QF Pilots PIA

[DirectAnywhere]

Results according to AIPA Comms

89% of eligible papers returned.

94% YES vote.

It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees. :D:{

Sad day for Australian aviation when it has to come to this.

[Howard Hughes]

That is a great result, stick together guys (and gals) and I sincerely wish you all the best with your negotiations.:D:ok:

[speeeedy]

AIPA Media Release

Qantas pilots vote to take industrial action in historic ballot

Qantas pilots have, for the first time since 1966, voted to take protected industrial action in pursuit of a Qantas flight/Qantas pilot clause in the new enterprise agreement.

89% of pilots eligible voted in the ballot, with 94% voting to take protected industrial action as a means of applying pressure to management to come to the table and negotiate on how to achieve the clause.

Australian and International Pilots Association President Barry Jackson said pilots will now decide on what form of Protected Industrial Action they will take.
“Qantas pilots dedicate their careers to looking after Qantas passengers, so naturally we will be doing everything possible to minimise disruption to travellers and focus the pressure on management,” Captain Jackson said.

“However, the historic nature of this vote proves just how critical a point we have reached. We believe and the public believes that when you board a Qantas flight you are entitled to a Qantas pilot in the cockpit.

“That’s part of the deal when you fly Qantas. You expect the world-leading safety culture of Australian Qantas pilots. “Yet we now have a CEO who believes you can substitute Australian Qantas pilots with outsourced and offshore alternatives without doing damage to the brand. He’s dead wrong.

“The key point of differentiation Qantas has as a brand is its Australian safety culture, built over 90 years.

“That’s what this dispute is all about. Qantas pilots want to continue operating Qantas flights, but they know management has plans to shift Qantas operations to Asia and start mass outsourcing.

“As a result, AIPA is insisting on a Qantas flight/Qantas pilot clause in the new enterprise agreement. Our members need to know that if a Qantas flight is operating, then there will be a Qantas pilot at the controls.

“It’s important for Qantas pilots, but it’s also important for Qantas passengers. We understand that the company needs to adapt and evolve to stay profitable, but outsourcing the jobs of impeccably-trained and experienced Australian pilots isn’t a smart way to do it.

“Qantas pilots remain fully willing to negotiate on what needs to be done to achieve a Qantas flight/Qantas pilot clause, and we urge management to come to the table and talk about how we can work together to take this great airline forward.”

[bobhoover]

how do you like them apples AJ:E

[Trent 972]

I doubt AJ will be replying with a quote from LUKE 23:34.
Probably something more akin to what the spider said to the fly.

[ACT Crusader]

From the ABC

Qantas pilots vote for industrial action - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/07/11/3266721.htm?section=justin)

How's that messaging going?


Qantas pilots have agreed to take industrial action for the first time in 45 years.
A ballot for protected action was sent to long-haul pilots a couple of weeks ago and today the result has come back with a big yes.
With three-quarters of the pilots' votes counted by the Australian Electoral Commission, 94 per cent have responded in favour of taking action.
After months of negotiations pilots are angry the airline's management have failed to guarantee that Qantas flights will always be crewed by Qantas pilots.
The pilots are promising an industrial campaign including work to rule and potentially strike action.
Barry Jackson, from the pilots' union, says Qantas management is determined to move its international operations offshore.
"Qantas pilots feel very strongly about where the airline is at the moment," he said before the vote was taken.
"Qantas pilots have been very honest and honourable in their intent, certainly [in] their operation of the airline, and for them to be fired up as they are, I think the result will be a fairly strong one."
Qantas says the union is demanding pay increases and free flights on top of already heavily discounted airfares.

[Taildragger67]

"There's no-one I'd rather have at the controls, than a Qantas pilot".

:ok:

[balance]

Overwhelming numbers. Even in EBA votes, they are never that high. In pure statistics, approximately 1780 out of 2000 voted, and of those 1673 said yes.

That is ostounding, and outstanding, and shows the true level of anger amongst the guys!

Well done fellas! Now play the PR game carefully, let Australia know what this management are doing to OUR airline!

[engine out]

Time for AJ and the Board to realize the pilots and other employees will not stand to see their jobs and the company "Spirited from Australia"

[Tankengine]

And despite the fact that QF will keep saying they want to negotiate they have apparently cancelled EA meetings for Wed/Thurs.
Like that will help their cause!:rolleyes:

[33 Disengage]

Congratulations! Great result.

All Qantas LAMEs support your campaign -100%.

[Howard Hughes]

There's no-one I'd rather have at the controls, than a Qantas pilot
As much as I cringe every time I hear it, I think the majority agree!:ok:

[ACT Crusader]

Here's a link to the PIA ballot

http://www.fwa.gov.au/documents/industrialballotsresults/aipa/aipa_20112918.pdf

[DutchRoll]

I was hoping for good, convincing, crystal clear results, but even I didn't think the numbers would be that high!

Massive kick in the guts for Alan Joyce, and a serious bitch-slap for the Chief Pilot who has been going around saying that he didn't think pilots really wanted to take industrial action.

Who is living in cloud-cuckoo land now? :ok:

[Mstr Caution]

Spot on Dutchroll.

The CP stated the pilot group couldn't take an "eachway" bet, so they have returned a clear indication who they favour will look after their best interests.

[djflight]

So I just hope the Midget and his management "team" are ready to make friends with pain and suffering!!!:=:{

Great effort Boys and Girls time to stick together and not let those on "cloud cuckoo land" taking away OUR careers and offshoring OUR airline!

By the way AJ if your love asia so much why don't you do us all a favour and F%$# Off there and take the Board and your "team" with you.... and let someone who cares about Qantas and it employees take control;)

[Tankengine]

Actually the chief pilot was correct that most pilots don't want industrial action.

However we are forced into it by crazy managers!:mad:

It is war as far as I am concerned!:E

Hopefully we can convince the public, shareholders and managers that we deserve to be here doing the job as JT says on the pre-flight brief!:ok:

[V-Jet]

There is ample evidence of atrocious management practices over at least the last 10 years. There is evidence of (and proven) illegal activity at the highest levels of the company. They are nothing but piglets feeding on the teat of hard working and highly (most?) ethical workforce available in Australia - but please show great caution with comments that could well be viewed, misinterpreted and presented to the press by the company that pays the wages of the TV stations by that wonderful lady of the skies - Olivia Worth and her lawyers....

[TBM-Legend]

quick call in brian mccarthy...he'll help you win..:D

[blow.n.gasket]

Brian Who?????:E

[Mstr Caution]

Also who's Luke Enright?

The pilots overwhelming vote to engage in PIA & the company rolls out LE to comment to the media.

Where's AJ & OW? :yuk:

[hotnhigh]

I think Enright previously worked in the premiers dept in victoria. That is the alp's side of politics. Ms Wirth previously with Joe Hockey.
Know the enemy.

[bobhoover]

Luke enright appears to be a a former media contact for the now defunct Brumby government. Yet another winner to join the winning team at qf

[ampclamp]

Excellent result people.
Now, be smart,be strong , be patient.
Do not be drawn to react emotionally by the lies that will be told about you, your conditions wages and PIA demands. There will be a public PR battle.
Qantas management are on the back foot in a number of ways. You have that on your side. As a profession you guys are trusted. use it wisely.

[Ultergra]

Is it time for the union to drop the staff travel
benefits from the negotiations....?

Qantas use this against us all the time in terms of 25% pay rise etc, this will kill all their pathetic media spin that we are asking for something we are not. It will put the focus purely onto the job security claim which is vital.

Then the headlines will read: Qantas Management, epic fail.

[Transition Layer]

I wonder if Dixon is sitting in his pub in Wagga listening to the news and still referring to us as softcocks?

[QFinsider]

guys,

Dixon gave the hospital handpass to that little irish wimp.
On the end of most transactions is Dixon. The little wimp and right wing mate Clifford are behind it. Joyce is small enough to be a puppet and that is all he is. Time will show that the extreme right wing have tied one last time to raid the chicken coop.

[Sonny Hammond]

The question has to be asked.

With the vote on PIA due in today what in hell were QF up to with the FSO regarding the LWOP with EK?

Are they trying to sew a seed in the minds of the disgruntled pilots so they simply give up and leave? Thereby forfeiting the redundancy about to come there way...

They were up to something - no doubt.

What?

[600ft-lb]

The seeds Dixon spent so long sowing have started sprouting everywhere now, just in time for his protege AJ to wonder wtf he's done in accepting this prestigious top job.

[DirectAnywhere]

I'll bite.

I think it was a genuine attempt by flight ops to manage the surplus they've got. At the moment the surplus is around the 100 mark. It's likely to get worse after 24th August.

I don't think the pilot managers want redundancies. I'll give them that much.

The fact the lwop has turned in to the abortion that it has, however, speaks volumes about the competency of those involved. You make sure a deal like this is 100% ironclad before you go public. A bit like the east Timor/ Malaysia refugee deals alluded to elsewhere.

[ejectx3]

The staff travel claims are primarily there to address the disgrace that is smarmy one year middle managers and their families displacing 30 year captains.....:=

[piston broke again]

From all of us at VA, good luck to all our counterparts over at QF. I hope u can stick it to Joyce and protect your jobs and all future Australian pilots jobs.

[JustJoinedToSearch]

The way I found out about this was on the hourly news on the radio.
'Qantas pilots voted to strike, first time in x years etc. Pilots are concerned about job security, outsourcing and offshoring. *Short sound grab of Barry Jackson*.'

No mention of payrise or staff travel or anything like that, just the big points. Good start imo.

[Sonny Hammond]

I'd agree of there wasn't such a solid record of QF showing contempt for its mainline pilots.

All seems very coincidental.:yuk:

I feel bad for the guys trying to sort out their future. Times are tough in that department.

[SpannerTwister]

As above, well done !!

You guys take Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays.

We'll take Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays, and split the Sundays with you ! :E :E :E

Guess we'll have to figure out the bases too...

Monday...Pilots / Sydney
Tuesday..LAMEs / Melbourne
Wednesday..Pilots / Brisbane
Thursday..LAMEs / Adelaide
Friday..Pilots / Canberra
Saturday..LAMEs / Perth
Sundays..Pilots & LAMEs rotation / All other outstations

:E :E :E :E

ST

[fearcampaign]

No one wanted to take Qantas Pilots as the CEO had gone public and told the world Qantas pilots were "kamikazes".:E

[ACT Crusader]

Todays Creedy article in the OZ


QANTAS long-haul pilots are next week set to take their first industrial action in more than four decades after overwhelmingly backing options that include 48-hour rolling stoppages.

Ninety-four per cent of pilots taking part in the ballot voted in favour of taking protected industrial action.

Officials said the vote sent a message to management about the level of pilot support for the pilots association's job security claims.

Australian and International Pilots Association vice-president Richard Woodward would not reveal what action the union was planning, but said it would be obvious to passengers and the union would attempt to minimise disruptions.

"We can't promise that, of course, because other unions are upset with company as well," he said. "But the stuff we initiate, certainly in the initial phases, we'll do our very best to minimise any disruptions to passengers."


Related Coverage
Qantas pilots in offshore strikes Courier Mail, 7 hours ago
Pilot storm looms for Qantas, travellers Courier Mail, 7 hours ago
Qantas pilots demand more security The Daily Telegraph, 7 hours ago
Qantas puts cost of pay claim at $317m The Australian, 26 May 2011
Pilots confident over strike ballot The Australian, 25 May 2011

Asked whether a 48-hour stoppage was a possibility, he said the union had to exercise the option within 30 days. "That could be two pilots taking five minutes' stop-work action or it could be the entire pilot body stopping for 48 hours, or anything in between."

Captain Woodward said the union was willing to defer action and seek an extension from Fair Work Australia if Qantas management was willing to enter meaningful negotiations.

Talks have stalled over pay claims and a job security clause that stipulates Qantas-coded flights be flown by Qantas pilots.

Captain Woodward said the pilots had offered an 11 per cent increase in flying hours and rostering efficiencies that would let an already significant pilot surplus almost double.

He said the pilots wanted to see the surplus absorbed into other parts of the group and criticised a company move to let surplus pilots take leave without pay to work for Emirates.

Qantas said it was disappointed by the threat and was prepared to negotiate reasonable increases in pay and conditions, but the demands from the union were " excessive and unsustainable".

"The pilots' union is demanding pay increases, free flights on top of already heavily discounted airfares and a requirement that pilots on all Qantas airlines, including Jetstar, are paid the same high rates as Qantas pilots," it said. "Paying Qantas rates to pilots for our low-cost carrier Jetstar would drive up ticket prices, make Jetstar unprofitable and set precedents for other staff salaries."

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Suggest not looking at PIA on Fridays or Saturdays, the only people you'll piss off is the little people trying to get home to their families.

Stick with the Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays, knock the wind out of big business.

Employees are unlikely to be all that concerned about being stuck at home unable to get to work or business meetings.

Double tap the shares prices, or should I say, continue doubling tapping the share prices.

Do not get in the trenches with the tit for tat game, we are number three on the most trusted professions list, versus the CEO, which is quite lower on this list, stick with the mantra of company greed, off-shoring, safety, destroying an australian icon and suggestions of huge executive bonuses etc etc.

[ACT Crusader]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but is this the first time Qantas have had to explain the codeshare claim?

[Bigboeingboy]

Guess what kids the AIPA exec is about to do nothing!

[Ultergra]

Seriously, drop the staff travel claim. Focus on the job security claim because without job security there will be NO staff travel.

With job security, the next EBA can focus on staff travel. Its not like this is the last chance we have to fix the staff travel issues!!

We have been given stickers, lanyards, bag tags etc saying "secure our flying" not "improve staff travel".

I am passionate that this is what we need to do to make this a success, with staff travel claims in the negotiations, it will ALWAYS be about money when Qantas talk to the media. Lets see them grapple with the media and public opinion when what we want becomes, less than inflation pay rise and jobs to stay in Australia. There is no "greener grass" that the company can spin off. The travelling public wont want Bing Lee and Bok Choy up front.

[Bigboeingboy]

I say again the AIPA executive will do nothing.

[Shark Patrol]

I say again the AIPA executive will do nothing.

Are you for real???? A 94% YES vote and the Exec take no action???

Management Troll list so far: BIg Boeing Baby, Unionist (Onanist) 1974, Metro (or something else) smoker, TBM-Legend (d*ckhead), Jetstarpilot (or manager?) hcmcmcmcmcmcmcm clown (self-naming).

Feel free to add to the list boys and girls!

89% participation rate for 94% YES vote - I've seen nothing like this EVER from Qantas pilots. This should send a BIG message to the twerp and his henchmen that its GAME ON!!

[DutchRoll]

BBB, a couple of points to add a bit of sensibility to your posts (which wouldn't be hard):

The AIPA exec are constrained by the list of industrial action initiatives on the ballot. They're not about to barge headlong into multiple actions like a bull in a china shop. A little care, planning, and targetting of the action is required.

I'm certain too, that if they can use this overwhelming vote to get Qantas back to the negotiating table and seriously talking job security (which Qantas had no interest at all in discussing previously) and avoid industrial action all together, they will. That would be the sort of result which would be in the best interests of all parties, and the travelling public.

It's a pity it had to come to this. But Joyce and the Board have been sent a message which is so clear that even someone with the mental capacity of a spotted-newt could understand it.

[airtags]

The message seems tighter - keep the focus on the offshore push but....
....link it to what this means to the Australian traveller. (ie WHY Australian passengers want to keep a Qantas pilot in cntrol of Qantas aircraft)

Here are the lines that I would be pushing in the AIPA interviews:

"While the flight crews from these overseas labour hire companies hold a pilots licence - there's no guarantee that their training and experience would allow them to perform as the Qantas pilots did during the QF32 A380 incident".

"Remember Alan Joyce told the Parliament that he saw no issue with Jetstar's decision to put low hour, inexperienced pilots in control of Jetstar aircraft"

"Alan Joyce and his management are only interested in slashing costs & sending Australian jobs offshore via third party companies"

"This is all about slashing jobs and undermining Australian standards. Remember these foreign companies that Alan Joyce wants to carry the Qantas brand could be subject to a lower level of scrutiny from Australian Safety Regulators - that's not good for Australian passengers"

"We are professional people. we would not be taking this action if we did not believe that there are real risks for Qantas passengers"

"Alan Joyce is effectively trying to sub-contract the Qantas brand to overseas companies - just like with the A380 engine issue - when things go wrong it was Alan Joyce and his management that claimed they did not know what was being done to Qantas planes by overseas maintenance contractors including Rolls Royce"

"Alan Joyce claims that the Qantas International brand is not making money but poor management decisions by him and his management have cost the airline millions of dollars [insert list] - all this waste has happened on his watch and while he's crying poor he's very quick to put his hand out for an $11m 'performance bonus' on top of his multi-million dollar salary"


Play professional and appear rational in order to push Joyce into a position to defend nothing but greed.
AT :E

[mmciau]

This reply no 29 on this thread


Mike

QF Pilots Vote To Strike — Civil Aviation Forum | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5197361/1/#30)

The real point is that the pilots CAN NOT win. End of story. If they push it to far they are committing suicide, job wise.

If FAA certified pilots are not already doing type training for QF I would be very surprised and would bet if they are not it is in the works. As I said in reply 1 QF knows exactly how to work the system to achieve their desired outcome and technical management and Alan Joyce certainly haven't forgotten the lesson of 1989 and 2002(3).

Gemuser

[V-Jet]

Hear hear Dutch Roll and Airtags.

I may be a little hot headed about this, but I would love to see BJ mention AJ's pay increases when he is questioned ad infinitum about AIPA's mad 2.5% grab for cash.

There also needs to be a very good argument for the staff travel push. Everyone who has dealt with it personally understands what it is (the seats are EMPTY after all, or we just don't get on) but that is being distorted ridiculously by the lying toads who should know better.

[ANCDU]

Apparently a good interview for the Qantas pilots on the George Negus show last night, with George highlighting in an interview that this is not about pay but about the careers of junior Qantas pilots. Didn't see it but it sounds like the message is finally starting to get across. Seat belt signs on..... this is going to be a rough ride!

[mcgrath50]

6.30 with George Negus | Channel Ten - Watch Full Episodes and Video (http://ten.com.au/630pm-with-george-negus.htm?movideo_p=44087&movideo_m=117487)

[framer]

If you guys don't drop every claim except the job security....you're stuffed.
Imagine AJ trying to explain how they can't reach an agreement with the pilots after they have just dropped all but one claim. It would certainly show the public you are serious about one thing and not just after a bit more cash in your pockets etc. Go for a zero wage increase, you might g backwards a bit for three years but not much,it's not like you're going to starve....if you are, sell your flat screen tv and buy a supply of potatoes to get you through winter.
In my opinion, as an observer, that is the only thing that might.....might swing this towards getting the board to act after AJ loses public favour, and getting the board to do something is the only way the plans in place might be changed a bit.

[Shark Patrol]

MMciau,

After reading about the first ten responses on the website link you provided, I think you HAVE found the airline management chat site. I think their readership must, on average, be somewhere to the right of Atilla the Hun!!

[assasin8]

It's immediately obvious from the majority of the negative replies on that website, that the posters haven't got a clue what the "job security" clause is all about! Probably doesn't help that the majority of the posters live overseas, as well! :ugh:

[framer]

I just went to that link and had a read as well SharkP.
One person said they have always believed that salaries should be "rational" the response by another poster was;

Quoting ILUV767 (http://www.airliners.net/profile/ILUV767) (Reply 24 (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5197361/1/#24)):
I've always felt that pay should be rational.
And rational means let the market forces dictate the pay.



It made me think that the problem lies in the fact that the market place has changed, the QF longhaul salaries were rational in a market where the labour supply was limited to Australia. Now , (rightly or wrongly) it is not. The labour market has gone global. So in that respect, the QF pilots are not fighting their management, they are fighting legislation that has changed the limits of the labour market place.
Does that sound like a fair summary to anyone?

[BeerMan]

How many times does it need to be said... this is not about pay and salaries... it is about ensuring Australian QANTAS pilots are part of the future at QANTAS.

[Jack Ranga]

Interesting the comment that 95% in favour of PIA is unheard off:

Rewind 2 years-

Australian ATC to strike

94.35%

After the results of this vote were published there was a very quick resolution. We all saw who the softcocks were in this 'negotiation.'

Donot drop any of your claims, including the staff travel, why would you?

Qantas management are playing a very dangerous game here. Virgin are introducing Business Class. If Qantas are out of the air for even ONE period of 48 hours it will be enough for some travel departments to move their accounts.

Go on AJ, time to put your nads on the line ole son. Time to find out who the softcocks are I say.

Go hard.

[BeerMan]

It's alright Ranga, because Jetstar now have Business Class (head banging against wall icon).

It's even advertised in the SMH today!!!

[600ft-lb]

Airline warns pilots' demands threaten Jetstar | Geelong, VIC, Australia (http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au/article/2011/07/12/267591_news.html)
CHEAP Jetstar airfares out of Avalon Airport would be jeopardised if Qantas pilots pressed ahead with threats of industrial action, the discount carrier's parent company warned.
Qantas long-haul pilots yesterday voted to take protected industrial action against the airline for the first time in 45 years, as the company rejected union claims it was sending pilots' jobs offshore.
A Qantas spokesman said pilots' demands for more pay to operate Jetstar flights would make the discount carrier unviable, and push up fares.
Are they getting that desperate they need to spread lies about the claim ?

Strawman argument anyone ?

They are really very clever, much respect for their business expertise. Of course they won't be sending Qantas jobs offshore, they'll just be tripling the size of Jetstar whilst shrinking Qantas, leaving Qantas with the a380 and clapped out A330's only.

When the 787s arrive Qantas can finally get some modern, 'new' A330s, EBA, EBB etc, flogged out from years of Jetstar use to replace the 20 year old 767s, whilst Jetstar and Jetstar Indonesia, Jetstar Japan, Jetstar Vietnam, Jetstar Singapore, Jetstar Malaysia, Jetstar AirAsia, Jetstar Holdings Shelf Company Cayman Islands PTY LTD etc get 787s, but only if the pilot groups involved offer to pay for their ratings, pay for time in the right hand seat to get their 200 hours and become indentured slaves to the company.

Genius!

And of course Jetstar Everyone will be a >50% locally owned but totally funded from the unprofitable mainline back in the backwater of Australia.

Bonuses all round!

[Popgun]

How many times does it need to be said... this is not about pay and salaries... it is about ensuring Australian QANTAS pilots are part of the future at QANTAS.


If that is true then unmuddy the issue by dropping the staff travel claim and any pay increase. Make it JUST about offshoring and job security.


If you guys don't drop every claim except the job security....you're stuffed.

The PR war is unlikely to be won in the minds of the Aussie public if they mistakenly think this is about extra money and cushy perks for an employee group that already have pay and conditions far superior to nearly all Australians.

Win this battle...and return to fight the other injustices (including staff travel inequities) of the war at a later time. If you don't win this impending battle there may not be a later war to fight.

PG

[airtags]

quote:
"as the company rejected union claims it was sending pilots' jobs offshore."

from this statement there is now a trigger to challenge the company.

Question 1:
Given the statement above do you gaurantee that Australian pilot jobs will not be replaced by pilots employed through labour companies or other entities outside of Australia to operate Qantas aircraft?

and

Question 2:
Will you allocate any current routes operated with Australian aircraft and crew to Jetstar or any Jetstar franchise?

[Bigboeingboy]

LOL. Do you guys really think the AIPA exec(A380 744 Captains) are about to risk their greedy little positions?
Please ask yourselves why we are in this position and who was on the AIPA COM when they sat back and allowed Jetstar to be created.
They know who they are and guess what they are still there! The only one that is not is RH but he aint going to retire cause we need his great experience.
Yep AIPA has wound you guys up but the exec will make sure they are fine.

[OhForSure]

600: I enjoyed that very much. :ok:

I reckon eventually management will cave in and protect Qantas flying, however I fear by Aug 24 there will be voluntary redundancies or forced redundancies a-plenty. :(

[PPRuNeUser0198]

Today I read that AIPA are demanding the following:

- free travel for pilots in addition to already discounted concessional travel; and
- adjustment of Jetstar pilot salaries in-line with Qantas award rates i.e. same rate of pay.

Could you please advise if the two aforementioned "demands" are factually correct.

[Taildragger67]

Airtags,

Can I please add one more to your (brilliant) list:

"We agree with what Qantas ambassador John Travolta says - "there's no-one I'd rather have at the controls, than a Qantas pilot".

We have been given stickers, lanyards, bag tags etc saying "secure our flying"

That means zip to the punters at the carousel. How about "Qantas pilots for Qantas flights" or similar? Or "Safety has a price". Big, day-glo orange muthas all over the side of your Delsey and let them go around 3 or 4 times.


"as the company rejected union claims it was sending pilots' jobs offshore."

So how does the company define Jetconnect?

[empire4]

QANTAS SO's are paid double what they should be. Plain and simple, like it or not.

I agree that a career path for pilots needs to be brought back, however you need to realise that you will have to sacrifice somethings.

[JohnMcGhie]

I'm trying to work this out: Everybody knows that those senior Qantas captains are paid about a quarter million a year, is that right?

For about a thousand hours flying a year?

Which means that in a full bus to LAX, each passenger is paying about $8.33 to have a captain up the sharp end who knows what he or she is doing?

And if we were to DOUBLE the Captain's salary, to half a million a year (could afford THREE ex-wives and a new Holden with that...) then each passenger would be paying $16.60 for a captain to get them to LAX. The air fare would rise eight bucks.

Now let's see: a jet pilot trained by one of the Asian Air Forces to the north of us would probably be very happy to do the job for about $12,000 a year. To him, that would be a pay-rise of nearly double his former salary.

The air fare to LAX could then be reduced by about $7.90 per passenger. Of course, the landing might not be quite so smooth. There may be quite a bit more smoke involved.

Is my back-of-the-envelope figuring out by an order of magnitude? Maths was never my strong suit... But is that what we're arguing about here? Eight bucks to LAX?

Cheers

[maggot]

QANTAS SO's are paid double what they should be. Plain and simple, like it or not.


yeah, it's pretty simple: they save on having a heavy crew of 2x capts & F/Os; therefore it's a huge saving already. :ugh:


@JohnMcGhie: I dunno about your numbers/process but yeah, we're not talking about much at all! 2/3rds of bugger all!! :hmm:

[noip]

TV

Could you please advise if the two aforementioned "demands" are factually correct.

They are not.

N

[chockchucker]

Apologies Mods if this is already posted somewhere else but, once again, Ben Sandilands appears to have his finger on the pulse................



Qantas pilot dispute turns to issues other than pay
July 12, 2011 – 4:24 pm, by Ben Sandilands

Since its pilots voted overwhelmingly to support any union call for lawful or protected industrial action Qantas management has started arguing with its pilots about its plans to restructure the airline group rather than their pay claims for a tiny 2.5 per cent three year pay deal.

This may prove to be a game losing own goal.

To boil down the management response it is that union demands that all Qantas pilots be trained to current Qantas standards and have their jobs paid and located in Australia are “excessive and unsustainable” and a “veto on change.”

Hullo Treasury, the ATO, and members of parliaments? Can you drag your heads out of the trough in the Qantas Chairmans Lounges long enough to digest something more important than your perks?

This is dangerous ground for Qantas, given that this implies that current piloting culture of excellence is unaffordable, and that jobs sent abroad will somehow translate into bigger profits at a time when mismanagement continues to drive a shrinking Qantas market share further toward oblivion.

The notion that a smaller Qantas, but one increasingly augmented by Qantas controlled and financed entities flown and serviced by labor paid under Asian terms and conditions, is going to be a better Qantas, has become the real issue in this dispute.

The Australian and International Pilots Association has wedged management by taking on the role of defending public perceptions of Qantas excellence rather than promoting their claims for improved pay and conditions.

Qantas Group CEO Alan Joyce has already committed himself to a wide ranging restructuring announcement on August 24, the day it reports its full year to June 30 results to shareholders who haven’t had a dividend for two years.

Joyce’s frequent claims that Qantas international is unsustainable and his equally frequent brushing aside of requests for disclosure as to how much that situation reflects the paying of costs associated with the Jetstar franchise can be read alongside claims by Jetstar group CEO, Bruce Buchanan, that lower paid lower experience pilots are better than those whose pay and conditions reflect a much more costly company investment in safety standards and professional experience.

Joyce was the CEO of Jetstar when it nearly destroyed an airliner in 2007 because it improperly changed and consequently degraded the standard operating procedures for a missed approach in its A320 fleet, one of which then nearly flew into the ground in fog trying to climb away from Melbourne’s Tullamarine Airport with the engines set to reduced rather than go-around thrust settings.

In his own public guidance Joyce has talked up the merits of offshore alliances, ventures and service agreements, all of which remove from the direct control of Qantas those very things the public expect it to uphold, and which obviously threaten union jobs too.

After the very serious QF32 incident on November 4 last year, in which a defective Rolls-Royce engine disintegrated and severely damaged an Airbus A380, Joyce attacked the engine maker for its secrecy in not telling Qantas things it knew about that engine, and about its decision to ‘fix’ the deficiencies in its own sweet time.

Yet Joyce continues to support such service agreements, where Qantas saves money, but is at the mercy of service failures by third parties that are replacing its own maintenance and engineering facilities and their decades of experience.

Similarly the airline is resisting Qantas pilot concerns that the carrier’s professional piloting standards are being traded in for external providers of pilots, some of whom will replace Australian pilots by being based somewhere in Asia, and flying to and from this country and then onwards to Europe and other destinations.

In what has been interpreted in pilot ranks as an effort to reduce redundancy costs in the impending August 24 restructure, Qantas last week told its pilots that they could apply for leave without absence for three years to fly as first officers for Emirates, its most aggressive and successful long haul competitor.

For travellers uninterested in labor-management disputes, this is also a row about what Qantas will be in the future. Will it continue to be ‘the Spirit of Australia’, and will it continue to chest beat over being the national flag carrier when more of its experienced pilots are flying for foreign carriers, having been replaced by lower paid, less experienced foreign pilots?

It is a very perverse outlook. Experienced Qantas pilots forced abroad, to strengthen the likes of Emirates and Singapore Airlines, while the pilots they reject get hired by Qantas Asian franchises because they are cheap, inexperienced and supposedly good for the bottom line.

This report appeared in the Crikey subscriber Daily Mail earlier today

[seat1A]

QANTAS SO's are paid double what they should be. Plain and simple, like it or not.


Don't like Second Officers do you empire4? This isn't the first time you have mentioned S/O pay. I am curious why you are so bitter and twisted, do tell :confused:

[Going Boeing]

Empire4, it looks like your ego is getting in the way of facts. You appear to look at a person's rank to estimate his/her worth. A QF S/O is as much a pilot (& may even have better skills) as one who joins Jetstar, Virgin, Tiger etc as a F/O. The fact that they don't yet get the opportunity to carry out take-offs and landings on the large widebody aircraft that they are rated on doesn't make them less valuable to the operation than an A320/B737 F/O.

The reason QF has been prepared (in the past) to pay the S/O's well is to attract the best people. If that level of remuneration was not available, these pilots would become domestic F/O's instead of joining QF.

[low_earth_orbit]

Aren't QF S/Os paid on par say with Cathay S/O's?

Doesn't Qantas get around with 2 S/Os in a four man crew versus 2 Capts and 2 F/Os or versus perhaps 1 Capt, 2 F/Os and 1 S/O?

Crew costs overall would be less then for Qantas per flight - makes sense to pay for experienced S/Os in that case

Good result on the PIA ballot boys and girls - sends a loud message....now whether the dimwit management care to listen is another question...:D

[NewPiper]

In the George Negus interview, George asked Richard if he would give a guarantee that passengers/customers would not turn up to airports and find their flights cancelled. Richard replied by saying there are no guarantees in life. Then almost in the same breath, he said, AIPA are asking Qantas for a guarantee that, if its a Qantas ticket and a Qantas aircraft, it should be flown by a Qantas Pilot.

No guarantees in life......Hopefully this statement wont come back to haunt him later on.

[porch monkey]

Spoken like a true sky god, going Boeing. I don't work for QF, but support your stand 100%. The implications for the rest of us if your management are successful are obvious. But pray tell what makes a QF s/o better than me, a lowly domestic f/o?:=

[Trent 972]

The way I read GB's post was that if they hadn't become QF S/O's then they would have been as good as you Porch, and capable of being a F/O as well. I didn't read any 'PutDown' in the post. At least you got a 'SkyGod' shot in there though. Feeling better now?

[empire4]

I'm not bitter and twisted, nor is my ego getting in the way of my opinion and I'm not disagreeing with the general direction that AIPA is wanting to head towards.
I belieive strongly that QF pilots are amongst the best in the world, and should be renumerated in such a way. However, by ensuring a constant and attractive career path for a young pilot you will also ensure they will go on to earn good money, at a safe and stable airline, in Australia. You don't have to pay $160,000 PA for a A380 SO to ensure you have an excellent pilot, especially if at the end of the day there is no airline for him when he becomes an FO. What you need to ensure is that you can maintain a business, which is competitive for both the employer and employees.

how are you going to compete with Asian airlines? Yes, I would take one of my Aussie mates flying anyday. Unfortunetly I'm not the public and they don't care. Whether this be right or wrong is not the question. Its purely dollar driven.The fact is that arguments of Asian airlines being substandard can only be backed up by inside industry knowledge and not crash statistics or incidents.

There is always an assumed risk, whether it is big or small changes with the individual. This risk will not change proportionally with the ticket prices or pay between airline carriers. This is, unfortunetly where we have found ourselves in the aviation business.

[porch monkey]

Nope Trent, I don't. We each obviously read it differently. Glass half full or empty I guess. Seems pretty obvious to me that the post was worded such that being a domestic f/o was only a second preference to being an s/o. Each to his own I guess.

[Angle of Attack]

As usual everything get's muddled, 160k for an A380 S/O yeah it happens but only to the few at the top, who wants to move to an A330 S/O from an F/O position? I guess not many because you would generally take a 20-40% paycut to be one coming from a domestic F/O, and thats not only a QF F/O even from jetstar you'd struggle to maintain your salary!

And empire4 I cant speak for all Asian airlines but in SIA I can guarantee you that the flight deck crew of a 4 man long haul flight cost more than similar QF crew. 2 Captains 2 F/O's, and an S/O is only a training position usually for around 6 months unlike QF or Cathay.

Anyway this is not about pay for different positions this is about a real threat to the whole Australian economy, you think this is a global market? Well the real problem is the flow on effects, quote,

I was just reading how Gina Rinehart is lobbying to have a special economic zone for a new mine project in Queensland that will allow her to fly in Foreign labour as they see fit, to the exclusion of Australian employees.

If this rot is allowed to set well the mining industry will be next FIFO miners, after all most of the WA mines are same distance to Indonesia compared to Perth!

I think the principle is the main game and no point arguing about side issues at the moment, wish all the best for the QF guys and girls rising to the challenge! :ok:

[Icarus2001]

The fact is that arguments of Asian airlines being substandard can only be backed up by inside industry knowledge and not crash statistics or incidents.

Okay how many jets have been put into the side of a hill in Australia?

How about Indonesia? India? Thailand? Malaysia? Cambodia? Vietnam? China?

You need to read a little more widely.

[Network]

An aviation enthusiast SLF, trying to keep an open mind on the current situation....

Just curious on a couple of things....if I may.

1) Are QF domestic and Jetstar pilots represented by AIPA and also able to partake in the PIA?

If not, how likely is it that QF management will be able to use these other pilots in the event of PIA by QF international pilots.

Understand the issue of different aircraft payload/range and route experience etc, but surely there will be a substantial capacity "ready to hand" with which to overcome any strike action.

2) The ballot paper specified non-adherence to QF company policy along the lines of substituting PAs, and uniforms, refusing to use company SMS etc. How does this constitute protected industrial action. Striking is one thing, but once at work would it not be a requirement to observe company policy - else be subject to disciplinary action?

Appreciate the time of anyone for taking the trouble to repond.

[DirectAnywhere]

Network, I'll try and answer your questions to the best of my ability!

1. QF shorthaul and Jetstar are not affected by this vote and must continue to work as normal. Should they refuse to do so it is considered to be a secondary boycott and individuals/ the union may be subject to significant fines. The only Qantas pilots covered are those under the long haul EA (767, A330, B747 and A380).

2. Any variation from normal work practices is considered industrial action. AIPA have applied to undertake certain activities that differ from normal practice but which will NOT impact safety or security. Fair Work Australia (the former industrial relations ombudsman) has approved a ballot which Long Haul pilots overwhelmingly voted for.

Provided long haul pilots comply with the conditions of the PIA ballot, they are untouchable (at least in a legal sense).

[Network]

Thank you for taking the time.

Hope this all works out sensibly - the best outcome for all.

[ACT Crusader]

Network - good questions. The AIPA ballot also includes band and limitations on work, so theoretically pilots could attend work and complete certain functions and adhere to certain responsibilities, but not others.

This is where it gets tricky for QF because they have to pay pilots for the work done and can withhold part of their pay for work not done. QF will have to work out the value etc. Conversely, QF could turnaround and say they are not going to accept the partial work, and QF pilots have the option to just stay at home....

[Dale Hardale]

What are the actual numbers of QF shorthaul v the longhaul pilots ?

[teresa green]

Going Boeing, have to make a comment on the S/O situation, whilst recognising that we all have to start somewhere, as a domestic skipper and probably the oldest S/O ever in QF after "that year" (please note Seven years after that year, in case of the s$ab accusations starting), being a S/O is money for jam. As a previous C@T skipper I saw pilots in QF I would not feed, and I saw pilots in TN (TAA) I would not feed. Indeed it was a interesting example of human behaviour, to watch a fairly young skipper in QF try to deal with someone the same age as his ol man, sitting behind him, with double the hours he had. Most were pleasant, slightly apologetic, (they need not be) and interested, in who you were and why you ended up in that situation. (Please note that fellas) its not a good place to be, down the bottom of the woodpile again. The pay was good, but somehow it did not make up for the feeling of loss of job, and perhaps dignity. It was my observation (lets be honest there is not much else to do) that Australian pilots regardless of what airline they work for or be either F/O on domestic or S/O on QF are pretty much a good well trained disciplined mob, flying OS for sometime only cemented this point of view, as I came across some shockers. There is little difference between a Domestic F/O or QF S/O, little difference at all.

[Shark Patrol]

Can we just put this S/O-bashing cr*p back in the box please? I'm sure there have been threads and threads on this in the past, and it is just more smokescreen at the moment.

There are three points about the S/O situation:

1. As already pointed out, a four-man crew with two S/Os is a SAVING to Qantas compared to how other airlines crew their long-range flights.

2. Under the QF contract, the S/O rate of pay is a pure MATHEMATICAL proportion of the CPT's pay for that fleet - A380 crew make more per hour than B767 crew (I'm sure there have been a million thrads on this too). If S/O pay is drastically cut, then it would be an extension of the same argument that an A380 F/O makes more than a B767 CPT etc.

3. Ask any Qantas S/O whether they WANTED to be a S/O when they joined Qantas and I'm sure their answer would have been a resounding NO! - but that's the way it has always been for Qantas longhaul. Since the advent of J* (and particularly since the rise to power of the twerp) advancement in mainline is non-existent. Since there is more money to be made on the senior fleets, it is only natural that seniority is used to move onto a higher paid aircraft - the prestige of a window seat or the extra gold/silver on the shoulder doesn't pay the bills!

Now, to answer the other question of NETWORK, I don't think there will be capacity "ready to hand" for strike-breaking. If shorthaul is a goldmine and longhaul is a DOG and Jetstar is an amaaaaaaazing business, why would you divert capacity to support a DOG. If you were looking at wet-leasing, this is very expensive and difficult to organize if its a medium (long?) term requirement. Besides which, I don't think AIPA will be going to hit the big red all-out STRIKE button for some time - it will be a range of other annoyances for management first (and by legal definition, Qantas's response can only be commensurate and proportional to the action taken by us against them).

[Rabbitwear]

So all the company wants is to cut the salary of the highest paid pilots in the world, same as CX United , american they all chopped at the top.
it would seem better to accept the JQ contract and free movement between the 2 entities. rather than a massive culling because of the greedy individuals sitting at the top of the tree who really have nothing to lose either way .
We are being used by these individuals so they can go out with guns blazing, there is enough jobs in Australia for all, so its best us junior brethren do not fight off a chance for a secure future.
Dont strike if you want to stay in Australia. :D

[DutchRoll]

AIPA can't call an all-out strike as such, because it was not an option on the ballot. PIA is constrained to what was voted on. As much as people bag AIPA and warn about strikes, they are seriously not that stupid, having closely observed what happened in '89.

As Steve Purvinas has very appropriately said (if I recall his comments at a meeting correctly): the point of PIA is to make Alan Joyce's life hell and his position untenable until he decides he'll negotiate in good faith. Not to tick off the entire nation.

Everyone should also bear in mind that Qantas, through their magnificent (sarcasm) spokespeople, are going to exaggerate the pilot claims severely. Take what they say with a grain of salt. Or if you don't want to do that, divide it by 10 and you'll get a better approximation of what the claims really are. Also bear in mind that AIPA have said outright that everything is negotiable, except the inclusion of a scope clause in the EBA (and there are precedents for scope clauses too). They are not demanding that Qantas never retrench another pilot. They are asking for what is basically the equivalent of "labelling laws" in the EBA, ie, the ingredients on the label are what you find in the tin.

[noip]

RW
So all the company wants is to cut the salary of the highest paid pilots in the world

I think you will find that the world extends beyond the landmass of Australia and New Zealand.

If you are talking about this planet we call Earth, then all I can say is for you to at least get your facts straight. QF pilots are FAR from being the highest paid in the world.

You are just talking rubbish.

N

[Beer Baron]

Rabbitwear, who are you speaking for? I am fairly certain you are not a Qantas pilot so how can you suggest;
We are being used by these individuals...
From your other posts it appears that you are employed by Jetstar and have an unhealthy hatred of AIPA and seniority. The AIPA strategy has no direct impact on you so excuse those of us that this does affect if we ignore your ignorant suggestions on how we should manage the situation.

A call to: accept the JQ contract and free movement between the 2 entities seems very self serving on your part. Something you accuse the AIPA COM of being guilty of in most of your posts.

Perhps noip put it best: You are just talking rubbish!

[assasin8]

For all those armchair "experts" out there, who plainly know very little about what is actually going on, as opposed to the QF media spin... Explain why QF management were unable to answer the simple question of what it was they needed from us financially, to make us "competitive"? The question was met with blank looks all round the negotiating table... So much for negotiating in good faith with supposed "senior officers" of the company! :hmm:

[Zapatas Blood]

“a four-man crew with two S/Os is a SAVING to Qantas compared to how other airlines crew their long-range flights.”

Ahhh, no its not mate. MOST Asian carriers you compete against would cream you in the battle of the low cockpit costs. Your 400 SO’s get more than many widebody captains. Sorry to burst your bubble but you really should arm yourself with all of the facts before entering battle.

“QF pilots are FAR from being the highest paid in the world.”

Ahhh, no, pretty close actually. There are some obvious high flying payers out there but QF would be up towards the summit.

[Shark Patrol]

Zapatas,

I was talking about it being a saving compared to what they would be paying if they crewed the aircraft with two Captains and two F/Os (which is the practice in many other airlines). I was NOT talking about relative duty hour pay rates between different airlines.

I know that you love Qantas bashing, but have you got it now?

[fatbus]

This is going to fun to watch. QF long haul defending their position at all cost, my guess a few very senior Capt's doing everything to protect their Tand C's and could care less of the anyone else. Lets face it even a 30=40 % cut in QF longhaul and all Capt's maintain LHS seat, is there a hugh difference in pay from 767/330/747 for a Senior capt ?

[Zapatas Blood]

“I was talking about it being a saving compared to what they would be paying if they crewed the aircraft with two Captains and two F/Os”

Right, got it. Despite running crewing costs higher than most other carriers, at least its done with SO’s that cant operate in a control seat if required. And often carrying 4 crew when the competition is carrying 3.

And You reckon there is a saving?

[balance]

Zapatas....

I just reviewed your posting history, and you seem to have an uncanny bent against Qantas pilots. You unerringly dispute that they are the best in the world (whether they are implied to be or not, is not mine to say...), you dispute that they are remunerated appropriately, etc.

Just wondering - why is this so? Care to explain? What is it about the rat that p1sses you off so much?

I ask this because your statement:

MOST Asian carriers you compete against would cream you in the battle of the low cockpit costs.

is quite obvious. No-one would dispute this.

But their standard of training is WAY less than ours (I've attempted to train them - a difficult job which is why I say I've tried). Their cost of living is WAY less than ours. Their reputation is WAY less than ours. There is nothing racist in what I'm saying. It is fact. Don't like it? I really don't care.

So I take exception when you divert a discussion with what really is a red herring.

[Visual Procedures]

All I read in the papers and see on the news is that the QANTAS "LONG HAUL" pilots are going on strike. To the average punter this is not a big deal because not many average punters fly "long haul" regularly.

Why is it not being emphasized that Qantas Long Haul pilots don't just fly overseas, but are in fact the backbone of Qantas's City Flyer network?

[Nuthinondaclock]

even a 30=40 % cut in QF longhaul and all Capt's maintain LHS seat

How do you figure that? Take away 30 to 40% of the fleet or crew numbers and there would be a relative loss of positions in all ranks.

is there a hugh difference in pay from 767/330/747 for a Senior capt

Yup, there sure is.

my guess a few very senior Capt's doing everything to protect their Tand C's and could care less of the anyone else.

Your guess is wrong! You might want to read the start of this thread; 93% of the 89% of eligible voters feel strongly enough about this to take PIA. (And no, I'm not a Senior Captain.)

We're not doing this to inprove our T & C's. QF haven't even wanted to discuss pay. We're taking this action to try and prevent a management, who couldn't care less about the long term survival of Qantas, taking our jobs and offshoring them to 3rd party crewing providers to the detriment of an Australia Icon and us as Australian Employees.

[DutchRoll]

But their standard of training is WAY less than ours (I've attempted to train them - a difficult job which is why I say I've tried). Their cost of living is WAY less than ours. Their reputation is WAY less than ours. There is nothing racist in what I'm saying. It is fact. Don't like it? I really don't care.
I was about to say much the same thing, with the added emphasis that for some of the said "low cockpit cost" Asian carriers, I wouldn't fly on them even if you gave me the ticket for free.

[Going Boeing]

Porch, my post was not meant to denigrate domestic F/O's in any way but to highlight that the QF S/O's are just as important (& skilled) as domestic F/O's. This comment - (& may even have better skills) - in my last post was a reflection of the lengthy recruiting process that QF had in place which theoretically should result in selection of the best applicants. As TG has stated, it's not a foolproof system.

I know of a number of pilots who couldn't accept the role of S/O and consequently did not apply for QF - preferring instead to take an F/O position with a LCC (possibly on a lower salary). The advantage of this route was the perception of a quick command (providing the airline keeps expanding). The downside is the possibility of remaining on the one aircraft type (flying the same route structure repeatedly) for the rest of their career with that company. It's an individual choice that has no connection with a pilots flying skills. I hope that those who have been derogatory of S/O's (or cruise F/O's as they are called in some airlines) on this forum re-evaluate their thoughts and treat their peers with the respect that they deserve.

[reacher]

Really? This is the message that is getting out. Really?

Surely someone at the union(s) can start getting a handle on this media business and start, well at least try and start directing the much needed media campaign.


THE MESSSAGE, apparently (http://bigpondnews.com/articles/TopStories/2011/07/13/Qantas_engineers_to_use_left_hands_637387.html)

[*Lancer*]

The sooner AIPA embraces a ‘B’-scale with more appropriate fleet-pay and overtime bands the better it will be for everyone.

You could even have fleet-pay across the whole Group in conjunction with translated promotional opportunities.

Unity, right?

No-one is 'bashing' S/Os. The arguments for and against S/O rates of pay have nothing to do with whether pilots did or did not want the chance to fly for Qantas, or whether or not they have a bagload of skills and experience to bring with them, or whether they're a cost saving or not. It's about the actual work tasks performed, and being sufficient remuneration to attract enough pilots who meet the standards required. Nevertheless, the discrepancies therein are only a small part of the immediate problem.

[empire4]

well said lancer.

I hope for Australias sake this will be the outcome. I was not attempting to 'bash' SO's, which many of my friends are. They know my opinion and understand my point of view. I hope more people head this way of thought.

[jack diamond]

Left handed engineers ? is this the best this mob can do? this is F@#$%^ pathetic you are all gone for all money get the public on side ? you have to be joking PATHETIC

[ejectx3]

Wrong union

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Those pushing for pay reductions and "B" scales are probably the same ones pushing for QF / Jetstar joint seniority, I wonder why that is ?.

They do not have the stones to negotiate for themselves, guess they are hoping you'll do it for them.

The battle in the media is only a way to effect the share prices. You vote on accepting or not accepting any future EBA, public opinion has no bearing on that process.

[reacher]

It's not about the union. It's about the message that the unions are allowing to be out there. Get a hold on the media side of things and everyone could actually make some headway. Now the left handed thing is what's going to be the news rather than the real demands.

[framer]

Two Qantas engineers, one in Melbourne and one in Perth, will use their left hands to operate tools while performing maintenance for a week starting Friday.

Yes it's the wrong union.
It is bl00dy embarrassing as well.
The public is going to mentally associate it with the pilots action, to them, it is just Qantas employees behaving like ten year olds.
Every Qantas employee has just dropped in the estimation of Joe public.
What a shame.

[Mud Skipper]

All Qantas Captains will fly their aircraft with the Left Hand....... shocking news:}:}:}:}:}

[teresa green]

Or only with their left foot, Mud, that should make for some interesting flying, and certainly make the public sit up and notice.:E

[Mud Skipper]

Errr,

Here's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony) the link if you didn't follow me, it's called irony. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Ken Borough]

All Qantas Captains will fly their aircraft with the Left Hand....... shocking news


..and we all know what they will do with the other hand. :}

[DirectAnywhere]

This message is hidden because Ken Borough is on your ignore list.


Ahhhhhhhh, :) found it!

[Shark Patrol]

.and we all know what they will do with the other hand.

I guess managers have underlings to do that for them do they Ken?

[teresa green]

Only in "lighties" lads and then on your own:E

[Zapatas Blood]

“What is it about the rat that p1sses you off so much?”

ahh, nuttin. No problem with the rat. Sorry if my opinion doesn’t conform to your (narrow) opinion but I guess it’s a free world.

“(I've attempted to train them - a difficult job which is why I say I've tried)”

Who’s “them”. Pilots from all carriers in Asia? You must have been busy. I have flown with pilots in 4 Asian carriers and in MANY cases have had no problem with them.

“Their cost of living is WAY less than ours”

Really? Many live in cities MUCH more expensive than oz, but they get by.

My opinion is – you guys could be headed for a fall if you think you are not replaceable OR good value for money. QF doesn’t pay you 350k to sit LHS in a glass jet snoring your ass off across the ocean because they want to – they do it because of industrial fat built up over millions of years. Do you really want to invite an alternative?

A 97% vote does not mean you will win or that you are right. It just indicates you are all on the same doomed bus heading over a cliff.

[WorthWhat]

There is some truth in what you say Zapatus.

If the Workforce blinks, the jobs go. If they don’t, the international operation can’t afford to reequip.

If Management blinks, shareholders will skin them. If they don’t, agree the bus will go over the cliff.

So where to from there.

[teresa green]

You obviously did not fly in the airlines I did. Some would have not passed the PPL in this country. Hopefully 89 will never rear its head again. No, it won't rear its head again. These blokes are in a much better position.

[TIMA9X]

AC4YLWEWPYI

Great stuff! :D
This is your captain speaking: Qantas pilots to 'disturb' passengers with IR campaign | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/this-is-your-captain-speaking-qantas-pilots-to-disturb-passengers-with-ir-campaign/story-e6frg95x-1226097450830)

Only a journalist would add "disturb" in a headline like this. As if the pax on last weeks Springbok flight weren't disturbed.:ugh:

.

[hotnhigh]

Just heard the sound bite on sky news where Olivia was proclaiming that QF management were not prepared to hand over the management of the company to the qantas pilots union.
Funnily enough, no mention of free seats or the 26% pay rise.

And as for getting back to handing over management of QF, perhaps one wouldn't want to hand over to a conservative group of employees that have only have the long term future of the airline as their consideration. (engineers included in the hand over!):D

[standard unit]

If the company had been run by the pilot's union at any time in it's recent past Qantas wouldn't be burdened by competing with carriers flying aircraft that burn 30% less fuel.

It also wouldn't have suffered the infamous A332 config disasters that costs tens of millions to fix.

No, we're run by the "smartest guys in the room".

Eh, Olivia ??

[TIMA9X]

QF management were not prepared to hand over the management of the company to the qantas pilots union.
She sounds desperate with this very immature response.:=
Simply out of her depth.

[mcgrath50]

Read the comments on the article :{ we have a lot of ground to catch up.

[ozaub]

Interestingly heard a somewhat similar pitch on American. Flying recently from SFO to HNL capt speaking objected several times to AA cutting the route "after 50 years". Urged pax to lobby against the cut and even provided email address! What next; berate SLF about carbon tax?

[Ken Borough]

Qantas pilots are out of order with their proposed PA announcements. They are paid to fly the aeroplane, not spruik a particular industrial cause. I wonder how they'd react if the Company directed them to make an announcement deploring actions by for example the ALAEA because the Last Post was played at the end of their recent very childish one-minute stop work meeting?

Why of why aggravate what customer base you have left? If you have a fight with the Company, have it by all means but don't involve the customer. Pretty simple really but for industrial pygmies, nothing is too simple.

Note to all: I expect to be pilloried by the usual suspects as a result of this post so please don't waste your energy and bandwidth doing so. :ok:

[Ka.Boom]

Why Oh Why do you even bother wasting your bandwidth ?

[Artificial Horizon]

Isn't this type of industrial action a bit 'childish'. I can understand a strict work to rule, or a mass walk out, but breaking uniform code and making PA's to the passengers about the campaign ??? Flights continue uninterrupted and without delay..... how is this giving management a bloody nose? :ugh:

[Ixixly]

Pardon my potential ignorance here, but with these PAs and such, aren't they simply doing what Qantas Management are already doing in the Media? Getting their side of the story out, something that doesn't seem to appear in any of the Mainstream Media out there?

[maggot]

Ixixly; bang on target - awareness. Get the message out there, how can this be so hard for people to comprehend?

[Come in spinner]

I think it is a good idea, not childish.
Media and public picks up on the fact that pa's are a soft approach to get management negotiating without disrupting pax and damaging the bottom line.
Message spread by word of mouth.
Management needs to realise WE are holding the balls and CAN squeeze when it suits.
Game on:D

[watch your6]

They're baaaack !!!
No wonder Qantas is in trouble the quality of their trolls woeful

[ejectx3]

Ken we were directed to make PA's during that last engineer dispute and I can safely say that nobody followed that directive.

So in short we supported the engineers actions and refused to make PA's blaming the engineers for delays....

[Shark Patrol]

If you have a fight with the Company, have it by all means but don't involve the customer.

Maybe in the Qantas carpark then Ken at lunchtime? 1700 longhaul pilots would love to have a piece of Clifford, Joyce and Brucie!! Maybe you could turn up and help support your management mates!

[balance]

Funny how Ken expects to "waste his bandwidth" having his say, but he recommends that others don't waste theirs having their say. Why is that Ken? You don't place any value in others opinions? Gee, sounds just like Qantas management, doesn't it? "We talk - you listen". Well, unlucky for you and your Qantas executives, because we are going to have our say - and you ARE GOING TO LISTEN!

Simple as this, Ken. It states quite clearly in the Qantas FAM (if you really are a management tool, then you should be aware of this - maybe you should do your job and take some time to read it...!), that Qantas pilots are EXPECTED to make PA's. So why then would you suggest that they are only paid to fly the aircraft? Well, thats not true is it? If we just did that, and paid no attention to customer service, then that could be considered to be "industrial action", couldn't it?

No Ken, I think it better that we comply with the FAM, and pay PARTICULAR attention to customer service. We should ENSURE that our customers KNOW THE FULL STORY.

You are a fool, Ken. Go away, because frankly, most on this site value your opinion about as much as you value theirs. Which aint much.

[Jethro Gibbs]

PA's to the passengers about the campaign .
The passengers could not give a rats arse they are not going look up some web site this is as weak as ALAEA 1 minute stoppage may as well not even bother Qantas managment would be laughing at this time has come to hire a professional negotiator arse kicker but a fear its to late.:ugh:

[DutchRoll]

Ken, maybe you wouldn't be pilloried if you displayed a grasp of the facts.

As stated by ejectx3, we were instructed by Qantas management via a class 2 intam at flight planning to make PAs during the engineering dispute blaming the engineers for departure delays, even when it wasn't actually the engineers' fault!

No-one I know of made it. It was treated with the contempt it deserved.

Jethro - also a grasp of the facts would be helpful to you too. The engineers quite clearly stated that the 1 minute stoppage is to satisfy the FWA legal requirement to keep their PIA valid without having to go to another vote or apply for an extension.

C'mon management stooges. Surely working your way up to the dizzying heights of management requires the ability to do robust factual research before opening your mouth, doesn't it? Oh, wait a minute......just realised what I said! ;)

[DirectAnywhere]

This message is hidden because Ken Borough is on your ignore list.

He's the only poster on that list. Man, it feels good!

Jethro, the one minute stoppages are just to ensure that some action is taken within the legally proscribed timeframe. If that action is not taken, another PIA vote is required. The real action will start shortly.

Meanwhile, QANTAS management continues to pay their strikebreaking engineers who are on expensive fixed term contracts.

They've already wasted two months worth of their six month contracts for nothing.

[Artificial Horizon]

Don't get me wrong, I am all for industrial action to 'sharpen' managements focus. It just seems to me that after all the effort of the ballot and all the chest beating to actually formulate this as a 'plan' is bizarre. Why not just have a series of 1 day strikes spaced two days apart over the period of 10 days. Back that up with a strong media campaign to get your point across. Making two 'PA's' on a 12 hour longhaul flight will only be listened to be a minority of passengers, I would be surprised if ANY pax then go on to actually look at the website. But hey, I wish you luck.

[Motorola]

Very roughly, about half the pilots on the long haul award are flying domestically. So 4 sectors per day = 8 modified pa's per day per Captain.

Cost to pilots association = zero.

Disruption to passengers = only the time needed to make the modified pa's.

[Artificial Horizon]

Motorolla,

So are you saying that in this 'fight' for the very future of Qantas jobs the top of the list when it comes to industrial action is to make sure it is 'Zero' cost to the pilots association?

Also, not everyone who disagrees with the manner in which IA is being undertaken is a management troll.

[Trent 972]

pukuTake a step backwards people and look at yourslves.

OK Done that.
1 x Commodore and 1 x Falcon
Looking forward to your continued support, puku. Thanking you in advance.

[the rim]

first of all let me say congrats to the AIPA.....well done in your ballot and the result....But I am a bit lost about the "PA" to be made on friday,maybe the company will step in and stop it using some sort of PPM rule,and if thats the case you got your hour in the sun.But having travelled a lot,yes the punters do take notice when you guys/girls hit the PTT switch,but only to hear the if the flights going to bumpy and the flt time....anything more is lost......great idear and its already got the msg across........the rim

[Flugbegleiter]

Qantas pilots are out of order with their proposed PA announcements...
So you'd prefer the pilots to take harsher action that most certainly would impact flight schedules, etc? Aren't one or two short PAs explaining their situation better for the travelling public than flight cancellations and delays?

Personally, I would rather see a tougher fight, though I guess it may come to that yet...

[Howard Hughes]

Flights continue uninterrupted and without delay..... how is this giving management a bloody nose?
Judging by the response from management on the evening news (via Olivia), I think they are very concerned!

The actions that I have heard mooted from friends at Qantas I think are very measured and should hurt the company without disenfranchising passengers.:ok:

[Fliegenmong]

You can afford the petrol & rego on TWO six cylinder cars????..... In Australia!!!!

**** me :eek:

I'll stick with my 10 yr old 318is Bimmer and 13 yr old Bulletproof Camry sh!tbox
(Which BTW for Bobby Browns benefit has an oil leak in the back of the engine, and it is cheaper for me to top up with oil than it is to lift the motor out and fix the seal!:}) Ha! it only sits in a staff car park in the sun, and goes to the beach anyway.....:ok:

The 318is is a damn pleasure in the hills though....and I am not a car person by any stretch!

All the best boys & girls!....though somehow I suspect a good deal of your pax fly mainline paid for by their companies, and their jobs may well entail looking to offshore jobs....suspect little sympathy from those that seek to benefit the same way as leprechaun & Clifford will do.....expect nothing form those who would prefer to fly mainline but can only afford the orange cancer either....

I fear the whole "Board a QF Flight Expect a QF Pilot campaign will resonate with very few...

[DutchRoll]

Seriously, Puku?

I mean, seriously? This is what it has come down to? What car we drive?

If it's any help to you, I don't know many of my fellow longhaul pilots at all who are driving around in shiny new Mercedes or BMWs. Personally, I have a beaten up old 1988 Nissan and a Honda sedan for the wife to drive to work which I bought when the Falcon died (which in turn replaced the Torana).

Yes indeed, my excess is on display for all to see. And is there seriously something wrong with caring a lot about my own job anyway?

[beechie]

puku= internet/management troll. For those who don't know trolls are those who post just to make trouble.

2 posts in 6 months. Both talking about cars. This is a pilots forum, if cars are your thing maybe try another forum.

Back to the topic. Good luck boys and girls. Hope it all goes well. :D

[RATpin]

Watch out Trent,you may be in for a visit from Russell Ingal and crew.
1 Ford + 1 GMH in the driveway!

[Handbrake]

Oh Ken it's so much fun when you pop into Pprune and make your churlish statements. Maybe you are a troll for Luke Skywalker's side of the debate, throwing up antagonistic lines, so that we can all wax lyrical!

"If you have a fight with the Company, have it by all means but don't involve the customer".
But hang on Ken, AIPA has had an ongoing "fight" (most prefer the word 'negotiation' in these mod times) for more than 9 months, and now the bastard child has been born. Is it a boy, is it a girl, nooooo... it's a new airline in Asia with the cheapest most inexperienced pilots on offer.

I can hear Management's parting words "Sorry boys and girls your jobs are now defunct 'cause wev'e found a bunch of wannabe cashed up pilots/high school drop-outs, with shiny jet syndrome. See ya later Australia. To be sure,to be sure...."

[Handbrake]

rim,
QF management are unable to interfere with the PA's as they have been approved by FWA. If management were to interfere then they contravene the FWA ruling and penalties apply.

[Shark Patrol]

Puku,

2 Commodores for me - the newest one is over ten years old.

Dipstick!!!!

[Cactusjack]

Note to all: I expect to be pilloried by the usual suspects as a result of t his post so please don't waste your energy and bandwidth doing so.
Ken Ken Ken, I see that you have taken a break from making coffee and cleaning custard stains off managements suits so you can post on Prune ?
I don't know what is sicker, your inflamed lust for management sphincter or the way you style your hair like your mentor Wirthless ?

Ken face the facts, you will only ever be a fan of management, you don't have the smarts to accomplish anything deeper than stare longingly at management as they bypass you blissfully on the way to the boardroom. Pretty much the same way you were ignored at school due to your penchant for fondling the tuckshop ladies flabby arms and playing with yourself at the same time. Then again, you were also ignored as a child because as your siblings were becoming educated and obtaining lucrative jobs you were still spending hours every day plane spotting at the end of Brisbane's runways, note pad in one hand eagerly jotting down aircraft rego's and again, your old fella in the other hand.
Which brings us to Prune and the continuation of a life long dream of yours - to be famous within aviation. Sadly, again, like a bastard child you lose. Nobody likes you, nobody considers you to be nothing short of a suckhole or a poorly educated ice-cream van driver. Ken, please find a very tall tree, take a thick piece of rope and do your best Michael Hutchence impersonation..

[600ft-lb]

Always question motives of posters on public forums, such as prominent ones like PPrune who join specifically to disagree with you.

'puku' is probably just applying lessons learned in IR101 in his Tafe Cert IV, derail public comment by posting crap on a forum.

It's amazing the managers who think they are the only ones in the world deserving of wages in excess of $100,000.

After you are only employed under the title of 'Pilot' not

'Senior Advisor to the Executive General Manager of the Department of Quality Risk for the Management of the Operations of all aspects of the Treasury's Paper Supply'

One job manages a machine that if mishandled could kill up to 500 people+ in a single hit, the other carries out risk assessments on the possibility of a paper cut and the effect that could have on supply of a printing and replication medium.

After all, some people know they are important.. Others need big job titles to make them feel important, then post on PPrune to tell the important people how overpaid and undeserving they are.

[ACT Crusader]

Handbrake wrote

rim,
QF management are unable to interfere with the PA's as they have been approved by FWA. If management were to interfere then they contravene the FWA ruling and penalties apply.


That's right. Basically QF can allow the ban to go ahead, or espond by lockout - would seem OTT; or not accept the ban - ala the left-hand LAMEs - and not pay pilots that choose to make the union PA announcements.

[Em773ER]

Pardon my ignorance folks, i'm just a curious kid with a quick question. Even if pilots get their way and QF agrees to secure jobs of pilots, what's to stop QF from recruiting offshore pilots in the future when all the new fleet starts coming in?. My understanding of all this is (and please correct me if i'm wrong), current QF long haul pilots want QF to agree that they will never retrench another pilot (mostly in the event QF employs offshore pilots on lower wages). Basically what i'm getting to is will this new agreement make sure that QF can't employ offshore pilots at all in the future?.... thanks in advance.

[carbonneutral]

Em773ER,
The job security clause that has been put forward does not make Qantas pilots 'unsackable'. All it simply states that any Qantas flying done under a Qantas flight number is done under the Long Haul award OR conditions equal or greater.

[Em773ER]

Thanks carbonneutral. Could you (or anyone who can) please point out the "key" conditions from the Long Haul award that would state/imply QF pilots under this award must have such as the right to work/live in Australia, Australian licenses etc etc to name a couple... or did I just answer my question?. Thanks again, just trying to understand the whole story. Cheers :ok:

[TIMA9X]

UqGNVOKbLDQ

I thought this was worth posting on here as I believe this was a extremely good interview conducted by Nathan Safe, for AIPA. He got many runs on the board in a short space of time. Well worth a listen again.

Kudos Nathan :ok:

[carbonneutral]

Em773ER,
As far as I'm aware those rules are covered by Australian workplace and Australian aviation law. Which is why Qantas is looking to hire outside Australia to bypass these rules. The job security clause, by stating that Qantas flights, regardless of place of employment, must be under the long haul award OR conditions equal or greater, takes away this incentive.

[unionist1974]

Billboard's on the M4 , Chats over the PA to the punters , I minute stop work meetings , lefthanded LAME's , and of course playing the last post .
Was this how we won the conditions we enjoy today , 38 hr week , LSL , Superanuation , Annual Leave , Workers Comp , Redundancy pay etc ? Real Unionists must be P*****G themselves at your antics , get fair dinkum and run a real campaign . No Pain - No Gain , but I forgot , you belong to Associations , not Unions . What a disgrace you are , you bring shame on the whole movement with your childish antics . Winning IR battles is not a popularity contest , you have to be prepared to shed blood . But carry on with your delusional "campaign" the punters on the M4 struggling to pay their petrol bills to get to work , couldn't give a stuff about you .They are worried about their own jobs and families and if needed they will get fair dinkum .

[*Lancer*]

carbonneutral and Em777ER, you've finally taken us to the point!

There is nothing to stop Qantas from employing foreign/other pilots and basing them overseas

The job security clauses do not provide job security, because the document (LHCA) is only valid for an Australian based company. QantasAsia - or whatever it may be called - if wholly incorporated overseas, may be completely independent from Australian industrial law in the same way that Jetstar Asia, and Jetstar NZ is...

Unfortunately, that's the key battle here.

[TIMA9X]

from the Australian,

http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2011/04/19/1226041/761625-alan-joyce.jpg
NEXT month's announcement on restructuring Qantas International will signal the start of phased but tough transformation of the airline over coming years that could include replicating the airline's successful frequent flyer scheme offshore. Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce raised the prospect in a speech at a Sydney aviation conference today that was also likely to heighten speculation of a full-service offshoot in Asia.
Mr Joyce told the Australia Pacific Aviation Outlook Summit that the airline's review of its international operations would aim to keep Qantas Australia's leading premium airline while strengthening the focus on alliances, reviewing non-performing business segments and expanding in Asia.
"Change is always tough," he said. "But the competitive challenges we face make major change essential and our commitment to the change process is absolute.
"I believe we have a major opportunity to go beyond the natural limitations of our market size and geography, to become a champion Australian company in a globalised region and world."


Mr Joyce reiterated the airline's interest in Asia and China and pointed to Jetstar's rapid expansion in the region.
He said there was also an enormous opportunity to leverage the mainline carrier's excellence in brand management, aviation safety and other skills.
And in what appears to be a reference to a potential Asian full-service airline, Mr Joyce said the company saw continuing opportunities for the Jetstar model and "lessons to be learned for Qantas".
"I want to see both our airline brands maximising their global potential," he said, adding that the frequent flyer program was also "a business model than can be replicated in other markets".
Mr Joyce also used the speech to attack union leaders pursuing industrial action for being out of touch and blocking new business models.
He said new maintenance regulations issued by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority to bring Australia into line with Europe recognised the enormous advances in aviation technologies.
The new regulations were a huge step forward for aviation safety that Qantas was capitalising on through a new system called Project Marlin.
The largest and most complex IT project ever undertaken by Qantas engineering, Mr Joyce said Marlin allowed Qantas to look at a sophisticated database and get an instant maintenance update on any aircraft anywhere in the world.
The airline would start with its Airbus A380s and progressively phase in the rest of the fleet in what represented the biggest improvement to the airline's maintenance systems since record keeping began.
"More broadly, Qantas is spending billions on next generation aircraft with advanced computer systems linked to ground systems to enable the detailed monitoring of aviation performance in real time," he said.
"The vast majority of people within our business have helped us to maximise the capabilities of these aircraft in terms of fuel-efficient flying techniques and new product and service offerings," he said.
"But our maintenance and repair costs are among the least efficient and most expensive in the world.
"So it's time to catch up. We don't repair our cars the same we did 40 years ago. We can't repair our planes the same way either." my bold

"We can't repair our planes the same way either"
you can say that again AJ :rolleyes:

[ozbiggles]

Interesting to note to where Steve Creedy put the story in the Australian.
In the second half of a story hidden behind the Headline about Qantas closing its Travel Agent shop fronts.
Advertising dollar wins every time.

[SilverSleuth]

I think it is obvious. AJ and co DO NOT want to solve/compromise with the pilots or engineers. This is "break them time" for them. I feel very sorry for the qantas team. He is just hellbent on breaking it.

[Shark Patrol]

That's right. Basically QF can allow the ban to go ahead, or espond by lockout - would seem OTT; or not accept the ban - ala the left-hand LAMEs - and not pay pilots that choose to make the union PA announcements.

Crusader,

The FWA legislation (as I understand it) ensures that action taken by the employer is proportional to the action taken by the employees. If QF were to respond to the making of PAs by pilots with lockouts and docking of pay, I imagine it would find itself in FWA in about a nanosecond. So while these actions would be consistent with QF's bullying style, the FWA should ensure that it does not happen.

[ACT Crusader]

I don't disagree shark patrol.

The PA announcement is a ban. The FWA allows an employer to reduce pay because of bans, regardless of what the ban might be, but it also means a worker can complete other work and still get paid for it.

If part of your job as a pilot is to say "this is your captain speaking etc etc", and you chose to not say it for the purposes of PIA then it leaves it open for QF to deduct pay proportional to the ban taking place.

It is open for QF to not accept the ban altogether though. Again the reasons behind that could be disputed in FWA

[Keg]

FWA allows the company to reduce pay on the basis of how much the respective PIA 'costs' the company. The response by the company needs to be in proportion. They'd be hard pressed to argue that the PIA costs the company a single red cent.

The case law given to QF drivers was that of a group of bus drivers in Canberra who refused to take cash for travel. Their union argued that they spent only 1% of the day doing this part of the job so that is what they should be docked. The company argued that they lost 50% of their income so that is what should be docked of the pay. I don't remember the specifics but FWA ruled on a combination of factors and it cost the drivers about 20%.

This one is not going to register a blip to QF unless they decide to be even more antagonistic than they already have.

[DutchRoll]

The PA announcement is a ban. The FWA allows an employer to reduce pay because of bans, regardless of what the ban might be, but it also means a worker can complete other work and still get paid for it.
Well, the employer has to be a little careful there. Fair Work Australia can knock that on the head, and by law must take into account the "nature and extent" of the partial work ban (which, yes, as bizarre as it sounds, the extra PAs full under the definition of).

The employer would look pretty silly docking you a week's (or even a day's) pay for making an extra PA when there is no company prescribed limit on how many PAs you can make in the first place, nor when exactly you are allowed to make them, for obvious reasons. As pointed out, it's very difficult to imagine how Qantas could possibly argue (and quantify) that the PA costs them anything at all.

The company may well try to be a***holes, but there are limits as to how far they can take that in practice.

[kaikohe76]

Folks,

I have no connection at all with either QANTAS or Australian Aviation either.

On the current plan for a strike by QANTAS Pilots, I would however make the following comments.

- Remember 1989/90, did this really result in better pay & conditions for those Aussie Pilots involved at the time.

- Many workers in many industries throughout the world would, be only to happy to receive the present pay & conditions that QANTAS Pilots receive.

- Such actions this can & will, all end in tears & I am confident I know for which party in the current dispute.


Safe flying

[ACT Crusader]

Keg - that was the Action Buses case. The TWU claimed in some cases two thirds of the pay was deducted. But as you say, FWA ordered that 20.1% of pay be deducted. FWA said:


the payments to drivers implementing the partial work ban should be decreased by an amount which reasonably approximates to the percentage that fare collection revenue represents of ACTION’s total expenses. According to the submissions of ACTION this formula would result in the total payment made to each driver for each shift in which the ban is imposed being reduced by 20.1%.


Dutchroll - Agree. I guess that is why bans can be so effective....:cool:

[Em773ER]

thanks again for the other response carbonneutral

*Lancer*

The job security clauses do not provide job security, because the document (LHCA) is only valid for an Australian based company. QantasAsia - or whatever it may be called - if wholly incorporated overseas, may be completely independent from Australian industrial law in the same way that Jetstar Asia, and Jetstar NZ is...

interesting point you make... so what does that mean for the job security clause? what will be the end result if all goes to plan? :confused:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

The end result of the job security clause will be a new CEO at Qantas. His security relies on destroying the existing brand by replacing all staff with low cost models.

[*Lancer*]

Perhaps that's the strategy.

I am unaware of how paying Australian-based Qantas subsidiary jet pilots the same LHCA rates (the current 'job security' claim), delivers any direct benefit to existing Qantas pilots. It assumes that all future mainline aircraft will be operated by an Australian-based company, and will probably expedite an offshoring strategy in the absence of AIPA consultation or inclusion.

The Jetconnect case result may alter things, but I doubt public perception will. Who knows!?

[neville_nobody]

Such actions this can & will, all end in tears & I am confident I know for which party in the current dispute.

Given the alternative being living as an expat in a foreign country working for an Australian airline what do the pilots have to lose?

[big white bird]

someone with qantas, preferably one of you pilots, please tell your main spokesman about southwest airlines' pilots in the united states. they are pretty much hands down the highest paid jet pilots on that continent. that qantas pilot salaries are too high, need lowering and are uncompetitive is just tripe. get onto your boy. tell him to counter the campaign with info such as that of a swa pilot's salary. the end game is that the profitability of an airline is all about how management do their thing. qantas' management are atrocious. swa management are the opposite, and they pay their pilots accordingly. undermine the qantas campaign to undermine you. get onto it fellas. and good luck. (ps smarmy replies accepted. no problem. just get the job done right. this is the only chance you'll ever have. fun example of a possible reply: "yeah well thanks for the assistance, bruce mate, but we're just fine 'cause we here at qantas pilots dot com already know this...and we're onto it? you know? so piss off bruce.") lol.

[ACT Crusader]

Big White Bird,

Things can get pretty messy when you start trying to play the comparison game in the public arena. It can backfire fairly easy if you don't know all the facts/details. Or you can get stuck trying to explain details and your main message(s) get lost.

Southwest's profit margins are currently really low right now and have taken a big dive even in the last 6-9 months. Paying 10year+ pilots $200+/hour won't mean much to the "hearts and minds" here...

[neville_nobody]

Qantas looks to China for future, cautions 'out of touch' unions | ATWOnline (http://atwonline.com/airline-finance-data/news/qantas-looks-china-future-cautions-out-touch-unions-0720)


Qantas looks to China for future, cautions 'out of touch' unions

Qantas declared that its future is in China, the world’s second biggest and fastest growing aviation market, but the airline needs its staff to embrace the radical change to succeed.

Speaking Wednesday at the Australia Pacific Aviation Outlook Summit in Sydney, QF CEO Alan Joyce warned that “out of touch union leaders” who are resisting change don't understand that the carrier's costs are 25% above its competitors such as Singapore Airlines (ATW Daily News, July 14). “Globalization continues to change our world in profound ways and it is still changing the way we work, consume and engage—and it is still driving relentless competition,” said Joyce. “Globalization is not optional and it is not over.”

According to Joyce, China is already home to seven of the world’s top 20 airports by capacity. “By 2020, China will have 15 cities with bigger populations than Sydney and the region will be home to 2.6 billion people. And by 2030 the country expects to have at least three globally recognized international airline hubs, 10 national and regional hubs and at least 244 airports,” he said.

But to capitalize on the booming China and Asia market, QF needs significant change, cautioned Joyce. “Change is always tough. But the competitive challenges we face make major change essential, and our commitment to the change process is absolute,” he said. The CEO noted a significant upside: “I believe we have a major opportunity to go beyond the natural limitations of our market size and geography, to become a champion Australian company in a globalized region and world.”

Joyce noted that QF subsidiary Jetstar operates Asia’s largest and fastest-growing low-fares network. “That is an amazing achievement for an Australian airline,” he said.

On Aug. 24, QF is expected to announce a major restructure of its international operations and a new joint venture to establish an airline in Asia, which will be based in either Malaysia, China or Singapore. Joyce said that the future is “wrapped up in even deeper alliance partnerships and further joint ventures,” but such sentiments do not sit well with unions that fear outsourcing.

According to Joyce, some of the airline’s union leaders are “simply out of touch and trying to block our use of new business models” and that could scuttle expansion plans. Joyce also claimed that some unions are blocking efficiencies that can be delivered by new maintenance technologies.

“Less than a month ago, Australia’s Civil Aviation Safety Authority issued new aviation maintenance regulations that bring Australia into line with European standards and global best practice,” said Joyce.

The new regulations finally recognize the quantum leap in aviation technology, particularly in the sophisticated information, material and design technologies that underpin new aircraft. However, Joyce said the QF engineers’ union is resisting the change. “Our maintenance and repair costs are among the least efficient and most expensive in the world,” he stated. “It’s time to catch up. We don’t repair our cars the same way we did 40 years ago. We can’t repair our planes the same way either. We can—and we will—be safer, smarter and more efficient.”

QF is in a bitter dispute with both its engineers and long-haul pilots, who have voted for industrial action expected to take place in early August (ATW Daily News, July 12).

[peuce]

...the carrier's costs are 25% above its competitors such as Singapore Airlines (ATW Daily News, July 14). “Globalization continues to change our world in profound ways and it is still changing the way we work, consume and engage—and it is still driving relentless competition,” said Joyce. “Globalization is not optional and it is not over.”

It follows from Mr Joyce's comments that he believes that ... Australians should be accepting the same wages as is paid in similar Industries overseas

Is that a realistic expectation?

Should Australian textile workers ( if there are any) receive the same wages as those in the back alleys of Mumbai?

Should Australian hospitality workers get paid identically to their Asian counterparts ... around $4 - $5 an hour?

Consider the situation if Australia followed through with this idea ...


Income .... reduced significantly
Cost of living ... can't see that reducing significantly
Housing costs ... also can't see that reducing significantly
Surplus income .... non existent
Punters rushing to buy Qantas tickets .... non existent


It's a vicious circle that doesn't make sense .... :}

[neville_nobody]

Alan also forgets that Singapore's training budget would have to be at least double that of QF's. They pay pilots to learn to fly put them through PPL/CPL/IR then put them in a Learjet at $5000 an hour, then they start endorsement training in the full motion simulator......meanwhile Jetstar and QF get FREE pilots!!:ugh:

[framer]

Should Australian textile workers ( if there are any) receive the same wages as those in the back alleys of Mumbai?


I think the words in brackets above are quite telling. The market for textile workers became a global one, Australia can't compete against Mumbai in that area, therefore they don't.(small specialist operations aside).The market for aviation workers has become, or is becoming, global so the question becomes.....can we compete? I'm not passing judgement as to whether it's a good thing or not, but that seems to be the case to me. Aviation workers in poor countries will be paid a bit more than they're used to, workers in rich countries like Australia will be paid a bit less, a middle ground will be found on an international level instead of a local one. The supply and demand law will apply globally instead of locally. Like it or not I think thats the reality.
Framer

[Wally Mk2]

Guys the likes of AJ I don't think have any idea what they are doing. Don't forget these CEO's aren't in the same 'boat' as us worker drones they have money enuf to ride out any change in the global way of thinking & as such are just feathering their own nest to survive in the mess they leave behind in that nest.
Our biggest trouble is we have a weak Govt. who are slowing destroying what was once a great country. Now there in lies the real problem, aviation is just a small part of it.


Wmk2

[whatdouknow]

good one Wally Mk2... but perhaps there is a good chance that those that make the laws are listening, watching and growing tired of the coporate greed...

hopefully they will and can do something before it is too late, that or AIrcraft manufacturers make airbags in the backs of the PAX seats...

[hewlett]

Already done,only they are in the seat belt in some locations of new gen aircraft eg738.

[whatdouknow]

perhaps they need one on the Radome too... to stop the big hole in the ground!!

[TBM-Legend]

I trust that all QF pilots only drive Australian made cars, drink only Oz wine and beer, take their holidays only in Australia to be consistent with their position...:ok:

[ACT Crusader]

I trust that all QF pilots only drive Australian made cars, drink only Oz wine and beer, take their holidays only in Australia to be consistent with their position...

Come TBM everyone around the world knows QF pilots spend their hard earned driving the latest Mercs, Audis and Beamers, drink Dom P, and leisure on the French Riviera.... :rolleyes:

[TBM-Legend]

Come TBM everyone around the world knows QF pilots spend their hard earned driving the latest Mercs, Audis and Beamers, drink Dom P, and leisure on the French Riviera....


indeed but only if the company pays for themmmm:{

[schlong hauler]

TBM tosser, we pay bucket loads of personal tax in Australia and I drive an Aussie built car. What do you drive on the executive lease plan. A Hyundai?

Word is that Ms Worth has instructed ground staff to blame all delays on industrial action due to the pilots and engineers PIA. My actions and those of many of my fellow pilots protects the schedule. Bloody clowns.

[DutchRoll]

I trust that all QF pilots only drive Australian made cars, drink only Oz wine and beer, take their holidays only in Australia to be consistent with their position...
Perhaps the silliest thing about the above statement is the imposition of a type of trivial "unilateral" logic, ie, if you are concerned for Australian jobs then you must only ever holiday in Australia, only ever buy an Australian car, etc. It's as if somehow by daring to actually venture outside our shores on a holiday, you are by default expressing contempt for aussie jobs or aussie industry, which of course is just sheer tripe.

I'm deeply concerned for our jobs, and I try to "buy Australian" if I can. But sometimes I can't, or the Australian product simply doesn't suit my needs, or any of a hundred other possible reasons. It's something you have to deal with and it doesn't negate the value of any other position you hold on "offshoring" an entire Australian industry. So enough of this argument, eh? You're at least the second person to make it on this forum, and it's still equally ridiculous as the first time.

[peuce]

If we only holidayed in Australia ... QANTAS wouldn't have a business at all.

[KRUSTY 34]

Not only Bloody clowns schlong hauler, but Bloody Dishonest Clowns as well!

[apache]

It's what AJ DOESN'T say that is most compelling:
the carrier's costs are 25% above its competitors such as Singapore Airlines

Singapore airlines (and others like Cathay, Emirates, Malaysian, ANZ, American, United, Delta, Virgin Australia,Air France,BA)operates an ever increasing fleet of MODERN and FUEL EFFICIENT B777's. The 777 uses 30% less fuel than a 747-400 over the same distance. Because they are newer, they also have LOWER maintenance costs, and have BETTER in flight comforts for the passengers.
As they are also SMALLER, the crew will get paid less $$$$... but still inline with the formula that AIPA and QF have agreed upon for the last 40 odd years.
Did he also mention that he, AJ, gets paid SIGNIFICANTLY above what the other CEO's of these airlines get paid? and not just him, his whole executive team.

Why do these execs focus on cutting the cost which is 30% of the total cost, and not focus on the cost which is 70% of the cost?
When he mentions "Labour" .... he includes the management team and its bonuses. IF you were to take pilots wages as a TOTAL cost of running the airline, you would find that it is probably only 5% of the total cost.

I am NOT in management, and never have been, but even I know that to make money, you have to spend money.

[ACT Crusader]

Today's AIPA Media Release




‘Proud of our airline’: Qantas pilot in-flight announcements commence

Qantas pilots have today commenced brief and positive in-flight announcements as part of their campaign for a Qantas flight/Qantas pilot clause in their new agreement.
Although each pilot will personalise the message to some extent, the approximately 25 second announcement will be roughly as follows:

Ladies and gentlemen, this is (insert rank and name), together with (all participating crew) may I briefly have your attention.
On behalf of all Qantas pilots we would like to thank you for choosing to fly with Qantas. We are proud of our profession and our airline and trust you will support us in keeping Qantas pilots in Qantas aircraft and ensuring our great iconic airline remains uniquely Australian.
For more information and to register your support, please make your next destination qantaspilots.com.au.
Thank you.

Australian and International Pilots Association Vice President Richard Woodward, said the aim was to make passengers aware of why Qantas pilots are engaged in a dispute with management for the first time 45 years.

"The aim of the announcement is not to argue any point to passengers, it is to gently remind them that Qantas pilots are currently fighting to stay in the cockpit of Qantas flights,

"If they wish to find out more or support our campaign then they can visit our website, qantaspilots.com.au," Captain Woodward said.
"We’re not trying to ram any particular point home here, because when Qantas passengers find out what management is trying to do they typically decide for themselves that it is out of step with what they want from their airline."

"Quite simply, Qantas passengers do not want to see their Australian Qantas pilots replaced on Qantas flights with outsourced alternatives working to Asian conditions and standards.

"We hope that this action spreads awareness of what management is up to and puts pressure on them to reconsider."



Out of interest, is this brief message being used as a substitute for any other routine announcement made by pilots?

[airtags]

was told that the CC were directed at their briefing not to acknowledge or comment or respond to any questions/statements by pax in connection with the announcement.

Understand that they were told to say
"I'm sorry I don't know anything"

I wonder what the CC & their Union feels about Q making them seem like brainless muffin sellers?

Bit sad eh

AT

[nitpicker330]

AIPA and ALAEA people please listen.

You are not getting your message out to the great un washed. All I hear on the news is from that silly woman "Qantas Pilots want all JQ and QF Pilots paid the same, this not sustainable, airfares would rise,people will lose jobs and we will shut down ops blah blah etc etc……."

No word is heard from the Unions refuting this claim or giving out real data proving this is all BS.

You are not being heard, QF management are getting all the sound bites.

For goodness sake STEP IT UP.

[SpannerTwister]

NP...I agree !!

Apart from Ben Sandilands and Crikey! no-one else wants to listen to us .......

AJ.......
"Hi, I'm AJ and I want to spend a zillion dollars advertising my product with your media outlet, but I'm not comfortable spending that amount of money at a time when my company might be receiving negative reports in your media".

Media Editor....
"Hi, I'm the editor, and as a fiercely independent media outlet we publish everything WE CONSIDER to be "news-worthy". Let me give you an example Mr J....If the CEO of one of Australia's biggest companies says something, we would consider that news-worthy and publish it. On the other hand, Australia has hundreds of unions with thousands of union-officials, releasing tens-of-thousands of media releases, we cannot possibly publish all of those media releases, and even if we did, I cannot possibly envisage how they would be important enough to be in the first 20 pages (10 minutes) of our papers (shows)...nudge-nudge-wink-wink.........."

ST

[piston broke again]

I agree, step it up.
Even on channel 10 news this morning, their intro was "Qantas pilots will be interrupting passengers entertainment to make PA's" and "Qantas management are 'disppointed' over this action by pilots." Where are the pilot reps??

[DutchRoll]

I share many of the frustrations here, but I think you have to be a little circumspect.

The media are just regurgitating the garbage a very well resourced QF media relations department spin to them. They don't see it as their job to do a forensic investigation of the facts anymore (those good ol' days are long gone, for the most part).

The only people who will really care about being "interrupted" during their entertainment will be passengers. Those same passengers will be pleasantly surprised when the PA is made, but it doesn't actually say anything hugely controversial or interrupt anything, least of all their entertainment. Those same passengers then go on to being a bit miffed at Qantas for lying to them, and will likely tell their friends about it too. Once a lie or two is exposed, they get to the point where they don't believe anything Alan Joyce or Olivia Wirth spin to them anymore.

This is where Qantas, in feeding crap to the media, can come unglued. Sure, it's only a personal opinion, but I don't think Qantas are as far ahead in the PR game as people like to think they are (or at least, not for long).

As far as the cabin crew go, I wouldn't expect too many problems. If there is one thing which can unite tech and cabin crew, it is a seething distrust of Joyce and management cronies (yeah, you know who you are, don't you? :suspect:).

[Artificial Horizon]

That PA is perhaps the 'weakest' from of industrial action I have every heard of. What is the next plan, I am not overly familiar with Australian Employment Law, does further action require another ballot??

Passengers are just going to either ignore such a PA or complain about being disturbed by it. I can almost guarantee that the majority of the population don't give a sh*t about Qantas Pilot for Qantas Aircraft, they just want the cheapest fare. The same as we all want the cheapest goods when we shop around. The best way to spark a good public interest in whats going on is to park up a few aircraft.

[unionist1974]

Nice enough message by the crew , I can't imagine anyone getting too upset with it . But , how does it further the cause ? make you seem nice guys ? Yes , convince QF management to back off ? I don't think so.
Guys , the clock is ticking if you don't want to join the guys who worked in the Engine Shop , on the outside looking in , then step up and get fair dinkum .

[Keg]

This is a marathon, not a sprint. There is an image to be crafted here. the PAs are the first step in that. No need to go all '89 right from the start! :ugh: Personally I'm quite pleased at the strategy. It's conservative, it keeps our options open and it's doing our best to keep the passengers on side in the short term.

... does further action require another ballot??

No. As long as everything we've previously voted on is 'enacted' within a month of the vote being proclaimed, no further vote is required. There will be a couple of pilots engaging in limited stop works so that we have those options up our sleeves for all pilots if things haven't progressed in the next couple of months.

Passengers are just going to either ignore such a PA or complain about being disturbed by it.

Perhaps. It's not that different from some of the PAs that some of us have been making over the last couple of years anyway. Apart from the web site reference it's not that different to any other announcement. If they ignore it then so be it. If they complain about it they can do that to my face at the door as they get off. There will be some who pay attention and many who support us.

I can almost guarantee that the majority of the population don't give a sh*t about Qantas Pilot for Qantas Aircraft....

The research that has been conducted over the last 6 months or so would suggest otherwise. It actually rates quite highly- somewhere north of 75% if I recall correctly.

[Artificial Horizon]

Thanks for the informative reply KEG :ok:

[virginexcess]

I can almost guarantee that the majority of the population don't give a sh*t about Qantas Pilot for Qantas Aircraft, they just want the cheapest fare.

I don't work for Qantas, but i can almost guarantee that you are wrong with this statement. If they just wanted the cheapest fare they probably wouldn't be flying with Qantas. Qantas passengers are probably there for exactly the reason you're fighting for, so they will most likely be the most sympathetic of the travelling public, and whats more, they are the ones that are capable of sending the message to management through their choice of airline.

I was speaking to a doctor last week who knew naff all about flying but said that safety was high on his list of important factors that influence his decisions. He flew Qantas when he could.

[SpannerTwister]

was told that the CC were directed at their briefing not to acknowledge or comment or respond to any questions/statements by pax in connection with the announcement.

Understand that they were told to say
"I'm sorry I don't know anything" ......

I believe if that's the case, they should do exactly as management tell them !

Pax to FA "What's this message from the Captain mean / all about ?"

FA to Pax "I've been told to say that I don't know anything about it"

Subtle, But very direct :ok: :ok:

ST

[TIMA9X]

BhQq1pCDeq0


I believe the message is low key and will be acceptable to the flying public considering the implications of the word "unorthorised " fed to the press by Q, still comes over as positive.

[OneDotLow]

Passengers are just going to either ignore such a PA or complain about being disturbed by it.

Only one example, and by no means definitive, but the applause heard in the main cabin of a 767 today would suggest otherwise.

Regards.

[Jetsbest]

According to QF spin:
- these PAs may affect flight safety,

and yet there were no safety implications when

- pilots and ground staff were directed to make PAs for QF's industrial agenda to the effect that any delay was caused by engineers during their last dispute, or
- there were 'absolutely no safety issues' when the 744 engine failed out of Joh'burg last week.

I'm relieved that QF spokespeople are so balanced. :rolleyes:

[stubby jumbo]

Well....it had to happen.

A CSM has been stood down and paxed home for making a follow up PA-supporting the Captains Aug 24... PA.

Apparently some Platinum FF "numb nut" recorded the PA on his i-phone and beamed it back to HQ.

The decree from the bunker was swift.

BOOT ! :hmm:

Seems to me ....with 4 weeks to go-they are circling the wagons.

[Mstr Caution]

Be careful out there.............

Ensure strict compliance with the wording of the PA with nil variation.

Ensure not broadcast during sterile cockpit procedures as it it not a safety related broadcast.

Ensure broadcast at such a time that the pushback is not delayed as a result of the PA.

Whether duty paxing or placed on specific flights, they are listening !

MC

[SMOC]

Iterating to see how India protects Air India.

Indian superjumbo ban hurts Emirates (http://www.arabianbusiness.com/indian-superjumbo-ban-hurts-emirates-a380-growth-411384.html)

[KABOY]

The PA campaign is an industrial tactic sailing close to the wind.

Having a megaphone and spruiking your message in a public place is one thing, but spreading your message to a captive audience will inevitably lead to problems.

Qantas will be scrutinising your every move, they might even manage to have your peers working against you next through actions such as these.

[engine out]

Provided you follow the rules there is nothing the company can do. It is approved by fair work australia.

As to the sky news scroll bar yesterday. The PA's arent unathourised, they have been authorised by the union under fair work australia.

[peuce]

According to QF spin:
- these PAs may affect flight safety,

and yet there were no safety implications when

- pilots and ground staff were directed to make PAs for QF's industrial agenda to the effect that any delay was caused by engineers during their last dispute, or
- there were 'absolutely no safety issues' when the 744 engine failed out of Joh'burg last week.

It would be interesting to watch a video that compares the Qantas PR announcements compared to each other .... as in above. I would be showing shots of mangled engine cowling with "her" voiceover of "there was never any safety issue" ...

[hotnhigh]

Having a megaphone and spruiking your message in a public place is one thing, but spreading your message to a captive audience will inevitably lead to problems.


You are right Kaboy. The spontaneous applause that broke out in the cabin yesterday in support of what was being said during the PAs would make any ceo choke on his lunch. Problems indeed.

[airtags]

Actually the three ring circus (AJ, Olivia & Luke) have finally made a truthful statement.
The PA's WILL affect safety -

Firstly by raising punter awareness of the shabby slashing of safety standards by Joyce the $afety fir$t spin is shown for what it is and the backlash will help to stop further safety cutbacks

and best of all:

reducing the safety of the Orange Emperor's future bonuses

AT

Practice those PA's - make em loud, clear and emphasise the key words
Stand at the door and farewell the pax with the CC - Q has gagged the CC but it would be bad manners for a Capt & FO not to answer pax questions ......

[BigGun]

Maybe the Engineers, Pilots and CC should gand up and start making VA tapes during the flights instead of the DVT videos ;)

Im sure we can get some pictures mixed into the airshow as well on the radva.

[rodchucker]

Spontaneous applause is useless if it doesn't convert to something else either by annoying Execs, making Board nervous or actually supporting the staff. That Plat FF may or may not have been a company plant but surely they have plans in place when the actions have all been indicated and broadcast widely.

Wouldn't surprise if eventually we have a tit for tat going on, some going to the Company and some to the media as this game escalates. I think it will be more peaceful travelling on trains.

Seems AIPA are content to play a cautious game, so I hope they know what they are doing and have the goods to back it up.

CSM losing his job just plays into the Rats hands in my view. They merely start 24 Aug with one strike and no payout.

Be careful out there and play it safe and by the rules.

[DutchRoll]

From one of our QF captains who just made the PA (apologies to him for lifting this off the in-house website, but I'm sure he understands):

"cheers and applause from passengers"
"cabin crew positive and supportive"
"during disembarkation passengers poking heads through door offering strong and enthusiastic support"

I would also relay the thoughts of the cabin crew regarding the company directive to "submit a report on any announcements from the flight deck which are not normal", but I don't want to get them into trouble!

.....and so it all starts to unravel for Olivia, Alan, and the management cronies.

[standard unit]

As a CC member I can confirm that there would be less than a handful of [sycophantic toadies] colleagues who wouldn't be in support of both the pilot's and engineer's current industrial campaign.

It beggars belief that someone would be so stupid as to say so via the PA though.......:ugh:

Shooting fish in a barrel for the company.

[packrat]

A message posted on RCIS late yesterday “asks” crew to report non-standards PAs to Qantas Management.
Negotiations between Qantas and AIPA for a new EBA commenced in August last year, with 21 meetings held to date. In May, AIPA conducted a ballot of its membership to take protected industrial action against Qantas. The ballot includes the right of AIPA to direct its members to make AIPA authorised passenger announcements.
The FAAA International Division was initially appalled that cabin crew would be involved in dobbing on potential industrial action involving another union – AIPA – over a dispute that currently does not involve cabin crew, but involves the very future of their employer. The action of potentially making PAs informing the travelling public of a dispute between AIPA and Qantas is action sanctioned as protected industrial action by Fair Work Australia. Additionally, it is protected industrial action that Qantas has been on notice about for weeks and has been fully endorsed by a vote of the AIPA membership. 89% of eligible pilots participated in the ballot and 94% of those voted in favour of taking protected industrial action against Qantas.
This morning we asked senior cabin crew management to explain the RCIS message. The response is that cabin crew management have only issued the message to aid customer service recovery; this message has not been issued to “dob” in PAs supporting AIPA’s campaign of protected industrial action. Cabin crew management have stated that no action will be taken against a CSM who does not report a non-standard PA. However, if there is an issue regarding customer recovery that comes to the attention of cabin crew management from a non-standard PA, that CSM will need to explain why the issue was not reported at the time.
We applaud the initiative of AIPA management to use novel industrial action such as non-standard PAs as this measure does not affect the operating of Qantas services and has little impact on our membership.
We take this opportunity to remind crew that strong penalties can be issued against unions who support the campaigns of other unions bargaining with the same or a different employer. These sanctions, known as secondary boycotts, are still current under the Fair Work Act regime.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

This is an EBA negotiation, not an episode of Glee, who cares about the tit for tat with the cronies.

The relevant version of the EBA will either be voted up or not voted up, that will be the ultimate tell.

Pilots and AIPA stand strong, we're pilots not PR consultants, we are trusted by our passengers to fly aeroplanes not lie to the public.

[V-Jet]

'aid customer recovery' - as in when the appalling Perry food is wheeled out (at a Perry cost to QF of $1.3m pa because GD's wife 'liked' eating at Rockpool) or the god awful 744 IFE fails again because everyone onboard has the audacity to want to watch what they want - and QF management blame Rockwell despite bein told point blank it would never work as it was only designed for a 767....

or.... or ..... or....

There are ever increasing numbers of villages missing their idiots watching the ongoing QF management train wreck.

Or, more tragically, it is slowly dawning on me that my village is missing its idiot because I am NOT in Qf management.

To my own ongoing detriment I would like to see Qf be successful into the next millennia. Unlike anyone who is in management I SACRIFICE for the common good - and have done for almost 30 years.

Obviously the idiot is me.

Little green men in skirts were shown short shrift in recent european history.

I live in hope - Vive le Resistance!...

[V-Jet]

Very interestingly I note (thanks packrat) ALL previous CIS log in screen info has been removed. For the uninitiated (hopefully an on the ball journo?) these messages are published for weeks and weeks - you scroll down to where you last viewed to get 'important' info.

For the first time I can remember there is but one lonely message on the vitally important upcoming Pathfinders Lottery - run by Qf aircrew (C-mainly&T) for the benefit of the Royal Institute for deaf and blind children's society. Not a single sentence on the even more vital DAMP courses or Flight Crew Briefings - read management paralytic pissups (ever been berated for nonperformance as a group (mainline) and later had the manager in question throw up on your shoes?) or upcoming engagement survey notifications...

Yes I am angry because YOU are incompetent beyond your understanding. I know how to run companies, YOU do not.

[somewhereat1l]

The crew Intranet still has this non sense on it:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/29089753/200711_industrial_action.pdf

[Stalins ugly Brother]

This morning we asked senior cabin crew management to explain the RCIS message. The response is that cabin crew management have only issued the message to aid customer service recovery; this message has not been issued to “dob” in PAs supporting AIPA’s campaign of protected industrial action. Cabin crew management have stated that no action will be taken against a CSM who does not report a non-standard PA. However, if there is an issue regarding customer recovery that comes to the attention of cabin crew management from a non-standard PA, that CSM will need to explain why the issue was not reported at the time.

Easy fix, stand down all the cabin crew as they board the aircraft, then it won't put them in an uncomfortable position of having to "dob" in the tech crew.
The Captain ultimately has to feel he has the support and trust of his operating crew, knowing the cabin crew have been informed by their bosses to "dob' him/her in (for making a sanctioned PA's under FWA) doesn't provide that trust and is potentially a risk to safety. What a great culture this airline has bred! :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Cargo744]

Guys, get a mouthpiece that has some sort of credibility. At the moment you have absolutley nothing as far as the public is concerned. QF management (miss) are killing you. Mr Safe did a good job with his interview and this should be furthered. Distance yourselves from the Engineers Union and follow your own agenda. Good luck

[ejectx3]

What part of "we are not asking for a payrise but just to keep Qantas from offshoring our jobs" have you missed?

The pay component is less than CPI.

And the applause given on board since the PA's have been made may prove you wrong...

[Bypass ratio]

Your a busy little poster today Halfpast3bus.....Im struggling to keep up with you! But I do agree on what you've said. I think it's called the Tall Poppy Syndrome. Very alive & well in OZ & NZ.
Unfortunately for QF, the damage has already been done. Too little too late. AIPA is a joke.....:ugh:

[600ft-lb]

The various Pilot unions around the world keep trying to get public backing for the push for better conditions.

By posting in this forum you obviously mean the AIPA and Qantas.

This is a good example of how someone falls for a one liner from Qantas and believes it without critical analysis of anything.

THE CLAIM IS ABOUT AUSTRALIAN BASED QANTAS PILOTS FLYING QANTAS AIRCRAFT. The pay claim is 2.5%

You want 180K rather than 150K, while most of your Pax get 60K. :ugh: Wake Up. They're not interested. They hate you....http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

QF32, I'm sure the pax hated Captain Crespigny. I'm sure they really thought he wasn't worth any more then joe labourer hauling bricks around a building site.

[Tankengine]

Bypass, please take your chip to management, not the pilots.:=
How is your EK union going?:hmm:

[Bypass ratio]

Tankengine, I do apologise for being so blunt & I'm sorry if I've pinched a nerve, but you have to agree that this showdown with management started 10 years ago right? Sunstate, Southern, Eastern, Impulse, Jetstar, Cobham, jetconnect, QF Domestic, QF International? I mean lets be realistic here. Yes I used to work for a QF Regional so I know what its like to be treated by your union.
I have no union in EK so, I keep my head down & my options open. I'm 36 years old & been flying since I was 16. I have 11000 hours & not once has a Union done anything for me. I even had to leave my home country to pursue a career where my skills are rewarded.

[Tankengine]

No worries, good to see people getting on in life [Cadel Evans just won yellow jersey!]:D

I have never needed either union I have been in for anything major.:)
Small things have helped, and they have set up fine T&Cs, now is a fight for life in the airline itself.
I too started at 16, I am 47 with nearly 19000 hours and wish to stay in my own country!:ok:

[Ultergra]

Haha!

Well, there really are some tosse.. I mean, topic starters in this world.

Guys really? Are you stuck in the sand or living in a hole on level 60 in some 1970's retro apartment in HK and cant get out?

Move on dudes!

And p.s. Some people really are getting on and enjoying life, just like Cadel, go son!

[PPRuNeUser0198]

I have a question - if the only "demand" from the pilot union is to not off-shore pilot positions, why is Qantas stating other demands from the group (which Qantas cannot afford) including free travel or use of crew rest, higher priority codes, Qantas Club access etc as other demands?

If they're not true, why would Qantas publish these as facts? The unions could easily make a fool out of Qantas for making these statements as false - however they're not.

I've asked this question before on here and have been told they're not true - yet I don't see Barry come on in the media to say these are false and misleading claims?

[Tankengine]

T-Vasis,
I am not on committee or part of team.
As far as I know the company has 80+ "asks"
Union has 6-8 "asks"
These are, and have been, negotiated about for some time.
They are all NEGOTIABLE!:ugh:

We have one demand, Qantas pilot/Qantas aircraft [or paid as such]
If the company agrees to this, saving the careers of the young guys then dispute would be over.:rolleyes:

[Keg]

T-VASIS. Why doesn't the union refute them? Because to explain the detail of the request gets bogged down in a minor argument.

Want to know the truth about it?

We want to be able to purchase QF club access at the 'corporate rate'. We currently don't have it. Most won't bother but some will want it. It doesn't 'cost' the company much but it makes a great headline if they're attacking pilots as being greedy. Currently ADF members and Airservices Australia employees have this facility. Funny that no one accuses them of being greedy. Then again, QF offered it to them, they're using it as an industrial tactic against us.

We intend on withdrawing from the current LSL trip provisions (a free trip for the whole family on certain onload/ upgrade priorities in return for two tickets per year. For some crew this is a step back, for others it's a marginal step up. Qantas costed this as two return tickets to LHR in premium economy (and the full commercial rate for that) and decided that was the 'cost' of the ticket. The reality is that most 767 and A330 drivers would use it to take their kids away with them on a trip and neither of those fleets go to LHR. Very rarely would it displace a commercial passenger and given the lead time that we would be required to book, it would never displace a 'known' passenger unless QF chooses to oversell the aeroplane. This 'ask' came about because the security industry consider our family members to be a security risk and we can no longer utilise the jump seats to get the family away/ home. In return, we no longer have access to the LSL provisions and their unload/ upgrade priorities (which themselves have been diminished over the last few years but you get that).

We actually do want a change to unload/ upgrade categories to return the categories to what they were a few years back. These days you have a recent joiner (as recently as 6 months) in a 'middle management' position- not executive management, not the equivalent of a fleet manager, they may have 1-2 subordinates- who gets unloaded and upgraded ahead of Captains with 20 years service. That didn't occur five years ago and the requested changes in category return us to that point. It doesn't 'cost' the company much, it restores something previously held but diminished by the current management, but it makes a great headline for QF when they publicise it.

The crew rest demand was never a 'demand' per se. It's been re-worded and clarified and is now a non-issue.

As previously pointed out, these aren't 'demands'. They're things that we'd like and have put up for negotiation. So far AIPA have expended significant energy reviewing the 68 Qantas claims but precious little time has been spent by Qantas reviewing AIPAs 6-8 claims (can't remember exact number).

So if you reckon you can condense all those intricacies into a 20 second sound bit then knock your socks off. You'll note that Qantas doesn't bother explaining the nuances of it, they just go with the easy distortion/ lie.

Then again, given your trolling ways, not sure why I bother. i'm sure you'll use this as an excuse to yet again slag off at the pilots.

[PPRuNeUser0198]

Keg - I simply want to know the facts. I have asked these questions before and was told that these claims were false. You've now proven them correct albeit with some detail around those claims.

If you can evidence for me where I have "slagged off" the pilots, please do so and I'll happily correct any post. As far as I am aware - I've never condemned the pilot group in anyway. Do I agree with the pilot group across all accounts - absolutely not.

Where I don't, I like to add my opinion to the argument. We all come from different backgrounds and skill/qualifications.

[airtags]

Keg has explained it well and I agree that it is folly to refute minor detail or sidebar issues at the expense of the core issue.

Fundamentally however, the key will be to ensure the PIA does not lapse and that every pilot is prepared to back the solid rational and 'punter-relevant' respones to the Company's Aug 24 proclaimation.

Logic says that apart from a 'PR stunt- in kind' agreement of a minor point or two, there is no propensity for any substantive agreement within the next 30-45 days anyway.

Logic also says that AJ is no fool and the August 24 soiree will be used by Q as tyre lever to belt us into submission. Our task is to make sure we keep the pitch rock solid and ensure that any adverse outcomes from this 're-structure' come with a bucketload of personal risk to the well-being and reputation of Joyce and Co.,

Between now and then nothing is gained by even acknowledging the misleading trite B.S. trotted out by Olivia & Co., ....................
(- actually why would we bother even acknowldging them at all - they have zero operational experience and close to the same when it comes to professional cred.)

T-Vasis if you're looking for details then suggest you call AIPA and provide your bonafides.

AT

PS: As for the QClub being overun with staff - actually it seems there are more Managers and Jetstar pax in there than QF pax these days. :ugh:

[teresa green]

You can blame Bob Hawke for calling pilots "overpaid bus drivers" in THAT year, and it has never been forgotten. A insult to both pilots and bus drivers, he is and was, responsible for the denigration of pilots and bus drivers, both who are responsible for the lives of their passengers, its just one is harder than the other. That saying has gone into folklore sadly, and gets wheeled out when required.

[Keg]

T-VASIS, the Qantas' claims were false. They were completely devoid of context and accuracy. Even in my explanation above I've left out detail that is important- such as the 'free' trip isn't really 'free' (even for the current scheme) as you're still required to pay all taxes and charges. These can amount to MORE than a discounted 'full fare' ticket.

At the end of the day, they certainly weren't the demands Qantas portrayed them to be and so their claims about them is false and incorrect.

PS: As for the QClub being overun with staff - actually it seems there are more Managers and Jetstar pax in there than QF pax these days.

Airtags, you're not wrong there!

[framer]

So if you reckon you can condense all those intricacies into a 20 second sound bit then knock your socks off.
It can't be done. Thats why some of us have been saying for months that you need to drop all 'asks' and just leave one demand.
You need to think about how you will present this drastic action in the media for maximum effect before you do it. How it could best be presented to compare with the 68 Qantas claims .
There is no point in mucking around on this one. Tidy up the loose ends at the next negotiation.

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

I believe there is a trade off for the "free trip" also.
No duty travel in first class, ever, I believe.

So not only is the company telling lies about the trip being "free", they also neglect to mention there is trade off involved also.

T-Vasis, I don't believe you are silly enough to fall for this stuff.
What is your agenda?

Just like your name suggests, your becoming an outdated, and mostly irrelevant tool in Australian Aviation.

[DutchRoll]

I have a question - if the only "demand" from the pilot union is to not off-shore pilot positions, why is Qantas stating other demands from the group (which Qantas cannot afford) including free travel or use of crew rest, higher priority codes, Qantas Club access etc as other demands?

Qantas is alleging they can't afford them, even though it has consistently refused to show its costing workings to the pilot negotiating team. Qantas also refuses to acknowledge the fact that efficiency and other tradeoffs have been offered. Why do they act this way? Well, perhaps you should reflect on why they're doing it. I can think of a number of possible reasons, none of which involves them actually negotiating in good faith.

If they're not true, why would Qantas publish these as facts?
Well, you tell me. Why would Olivia Wirth go on TV and bluntly state that Qantas is still recruiting pilots (false)? Why would she issue a media release stating we are demanding $200,000 PA each (false)? Why would she state on TV that we're demanding free trips for all our friends and relatives (false). Why would she state in a radio interview that she's not sure whether Qantas has left-handed screwdrivers for the two engineers who were going to use only their left hands in maintenance work (because she's a blithering idiot)?

The unions could easily make a fool out of Qantas for making these statements as false - however they're not.
I've asked this question before on here and have been told they're not true - yet I don't see Barry come on in the media to say these are false and misleading claims?

AIPA have published numerous media releases stating these claims are false. Barry Jackson has been interviewed on TV and stated these claims are false. So has Richard Woodward.

Sh*t sometimes sticks, at least for a while, and Qantas are flooding the media with it. Don't be under the illusion that Qantas corporate PR has any budget restrictions during this dispute.

[Jack Ranga]

Logic also says that AJ is no fool and the August 24 soiree will be used by Q as tyre lever to belt us into submission


I thought every single one of you would see this date for what it is. It is a deliberate tactic to have every one of you quaking in your boots. Serious management that were interested in negotiation would not use an inflammatory tactic like this.

Go hard.

I think you will find there are more people backing you than not. When PIA starts and Australians are bombarded with the midgets continual f@#king whinge in that irritating, whining, uneducated accent they will see the forest for the trees.

[TIMA9X]

this date for what it is. It is a deliberate tactic to have every one of you quaking in your boots. Serious management that were interested in negotiation would not use an inflammatory tactic like this.I agree, and my suspicion is Q management today are "quaking" in their boots, as the "unorthorised" PAs are going down a treat with the punters by all reports. My other half returned from Tulla with the news that all the pax on the flight, after hearing the PA cheered and clapped as well in support! Whoever it was sitting beside her also commented, "I was against this industrial action by the pilots until I boarded the flight, I changed my mind after realising that it was the management who created the mess Qantas was in, not the pilots."

I think you will find there are more people backing you than not.Yes, I feel the same about this as well. It would be great if someone could record a video with the punters showing support, it would be priceless. This is what the management are fearing the most.

Keep up the good work guys.:ok:

[ejectx3]

What is the text of the PA can it be posted here?

[hotnhigh]

Thanks Jack.

[TIMA9X]

What is the text of the PA can it be posted here?Here it is, from another thread,
From a AIPA press release - Although each pilot will personalise the message to some extent, the approximately 25 second announcement will be roughly as follows: ladies and gentlemen, this is (insert rank and name), together with (all participating crew) may I briefly have your attention.
On behalf of all Qantas pilots we would like to thank you for choosing to fly with Qantas. We are proud of our profession and our airline and trust you will support us in keeping Qantas pilots in Qantas aircraft and ensuring our great iconic airline remains uniquely Australian.
For more information and to register your support, please make your next destination qantaspilots.com.au.
Thank you.

[Mstr Caution]

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/458287-us-airways-captain-escorted-aircraft.html

In a letter to employees on Friday, Robert Isom, chief operating officer, wrote that "USAPA has embarked upon a smear campaign that in reality is all about contract negotiations, not safety.

Interesting thread, do airline CEO's have a "playbook" of standard quotes?

[ejectx3]

thankyou for posting

[teresa green]

Great blast from the head of the Transport Union tonight on Agenda, as he stuck it right up Clifford. Good lad that.:D