of unmitigated Bull S**T.

You just have to love these retarded ex-captains who become television experts. What Captain Rossi's utterances prove that he managed to get through a career with Untidy Airlines without fate catching up with his lack of knowledge.

[Rapid D]

Thanks IGh.

Off the subject I know, but what do you think the data says about landing incidents - CA or FO landings more often?

[hyzhao11]

gees,in aviation terminology,the official statement is more professional.

[Jando]

So where are all the cries of poor airmanship and judgement by the DELTA B767 Captain (it was his side)? Is that only reserved for foreign crews? Nah, that only happens to foreign crews in a foreign airplane.

Speaking of that, I wonder that no-one has yet blamed Airbus for the mishap. PPrune seems to be slacking lately. :8

[aterpster]

Hotel Tango:

So where are all the cries of poor airmanship and judgement by the DELTA B767 Captain (it was his side)? Is that only reserved for foreign crews?

If that is the case, I will make those cries. I see a horrible lack of airmanship these days by flight crews of all countries and stripes.