Std Phraseology in NZ [Archive]

27/09

9th Jul 2011, 10:33

But where the hell did this "ABC, fully ready" come from... I don't give a rats if you're only "partially ready"!!!

Agreed either you're ready or you're not, only a Pom could come up with a call like this.

All the mindless drivel on the radio drives me nuts!

Not to mention the mindless ATC drivel, like using three radio transmissions when one would suffice, or saying "behind the aircraft on final line up behind".. I heard you the first f**king time you said the word 'behind' and I'm not likely to line up in front of the aircraft on final am I?

Oakape

9th Jul 2011, 10:45

Kiwi172

9th Jul 2011, 11:02

The number of professional pilots going into procedural airspace blerting straight into what they have to say without first establishing comms with the tower. Best thing the twr could do is ignore them until they get it right.:* Then the ones that say XYZ airborne Rotorua throught 3000 climbing 4000 Totra 3 departure, well strike me, never knew that the Totra departure is in NZRO. And dont get me started on the ALTITUDE nonsense that gets thown all around the airwaves around NZHN. When in Rome boys... ur not in the UK now.:ugh: The FRTO rating appears to be found in the bottom of a weetbix box now days, most I am sure have never even read AC172-1 Then we have the parrotts that have to read everything back verbatim when a WILCO will surfice.

Happy Flightings:confused:

Tarq57

9th Jul 2011, 11:13

Not to mention the mindless ATC drivel, like using three radio transmissions when one would suffice, or saying "behind the aircraft on final line up behind".. I heard you the first f**king time you said the word 'behind' and I'm not likely to line up in front of the aircraft on final am I?

This has happened. It was an inset departure that missed hearing the "behind" and lined up in front of departing traffic. The departure aborted, and had to swerve into the grass to avoid the lighty.

The adoption of the ICAO standard came about not too long after that.

3 radio tx when one would suffice? Guilty as charged, sometimes. Depends on the workload I think the pilot may be experiencing. It is recommended that a maximum of 3 important items be contained in a radio transmission. 3 simple items is fine. Real complex instructions/information? Slow and thorough. Saves many repeats.

drpixie

9th Jul 2011, 23:38

I think "fully ready" really came across from Sydney - as in "fully sick" :)

remoak

10th Jul 2011, 00:40

The one I hate is "XXX enters, backtracks and lines up". No... you are "entering, backtracking and lining up"...

The there is the odd habit of saying "XXX rolling on the YYYYYZZ departure".

And as for reporting POB to towers... what an utter waste of time. Only in NZ...

BTW the "behind the aircraft on final line up behind" phraseology came into common use in Europe after an accident between a Streamline Shorts 330 and an Air Liberte MD-83 at Paris Charles De Gaulle in May 2000. A report can be downloaded - www.bea.aero/docspa/2000/g-wn000525a/pdf/g-wn000525a.pdf (http://www.pprune.org/www.bea.aero/docspa/2000/g-wn000525a/pdf/g-wn000525a.pdf)

ForkTailedDrKiller

10th Jul 2011, 03:07

And as for reporting POB to towers... what an utter waste of time. Only in NZ...

No, I believe that it is required at joint military/civil aerodrome where the RAAF do Approach and Tower, ie Townsville, Darwin etc. If you don't give it to them, they will ask for it.

Those of us who fly regularly from such aerodrome just get into a habit - which may seem odd when you are elsewhere.

Dr :8

Oakape

10th Jul 2011, 05:40

Dont forget the dumbass POB readback when you ask fur cleerunce..http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/nerd.gif

And as for reporting POB to towers... what an utter waste of time. Only in NZ...

What is the big deal guys?

So when you prang on take-off, the tower has your POB on hand to give to the RFF so as they immediately know how many to look for, instead of having to wait until someone gets on the phone to the company & tries to ascertain just how many people were on board.

I would have thought that was a good thing.

It also means the the RFF personnel are not risking their lives unnecessarily by going back into burning wreckage looking for people when everyone is already out.

haughtney1

10th Jul 2011, 06:48

What is the big deal guys?

So when you prang on take-off, the tower has your POB on hand to give to the RFF so as they immediately know how many to look for, instead of having to wait until someone gets on the phone to the company & tries to ascertain just how many people were on board.

I would have thought that was a good thing.

It also means the the RFF personnel are not risking their lives unnecessarily by going back into burning wreckage looking for people when everyone is already out.

Ummmm certainly on the flights I operate, I was under the impression that the filed flight-plan contained the POB (you know, the ICAO format at the back of the plog)..now I know its subject to LMC's etc, but thats the point of signing and handing a copy of the loadsheet to the handling agent..who BTW at NZAA have an electronic record of the POB as they close the flight.
Just seems like an archaic rule that no one has had the common sense to change.
The only other place I have struck this is in deeeepest darkest Africa, SIN and the former soviet bloc countries.

remoak

10th Jul 2011, 07:18

Correct... the information is readily available without wasting air time. If it's an aircraft of any size, the information won't be required immediately in any case... plus the cabin crew will take the manifest with them when they leave.

The only time there is any point to this call is when the crew are all dead following the accident, in which case all you are doing is checking for the correct number of bodies anyway. No real urgency there.

NZScion

10th Jul 2011, 08:12

I don't think giving the POB or reading the QNH back is a waste of time at all. Remember some Ag planes have an additional seat for crew which is not visible from outside. Other times getting a quick headcount in an accident would be nice. Plans do change, and the figure you filed 30 mins ago may no longer be accurate. As others have said, regardless what you think it's good to stick to the procedure, and if you really don't like it there are lines of communication to the powers that be to change things...

Oakape

10th Jul 2011, 08:13

Ummmm certainly on the flights I operate, I was under the impression that the filed flight-plan contained the POB (you know, the ICAO format at the back of the plog)..now I know its subject to LMC's etc, but thats the point of signing and handing a copy of the loadsheet to the handling agent..who BTW at NZAA have an electronic record of the POB as they close the flight.

Sorry, no POB on our flight plans. And, as far as I can recall, no POB on any airline flight plan that has been filed for the flights I have done over the years. And what about light aircraft that aren't on a flight plan?

the information is readily available without wasting air time
I can't agree that the information is readily available. Not to ATC. That is why you will be asked for POB if you declare an emergency. If you cannot provide this due to the circumstances at the time, then ATC have to go looking for it. And good luck with getting that immediately from the person who answers the phone when ATC rings the company number that they have.

plus the cabin crew will take the manifest with them

Good luck with that as well.

There seems to be an unrealistic amount of faith in the system to perform flawlessly when required & just how well people will react in the face of a crisis, considering the evidence throughout history that tends to indicate the opposite.

Woodwork

10th Jul 2011, 08:30

It used to be a requirement for TWR controllers to obtain POB, except for RPT flights where the operator had a desk at that airport from which the information could be quickly obtained (a sop to protect sensibilities about passenger loads being commercial-in-confidence).

This is no longer specified in MATS but a lot of TCU/TWR local instructions still require it. Australian flight plans do not have to include POB and in any event the equipment they use in the tower to actually view your plan (assuming they have that capability - many Class Ds do not) won't display the POB field even if you included it.

remoak

10th Jul 2011, 09:46

Oakape

Whatever. The system doesn't work anyway, Air NZ/Link refuses to pass POB info at some fields anyway as they view it as commercially sensitive - anyone with an airband radio can plot your pax numbers. Woodbourne springs to mind in this regard.

Having spent most of my aviation career in a far more enlightened ATC environment, I can confirm that the nations that don't require POB info to be passed seem to have no particular difficulty ascertaining pax numbers in an emergency. But then, they have better flight planning and information gathering procedures. One simple call to our Ops Department would give you the POB figure in an emergency, within seconds. That's because we have computers and stuff.

Our cabin crew always took the manifest with them when vacating the aircraft, it was SOP and tested during annual refresher training.

If you have a situation where the crew can't pass the POB and the cabin crew don't have the manifest (or at least remember the pax figure that they passed to the flight deck), you are basically looking at a body count.

The history of major airline accidents will show you that Rescue Fire keep looking until they can't find any more survivors, they don't rely on a POB figure. Well, outside NZ at any rate.

DropYourSocks

10th Jul 2011, 11:10

XYZ Traffic, abc turns finals rwy xx

Go bonkers listening to kiwis and the muppet aussies who imitate them not being able to speak in first person present tense.

27/09

10th Jul 2011, 11:51

Whatever. The system doesn't work anyway, Air NZ/Link refuses to pass POB info at some fields anyway as they view it as commercially sensitive

I hear these guys every day passing POB info to the tower, including NZWB. On the occasions it's not given on first contact the tower will ask and I've never heard them refuse. Remoak, in this instance I think you're talking c**p.

Tarq57

10th Jul 2011, 11:55

A bit of history behind the POB requirement:

Many years ago a Friendship on a visual approach crashed in the Manakau Harbour, on short final to 05 at AA. (Lost visual reference in a heavy shower.)

The tower staff, as they do, alerted the appropriate folk. RFS beetled off to the threshold, launched the zodiac rafts. In the meantime, the tower had contacted the airline to find out the POB. The airline contacted their folk at the departure point, the answer came back "2". This figure was relayed to the RFS crew.

There were problems with the radio gear on the zodiac that was working. (I think the other one failed to start.) The RFS folk at the West end of the airport, watching the rescue, found out there were 2 POB, and two survivors could be seen on the wing, in the process of being rescued.

Thing was, though, the airline thought that POB meant "passengers on board". The total POB was 4; two people drowned in the semi-submerged aircraft. The RFS crew at the scene, without communications, were pretty much powerless to do much about it.

In the event, if more or better rescue facilities had been on the scene, it's unlikely they would have been saved; they were tangled in some kind of plastic tape (cargo) that spread all over the place during impact, and probably succumbed before the first rescuers arrived.

But the accident investigators quite rightly pointed out that it was a source of potential confusion, and made a recommendation that it be passed by the PIC to the tower on first contact for every flight. Apart from a period in the nineties (IIRC) when the requirement was not promulgated, it has been ever since.

[edit] as has been pointed out, it is actually not currently a requirement, simply a recommendation.

Honestly, it takes a few seconds to pass it. 99.9r% of the time it's not required. When it is required, there might be circumstances when it's important to know the correct figure, ASAP.

Most flight plans in the ATS database do not have the POB inserted before flight. They are a standard repetitive plan. Those for VFR flights (SAR watches) are not transmitted to the towers. We in tower-land know nothing about you until you call up, unless you have put in an IFIS notification. SAR plans are available to examine if required, at any ATS unit.

RadioSaigon

11th Jul 2011, 03:57

hmmm... I really don't understand why all the fuss and angst over a very simple POB requirement remoak and haughtney1. It may be something you're not used to where you are/were flying, but that does not make it wrong. Most of the flying I do is on a standard flight plan, requiring only a radio call when taxiing or airborne to activate. I certainly do want the POB known and recorded in the event of an unplanned happening... just common sense IMO. It's a very simple thing, takes little if any additional time in a properly structured call and achieves its purpose. Where's the problem?

It's real easy to climb on a high-horse, decrying "unprofessional" radio calls, that are not structured precisely as per AIP guidelines -but please, let's not forget we're humans here, not machines. It's unrealistic to expect every call to be exactly as per AIP specification -and quite frankly, it'd be god-awful mindless boring to boot. Whilst I agree that some calls are utterly unprofessional, containing neither necessary nor desirable elements in an effort to sound like a Hollywood interpretation of a professional pilot, most calls are quite professional, rapidly and effectively transmitting all required elements, with a little local colloquialism added. Despite the insinuation from some posters that the "big end of town" doesn't do it -they do, frequently. As you are no doubt aware, there is often a more personal relationship between the two ends of a professional radio call also, which may become apparent in the informality of the call. The 2 participants have had exactly this conversation countless times in the past and probably will do so again in the future. Again, where's the problem?

I've personally made and received calls when I have "strayed" from my usual stamping-ground and found the person on the other end of the call to be someone I used to know "way back when". Either they or I say gidday, we have a brief public catch-up lasting no more than a few seconds and can follow up more directly by another means at a later time. It's not unknown for others on-frequency to weigh-in too, sometimes leading to another bloody good night!!!

NZ is no different to any other place in this regard IMO. There'll always be cultural, procedural and "colloquial" differences wherever you go. To suggest that one place is "better" than another is IMO misleading. I'm in AUS just now; some of the calls here make my skin crawl. When I was in the US, I was astounded at the frequency of informal calls of the "N triple-nickel eight-ball" variety.

Some of us could possibly afford to be a little less linear in our thinking, It's neither necessary nor desirable to have every action or utterance "promulgated" and written-in-stone for us, I reckon.

remoak

11th Jul 2011, 04:42

27/09

I hear these guys every day passing POB info to the tower, including NZWB.You are clearly unaware of policy decisions surrounding this as a result of some shenanigans by the various operators on the WN-WB route. It is well-known in ATC circles.

RadioSaigon

We are simply pointing out that in better organised systems, the call is neither necessary or required. Try including POB at, say, Heathrow or Paris CDG and you would rapidly run out of available radio space. But then, as it never really gets busy in NZ, I can see why people wouldn't understand that.

Nobody is talking about strict AIP compliance, we are talking about sensible and practical applications of ICAO rules.

Nobody is talking about "better" either, it's about more sensible systems. Europe has them. NZ doesn't. What NZ does, is make knee-jerk reactions in order to plaster over the cracks when an accident reveals shortfalls. That's all the POB thing is, a band-aid that doesn't address the deeper problem (in other words, a standard NZ CAA response).

The POB issue is simple. All airline flights will have a final POB figure that is advised by the dispatcher to company ops. Very simple and very available in the event of an emergency. All non-airline and private movements have a POB field in the IFIS system, just make that a mandatory field and bingo! - problem solved.

Why create more radio traffic than necessary? The whole point of effective communication is to have less congested frequencies.

RadioSaigon

11th Jul 2011, 05:40

I do see where you're coming from remoak, but I think we're looking at the issue from 2 sides of the coin. Your comments are utterly relevant to airline ops, with all the backups available to you within the airline environment that could replace the POB call. I'm looking at it from the POV of a 3rd-level operator, on standard flight-plans activated by radio, within which the POB call is an essential element. I don't have the backups available to you. I don't want to have to write a full flight-plan which will record the POB for every flight -there's already enough on my plate now to meet regulatory compliance. As I said earlier, it's a very minor thing, occupying only a brief period of time on the radio and IMO a non-issue...

"NZCH, XXX airborne NZAS (time) 22 for NZMC with (POB) wun-zero"... really doesn't strike me as much of an issue. (BTW: I just pulled that call out of my arse -it bears no resemblance to any actual aircraft or destination -words in brackets are not spoken) :E

haughtney1

11th Jul 2011, 05:42

What Remoak said :8

I'd just also like to add that I know for a fact that the our POB figures are available to ATC as they are forwarded electronically within 20 seconds of the door closing.....
With respect to bugsmashers and pisscats, I dont have an opinion either way.

NZ certainly has some local variations, as do most places, this one to me and the operation I'm part of, seems a bit redundant.
In any case, thats just my opinion.

P.S. Radio..you beat me to the post mate...my perspective is RPT worldwide Ops

slackie

11th Jul 2011, 06:59

I'd just also like to add that I know for a fact that the our POB figures are available to ATC as they are forwarded electronically within 20 seconds of the door closing.....

Really?! They certainly DON'T make it onto your flightplan in NZ... or not that we at the coal face can see anyway.:confused:

Tarq57

11th Jul 2011, 07:09

I'd just also like to add that I know for a fact that the our POB figures are available to ATC as they are forwarded electronically within 20 seconds of the door closing.....
Not from any airline operating through Wellington that I've ever seen.
If they are forwarded electronically, it's not via a medium that interfaces with any of our gear.

Remoak, IFIS is only available for AA, WN and CH towers. VFR ops to other aerodromes, flight planned or not, don't have any notification.

Of the IFIS notifications I've seen that have a POB entered, probably about half of them advise a different POB from that notified electronically in any case.

If all the "3rd party" (airline/flight ops/dispatch) systems worked every time, and all terminologies meant the same thing to everyone (which clearly they don't - I've still heard folk outside ATC refer to POB as meaning Passengers On Board, fairly recently, too) then there would be no need for it.

At my sleepy little hollow, which still gets a little bit busy from time to time despite reduced scheds since the big R, an extra second of two for POB hardly matters. And in the late eighties, when it was genuinely busy, and R/T discipline was more important, well, it didn't matter then, either.

If the powers that be decide it's not necessary, then so be it. I don't have a particularly strong preference. But speaking as someone who, in isolated instances, has to communicate important data to the rescue services, I'd rather have decent and reliable access to it. The most reliable has been demonstrated to me to be a report from the PIC.

remoak

11th Jul 2011, 07:51

RadioSaigon

Sure... if you are air-filing, no problem. But if you are filing via IFIS (which 90% of operators will be doing) the facility exists to advise POB that way.

I'm not really fussed about that side of it, it's the requirement to advise tower/delivery on first contact that I think is ridiculous. Virtually everyone being required to do so at, say, Wellington, can either advise via IFIS or their company holds the information in any case. All the big airports now require advice of all VFR movements to be filed via IFIS anyway, and there is a POB box there on the form.

Tarq57

All the IFIS forms have a POB section, so assuming they have filed a flight plan, or a local movement advice for the main airports, the information is available to the FIO. Just hit the appropriate button on your Frequentis box and you have the info. Simple. :ok:

Whether the figures on the form are accurate is another story... but that is a simple matter of diligence.

Anyway... what happens at sleepy hollow airports isn't really the issue, it's what goes on at the busy ones that concerns me.

27/09

11th Jul 2011, 08:30

Remoak

You are clearly unaware of policy decisions surrounding this as a result of some shenanigans by the various operators on the WN-WB route. It is well-known in ATC circles.

Clearly that is the case perhaps you might enlighten us all as to what is well known in ATC circles.

haughtney1

11th Jul 2011, 09:27

Not from any airline operating through Wellington that I've ever seen.
If they are forwarded electronically, it's not via a medium that interfaces with any of our gear.

I totally agree Tarq57, but thats because we don't operate from Wellywood :ok:

27/09

11th Jul 2011, 10:18

Not from any airline operating through Wellington that I've ever seen.
If they are forwarded electronically, it's not via a medium that interfaces with any of our gear.
I totally agree Tarq57, but thats because we don't operate from Wellywood

Nor any other tower in NZ either I suspect

Tarq57

11th Jul 2011, 11:33

All the IFIS forms have a POB section, so assuming they have filed a flight plan, or a local movement advice for the main airports, the information is available to the FIO. Just hit the appropriate button on your Frequentis box and you have the info. Simple.
Thanks for taking the trouble to explain how that bit of kit works.
Although the FIO actually has nothing to do with IFIS inputs. And I've never heard of "it" being referred to as a Frequentis box before. :confused:

Still, you learn something every day.

Whether the figures on the form are accurate is another story... but that is a simple matter of diligence.

Which is the part-reason we have the requirement in the first place. Well, not exactly. There is a big difference between a lack of diligence, and a lack of all players being on the same page, or even a simple error.

Of course, nobody filling in these forms ever has a no-show. Or a late check-in, do they?

And if they do, it's a simple matter of going back to the original submission, and amending it. Or is it?

I totally agree Tarq57, but thats because we don't operate from Wellywood
In the somewhat unlikely event that a non-local big twin should ever pop in here, flown by yourself, I'd prefer you not to call it Wellywood. Not that it matters a rats, of course. You'll still get a landing clearance.

slackie

11th Jul 2011, 19:16

Originally Posted by Remoak
All the IFIS forms have a POB section, so assuming they have filed a flight plan, or a local movement advice for the main airports, the information is available to the FIO. Just hit the appropriate button on your Frequentis box and you have the info. Simple.
...and the POB entered on flight notifications into Auckland is more often than not different to that notified by the PIC. All of the plans are usually entered either the night before or 1st thing in the morning and aren't updated until the pilot calls on the DLV frequency. So if we "simply push the appropriate button on the Frequentis box" then we'd be passing the WRONG information unless the PIC confirms on first contact!!

And 27/09 is correct... if it don't happen in Wellywood then it doesn't happen anywhere else, certainly not in either AA or HN (HN doesn't have the flight notification or eStrips).

haughtney1

11th Jul 2011, 21:09

...and the POB entered on flight notifications into Auckland is more often than not different to that notified by the PIC. All of the plans are usually entered either the night before or 1st thing in the morning and aren't updated until the pilot calls on the DLV frequency. So if we "simply push the appropriate button on the Frequentis box" then we'd be passing the WRONG information unless the PIC confirms on first contact!!

Slackie, you know who I work for......our agents have told me to my face that our updated POB (pax + crew) within 20 seconds of the door being closed, and that all the concerned agencies (ATC) included, have access to this forthwith.
Would be intested to know if this wasn't the case, as I still maintain that this is a pointless addition to comms (from my perspective) :ok:

In the somewhat unlikely event that a non-local big twin should ever pop in here, flown by yourself, I'd prefer you not to call it Wellywood. Not that it matters a rats, of course. You'll still get a landing clearance.

Hook, line and sinker.....:} But I agree, Miramar international has a better ring to it

slackie

11th Jul 2011, 22:40

Having access to it is an interesting concept... similar to the notice Earthlings had before the earth was destroyed by Vogons to make way for a hyperspatial express route??:}

Whilst POB may be "available" it certainly isn't updated onto your flightstrip or into your flightplan automatically.

Water Wings

12th Jul 2011, 00:52

You are clearly unaware of policy decisions surrounding this as a result of some shenanigans by the various operators on the WN-WB route. It is well-known in ATC circles.

Clearly that is the case perhaps you might enlighten us all as to what is well known in ATC circles.

I'm with 27/09 here. Could you please inform the 300 odd link pilots who probably peruse this forum about the company policy none of them know anything about?

haughtney1

12th Jul 2011, 01:35

is an interesting concept... similar to the notice Earthlings had before the earth was destroyed by Vogons to make way for a hyperspatial express route??

Whilst POB may be "available" it certainly isn't updated onto your flightstrip or into your flightplan automatically.

Sorry for the slow reply Slackie...I've spent the morning battling the BNZ over using a credit card somewhere they dont want me to use it..or should I say..they can't figure out where it is:ugh:

If what you say is true..then its high time IMHO that airways invest all those mullions they make into a bit of software to fix the problem!
And what expressway? the Vogons have already scheduled it? I think we should be told...:E

Bongo Bus Driver

12th Jul 2011, 03:04

Hello Remoak you old wind up artist. Where have you been hiding?

On which page in the Link manuals does this policy exist. I cannot find any reference to not stating the POB over the wireless. You have me worried mate because I always do. In fact I sometimes give the wrong number which usually gets a response to confirm I have not chucked one off.

Therefore my question is. If you already know the POB Mr Controller why do I have to state it?

As for you guys on the Jetstar chat frequency (121.5) don't you know this channel is only for hassling mere mortal pilots who mistakenly forget to select the right frequency. :ok:

Tarq57

12th Jul 2011, 03:39

Therefore my question is. If you already know the POB Mr Controller why do I have to state it?
Therein is part of the problem. We don't know it, always.
If the POB has been electronically entered into the database by the controller at the departure aerodrome, it will be presented on our electronic strips/be present on the electronic flight plan.

Since there isn't actually a requirement for it to be electronically entered by the departure aerodrome controller, it isn't always there. Maybe half - 2/3 the time.

Personally, I think that should be changed. If we are going to have a POB-passed-to-towers rule at all, it should only be passed on startup or taxi out. Once that's done, the controller is required to put it in the database, no further action required. No requirement to pass POB at the arrival end. (We would already have it.)
(This was actually how it was in one sensible incarnation of the rules, many years ago. Sensible, I thought.)

It is interesting that on the plans where the POB is entered on departure just how often that figure seems to change enroute. You guys must be either running some natal clinic aloft, or killing off far too many pax.:}

Bongo Bus Driver

12th Jul 2011, 05:02

Well if you must know if a passenger fails the exam after flighties safety brief they are made to walk the plank! As for additions.......well it gets cold and every thing happens faster at altitude.:}

haughtney1

12th Jul 2011, 11:10

Soooo what your saying Bongo is.......you make the cute ones walk your plank? :E

BurntheBlue

13th Jul 2011, 10:32

From a GA perspective (because we actually enter our own flight plans) :E I almost never enter the POB into the IFIS flight plan, preferring to go with the TBN option. The flight plan must be entered 30mins before EOBT... between then and actual departure the number of pax could change (as i've had happen a number of times). It's easier to confirm POB over the airways once loaded up.

We don't all have fangled electronic devices that talk to towers. :}

If we are going to have a POB-passed-to-towers rule at all, it should only be passed on startup or taxi out. Once that's done, the controller is required to put it in the database, no further action required.

Perhaps pass that one on to the powers that be. If this thread is anything to go by, that suggestion would be a welcome addition to the Airways service.

Tarq57

13th Jul 2011, 11:24

I passed that one on ages ago. Nobody seemed very interested. We don't all have fangled electronic devices that talk to towers. Actually, I don't think anyone has. Unless you're talking about a cellphone...

MOR

13th Jul 2011, 12:31

But the accident investigators quite rightly pointed out that it was a source of potential confusion, and made a recommendation that it be passed by the PIC to the tower on first contact for every flight. Apart from a period in the nineties (IIRC) when the requirement was not promulgated, it has been ever since.

Actually, Remoak is right on this one, as Woodwork has alluded to. However, it goes back to the days before the WN-WB issues, back to the days of Origin Pacific.

MATS used to say "Pilots of departing aircraft shall advise POB to ATS before taxiing, and arriving aircraft when establishing RTF communication with aerodrome control or AFIS."

However, objections were raised to this for the reasons Remoak stated, so the text was changed to:

"Pilots of departing aircraft should advise POB to ATS before taxiing, and arriving aircraft when establishing RTF communication with aerodrome control or AFIS."

In other words, it isn't mandatory anyway. MATS 4-21 refers. In ATC-speak, "shall" is used when application of the procedure is mandatory, and "should" is used when application of the procedure is recommended.

It may not appear in Link manuals any more, but it was certainly policy at one time, probably still is in an informal way at places like WB.

Surprised you didn't know about that, Tarq57.

BurntheBlue

13th Jul 2011, 21:59

Actually, I don't think anyone has
I really dont know what goes on in these big aeroplanes... all I know is I dont have a fangled anything :sad:

Nobody seemed very interested
Let's bleat about it on PPRuNe without arranging for any real world progress then.

Option B. push it harder... Where I live, the local Airways boys & girls are very vocal with ways to improve their service, I have much respect and appreciation for them. Let's just get stuff done eh. :ok:

Maisk Rotum

14th Jul 2011, 02:24

Come fly in Asia and you will hear some real crackers;

ATC; Japanair 13 continue approach
JAL; Japanair 13 continue approach

WTF? did they have a choice-maybe they should just hold position at 9.4 DME by setting the park brake...

and

Asiana: (position report on HF blah blah blah) followed by "go ahead"

Where do they get it from?

and

ANA; (requesting clearance) Nippon 76 proposing FL340

And my favourite;

ATC; Singcargo, 24 standby
SQ; Singcargo 24 standingby

They should just shut the f... up when someone says standby

Tarq57

14th Jul 2011, 04:03

"Pilots of departing aircraft should advise POB to ATS before taxiing, and arriving aircraft when establishing RTF communication with aerodrome control or AFIS."

In other words, it isn't mandatory anyway. MATS 4-21 refers. In ATC-speak, "shall" is used when application of the procedure is mandatory, and "should" is used when application of the procedure is recommended.

It may not appear in Link manuals any more, but it was certainly policy at one time, probably still is in an informal way at places like WB.

Surprised you didn't know about that, Tarq57.
I should have known that. That is the problem with me responding from memory rather than waiting 'till I'm back at work and actually referring to the document. (I don't have a MATS at home.) I'll add an edit to my post further up to reflect the true state of affairs.

Option B. push it harder... Where I live, the local Airways boys & girls are very vocal with ways to improve their service, I have much respect and appreciation for them. Let's just get stuff done eh.

Probably unnecessary, given the above.

Plus, as outlined in above posts, I don't actually find it a distraction/bother.
Airways are more likely to respond to requests made by the customer (airlines) than the staff, in any case, unless it's a money or safety issue.