Qantas post August 24

[dragon man]

This is a rumour network so this is what was been said yesterday at work.
Jetstar to start SFO thru AKL in September.
Last 8 A380s to be cancelled.
QF 21/22 SYD/NRT/SYD to go to Jetstar.
Yesterday a number of pilots turned up to start A330 ground school, 1/3 started, 1/3 were sent home on full pay for 1 month, last third sent home on full pay for 2 months.
Lastly Emirates will take 100 Qantas pilots for a 3 year contract with LOA from Qantas been given.
Dont know whats fact or fiction would welcome any thoughts.

[Iron Bar]

By work do you mean AIPA or Qantas ?:=

Actually I think that particular source of your information has been cut off.

Loose lips sink ships

[629bus]

I think EK will probably want/need more then 100. Maybe, 500?

[Keg]

You'll be killed in the rush if EK are taking guys and gals on LOA.

I know of some other things that are in the pipeline but not for PPRUNE until I hear a bit more info about them.

[Redpanda]

Post 24th August.........

"The beatings will continue until the morale improves".........

[TineeTim]

Frankfurt- Gone
South America- Gone to 'Partnership'
New York- Gone
Tokyo- Partner airline JAL


Hub to be set up in KL with BA and Malaysian.

Excess of 400 pilots.........

[Iron Bar]

Regarding rumors

Jq to SFO is no surprise. Ops normal for Clifford and co

Cancel 8 380's??? Will the contracts allow it? Redirect to JQ perhaps.

21/22 to Jq. Won't be the first bad decision this lot have made.

The large number of 330 allocations before the end of the last training year has more to do with where the pilots come from. Ie the 767 instead of 737. Apparently sim availability is an issue also. Wouldn't be surprised if their training is put off. Another inefficiency for Clifford and co to point at.

I think the possibility of being called back to Qf whilst on lwop remains a problem for EK. If that can be resolved, who knows.

Otherwise there's always China Southern. :eek:

[ratpoison]

Redirect to JQ perhaps.
Doubt it Iron, but then again??
Jetsh*t are flat out dealing with what A330's and basic operation they have, due to inexperienced halfwits in management. The set up for the B787 is a fascicle disfunctional comedy at it's best. To throw A380's in there as well would be an impossible feat for them to achieve. :D

[captainrats]

Would he or she give Clifford and Joyce a smack in the chops before leaving

[TineeTim]

PS.

Lots of talk about EK. Will turn out to be just that- talk. Rumour a few years ago was that 30+ were leaving. Ultimately about 7 left. This time will be no different. Plenty will talk, few will go. The rest will stay in hope that others will go and spare them the pain. Ultimately, it will get worse before it gets better. I say all that as something of an optimist.........

[rmcdonal]

Lastly Emirates will take 100 Qantas pilots for a 3 year contract with LOA from Qantas been given.
Either go or stay, don't go and keep a seniority number clicking over in mainline so no one else can have a go, that's just greedy.

[7378FE]

Frankfurt- Gone

Not quite
SIN-BOM-FRA op by Jetstar with QF liveried A330 and crew in QF uniforms based out of SIN

After 24/8 you'll have to read the small print on some QF aircraft, you will find that it will say "Operated by Jetstar Airways" somewhere near the rear door.

As Alan Joyce said at the Press club lunch the other week, you will see more QANTAS aircraft on international services, what he forgot to mention is that they will not be crewed by existing QF crew, but by QF group crew
.

[CAYNINE]

We've heard the LOA thing before in the past, sorry guys but EK will not take a contract/LOA whatever you want to call it pilot.

The company policy is, "you are ours and no other airline will have any influence in your retention and tenure".

EK has always required a full declaration of previous employment termination, there have been cases where pilots have lost commands and faced disciplinary action for failing to have been honest about leaving previous company employment.

I can't see QF getting into bed with EK, not now or ever.

We want the good guys from QF, you deserve better than what is happening to you.

[PPRuNeUser0198]

JQ is not going to SFO via AKL.

Jetstar's focus is Asia.

[Sonny Hammond]

'Jetstars focus is asia'- is that the same as Jetstar will never have more than how many aircraft?
Jetstar's focus changes daily as managements panic spreads when they realise they actually don't have a clue how to manage QF..

Not quite Caynine, a few years ago EK took a group on ANZ pilots on a contract.
Its possible.

[Oakape]

a few years ago EK took a group on ANZ pilots on a contract
It was a 3 year contract, with the 3 years beginning after clearance to line. I'm not 100% sure, but I think they have all gone back or are in the process of going back now.

This happened when EK was very short of pilots, so it could happen again. I believe it was arranged at management level. It suited ANZ as they had a surplus of pilots at the time & it suited EK as they were short.

The 3 year timeframe was interesting. At the time EK was running approx 3 years to command & I am of the opinion that EK intended to dangle the command carrot in front of them in an attempt to get them to resign from ANZ & stay at the end of their contract. But 3 years is along time in this business, things changed & the guys I have spoken to seem to be pleased that they are heading home to their old job.

[KABOY]

Emirates continue to employ and reject applicants daily. They are in the same pool as Qatar,Ethihad and other Asian carriers for suitably qualified candidates.

Contracts are rife in Asia at the moment, the Middle East not so much as their strategy is to employ for longevity not short term. If you are a QF pilot, I suggest you look after yourself rather than think that you will be offered work as a group of pilots.

As a group you quickly learn who your friends and enemies are.

You might be 'QF pilots' but there are also other highly skilled professionals within the aviation industry out there looking for the same work. Offshore you are like everyone else, it will be the cheapest who succeed.

[Andu]

EK has always required a full declaration of previous employment termination, Absolute bovine excreta. EK had/has a large number of SAS pilots who were/are on LOA, and quite a goodly number of Brits went there with Clayton's resignations from their original airline.

EK knew officially about the SAS pilots' situation, and in the case of the Brits, it was a case of "don't tell, we won't ask". I think any of the SAS guys who intend to go back to SAS will have will have had to make up their minds by now, but, with SAS's current woes, extensions might well have been granted, as I understand have been in the past for a few individuals.

Besides, to say that anything is set in concrete at EK is a contradiction. They change policy to suit. What was set in stone in the morning can be dumped by evening prayers.

And if the three year LOA to EK ever comes to pass as rumoured, for those who take it up... if you think you're unhappy at QF, I'd love to hear how you feel after a year or two in the Sandpit.

[VH-Cheer Up]

And if the three year LOA to EK ever comes to pass as rumoured, for those who take it up... if you think you're unhappy at QF, I'd love to hear how you feel after a year or two in the Sandpit.The other man's grass... um, sand.

[Sonny Hammond]

Well if its anything like the QF boys who resigned 5 odd years ago, they will probably enjoy it too.

QF ain't all that...

[OhForSure]

Has anyone got any idea what future pilot retirement numbers are like at Mainline? I know there were many who were poised to retire prior to the GFC, but then stayed on due to their super accounts taking a whollup... so how many pilots will Mainline lose over the next say 10 years to retirement when compared to this potential loss of flying to JQ???

[TineeTim]

You're kidding, right? Put it this way- an A330 Captain was just awarded an A380 F/O slot. Reason? He's 65.

LWOP- Never say never but I really doubt it. Why would EK help QF with their pilot surplus? EK is looking, but obviously not desperate for applicants. If QF is going to make guys redundant (likely) why wouldn't EK just let them do it and then swoop in and scoop up the new job seekers?

[teresa green]

What angers me is the whole August 24 thingy. We all know that date, and it had to be deliberately chosen. What about the pilots who are trying to buy a house, you would not would you, unless you had a motza, what about the pilots that have young families, stiff shi% for them, not knowing where they are going to be or indeed where they might have to go, it brings back memories of misery, and feel nothing but sorry for you all. I hope it works out for you all.:{

[Angle of Attack]

The only reason QF would be trying to find LOA is to save themselves money! Nothing more nothing less, the redundancy terms are quite good for mainline pilots and it would cost them quite a bit to offer it, as well as all the further training cost required to shift all the troops around.

[mohikan]

The over 60's will hang on to the death. Even if they can afford to retire. Even if hundreds of junior pilots are made redundant.

One 'hero' in Brisbane is 67 and still going.......

[surfside6]

The wives of these fellows have given them an ultimatum:"you leave flying and I will leave you"It is implied that the "super" will go with them when they depart~Tough love baby

[Sonny Hammond]

These days the key for a career that moves forward is to work for an expanding company and also not chockers with retirees that won't retire...

The old blokes could retire but no-one can make them and thats that. As for going from 330 skipper to 380 FO, way to enamour yourself with your colleagues...

[Captain Gidday]

As for going from 330 skipper to 380 FO, way to enamour yourself with your colleagues...

Fine by me. One person less to worry about in the staff travel queue. Back to F/O staff travel category, right through retirement. But has to pass the type course first.

JQ is not going to SFO via AKL.
Jetstar's focus is Asia.



http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT3dKP_MOBskmhsXhiuV5vl5o_DXkMh_FjxKnw0mOE e0GctMrST

Welcome to San Francisco (http://gocalifornia.about.com/od/casfmenu/ig/San-Francisco-Chinatown/Chinatown-Gate.htm)

The San Francisco Manager told me before she 'retired' that JQ AKL-SFO was a near certainty. But just a rumour.

[Tankengine]

Retiree staff travel categories are not dependant on rank [duty ones are]:ugh:

[Sue Ridgepipe]

The San Francisco Manager told me before she 'retired' that JQ AKL-SFO was a near certainty. But just a rumour.
I heard the same, but to be operated by crew from SIN ie.SIN-AKL-SFO.

[Artificial Horizon]

My money is on SFO out of AKL, look at the facts:

Qantas pulls out of SFO stating that there is simply not a big enough business market.

Jetstar currently training A330 pilots to be based in AKL.

Uncle Bruce appeared in the NZ papers about a month ago stating that one big bonus about using a Singapore based operator for the JQ 330's into AKL is that this gives them rights to continue to the USA without any further regulatory approval due to the open skies agreement between SIN, NZ and USA.

All this adds up to JQ beginning NZ to West Coast USA operations in the near future, can't go to LA as Qantas is already flying this route and AJ promised that JQ wouldn't fly on the same routes as QN.

Of course when AJ moves some Qantas operations to SIN the no doubt the AKL - LAX will be flown by JQ in Qantas coloured aircraft. :ugh:

[Captain Gidday]

Retiree staff travel categories are not dependant on rank [duty ones are].
Yes they are, Tank. Think of the second set of letters and numerals and you'll realise what I mean with respect to longhaul travel. Sorry, I can't be more specific in a public forum but you'll figure it out.

[teresa green]

Your right there Surfside, my missus would have happily given my super back if they would take me back, and get me out of her hair. That is the problem for some wives, thirty years of independence, and suddenly the ol bastard, is wandering around the place, not knowing what to do. Going from four slides, to dish washer emptier, and dog walker, is a bit of a shock. The trick is to have other interests, that gets you out and about. You think its going to be a breeze but it takes time to adjust. But its fun when you do!:D

[Nudlaug]

Emirates are doing exactly what Qantas should be doing, and should have been doing for the last 10 years.

“But the last thing you should contemplate is capacity reduction. It’s easy to do, but it has sounded the death knell for so many carriers.”

Industry practice has generally been to halt growth when times are hard and costs high, focusing on the most profitable routes that can sustain higher fares.

That strategy is risky because it hurts sales and destroys confidence among passengers, airports, holiday companies and businesses in destination cities, so that traffic often never returns, Clark said on June 20.

Full article:

Emirates set to slash fares to fill A380s - Transport - ArabianBusiness.com (http://www.arabianbusiness.com/emirates-set-slash-fares-fill-a380s-408027.html)

So sad when you see an airline run into the ground by a bunch of highly incompetent managers...... :sad:

[Oldmate]

This was forwarded to me - it is fiction, but wouldn't it be nice! This could make AJ a hero.

Over the last six months we have conducted a thorough review of the Qantas longhaul business. This review has led us to the conclusion that Qantas’ greatest strengths, and what separates us from other airlines around the globe, is our proud Australian heritage, and our history of operational excellence. Today we reaffirm our commitment to these two points, and I will outline our plans to return Qantas to being not only a great airline, but a great business.

Over the past two months we have involved our all of our stakeholders, our investors, our customers, and most importantly, our staff. We have briefed our major investors, who have responded positively to our plans, and have agreed to fund our fleet renewal and expansion. We have had frank and open discussions with the unions representing our 35,000 staff, and they have all agreed to come on board and support our strategy, by offering significant efficiencies. In return we have given them written guarantees that they will be included in our future. We have surveyed all of our frequent flyers, to understand what is important to them when they choose to fly Qantas.

In this increasingly globalized world, only the strong will survive, and for us to be strong we need a global network. In addition to our current fleet plan, we have ordered 20 Boeing 777s. Ten of these are the 777-200 LR, allowing us to fly from Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne direct to destinations in North America, such as Dallas, Chicago, Vancouver, San Francisco, in addition to Los Angles and across the states to New York.

The other ten aircraft are the Boeing 777-300ER, which will be deployed on routes throughout Asia and onward to Europe. Together with our A330 fleet, and the 787 when it arrives, we plan to operate daily flights direct from Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne to 14 cities in Asia, including three in mainland China. From five of these Asian cities there will be onward flights to five destinations in Europe. We have not forgotten the other Australian capital cities either, so there will be additional flights from Perth and Adelaide into Asia, with connections to all of our European destinations, and we are looking at running some international services out of Canberra as well.

We have formed an alliance with Qatar Airways, the 2011 Skytrax airline of the year. This will see us operating Qantas aircraft between Sydney and Doha, offering our customers codeshare connections from there to a multitude of other destinations across Europe and Africa. It will also give passengers arriving in Australia access to our domestic network.

When it arrives, the 787 is set to be a great aircraft. It will be delivered to Qantas, and will bolster our expanding international network, as well as renew our domestic widebody fleet. Jetstar will return to what it does best. It will return to its low cost roots, fly one aircraft type, the Airbus A320 to leisure destinations only, and be used to protect Qantas’ bottom line. It can no longer be allowed to cannibalize our higher yielding premium business. It will continue to grow as a franchise across Asia, but from here on must fund its own sustainable expansion.

As I mentioned earlier, one of our greatest strengths is being Australian, and what makes us Australian is not the Kangaroo painted on the tail, but our highly skilled Australian staff. We commit to Australian’s both crewing, and maintaining Qantas aircraft. We already have our centre of service excellence, and we are going to turn our engineering facilities, and pilot training facilities into Qantas centers of excellence as well. This will not only give us the best operational support in the world, but we will be able to offer these facilities to other airlines, thereby contributing to our bottom line.

We have negotiated support from the Australian government, who acknowledge the value of a strong national flag carrier to the Australian economy, and they have offered us support in the form of tax concessions. Specifically they have changed the way we can depreciate our aircraft, making us more competitive with foreign airlines.

We have set ourselves two ambitious targets; to be voted the world’s best airline, by Skytrax, and to obtain 45% market share of all international traffic into, and out of Australia. Indeed, the entire executive management have deferred the acceptance of any bonus payments, until these two targets have been achieved.

We hope you will join us in making Qantas a great business, and a great part of Australia’s future.

[Xcel]

Nice one old mate ^^...

If only!!

[SpannerTwister]

^^^^^^^^^^

Brilliant !! Funniest thing I have read for ages !!

Are you sure you're not a writer for comedy shows such as "The Chaser" ?

Of course, as fictional as "Snow White and the seven dwarves" :ugh: :ugh:

ST

[forgetabowdit]

I certainly do hope that your speech is indeed what Alan Joyce is preparing to deliver Oldmate, but I think on top of many other things, I feel that there is a lack of vision from management. I do not believe that the management at Qantas believe that strong outcomes are in fact possible with SUCH a dramatic change of business practice and direction...

Mind you, a change of vision is as easy as a change of leader. I worked under Godfrey, and I now work under Mr Borghetti. The company is indeed heading in a very different direction, and that has come about in a very short amount of time. Regardless of ones views of the merit of each strategy, it can not be argued that a complete turnaround is indeed possible, given you have the right person for the job.

In the interest of understanding the expectations of Qantas Pilots', may I ask what efficiencies, or work rule concessions are seen as being adequate to meeting the expectations of the Executive Management Team..?

Is the consensus that a salary reduction is also inevitable?

What lengths are the pilots willing to go to to maintain all or even reduced conditions, and what is the expected outcome to industrial action?

Do you believe that the Long Haul EBA is a true reflection of the real-world market value of pilots either here or abroad, and does that real-world value of pilots in other companies really matter to the negotiations between you and your employer?

I ask with the utmost respect, camaraderie, and genuine interest.

Kind Regards

Forgetabowdit

[WorthWhat]

Forgetabowdit! you’re too far ahead of the game.

The transition starts with agreeing a new strategy and is followed by policy/leadership change to give effect to the strategy.

Once agreed, industrial negotiations, etc, necessary to implement it can begin.

[mohikan]

I have realised that the issue with the over 65 yank bidding back to the 380 and the other B737 guys pushing 70 is in fact a non issue.

After August 24 the 2011-12 training allocation will be a 'work of fiction' anyhow when QF International is moved to Sin and said vacancies are taken up by eager hoards of Indians, Paki's and Indo's.

[Roller Merlin]

A possible (and undesirable) grand strategy:

1. Build JQ up to critical mass.
2. Push pilot contracts on JQ (Cadet contract is in + current attempt to implement part time pilot contracts, but due to Federal court action BB has now quarantined contract action until 01SEP11)
3. Send out messages to destabilize QF pilot group. Drag out JQ court mandated negotiation until D-Day. ( 24 Aug is one week prior JQ contract resumption)
4. 24 Aug - AJ bomb dropped.
5. Affected QF pilots told only options are SIN or JQ contract.
6. Faced with influx of contractors and no growth to EBA, JQ pilots are forced to accept contracts to upgrade based upon Air Pilot Award. New hires on on contract only.
7. Pilot EBAs die off and contracts reign. Coup d'état complete.

When you look at the Air Pilots Award used to set the cadet contract http://www.fwa.gov.au/documents/modern_awards/pdf/MA000046.pdf (updated 1July2011) the minimum pay for narrow body jet captain is around $125K.

...go easy on the hand grenades, remember this is a rumour forum!

[regitaekilthgiwt]

Roller, might have been their grand strategy,

however they didn't consider step 4A.

QF pilots, stressed for the future of their jobs whilst undertaking PIA ground the airline with a series rolling stop work meetings to consider future.

FWA work Australia eventually steps in before QF go broke and make a ruling.
The result of that ruling will have direct consequence on the following steps of your grand strategy.

I really, really hope it doesn't come to this as it is totally unnecessary. However we no longer have anything to loose. Isn't that the most dangerous enemy? As I type this I have other windows open looking for contract jobs o/s. Never thought it would come to this but that's life.

Lets hope the shareholders see sense and replace the incumbent with a group that is prepared to work with the employees to everyone's benefit as the current management for some reason are not and will drive us all into the ground. We are ready, they just want to outsource. Unbelievable.

Oldmate, if half of that came true it would be a good start :eek:

[breakfastburrito]

Roller, I'd take a punt on your hypothetical strategy being close to the money. Dates & timings are no accident (they never have been).

mohikan - DrPepz (http://www.pprune.org/members/177440-drpepz) has been a good source of information regarding the unsuitability of those groups of pilots to CAAS. He indicates Tiger are having problems getting Indonesian pilots licenced in Singapore.

This comes back to Rollers strategy. Pilots will be required, what better what than picking who you want & offering contracts to the now soon-to-be redundant. I'm sure contracts would be conditional on gaining a Singapore licence. That's the place to look, the Singapore rules & regs relating to licence conversions & age limitations. That should provide a big clue.

[breakfastburrito]

If you hypothetically took the current long haul contract and transplanted it Singapore, and did a conversion to the pay rates to keep after tax dollars constant, I am sure there would be a large saving to QF just on their tax bill. I'm sure that's a significant figure in their calculations. This is tax arbitrage.

[Poto]

An Off shoring stategy cannot be rolled out overnight and the show must go on! Pilots taking PIA will be a costly little adventure


Millions



http://bjays.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/one-billion-dollars-austin-powers-above-the-law-blog.jpg,

[1me]

The issue of management incompetence is a subjective one. The decisions they have made and continue to make beggar belief but that is because we (the employees) are looking at the situation from the point of view of making Qantas the best airline it can be.

It is my opinion that management have engaged a course of action contrary to this because their agenda is at odds with ours. Management don't want us to succeed.

The demise of Qantas was conceived with the birth of Jetstar and the decisions made have not been ill-considered, inept or incompetent. Far from it. They have been calculated, considered and delivered with the aim to bury the legacy.

To call management incompetent simply fails to acknowledge that subversive strategies are at play.

[standard unit]

Well said that man and a perfect articulation of what many of us are starting to realise.

"Work choices" was the tool QF management were going to use to deal with it's pesky unions.

The legislation perfectly tailored for QF, allowing it to do whatever it wanted to it's employee groups as long as it claimed, "operational reasons".:rolleyes:

Now it seems bankrupting the company is the tool being used to force the governments hand re the Qantas sales act as a means to the same end.

Bastards.

[UPPERLOBE]

Just scratching around listening and reading between the lines...

What would happen if we woke up on Aug 24 and discovered that lot's of QF 747-400's had been reregistered in say... Malaysia?

This is a rumour site after all.

[1a sound asleep]

This is a fun game

Last 5 A380's go to JQ with a 50/600 configuration :(

[Angle of Attack]

Someone told me Tiger getting a few of the cancelled A380's and configuring in 798 economy seats. Adelaide-Hobart for $7.35 one way assuming its full. And the special is return ticket for $12.00 , saves $2.35. They could even do Perth - Melbourne for $19.00 each way , only on the red eye.

[Ultergra]

Jetstar, Jetstar Int, Jetstar Viet etc etc etc ... were they born on their own?

No.

Have they set up their own operation through their own investment?

No.

Qantas, Qantas mainline has enabled these 'managers' to set up various off shoots of Qantas. Making profits by selling the reputation of Qantas.

Qantas International is making money. Creative accounting says otherwise. PIA, and voting yes, will cut at the heart of the airlines ability to make money. Jetstar makes money by selling muffins. Seriously, they don't make money. Not as much as Qantas makes.

The mere threat of PIA will kill the subsidiary airlines that Qantas has spawn. Qantas is still propping up pathetic excuses for airlines such as Jetstar Vietnam.

Qantas post 24/8 will be the same it is now. However, greater disengagement, management who couldn't give a rats, and pilots still working hard to make a dollar to make the airline money.

Tiger's current situation does not do Qantas managements thoughts of outsourcing much justice. The Australian public has seen that safety is actually important, and that low fares do not mean a safe flight. Sure, Qantas' fare's will remain the same, but greater profits will go into ar*seholes back pockets, and on the other hand you have JB moving current offshore work back to Oz. It's a lose lose for Qantas I think... Labour Gvt helps the current pilots cause.

Either way, Joyce and Clifford are d*ckheads.


Cafe Jamcia Blue anyone?

[rmcdonal]

Sue Bussell (Qantas IR) at the UNI of Sydney last year.
http://sydney.edu.au/business/__data...ell_190410.pdf

At about page 7 she discuss how Qantas played a roll in keeping the Modern pilot award to an absolute minimum so as to keep Australia competitive with internationals flying in OZ.

The recent review of Modern awards was an opportunity for the distinction between a safety net and conditions bargained in individual enterprises to be tested.
The Qantas group played a significant role in the review of the aviation industry awards. Although it might appear that an easy approach for Qantas would have been to stand back from the process because raising the industry standard would impact on our ‘low cost’ competitors more than on Qantas mainline, our view was that the long term competitiveness of the industry in Australia required that aviation industry awards remained as true Industry minima. Otherwise, we would have become potentially less competitive with international
carriers operating to Australia, and we also needed to protect our subsidiaries Jetstar and QantasLink – QantasLink provides services to regional Australia and has some community service obligations. The challenge was significant with some unions taking a very different
approach to the concept of a safety net being a minimum standard. We had to provide comprehensive data and the initial decisions of the Tribunal were then subject to a Ministerial request for review. However in the end, under very difficult circumstances the Tribunal got it right for this industry. There was no evidence of any individual being worse off and the awards provide for a fair minimum standard safety net that is a foundation – not a replacement - for collective bargaining.

In the longer term, the issue with modern awards will be the extent to which unions pursue arbitrated award variations to raise employment conditions outside of the bargaining stream. To the extent this does occur – if it occurs - the more the safety net will circumscribe the real scope for enterprise bargaining and hence the scope to tailor employment conditions to the needs of particular enterprises. If the Hawke/Keating
Labour Government and every Government since then was right – that the move from standard industry wide arbitrated outcomes to bargained enterprise level outcomes provided a key lever for economic reform and growth – then we need to be very careful that the safety net remains just that - an underpinning minima, not a vehicle for establishing new standards and benchmarks.

:=:=:=:=

[Keg]

I wonder if AJ has offered to purchase Tiger AUS off Tiger SIN. That way he can keep it 'in his back pocket for a rainy day' the same way that Dixon did with Impulse. Jetstar's growth will then be zero as it's handed all to the airline formerly known as Tiger. :rolleyes:

[airtags]

Upperlobe:

be careful what you thinkout loud:
for instance AJ @ Melbourne Press Club 2011 - phrases like:
1. better deployment of assets and
2. dodging (not very well) the well placed questions by one print journo (who for the record didn't get a Dallas ticket, ipad or 380 ride and is on Olivia's blacklist) in relation to applying such phrases to basing some existing QF a/c offshore in say... KL or China. (looking back AJ spluttered and choked a little before giving a pollie BS answer)

Then go back to AJ's bullish chatter upon taking up the JQ gig about building the perfect airline - at which time he used phrases like:
1. annualised cost reduction of at least 5 to 10%
2. enhancing codeshares with franchise like alliance (to leverage equity and step around bi-laterals)
3. Flexible asset use by alliance members (any aircraft, any crew, anywhere)
4. Streamlining regulatory systems
5. Leveraging the workforce (outsource and promote saving through labour turnover which diminishes union influence)

oh and who can forget those haunting references to that 'poisonous' Qantas culture etc etc etc

Seems he might just get the last part of his dreamshot before a Coronial Inquiry into a smoking hole in the ground or organised shareholders step in........sadly it'll probably be the former. (Would however like to think the Regulators may take on a bit of the burden and show that they are serious about declining safety standards.....sadly it'll probably only be after the previous)

AT :E

[rodchucker]

There is a sort of natural attraction between AJ and Tiger so they deserve to be together and share the same level of scrutiny/fate.

It would be better if the Rat was not part of that equation.

I also remember that with HIH the CEO had a blacklist of journos....seems if they don't say what the scripted message is then they are not invited to the party.

Oh thats right, the Rat took the same approach with Skytrax.

Someone PLEASE save us from this lot.

[breakfastburrito]

Airtags, Your post #56 (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/456231-qantas-post-august-24-a-3.html#post6554211) is probably the best clear-eyed, logical analysis of the Australian aviation IR strategy I ever seen on this site, particularly point 5. Every pilot should study this carefully & think through the implications.

When you combine this post with rmcdonal post #54 (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/456231-qantas-post-august-24-a-3.html#post6553711) you can see the puzzle begining to form the picture. Kudos to you both.

Globalisation has been sold to the west as a way of getting "cheap stuff" from the third world. A secondary meme that has been perpetuated is that the only way we can improve the lot of the poor in the third world is to "engage" them through trade so we can have an influence to pull up their working conditions & pay. This was merely a Trojan horse, when in fact, the aim of globalisation has been to export the third world terms and conditions to the west. If you want proof positive, re-read post #54 (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/456231-qantas-post-august-24-a-3.html#post6553711).

[Howard Hughes]

I wonder if AJ has offered to purchase Tiger AUS off Tiger SIN. That way he can keep it 'in his back pocket for a rainy day' the same way that Dixon did with Impulse. Jetstar's growth will then be zero as it's handed all to the airline formerly known as Tiger.
Geezus Keg, with thinking like that, they just might put you on the board!;)

[oicur12.again]

"Globalisation has been sold to the west as a way of getting "cheap stuff" from the third world."

Anytime you make investments in the global market or purchase goods and services, you are not only participating by seeking the best return, you are in fact instructing the market to impose the very same conditions on the wider labor force that you appose when they are forced upon you. We all like competition within the market place to bring us cheaper Ipods and fashionable Nikes but we don't like it when the market attempts to influence our own little patch of capitalism.

"the aim of globalization"

There is no "aim" of globalization. Globalization is the natural evolution of a market place changing as new entrants gain influence and compete with the traditional power bases of the west. The last 30 years have seen changes to the control of global capital that have made it much easier to flow to nations with lower labor costs such as india and china. To think that investors would restrict this flow of capital to simply keep western employees happy is fanciful thinking.

"export the third world terms and conditions to the west."

Yes, the freeing up of global capital will result in a leveling of the playing field. Developing countries will see rises in living standards and western countries will be forced to compete. Those that don't will rapidly decline.

The demise of the greenback, the impending default of several EU nations and the increase in pressure to formulate an alternative global currency (http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/10/markets/dollar/index.htmare) all indications that the global market place can no longer be controlled by a select handful of participants. This will bring obvious change.

The banksters on Long Island are under threat.

[UPPERLOBE]

Ouch... truth hurts though.

"The banksters on Long Island are under threat."

Would that be the 50 faceless heroes who gave us the GFC? if so vengeance will be sweet. :yuk:

[Shark Patrol]

Trouble is UL, that they will have all their money moved offshore into some alternative system to feed off like parasites, while the system that allowed them to get away with it will go into recession/depression!! And we will all be taken away with it for the ride.

"Globalization" is the biggest fraud ever perpetuated on the West - the whole aim is to lower labour costs, increase corporate profit and put it squarely into the pockets of ever-greedier and more corrupt management heroes!

[standard unit]

Qantas post August 24 ?

How about a frequent flyer program without an airline ?? :ugh:

[airbus_galley_girl]

SYDNEY, July 10 | Sat Jul 9, 2011 10:32pm EDT

SYDNEY, July 10 (Reuters) - Australia's Qantas Airways will make cuts to its loss-making international operations under a new business strategy to be announced next month, chief executive Alan Joyce said in an interview.

The new strategy, to be announced on Aug. 24, would include "an honest and fairly aggressive view on the performance of the international network and making cuts where we need to make them," Joyce told the Australian Broadcasting Corp (ABC).

Joyce also said he believed the Australian division of competitor Tiger Airways would operate again in Australia's domestic market despite its current grounding by safety regulators.

In an interview broadcast Sunday, Joyce said the current loss-making model of Qantas' international business was not sustainable over the long term. It has been supported, he said, by profitable domestic operations and the creation of the low-cost Qantas subsidiary, Jetstar.

The new business strategy, he said, would focus on "four pillars" of investment, partnerships, restructuring of the international network and exploiting the rapidly growing Asian air market.

Efforts to turn the international business around had been hampered by "some very outrageous demands" from unions, Joyce said. He also said Qantas did not intend to abandon its international operations, just make them profitable.

"The issue has been there for some time," Joyce told the ABC program Inside Business. "The international business has not been performing at the levels it needs to and over the years we've compensated by having a very strong domestic business, having a very strong frequent flying business, by the creation of Jetstar we've created a new business, and all of these businesses have helped subsidise the international operations.

"However, we don't believe that situation is sustainable going forward and we need to make significant changes to our international services as a consequence to the under-performance of the business today."

The Qantas chief said the grounding of Tiger Airways' Australian division had not had a significant impact on either Qantas or Jetstar. Tiger Airways only represented 5 percent of the Australian domestic market and Joyce denied either Qantas or Jetstar had increased prices in response.

However, Joyce said he believed the grounding was a significant blow to the Tiger Airways brand. Key stakeholder Singapore Airlines could not afford to take it out of the Australian domestic market altogether and would seek a way to get Tiger Airways operating there again, he said.

"I can't see an alternative for Tiger redeploying a lot of the aircraft into Asia at this stage and I think there's a big issue in Tiger's business model being successful if it only has Singapore as a base. They need to show that it can work in multiple areas," Joyce said.

"I think their success in Australia has been non-existent to date and I think they need to get the business back into operation here and for them to be perceived as a pan-Asian brand."

Tiger Airways Australia Pty Ltd was grounded by Australia's Civil Aviation Safety Authority on July 2, which cited concerns about safety. The company is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Singapore-based Tiger Airways Holdings Ltd , which is about one-third owned by Singapore Airlines.

[WorthWhat]

At last the big picture is clear. A new business strategy that will focus on:

investment,
partnerships,
restructuring of the international network, and
exploiting the rapidly growing Asian air market.
Well not quite. The workforce now knows what is proposed, but not yet what it all means, or how they can ensure they are apart of it.

Ideas anyone.

[jarden]

We still not any closer to knowing what routes will be axed.

[Queentual]

Relax boys & girls. Sure, qf might be 150 pilots in surplus, but there will not be 1000 pilots axed come aug 24. The surplus after the ek lwop will need to consider accepting a new employment contract for mainline sustainability. Now that might be 1000. What ever happens I hope the captains club called aipa drag the senior filth with it. But like recent form, aipa will say its the junior crews problem, not the top 1000 senior scum.

[Nose wheel first]

Qantas as we know it is done, history, stuffed!!!

I think most here on PPRuNe would agree that the QF brand and experience is not what it used to be. That is because of mismanagement, poor fleet choices, a lack of re-investment in the brand etc. It could be fixed if the right management team were in place! Sadly though, the changes that are comming are going to cut to the bone and will do irrepairable damage.

When this current management team have had their fun, wrecked the QF brand and image, collected their bonuses for once again screwing over the staff and shareholders and gone, the next board and CEO will inheret a company which, if it's not on it's knees, will be a shadow of it's former self. Good luck building it back up!!!

As far as getting their claws into the "rapidly growing Asian air market"... I guess we'll have to wait for the details but I fail to see why other Asian nationals would choose to fly Qantasia (which according to reports ISN'T going to be a LCC model) when at the premium end of the market passengers have CX, SQ, TG, MH etc to choose from. All home grown airlines in their respective countries. And if passengers want to go cheap, Air Asia, Tiger, Jetstar Asia, Lion etc. It seems like AJ is being taken in by the old "grass is always greener" phenomena.

Fix QF AJ. Make it the best it can possibly be here in Australia, then if you still have cash, time on your hands and a desire for adventure tackle the Asian market. To crush the QF brand in favour of chasing a pipe dream is abhorrent!

[SOPS]

What I dont understand is this..Qantas was ALWAYS an International airline, until relativly recently it did not have a domestic arm..International was what id did and did well. So why all of a sudden is "International" no good? I makes no sense at all....there is a big hidden agenda dying to pop out somewhere. I am very worried:*

[Captain Gidday]

Well, that's easy to answer. The Qantas 'takeover' of Australian turned out to be a reverse takeover. First there was Strong and then a whole lot of management 'mates' moved in from both the old domestic airlines. The most damaging of these have infiltrated from Ansett. 'A great airline but a poor business'. Sound familiar?
Wrong mindset, in a nutshell.

"The workforce now knows what is proposed, but not yet what it all means, or how they can ensure they are apart of it."

Oh, easy answer for that also. Take redundancy, start your own Asian or Sandpit initiative.

[oicur12.again]

"What I don’t understand is this..Qantas was ALWAYS an International airline, until relativly recently it did not have a domestic arm."

"So why all of a sudden is "International" no good? I makes no sense at all...."

It’s not "all of a sudden". QF International has been slipping for years. The good old days when QF was purely an International airline were prior to the arrival of serious competitors from Asia offering better service standards on a lower cost base and prior to privatization, which has increased QF’s exposure to a changing market place.

[Sunfish]

I will go on record now and say that there is not a snowballs chance in hell that Qantas is going to: "Exploit rapidly growing Asian markets."

That is an Asian market and it is going to be exploited by Asians for Asians and to the benefit of Asian shareholders.

The only "impact" that Qantas is going to make on that market is a small stain on an Asian mattress someplace where Qantas shareholders cried themselves to sleep after losing their entire capital on an unprofitable failed Asian joint venture.

Pardon my French, but FFS, the history of Western investment in "Asian Markets" is a ******* cemetery of failed business ventures where the West has been efficiently skinned by their erstwhile Asian partners. Jetstars adventures in Vietnam should have been an absolute warning to them.

It takes what are called "Old China Hands" at least Thirty years of trading experience to engage profitably with China and the East, and this little Irish bowel movement thinks he can just walk in and make off with some profits?

Here is what is going to happen to you Alan;

1) You are going to be encouraged by your Asian partners to invest every bit of spare cash you have, or you can borrow, in your Asian operations.

2) You are going to be encouraged to invest your management time in your Asian operations to the exclusion of everything else.

3) You will be encouraged to move as much of your operations and employees to Asia as is physically possible.

4) In support of this strategy, you will be wined and dined by everyone from Asian Government and business community from the top down. The continuous mantra being thrown in your direction will be "huge Asian markets."

5) At some point a few years from now, a stock market analyst will sound a warning that Qantas is now balls deep in Asia and that any downturn or disturbance in Asian markets will severely impact not just the Qantas International markets, but the Qantas Domestic market, which by then will have been "rearranged" to have synergies with the new you beaut Qantasia International (read deep discounts for Asian travelers plus Asian maintenance and crews, etc.).

6) The warnings won't be heeded. Remaining institutional investors who were wondering exactly what the Qantas sustainable competitive advantage in Asia really was will quietly exit. Qantas will start borrowing from the banks, who are always too stupid to see where companies are heading.

7) Within a year the cupboard is bare. Qantas is in hock to its eye teeth and still waiting for profits to be generated by the "huge Asian Markets". The revenue will be there, its just that everyone (the Asian partner, airports, lessors, maintenance organisations, manufacturers, finance houses, fuel suppliers, catering, ATC, etc. etc) seems to be making a dollar or two of profit except Qantas. Funny that.

8) Getting desperate for cash, Qantas tries to rearrange its finances and perhaps repatriate some funds to Australia.... and runs smack into a concrete wall of uncompromising Asian Governments, regulators, financial institutions and a less than helpful but"Oh so sorry" Asian "Partner".

Perhaps you like to sell your business? We make you velly good offer?

The Qantas Sale Act is no help because there is nothing left to sell.

Somebody should tell this Irish idiot that he is not doing business with another Belgium or Holland. He knows nothing about the East - where business is played by rather different rules. Just ask Cathay and Swire, they have only been in the game for what? Two hundred years? ..And you are going to encroach on their territory?

To put it another way, if I wanted to take QF into Asia now, I would have started selecting, grooming and training my managers for the task about Thirty years ago.

[WoodenEye]

Here’s an idea for you Worthy. Would appreciate Your/Sunfish’s views on the viability on the following in principle rescue package.

1. Qantas Unions run a Keep Qantas Australian campaign aimed at forcing Qantas Management to seek prior Government/Shareholder approval to establish Qantasia,
2. A Qantas Employee Taskforce seeks to agree to a Union/Shareholder/Investment Bank backed Business Model which integrates Qantas with other western owned carriers,
3. The Qantas Workforce is asked to demonstrate its support for what is proposed by agreeing a four year wage freeze in return for equivalent equity in Qantas and all that that entails,
4. Qantas Employee Shareholders use their equity to gander support for a Shareholder Vote directing the selloff of Jetstar International.

Now, before any Naysayers howl me down, let me say, I know the above is Sketchy,-Risky, Costly, Etc, and all I ask of any Naysayers who think it’s a lousy idea is –

How else do you think the Qantas Workforce can combat the restructuring of the international network, the exploiting of a rapidly growing Asian air market and keep the jobs in Australia?

[dragon man]

Very good post Sunfish. The Asians will shop off Qantasia's head tuck it under Joyce's arm and march him out of town with a loss of hundreds of millions of dollars that should have been spent on the Austrailan operation.He and the board will not pay the price for their stupidity, that will fall on the head of the staff and shareholders.

[mohikan]

Woodeye.

I like your ideas of employee ownership, but the reality is that Joyce & Clifford think their workforce is scum and would never allow them to have any real ownership of the business. Even if it was the best thing to do. They would rather see the airline fail.

No question QANTAsia will bleed the group dry. It will make the JQA and JQP losses look like a picnic. Joyce must be suffering cognitive dissonance on this issue.

[OhForSure]

Shares are cheap! Lets get every employee to buy a small number of shares! Take the company back and piss these morons off! Wishful thinking? Perhaps. :E

[Romulus]

I think this is a winning message. The Board and upper management would have trouble deflecting this.

You're kidding yourself. This message appeals to you becuase it serves your own desires, the general public really doesn't care that much. Look at the jobs lost at Borders, Pacific Brands, Mitsubishi Australia and ask how much the public cared, look at outsourcing to Indian call centres and help desks.

Qantas being a symbol of Australia to protect Australian jobs is about as powerful a message as Australian vs Turkish dried apricots protecting farmers, i.e. not at all. You need to put yourself in the mind of the general public and find a message that resonates with them, not just with yourself.

This is where professional PR companies come in, they take the messages the public want to hear that support the argument they want supported and get them resonating, they don't waste their efforts flogging what someone thinks is important but doesn't hit the mark. Refer to the miners campaign against the tax, that worked exceptionally well.

[Romulus]

Shares are cheap! Lets get every employee to buy a small number of shares! Take the company back and piss these morons off! Wishful thinking? Perhaps. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

If you buiy enough shares to have a large enough block to affect voting then sure. That's called putting your money where your mouth is. Once you own the place you can do with it as you like. That would be an amusing situation...

[Handbrake]

Romulus,
Your posts are often wise, however don't underestimate the general fear of flying that many paying passengers experience covertly or overtly.

To compare the off-shoring of other brands is a fair and wise view, however the QF brand of safety is instilled in many(Rainmain included!).

Whilst many of us have come to terms with a reduction in quality as manufacturing goes OS, many accept the concept of a dodgy pilot/airline is harder to 'suck up' at 30 000 feet.

[gingerbeer99]

I personally am not superstitios but I read with some amusement plans for QF to make a big announcement on Aug 24 (Asian expansion) and for J* to commence SIN-PEK services on Nov 24. Much better to do things on the 8th of the month.
No Asian in his/her right mind would launch any business venture or make any announcement on any date with a 4 in it, it represents death and failure etc.
Surely Qantas has someone who has some Asian cultural insight??

I also often wonder why QF uses 13 13 13 as its call center number? If I was a nervous flyer and even a little bit superstitious it would probably cause some concern, unless of course I was Chinese then it would be lucky.

[airtags]

Just got an email pointing out what could be the first clues to the big reveal. Speculative I know but there is some logic to the suggestion.

Email identifies a slightly different approach to the way alternate capacity utilisation is described in the IASC application lodged today by QF on behalf of JQ.

Overlay this into JQ's near miracle of gaining slots into Beijing and the logic of a deal to put traffic (or even a hub for a new entity) into the Chinese govt prefered Guangzhou starts to connect the dots.

The IASC description suggests that we may see a new subsidiary - kind of a reincarnation of Australian airlines but not so Australian?

[teresa green]

I disagree Romulus, the Qantas brand is far different from other brands. For what ever reason Qantas is joined at the hip to this country, not many could imagine one without the other. When Dixon tried to flog it to Macbank, Australians were shaken out of their apathy, and a mate of mine a Liberal MP, said never had he and his colleagues ever received so many emails of protest. Recently he said the same on the live cattle trade came close, but the sale of Qantas blitzed them all. Therefore the call for a union cause of Keeping Qantas Australian definitely has merit. It goes without saying at the moment, that this country is going thru a major upheaval, people are nervous, insecure, and uneasy, thus showing in the retail industry, to wrest away their national carrier towards Asia could be the last straw for many, regardless if they might bag it, it represents this country, and the security of this country, and it would be a brave man not to recognise it.

[Romulus]

Romulus,
Your posts are often wise, however don't underestimate the general fear of flying that many paying passengers experience covertly or overtly.

To compare the off-shoring of other brands is a fair and wise view, however the QF brand of safety is instilled in many(Rainmain included!).

Whilst many of us have come to terms with a reduction in quality as manufacturing goes OS, many accept the concept of a dodgy pilot/airline is harder to 'suck up' at 30 000 feet.

All of which is pretty fair until someone asks - which is the best airline to fly with?

If the answer comes back as Singapore, Cathay, Emirates or whatever then by definition people don't overly care about Qantas or outsourced engineering.

Most Australians have an attachment to Qantas as a result of domestic activity, your choices (in steroetypes) are:

1: Qantas: Good, top shelf brand, sign of status etc
2: Virgin: Young hip upstart, not really business but pretty funky
3: Tiger: Air Bogan

Now they're not really fair stereotypes but I reckon you'd get about 80% agreeement with them.

As for overseas quality declining are you sure we even care about that? Where are most BMWs made? Louis Vuitton handbags?

Yet people still pay a premium for them.

Qantas' problems will skyrocket once people stop feeling attached to them as a brand, but do not make the mistake fo thinking that becasue customers are attached to the brand they are attached to keeping engineers or pilots in Australia.

[Romulus]

I disagree Romulus, the Qantas brand is far different from other brands. For what ever reason Qantas is joined at the hip to this country, not many could imagine one without the other. When Dixon tried to flog it to Macbank, Australians were shaken out of their apathy, and a mate of mine a Liberal MP, said never had he and his colleagues ever received so many emails of protest.


Fair enough to disagree but are you so sure of your position?

The macbank deal only fell over because ONE fund manager thought he could "game" the opportunity and make a killing. It wasn't done for nationalistic reasons, the takeover was blocked by a bloke who thought he could harness the (then) magic of private equity by simply riding on the coat tails of the takeover and see the value of his holding increase massively. Same bloke is kicking himself now give the value of his fund's stake.

As for teh little people complaining - what did they or the politicians actually do?

Bugger all.


Recently he said the same on the live cattle trade came close, but the sale of Qantas blitzed them all. Therefore the call for a union cause of Keeping Qantas Australian definitely has merit. It goes without saying at the moment, that this country is going thru a major upheaval, people are nervous, insecure, and uneasy, thus showing in the retail industry, to wrest away their national carrier towards Asia could be the last straw for many, regardless if they might bag it, it represents this country, and the security of this country, and it would be a brave man not to recognise it.


A major upheaval?

I'd say Greece and Ireland are going through a major upheaval, we burped at worst.

If Qantas gets floged the same old line will be trotted out - it's private enterprise and shareholders can do with their shares as they will. We'll all still trot down to the airport and see the same old stuff, guys in hi vis vests on the tarmac, maybe a few more Asian hosties, the lady or bloke who is wearing the pilot unifrom that says goodby wight be less caucasian but that's about it.

[Mach2point7]

This afternoon Reuters is reported on Business Spectator:

"Reuters

Budget airline JetStar plans to invest $500 million at its Singapore hub, partly by adding seven aircraft, its chief executive Bruce Buchanan said.

The carrier said in a statement that it will put five new Airbus A320 single aisle aircraft and an additional 2 wide-body Airbus A330 planes at the Singapore operation to support its expansion. "

[airtags]

So .... $500m ......given BB has proven to be a little dodgy with the numbers, is that counting the full value of the leased a/c ? - and how is the spend being funded - even over a 5 year term that's a bit hit on cash flow.

There's a bit of a pattern emerging here with these JQ announcements - can't help thinking that there's a bit of staging underway for 24 Aug.

Also there's a sudden distinct lack of mention of the 787's .... I suspect we are about to see them in the Sthrn China reincarnation of QF

AT

[teresa green]

Romulus, the fact that the general public or the Govt. did nothing, was because they could not not interfere in the running of a private company, But Dixon knew, it was passed to him, but he was only interested in taking the money. But that is irrelevant, the fact that is got up their noses is what the unions need to know. Any help they can get is paramount to their cause. Don't underestimate the general public. Your comments are about Greece and Ireland, we don't live there, we live here, and to our standards, for many of us, as the polls show, the country is fast going up the spout. At this point Ireland and Greece are not our problem.

[Artificial Horizon]

Just wait to the end of this month when AKL - SFO is announced !!

[hbomb]

AKL-SFO, yes please! I'll book for several visits immediately - to avoid AA.

[The The]

So how much has QF pumped into Jetstar Asia? Does Jetstar Asia give an acceptable return on capital?

[lame1]

The carrier suffered revenue losses of nearly 100 million Australian dollars (US$107 million) in the past six months because of natural disasters and events including the March 11 earthquake and tsunami in Japan
Yes The J model is kicking butt

[Capt Kremin]

Yes.... So of course we then come to this gem from Buchanan...

He told Reuters that the company is aiming to maintain a 20 percent share of the Asia Pacific low-cost carrier market and might need to have as much as 400 aircraft by 2020

[PPRuNeUser0198]

There are no AKL - SFO plans.

[Swimbetweentheflags]

Can someone explain to me just how Jetstar is propping up Qantas reporting losses like that?
That figure is rather alarming and this is in the region they are going to focus on making big bucks for the entire group huh :rolleyes:

Maybe they just leave them an open chequbook to access Mainlines money in the bank whenever they want haha :ugh:
Creative accounting going on thats for sure :=

[Oldmate]

On the asx website, the latest Qantas 'change of directors interest' notice indicates that 255,000 share options for AJ have lapsed due to not meeting performance hurdles.

Anyone have any info or guesses about this?

[lame1]

Be worth about 255 dollars in a couple of months,will make it easier to get over

[breakfastburrito]

UPDATE 1-JetStar to invest $500 mln in Singapore hub, add aircraft

To add five Airbus A320s, two A330s to Singapore operation

Says deliveries of Boeing 787 Dreamliner on schedule

Says may need 400 aircraft by 2020 to maintain market position (Adds details from interview, quotes)

By Harry Suhartono

SINGAPORE, July 15 (Reuters) - Budget airline JetStar, a unit of Australia's Qantas , plans to invest $500 million in its Singapore hub, mostly by adding seven Airbus aircraft, Chief Executive Bruce Buchanan said.

JetStar will add five new Airbus A320 single-aisle aircraft and an additional two wide-body Airbus A330 planes at the Singapore operation to support its expansion, the carrier said in a statement.

Competition among Asian budget carriers is heating up with Singapore Airlines , the world's second largest airline by market value, planning to set up a long-haul budget carrier by mid next year.

JetStar competes with Singapore's Tiger Airways , which is grounded by authorities in Australia due to safety issues, as well as Malaysia's AirAsia and some smaller Southeast Asian budget carriers.

Buchanan said the grounding of Tiger only makes a "small positive impact" on JetStar's operations due to the small size of Tiger's Australian domestic service.

He told Reuters that the company is aiming to maintain a 20 percent share of the Asia Pacific low-cost carrier market and might need to have as much as 400 aircraft by 2020.

"The total (fleet size of) the low-cost carrier market (in Asia-Pacific) is about 450 aircraft today and we envisage it to grow to in excess of 2,000 aircraft by the end of the decade," he said on the sideline of a media briefing in Singapore.

"To maintain 20 percent market share by 2020, we need about 400 aircraft," Buchanan added without elaborating when the carrier will start making orders of those aircraft.

JetStar, which operates nearly 80 aircraft in the region, mostly single-aisle A320s, has about an additional fifty A320s and around the same number of Boeing 787 Dreamliners in order.

Buchanan said the delivery of its 787 Dreamliners is still on schedule with the first aircraft coming into service by the end of 2012.

JetStar is in talks with Airbus over the A320neo programme, he said, but declined to say when the company will order the aircraft.

Last month, Qantas CEO Alan Joyce said the Australian flag carrier is looking at the Airbus A320neo for a potential purchase for JetStar.

Strong economic growth, a rising middle class and the lack of reliable land and sea transport infrastructure have been fueling the growth of budget airlines in Asia, which recently overtook North America as the world's biggest passenger air travel market.

Asian budget carriers including AirAsia and India's IndiGo have been buying aircraft aggressively.

AirAsia has drawn up plans to buy an extra 100 Airbus A320neo jets, potentially taking its record-breaking order to 300, a source with direct knowledge of ongoing discussions had told Reuters last week. (Editing by Vinu Pilakkott)
Reuters (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/07/15/jetstar-idUKL3E7IF13720110715?type=companyNews)

This is interesting because it basically lay out the entire strategy.

He told Reuters that the company is aiming to maintain a 20 percent share of the Asia Pacific low-cost carrier market and might need to have as much as 400 aircraft by 2020.

"The total (fleet size of) the low-cost carrier market (in Asia-Pacific) is about 450 aircraft today and we envisage it to grow to in excess of 2,000 aircraft by the end of the decade," he said on the sideline of a media briefing in Singapore.

"To maintain 20 percent market share by 2020, we need about 400 aircraft," Buchanan added without elaborating when the carrier will start making orders of those aircraft.

This is the crux of the issue, the cat is out of the bag. Lets look at the maths, to go from 450 to 2000 aircraft in 8 years, is two doubling's or a Compound Annual Growth Rate, using the rule of 72 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_72) of about 18% - an exponential increase.

I suspect this is the reason that interest in mainline is diminished, the prospect of this sort of growth must have the exec's salivating.

However, as Sunfish, TIMA9X and others point out, there are "cultural" issues involved, I will leave that to those that know more about it than me.
My question is one of resources, where is the oil going to come from to drive this rapid growth? The only way air travel in the Asian region can grow at these rates is if the underlying energy consumption in those economies also increases at a similar rate, or increased rate. We have already pasted peak conventional oil. We don't have an energy problem, we have an oil problem.

So, if conventional liquid fuel production has peaked, and Asia is to increase its consumption at such a rate, where is the is the oil going to come from? By implication in order for Asia to consume more, other regions must consume less, significantly less. This would imply massive demand destruction in the "West". If that is the case, who is going to buy the "stuff" that Asia produces to enable it's economy to grow.

In short, the growth rate estimates, in all likelihood will outstrip the resources available. The LCC may work at $100 a barrel, does it work at $200 or $300? If on the other hand oil goes back to $30, its because the global economy is in depression & demand won't exist.

The days of cheap energy, and the exponential growth rates it enabled are behind us, any model that relies on it is fighting the laws of thermodynamics and will not succeed.

Bruce, here are a few resources for you.

Export Land Model (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?d9g4o7e01i3fahd) presentation


‪The Business of Climate Change Conference 2009‬‏ - YouTube

The most important video you will ever see.

‪The Most IMPORTANT Video You'll Ever See (part 1 of 8)‬‏ - YouTube

Study those carefully, and think about your strategy.

[Budfox]

From Half-Year Report ended 31 December 2010

Segment Performance
Mr Joyce said all operating segments of the Qantas Group were profitable for the first half-year ended 31 December 2010,delivering significant EBIT growth.

“Qantas Airlines produced a strong revenue performance across both its international and domestic operations, with underlaying EBIT of $165 million up 175 per cent on prior year first half.” Mr Joyce said.




So in the space of half a year how is Qantas International now making losses for the group when it was reported that they were making strong revenue both International and Domestic reported 31/12/2010?

Is this the most blatant lie whichever way it is ?

Also going from the past reports since Jetstars inception. In those years to date they have made a profit of approximatley $594 million.

But wait for it the first year was a loss so in actual fact Jetstar havent been profitable every year since they started. Bonus points for whoever can name the person who said that they have been profitable every year since startup :ugh:

So where is the 500 million going to come from that is being thrown around this forum when its taken 8 years to get that much out of the group?

[7378FE]

Why is everyone worried about August 24th?

It's already here, and has been for awhile, It just seems most in QF have not realised that the light at the end of the tunnel is actually an oncoming train.

The train has slowly been gathering momentum thru the tunnel, and will exit the tunnel on August 24, are you going to stay around for the inevitable train wreck, or are you going to get off while you can?

[denabol]

I didn't enjoy reading this very much but it makes the point that there is a much bigger picture. He also has some sharp things to say about Dick Smith's logical fallacies in an earlier post.

Changi battleground for Singapore Airlines, Qantas, Jetstar | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/07/16/the-battle-for-changi-the-war-for-japan-and-much-more/)

[Romulus]

Romulus, the fact that the general public or the Govt. did nothing, was because they could not not interfere in the running of a private company, But Dixon knew, it was passed to him, but he was only interested in taking the money. But that is irrelevant, the fact that is got up their noses is what the unions need to know. Any help they can get is paramount to their cause. Don't underestimate the general public. Your comments are about Greece and Ireland, we don't live there, we live here, and to our standards, for many of us, as the polls show, the country is fast going up the spout. At this point Ireland and Greece are not our problem.

Possibly TG, possibly.

The general population here knows they have it pretty good, that's why the threats of elsewhere and carbon taxes etc are so unnerving to people. People who have it bad wouldn't give a stuff about a carbon tax, they have bigger things to worry about. And that's pretty much my point, there is no real reason for the public to give a stuff about Qantas, there's no real emotional connection any longer (beyond the self interest of wanting a full service flight rather than a LCC) and there's no reason to expect people who are nervous about their own position to worry about yours.

Unless you get a clear message that resonates.

[The Bungeyed Bandit]

A bit off topic but maybe somewhat relevant, watching the Wallabies playing Samoa on channel 9 - Plenty of Jetstar advertisements but none for Qantas. Only Great Crusade I see is of the red rat.

[nike]

And a great win to Samoa. Well deserved.

[John Citizen]

Sky's the limit for new aviation star in Asia | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/jetstar-rising/story-fn7j19iv-1226096399562)


WHEN Bruce Buchanan enthuses over Asia's incredible travelling expansion, the Jetstar boss speaks with the rapidity of a man flat out staying in front of aviation's most exciting market race.

Buchanan leads the world's fastest growing low-fare airline group, staying ahead of a North Asian market expansion of about 20 per cent a year fuelled by China's and South Korea's massive rising middle classes.

And he speaks with the authority of the increasing autonomy of the international Jetstar Group - which he sees inevitably overtaking the size of its parent, Qantas - and a confident directness on the local rivals Virgin Australia and the beleaguered Tiger.

He also warned the combative pilots union of "dire consequences" if it tries to press Qantas long-haul wage levels on to Jetstar.

Buchanan believes Australians who still think of Jetstar as primarily their locally-based low-cost carrier do not realise it will soon offer 60 destinations, half from the Singapore base of its Jetstar Asia sister.

"We've carried 20 million passengers in the past year after seven years of operation - the big low-cost carriers like Air Asia, Ryan Air in Europe, South West in the US, none of them reached that milestone so quickly. We're the fastest growing airline in the history of aviation," he said.

Last week Buchanan unveiled a $500 million investment in new aircraft which will take the Singapore base to four wide-bodied Airbus A330s and 17 A320s, new routes to Beijing, Ningbo and Hanoi and extra flights to Hong Kong, Taipei, Ho Chi Minh City, Kuala Lumpur, Bali and Jakarta.

The Asian business has tripled in three years.

"We're going to see a 4-5 times multiple for low-cost carriers in North Asia by the end of this decade," he said.

"I think there will be new Jetstar airlines which will appear in other parts of the world as well."

Buchanan "absolutely" believes Jetstar will become bigger than Qantas.

He thinks Jetstar and its main competitor Air Asia have already reached a size where economies of scale will make it tough for nationally-based airlines which used to have captive audiences to catch up.

Buchanan is comfortable with carrying the profit load on behalf of struggling Qantas, which he sees as temporary due to the business market strength of Qantas.

But he sees Jetstar revenue as growing faster than that of Qantas.

He believes some Qantas long-haul pilot salaries are "exorbitant' by international standards and said he would not tolerate any pay deal which would see Jetstar pilots paid the highest Qantas wages.

"If they try to impose those sorts of conditions, the dire consequences this will actually cause . . . we won't put the Qantas code share on our flights if that actually was to get up," Buchanan said.

"We're happy to get rid of it, no skin off our nose."

Buchanan said Jetstar only had a small proportional revenue on code-share connections to Qantas long-haul flights.

"We'd take the Qantas code off and you know what that will do?" he said.

"It's going to put you (pilots) in a worse situation, because they won't have the passenger traffic to continue to justify flying as many aircraft. So you'll wind up in this ridiculous situation where you cause your own demise even faster."

JETSTAR BROADENS HORIZONS

Passengers (2009-10) ............ 20 million
Destinations .............................. 58
Asian fleet ................................... 21 aircraft (by December)
North Asia growth ...................... Ahead of 17% annual projection
Employees .................................. 7000

[waren9]

Thats the 3rd time that article has been posted. Someone needs to merge some of these threads and call it the Qantas hamsterwheel. Same sh1t going round and round in circles.

[Coppabella]

Paul Daff - Ansett, time at Jetstar Asia before joining Skywest as CFO, quickly CEO and Director, Jetconnect as chief executive and now in Sydney setting up a company along the lines of Jetconnect.... yes the large red tailed, small sticker Jetconnect to be based..... Malaysia Singapore??????

[rodchucker]

"If they try to impose those sorts of conditions, the dire consequences this will actually cause . . . we won't put the Qantas code share on our flights if that actually was to get up," Buchanan said.

Well at last we seem to have got to a reasonable outcome, let them go and do their own thing and pay their own costs. Problem solved. The bastard child can get what it needs, some home grown discipline and the opportunity to actually run a business on an equitable basis.

[ampclamp]

Management will continue choking Qantas and using it finance JQ until it is in a market commanding position to jack up fares. JQ product QF fares.
Perfect world for them.

[Potsie Weber]

Offshore Failure!

PacBrands' offshore plan 'failure'

Jared Lynch

July 20, 2011


PACIFIC Brands' decision to sack thousands of Australian staff and move its manufacturing to China has failed to improve the embattled clothing group's earnings, says a senior analyst.
Merrill Lynch analyst David Errington, a long-time Pacific Brands critic, yesterday tipped the company's operating earnings to plummet by more than $80 million to about $100 million this financial year.
Pacific Brands has culled many of its brands to focus on iconic labels, including Bonds.
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Mr Errington said the brand axing allowed new competitors, offering lower prices than Pacific Brands, into the market. ''Kmart is one key customer that has discontinued Bonds and other PacBrands products,'' he said in a client note.
While the underwear and hosiery market grew more than 2 per cent last year, Pacific Brands' key labels, Bonds, Berlei and Holeproof, fell almost 5 per cent, Mr Errington said.
He criticised the company's ''sudden'' exit from domestic manufacturing, saying it relied totally on overseas sourcing without having the necessary arrangements in place.
Pacific Brands chief executive Sue Morphet warned in February of hits to come due to rising cotton prices and increased labour and utility costs in China.
''We're in excellent shape for the longer term, but the near-term outlook is challenging due to soft trading conditions, import price increases and the performance of footwear, outerwear and sport,'' she said.
The company announced a half-year loss of $166 million in February. Since then its share price as fallen 42 per cent. Yesterday the shares fell 3¢, or 4.5 per cent, to 63.5¢.



Read more: PacBrands' offshore plan 'failure' (http://www.smh.com.au/business/pacbrands-offshore-plan-failure-20110719-1hn30.html#ixzz1SazSE5Zm)