Diamond DA20 and DA42 pilot height requirements

[shorty79]

Hi,

can anyone give me an insight into what they reckon is the minimum height requirement, for Pilot's, for Diamond DA20 and DA42s?

Anyone short out there flying Diamonds? How short are you? How do they compare to Warriors and Senecas (which I seem to fit ok).

Thanks.

[FlyingStone]

Being short in a modern light composite aircraft isn't such a bad thing to be... The DA20 has a fixed seat and adjustable pedals. If you are under 170cm, you could have some trouble seeing forward when flaring the aircraft, but I think it's nothing a pillow couldn't solve :)

[shorty79]

Thanks, anyone shorter than 170cm with a 'view' (bad pun).

[japanam]

@shorty 79

I really wouldn't worry too much about your height on the DA42. I've instructed many hours on the DA42, see many Asian female students (avg. height of 150 cm, give or take a few) who managed to fly the plane without any problems.

What FlyingStone says is true though. Since the Diamonds have adjustable pedals and not seats, you may need a cushion for better visibility. Just have one handy and you're all set.

If you end up in the cockpit without a cushion, don't worry! Do what I did to my students who wouldn't bring a cushion on purpose, use that fat (almost 2 inches thick) POH. Stick that between you and your seat back and that should give you enough visibility. Highly uncomfortable but works.

Good luck!

[shorty79]

That is very reassuring to know as I am only 156cm!

Excellent - thank you.

[B2N2]

When you use a pillow don't take the regular "sofa" type.
These compress too much, get lumpy and are very inconsistent in their support. I would recommend you use the "maritime" kind. They are much harder, compress very little and are made of a very consistent material.
Stuff like this:

http://www.bartswatersports.com/images/Product/largeimage-7298.jpg

or this:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41yva4P-j9L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Keep in mind that a seat/seat cushion is also designed to support your back in case of hard landings and even worse...a crash.
A "sofa" cushion will mess up your back in those cases.
Any maritime store should carry them, buy your own so you don't have to share a swampy cushion with other students.

These are also:

approved flotation devices
probably knife attack resistant
suitable to divert blows from your flight instructor
suitable to protect you from anything an angry instructor might fling at you


:ok:

[DiamondC]

I'm 161cm and fly a DA40. I sit on a couple of cushions. They are the sofa kinda but that seems to be enough. I've tried the outdoor furniture style ones but if they are too thick and don't have enough "give" there isn't too much clearance between head and canopy!

[shorty79]

I guess I should get my self a lesson for an hour or two to see how I fit as I'm not sure you're telling me that at 161cm you're ok?

[B2N2]

Be carefull as to how you secure cushions or pillows:

According to the student pilot, he was practicing short-field takeoffs. During the second takeoff roll, the airplane veered to the left. He attempted to correct the left turn with right rudder, however, a cushion was lodged under the rudder pedals. The airplane subsequently departed the left side of the runway and collided with a pole and two vehicles. During the accident sequence, the airplane incurred damage to the left wing, firewall, and left horizontal stabilizer. The student pilot reported that there were no mechanical anomalies with the airplane. An examination of the wreckage by a Federal Aviation Administration inspector revealed a cushion lodged under the left rudder pedal; the inspector noted that the cushion did not hinder the operation of the rudder. The wind reported at an airport 12 miles to the south of the accident location were calm.



While maneuvering on a local instructional flight the multi-engine airplane entered a spin that resulted in an in-flight collision with the terrain. Witnesses to the accident described the airplane in a spin. The certified flight instructor (CFI) occupied the right seat during the accident flight. The right seat was secured in the full aft position. There was a handwritten placard that stated, "right seat fixed in the aft position." Four pillows were recovered at the accident site. An officer with the local law enforcement reported that one of the pillows was found beneath the CFI and that there were two pillows behind her back. The forth pillow was found lying between the CFI and the dual student. No additional anomalies were found with respect to the airplane that could be associated with a pre-impact condition. The Pilot Operating Handbook (POH) for the Beech 95-B55 aircraft states that recovery from a spin will become more difficult if the pilot delays taking corrective action. The POH states, "Always remember that extra alertness and pilot techniques are required for slow flight maneuvers, including the practice or demonstration of stalls or [flight at minimum controllable airspeed]." The POH further states that, "Whenever a student pilot will be required to practice slow flight or single-engine maneuvers, be certain that the qualified instructor pilot has a full set of operable controls available."

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:

The flight instructor's inadequate supervision of the flight, the flightcrew not maintaining control of the airplane, and the flight instructor's delayed remedial action which resulted in the inadvertent spin. Factors to the accident were the inadvertent spin and the CFI's decision to operate the airplane with the flight instructor's seat secured in the full-aft position

[Luke SkyToddler]

^^^ We very nearly had the same thing at Qatar Airways in an A330 a couple years ago, a 1.5L plastic water bottle somehow got rolling around on the floor and jammed behind the captain's rudder pedals halfway during the takeoff roll, caused some quite interesting controllability issues by all accounts but they managed to get the plane airborne and pulled the bottle out thank goodness

Anyway shorty I wouldn't worry too much about it, I trained a young lady very similar height to yourself through her PPL in the katana, it's dead easy to jack people up with cushions. The REAL problem is for the 7-foot-tall guys, they are a menace in those little bubble-canopy planes.

If you plan to carry on to multi engine flying it gets a bit more challenging because you obviously must be able to hold full opposite rudder pedal for extended periods while doing engine-out work. That same young lady I referred to ultimately couldn't get through her multi-engine IR for that reason, just didn't have the length or strength of legs to hold the old Duchess straight no matter what we tried, putting blocks on the pedals etc

[B2N2]

This is the good stuff:

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/graphics/booster.jpg
Universal Seats & Accessories from Aircraft Spruce (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/ap/seat_0cushions_0generic.html)
or:

Noral 4" Cushion Only (Grey) - Free Shipping $150 or more! (http://www.pilotshop.com/noral-cushion-only-grey-p-8707.html?osCsid=6259b1f3495033495ff6b26cff196d0c)


*** Interesting thought alert ***

Curious about the legality of using a "sofa" pillow as it wouldn't meet the fire retardent requirements.
If ordered from an "aviation" source such as Aircraft spruce it should be OK.

[DiamondC]

shorty79 - you wouldn't even need to go flying for hours, you could just sit in it on the ground, adjust the rudder pedals and try a few cushion options (if needed) to make sure your visibility is okay.

Luke SkyToddler - I'm not just short but light as well and was thinking about doing my CPL/ME/IR at a school that uses Duchesses. I'm concerned that I might get partway through and find out I don't have the strength to get through the training (same as the girl you mentioned). Any suggestions on how to check this before I start? Could I ask them to go flying in it and actually see how strong I need to be? Or any other suggestions?

Be carefull as to how you secure cushions or pillows:

I only take the cushions I need (no spares) and they seem well-secured with my *ss on top of them :E

Good point about the fire safety, will have to check that.

[Luke SkyToddler]

You wouldn't even have to go flying in it, just sit in it parked on the ground and you'll soon figure out if you can fly it / what you need to help.

I'm a few years uncurrent from that scene now but I have heard that the Diamond twin is quite light on the rudder pedals compared to old-school pipers and Cessnas, the Duchess and the Aztec are notoriously heavy old tractors when it comes to the rudder pedals. Just go to your school of preference and talk to them, ask to sit in the planes and see how you feel. And if you're really really weak in the legs and you're worried about it then go join a gym for a few months!

You'll be glad to hear that most big jets are a breeze to handle in terms of the physical handling and strength required, compared to all the old clockwork piston twins, so you've just got to do enough to get through the IR test and then you won't need to worry once you're flying a real plane. Unless you're unlucky enough to get a job in a Trident or B707 or something :ok:

[shorty79]

Lots of good points - thanks all.

Luke SkyToddler (http://www.pprune.org/members/5812-luke-skytoddler)
You know your stuff - I just had a precautionary double check in a full flight a320 sim.
The main thing the instructor checked was full rudder on an engine out at take off. This required effort but was achivable. Had to make sure I was pressing the lower part of the pedal, being shorter I seem to be coming from above rather than towards. The instructor seemed satisfied. Just have to watch that I don't lift out of my seat, but then again, strapped up and with a bit of practice, i.e. strength in the claf muscles...
I've been told that I 'fit' and that I'm good to train in either a320 or b737, which is fantastic.

Agreed, I would like to sit in both the da20 andn da42. I can't do this at the flight school because the're based on the other side of the world, any ideas in the uk?

[B2N2]

Stapleford (amongst others) has DA42:
Commercial and Private Pilot Flight Training, Flying Lessons, Gift Experiences - Stapleford Flight Centre, London, UK (http://www.flysfc.com/thefleetcommercial.html)
This place too:
Halfpenny Green Flying Centre : Private Pilot Training PPL : Commercial Pilot (http://www.hgfc.co.uk/)
Tropair has a DA40:
Tropair Air Services | Aircraft Rental, Biggin Hill, Kent, UK (http://www.tropair.com/aircraft.html)

I dunno, go google it I guess.
Out of curiosity, where is the flight school because the're based on the other side of the world ?

[shorty79]

ok, I resisted replying straight away...
I have googled, and emailed, and phoned around, but ideally I'd like to find a club / school with
DA20,
DA42
and a Cessna 172

I can't find any where in the south east with all 3.

So, I'm going to have to visit a few places to get it done - thanks for the links though.

C*C.

:)

[Jerry Lee]

Is your range of choice restricted to the UK or to the whole Europe?
I'd say you can give a look at Egnatia Aviation, a greek school with nigh brand new Diamond 22s and 42s.

[shorty79]

I know easyJet are cheap but I think it's going to be easier for me to hire a car in London and travel to a few clubs nearer to home than fly to Greece lol - alla milaw ligo ellinika.

:)

[DX Wombat]

In the DA 40 (not tried 20 or 42) it is leg and arm length which is important. I am 1.55m with shortish (but not abnormally so) legs and can reach the rudder pedals easily. Because it is a stick rather than yoke that is also no problem but I can only just reach the furthest parts of the front panel on the RH side.