"Exploiting Asian Markets" - Irish Suicide.

[Sunfish]

The CEO of Qantas has apparently said words to the effect that Qantas is going to "Exploit rapidly growing Asian markets."

I am so incensed by the lunacy of The Qantas Board and Management that I will go on record now and say that there is not a snowballs chance in hell that Qantas is going to: "Exploit rapidly growing Asian markets."

That is an Asian market and it is going to be exploited by Asians for Asians and to the benefit of Asian shareholders.

The only "impact" that Qantas is going to make on that market is a small stain on an Asian mattress someplace where Qantas shareholders cried themselves to sleep after losing their entire capital on an unprofitable failed Asian joint venture.

Pardon my French, but FFS, the history of Western investment in "Asian Markets" is a ******* cemetery of failed business ventures where the West has been efficiently skinned by their erstwhile Asian partners. Jetstars adventures in Vietnam should have been an absolute warning to them.

It takes what are called "Old China Hands" at least Thirty years of trading experience to engage profitably with China and the East, and this little Irish bowel movement thinks he can just walk in and make off with some profits?

Here is what is going to happen to you Alan;

1) You are going to be encouraged by your Asian partners to invest every bit of spare cash you have, or you can borrow, in your Asian operations.

2) You are going to be encouraged to invest your management time in your Asian operations to the exclusion of everything else.

3) You will be encouraged to move as much of your operations and employees to Asia as is physically possible.

4) In support of this strategy, you will be wined and dined by everyone from the Asian Government and business community from the top down. The continuous mantra being thrown in your direction will be "huge Asian markets."

5) At some point a few years from now, a stock market analyst will sound a warning that Qantas is now balls deep in Asia and that any downturn or disturbance in Asian markets will severely impact not just the Qantas International markets, but the Qantas Domestic market, which by then will have been "rearranged" to have synergies with the new you beaut Qantasia International (read deep discounts for Asian travelers plus Asian maintenance and crews, etc.).

6) The warnings won't be heeded. Remaining institutional investors who were wondering exactly what the Qantas sustainable competitive advantage in Asia really was will quietly exit. Qantas will start borrowing from the banks, who are always too stupid to see where companies are heading.

7) Within a year the cupboard is bare. Qantas is in hock to its eye teeth and still waiting for profits to be generated by the "huge Asian Markets". The revenue will be there, its just that everyone (the Asian partner, airports, lessors, maintenance organisations, manufacturers, finance houses, fuel suppliers, catering, ATC, etc. etc) seems to be making a dollar or two of profit except Qantas. Funny that.

8) Getting desperate for cash, Qantas tries to rearrange its finances and perhaps repatriate some funds to Australia.... and runs smack into a concrete wall of uncompromising Asian Governments, regulators, financial institutions and a less than helpful but"Oh so sorry" Asian "Partner".

Perhaps you like to sell your business? We make you velly good offer?

The Qantas Sale Act will be no help because there is nothing left to sell.

That is what is going to happen to Qantas Alan. You have absolutely no experience whatsoever in operating in Asian markets and neither has Qantas apart from flying in, filling up and departing, yet you think that running an LCC operation in a bog in Ireland is suitable experience for operating to the shores of the Middle Kingdom?

Take the old Asian custom of "gifts" also know in vulgar terms as kickbacks. How are you going to deal with the necessity of those Alan? Australian law prohibits them, but I guess that the Qantas auditors and your own "robust internal processes" will keep you safe.

Well, except that they didn't, did they?

Qantas one of 11 airlines fined $1.1 billion for rigging cargo prices | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/qantas-one-of-11-airlines-fined-11-billion-for-colluding-on-cargo-pricing/story-e6frg6nf-1225950672317)

The fine comes three years after Qantas was fined $40 million for price-fixing in the North American air cargo market.

In 2008, Qantas also agreed to pay a fine of $20 million under a deal reached with the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission over the European price-fixing cartel.

Never mind Alan, the Board knows how to deal with the thorny problem of Asian business customs. They will keep you safe. Leigh Clifford comes from Rio Tinto. They know all about Chinese corruption don't they?

Rio Tinto mops up after China bribery mess | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/rio-tinto-mops-up-after-china-bribery-mess/story-e6frg8zx-1225854714207).


So how are you going to do the "exploiting" Alan? Tell us about the mass of trained Qantas managers who know instinctively what to do when there appear to be employees on the payroll that have never been seen; when invoices appear that cannot be reconciled. What happens when you discover that the security guards on your stores and property exist to prevent you from accessing them after hours when the real business is being conducted? Do you understand that you had better give your Chinese managers about Ten percent of the shareholding lest they be enticed away to your loss? Have you ever had to write on a Six million dollar invoice "Please do not ask for credit as refusal often offends", Alan? Alan? Tell us about your vast experience of the orient! Do you like Chinese food? Is that it?

Somebody should tell this bog Irish idiot that he is not doing business with another Belgium or Holland. He knows nothing about the East - where business is played by rather different rules. Just ask Cathay and Swire, they have only been in the game for what? Two hundred years? ..And you are going to encroach on their territory?

It is perfectly clear who is going to do the "exploiting" in this transaction, and it won't be Qantas. You come to this market with zero expertise, and you are too stupid to understand that you have no understanding of what is required.

...and finally. The Board and management of Qantas keep harping about generating an "acceptable" return on Capital invested in the international business.......

Asia is the home of the concept of "Patient Capital"; exactly how does the long term Asian time horizon sit with your need to generate "Acceptable Returns" every year?

I can tell you right now that it doesn't. Wait till your business partner says: "Yes Alan, I know we are making a loss now, but in Ten years time!"

[mmciau]

Sunfish,

Interesting observation of the situation Qantas may find itself in if it pursues such a plan.


Mike

[Nudlaug]

Where was the "Like" button again on this forum???

:D:D:D

[Taildragger67]

Sunny,

:ok: and once again :ok:.

Just read a week's worth of the Straits Times and you don't have to be Einstein to see which way things flow in parts to Australia's north.

There also appears to be the risk of repeating the time-honoured schoolboy error of treating 'Asia' as a homogeneous unit. It ain't. Don't think you can go to Asia and treat everyone the same. You'll end up p!ssing all of them off and then, they will come together (for a while) to defeat the common enemy before getting back to business (with each other) as usual.

[AlphaLord]

If a new Qantas Premium Airline is to base itself in Singapore it will go head to head with SingAir.Surely they will want a trade off ?
Through rights to the USA perhaps?
This strategy has all the earmarks of a management who are clueless

[Angle of Attack]

Hey Sunfish,
You should email that to him, :ok:

[Ka.Boom]

Maybe SingAir and Qantas are getting in the sack together?
Which one will be the train and which will be the tunnel?

[UPPERLOBE]

Singapore? I must have missed something, I thought it was Malaysian they were smooching up to. :confused:

[sisemen]

this little Irish bowel movement :ok::ok: ................

[fearcampaign]

Sunfish,

Gold:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

[gobbledock]

With no disrespect to my Asian affiliates, the only way to conduct a successful aviation model is to supply cash, bags of it, to 'get the job done'. A tried and tested method of business that does work quite well.
But how does that model of business fit in with QF's core policies and transparent business practises ? Most likely rather well when you examine some of the 'mischief' that has surrounded a number of QF's business practises in recent years.
But in reality all that QF and AJ are doing currently is 'poking the ants nest'. Annoy the ants long enough and they will swarm, execute and devour. There is a good reason why China, Singapore other and Asian countries have a healthy balance sheet while the western world crumbles.

Alan, you are out of your league and it is time to go back to playing in the little kids sandpit. Quit while you are ahead.

[Flogged Horse]

I hope the Journo's read this....pure gold Sunfish. As an outsider can you please tell me how the Onestar Asia business is traveling? Do you think the "Qantas" asian push will be 100% driven by Onestar expansion? I'm just curious as someone who is outside the loop but keenly watching.

FH

[Sunfish]

FH, I'm an outsider too, it's just that my school fees were paid by trading in Asia for many, many years, my Dad started learning that game in 1935.

[ciport]

"LIBM"
Little Irish Bowel Movement
Perfect description
:D:D:D

[mohikan]

Sunfish.

It's possible AJ knows all this. Remember the real agenda is to get away from the nasty high cost Australian labour and access el-cheapo Indians, Paki's, Chinese ect ect.

At the end of the day Singapore is hub to and from Australia. If Qantas international is 'based' there, but doing something like its existing flying program then in reality it will not be any further in the asian market then as it is now.

[airtags]

taildragger - 100% correct:

there are more factions in Asia than the left wing of the ALP at a Greens picnic.

Remember the 'eyes on Asia team' are the same people that showed such outstanding insight at Ansett and other similar not so successful ventures. They are also the same people that demonstrated notable poor judgement that has cost Q millions (eg 330-200 J seating etc etc.,)

AT

[schlong hauler]

Nma
no more alan

[Sunfish]

Mohikan:

At the end of the day Singapore is hub to and from Australia. If Qantas international is 'based' there, but doing something like its existing flying program then in reality it will not be any further in the asian market then as it is now.

You demonstrate perfectly the lack of comprehension of Asia that I am talking about.

Do you honestly believe a Qantas Asian based business will be allowed to make a return to its Australian shareholders? Let alone a return that is "acceptable" to the Boards notional Australian institutional investors, which is probably double or triple what an Asian carrier would consider "acceptable"?

If so, I have a bridge to sell you.

I use the phrase "a return to its Australian shareholders" because those are the operative words that the Board should be considering right now, and if they have not done the necessary due diligence to trace exactly how that will occur then they are already in trouble.

Firstly there is the little matter of earning a profit under the applicable Asian accounting standards.

Then there is the question of taxes in that Asian domicile.

Then there is the question of in what circumstances your partnership agreement allows for the declaration of a shareholders dividend as opposed to retaining the earnings in the business.

Then there is the tax treatment of dividends.

Then there is the little matter of foreign exchange rules and repatriation of funds.


....And you think all that works just like in Australia? Sovereign risk and commercial risk are not trivial issues in Asia, as Qantas and Rio Tinto should already know to their cost.

[Captain Gidday]

And there is also the problem that you only ever own 49% of the business and the transparency around that. For example, in the case of Jetstar Asia, has the 51% owner contributed 51% of the capital needs of the airline so far? From what resources?
Of course he gets 51% of the profits, not the Australian shareholders. A lot of work is being done by the 'A-Team' for 49% of the profit.

[40Deg STH]

Working for a very successful asian carrier and living here and seeing so many very up and coming mainland carriers with huge wealth behind them, AJ is going burn QF. Our national flag carrier will not survive here. Do they have billions to compete with the wealth here? NO. They are just not in a position to survive. QF is an aero club compared to asian carriers who have bottom-less pockets

Sunfish, Good work!!

[mohikan]

Sunfish.

You are right, I didn't consider those points. Perhaps the same way that AJ is not considering them.

Joyce is going to go ahead anyhow. He wants to be seen as 'the big man' that broke the pilots. You can bet there will have been phone calls of encouragement from Dixon and others to him telling him to 'hold his nerve'.

Either way we are stuffed

[KABOY]

Sunfish,

You seem a little asiaphobic about investing in Asia.

You have highlighted two examples of Australian 'individuals' that 'may' have contravened local laws. What you have failed to grasp is that these companies continue to trade in these countries and continue to return profits to their relevant shareholders.

Why don't you pay a little visit to some large multinationals that have invested in Asia and see what they have to say? Ford, GM, Fiat, Citibank, Volkswagen, ANZ, NAB all seem to be comfortable with their positions in Asia. AirAsia has now established two companies, one in Malaysia and the other in Thailand which now covers a large section of Asia. Thailand still has ownership restrictions but Malaysia is quite open to investment, maybe that's where AJ will be parking some airplanes?

In the words of a friend who works with Merrill Lynch in Asia "Asia with all it's faults is too big to ignore."

To finish off with here is a little article I found:

In modern years, multinational companies have accelerated their large investment in China. McDonald’s forlorn has built 52 factories in China. ABB Group established 20 common ventures. Volkswagen AG set up four large seam ventures and one solely-invested enterprise with a compute investment of U.S.$ 2 billion. In addition, Boeing has three large united ventures, and the key components of 3100 Boeing planes now hurried worldwide were made in China. Moreover, with the relocation fever, multinational companies are intensifying their localization stratagem of the “origin in China.”

[Nudlaug]

I would rather work for Garuda. Their rep is terrible, but at least they have a forward looking CEO, with balls and brains, and a plan to improve the airline.
Not gut it into some kind of low cost quasi long haul hedge fund.

Pure GOLD :ok:

[The Green Goblin]

Guys, sunfish is qualified to comment on Asia, he is Asian after all :ok:

[Sunfish]

Kaboy:

You seem a little asiaphobic about investing in Asia.

You have highlighted two examples of Australian 'individuals' that 'may' have contravened local laws. What you have failed to grasp is that these companies continue to trade in these countries and continue to return profits to their relevant shareholders.

Why don't you pay a little visit to some large multinationals that have invested in Asia and see what they have to say? Ford, GM, Fiat, Citibank, Volkswagen, ANZ, NAB all seem to be comfortable with their positions in Asia. AirAsia has now established two companies, one in Malaysia and the other in Thailand which now covers a large section of Asia. Thailand still has ownership restrictions but Malaysia is quite open to investment, maybe that's where AJ will be parking some airplanes?

In the words of a friend who works with Merrill Lynch in Asia "Asia with all it's faults is too big to ignore."

Kaboy, I'm not Asiaphobic at all. After all Asian trading paid my school fees :) My Dad traded in Asia from 1935 to the mid 1970's. We did very nicely thank you.

What I am on about is the lunacy of waking up one morning and saying; "Hey! Look at all these huge Asian markets! I want to get me some of that today!" This is what Qantas appears to have done.

As you may know, Asian business is about relationships that don't just develop overnight. It takes years of patient cultivation to get to the point where someone might decide they like the idea of doing business with you. I know for a fact that some Chinese companies have waited for overseas reps to make Five straight years of sales visits before they got their first order just to see whether they are "serious" about doing business in Asia. They take a long view and "Face" is also everything.

So how much "face" does Qantas have in Asia? How much "Face" do the members of the Qantas Board and Senior management have? Where is the Qantas commitment to Asia, or are they just another Western company that smells a new market and wants to get rich quick by screwing over Asians?

These are the questions that Asians will be asking about Qantas, and if all they get is Olivia Wirth Bullshyte, they will draw the right conclusions.

The companies who are making money in China have invested decades of their time, let alone capital, in producing something that is mutually beneficial to both parties. I would argue that not only is Qantas incapable of exhibiting that attitude, it has nothing to offer Asia that Asians cannot provide cheaper and better for themselves.

[whatever6719]

Spot on Airborne.
I mean really,what are they thinking. As somebody posted earlier, Asia is sown up. You've got fantastic airlines serving the region and beyond along with the new low-cost arrivals catering to the masses. Why would 'Joe Wong' even contemplate ditching his zealously accrued status with the Asian majors so he can go across to "Qantasia". This new "premium" airline fascinates me. What on earth are they going to call it?? Doesn't the sale act forbid the word Qantas being used on such a venture?? I dont know... It just doesn't make sense on so many levels. I reckon this can't/won't fly.
Bring on 24th of August.
And on that point, it shows the contempt the company has for it's people to make them hang on like this. Who DOES this sort of stuff???
It really beggars belief!!

[Nudlaug]

These are the questions that Asians will be asking about Qantas, and if all they get is Olivia Wirth Bullshyte, they will draw the right conclusions.

The companies who are making money in China have invested decades of their time, let alone capital, in producing something that is mutually beneficial to both parties. I would argue that not only is Qantas incapable of exhibiting that attitude, it has nothing to offer Asia that Asians cannot provide cheaper and better for themselves.

AMEN to that :ok:

[standard unit]

Sunfish's last post speaks volumes but I fear it's all too late for Qantas.

Qf management will ignore this type of common sense and blindly forge ahead because they are, after all, the "smartest guys in the room". :ugh:

[Angle of Attack]

AirborneSoon hit the nail on the head!

What is frustrating is that we can all see it is doomed to failure but we are not even getting paid to know it! Don't worry Alan will get his 11 Million incentive bonus then go to AirNZ. Oh god!

[FFG 02]

Jetstar pan-Asia plan has flights to Beijing (http://www.theage.com.au/business/jetstar-panasia-plan-has-flights-to-beijing-20110712-1hc5f.html)

"JETSTAR is expected to begin flights to Beijing after finally gaining airport landing slots but will have to wait longer before it can fly on to Europe because it lacks the necessary traffic rights.
Jetstar's expansion in Asia comes as speculation grows about the loss-making routes its parent, Qantas, will cut as part of a review of its international operations.
Analysts believe the routes most likely to be ditched include those to Buenos Aires and Bangkok.
Advertisement: Story continues below
Qantas flies to Europe via Singapore and Bangkok and it is considered Jetstar will take over services to the Thai capital.
Jetstar chief executive Bruce Buchanan is due to make a ''significant announcement'' in Beijing today about the no-frills airline's pan-Asia network.
It was unclear yesterday whether Jetstar would be offering direct flights between Australia and Beijing or its Singapore affiliate, Jetstar Asia, widening its reach into the fast-growing Chinese market. Jetstar Asia's chief, Chong Phit Lian, is also due in Beijing for the ''network announcement''.
Jetstar does not offer direct flights between Australia and China but Jetstar Asia has services from its Singapore base to destinations on the Chinese mainland, including Shanghai and Guilin. Jetstar has been seeking landing slots in Beijing for the past three years.
In March, the Australian and Chinese governments agreed to increase the cap on the number of seats on flights between the two countries. Chinese airlines have boosted flights to Australia over the past year.
Qantas has previously flagged interest in building a base in China as part of a launch pad for flights by itself or Jetstar to Europe. The group does have the necessary air rights from Chinese authorities to fly to Europe but it is yet to gain approval from European regulators.
Qantas operates six flights a week, using Airbus A330s, between Sydney and Shanghai. The airline does not fly to Beijing.
Shares in Qantas fell the most in four months yesterday, closing down 9.5¢ at $1.84."


Read more: Jetstar pan-Asia plan has flights to Beijing (http://www.theage.com.au/business/jetstar-panasia-plan-has-flights-to-beijing-20110712-1hc5f.html#ixzz1RtyRhe1P)

[Captain Gidday]

and the key components of 3100 Boeing planes now hurried worldwide were made in China.
I'm just guessing here, but it might be a fair guess that Boeing right about now wish they had been more in-house and less global with some of their manufacturing.
Updated: 4:14 pm PDT July 11, 2011
SEATTLE -- Boeing has put its 787 assembly line in Everett on hold for about a month because of parts shortages and "engineering changes,"

[Angle of Attack]

Ok then let's move all the mining jobs overseas! They can Fly in, Fly out probably cheaper than now! If you want to make us global let's do it and it won't be just mining it will be construction, truck drivers, you name it!

By the way DS products failed so you can't really take advice from him

[lame1]

Who thinks Dick has access to the chairmans lounge

[SpannerTwister]

I think it was Gareth Evans who said of Dick Smith.....

"As an aviation regulator he's a good helicopter pilot". :E :ok: :E

Affordable safety, my bum :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

ST

[mikk_13]

Good news for Thai if they scrap bkk. I think most would agree the airport at bkk is far far better than sin. Is there really that much direct traffic from australia to sin, i would have thought it a high percentage would be flying onward. Where as bkk is a tourist holiday destination as well.

[Nose wheel first]

"If they (Qantas) don't move virtually everything up into Asia call centres, maintenance, any overhead they can they will go broke."


And if they do, they will most definately go broke because passengers have desserted them in droves due to poor customer service/language issues and increased rates of aircraft failue & engineering issues. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

I can't for the life of me understand this corporate fetish where all AJ, BB and others want to do is ship everything off shore. In less than 10 years when this current lot are long gone with millions of dollars in golden handshakes, someone will have to come in an clean the whole cock rotting mess up, and they'll be very lucky if there's anything left to salvage.

On a good note though, I hear AJ and the rest of his buddies is going to lead by example and move to Singapore or Beijing first. This is so they can understand better the impact of their imbicillic ideas on the business. They will be working under local conditions, with local rates of pay in local currency, under local labour laws. Good onya boys and girls!:ok:

['holic]

Dick Smith Foods: Australian Made Food, Australian, Foreign, Import, Export, Geographic, Electronics | BuyAustralianMade.com.au (http://www.buyaustralianmade.com.au/clients/341-dick-smith-foods)
Dick Smith Foods supports products which are produced by Australian owned businesses, which are Australian grown and made, and those Australian owned companies which operate in a highly ethical manner. Zero credibility

[Worrals in the wilds]

"If they (Qantas) don't move virtually everything up into Asia call centres, maintenance, any overhead they can they will go broke." (Dick Smith's article). +1 'holic. :yuk:
Funnly enough, plenty of Australian businesses are moving away from overseas call centres because, Da Da Da Dah (drum roll)... they piss the customers off. :=
Having recently re-located Worrals HQ I've had cause to ring about fifteen different multi million dollar Australian service providers. Two banks, insurers, telcos, energy providers, the list went on (and on :zzz:). They all had Aussie call centres and all the staff were helpful.

These companies have learned the hard way that if you don't have call centre staff that speak English and have a basic grasp of the service they're supposed to provide the customers quickly move elsewhere. One of the major banks is even using 'talk to a real person' in their sales pitch. They're not quite saying 'We've got real Orstrayans on the blowers' but the inference is obvious. :}

Most customers who call a call centre are stupid and/or in a tizz because something has gone horribly wrong. That's why they needed to call in the first place. A lousy call centre experience simply ensures that next time the stupid/freaked out person needs that particular product they'll go elsewhere., particularly if it's an allegedly premium product. For a LCC (or a really cheap internet provider) people will sometimes put up with a bit of a runaround, but Qantas Intl isn't a low cost product by any reckoning.

They'll also tell everyone they know, meet or sit next to on the bus that Company X sucks, because their call centre people couldn't help. Even Telstra figured this out eventually.

[Dixons Millions]

I do not know who wrote this, but ALL must see. An absolutely beautiful piece that truly dictates what will happen to QF. To the person that wrote it, apologies, but I do take my hat off to you. Brilliant.....

Jetstar "Exploiting Asian Market" - Alan Joyce's Irish suicide - an analysis"- sent to AH$ for posting...

"Exploiting Asian Markets" - Irish Suicide.

The CEO of Qantas has apparently said words to the effect that Qantas is going to "Exploit rapidly growing Asian markets."

I am so incensed by the lunacy of The Qantas Board and Management that I will go on record now and say that there is not a snowballs chance in hell that Qantas is going to: "Exploit rapidly growing Asian markets."

That is an Asian market and it is going to be exploited by Asians for Asians and to the benefit of Asian shareholders.

The only "impact" that Qantas is going to make on that market is a small stain on an Asian mattress someplace where Qantas shareholders cried themselves to sleep after losing their entire capital on an unprofitable failed Asian joint venture.

Pardon my French, but FFS, the history of Western investment in "Asian Markets" is a ******* cemetery of failed business ventures where the West has been efficiently skinned by their erstwhile Asian partners. Jetstars adventures in Vietnam should have been an absolute warning to them.

It takes what are called "Old China Hands" at least Thirty years of trading experience to engage profitably with China and the East, and this little Irish bowel movement thinks he can just walk in and make off with some profits?

Here is what is going to happen to you Alan;

1) You are going to be encouraged by your Asian partners to invest every bit of spare cash you have, or you can borrow, in your Asian operations.

2) You are going to be encouraged to invest your management time in your Asian operations to the exclusion of everything else.

3) You will be encouraged to move as much of your operations and employees to Asia as is physically possible.

4) In support of this strategy, you will be wined and dined by everyone from the Asian Government and business community from the top down. The continuous mantra being thrown in your direction will be "huge Asian markets."
5) At some point a few years from now, a stock market analyst will sound a warning that Qantas is now balls deep in Asia and that any downturn or disturbance in Asian markets will severely impact not just the Qantas International markets, but the Qantas Domestic market, which by then will have been "rearranged" to have synergies with the new you beaut Qantasia International (read deep discounts for Asian travelers plus Asian maintenance and crews, etc.).

6) The warnings won't be heeded. Remaining institutional investors who were wondering exactly what the Qantas sustainable competitive advantage in Asia really was will quietly exit. Qantas will start borrowing from the banks, who are always too stupid to see where companies are heading.

7) Within a year the cupboard is bare. Qantas is in hock to its eye teeth and still waiting for profits to be generated by the "huge Asian Markets". The revenue will be there, its just that everyone (the Asian partner, airports, lessors, maintenance organisations, manufacturers, finance houses, fuel suppliers, catering, ATC, etc. etc) seems to be making a dollar or two of profit except Qantas. Funny that.

8) Getting desperate for cash, Qantas tries to rearrange its finances and perhaps repatriate some funds to Australia.... and runs smack into a concrete wall of uncompromising Asian Governments, regulators, financial institutions and a less than helpful but"Oh so sorry" Asian "Partner".

Perhaps you like to sell your business? We make you velly good offer?

The Qantas Sale Act will be no help because there is nothing left to sell.

That is what is going to happen to Qantas Alan. You have absolutely no experience whatsoever in operating in Asian markets and neither has Qantas apart from flying in, filling up and departing, yet you think that running an LCC operation in a bog in Ireland is suitable experience for operating to the shores of the Middle Kingdom?

Take the old Asian custom of "gifts" also know in vulgar terms as kickbacks. How are you going to deal with the necessity of those Alan? Australian law prohibits them, but I guess that the Qantas auditors and your own "robust internal processes" will keep you safe.

Well, except that they didn't, did they?

Qantas one of 11 airlines fined $1.1 billion for rigging cargo prices | The Australian

Quote:
The fine comes three years after Qantas was fined $40 million for price-fixing in the North American air cargo market.

In 2008, Qantas also agreed to pay a fine of $20 million under a deal reached with the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission over the European price-fixing cartel.
Never mind Alan, the Board knows how to deal with the thorny problem of Asian business customs. They will keep you safe. Leigh Clifford comes from Rio Tinto. They know all about Chinese corruption don't they?

Rio Tinto mops up after China bribery mess | The Australian.


So how are you going to do the "exploiting" Alan? Tell us about the mass of trained Qantas managers who know instinctively what to do when there appear to be employees on the payroll that have never been seen; when invoices appear that cannot be reconciled. What happens when you discover that the security guards on your stores and property exist to prevent you from accessing them after hours when the real business is being conducted? Do you understand that you had better give your Chinese managers about Ten percent of the shareholding lest they be enticed away to your loss? Have you ever had to write on a Six million dollar invoice "Please do not ask for credit as refusal often offends", Alan? Alan? Tell us about your vast experience of the orient! Do you like Chinese food? Is that it?

Somebody should tell this bog Irish idiot that he is not doing business with another Belgium or Holland. He knows nothing about the East - where business is played by rather different rules. Just ask Cathay and Swire, they have only been in the game for what? Two hundred years? ..And you are going to encroach on their territory?
It is perfectly clear who is going to do the "exploiting" in this transaction, and it won't be Qantas. You come to this market with zero expertise, and you are too stupid to understand that you have no understanding of what is required.

....and finally. The Board and management of Qantas keep harping about generating an "acceptable" return on Capital invested in the international business.......

Asia is the home of the concept of "Patient Capital"; exactly how does the long term Asian time horizon sit with your need to generate "Acceptable Returns" every year?

I can tell you right now that it doesn't. Wait till your business partner says: "Yes Alan, I know we are making a loss now, but in Ten years time!"

Please let everyone see this. The end of the Q as we all know it.....unless....

[Skipness One Echo]

What exactly is Plan B then?

[framer]

What exactly is Plan B then?

1/ Clear allocation of costs within the group to determine who is performing and who isn't.
2/Invest in modern aircraft on viable routes internationally and fly all the way to the destination providing high quality service.
3/De-segment the business so that one areas gain is not the next areas loss. ie manager A doesn't get a bonus for reducing manpower in his/her section at the expense of OTP or at cost to the next section.
4/Create some sort of dialog between the experts (operational staff) and the managers as to where efficiencies lie. Not a temporary dialog, a system for letting the information flow.....and then act on it when appropriate.
5/ Watch the airline compete.

[Sunfish]

Dixons millions:

I do not know who wrote this

It was me; I was in a bad mood.

[my oleo is extended]

It was me; I was in a bad mood. Bad mood ?? You should re-phrase that to 'accurate and truthful' mood. You are spot on mate, it is going to end bad for the group, really bad.

[bandit2]

Most people learn from their mistakes! I'm no genius but Australian Airlines to Japan- Gone. Margaret Jackson does send her thanks though. Jetstar in Vietnam- huge mess! Ask the two managers what they think of doing business in Asia is like. No offence to our Asian friends.

[Dixons Millions]

Sorry, I should have checked before I posted. Nonetheless, completely spot on. Please, write more...

[Budfox]

Lets also not forget that even though China is going gangbusters, some people regard them as a giant bubble that could tank anytime. They are doing whatever they can to keep the GDP high and that includes building any structures they can. Type in Chinas Ghost Cities into google and youtube and see what shows up :eek:
Very very scary stuff.
Wouldn't want to be exposed to Asian markets if the crap hits the fan and everyone is running for the exits. New start up Airlines will become bone yards quick smart.
I guess they have done their research and extensive risk assessments on the planned business expansions :rolleyes:
Fingers crossed China and others keep us all afloat lol :ok:

[teresa green]

Sunfish, Your best post ever. AIPA take it, clean it up a bit, Get a lawyer to check it, take one page of the Australian and put it out there for all to see. It will do more than any PA, it will make MP'S sit up and notice, business people will identify and see the sense in it, it will give hope to a battling QF staff, and it will make the public aware that they could lose their national carrier, and it will make utter gooses out of the board and Joyce. Can't afford it? I think most of us would be happy to throw some money in to get it out there. :D

[7378FE]

and it will make the public aware that they could lose their national carrier

So, the public are aware, it's still not going to stop them flying SQ CX EK QR etc.

People need to be given a reason to fly QF, because it's Australian & expensive isn't a reason, If QF was Australian and matched the prices of foreign carriers then people may start drifting back and If QF were Australian, matched the prices of foreign carriers AND had excellent service then people will probably come in thier droves.

[DrPepz]

So, the public are aware, it's still not going to stop them flying SQ CX EK QR etc.

People need to be given a reason to fly QF, because it's Australian & expensive isn't a reason, If QF was Australian and matched the prices of foreign carriers then people may start drifting back and If QF were Australian, matched the prices of foreign carriers AND had excellent service then people will probably come in thier droves.

Most home carriers price very highly out of their home market. SQ is the most expensive airline ex SIN, CX is the most expensive ex HKG, EK ex DXB etc. Many a time you would find SQ's prices DXB-Asia via SIN are almost the same price as DXB-SIN, simply because they have no pricing power ex DXB, the same way EK has limited pricing power ex SIN.

EK prices highly out of Dubai because they are the only airline, most of the time, that can take people DXB-Europe direct, or DXB-USA direct. SQ prices highly ex SIN because they are the only airline that takes you to Sao Paulo and Houston without a change of plane, or to Copenhagen and Rome without going via DXB or a European hub. As such, EK and SQ from their respective home markets can charge a premium for getting you to your destination from DXB and SIN direct, as opposed to competitors like TG or BA who get you to continental Europe with a stop via BKK or LHR.

Plus with home carrier advantage, especially for business travellers who will be loyal to the FFP programme, the home airline can by and large charge what they like, and the home population will flock to fly them.

QF is an aberration though. They may be the home carrier of Australia and they attempt to charge high prices, but does not play the same role as what home carriers of most other markets do:

1. QF cannot take most Australians in fewer stops to other destinations than competing airlines, especially if you don't live in Sydney. SQ rapes you ex SIN to take you non stop to Copenhagen, but you're paying for the privilege to fly the only SIN-CPH direct flight. QF on the other hand tries to rape Australians for flying two stops SYD-SIN-LHR-CPH, when (insert the myriad of airlines here) can do it for one-stop and at a cheaper price too

2. QF does not have much of a competitive advantage in the home market in terms of frequent flyer loyalty and things like that because foreign airlines like SIA and EK have tie-ups with banks and other consumer businesses in Australia

3. QF's market share in their home market is among the lowest of any country. 18% for Australia in total. If you remove the USA and NZ and count only countries West of Australia, it would probably fall to 10%. In contrast, the SIA Group (with Silk Air) has 42% of the SIN market (it rises to 50% if you include that unmentionable Tiger), CX has just under 40% of HKG, EK has 60% of DXB etc. Significant market share means significant pricing power. QF is trying to charge an arm and a leg ex Australia, but WITHOUT significant marketshare.

I have had Australians friends express slight embarrassment to me whenever they see the Tourism Australia Ads screened internationally, where they show the nice sights and sounds of Australia, which ends with "Let Singapore Airlines take you to Australia" and a short clip of the Singapore Girl smiling and the A380 cabin being shown. Looks "wrong" after all the shots of Ayers Rock, the Sydney harbour and kangaroos hopping around, they say! But the fact is SIA can play a far more meaningful role in bringing tourists into Australia compared to QF, due to its far larger network.

Where QF has the advantage though, is the domestic FFP programme. Many Australians I know who clock up significant mileage on domestic QF flights (and attain Gold, Plat as a result) tend to like to stick with QF on international flights.

However this advantage may soon be eroded with Virgin Australia's tie up with SQ, EY and DL. Especially with SQ, Virgin Plat now gives you the exact same privileges as Krisflyer Gold. Plus, no amount of status can compensate for taking longer to reach your final destination in continental Europe, and a change of planes, terminals and transfer process through LHR at 6am.

And patriotism? Well the fact is around 90% of Australians who travel West of Australia do not take Qantas. Not that you're not a patriotic lot, but you're a pragmatic lot who doesn't want to pay more to get less!

[teresa green]

I disagree. Australians by their very nature are apathetic to most things, but to some things they are protective. The Anzac tradition is the first, Qantas is second. Sure they fly the cheapest, but they still marry the airline and the country together. They still marry the airline and its history as a very important part of the country's history. The people are now starting to stir, my old buddy, a MP (lib) tells me, the people are sending in emails of protest about the possibility of QF going offshore, they believe it is not a Asian airline, but a Australian airline, and Australian jobs and the future for young Australians is paramount . I would not write off Mr. and Mrs Average just yet.

[onetrack]

Hey, leprechauns guard a pot of gold, don't they? He's sure going to need it, to fund his huge "Asian Market Penetration Drive"... ;)

I'm not sure what's in the LIBM's scheme. AFAI understood, Qantas is a recognised Brand Name. Just like Kellogs, Macca's, Disney, etc, etc. Qantas is recognised world wide as THE Australian airline with THE unparalleled safety record.
No pax fatality in the jet age, blah blah (despite a few VERY close shaves!), translates into... "Qantas has never had an accident of any kind", to most airline seat-warmers, who mostly have to be informed, which is the pointy end of the 'plane.
Never mind, these pax are happy, safe-feeling, and basking in a warm cosy glow, that they are flying on the "safest airline in the world, with an unparalleled (no) accident record", when the cabin crew finally shut the doors.

This feeling, and the company image, is worth a lot of money, to any airline. It's the MAJOR factor that keeps the customers coming, and differentiates them from any other airline, that might have similar-coloured planes, and similarly-dressed pilots and FO's.
I would guess that the LIBM has in mind, that this will be a big selling point to the Chinese. Herein lies a VERY large question mark. Will it matter to the Chinese? Or will they be happier flying on planes with "China" somewhere in the name?

I agree wholeheartedly with Sunfish's leading post and dissertation. I think he's spot-on. Operating in China isn't just like starting a depot in Kiwiland. It's a whole new ball game, and I don't think the LIBM has much of an idea, of just exactly what he IS taking on.

Maybe it's that he doesn't really care. Maybe he's just another corporate CEO clone, identical to all the rest.

The modus operandi is... keep demanding and collecting your $30M salary, and keep complaining about how much you do to earn it... then when you f**k the company with some unbelievably idiotic corporate decision-making... grab your $20M bonus and do a runner.

Some other corporate CEO would-be, will be left to sort out the s**t you left behind... but you won't care... you'll have "moved on", and be telling another bunch of sucker shareholders and angry employees of the new company you're now "managing"... of the fabulous plans you have in mind, to turn this new company around.... :suspect::{:ugh::ugh:

[Slasher]

Well said Sunfish, and that's EXACTLY how it will play out! :D :ok:

[victor two]

Ahhhh. The anti qantas meeting thread has run out steam and the mindless sheep are off and running again about asian markets.
Few things:
I am pretty sure qantas has run some financials on the virtues investing in asia. They probably even hired some fairly smart minds to assist with, that is to say, smarter than a bunch of negative and burned out old airline farts and GA halfwits who have subscriptions to Australian Flying magazine.
Secondly, what has it got to do with you anyway? Most other large aussie companies are going offshore but somehow qantas cant do so.....why not exactly? Its none of your business at the end of the day.
Thirdly, have none of you noticed what a bunch of mindless sooks you sound like. Insolent Little brats who would lick the feet of a qantas recruiter to gain employment one day and then spend the rest of your days trying to it down. Mindless little sheep who need to get out of your houses and see how the big bad world really turns.
Finally, Dick Smith is a great australian who has achieved more and contributed more to aviation and general society than all of you put together.

You are entitled to an opinion, you have now had it so maybe shut up and get back to work. Losers!

[Shark Patrol]

Victor 2,

Would these "smart minds" used by Qantas to run the Qantasia numbers be like the geniuses who ordered the domestic galleys to be put into the A330-200? Any burnt out old fart who reads Australian Flying could have saved Qantas millions by telling the geniuses that the -200 was the long-range variant.

Why don't you shut up and go back to kissing management's butt.

[tail wheel]

Victor Two. On this forum you are permitted your opinion however there is an expectation you will respect the various opinions of other users, whether you agree or disagree, without the use of derogatory terms.

You are entitled to an opinion, you have now had it so maybe shut up and get back to work. Losers!

That is not an acceptable response. If you find this thread overly vexatious I am happy to change your access rights so you won't see this thread?

[Sunfish]

V2:

I am pretty sure qantas has run some financials on the virtues investing in asia. They probably even hired some fairly smart minds to assist with, that is to say, smarter than a bunch of negative and burned out old airline farts and GA halfwits who have subscriptions to Australian Flying magazine.
Secondly, what has it got to do with you anyway? Most other large aussie companies are going offshore but somehow qantas cant do so.....why not exactly? Its none of your business at the end of the day.

1. I'm sure "Qantas has run some financials", however there is considerably more to a successful operation in Asia than that. That is my point.

To put that another way, you are saying the equivalent of: "anyone can fly a B747, just read the manual".

2. The fate of Qantas has a lot to do with the patterns of economic growth in Australian States. Air travel, specifically frequent direct flights, is of critical importance in overseas investment decisions. While it isn't so bad now, the behaviour of Qantas is of critical importance to regional development.

To put that another way, if getting around Australia was as simple as calling a cab, I wouldn't give a flying toss about Qantas. Unfortunately that is not the case.

[hoss58]

Can I please have some of whatever Victor Two is taking.

:sad::sad::sad:

Fly safe and play hard

Regards Hoss58

[onetrack]

Mmmm, it was nice of Victor Two to add his valuable, constructive and thoughtful opinions to this thread.
I'll wager he runs his dept along the same lines, and with the same applied skills, too. Savage, belittling abuse, bullying and harrassment, are such useful skills, when you have no real leadership ability. :D:D

[TIMA9X]

It's possible some of the Q management types didn't like this video, good to have on here for the record and for those who missed it.

8_UtqLbp90w

.

[SIUYA]

Secondly, what has it got to do with you anyway?

Its none of your business at the end of the day.

WRONG on both counts Victor Two, particularly if you're a QF shareholder.

Disclaimer: I'm not a QF shareholder.

[1a sound asleep]

You never make an investment where you have no control. This Japanese venture is effectively controlled by the Japanese, but Qantas is carrying all the risk :ugh: FAIL :ugh:

Just like Jetstar and Vietnam :ugh::ugh:

Singapore is smater - note that their investment in Australia is 100% Singapore owned. Do you think they would have run Tiger with say Australians owning the controlling interest

Rather see $200M profits than the losses this Irish Suicide in Asia will create:zzz:

[grip-pipe]

Sunfish, could not agree more. Lots and lots of experience in Asia myself and family connections as well. Your always an outsider if your white and always will be, you need to have been there for at least a century to even be tolerated. As for the view of others that this is some sort of racist or exenphobic rant, give us all a break, China and Japan are the two most xenophobic countries on earth, ask any non Chinese even of Asian descent who live there.

Not content with being skinned in Vietnam (Who knows how many bribes and backhanders they had to dish out to extract the aussie executives there and to keep the Jetstar JV going) they now propose to go into partnership with JAL and Mitsubishi in Japan. Last I heard JAL was for the knackers yard financially and nobody wanted any part of it least of all the Japanese Banks who are also knackered. The Japanese Government has just had it's credit rating down graded yet again, so once again, the smart and nimble Asian entrepreneurs have suckered a business from a country with a AAA rating to invest in a country that is not. They will bleed Qantas dry and then cannabilise the remains. JAL must love Qantas, lots of nice new airbuses courtesy of the Aussies.

Well done guys, you have just sold the jobs and futures of many fine and hardworking Aussie aviators down the tube. FFS!

As for DS view is there anyway to shut this goose up!

[DrPepz]

Singapore is smater - note that their investment in Australia is 100% Singapore owned. Do you think they would have run Tiger with say Australians owning the controlling interest

You mean so smart that the previous SIA management just allowed the Brit management they hired in Tiger to run amok in Australia, not doing anything whatsoever to control them, until the grounding disaster blew up in their faces?

Tiger Airways to raise $126m to buy aircraft, strengthen balance sheet | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/tiger-airways-to-raise-126m-to-buy-aircraft-strengthen-balance-sheet/story-e6frg95x-1226122553444)

TIGER Airways plans to raise $S158.6 million ($126m) in a rights issue to fund aircraft purchases and strengthen its balance sheet as the budget carrier recovers from loss of business in Australia, where it was grounded for six weeks on safety concerns.

The airline plans to offer one rights share for every two shares held by its investors, totalling 273.4 million new shares at S58 cents apiece, it said in a statement last night.

Tiger's shareholders -- Singapore Airlines and Temasek Holdings, which collectively own 40.2 per cent of the carrier -- will subscribe to the rights issue. They have also committed to underwrite 90 per cent of the sale, according to the statement.

From what I heard, Crawford Rix and his gang had zero idea on what to do in Australia especially with CASA and when the very last CASA notice came, he just put it in his drawer because he was too afraid to show it to his board and senior management in Singapore. SIA found out about the grounding from the evening news. Alas this reflects rather poorly on SIA unfortunately, as it does on Crawford Rix.

SIA has messed up twice in the relatively benign operating environment of Australia. The first mistake cost them $400 mil in 2001, and the second one cost them $130 mil last week. In 2001, Qantas lobbied like crazy to the federal govt to keep SIA out of ANZ-AN. Qantas also lobbied like crazy to keep SIA out of SYD-LAX - just like MAS will do in Malaysia, CX in will do in HKG and all the Chinese airlines will do in China if they were confronted by such foreign competition.

In return, Singapore has gifted Qantas a sham set-up in Jetstar Asia, and all the valuable rights ex SIN which the QF Group now has access to, despite SIA's displeasure. No other country one earth would be as kind (or one would say dumb) as Singapore.

SIA have also gotten into trouble with potential acquisitions in India, China and Taiwan, which always seemed to have been approved, then in the last minute local interests always overturned the decisions, always unexpectedly.

QF has always used its influence with politicians and members of the establishment to get exactly what it wants in Australia. It may be a bit more colourful in emerging Asia, but the basic principles are the same - powerful and established local companies everywhere will do everything within their influence to protect their home turf.

This is why I have repeatedly said that if Alan Joyce and Co are going to march into Asia and do what SIA has failed repeatedly to do, then SIA should hire AJ as its next CEO to replace the current one when his term ends in 4-5 years.

[1a sound asleep]

You mean so smart that the previous SIA management just allowed the Brit management they hired in Tiger to run amok in Australia, not doing anything whatsoever to control them, until the grounding disaster blew up in their faces?

And the same will happen to Qantasia. At least SIA had the ability to have 100% control. Qantas will just be a minority but putting on the line the whole of Qantas:}

[ohallen]

And let us not forget that contracts and legal obligations means nothing. They are risking not just the capital but also the livelihood of every expat employee who is domiciled in country as the Vietnamese just taught them PLUS whatever it takes to actually get out of the place when it all turns to ****e.

Don't kid yourself either that any claimed expertise will save the day.

The strategy is nothing more than a gamble based on false assumptions and deceptions of the most obvious kind.

Smartest guys on the planet for sure.

[Touch'n'oops]

Wow!!!

I'm gonna have to disagree with pretty much everything!

Who am I? I am an Englishman that has lived all his life in Asia and have watched it change in many ways.

First point, it is sad to see people loose their jobs in ANY country. But, then again Qantas is not placed well to compete with the rise of Asian and Middle East carriers. You are an island that sits on the edge of a continent/anywhere and that continent can do things cheaper and well. Plus you don't get the benefit of attracting the transit Market by being on the edge.
There is not the luxury of a large population to pledge loyalty to the airline. The taxes are insane and the cost of legacy contracts crippling.

If Qantas was in the position of say BA, then there would deffinately be a case for a fight on their own turf. However, Qantas doesn't have an abundance of routes in which it competes with airlines that have the same fancial costs of running an airline in a More Economically Developed Country.

Why did Qantas do so well before... Monopoly, it had always been said that airfares in Oz were ridiculous because of this and it was true. Now regulation has allowed for more competion and that cash cow is long gone and the real world is biting.

Jetstar Asia is a good call! Singapore is a major hub, low tax, well educated work force and yes that Asian market is growing fast. Hence the full Jetstar Asia planes... Which tends to equate to profit! No?

What about the local investors and repatriating of profits?
Local investor, yes there is one to hold the majority, however do you think Qantas can really be that dump not to have this investor sign a contract to act only as a silent shareholder? The 51% is to protect Singapore pride. He would have also signed agreeing to reinvest any dividends back into the company in return for a set finical reward.
Now about repatriating of profit. Singapore is doing its upmost to maintain its imagine of a free market. Imagine if the government hindered the movement of these profits back to Oz? Banks and fancial institutions, whom have gigantic funds base here, would take scare. Therefore the loss of business for Singapore would far out weigh the benefit of holding onto only a hundred million or so.

Protectionism is an Australian word. Why is Emirates and Ethihad being told they can't fly certain direct routes? Apparently they have enough flights, according the government. What about the Opposition's move block imports of NZ apples, EVEN after the World Trade Organisation has ruled a trade block would be illegal?!

In essence, Qantas will always be around, but not as it was! The world and the rules have changed and management are taking unpopular decisions, because the other option is far more disastrous... No Qantas all together... That would be a very sad day! :sad:

Change is never popular, accept what is reality. Because history is littered with numerous companies that didn't adapt to a changing world. The good times are gone and it sucks... Look at car maker Rover in the UK did great then sat on its hind sure that things would get better... Bust!

One name... Swissair!????

[Tankengine]

Mate, where do you start?

First : the name is QANTAS!:rolleyes:

Second : there is a large tie-up with BA, perhaps to QFs detriment at times.

Third : monopoly, yep - like many airlines in-out of home country.

Fourth : Jetstar Asia - profit? - I don't think so!!:ugh:

Fifth : Yes we do think management is that "dump"???:hmm:
control is important.

Sixth : change is inevitable, this direction is simply the WRONG changes!:=

[packrat]

Qantas didnt have a domestic network until it and TAA/Australian merged.
The domestic market was a duopoly between Ansett and TAA.
Qantas never had a monopoly on international traffic in and out of Australia...it still doesn't
Air France
Alitalia
KLM
Olympic
BOAC/BA
Have all flown into Australia at one time.Now there are thirty odd carriers flying in and out of OZ

[Touch'n'oops]

First: You're right QANTAS doesn't have the extra 'a', but spellcheck thinks it does. Sorry.

Second: The tie up between BA and QF. I agree that it can't that beneficial to QF.

Third: The Monopoly I was referring to was only domestic. Even a Duopoly is never good. e.g. The SQ and MI duopoly charging a bloody fortune to fly between SIN and KUL a number of years ago. QF and Ansett had that till QF decided to price out Ansett. The same was tried with Virgin Australia, but failed. You cannot deny that QF did not profit hugely from earlier domestic operations.
One thing is clear, loss making Qantas International can't compete with other carriers except on the Kangaroo route and West Coast USA, which in these cases they are vying for business against carriers with similar cost structures.

Fourth: I have seen nothing at Jetstar Asia to suggest we are a suffering business. I would be inclined to agree with you if it wasn't for full planes and when I try to book to fly with Jetstar (Not eligible for staff travel yet.), tickets are not considered rock bottom.

Fifth: You're not supposed to love them. :hmm:

Sixth: Let's have some constructive ideas. So far, all I have heard is "no you can't". What about generating some ideas that the "dumb buggers" in management have missed. :ok:

[Tankengine]

Constructive ideas :
Buy some 777s to replace most 744s, keep the 9 newest [as currently planned] for Dallas, South Africa and South America. [4 engine routes] Use 380s where loads are high enough.
Re-think configs on all aircraft [380 first is a fantastic product and money spinner, but it does need more Y class seats too!]
Put 787s in Qantas colours for domestic to replace 767s.
Qantas domestic is making money, a lot of that is 767 and A330 on longhaul award so pilot costs are not everything!:ok:
Stop pulling out of ports that are just profitable but not daily and expand to a daily service, travel agents like daily services! Profits will come!
Use 330s to service thinner routes, link all ports : eg BNE/PER - BKK/KUL.

I am glad Jetstar Asia is flying full, but at low yield you need to be!
I can remember Athens in the old days - 105% load factor to break even!
I just flew home from Shanghai with 90 pax - so much for Asia saving us! :ugh:

[Jetsbest]

"One thing is clear, loss making Qantas International..."

That, sir, is the one big assertion so many players are taking at face value just because QF 'managers' said it. :hmm:

Look a little further at the many threads raising reasonable questions which management seem unwilling or unable to answer in simple and direct language. There is some basis in fact for those questions. MP Nick Xenophon, Ben Sandilands (Crikey.com), the associations representing the long-term employees, and others who also want QF to be successful are all skeptical of the figures.

That's not to say they aren't open to change, flexibility and compromise. But they are fed up with evidently deceptive and/or expedient manipulation of company results from a management who've overseen many other factors harming the brand/business, and who continue to "talk it down". :suspect:

[Shark Patrol]

Let's have some constructive ideas.

Touch'n'oops:

Our union negotiators have sat opposite thie rmanagement counterparts and asked what LH pilots have to do to secure a long-term future. Their questions have been met by blank stares. They do NOT WANT to negotiate a future for us. They want to DESTROY mainline longhaul. This is the crux of the industrial situation and the reason why longhaul pilots have NOTHING to lose. This IS the endgame NOW!!!!

[GUARD]

I would stop negotiating. Pure and simple.

Put aircraft on the deck until they come to us looking to have a bit of a chat!!!

[breakfastburrito]

GUARD, I believe this is exactly what management wants the pilots to do, it will allow them to throw their hands up and use it as justification to shut down the longhaul operation.

The longer this continues, revelations adverse to management's agenda surface, and will continue to surface. More time for inquiries, more time for scrutiny, more questions to answer. Political, public & journalistic sentiment & commentary is running very strongly against management. Journalists are questioning the ad campaign, and can see through the deliberate "Trashing" of the brand by management and not the pilots. Pilots do not want to see the brand trashed, but clearly management do, for their own nefarious ends.

Time is not on managements side. Force them to make the moves, force them to sack pilots & engineers, don't hand them a licence to shut the place down on a platter. This is a marathon, not a sprint, patience.

[JDI]

breakfast burrito - You are absolutely correct!!!

To go on strike would play right into Management's hands and we would lose all the hard earned public support we have and give the company a free kick. Mostly we need to keep hammering away to get the real truth out there?

Letters and calls to politicians, support the Journo's telling the truth and pressure to the lazy corrupt ones to do something inspirational like "report the truth, not the spin"

It's so frustrating and demoralizing but we all must keep pushing hard?

[GUARD]

Breakfast B,

Fair point. Normally I'm very measured But just felt that the current approach is a little bit akin to trying to force an ex-lover to love you.

I think the campaign is going well and the behaviour of management is telling.

Lets hope it ends well.

GUARD

[Touch'n'oops]

Jetsbest:
If Qantas International wasn't making a loss and domestic operations is holding it's own. Then why would QF management want to shutdown a profitable side of the business? Shareholders would not appreciate the cut in dividends.

Tankengine:
You're are right about the fleet upgrades. However, I believe the 787s are heading to Jetstar so destinations like England can be reached from Singapore and the 330 will be handed back so 767s can be replaced?!
The closing of profitable routes may simply be down to the inability to justify such great expenditure and investment of assets on a route that gives a very small profit margin. It's like investing $1,000,000 and getting $100 in profit, still profit, but not worth the investment.

I still believe Jetstar is a good move by Qantas, but as a string to its bow not a solution to its problems. In the same way GO airlines was for BA, till the idiots sold it for just £100M then to have it sold on for £375M a year later!

I was in an airline a number of years ago when management turned round, laid its cards on the table to the union and asked what could be done to save money. That worked well as we pilots knew where could save money within our body. Shame none of that is happening with Qantas.

Guess it is a case of a CEO thinking he can save the day by himself! I.e. Tony Davis thinking he was being sent to Tiger Australia to turn it around, only to find himself fired within a month. He also did a mighty s*** job at Singapore based Tiger, but was totally unaware.:hmm:

[ozangel]

Touch'n'oops:

Q: Why would they shut down a profitable section of the business?
A: Because they are morons.

Simple.

[DutchRoll]

But......isn't the reason we pay obscenely bloated executive remuneration in Oz so we get only the very very bestest CEOs in the whole wide world? Alan Joyce must therefore clearly know what the best solutions are for Qantas, even if they fly in the face of what every other premium airline is doing.

:ugh:

Apparently the other day, during his regular teleconference with the troops who can fire off questions, John Borghetti, in response to a question of whether they could accelerate the rollout of their business products to compete with Qantas, stated "don't worry - while Alan Joyce is in charge of Qantas, we have nothing to fear". Or something to that effect.

Even if only half true, it's deadly accurate!

[tong]

Best post I've seen on PP for a long while

[ampclamp]

Dutchroll, can you get confirmation? That would be gold!

Touchnoops, what you describe is teamwork, sadly we are the enemy to be squashed. Joyce had the chance and choice. he failed.

[DutchRoll]

Unfortunately I can't get confirmation. My understanding is that JB runs some sort of "phone in" conference type arrangement periodically where staff can ask questions and the comment was made in response to a query from a Virgin pilot about how long the business class product would take to get rolled out.

It would certainly not be an unrealistic view in any case. Everybody knows AJ is absolutely obsessed with the low cost leisure travel model, and every bloke and his dog knows AJ's low cost carrier does and will continue to cannibalise his premium brand. The world rides ups and downs of economic cycles, and whenever the next "up" occurs, he will have left QF with diddly-squat. JB should be able to fill this niche nicely with his forward planning.

[tong]

I watched that movie about Senna the other night. Prost said in the interview about the rivalry with Senna at the very beginning 'He did not want to beat me he wanted to annihilate me' ... That sounds like the message the company is well and truly sending out.

[dragon man]

Regarding the comments above re the 787 to London. Im sure AJ said the Jetstar 787-800 would have 313 seats in 2 clas configuration. What i find confusing is that ANA operating the same aircraft on international routes (Haneda/Frankfurt) will have 158 (46/112). So how do QF/Jetstar think the customers will react to been stuffed into a flying sardine can. J class cant be a lie flat bed. Secondly the A330 coming back to QF is not a 767 replacement. At Sydney domestic there are only 2 gates that can take the A330/747. There are many more 767s there generally than 2. Just another well thought out delema for QF managment.

[Tankengine]

I fly the 330 so am happy the fleet will start expanding :ok:- BUT it has a parking problem domestically due to wingspan.:ugh:
My point re "just" profitable routes is that they are invariably 3-4 times a week, if changed to daily [perhaps with smaller aircraft] they would end up more profitable.

Interesting thought: If a 744 operates PER-SYD domestically :
Do all the costs go to "international" but the ticket sales go to "domestic"?:confused::E

[Normasars]

Dutchie said;

Apparently the other day, during his regular teleconference with the troops who can fire off questions, John Borghetti, in response to a question of whether they could accelerate the rollout of their business products to compete with Qantas, stated "don't worry - while Alan Joyce is in charge of Qantas, we have nothing to fear". Or something to that effect.

Even if only half true, it's deadly accurate!.



As I said on another thread, JB better start making some money instead of headlines. At least QF is posting healthy profits; something that can't be said for VA.

AJ must be something right.


Just a thought.

[Whispering T-Jet]

ANA seeks regulatory permission to launch JV with AirAsia
Posted On: 02 Sep 2011
All Nippon Airways (ANA) officially applied Wednesday to Japan's Legal Affairs Bureau to establish its planned joint venture LCC with AirAsia to be called AirAsia Japan.
ANA said it will apply for an Air Operator's Certificate for AirAsia Japan "with the aim of beginning low-cost operations from August next year." The carrier will be based at Tokyo Narita.
ANA said it will initially invest ¥10 million in the JV, with its total investment eventually rising to ¥5 billion (US$65.1 million), giving it a 51% stake.
Kazuyuki Iwakata, ANA VP-international and regulatory affairs, was named CEO of AirAsia Japan. The LCC plans to operate both domestic and international flights.
Wires


A successful asian LCC teams up with successful Japanese Major vs. foreigner teams up with bankrupt Japanese major (JAL).

Air Do and Skymark won't take J* Japan lying down either.

This SIGWX chart is a metaphor for AJ's strategy - a typhoon heading for a nuclear accident::ugh:

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss210/Ted_Striker/p92124402chart21095871copy-1.jpg

[e747]

There has been a team in Angeles City(clark Field) looking at setting up here,is this the new location.:O

[DrPepz]

Clark? But Clark has:

SEAir (with Tiger)
Air Phil Express (LCC of Philippine Airlines)
Air Asia Philippines
Cebu Pacific

setting up there.

Is there space for a fifth hub carrier ?!?!?!?!? QF will have to join the queue for air rights ex Clark!

[QF22]

On the SE Asia forum there is a thread about the above looking for A320 pilots.
On the website they have a Hong Kong and Australian phone number.
I am not a pilot and havent seen this mob b4 but it's gotta be for QF and JQ?

[DutchRoll]

As I said on another thread, JB better start making some money instead of headlines. At least QF is posting healthy profits; something that can't be said for VA.

Yes, I agree that the proof will be in the pudding for JB. However you'd realise that a fairly lean airline during a global downturn undergoing a building phase is going to take some hits. And don't even get me started on why it might be that Jetstar seems to be the only low cost carrier in the entire world which bucks this trend so dramatically and counter-intuitively........:confused:

But does it bother you at all that AJ so regularly cries "poor", predicts impending doom and gloom for Qantas unless everybody agrees to work for free (metaphorically speaking), then announces a healthy profit under virtually whatever circumstances?

Both of the above phenomenon are intriguing and it certainly makes me wonder.....

[Sunfish]

As I predicted last year when it was announced, the Qantas "Asian" strategy is now in tatters.

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/456991-exploiting-asian-markets-irish-suicide.html

Joyce will have to go. Clifford will probably have to follow. Anyone with the slightest knowledge of Asia knew that this strategy was simply handwaving with no chance of success.

Thousands of Australian businessmen have burned their fingers trying to obtain some Asian pie. Any and all of them could have told Joyce that his idea was based on ignorance of Asia.

The real issue now is that the Qantas Board and senior management have wasted precious time on this matter.

Get rid of Joyce, find a new chairman and CEO. Forget playing footsie with the former APA banker boyze and Geoff Dixon. Clean out the narcissists from senior management and start building Qantas as an Australiain airline again.

Your natural customers are Australians Qantas. How about asking them what they want and then delivering it? There are still Australians like me who felt we were "home" the minute we boarded a Qantas Aircraft in London, Frankfurt, Paris and such places.

As for offshoring maintenance, the lunacy of that will become apparent in due course.


QANTAS has canned plans to establish a premium airline in Asia after a financial crisis left potential partner Malaysian Airlines unwilling to risk the ambitious project.

The blow to what had been portrayed as a significant plank in the airline's international strategy leaves it still seeking a solution to weak penetration of its mainline services into Asia and falling premium market share in the world's fastest-growing aviation market.




Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantass-premium-asia-plan-fails-to-lift-off/story-e6frg95x-1226295442812)

[stubby jumbo]

Hear, Hear

Sunfish.....'totally agree.

If YOU TUBE can get 60 million "views" for some brutal dictator in Africa.

Surely with the right campaign here we might be able to expose this bunch of numb nutz for what they really are:

TOTALLY INCOMPETENT

IT'S TIME!!

[Ejector]

"LIBM"
Little Irish Bowel Movement
Perfect description

Don't Aussies have another slang word for that? :O

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi Sunny,

Apols to Mr Kipling, for a 'slight' change.....

"The evil and the good.
Now it is not good for the Christian's health to hustle the Asian
brown,
For the Christian riles, and the Asian smiles and he weareth the
Christian down;
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of
the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear: "A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the
East."

Says it all, really......:}

Cheers:ok:

[LeadSled]

----foreigner teams up with bankrupt Japanese major (JAL).Whispering TJ,
You's a bit out of date, the re-organization of JAL looks like it's been a roaring success. A rarity in Japan, real changes have been made, and JAL looks like being back in the black in 12 months.
So confident is the new management that they have just upped their 787 order substantially, and converted some of the pre-existing -8 orders to -9.
Tootle pip!!

[TheWholeEnchilada]

Leadsled, two threads have been merged & we have entered the time warp. In all fairness to Whispering T, he made that comment back on 3 Sep 2011.

[V-Jet]

Normasars:
I can well believe that Borghetti quote. I have close hand experience of him saying 'The longer Joyce is there, the better I look' and from a friend of a friend 'Joyce makes my job easy'.

Unfortunately for the 35,000 staff the longer Joyce is there the worse they look and the longer Joyce is there it makes their job increasingly extremely difficult.

[unionist1974]

Sunfish ,
How much do you enjoy prediciting the demise of QF? What about all the folk that work there ? No interest to you ! No , I thought not

[Angle of Attack]

I have heard a rumour that indeed the Joyce will be soon given the soft shunt, aka f off by the investors. Lets see what the next week or so will bring.

[gobbledock]

One can only hope he is in line for a kick out the door, however seeing is believing. Only when big institutional investors have finally had enough will pressure be put on the Board to cut the little ragdoll loose. Although it will be ironic because the Board itself consists of the worst motley crew of complete idiots seen in the one place at the same time.

If Joyce goes then I suggest he move abroad as he has to be one of the most disliked mistrusted ninnies residing in Australia. Just incase he isn't aware yet - Alan, take your bank account and piss off. Qantas staff don't want you and neither does Australia, you are bad for business and an embarrassment to us.

[V-Jet]

Clifford is to Joyce what Dr Evil is to Mini-Me.

And yes - the board has to go. They chose this inane 'future' for the company ergo - they are the complete clowns for installing a useless yes-man puppet.

[peuce]

Yes, just because Joyce might go, doesn't mean all will be good in the world again.

The people who are pulling his strings are still there and, undoubtedly, a similarly compliant replacement will be installed.

[Capt Kremin]

Not necessarily. The end of the Red Q venture probably marks the end of the attempts to circumvent the QSA with regards to a premium product.

It was the means to offshore Qantas itself. It appears to be unviable. So unless pressure can be brought to bear on the government to repeal the QSA, QF management are stuck with the unsavoury prospect of having to promote the airline that was formerly a fixture in the top three brand names in Australia.

That will be, and I hate to use this phrase, a paradigm shift. It will require a cleaning out of upper level management and the Board, who simply cannot fathom such an approach. Dare we hope...?

[73to91]

The people who are pulling his strings are still there and, undoubtedly, a similarly compliant replacement will be installed.
When I caught up with some current and former QF staff last December for our annual Christmas drink, the scary thing that the current staff informed us of was:

The problem with QF and it's leadership is the Strong/Dixon relationship and their continued involvement. If Joyce goes the relacement will be BB and that is a bigger worry.

[porch monkey]

That's an interesting point. But the point about the board, having agreed to this farce, must also be cleaned out is well made. As I stated earlier, they all share culpability for the current position of the company and brand.

[ejectx3]

What now for our beleaguered roo? Not a word from our esteemed leaders on future direction, the ship drifts on rudderless , the silence is deafening.

Any predictions from the crystal ball?

[TIMA9X]

What now for our beleaguered roo?

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-QyZi520JJKw/T103xM4SVjI/AAAAAAAABro/9OQPWE_-QR8/s1120/01-albo%27s-do-nothing-circus-2.jpg

Back to the talking board....:{

[Capt Kremin]

Brilliant!!!:D:D:D

[aroa]

i didnt know he was left handed. :eek:

[Mr Leslie Chow]

The simple answer to turning mainline around is putting 787's on routes instead of the cancer getting 'em.

Just like the 380 and it's popularity, people want to fly the new stuff.

Build it and they will come....

But like any good knee jerk managerial hierarchy, stop ordering the good gear just as things will turn around.

Top plan :ok:

[Clipped]

The problem with QF and it's leadership is the Strong/Dixon relationship

Spot on. But it doesn't end there. If AJ goes, (praise the Lord), he will only be replaced from another from the matey's club at the Business Council of Aus.

Strong, Dixon, Gregg and Clifford haven't quite finished pilfering from the Rat. There's still that $3 billion in cash to get hold of.

[TIMA9X]

http://images.smh.com.au/2012/03/12/3121241/DB_20120312202426687321-420x0.jpg
The simple answer to turning mainline around is putting 787's on routes instead of the cancer getting 'em.
Spot on :ok:


Could that solitary figure rummaging through the used parachutes at Sydney Airport really be our very own Qantas boss Alan Joyce?

It would be unfair to label the abandoned Asian plan as half-baked for it never reached that stage. There was no oven, no cake tin and certainly no ingredients.

Read more: Back to basics for Joyce & Co (http://www.smh.com.au/business/back-to-basics-for-joyce-amp-co-20120312-1uwgb.html#ixzz1ouVcGusj)

It's not rocket science..... The last twelve months has been a horror story for all of us on here......

Sorry for the re-post but this fits on a couple of threads...

[The Green Goblin]

I noticed the aviation expert is very quite of late. GT I hope you can still look in a mirror without seeing a sellout.

It seems the rest of the mass media are starting to talk like ben sandilands.

Cheers for the link above Tima9x. It's heartening to see the masses waking up to what we have been saying since Dixon times.

AJ is the guy you want in the office doing the bean counting for a leader like JB who has vision, balls and determination. He is not the guy you want running the joint. He has no vision, no presence and no respect for his employees.

Frankly him and his team are an embarrassment.

God help us if the rattlesnake oil salesmen takes his place :eek:

[spelling_nazi]

Found video evidence that Qantas is being deliberately destroyed....
The destruction of Qantas - YouTube (http://youtu.be/cKWnif6kfsU)

[PPRuNeUser0198]

Cathay Pacific has joined legacy carriers from Singapore Airlines to Lufthansa and Australia's Qantas in reporting a plunge in earnings as high fuel prices and the global uncertainty stemming from Europe bite.

Full-year net income at Hong-Kong based Cathay slumped 61 per cent to $HK5.5 billion ($671 million) in 2011, despite a 10 per cent rise in revenue to $HK98.4 billion.

Disregarding the effect of fuel hedging, Cathay's fuel bill increased by $HK12.5 billion, or 44 per cent, during the year.

Relative to competitors, even those with the geographical advantage of being based in higher-growth Asian markets, Qantas's underlying earnings fared no worse than the pack in the latter half of 2011 as the high Australian dollar cushioned the impact of high oil prices and with its dominant domestic business offsetting losses in its long-haul division.

European giants Lufthansa and Air France-KLM both posted surprise full-year losses this month and painted a gloomy outlook for the year ahead as the region's economic gloom trickles down to cause weaker demand for travel.

Closer to home, Malaysia Airlines described its position as "in crisis" after a fourth consecutive quarterly loss – a development that came immediately before Qantas ended talks about a new joint-venture airline – while even stalwart Singapore Airlines saw net income plunge 53 per cent in its second quarter.

Analysts expect Singapore's full-year result will be an even steeper 56 per cent drop as premium demand continues to wane across the region.

In a sign of how steep the slowdown is in global trade, Singapore has cut freighter capacity by 20 per cent amid sluggish demand in Europe for Asia's manufactured goods.

Cathay's load factor in its cargo division fell 8.5 percentage points last year as shipments from its two most important markets – Hong Kong and mainland China – weakened "significantly" from April onwards.
"We faced a number of major challenges in 2011 and we are still operating in a very challenging environment, particularly for our cargo business," Cathay chairman Christopher Pratt said.
"2012 is looking even more challenging than 2011 and we are therefore cautious about prospects for this year. We will continue to be vigilant in managing our costs while not compromising the quality of our products and services or our long-term strategic investment in the business."

However, analysts at HSBC are forecasting passenger and cargo traffic will improve in the second half of the year, citing Cathay in particular as a likely beneficiary of heightened US demand for products such as Apple's new iPad that is made in China.

Cathay took delivery of nine wide body aircraft in 2011 and expects to have fitted new business class and premium economy cabins in 87 aircraft by the end of 2013 as it looks to lock in repeat business from passengers prepared to pay more for a high-end product. The airline's continued expansion last year also came at a price, with the average number of sold seats per aircraft dropping 3 percentage points compared with the prior year.

With the debate over the limitations on the Australian flag carrier contained in the Qantas Sale Act heating up amid rival Virgin Australia's corporate restructure, the importance of equity alliances was evident in the Cathay result.

Cathay's 19.5 per cent equity stake in Air China contributed 31 per cent of profit before tax, buoyed by a cargo joint venture between the two which began in May. Air China in turn owns 30 per cent of Cathay.

Australian Financial Review

[ampan]

Owning an airline has never been a legitimate business. It's what the rich do for fun, like owning racehorses or challenging for the Americas Cup.

If Australia (and its little prodigal bastard cousin) wants an airline, taxpayers have to accept the burden.

As for the Irish, they're good at poetry and music and drinking, but they're also extraordinarily thick when it comes to economics, as evidenced by their current situation, as well as the fad-farming debacle they created decades ago, otherwise known as the potatoe famine.

[Dunnocks]

Potatoe.. at least they can spell...:D:D
Turning the economic strangulation of Ireland by the English, which caused the deaths of over a million people into a (bad) joke only shows the paucity of your wit.

[Archer2002]

You have a board Chairman whose only focus would appear to be break the unions at any cost. Then whilst persuing that strategy they cannibalise possibly Australia’s most iconic brand by setting up Jetstar. How could anything go wrong? When will the shareholders will wake up and who will they hold responsible. As I commented yesterday,I can feel a Sol Trujillo moment approaching with the classic “leaving to pursue further opportunities” or less likely “spend more time with his family”.Seriously the Board cannot escape close scrutiny and accountability after this.

[Taildragger67]

The simple answer to turning mainline around is putting 787's on routes instead of the cancer getting 'em.

The simple answer to turning mainline around now is putting 777's on routes instead of waiting for 787s which may turn out to be lemons (if they ever arrive).

[The Green Goblin]

Quote:
The simple answer to turning mainline around is putting 787's on routes instead of the cancer getting 'em.
The simple answer to turning mainline around now is putting 777's on routes instead of waiting for 787s which may turn out to be lemons (if they ever arrive).

The problem is they can't afford to buy them having bet the farm on the whale and the plastic fantastic.

They have also said publicly on numberous occasions that it's not the right aircraft for Qantas (even though darth said publicly it'd be nice to have them circa 2008). They can't be seen to have made a mistake. They are the worlds best airline management team. In fact they are so good, when negotiating with other airlines they are using their 'expertise' and 'systems' as a resource to bid with instead of capital. Good grief. Not even a bankrupt airline would do a deal like that!

Lasty they can't get old of them because there is such a long wait list.

[TIMA9X]

Asia's Budget Airlines Add Long-Haul Flights - Travel News Story - KTVZ Bend (http://www.ktvz.com/travelgetaways/30682706/detail.html)

He did not believe that the lack of service and legroom provided by budget airlines would necessarily be a fatal turn-off for customers facing a 10-hour long-haul flight -- as long as the fares were low enough.


"No entertainment? You can solve it by having your own iPad or PSP. Free food on a flag carrier, or buy it yourself on a low-cost carrier? It's not an issue. Most of us will have a bite to eat at the airport and can purchase something extra on board if necessary," he said. "Besides, in economy class on the flag carriers there's not a lot of leg room to begin with."


Cowen added that low-cost carriers could pack up to 25% extra passenger seats in their aircraft, and also had a "big advantage" in not facing the substantial infrastructure costs borne by the legacy carriers, who were being forced to get into the low-cost sector themselves. "They've realized if they don't, they're going to lose the market anyway," he said.


Cannibalization needn't be a problem, according to Cowen. The success of a budget carrier like Jetstar in operating alongside its full-service counterpart Qantas shows how the two brands could collaborate to serve different segments of the market without poaching each other's customers. "All of us don't drive a Mercedes Benz and all of us don't drive a Volkswagen Golf," he said


Hmmm, we will see I guess...

[V-Jet]

Except VW Golfs and MB are both premium brands. Bad analogy - or a good one. Idiots! Fundamentally all LCC's MUST learn how to charge more for a product or they will fail.

We had a worlds best premium brand that is now at least partly trashed. With J* they are working out how to charge more for the product. By definition they will meet in the middle. Crazy duplication if nothing else...

It is a bit like arguing wars are good for economic development. If that were really the case the US govt would have been busily building aircraft carriers and battle groups since 1945 and sending them out on their maiden voyages to sink them in the Pacific.

[TIMA9X]

What now for our beleaguered roo?

Blame the Indians?

Flacks in flight from Qantas (http://beta.afr.com/p/national/qantas_loses_two_pr_men_yiq6h0IlHbkawcZgSJ0MjK)

Qantas Airways has been rocked by the sudden departures of two senior executives.
The head of government and public affairs Jim Carden and the head of corporate communication Justin Kelly resigned on Tuesday and left their positions immediately.
They reported directly to the group executive of government and corporate affairs, Olivia Wirth, who many say is the closest confidant of chief executive Alan Joyce.
Last night Ms Wirth confirmed Mr Carden and Mr Kelly had left the airline but declined to discuss the circumstances surrounding their departure. She said only that they had “resigned to pursue other interests”.

[maggot]

uh oh. rats deserting the shinking ship :(

[Keg]

They reported directly... Olivia Wirth, who many say is the closest confidant of chief executive Alan Joyce.

Strewth. I thought QF was in dire straits with AJ as the CEO but if that statement is true then it's much, much more serious than I had ever thought possible. :eek:

[MACH082]

Liv has her eyes on the command seat :)

Watch this space!

[blow.n.gasket]

The best analagy of what's been going on at the big Q as I've been told, goes something like what Murdoch did to Ansett. He used the cash flow from Ansett to build his media empire. Little or no money pumped back into the product which eventually caused Ansett to wither and die. Amazing how many of those same managers who engineered this amazing transformation at Ansett are also in charge of Qantas' grand business transformation too.
The same appears to be happening with Qantas. The smartest guys in the room are using Qantas' cashflow to build their Pan Asian strategy through Jetstar, thereby hoping to cash in on the one place in the world where growth is predicted to be greatest. In the process bypassing the Qantas Sale Act and Australias complex and restrictive labour laws.
Will be interesting to see how much longer this house of cards will remain standing.

The future is bright, the future is Absolutely Orange!:uhoh:

[DrPepz]

Back to QF's Asian strategy and how it is supposed to make them lots of money. Asia is touted as this wonderful place with astronomical growth. Growing middle class and what not.

The Asian Growth story is a lovely story to spin to the media, especially if you are a listed stock. My company makes most of its money in the West, but it's not a nice story to tell the media when you appear before them and say "well despite the negative press you read about Italy, the USA and Europe, it generates more profits for us than our Asian operations ever will".

The fact of the matter is, only 20 million Indian nationals have an income of US$2000 or more per month. That's less than 2% of India. 90% of Indonesians haven't stepped onto a plane. The only markets in Asia with a sizeable middle class able to fly (besides Japan and Korea) are SIN and HKG. But SIN and HKG are small with tiny domestic populations. Now how jetstar japan would turn out with 4 shareholders and having to appease all 4 of them.... God only knows. With a small home population of 5 million, SIN handles nearly 50 million pax. How much more could SIN feasibly handle?

Airfares, especially international airfares, out of Australia, are among the highest in the world. This is why SIA and CX focus huge amounts of capacity flying into Australia rather than their own backyards.

The SIA Group with Scoot will fly 5 widebodies a day to Sydney, including 2 A380s, 1 773, 1 A330 and 1 772ER. That's more capacity than SIA has to most cities in South East Asia, except Jakarta.

SIA Group has more capacity to Sydney than Bangkok. More capacity to Brisbane than Penang. More capacity to Perth than Guangzhou, more capacity to Adelaide than Surabaya (which is the second largest city in "booming" Indonesia) and almost more capacity to Melbourne than Manila.

SIA would happily divert their widebody aircraft to Sydney and Melbourne, and let Jetstar/Tiger fight over serving Ho Chi Minh City 4 times a day at their $90 return fares. Or KUL at their usual $0 base return fares, and Manila with fares at $100 return or less sometimes.

The 777s and A330s better serve SIA to and from Australia, where they can extract some of the highest yields known in the industry.

Qantas happily withdraws from its home market and wants to enter routes such as SIN-KUL, SIN-MNL and SIN-SGN to earn $60 return from pax, whereas SQ uses their aircraft to SYD and extracts $12,000 return fares in First Class from Sydney onwards to Europe and limits their exposure in South East Asia to a few trunk routes, relegating most of the region to Silk Air.

Who's the winner here?

[gobbledock]

Perhaps Frau Wirthless, as the dominant alpha male, decided it was time to exercise that option?
Maybe her underlings had criticized her moustache or sideburns?
Or is it a cost cutting exercise - punt two PR clowns and save half a million per year and have a Nupty aviation reporter from WA do the PR almost for free!

As for her being da little fella's confidante I can only imagine (and it's not pretty) what he would be confiding in her about!!!

[ejectx3]

Olivia Wirth, who many say is the closest confidant of chief executive Alan Joyce.Dear God we're all completely screwed.
http://resources0.news.com.au/images/2010/11/16/1225954/100468-qantas-spokeswoman-olivia-wirth.jpg

[TIMA9X]

NL45DvcJ6Gk

Pretty good too! the question is do they mean it? It's the way it should be... considering the huge investment they have in you, Qantas pilots have always been good team players the same can be said for the engineers, cabin & ground crews..

The last ten years, somehow, it all got lost.... so sad...

[ejectx3]

Suddenly we matter? Forgive the cynic in me for wondering what the ulterior motive is. Blatant ripoff of competitors adds for starters.

[mcgrath50]

Actions speak louder than words, and although that series of ads are a great set of words, I doubt whether the actions we all are hoping for will follow up!

[DirectAnywhere]

Does anyone seriously believe that little video makes any difference to management's plans to 'transform' the international business?

All Australian based staff are too expensive and will see their jobs outsourced, or eliminated and later re-established overseas to avoid the use of the word 'offshoring' wherever possible.

A 3 minute video won't change that. Stick that up your engagement survey.

[ejectx3]

Notice the official YouTube release has comments disabled ? Ha ha, seems they're gun shy after the twitter fail.

[maggotdriver]

I don't believe it, does someone finally care? Brought a tear to me eye:{

[ejectx3]

Qantas cares.... About money

[StallBoy]

Why is Olivia Wirth leaving she would be close to being the next one in line for the CEO's position surely???????:D:D
With a Mix of A380's and B787's Qantas must be in the box seat for international expansion. Using 787's on long haul from Asia to Heathrow or anywhere else in Europe makes the policy of bigger planes with more seats and lower operating costs redundant. If this is the new policy then full 737's flying to London from Australia would be the way to go!!!!!!:ok:
Just another QANTAS inconsistency and why the airline will go broke in time.:(

[DrPepz]

Haha if Qantas cared about making money they would send their planes to where it actually does make them money. They're doing the exact opposite though.

[ejectx3]

Sorry I meant making money for the upper echelons.

[TIMA9X]

Dr Pepz, says in all here, Airfares, especially international airfares, out of Australia, are among the highest in the world. This is why SIA and CX focus huge amounts of capacity flying into Australia rather than their own backyards.

The SIA Group with Scoot will fly 5 widebodies a day to Sydney, including 2 A380s, 1 773, 1 A330 and 1 772ER. That's more capacity than SIA has to most cities in South East Asia, except Jakarta.

SIA Group has more capacity to Sydney than Bangkok. More capacity to Brisbane than Penang. More capacity to Perth than Guangzhou, more capacity to Adelaide than Surabaya (which is the second largest city in "booming" Indonesia) and almost more capacity to Melbourne than Manila.

SIA would happily divert their widebody aircraft to Sydney and Melbourne, and let Jetstar/Tiger fight over serving Ho Chi Minh City 4 times a day at their $90 return fares. Or KUL at their usual $0 base return fares, and Manila with fares at $100 return or less sometimes.

The 777s and A330s better serve SIA to and from Australia, where they can extract some of the highest yields known in the industry.

Qantas happily withdraws from its home market and wants to enter routes such as SIN-KUL, SIN-MNL and SIN-SGN to earn $60 return from pax, whereas SQ uses their aircraft to SYD and extracts $12,000 return fares in First Class from Sydney onwards to Europe and limits their exposure in South East Asia to a few trunk routes, relegating most of the region to Silk Air.

Who's the winner here? Well, this folks is what we are up against...the guys running the show @ Q group are more interested in flying between SIN -SGN for 60 bucks a pax, rather than flying Australians to Europe one stop (choice major cities other than LHR & FRA) seamless .... go figure...:ugh:

[Sunfish]

Tima9x:

Well, this folks is what we are up against...the guys running the show @ Q group are more interested in flying between SIN -SGN for 60 bucks a pax, rather than flying Australians to Europe one stop (choice major cities other than LHR & FRA) seamless .... go figure..

Reminds me of the old joke about the Jewish shop owner who bought stuff for $1.00 each and sold it for 99 cents.

What was the secret of his successs? Volume!

[ejectx3]

Um.......I thought .... Ah forget it

[Jetsbest]

I loved the "Secure Our Flying" lanyards worn by many of the people in the video. Well done those folks! :ok:

[TIMA9X]

Cookies must be enabled | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/google-apple-and-ikea-among-most-trusted-brands-while-qantas-is-on-the-nose/story-fn7j19iv-1226310510471)

AUSTRALIANS place more trust in brands like Google, Apple and Ikea, while former leaders like Qantas are losing credibility.

Many of Australia’s top brands are on the decline in consumers’ minds, with one in five plainly heading the wrong way, according to the latest Brand Asset Valuator (BAV) report.


''The bar for leadership has risen and the need for innovation is too often sacrificed in the pressured quest for sales,” BAV director Keith Newton said.
''Trust in brands has declined 22 per cent in the last two years with financial services, insurance, retailers and utilities bearing the brunt of consumer anger in response to constant price hikes, confusing offers and lack of customer service.''


Newton believes many brands are failing to protect themselves from ''own brand'' threats as leading companies branch out into other markets.
“The leading supermarkets are strong brands, and so are their better ''own label'' offerings,’’ Newton said.


''Once their product marketing improves, the brands that have failed to build brand strength will really feel the heat, and those who play close to a commodity game will be hurt even more by the home brand price offerings.’’
PayPal, Youtube and Subway are some of the brands that Australians believe have a strong future while Dairy Farmers, OPSM and Kodak have all seen a consistent decline in consumer trust over the past five years.
Australia’s top 12 brands of the future:


Google
Apple
Ikea
PayPal
Youtube
Microsoft
Windows 7
eBay.com
Wii
Dyson
Vegemite
Subway

Some of the bigger brands that have seen a consistent decline in trust over the last five years:


Qantas
Dairy Farmers
Kodak
OPSM
Mr Sheen
Dymocks
Levi's
Meadow Lea

[ejectx3]

Well done Geoff and Alan.... Well done. <clap> <clap>

[gobbledock]

I can hear the sounds of the final nails being hammered into the QF coffin as we speak.
Tick tock.

[Al E. Vator]

...and yet these genius' receive massive pay increases, share portfolios and bonuses.

Increasingly I feel as though the world has gone completely mad.