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View Full Version : Ground to Air Radio used for Pushback???


aergid
29th Jun 2011, 10:37
Hi all

Wanna rack a few brains on here.

I am looking for information on Airports/Handling Agents that use Ground/Air Radio communications for Pushback instead of Headset & Cable?

We use Bluetooth as well as standard Headset & Cable at the moment on 1 man Towbarless Pushbacks. We want to change to Ground to Air Radio's with each tug having its own frequency fro pushback.

Does anyone have experience of this set up or know where it used (i have seen it somewhere on my travels but cannot remember where)...

HEATHROW DIRECTOR
29th Jun 2011, 10:59
That seems incredibly cumbersome to me and I have never heard of it being employed. How many frequencies do you anticipate using and how would crews know the tug frequency?

Stick with headsets and cables...

LGWXOPSA
29th Jun 2011, 13:58
Agreed. Why would you want to make it so $$$ and complicated?

ross_M
29th Jun 2011, 14:03
and how would crews know the tug frequency?

A placard on the tug?

HEATHROW DIRECTOR
29th Jun 2011, 15:30
Hahahaha... nice one!!!!

British Grenadier
3rd Jul 2011, 19:09
Why one man pushbacks in the first place :ugh::ugh::ugh:??? , headset man to remain in veiw of pilot at all times in case of Comms breakdown ...................

750XL
3rd Jul 2011, 22:03
Why one man pushbacks in the first place :ugh::ugh::ugh:???

Noticed one man push backs from Menzies at AMS using TBL's. Seems to work fine and it means one less person to pay... :{

aergid
4th Jul 2011, 09:31
One man operations is now a common TBL operation. It is safe and efficient. Pushbacks can be carried out at slightly higher speeds than walking pace without extra manpower.
There are only a couple of Airlines that still do not accept 1 man operations (mainly due to internal issues with unions etc), most European Airlines are happy with our companies procedures in this respect

We have had an issue with the internal cabling of our French made TBL PB tractors which cause breakdowns in communication and therefore Ground/Air Radio is although slightly expensive to start off with (rental of frequency and licences, but the radios are required for A/C towing Operations already)they are a reliable and versatile way of communicating with FD Crews.

The PB Operator (Also Dispatcher of flight) will inform the FD crew of the frequency that the pushback will be undertaken with. The TBL tractor will also have the frequency displayed on the roof, next to the fleet number.

aergid
4th Jul 2011, 09:38
Why one man pushbacks in the first place :ugh::ugh::ugh:??? , headset man to remain in veiw of pilot at all times in case of Comms breakdown ...................


Safety procedures are laid down in the event of headset breakdown.

And it must be some headset operation staying in view of a B747 FD Crew and the Pushback Operator at the same time (do they use binoculars at your airport?) :ugh::ouch: :oh:

Creasy
5th Jul 2011, 08:02
1 person PB is from the point of personal safety much more safe than 2 pers, and by the way much cheaper.

You ask here about dedicated Freq. I mean why do you want to run from Bluetooth which is today the best solution? We still go with cable assist and tried to apply wireless but it seems to be not so unsafe with wire, so we put such invest on hold. I suggest you did the same with radio.

British Grenadier
5th Jul 2011, 11:30
OK , bluetooth headsets , are fine , but when you have to equip 45+ tuggies expensive ,as to one man pushes , using the convential headset , what do you do when theres thunder and lightning over your airfield ????, as for the 747 FD crew and binoculars , they need Bino's they shouldn't be flying ........:mad:.IDIOT !!!!!!, Eeeeiiiggghhh !!!!!!!

Mooncrest
5th Jul 2011, 16:14
As a RampTramp of some years' standing, I'd say stick with the headsets and cables and make every pushback at least a two-man job. We've experimented with very well-known Swedish-made cordless headsets (Bluetooth ?) with a view to them eventually replacing the cabled ones as they conked out. The audio quality was lacking, the pilots didn't like them so we stayed with the cabled variety. If it ain't broke...try hand signals.

aergid
7th Jul 2011, 07:17
OK , bluetooth headsets , are fine , but when you have to equip 45+ tuggies expensive ,as to one man pushes , using the convential headset , what do you do when theres thunder and lightning over your airfield ????, as for the 747 FD crew and binoculars , they need Bino's they shouldn't be flying ........http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif.IDIOT !!!!!!, Eeeeiiiggghhh !!!!!!!

One man Operations are stopped when Lightning and/or thunder is within 8km (Earshot) of the airfield. We resort to 2 man operations using Handsignals...

As fro Bluetooth we have Peltor Bluetooth Sets which although are by far the most modern and stylish of all communication options, they simply dont work...

Using them from inside the Pushback Vehicle we lose the signal, outside the distortion is very bad and sound quality terrible. FD crews complain every time we use them....

Oh and as for the B747 crew comment i was actually talking about the Headset/Handsignals operative....
British Grenadier = BA Pushback Crew member by any chance, if so it answers a lot of questions.....:ugh::{

we have looked into all the options open to us and we (as a company) do not want to go down the 2 man operation route (financially and practically). The only alternative to the options we have looked at is using Ground-Air Radio.

Other Options:
2 man op = After buying numerous TBL tractors for 1 man operations do not want to even look at this option...
Std Headset & Cable = Vehicles cannot reverse away far enough from the Aircraft to be in view of the FD for Bypass Pin removal etc (if we use extensions to the cables they get caught up on the vehcile wheels and/or working parts).
Bluetooth = Sound quality not good enough
Ground/Air = Expensive to set up (base radios already in tractors for towing purposes), and have to get all Airlines to agree to use it. Once set up and working the best sound quality, and no environmental issues eg lightning....

So going back to my original q. Does anyone know of Airports using this technology for pushback purposes....

aergid
7th Jul 2011, 07:19
In an ideal world 2 man operations are the best option but not one open to us (I have used 1,2 and 3 man pushback operations throughout my career).....

HEATHROW DIRECTOR
7th Jul 2011, 08:56
Have you considered how many frequencies would be required - one for each tug? Then there is licensing of the tugs and tug operators... and all... and all. Is it truly worth it?

aergid
7th Jul 2011, 09:59
Have you considered how many frequencies would be required - one for each tug? Then there is licensing of the tugs and tug operators... and all... and all. Is it truly worth it?


As we work at a smaller airport and are 1 of 2 handling agents and the only 1 operating TBL vehicles, we only have 5 Pushback Tractors and therefore only 5 frequencies (licenses).
The Airport Authority have already requested all our operators (35) to be licensed for Ground/Air communications asap for towing operations so this is an expense we already face.

HR200
8th Jul 2011, 14:43
At the airport I work for we just simply use headsets with cables, simple and very reliable.... If there is a thunderstorm warning then hand signals are used....

We also use a minumum of 2 people (driver and headset man) and sometimes a wing walker. Why overcomplicate with bluetooth headsets and G/A radios, more to go wrong on a critical pushback.

Out Of Trim
8th Jul 2011, 18:47
Why not utilise one of the loading staff or the dispatcher as your headset man.
They would be available for their next job straight after the push!

aergid
10th Jul 2011, 18:55
Dispatchers currently do the one man operation as they are the only department with exception of PAX Services that speak English.

More Dispatchers would have to be recruited if we went 2 man operation, which is not an option

British Grenadier
10th Jul 2011, 22:35
Oh and as for the B747 crew comment i was actually talking about the Headset/Hand signals operative....
British Grenadier = BA Push-back Crew member by any chance, if so it answers a lot of questions.....:ugh:http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/boohoo.gif


Nope sorry , i work for a living , unlike the above , you must work for Tight Arsed Handling , use two people , and employ some English speaking staff !!! , if you've laid out the cash for 5 TBL Tugs , ( Douglas , Goldhofer ???) so laying out for this radio license's must be peanuts ..........

aergid
11th Jul 2011, 07:37
British Grenadier:
Nope sorry , i work for a living , unlike the above , you must work for Tight Arsed Handling , use two people , and employ some English speaking staff !!! , if you've laid out the cash for 5 TBL Tugs , ( Douglas , Goldhofer ???) so laying out for this radio license's must be peanuts ..........
:ouch::rolleyes:

Sorry if you took exceptional offence to my comments in earlier posts. I am only on here for serious advice and clarity on a specialist task.

Thank you all for your invaluable input, we are now contacting our customer Ailines to see if they have any objections to Ground/Air RT communication for use on 1 man operations.:D

I will let you all know how things work out...

For info: The TBL tractors we use are manufactured by TLD :oh:

Creasy
18th Jul 2011, 12:41
All I can read here is Peltor which today stays far behind the CeoTronics wireless technology. Range of peltor? Up to 10m. Range off CT? Up to 200m.

The only bad thing is the price.

As for >2 pushback operations CT provide duplex communication, they hear each other LIVE but the pilot hears only the one who pushes to talk.

Test it, they will surely come and show and even loan for free (I had them for month).

aergid
19th Jul 2011, 12:14
Cheers Creasy.

I have contacted Ceotronics and am awaiting reply.


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