University Degrees - Best for aviation? Need? (Merged 2011)

[viktor121]

Hi, i've applied to uni this year doing linguistics course, but i dont think i've got the grades and i've found out recently that some uni's do a degree with a pilots licence. So i want to try ideally to get into one of those through clearing this year if not next year

Anyone know what unis offer this? What the prices are outside the normal uni fees, i.e. flying ect. and how it actually works? because i heard some send you to america to do the flying - any prices you know of involved with that?

Oh and do you need any flying experience or a PPL ect?
Any info would be greatly appreciated! i'm reading through these courses but they don't explain those questions above :ugh:

Thanks! regards, viktor!

[mad_jock]

There are quite a few threads on the various courses and also the pro's and cons of doing such degrees on pprune.

Personally I think they are a load of ****e, unless you are doing an professionally acredited engineering type degree and none of them will do the ATPL theory. The ones that are ATPL studys plus some management pish added on are worthless.

[CaptainKing]

Hi there,

I've got about a year and a half left of highschool, and then I've got to make a few decisions about which routes to take, etc.

I just wanted to put the question out there as to which degree tend to impress airlines looking at your CV? As the airlines is the route I wish to pursue and make a career out of.

Any input is much appreciated.
Thanks

[KAG]

I just wanted to put the question out there as to which degree tend to impress airlines looking at your CV?Any degree that will give you captain or training captain experience on Airbus/Boeing/Bombardier/Embraer... product.

More seriously: I think this is a fair question. I would go in a field you enjoy. But I know some people think becoming first an engineer in the space/aircraft industry prior becoming a pilot is relevant. Who knows.

In Canada willing to work on the ramp to do very basic work (cleaning, loading aircraft...) may help you land your first job...

[Groundloop]

Personally I think they are a load of ****e, unless you are doing an professionally acredited engineering type degree and none of them will do the ATPL theory. The ones that are ATPL studys plus some management pish added on are worthless.

That's one helluva statement!

Care to expand on your reasoning?

[mad_jock]

The ATPL theory is used as a fluffer to get bums on seats. The degree the student gets in the end is neither a particularly good degree or much use as the ATPL content which I might add is the equivalent of age 16 school exams removes the true degree content. So the student ends up with a pretty useless degree for anything other than getting the ATPL's out the way. And with the current Uni fee's situation for three years study you would have payed for a ppl, your theory exams and hour building and proberly your CPL as well if you did it off your own back and took into account your accom at Uni.

Your doing students no service at all if you tell them that an Airline managment with ATPL studies degree at Newbucks nursing and hairdressing University is anyway equivalent to a Business degree at a more respected establishment.

And as the poster has just missed out on a linguistics course they will have enough UCAS points to get onto a better course and better university than some old poly trying to pull students in with the carrot of ATPL theory and a PPL during the summer holidays.

Flying is a vocational course end of story.

[ba038]

mad jock - I totally agree with you!

[Groundloop]

Your doing students no service at all if you tell them that an Airline managment with ATPL studies degree at Newbucks nursing and hairdressing University is anyway equivalent to a Business degree at a more respected establishment.

Who was talking about Newbucks?

[CATS Support]

Choose a worthwhile degree which suits your needs
If it is linguistics let it be so but do consider future employability as:
a pilot,
waiting to be a pilot and
not as a pilot

Enjoy a PPL at your local school part-time or if like the idea of outside the UK by all means use your summer break to complete a PPL elsewehere.

Mad Jock speaks sense and is perhaps a bit cutting in his delivery but I echo his viewpoint

[Genghis the Engineer]

I have to correct you there Mad Jock - Buckinghamshire University (formerly Bucks New University, prior to that Amersham and Wycombe College) was never a Polytechnic - it just didn't reach those sort of standards.

But yes, they do offer a foundation degree in hairdressing.

G

[mad_jock]

Hairdressing and ATPL studys would proberly be more usefull to a potential pilot than ATPL plus pish managment course.

At least hairdressing is a transportable skill and you have a reasonable chance of getting a job while between training/ looking for the first job.

And the op is from bucks which is why I used it as an example. The other courses are just as ****e in there own individual ways.

[Groundloop]

You have to be very careful with mad-jock's replies. He tends to spout of very strongly without knowing what he is talking about! For example:-

unless you are doing an professionally acredited engineering type degree and none of them will do the ATPL theory

What about the University of Liverpool's fully accredited MEng/BEng Aerospace Engineering with Pilot Studies?

[Genghis the Engineer]

I must admit I read MJ's post as talking about "management with flying" degrees at rebranded community colleges, where I agree with him.

An RAeS accredited "Aeronautical/Aviation/Aerospace Engineering with pilot studies" is a different beast altogether - it will normally only go to PPL level in the flying, but as a fully "grown-up" engineering degree that carries much weight in industry. Also flying training will mostly not be regarded as a career break if you are being interviewed for an aero-eng job later on.

Deliverers of those courses include Liverpool, Sheffield, Brunel, Salford - and I'm sure a few I've missed. None of these offer foundation degrees in hairdressing!

They will be a lot tougher to get onto as well mind you. Think ABB++ at A-level, including maths and physics, and not including general studies, critical thinking or ladies basket weaving. And a selection interview where they generally don't take prisoners.

G

[mad_jock]

Its not just them Genghis that BSc at Leeds is a pile of ****e as well. And they are charging 4k a year for it with Flying on top. 12k would get you ppl and theory done in 7 months.

This is the most laughable one though

Air Transport Operations with ATPL | City University London (http://www.city.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate/air-transport-operations-with-atpl)

And the cost is out of this world 9 grand for that!!! for first year.

And 3 to 85k for second year? what do you get for second year for 85k CPL/IR MCC and 747 type rating with base check included.

I hope they include in the crisis managment modual how to deal with realising christ I have just wasted 3 years and have ended up with the same license as everyone else, a degree thats not worth the paper its written on and its cost me more than going to oxford.

If I saw that course on anyones CV it would be in the bucket on the grounds they must be :mad: stupid to be suckered into that.

The fact that these courses are even worthy of a BSc just shows you how worthless degrees have become now. Bachelor of Science my arse,

Scientific method err nope
numerical techniques err nope
practical scientific method err nope
problem solving err nope

Whats does the hons stand for? "honest it really is" would be approprate.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Err, yes.

BEng or MEng with RAeS and/or IMechE accreditation, fine; university internally accredited BScs I would always regard as guilty until proven innocent.

City and Leeds should have been big and grown enough to set themselves higher standards.

G

[Groundloop]

mad-jock is once spouting off about something he knows absolutely nothing about!!

Re Air Transport Operations with ATPL at City University:-

And the cost is out of this world 9 grand for that!!! for first year.

Virtually ALL universities will be charging 9 grand per year from 2012 - and City's fee will not change. The reason it was 9 grand before is that the course did not receive Government funding. All universities will now be in the same boat!

And 3 to 85k for second year? what do you get for second year for 85k CPL/IR MCC and 747 type rating with base check included.

What you get for 85k is the Integrated course at Oxford - if the student chooses to do it that way - but they can also choose to go Modular at a much lower cost.

The fact that these courses are even worthy of a BSc just shows you how worthless degrees have become now. Bachelor of Science my arse,

Scientific method err nope
numerical techniques err nope
practical scientific method err nope
problem solving err nope

Scientific methods - Aerodynamics and Flight Mechanics, Quantitative Methods
Numerical techniques -Quantitative Methods, Accounting and Business Finance, Airline Case Study
Problem solving - 3 major projects (also includes scientific research methods), Airline Case Study
Practical scientific methods - Aircraft Design, Developments in Avionics and IT

The fact that City has been teaching aeronautics for over a hundred years should indicate that they do know something about it and it is not a fly-by-night institution! This course is taught by the School of Engineering and Mathematical Sciences so has a good scientific/numerical basis.

[mad_jock]

So I presume you have an interest in these pish courses.

Thank goodness the goverment arn't funding these courses pissing tax payers money up the wall.

And hopefullly it will reduce the the number of them.

Its a mish mash of business studys/low level managment and low level technical knowledge with the ATPL's thrown in.

Decent BSc's have all 4 cats over all three years along with a project at the end which comprises of all of them.

As you brought Liverpool up

Aerospace Engineering with Pilot Studies BEng (Hons) - University of Liverpool (http://www.liv.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/courses/aerospace-engineering-with-pilot-studies-beng-hons/modules/)

Just look at the difference in the course content between an acredited BEng degree and the BSc meant to be the same level of qualification. They have more academic content in the first year than City do in all three years. And the BSc has one year where everyone buggers off to do aged 16 level ATPL theory and miss handling an aircraft round an instrument procedure.

And thats not true about everywhere costing 9k you can do a whole raft of degrees in Scotland for £1820 a year and for the Sciences/ Engineering etc £2895 Scottish students get it free of course.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Here's an interesting comparison:

Exhibit A, City's BEng in Aeronautical Engineering
Year one:
The first year provides a broad foundation in engineering concepts with a slant towards practical applications.

Core modules:

Basic engineering science
Design
Engineering laboratory
Manufacturing methods
Mathematics and computing.

Year two:
The second year puts increasing emphasis on aviation-related skills such as aircraft design.

Core modules:

Aeronautical design, including applied aerodynamics and aircraft structures
Engineering management
Mathematics, statistics and computing
Structures, materials, fluid dynamics, mechatronics and thermodynamics, all with engineering application


You will also take a course in flight testing. Industrial lectures, given by experts from the aerospace industry, are part of aeronautical design teaching.


Year three:
The course becomes more specialised with a choice of subjects. As well as the group design project mentored by industry experts, the individual project allows you to investigate a subject of particular interest. BEng students with good grades at the end of the third year may transfer to the MEng programme.

Options from:

Aerodynamics
Aircraft structures
Computational fluid dynamics
Flight dynamics
Gas turbine engineering
System reliability and safety.


Year four:
Year four (MEng only) provides a multidisciplinary view of engineering design and creativity and innovation in problem solving. You also have the opportunity to select a greater number of specialised subjects at Masters level as well as a foreign language module.

And Exhibit B, City's BSc in Air Transport Management with ATPL...

Year one:
Year one consists of a normal academic year at City University London.

Core modules:

Accounting and business finance
Aircraft design
Airline case study
Flight mechanics and aerodynamics
History of the airline industry
Management, leadership and marketing
Quantitative methods
Safety management

Year two:
Year two is spent at a CAArecognised flight training school and can lead to successful candidates being awarded a 'frozen' ATPL. The minimum requirement for the degree course is to take and pass 14 theoretical groundschool examinations for an ATPL.

Core modules:

Airframes and systems
Air law
Flight planning and flight monitoring
General navigation
Human performance and limitations
IFR communications
Instruments/electronics
Mass and balance
Meteorology
Operational procedures
Performance calculations
Principles of flight
Radio navigation
VFR communications


In addition, you may undertake flight training up to passing the Commercial Pilot's Licence with Instrument Rating. Alternatively, you can elect to take the flight training after completing the degree.


Year three:
The final year includes advanced modules, plus group as well as individual project work associated with the airline industry.

Core modules:

Avionics and IT
Business aviation operations
Group business project
Group design and technical project
Individual project. Plus two elective modules taken from:
Active safety management
Airline operations
Airports and ground handling
Air transport economics
Aviation psychology
Crisis management
Marketing


I can't see much wrong with their Aero-Eng BEng/MEng, but I can't see much science, much maths, or any lab work in the BSc.

G

[yippy ki yay]

Why the f~@k is there a need to learn about Crisis management? What the hell is aviation psychology??? I had the unpleasant experience of being subjected to the New Bucks foundation degree...It was the biggest amount turd I've ever had to experience, taught by "academics" who had zero aviation experience and zero idea about the real world.

Do yourself a favour and stay well away from these kind of courses - You'll end up getting a monkeys degree, from an institution that has no respect and will probably go against you if you include it on your CV

Virtually ALL universities will be charging 9 grand per year from 2012 - and City's fee will not change. The reason it was 9 grand before is that the course did not receive Government funding. All universities will now be in the same boat!

My understanding is that now you can get a loan from the government to pay for the courses which you then pay back over x amount of years...I would have thought that if its not receiving government funding at the moment then the students of these courses will not be able to get a loan for it in 2012

I wonder what their BA programmes are like?

[CaptainKing]

Thanks for your reply, KAG.
I've read it helps if you get a degree that would benefit the airline...
My take on this would be a BComm with specialisation in management of marketing or human resources, etc.

Apparently this would help you not just in the short term, but also in the long run with getting yourself into higher positions within the airline.

[mad_jock]

Crisis management unfortunately is valid, its what to do when one of your aircraft gives it massive amounts over Vmo into hard stuff.

Its a speciallity all in its self how to deal with the logistics of engineering , operations,media ,relatives and goverment agencys. Its not something you could teach an undergrad in the space of a year with a couple of hours a week. If they even had the gumption to even comprehend what the person was on about. And unless the person teaching the subject had actually been involved in such an event they would be talking theory ****e.

Realistically as a pilot you won't go near it apart from telling your family that if you do bite the big one you will be in a sealed coffin and if they hear things rolling around inside the coffin at the funeral don't ask any questions cause your mum won't like the answers.

And psychology its what ever the latest profile is with crew. The old days of an alpha sticking up for whats right is changing to a more compliant to mangment farking you around and doing as your told.

I might add neither of those topics could in any way shape or form be counted as science

[mad_jock]

Any thing with human resources in it will be in my experence be universally hated by any chief pilot. They are the bane of there lives.

And marketing your being payed to fly the bloody thing not sell tickets on it.

[jieunni]

Choose a worthwhile degree which suits your needs
If it is linguistics let it be so but do consider future employability as:
a pilot,
waiting to be a pilot and
not as a pilot


This. Also consider a degree that is in an area that you find relevant to your interests (other than aviation). Also consider that if you are hell bent on becoming a commercial pilot, then degrees such as medicine and law are not the way to go, as some have suggested :=.

Linguisitics isn't such a bad choice because if something was to happen to your health, then it would only take an extra year to complete a masters in education and then employed as a language teacher.

[MTBUR]

It's always an awkward question for a hopeful to answer - what will you do if you don't get this job? Time and time again I've heard of people explain how it is their destiny to be a pilot, their dream, their future. I even had one friend who told them he didn't think he could face life if he didn't get his Qantas Cadetship at the age of 18. All of these guys were shown the door, which they thought was sadistic and wrong and they airline's loss. That said, those who entered the interview and said "well I am an MD, and I spent 7 years on that, and now I'm here..." or, alternatively, have a list of 5 degrees changes in 5 semesters can be said to show little staying power.

The aviation degree (i.e. one that goes from ab-initio to ATPL's frozen, plus management subjects) can be said to suit your real die-hard, where you life is the industry but not just as a pilot. If you live and breathe aviation and want a degree as a backup if your dreams come true/medical goes bye-bye/whatever, ask yourself - if it all goes wrong for you, do you want to still be in the job where you work to support the guys in white and black living your dream, or would you rather be far from it all? It's different for everyone, and not an easy one to answer.

Best of luck, and remember, whilst in your head being a pilot might be the be all and end all a) don't tell the recruiter that cause they might want to see a little diversity/someone who won't have their way with their boeing, and b) if it all goes bad open your mind to other things.

[turbulentmonkey]

Choose a course that interests you outside aviation. The one you mentioned would put you in a good position. This has a number of benefits, say you lose your medical, you would still have opportunities to land another good job. That's only one scenario!

You want to look attractive to employers outside aviation. There's a lot to be said for "life experience" on a CV. Perhaps get a good job after graduating and save for flying with your pay? Just a thought. It's what I'm doing

Cheers

[Genghis the Engineer]

Linguisitics isn't such a bad choice because if something was to happen to your health, then it would only take an extra year to complete a masters in education and then employed as a language teacher.

Possibly not, linguistics is a very different topic to modern languages. That latter is what's needed for a language teacher.

G

[Meikleour]

Mad Jock: What does "proberly" mean??!!

[jieunni]

Possibly not, linguistics is a very different topic to modern languages. That latter is what's needed for a language teacher.


My mistake. I didn't think about the two as distinct branches.

That said, those who entered the interview and said "well I am an MD, and I spent 7 years on that, and now I'm here...

I don't want to sound like I'm undermining anything you're saying, but I would be extremely surprised if there was a MD within the ranks of an airline. That said, I do know two doctors that have PPLs and fly as a hobby, but to say one would go to med school, do post-grad studies and then come out and say 'I only did this so I could raise my chances for an airline gig' would be....weird. Medical students tend to go into medical careers. It's one of the reasons why an interview is in place - to make sure that the student has the right aptitude etc etc. Seven years would also be extremely unlikely to attain a MD.

[mad_jock]

Its means I am a degree educated engineer pro pilot that doesn't have a spell checker fitted to his browser.

And I might add there would be no way I would pass the BSc option way to much essay work with those wooly subjects.

[Halfwayback]

Wrong again I'm afraid!

I would be extremely surprised if there was a MD within the ranks of an airline.

Two pilots in bmi group alone and both aero-med specialists having done their GP time. One is the Company doctor - and he still flies the line!

HWB

[mad_jock]

I know a couple of gas pushers that do long haul. And push gas down route as a locum. The is a CX Captain according to gossip has it, doubles his take home with his layover vet work in HK on horses.

You have everything on the line from ex building labourer to Phd in what ever you like.

The medical types have a really tasty line in locum work on there days off.

[jieunni]

I guess I was wrong then, but I did say I would be surprised, never did say that it wasn't possible because it is. I just thought it wouldn't be efficient to get a MD (which is a very high recognition in medicine in Australia, perhaps it is just the base level for medical graduates in other countries?) and also have a career as a pilot.

So to the threat starter, if medicine is an area that interests, go for it I guess. Just be weary of the time it may take you. For instance and roughly speaking, a medicine degree will take seven years (sometimes five or six), a MD will take an additional year if you elect to do so, a PhD would take three years. This is all before you have begun your internship which is usually two years... Could be different in other countries.

IMHO, I think there would be better avenues but each to their own. Regardless, if you do decide to get a tertiary education, choose an area of study you will enjoy.

[Meikleour]

Thanks Mad Jock from another degree educated pro pilot (graduated 1970) I think your postings would definitely be improved with a spellchecker AND a grammer checker!

[MarkR1981]

Genghis - On a related matter, do you happen to know if any of the UK universities offer a distance learning program for aerospace engineering degree programs? I recall you discussing this in a thread before a long time ago.

Alternatively do you have any opinion with regards to how respected a degree from Embry Riddle would be in the uk? I have been in touch with them before and they definately do offer international distance learning.

Thanks,

Mark

[scroggs]

Thanks for your reply, KAG.
I've read it helps if you get a degree that would benefit the airline...
My take on this would be a BComm with specialisation in management of marketing or human resources, etc.

Apparently this would help you not just in the short term, but also in the long run with getting yourself into higher positions within the airline.

In general, airlines aren't interested either in your degree or your ambitions to join the ranks of management. You are being recruited as a pilot, not a manager. The elements of management you need as a pilot are contained within your on-the-job training (CRM etc).

If your long-term ambitions stretch to joining airline management, you'd be far better advised to forget about being a pilot and concentrate on a degree in accountancy or law, then get an MBA while working your way up through the legal, commercial or HR departments of your target airline.

The days when pilots ran airlines, or even had significant influence within airlines, are long gone.

Scroggs

[mad_jock]

not going to happen its the re-reading bit that gets to be a bit of an issue when the words start moving and thats without a beer

[Genghis the Engineer]

Genghis - On a related matter, do you happen to know if any of the UK universities offer a distance learning program for aerospace engineering degree programs? I recall you discussing this in a thread before a long time ago.

Alternatively do you have any opinion with regards to how respected a degree from Embry Riddle would be in the uk? I have been in touch with them before and they definately do offer international distance learning.

Thanks,

Mark

(1) Not yet, but it looks like OU is within a year or so of having a combination of modules with a good chance of getting RAeS accreditation - and they already have IMechE accreditation (as of this year).

(2) Moderately - we all know they're there and probably a good thing, but there are so few ERAU graduates in the UK that there's no real track record.

G

[charliegolf]

Physics first, and Maths second. End of.

Why? 'Cos when you can't get a flying job, YOU WILL get a job with either of these. They:

ooze 'hardness'
yell 'Numerate!'
are analytical and logical.

All degree awarding bodies will make claims about their degrees. A degree in Aviation Studies will not open doors in many places.

CG

[Groundloop]

Physics first, and Maths second. End of.

ooze 'hardness'
yell 'Numerate!'
are analytical and logical.

If you are talking about these subjects at A-levels, you have just contradicted yourself!