QF to EK on LWOP

[Tempo]

Ok boys and girls....who is jumping ship to EK on LWOP?? Hot rumor it's been agreed upon by QF and EK. 3 years. Interesting.

[SkyScanner]

FSO apparently coming out this arvo

[mohikan]

The companies way of avoiding redundancy payments.

Guys & Girls go on LWOP, in the meantime QF Int gets moved to Sin. Therefore no positions to comeback to at the end of the LWOP.

Best option will then be to resign and stay at EK.

[SkyScanner]

LWOP FSO released... FO only, 3 years. Watch the rush.....

[waren9]

Mohikans on to it.

Be interesting to see if that LWOP offer gaurantees fleet, base, pay, seniority and return date.

[TineeTim]

I'm going. Well, I'm at least going to have a look.

There will be no guarantees. You'll fit back in wherever your seniority allows. Could be same fleet, could be different. Some (many) will not come back.

[Shark Patrol]

The leprechaun and his mates helping a competitor to make more money!

Absolute stroke of genius!!!!

[Angle of Attack]

Quite ironic now a whole bunch of QF pilots will crew the next wave of increased capacity into Australia by Emirates. While QF concentrates on having an offshore base to "compete." QF International is going to be eaten alive the next few years, and the only last thing going for it was it was an Australian Airline. I just cannot see how its going to survive, and I cant think of any rational idea why they are tunnel visioned on this labour cost issue... The cost of crewing these aircraft is hardly different from all the Asian competitors (major ones anyway) yet they are making record profits, its the contraction of routes thats killing the roo, and I dont think Jetstar is going to be the golden cash cow especially when the oil price increases... oh well I obviously think too much... Joyce will be gone once the last breath is taken by QF.

[qfpaypacket]

If there was any doubt left, this definitely clears it up...... This is management clearly telling us there is no career left for us at Qantas mainline. Act accordingly..................

[Angle of Attack]

LR3

I won't give you any flak, obviously there are some issues at EK and its good you raised that point. I heard the redundancy conditions at QF are pretty good so I would rather get made redundant then go work somewhere else taking the money and run!

[virginexcess]

I doubt there will be no hard feelings.

Much like there were no hard feelings when the guys took the jobs with jetstar that undermined QF and ultimately caused the situation we now see.

Hopefully, a few guys from QF will go, and that will finally put an end to the constant carry on about anyone having the high moral ground in any of this. Ultimately we all have to do what is best for us individually.

Collectively, however, we can do what is best for us all.

Tough decisions for some, easy for others. Good luck either way.:ok:

[Capt Kremin]

LR3, if the situation was reversed, would you not come to QF?

[TineeTim]

Couple of points:

1. Some of us were going to come anyway.

2. If accepted, we will join under the same conditions as anyone else. Had Jet* guys demanded mainline conditions to fly basically the same A/C, we would be in a very different situation.

3. If EK treats us poorly, they KNOW we will leave in three years. Other joiners are more tied to the place. We are not the answer to their problem.

[cart_elevator]

I am sorry,this doesnt make alot of sense to me? I am not a pilot,but wouldnt this be like QF 'Lending' Cabin Crew to Virgin Australia for 3 years?? Getting the benefit of our experience, training, standards etc. I could see a benefit from doing it with an airline we are in a formal/financial partnership with,but the enemy no. 1 as QF has always said EK is :confused:

I just don't get it,again I am not a pilot, but it seems QF are actively assisting the competition take over through this move :confused:

Just curious is all :O

[Stalins ugly Brother]

Wouldn't this deal be like the Brisbane Broncos lending there coach to St George to win a premiership???? As if you would do something like that! :(

[atyourcervix73]

With respect to coming to EK, you guys are either a little mis-informed or perhaps a bit deluded.

TineeTim 3. If EK treats us poorly, they KNOW we will leave in three years. Other joiners are more tied to the place. We are not the answer to their problem.

Your comments would APPEAR to imply that your presence is very much in the vein of EK needing you more than you need EK, in point of fact this might presently be correct, but don't make the mistake of thinking that this gives you anything other than a smile on your face. EK will drop you quicker than a bacon sandwhich during ramadan if they decide to, no ifs, no buts, no AFAP and no support from your fellow Ozzies either.

[Taildragger67]

Cart Elevator,

See Mohikan's post (#3) above.

[mohikan]

So the exodus from QF mainline has begun.

Joyce of course, does not want to observe the redundancy clauses in the award to get rid of his 'overpaid pollution'

I note 'the nudist' was the point of contact at the bottom of the FSO. You can bet your left knacker he has been directed from very high up to develop and run with this option.

Note he was sprung recently having meetings with reps from PARC also.

To those who are thinking of going consider this: This won't be the last 'deal' on offer to get rid of you.

I for one will wait for a package, and probably go to the ME then anyhow.

[Shark Patrol]

So Joyce avoids the redundancy provisions of the LH contract, lowers the wages bill (collects a bonus due increased profit), loses market share to EK (who are using QF LWOP pilots) and therefore justifies moving mainline offshore!

I just cannot believe the bastardry of these pr*cks (for want of a much worse word) that are professing to MANAGE our airline!!!!!!!!

[DirectAnywhere]

Ben's take on the news:

Qantas giving pilots leave to go fly for Emirates | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/07/08/qantas-tells-120-pilots-they-can-go-fly-for-emirates/#comments)

I'll take a package too. Alan, at least have the guts to slash my throat rather than expect me to do it for you.

[Sonny Hammond]

If you take the LWO and then want to come back to QF and you would have been made redundant so there is no job for you then what happens?

No job = redundancy payout upon return?

[Mstr Caution]

So lets this straight.

It's ok to take LWOP to go to EK as an FO. Massive expansion at EK so maybe get a command during that three year period. Then return to QF, all the while the company is gifting FO's to EK with thousands of hours experience.

Meanwhile, if you transfer to J* & subsequantly take a Command, you forfeit the right of return to Qantas.

J* recruiting 200 hour low time FO's, whilst EK take the experienced ones.!

This industry has gone to the dogs!

[Quill Shaft]

If you take the LWO and then want to come back to QF and you would have been made redundant so there is no job for you then what happens?

No job = redundancy payout upon return?


It would probably depend on what the AIPA negotiate with QF, but as I understand it if you go on LWOP and there is no job for you when you get back, you are not automatically entitled to a redundancy package.

[rmcdonal]

3. If EK treats us poorly, they KNOW we will leave in three years. Other joiners are more tied to the place. We are not the answer to their problem.
8th Jul 2011 18:28
And that right there is the problem. If you don't go then EK has to raise the conditions to keep and attract pilots, with you they don't because they know you are leaving in 3 years. You don't see it as your issue buts that's because you are going to be the problem. By helping to keep EKs crewing costs down, you increase the issue of operating costs in Australia trying to compete with EK. After 3 years you go home to find that you don't have a job, or that your conditions are crap all because the airline has had to compete with EK at there lower rate.
I have no dramas with an LOA to go and try something else out for a while, or to help start up an airline in a part of the world with little or no talent, however a mass LOA like this just screws the industry for the rest of us, and ultimately for you.

[1a sound asleep]

AJ - So why are we paying all the pilots such high wages. They are just bus drivers and computer operators. We can get away with far lower costs

BOARD - Lower costs sound good but what about our unblemished safety record. We need to have the best pilots

AJ - We have invested billions of dollars in new technology. These planes fly themselves with all the new computers and they have 3 back up systems. All the profitable airlines are doing it. Do you want to make profits?

BOARD - Ok. Then go away and do it. WE have trust in your decisions but how are you going to get rid of all the pilots earning huge money?

AJ - I will sell them to somebody else. I have it all worked out

[Mstr Caution]

Quill,

I'd have to investigate it further.

But I believe they will take you back at the end of the LWOP.

If however, things turn pear shaped & you want to come back earlier ie: after 6 months of a 3 year LWOP. They are under no obligation to take you back until the 3 years have elapsed & you can't seek a redundancy payout at that earlier time.

So if it doesnt work out, your effectively shut out for the three years.

[clear to land]

Reference Tims Point 2:
You ARE NOT on the same conditions as EK Pilots as the EK Pilot had to RESIGN from their previous employer. Anyone who comes is helping EK to AVOID raising T & C's due to helping fix the pilot recruitment shortage-which is biting now. Also, anyone who thinks they will get a Command within 3 years is seriously deluded. Enjoy your Sub Continent night turns boys (and girls) :E

[Sonny Hammond]

Rmcdonal,

You right. Absolutely correct.

So, 100 pilots from QF don't go so as to maintain the high moral road.

Is that going to change anything in the 'big picture' of this whole situation?

I seriously doubt it but you are completely correct in your assertion.

So, do the QF guys facing a bleak future after 10 yrs of being given the pointy end of the pineapple, ignore this opportunity to their personal loss so as to protect the local airline industry?

Interesting dilemma but I know where my money is going...

[Angle of Attack]

Still reckon its better to force them to make you redundant, take your money then go and work for another mob, nice cash bonus year! ;)

[Shark Patrol]

Interesting (sad?) that after so many years of ex-EK pilots coming back to Australia to screw this country's T&Cs that now the situation may be about to reverse itself!

[piston broke again]

Amazing all this comes out on a Friday afternoon so it can't get picked up/analysed by mainstream media. Joyce had been under his rock all week and comes out at beer o'clock on a Friday.

[Jackneville]

LWOP is meaningless if there is no mainline to return to. I fear that the time-line for mainline's demise has just been defined and it is less than three years. F#&K !

[Beg Tibs]

I did try to formulate an opinion then I went blank. Strange times - might I ask what the majority of current Emirates drivers think of this ?

[Wizofoz]

Can anyone comment on the tax implications of this? EK money is OK tax free, but can someone on a three year LWOP be considered non-resident for tax purposes?

[SOPS]

Well for those that do come here..welcome...but please dont sit next to me and say "Thats how we do it in Qantas"....we are in Emirates now, and you have taken on ALL that involves, and believe me, it involves a lot...and remember there is no AIPA here to help you out:O

[Shot Nancy]

Massive expansion at EK so maybe get a command during that three year period.
Not while on LWOP from another airline you won't.

but can someone on a three year LWOP be considered non-resident for tax purposes?
I am no expert but is your intention to return to OZ?

Caveat emptor.

[Wizofoz]

I am no expert but is your intention to return to OZ?

Caveat emptor.

The question wasn't for myself, Nancy, I'm one of the guys who will be training our Big White Rat visitors!!

[Tempo]

QF lwop is having your cake and eating it too. I agree with LR3 completely.
If you are unhappy with quaintass then quit and by all means come on over to EK. Otherwise you are screwing your fellow pilots in Dubai and in oz.
You will not get your command in 3 years. No way hose'

Mate are you serious?. So are you telling me that if you were a Qantas pilot considering EK you wouldn't take LWOP instead of resigning???? Before selling everything, uprooting the family and committing to a life overseas for 20 years you had a free shot for 3 years to see whether the life in Dubai was going to work.

I will take no as not a serious response.

BTW, the guys and girls that go will probably at some stage read the EK contract which clearly states that 36 months is required in the company before an upgrade.

[halas]

Name two EK drivers who have returned to Australia "to screw this country's T&Cs"

I think you will find these were well and truly established before they returned to Oz.

There is no reversal of condition deterioration.

NZ have had this contract in place for the last three or so years. Some have gone back. Others have stayed. All the guys l flew with from the NZ contract - Top blokes and wish you all the best!

If anyone thinks that <120 candidates on a temporary contract is going to have any significant change on T&C at EK is dreaming. With more than 700 required in the next 12 months and more than 2700 already on the list, the reasoning does not stand.

Look forward to flying with any willing QF FO.

halas

[atyourcervix73]

What Halas said.

Guys wanting to come here on LWOP need to realize a few things about this place.

1. QF it certainly is not, not in terms of the labour relations environment, nor the route structure.
2. Get used to covering your arse, everyone looks after number 1, there is no collective will here.
3. Get used to flying with a multitude of nationalities, many of whom will have less than positive thoughts about flying with Ozmates/QF guys.
4. Get used to being able to only get one thing done per day, this place is run via the Phillipines and the subcontinent mindset.
5. Get used to the rightseat, a command wont come up for at least 5 years at the present rate of expansion.

Lastly, get used to driving to Barracuda :E

[TineeTim]

I think there's a bit of hysteria here. Some numbers:
There are about 120 767 F/Os and about 220 737 F/Os. Realistically, these are the only guys who will consider this offer in any great percentage. A few 330 or 747 guys might think about it, but not many. So, call it 400 total guys who will think about it (I've estimated all these numbers but they're pretty close). Make it 500 just for arguments sake. I'll eat my hat if 100 go. I'll be extremely surprised if 50 go. 25? Maybe. Again, make it 50 for the argument. If those 50 don't come, will you get a big payrise this year? Will it change the $ Billion EK will make?

As to the comment about lowering world-wide wages and causing QF to then lower conditions to compete or go out of business, are you serious? Hyperbole anyone?

Some have said it's OK to come if you resign but not OK on LWOP. Why? What's the difference? We'll be putting our toe in the water to see how hot it is. If it's not too hot, we'll stay. If it's too cold at home, we'll stay. I still submit that a guy on LWOP, who can leave if he's not happy, is less risk to T&C than a guy who resigns and puts on the sand handcuffs and thus can't realistically leave no matter what happens to T&C.

'That's not the way we do it in QF'. I reckon the most likely comment you will hear is: 'That's how you do it? F**k me. Why the hell didn't we do it that way in QF?'
:\:\:\

[standard]

I think some of you need to relax. How niave do you think the QF guys are.

No sh*t it's not Qantas, thanks Captain obvious!, Have you worked for Qantas and know what it is like?

I don't think that there would be 1 guy or girl that thought or think they would get a command in 3 years.

2. Get used to covering your arse, everyone looks after number 1, there is no collective will here.

So you are used to being screwed?

I am sure that you won't be told "this is how we do it a Qantas", And if that is you biggest worry, then you have nothing to worry about. So what if you hear a few War stories about how another Airline does it, or screws their pilots. I am sure the Qf guys are just as interested of your story.

What I can promise you, as I know a lot of the guys who are interested is that you will have a great time with anyone of them, and will find yourself definitley not drinking alone!

Also if anyone is going to win out of this it's the EK guys, more F/Os means more commands, more quickly for you guys!.

Look at the end of the day it's never a perfect situation, I would consider this to be very minor, it could be a lot worse, they could be opening a base here in Australia or elsewhere!, after all it is their train set and they will get pilots any way they can.

[Stalins ugly Brother]

That's not the way we do it in QF'. I reckon the most likely comment you will hear is: 'That's how you do it? F**k me. Why the hell didn't we do it that way in QF?

This comment you will find will be the more likely!

Accurate post TineeTim. Qf guys are not going to pollute(thanks AJ) the EK culture and a handful of guys certainly are not going to fix the problem of finding 700+ pilots.

[Keg]

Those awaiting redundancy or a package in QF may be surprised. At the moment our award goes with 'last on, first off' and the only thing needed is six months notice. Any package is going to be 6 months at S/O pay because that's what you'll be when they try to get rid of you.

Maybe AIPA can negotiate something better into EBA8, maybe they can't. Either way, QF are going to lose some of their good operators to a competitor. :ugh:

[6100]

I think the only real definite i can take from this discussion is that we have finally put to bed the myth that Australian pilots will ever stand together to improve the industry. Not that there was ever any serious doubt.

It is an interesting aspect of the human condition how we can reverse engineer our morality to justify decisions we know will be controversial, but ones that we are going to make nontheless.

I wonder what QF pilots would be saying if they were staring down the barrell of a payrise due to lack of supply, only to find the government had approved a few hundred 457 visas to help QF through a difficult time.

I agree that a few QF drivers going to EK wont make a difference, but combine that with a few NZ guys a few years back, and who knows what else, then a little bit here and a little bit there contributes to relieving upward pressure on salaries.

One thing i would be concerned about is that if QF drivers do go in any numbers, thus arguably undermining EK drivers position to a small degree, then the gloves will come completely off if and when AJ decides to rebuild mainline in the J* image and starts looking for direct entry A380/787/330 pilots based in Australia on a crap contract.

I think sombody said it earlier, but this is a game changer, and has probably put a timeframe on the demise of mainline as it currently exists.

[Keg]

The parallels are not consistent. Are the QF guys going to EK being paid less than any other EK driver (or any other pilot in Dubai)? No?

457 visas were being used here to pay pilots less than what was on offer at QF. They being offered for J* were paid a contract that had lesser terms and conditions than those on the J* EBA.

So by all means consider this the 'death' of mainline- I tend to agree- but to consider this as QF drivers 'undermining' EK terms and conditions is a distortion of significant proportions.

[Stalins ugly Brother]

Keg, redundancies wont be offered, it goes against Managements spin that no Qantas pilot has been made redundant since blah blah.
How can they justify redundancies when other parts of the Qantas group are desperate for pilots? You would think that any junior crew made redundant would have a good argument in front of FWA.

[mcgrath50]

Who would want to work elsewhere in the QF group though, take the money and run :{

[Keg]

Which again is reason not to 'hold out' for the prospect of a package. If it comes at all it'll be 6 months at S/O pay... unless it improves under the next EBA.

[TineeTim]

Few, if any, of the guys who would go would be on the list for a redundancy package. If I'm offered a package, Keg will be off on a PUIT trip.

[maggotdriver]

6100, are you an Emirati? I would guess not, therefore I would assume (dangerous I know) that you have left your country of birth for an opportunity (money or rank) that you couldn't avail of at home. Your own national carrier is probably being eaten by the tax haven airlines (one of which I assume you work for) partly because they're using an arbitrage on taxation.

This is how you got your position. Don't sit there and hold everyone else responsible when in fact these airlines exist with the help of people like you; and possibly me. The lack of any intelligent government strategy from any country to deal with this situation is probably to do with deals regarding oil.

We're all pawns so get off the horse.:ouch:

[Gnadenburg]

The Middle East is hell on earth. Don't subject your families to it unless you have to.

Actually, that is generally the catch-cry at all Middle Eastern airlines eventually. Don't come here unless you have to. The Arabs can't help themselves in the end.

[Oakape]

How is all of this going to affect the captain/FO ratio? If 100+ F/O's go to EK, does that mean that QF will have to down-train captains to the right seat? If so, how much is that going to cost? Or perhaps they will promote S/O's to F/O's to cover the shortfall - still a cost. I imagine that the EBA will prevent anyone getting a pay cut if down-trained - or will it?

Perhaps this is an indication of future downsizing of the airline & they expect to loose a similar number of captains to either retirement or redundancy, therefore keeping the balance.

[ruprecht]

Or perhaps they will promote S/O's to F/O's to cover the shortfall

I don't think any SO's are going to get promoted out of this.:rolleyes:

[Queentual]

there is alot more to consider here. If you join EK on a LWOP and decide to stay, what is your seniority date based on ? Its hardly fair to the guys who resign and join direct entry to have a joining date behind a QF LWOP guy. If you finish you 3 year term, do you then stay on the date of joining starting from the end of your 3 year contract??
If you return to QF, there has to be a job for you. I cant see how you can just displace someone junior to get your job back. Dont know the answer to any of these questions yet.

[Oakape]

Its hardly fair

It's the Middle East. 'Fair' just isn't in their vocabulary!

[Queentual]

what this may do is save the jobs of the 100 most junior S/O's. What I would like to see is AIPA direct every QF F/O to apply and see what management think of that!

[Beer Baron]

Those who are comparing this situation to what Jetstar and Jet Connect have done to mainline are seriously deluded.
-The QF guys who go will be on the same contract as all the other EK guys.
-There will be no B scale.
-They are not slowing (or halting) the career progression of any current EK guys.
-They are not going to be direct entry captains jumping the queue. In fact, as many have stated, they will not be able to become captains at all so no EK guys will have their promotional prospects effected in any way.

To argue that they will drive down the contract conditions is also very hard to believe/understand. Did everyone of you current EK employees drive down the conditions of the guys there before you by your accepting of a job there? No? Then how is this different?
If the QF guys resigned and came outside LWOP how is this different?

And finally to the cries of, "how would you like it if the reverse happened to you?" Well it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. If every pilot in EK wants to apply for a job with Qantas and joins on the same EBA as us and at the back of the seniority queue then what's the problem??

[blueloo]

...and last but not least...with QF guys going over there (because they are not prepared to work for third world conditions with the orange cancer here or in Singas) frees up all those vacancies for guys overseas (Emirates included) - who want to come back and get payed peanuts (and treated like ****e!) here! ITs really WIN WIN for all!
:E:E


(How can I be so sarcastic :ugh::ugh:)

[6100]

I dont work for EK any more, and whatever people do or dont do is unlikely to cause me any grief. I am also not judging anyone as each persons circumstance is different and each one must do what is right for them

To say that this situation is different is quite correct, just as every other situation is different. But not that different. I was merely putting forward the observation that it is very easy to rationalise a decision because the situation is "different". That doesnt change the fact that it will have an impact, positive or negative, depending on your view.

I'll wait to see the comments if J* advertise for DEC positions on the 787. I imagine that will be different also. I can already come up with a heap of reasons why that would be different, and why it would be good for me to take a DE 787 command. I'm pretty sure that others would see problems with that though.

Bottom line is, if it works for you then do it. Nobody is going to thank you for not going, but the flip side is that you will have to live with the stigma if it turns out to be an unpopular choice.

[Angle of Attack]

Ben Sandilands quote in the comments section of his article about this

The talk I’m hearing is that Qantas faces around $500 million in restructuring costs including pilot terminations when it makes its August 24 announcement. Getting 120 of its first officers off its books before then would save it considerable money. However I think most pilots have studied the pilot shortage EK faces as it expands, and concluded that they will wait until they get the Qantas package, and then go to Emirates, or other expanding carriers. After discussing the arrangements with a tax consultant of course, so that they get the most out of the tax free environment in say, the UAE, at minimal cost in terms of applicable Australian tax laws.

[standard]

It's worth noting that this is NOT a contract, anyone accepted by EK will have completed all of the EK recruitment process, no different to anyone else.

So what if the guys decide to stay after 3 years, of course that they should keep their seniority number, after all they have given 3 years of service already.

The fact that they are there on a LWOP basis is really something in the background, if they choose to return to QF so be it, and the guys behind will move up a seniority number.

I think the realistic number will be 15 - 30.

[Bypass ratio]

A3Lately Driver, I tend to disagree on the following point:

Regardless of whether QF Pilots come to EK or not, it will not stop EK increasing the terms & conditions for the "new joiners" if they become desperate enough. I'm sure that EK will want to start dividing & conquering our pilot group. What a better way than to have different payscales within the group?
What can you & I do if they start hiring F/O's on a higher salary or better conditions...........nothing.

[blueloo]

They ARE desperate and you guys will be undermining any chance of EK pilots getting back the conditions they had.


Possibly the most odd logic here - but lets examine this statement.....

So THEY have already lost their conditions?

Then how is an extra few blow-ins gonna make a difference? If a 700 odd pilot shortage has seen conditions worsen and not improve?

[Beer Baron]

LR 3, I believe the only person here trying to rationalise the irrational - is you. To suggest that it is "Game On" if QF guys go over on LWOP and we should expect EK guys to come back and take QF commands is ignoring reality.

As I stated before, Qantas F/O's would go to Emirates at the back of the queue and would not effect the promotional prospects of any EK pilot. So tell me how this would justify EK blokes coming back and jumping ~1500 QF F/O and S/O's for a direct entry captain position???

And by your logic, any pilot who applies to EK is driving down the conditions there as they are lessening the shortage. So I guess that even applied to you at sometime also but you hold a special grudge against the prospect of a QF bloke doing the same.

[rmcdonal]

And by your logic, any pilot who applies to EK is driving down the conditions there as they are lessening the shortage.
I don't think he saying that at all. There are X number of Pilots and Y number of jobs. When you bring LWOP into the equation then Pilots can hold two spots changing the ratio. Less jobs same number of pilots.

[blueloo]

If 120 take up the offer....which would be pretty remote...... it still leaves a shortage of 600 odd....


What are they gonna tell the other 600 applicants.... go away...you are lowering our conditions?

Remember - the conditions have to remain fairly good up there, otherwise why would you work in the environment - there really isnt much going for it as a foreigner.

[Easy Ryder]

Well I can see how 120 QF drivers may hinder an improvement of our terms and conditions but looking at the bigger picture is it so bad?

120 pilots will take about 3-4 months to commence a course, and a further 3 months before they're online. That would allow the interview pool to fill up a little bit.

The disadvantage to us is that it would DELAY a potential pay rise etc etc in the short term. Remember 700 guys in 12 months, and 500 at least for each subsequent year for approx 5 years or more.... This is a drop in the ocean.

The advantages are, EK won't have to park airplanes as they arrive, 120 permanant QF FO's will allow an equivalent number of promotions to the left seat, for full time EK pilots. And reduces the chances the real threat....DEC's!

In my opinion this is a small price to pay...

[captainrats]

Dont take LWOP.
Stick around ,take the redundancy and then go work for Emirates.
If you have property in Australia rent it out.
Talk to a very competent tax expert about expat tax rates.
Do not slag off at each other.QF management are the enemy.Remember that

[Ushuaia]

Good grief! All the hand-wringing, postulating and pontificating! Frankly, I really wonder how some of you will make it to retirement without a heart-attack, given the stuff you are worrying about.

HOW is any of this different to the SAME program Air New Zealand pilots went to EK on at least 3 years ago (it must be that long, as some of them returned to NZ after 3 years and the others stayed - about a 50:50 split, I am told) ?

EK is growing rapidly and has always sourced experienced pilots. Promotion of guys already there will NOT be affected by this program (unless you are secretly incompetent and were hoping for command by default due lack of any other suitable F/O's)

It is virtually a given (I would say "guaranteed") that QF guys going will still need to do the 3000 hours on EMIRATES aircraft before being eligible for command. That is 3 years minimum and more realistically 5 years or so. I would practically guarantee that to stay on and do a command would require a resignation from QF. And what is wrong with that? The QF guy will have earned his EK gig and done the time (no one is giving QF guys an automatic slot on EK; they each have to go through the EK selection process). But a command opportunity for him will not be ahead of guys there now (unless incompetent, etc etc)_

[Bigboeingboy]

Does EK have an age limit? QF has a ton of experienced guys approaching 65 that will have to go back to short haul that would rather keep doing long haul.

[Ushuaia]

F/O's must not have reached 49th birthday, I believe, unless they have heavy jet command time. Not sure how much.

[Bigboeingboy]

Well I trust thats not going to be the case as EK will be missing out on some of the most experienced long haul pilots in the world.

[standard]

Bigboeingboy, with respect, you know that EK do more than 2 trips a month and pay far less the 330 or bigger?.. I would be highly suprised if they miss out on too many QF 'experienced' f/O's.

[Bigboeingboy]

Standard.
Some of us actually do this job because we love it! Shock horror!
I for one am happy to fly as much as I can. I started the hard way with QF as a cadet years ago and I know what its like in the real world.
EK will benefit from the vast experience of the QF pilots. QF is the loser here. I have heard QF pilots with A380 time will actually be promoted to Captain once they arrive in Dubai.

[mohikan]

Standard you a$$clown - last month I did 6 trips and had 10 days off. EK doesn't have a monopoly on being at work you know.

What an irrelevant waste of time this thread is. After Aug 24, somewhere in the vicinity of 1000 guys are going to be surplus to QF's requirements.

Its a fair bet that out of necessity, some will apply to EK. Hell some might even get in.

The LWOP piece is a sideshow and a distraction. In the big scheme of things its meaningless to the numbers of "ex" QF guys that are going to apply.

Given the number of EK guys that have come back to Australia to work for the JQ and Tiger Z scales, I find it a bit rich that you are complaining about the reverse occurring.

If you feel so strongly about things, apply to IFALPA for a recruiting ban. See how far you get.


ENDNOTE BBB is a troll. I don't know any QF pilots who have his attitude. Ignore.....

[neville_nobody]

I started the hard way with QF as a cadet years ago and I know what its like in the real world.

:} Yeah nice one!!

[Tankengine]

Bigboeingboy,
nice piss-take!:ok:






or

maybe not, knowing how deluded some of these old guys are.:ugh:

[Vorsicht]

Well I trust thats not going to be the case as EK will be missing out on some of the most experienced long haul pilots in the world.

There it is!!!!!!!!!

And what's more, those QF pilots will miss out on flying with probably the most experienced long haul captains in the world


Bwahahahahahaha:ugh:

[Bigboeingboy]

QF was built by Cadets. We have been the best in industry with no major mishaps except for QF 1 which was the S/O's fault.
I know a few senior QF pilots that would move to EK should the terms be favourable.
I have heard we can negotiate our conditions.

[Bypass ratio]

I think you'll find that QF1 was not the fault of the S/O but actually the Captains. Have a re-read of the report.

Regards

[TineeTim]

We have been the best in industry with no major mishaps except for QF 1 which was the S/O's fault.

That's just BULLSH*T!!!!!!!!

Everyone knows it was the S/O's wife who was at fault. Get your facts straight next time you twit!!!! :}

[KABOY]

Standard.
Some of us actually do this job because we love it! Shock horror!
I for one am happy to fly as much as I can. I started the hard way with QF as a cadet years ago and I know what its like in the real world.
EK will benefit from the vast experience of the QF pilots. QF is the loser here. I have heard QF pilots with A380 time will actually be promoted to Captain once they arrive in Dubai.

And you forgot to mention that they can still where their QF uniform and request that they are addressed as 'Captain', 'Sir' or if they like a relaxed flight deck it will be 'Skipper'.

And as they are amongst some of the most experienced international drivers in the world they can stay in SYD and pick up the aircraft from there and bring it back after a couple days layover in DXB.


Mohammed bin Rashad Al Maktoum shall great their arrival at the airport and express his eternal gratefulness to the QF pilots who sacrificed so much to come and work for this developing airline.

[Capt Kremin]

Please don't feed the bigboeingboy troll.

[astroboy55]

After Aug 24, somewhere in the vicinity of 1000 guys are going to be surplus to QF's requirements.
:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:


I would have thought more like 150!!

[Shark Patrol]

LR 3,

Yes, I can see your point, but it has ever been so. QF pilots saying that J* pilots shouldn't accept the crap conditions changed nothing. Virgin guys saying pilots shouldn't accept the crap VOZ conditions changed nothing. Pilots are not altruistic - they will do what feels right for them and that's it sadly!

I think most QF guys who are thinking of taking the EK LWOP offer are not doing it for career enhancement. They would be doing it because they have hud a GUTFUL of the pathetic management of QF, the disgraceful behaviour of Joyce, CLifford and Buchanan and would just love to raise them the middle finger as they head out the door, hopefully to an orgnaization where, for a few years, the atmoshpere is not as absolutely toxic as Qantas. We joined Qantas because it WAS a great organization that offered a well-paid, career with advancement potential. The TOOLS named above have destroyed that!!

[Angle of Attack]

Astroboy55,

Initially the numbers are around 200, but once the offshore operation gets setup ( several months to a few years to get fully rolling) the surplus will be around 1000 ( I heard 950 from a source), of course this is an initial estimate there are many variables to the equation, ie how many take this EK thing, how many retire, how many accept positions in the new offshore SIA wannabe airline, how many agree to go to J* etc, they will want to minimise any reduncy of course to line their own pockets but they will try everything in the book to avoid it too! Either way looking long term I believe QF is doomed, they cannot expect to compete just because they base their operations in some other port, so I suggest bleed them with long term PIA and hold out and make them pay the generous redundancy payments as per the award, ( and I heard a heap have gone on long term sick leave too to burn that up) then just go and work somewhere else, you'll have a nice cash bonus that year and you can replicate what Dixon did maybe minus 99% haha!

[logan]

Just a quick heads up for you QF guys. Having just done my "Time" in EK you will need more than 3 years LWOP from QF to complete your bond as it does not start going down till you start flying.

I would suggest 3.5 years to be on the safe side.

[allaru]

Make no mistake that there is one, and only one reason for EK approaching QF, its because they can no longer get pilots, and they don't want to pay the going rate to attract them.

And that's after they lowered the hours from 4500hs to 2500hrs total time, and are ringing guys who have 2000hrs. THEY ARE DESPERATE.

Air Arabia pays a Captain with 3000hrs on type (57000dhs/month) for a 92 hour month. All of our FOs upgrading have 3000hrs on type as it is a company requirement for upgrade. They do this because that's the minimum they need to pay to attract the pilots they need.

Note that up until recently new joining EK FOs had well in access of the minimum hours required to join Air Arabia as Captains. So whats my point, the point is that EK have been getting away with substandard wages for far too long and its about time they started paying us the going rate, and re instated our overtime, credit for leave, our availability of leave, our availability of leave tickets (4 week wait followed by wait list b%$sh&t), decent allowances, the heavy crew we need on numerous bu&***** 9hr plus flights in the middle of the night with 2 pilots, and the pilots we need to bring our hours down from 95 a month to give our lives back again. WHERE SICK OF IT.

And less of the new age GQ, and Mens Health reading FOs woozes we've recruited lately.

Yes 150 or so guys from QF won't make much of a difference, but you may be surprised on day one to be meeting your colleagues from what ever s*&t holes from around the world they've managed to con into the same deal.

On principle it is an insult for those of us here who showed the commitment to resign from our previous airlines and make a life here in Dubai, and tow the line with all aspects of life here both within and outside of the airline. Those on contract will never experience those sort of pressures knowing they have a guaranteed position back home. Rather come here and sit it out while your seniority number improves back home, have a good time and don't give a s*&t.

In my opinion you should have no position on the seniority list until you resign and join EK proper, to do otherwise is an insult to those who have. I for one didn't have the luxury of a three year trial to decide if I liked it or not. And yes you will be eroding our conditions of service.

HOW WOULD YOU FEEL ABOUT 150 EK PILOTS, AND ANOTHER 300 FROM SAY ITALY, SPAIN AND BANGLADESH TURNING UP ON QFs DOOR STEP WHILE YOUR UNION NEGOTIATES FOR HIGH WAGES.

We'd be welcome with open arms I'm sure.

[clear to land]

What allaru said sounds fair- no EK seniority number without a resignation from QF- then you won't be detracting from our conditions. The shortage is really starting to bite here- if you come under any but normal recruitment processes you are a management finger in one of the many leaking holes, effectively doing to our T & C's whet JQ have done to yours. No more moral high ground lads.

[atiuta]

The Air NZ LWOP deal released how many? Six? (or Sux depending on your elocution).

QF may cough a few more than Air NZ but it's not going to be a significant dent in EK's requirements. Regardless, EK will get it's pilots from somewhere and I'd rather have a competent operator that I can choose (or not) to have a beer/coffee with in the seat next to me.

It's not only Australian pilots that use "my last employer" or any other line that may or may not be appropriate or tactful. I will continue to ignore or deal with it using normal standards of wit or sarcasm.

Regarding the J* situation, it's abhorrent what has happened but the roots began in 1989 and has continued ever since. The origins of '89 in particular evolved not because of pilot action, but rather government and media moguls desire to dismantle conditions of a select group of employers for whatever their own personal satisfaction was. It wasn't my dispute but it makes for an interesting case study in the history of industrial relations.

The global devolution of pilot conditions evolved before '89 and has continued in a downward swinging pendulum towards market forces which ironically is set by ourselves. Bitching at each other will achieve nothing, maintaining our dignity and professionalism will. However, there are airlines that I will never work for out of principle, Jetstar (any version) & Ryanair for a start. If I wanted to be a gigolo, I wouldn't wear a pilots uniform as a disguise. Sorry, I let my dignity slip. I would have added a couple of other ME airlines as well but desisted for fear of class action.

Airlines need professional operators and will pay for it accordingly. Conditions may not reflect our wish list, but there is jack **** that we can do about it regardless of our employment legislation. We now live in a global work environment with more or less total loss of unity, even in Australia.

Emirates need a lot of pilots in the future and a few more skippies will barely make a dent. If our conditions are so bad, then you should be morally obliged to say no. Not because your refusal will benefit the Emirates pilot group, but simply because it isn't worth your while. If it works for you, then come on over with an open mind.

If you're a half decent person, can fly without putting fear into my family and prepared to drink non Australian Beer, I'll even buy the first round.

[Tankengine]

The posters comparing Qantas guys going to Emirates to Jetstar undercutting Qantas are on a strange trip.:cool:
They will be on standard conditions of EK employment, no undercutting as EK are paying at the top end in the middle east?:confused:
Hopefully you all can get improvements in the next few years as pilot shortages hit.:ok:
Unfortunately if Qantas management continues on it's suicidal path there will be many QF guys/gals around to soak up a shortage. :mad:

Emirates pilots who come to Oz to fly for Jetstar and Tiger ARE undercutting conditions here compared to Qantas and even Virgin.:ugh:
Ok ,I understand why they want to fly here at home.
Those slagging off about "skygods" and Bangkok should look at the Tiger situation here, an airline shut down largely over two incidents by an ex EK 340 pilot!:eek:

EK will get some experienced guys, the pilots will get to see some different things for a few years, or stay for a carreer change.:)

[donpizmeov]

I can not see how this undermines any EK pilot. 700 pilots will be hired in the next 12 months regardless if they are QF on LWOP, Air Malta guys made redundant, or another bakers dozen of the USA RJ driver type. Guys have been joining here on LWOP from carriers in Europe and the US for over a decade. Good on em. Some have gone back, some have stayed. Everyone goes through the same selection process (QF guys you don't have to pay to do this one though :E), and if/when you pass you are more than welcome.
Things to think about:
1. Pretty large set up cost moving over here; cars, furniture etc, is three years enough time to recoup this on a FO salary? You will need to reverse it again when you go home. Single guys will do fine, married with kids may not.
2. Beware the TAX man. Make sure you pay money to an expert on the advice you get for this. Your everyday tax accountant has no clue. LWOP will really muddy the water on the non resident status. I have met a Doctor that took two years LWOP and worked for good coin in Qatar. His life is miserable at the moment as on submitting his first tax return on return to Oz, after returning to his original employer, he was informed he was to be investigated with respect his non residence status for the previous years. This would be a real show stopper if you can't get an iron clad ruling.

Its a cr@p day when this happens to a flag carrier. We should have beaten these accountant airline ruling types up a little more when they were at school.

The Don

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

C'mon guys. The sky is falling in on the blokes down here. There is now a lifeline to somewhere else (if you go I would bet none will come back), and you guys start rattling on about some imaginary pay rise. Yep, the QF blokes are the selfish ones.

[cow bay kid]

Small piece of ancient history. When Ansett folded the first time, 12 or so ex-Ansett 767 Capt/FO's came to QF on a 6-12 (forget exactly) month contract as direct entry pilots. No doubt the deal was agreed between the company and AIPA.
One particular FO (g'day Slider) jumped through the QF hoops to get a full time job and by the time his contract expired had the seniority to bid for a Cairns base FO position. Probably the only QF pilot never to be an SO.
The numbers and time frame are very different, but just showing this sort of thing has happened at QF.

[DirectAnywhere]

Someone may have mentioned it earlier but it's a remarkable coincidence that this FSO came out late on a Friday afternoon on the weekend that the details of the carbox tax are being released.

No coverage in the weekend papers and sure as eggs there will be nothing tomorrow.

When QANTAS is gifting trained pilots to a major international competitor it would normally be newsworthy, especially in light of the vote for PIA around job security. Well, it's not newsworthy this weekend!

[ANCDU]

No coverage in the press at the moment, but wait until the PIA results are back on Monday, and the press get hold of this, it could be pure gold for publicity. It actually makes Emirates look good for taking Qantas pilots. Watch Olivia put her spin on this!

I wonder it JT will have to use the same speil on Emirates flights safety demo's soon! :}

I think Emirates will have enough desperate applicants from Qantas pilots soon that i think 30 - 40 guys coming over under LWOP will be the least of your problems if you think they will reduce your T & C's.

[mohikan]

What needs to be understood is that some in the EK pilot group have been running an active campaign on this and other internet fora to dissuade pilots coming to EK.

The reason they have done this is to try and improve their own position with the company. Fair enough, I would do the same if I was in their shoes.

Demonising pilots who want to join the Airline gets you nowhere though. Qantas is about to throw 1000 pilots out on the street.

Think about that for a moment.

The guys and girls, who have done nothing except been loyal and dedicated employees, are being made redundant simply because Joyce figures he can get lower cost pilots in Singapore.

In no way will this effect airfares or shareholder returns. What it will effect is senior management KPI's, and therefore bonuses.

So if some of the 1000 end up at EK, so be it. Those that come will adapt, and will be keen to do it "the EK way".

By all means keep up your campaign. Just recognise the real enemy is Airline management, not your fellow pilots.

[Tempo]

Very well put Mohikan.

[ruprecht]

1000 pilots out on the street

What's the source for that number?

I'm not disputing it, I just want to know where it came from.

[Sonny Hammond]

Atiuta's point of view mirrors my own.

Will EK allow aircraft to be parked? NO! They will get pilots from somewhere- anywhere actually.

I know who i'd rather fly with...


Also, our fascination with pay and conditions has worked well hasn't it?

Maybe for once take a different view. Is the package acceptable? If so, then...

Consider the overall VALUE of the package rather than the $$. In that is the true measure of the offer.

[schlong hauler]

Qantas has too many pilots due to the transfer of business to J*. Now an offer to go to EK for 3 years LWOP yet there are over 200 pilots well into their 60s in mainline. Most have had a cream career! Very generous super, pay and conditions and yet junior F/Os, the group shafted the most by the LCC cancer, their careers completely - ucked now have to consider how they can salvage their career. To all the pilots in their twilight years reaping the benefits of super seniority and an extension of 10 years on what your original career term would have been, it's time to do the honourable thing and retire and give the pilots who will never have the career and financial reward you have had a go. You have millions in Super and hopefully property. Bight the bullet and leave with dignity knowing you helped save the career of so many aspiring younger pilots with the same passion you once had. You have moral obligation to retire gracefully.
End of rant.

[mohikan]

LR3.

Understand that you are bitter and twisted over the fact your career is not meeting your expectations.

JQ and VB are hiring. No-one is compelling you to stay in the Middle East.

[Prong Wallop]

The devil will be in the detail. You would be very ill advised to assume that having accepted the offer you would automatically be entitled to return in a short to medium timeframe. My bet is that there will be a few conditional clauses hedging Qantas' obligations to take you back, such as "subject to suitable vacancies" and "qualified on type". Do the maths, 120 slots with negative growth with retirements only and you see my point, and you may have to finance your way back in ditto the JQ recruitment model.

[Sonny Hammond]

Schlongy says it, we all think it.

Time for the silverspooners to move to the lawn bowl set. :ok:

[TineeTim]

The devil will be in the detail. You would be very ill advised to assume that having accepted the offer you would automatically be entitled to return in a short to medium timeframe. My bet is that there will be a few conditional clauses hedging Qantas' obligations to take you back, such as "subject to suitable vacancies" and "qualified on type". Do the maths, 120 slots with negative growth with retirements only and you see my point, and you may have to finance your way back in ditto the JQ recruitment model.

Let me guess, you haven't read the LWOP provisions in the award? You come back with the same seniority you had when you left- you slot in where you fit in the scheme of things. No 'subject to suitable vacancies' clause exists.

[RATpin]

You are certainly making managements job easier,dividing and conquering each other,even Sun Tzu("The Art Of War") did not see that variation of the human condition!
Good Luck Boys.

[Capt Roo]

On holidays so missed much of this :ooh:

All the ethics of of it aside, I think the QF SFOs are going to get a rude shock when they fly a few months of EK rosters. :uhoh:

[Queentual]

Its only the 767 guys that will look at this so im sure they will handle the rosters

[Sonny Hammond]

Well if they've been sitting around doing 30 hours a month, things will be different.

But your right, they'll get to do what they enjoy again AND on 'old technology'!!

capnroo, I suppose you're a 400 captain aren't you?, calling yourself capt n all..

[piston broke again]

So where does Olivia wirth sit in all this now? Didn't she say Qantas are still hiring??? Maybe her toes were crossed.

[MTOW]

Gents, (and ladies), I just stumbled upon this thread and have not read all the posts, so apologies if this point has been covered already.

In the two or three pages of threads that I did read, I noticed a recurring theme that any QF pilot who goes to EK will be offering EK his superior QF training and experience and that EK will benefit from this.

How do I put this without causing offence? Speaking as one who has been there, done that and still has a very tattered Sandpit T-shirt to show for it, allow me to offer some sage advice. If you want to have a happy life in the Sandpit, follow the advice a very experienced Brit FO gave to me many years ago and GO TO EK WITH AN ATTITUDE THAT (all) YOU POSSESS A BASIC PPL, for that's the way they'll treat you. Don't, whatever you do, do as all too many others have done in the past, and arrive there thinking that EK will actually acknowledge any of the experience you have.

[Jetstarpilot]

Heard from a reliable source AIPA has managed to negotiate with EK any QF Pilot taking up the offer will now also be able to wear his service ribbons as per the LH award...

Should tip a few more in favour:ok:

[standard]

Just to clarify Tineetim, your number is ghosted, so if there is movement, then your number moves up with it.

Standard

[maggot]

uuummmmm MTOW;

I think you have read the wrong exec summary.

[Variable Incidence]

You just demonstrated to everyone what a tool you are!:D

[hotnhigh]

Rumour now is EK having a big rethink about the whole proposal. More consideration along the lines of that if QF makes redundancies, then some may flow to emirates. So no need to make the offer subject to LWOP.
Interesting also that this initial proposal can be up and running within a week, yet LWOP to transfer to jetstar was/is like pulling teeth. Painful.
Wait and see what the smartest guys in the room propose on the 24th of August

[Poto]

If QF makes drivers redundant, not many of those from the bottom will have Emitates requirements. All will be former S/O's with bugger all P2 time.

If Emirates want 120 QF drivers then the deal will have to stand.:rolleyes:

[Tankengine]

MTOW,
I think the F/Os likely to go are experienced and have been well trained.
I will miss flying with them.
I doubt if any will go with arrogance that that they are somehow "superior".:ugh:

If EK wish they could be checked to line quite quickly.:ok:
[as QF did with ex Cathay guys]

If EK treat them as PPLs and have huge training requirements then their management are more stupid and arrogant than they appear.:=

Everyone needs an open mind. :)

[Stalins ugly Brother]

Wow pcpilot2, very intelligent post, hows the medication working out for you??? Didn't miss out on getting into Qantas at any stage did we? :rolleyes:

[SMOC]

If QF makes drivers redundant, not many of those from the bottom will have Emitates requirements. All will be former S/O's with bugger all P2 time.

This will make CXs day, Airbus and -400 P2 with few options, just what CX are after to keep cost down. I swear airlines always find a way out to screw their crews.

[Angle of Attack]

What the?
I doubt any of the QF F/O's that go there will have any so called attitude, this skygod myth is just that these days pretty much apart from a few of the old school Captains over 60 still around. The only overwhelming attitude they would have is hating the QF management, and a sense of despair that it is taking QF down you know what creek!

[Iron Bar]

Rumor is the agreement between EK and QF was never finalised and
QF flight ops have jumped the gun . . . . . . Much embarrassment and much more if it has to be withdrawn.

[Andu]

Rumor is the agreement between EK and QF was never finalised and
QF flight ops have jumped the gun You could be forgiven for thinking QF management have been taking lessons from Juliar Gillard a la Timor/Malaysia/you name it.

[slim]

Confirmed, Emirates (so QF says) have pulled the plug on the LWOP arrangement. Anybody else think it's a bit of a coincidence that the deal is withdrawn the day the pilot's PIA gets voted up?

[Angle of Attack]

Its been all cancelled, lol what a joke!

I reckon they think they will get crew regardless, it does seem like a co-incidence!

[Jackneville]

Yeah, what a joke indeed. Qantas FltOps Managers, do you have any credibility ?

Here is a suggestion, why not publish the correspondence from EK in the
retraction FSO, hey, it's not that we think the whole thing was just a hoax,
or disbelieve you........but you must have something in writing from EK, right ?

[Pukka]

Perhaps the hero of Aer Lingus might try and get a LWOP arrangement with them!!

[donpizmeov]

I wonder if the offer for them arrange leave for you to attend interviews still stands. Seems only right really. Wouldn't hurt to ask.

[fearcampaign]

To add to my last post i would not be surprised if the QF/EK deal gets scuppered.
Qantas are worried about the PR backlash so the rumor goes.
No need to worry Emirates crews, perhaps you will get that payrise after all!

[standard]

Deals off!, apparantly EK withdrew offer after pilot squealed!

[Iron Bar]

FSO published this afternoon. EK lwop cancelled. Qantas flight ops management you are a joke.

[ampclamp]

I'd like all of you guys to stay around and force them to make VR offers. Take the cash then go where you wish.
The 3 yrs lwop is a crock , more so now it has been pulled as quick as it appeared. Same time as the PIA too :hmm:

[Wizofoz]

standard,

It had nothing to do with EK pilots squealing because

1) It would have been no skin off our nose and

2) EK wouldn't have cared if we did!!

[maggot]

standard,

It had nothing to do with EK pilots squealing because

1) It would have been no skin off our nose and

2) EK wouldn't have cared if we did!!

hmm, seems there's a few squealin' in these pages!

[bangbounceboeing]

so what happened between friday afternoon and monday afternoon................

[*Lancer*]

... you mean other than several dozen guys doing financial figures and trying to reconcile their logbooks? :hmm:

[SOPS]

bagbounce.....thats what I would like to know.

[Stalins ugly Brother]

My info is the agreement got pulled by Emirates after AJ's interview yesterday leaving the possibility of redundancies for the pilot group on the table. "Why offer them(Qantas pilots) lwop when they will be coming anyway!"apparently was ek managements thought.

Well done Alan Joyce, you really do hate your staff don't you!!!!!! 94% yes vote for PIA, you are going to be a busy little man the next few months....

[ruprecht]

This is such a running goatf*ck!:rolleyes:

[Poto]

Apparently QF wanted better rights to return the crew if required earlier than three Years:ooh:

I reckon that is bullsh!t though:yuk:

They probably just stuffed it up

[fearcampaign]

Qantas Flight Ops management apparently changed their mind at the 11th hour and wanted to place extra restrictions on crews going to Emirates. :ugh::ugh:

When the QantasAsia CEO went on TV, Emirates management got a copy of the interview. They probably know they can pick up the 100 plus pilots(sorry Kamikazes) that will be axed from Qantas after the August announcement.:ugh:

As Wayne Kearns says, "if you have to choose between a f&*^ up, or a conspiracy, it's always the F%$# up".

[Captain Gidday]

Yep. Those blokes are too stupid to organise a conspiracy.

[Ushuaia]

angryrat, yes, that's simply what QF is telling us. It could be an outright porky pie, or just deliberately misleading and omitting a few slightly relevant facts, eg, it may well be that QF imposed a late condition unacceptable to EK, so EK indeed decided to "no longer accept pilots on a LWOP basis."

Scuttlebutt tonight already is that QF announced the arrangement prematurely before EK was happy with it, so EK subsequently said "Deal's off". THAT is to be verified...... But yes, smelling like QF stuff up leading to EK decision. So typical of QF to try to paint the other party as the culprit though!

I've thought long and hard as to whether it was some sort of industrial game being played against the LH pilots, but I can't see how. I think it's just sheer incompetence on some department's part, likely QF Flight Ops.

At the end of the day, guys can still apply to EK for whatever reasons they want (better promotion prospects, some certainty of employment continuity, a love of desert scenery). ALL that is changed over the weekend is that it's back the way it was: if selected, they will have to produce a letter of resignation from QF.

[FFRATS]

Years ago...
Get told you have a QF slot with a weeks notice for your GA employer....
Years later....
You have a EK application but within a week Qantas says it no longer avail....
OPS normal :D:D
FFRATS

[ratpoison]

I think the issue here was the 3 year 36K bond that EK require whether one is endorsed or not. It's non negotiable. If QF wanted the lads back earlier than the completed 3 years, then he would be up for the outstanding amount left on the bond for each pilot. Obviously QF would then be out of pocket.

[mohikan]

Talking to 'son of nudist' yesterday the issue was that EK did not realise the amount of discontent such a move was going to cause within its own pilot ranks.

At the moment they can't afford to lose anyone, so they scuppered the deal.

And the other point being that with the big block of redundancies coming as part of QFAsia, they will be able to get the guys and girls they want anyway.

[neville_nobody]

They probably know they can pick up the 100 plus pilots(sorry Kamikazes) that will be axed from Qantas after the August announcement

The bottom 100 at QF wouldn't qualify for Emirates unless they are given a dispo or have flown a jet as an FO or Cpt elsewhere.

[clear to land]

As has been said here before-EK wouldn't care about any perceived impact within as they have demonstrated many times previously with DEC's, I would suggest this is misinformation from the within the QF camp, probably due to the negative publicity this would generate in conjunction with the PIA just voted for.

[Bigboeingboy]

If what CG and the EK recruitment department have done in recent days in any indication of the management style in EK then the twit has done QF pilots a favour!
Shame on you!

[Sonny Hammond]

Please enlighten us?

[donpizmeov]

Bigboeingboy. You have no clue! CG has worked his butt off trying to help QF fellas out. This outcome has nothing to do with him. You need to look closer to the QF flight ops department.
So shame on you fella.

[CSTGuy]

The bottom 100 at QF wouldn't qualify for Emirates unless they are given a dispo or have flown a jet as an FO or Cpt elsewhere.

I wouldn't be so sure that it's the bottom 100 that will be going if some good people are shown the door........ There's a lot more involved than straight datal seniority. Sadly there is some very misplaced confidence in this whole area. :eek:

[SIUYA]

fearcampaign and Captain Gidday...

As Wayne Kearns says, "if you have to choose between a f&*^ up, or a conspiracy, it's always the F%$# up".

and

Yep. Those blokes are too stupid to organise a conspiracy.

Absolute gold! Priceless. :O

But Gidday...your reference to 'blokes' in your hypotheis displays gender bias. So your hypothesis seems to lack 'Wirth'. :8

Perhaps it could be restated as:

Yep. QF management ar$eclowns are too stupid to organise a conspiracy.

They're having a bl00dy good try at it though! :{