Same pilot at controls of Both Tiger safety breach flights

[Sunfish]

FWIW, can one draw from this the conclusion that Tigers alleged safety breaches are systematic and not "isolated incidents" caused by "rogue pilots"?


THE two Tiger Airways flights that last month breached height safety limits, triggering the grounding of the airline until August 1, were piloted by the same captain.

But aviation sources told The Sunday Age that the pilot had not been given any retraining after the first incident at Melbourne Airport on June 7, before he again made an unsafe low approach to Avalon Airport on June 30.

Read more: Same pilot at controls of Tiger safety breach flights (http://www.theage.com.au/national/same-pilot-at-controls-of-tiger-safety-breach-flights-20110709-1h807.html#ixzz1ReQ3XcyV)



Same pilot at controls of Tiger safety breach flights (http://www.theage.com.au/national/same-pilot-at-controls-of-tiger-safety-breach-flights-20110709-1h807.html)

[Stiff Under Carriage]

Interesting point to note is that is was the Captain! Seemingly not inexperienced.

[Bone MAJ]

Can anyone sense a scape goat being offered to the altar for slaughter?

[DutchRoll]

No doubt Tiger would love to paint it as the actions of an isolated individual and "not their fault" but I think pretty much anyone (except Tiger management) can see it goes much deeper than that.

[KRUSTY 34]

"...the Captain! Seemingly not inexperienced."

A point that has been made numerous times on these pages SUC, and begs the question, where was the F/O in all of this?

The proponents for low time pilots in the flightdeck (not necessarily saying you are one) point to the fact that experienced pilots also make mistakes and even commit violations. It's the overall experience, whereforall, and mutual support that often prevents the holes from lining up.

It's these outcomes we rarely hear about.

[Capt Claret]

Have a look at the electronic slope indication systems for RW36 @ YMAV. (Ball notes 2 & 3 on Jeppesen charts).

Then have a think of how "on slope" indications of VASIS differ from PAPI & vice versa.

Then have a think of what you would do if you thought you had the PAPI, and despite in fact being on slope, you saw four white lights.

[joblogs]

For info the capt has a wealth of experience on wide body a/c with a renound international carrier. It is by no means his fault the airline was grounded, it was just the final excuse for casa to get rid of the problem.
So now hopefully for all it is up and up for airline and mainly there employees.

[dodgybrothers]

Regardless of wether this guy was at the controls or not, I cannot believe that it has been leaked to the media. Its a disgrace that the only two parties that could have known, one or both has leaked them to the media.

Had a pilot leaked something about a company to the media all hell would have broken loose. Disgraceful, shamefull act of a company willing to do anything to divert attention.

[joblogs]

dodybrothers l totally agree..

[Artificial Horizon]

A total disgrace that this was released to the media. It actually makes no difference anyway. They weren't grounded because of these two incidents, they were grounded for failures to address safety concerns. The statement above says it all, that after the first incident the pilot concerned didn't receive any further 'training' before the second occurance. Even if management had bought the crew to an adhoc sim session for something just to go over what had happened CASA no doubt would have been understanding. Not all incidents require a revisit to the sim, but I would think anything that resulted in an ATSB investigation would warrant some re-training (not checking). Tiger shot themselves in the foot with this one when the second incident happened and CASA found out that no sort of action was taken after the first event. Not the pilots fault.

[Stiff Under Carriage]

Source: The Daily Telegraph

Same Tiger pilot had control of planes in safety scares that led to grounding (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/same-tiger-pilot-had-control-of-planes-in-safety-scares-that-led-to-grounding/story-e6freuy9-1226091445154)

THE same pilot was at the controls during the two recent safety scares that led to the grounding of Tiger Airways.

The Australian pilot, understood to be based at Avalon, was flying a Tiger Airbus aircraft on both occasions when it flew too low during landing approaches at Avalon and Melbourne.

The two safety breaches were the final straw for the Civil Aviation Safety Authority, which suspended Tiger's licence to fly in Australia due to safety concerns.

Sources close to the investigations into the incidents told The Sunday Telegraph the captain was an experienced pilot who had flown Airbus A340s for Emirates before joining Tiger 18 months ago.

Two sources confirmed he was in charge when the aircraft breached minimum altitude requirements on June 7 and 30.

CASA, which had previously ordered Tiger to demonstrate why its operations certificate should not be revoked, reacted swiftly after the second low-flying breach, immediately grounding the low-cost carrier. The earliest the airline can fly is August 1, which will cost the company an estimated $18 million.


RELATED COVERAGE
Flight: Tiger pilots given wrong flight information
Cut-price carrier: Public trust in Tiger eroding - pilots
Tiger passengers caught out

Australian Federation of Air Pilots industrial relations manager Lawrie Cox defended the pilot, but conceded "human error" in the cockpit had played a role in the breaches.

"They (CASA) are claiming that it (the low-flying incidents) was the straw that broke the camel's back, but both of the incidents have been investigated and part of the investigation process has also been about the safety management processes at Tiger," he said.

"The two incidents have been used as part of the excuse for the grounding. It's our view that the Tiger pilot group is very experienced."

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau last week released an interim report into the earlier incident at Tullamarine. It blamed conflicting navigation information for cockpit confusion that led to the jet dipping to 2000ft in a minimum 2500ft zone over Epping in Melbourne's east.

Mr Cox said Tiger suspended the pilots from flying for two days while it launched an internal investigation.

Three weeks later, the same captain was flying a different A320 when it dropped to 900ft below the 2500ft limit on approach to Avalon Airport.

"At no stage was there any risk of crash or hitting terrain or anything associated with that," Mr Cox said.

Tiger refused to comment.



Krusty, no I'm not an FO. But if you read the article is clearly describes the Captain as quite experienced. Yes you are correct where was the FO? We are assuming here he has done nothing to prevent it? Maybe he was the cause for the A320 to in fact return to the correct level in the first place. You guys are too quick to suggest it's the FO's fault. The Captain is responsible for the safe conduct of flight, and the FO is responsible for assisting in this. So maybe the FO did his job correctly albeit a touch late, maybe he/she prevented a tragic accident? In the end something caused this and it needs to be address, be it training, charts errors or misunderstanding or be it A320 SoP's. There are definitely some questionable SoP's with which Airbus require the way the aircraft to be operated.

joblogs and dodgybrothers, both very true, this should never have been leaked.

[TIMA9X]

Can anyone sense a scape goat being offered to the altar for slaughter? Yes, and the Australian media must learn to ask the right questions on this issue FFS....:ugh:

The whole Tiger debacle was caused by "pig headed Ryanair styled management" (run by an ex BMI LCC B grade team) trying to run a "European LCC model" in a market with a tiny population and we can still count the fleet on our hands. (still couldn't get it together.)

I feel for this pilot, and see this media attention focused on him/her as personal bordering on a libel case against whoever fed this story to the media.
It's not right, but sadly par for the course these days. If we were in England imagine what the now defunct News of the World would have hacked up!
The quality of our media is heading in the same direction.

Now I need to go find my dummy. :\

[Icarus2001]

Its a disgrace that the only two parties that could have known, one or both has leaked them to the media.

I totally agree with your sentiments but it is possible that pretty much the whole pilot group (100?) knew the identity of the crews involved. All it takes is loose lips and the name is out. Has happened before with paxing crew chatting with media sitting behind them or at a coffee shop etc. I would be surprised if CASA would let information out especially.

So maybe the FO did his job correctly albeit a touch late, maybe he/she prevented a tragic accident? Certainly not at Tullamarine as the aircraft only climbed back to 2500' after ATC instructed the crew to do so.
In the Avalon incident who knows but if the aircraft was too low then the FO was not effective in preventing this and also did not keep ATC in the loop as to their intentions.

So if it was the same Captain was it the same FO? If not then that means two FOs possibly need some CRM assertiveness training. Or alternatively if they believed being that low was okay then perhaps they need some remedial sim work?

[Joker89]

Surely the pilot who briefed the approach is supposed to check the box is coded correctly. Seems this was missed by both of them. **** in **** out.

[Fondair]

I hope it isnt the Irish bloke. I love hearing him coming in and out of Av.

[dodgybrothers]

dont be surprised about casa icarus, something about sink ships over there. As for the pilot group, it would be highly unlikely that any newspaper would publish any unsubstantiated rumour. i.e without confirmation from one of the involved parties, not some ticked off pilot.

Either way, extremely poor form.

[Zephyrus]

Joker89 : Surely the pilot who briefed the approach is supposed to check the box is coded correctly. Seems this was missed by both of them. **** in **** out.

So true and isn't the guy sitting next to you meant to check the box during the approach briefing...

[kellykelpie]

For once on this threat it is great to see pilots sticking together instead of blaming the Captain involved.

Agree with the sentiment that there seems to be a systemic problem here.

Hopefully this can be resolved quickly for staff and customers alike.

[Mr.Buzzy]

I'm sorry but I don't understand why everyone is being so
defensive of this so called "'media leak" The captain wasn't named and rightly so: who cares anyway?
The fact remains that CASA have had a gripe not with individuals but with entire levels of management or lack thereof. It was this layer of management, (read, layer of safety) that was missing (and requested to be fixed) that lead to MULTIPLE failures.
The public have a right to know why this company were
grounded.
CASA 40....Tiger love.

Bbbbzbzbzbzbzbzznz bbbbZzz

[denabol]

There was a reference to it being the same Captain in Plane Talking days ago now, so it confirms a suspicion I've had for a while now that the general media is reading Sandilands to find out what he is hearing.

He also mentioned this on a radio broadcast the other day, it had to be a Sydney or Canberra station for me to hear it.

On another of my media watches I saw the Alan Kohler interview of Joyce on Inside Business this morning and it seemed to me that he was backing off a bit when it comes to the August 24th restructuring. Now he is talking about a review. It was a piss weak interview but I think Joyce looked a lot less sure of himself than he did on the ABC 24 broadcast of the press club speech he gave a few weeks ago.

[Capn Bloggs]

Have a look at the electronic slope indication systems for RW36 @ YMAV. (Ball notes 2 & 3 on Jeppesen charts).
A T-VASI and a selectable PAPI on the same runway. Why?

[yowieII]

Buzzy,
The captain WAS named in todays WA paper, I hope he gets the dogs out...

[Chronic Snoozer]

Utterly disgraceful how this has been handled by CASA and Tiger. Hung out to dry.

[Stan van de Wiel]

quote
Its a disgrace that the only two parties that could have known, one or both has leaked them to the media.

The same two parties were involved in the Show Cause process, CASA at the Senate Estimates hearing categorically denied any one of their team talking to the media. The S.S. had a ring around and asked each one personally. So it must have been Tiger for all that extra free publicity?

Wake up Australia, QF is again struggling as it was in the Ansett episode, any commonalities?

[Worrals in the wilds]

Disclosing information to the media or any unauthorized person is an offense for Commonwealth Officers and carries a maximum penalty of two years imprisonment (Crimes Act 1914 s70). If anyone from CASA spilled the beans they'll be hunted down. I'd think that if they seriously suspected a leak it would have been bigger than a ring around, more like an email scanning, phone record reading, intimidating-interviews-for-all extravaganza.

Never say never, but I'd be surprised if any of their people took the risk for what's basically a tabloid tidbit. Tiger on the other hand; what have they got to lose by pointing the finger at one individual and yelling 'it was him what done it, everything else is peachy!' Not making accusations, just asking the question.

All the best to the pilot. With a few notable exceptions, Media suck.:yuk:

[27/09]

A T-VASI and a selectable PAPI on the same runway. Why?

Talk about Swiss cheese!!!!!!

[maggot]

If anyone from CASA spilled the beans they'll be hunted down. I'd think that it would have been bigger than a ring around, more like an email scanning, phone record reading, intimidating-interviews-for-all extravaganza.

you talking about CASA? as in our CASA?! you're dreamin

[gobbledock]

Bit tricky this one. It is unlikely that any Tiger employee, unless they are a sociopath or psychopathic would intentionally throw such a massive sh*t grenade. I also personally know former and current Fort Fumble inspectors and I doubt they would risk an all expense paid holiday with her majesty over a bit of idol gossip.
The reality is however that there are few well kept secrets in aviation and anything of relevance always tends to leak out one way or the other.

The ATSB investigation will no doubt shed more light on the issue and I certainly hope that errors or violations are taken into account when determining the outcome.

[mister hilter]

Its a disgrace that the only two parties that could have known

I feel for this pilot, but believe you guys are taking a simplistic view if you think only two parties could've leaked his name.

Paxing crew, operating cabin crew, his f/o, gnd ops crew, company managment - and it needn't have been done maliciously by any of them. Overheard having a chat over coffee in the smoko room, or a beer after work. Well you would all know it's a relatively small industry and everybody knows someone who knows someone...

Hope it works out all right for him and he's not 'duty scapegoat'.

[Stan van de Wiel]

Disclosing information to the media or any unauthorized person is an offense for Commonwealth Officers and carries a maximum penalty of two years imprisonment (Crimes Act 1914 s70). If anyone from CASA spilled the beans they'll be hunted down. I'd think that if they seriously suspected a leak it would have been bigger than a ring around, more like an email scanning, phone record reading, intimidating-interviews-for-all extravaganza.[/COLOR]

Suggest you check McCormick's reply to the Senate to get an indication of the Thoroughness of the internal check! this is CASA we are talking about.

[amos2]

...you're talking rubbish, aiglet!

[aroa]

Anyone from CASA doing criminal/evil things... being hunted down?
Gawd.. I nearly fell off my chair..!
aiglet is right. CASA looks after its own... as I know.

Leak? From the media/corporate comunications office to get the ball rolling, would be my guess.

Everyone in the Oz aviation industry should know by now that with CASA...
ANYTHING goes.