Pilot Training College, Ireland (Merged 2011)

[MrToad45]

Well basically does anyone have any information about it? or know anyone that has used it?

Even how to get sponsorship for such an expensive training course?

Thanks

[Globally Challenged]

Be wary - well known for more than average spin / fabrication

PTC PR gone too far? [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums (http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-435278.html)

Ad in loop, May edition [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums (http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-417988.html)

PTC statements true? [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums (http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-439202.html)

[MUFC_fan]

Two blogs I found via Google here (www.pilotcourseireland.com) and here (http://www.life-as-a-pilot.********.com/).

The first one is from the old Pilot Training College facility in Vero Beach but the second seems to be live at the moment...

I suppose the student pilots/customers are the best to review...

Edit: The latter doesn't seem to work as it's a Google blog. It should be life-as-a-pilot.b l o g s p o t.com. Hope this helps.

[aviator_]

They don't do sponsorship,

Have a luck into flybe they send students there. Air Astana are also connected with them

The Vero Beach facility is no more. It's all done out of FIT Aviation in Melbourne Florida very nice facility.

They do two different courses. Integrated and modular. Integrated being the cheaper of the two but with less flight hours and an MCC included. I'm not sure on the modular as of now if the MCC is included.

[MrToad45]

thanks guys! great information. I should ask, does anybody know how one could try and get sponsorship in the UK for this type of training?

[Genghis the Engineer]

thanks guys! Great information. I should ask, does anybody know how one could try and get sponsorship in the uk for this type of training?


use the ******* search function.

G

[ct8282]

thanks guys! great information. I should ask, does anybody know how one could try and get sponsorship in the UK for this type of training?

Sponsorship!! Do let me know if you ever manage to find anywhere that will offer sponsorship. I suspect there'll be many many people who would also like to know.

[MUFC_fan]

I should ask, does anybody know how one could try and get sponsorship in the UK for this type of training?


Flybe are the only UK airline to run anything near to a 'sponsorship.' There are other schemes which other UK/EIRE airlines offer but they're not exactly what you'd call anything more beneficial to the future pilot, other than the chance of a job post qualification.

Flybe offer a PART SPONSORED and MENTORED scheme, each differs in monetary value with the first being a much larger contribution to the course fee but the amount must be paid back in full over a period of time and the latter is a much smaller sum that, as far as I know, doesn't need to be paid back. The type rating doesn't have to be paid for but there will obviously be a bonding period.

In fact Flybe offer the scheme through this school and currently have a number of students training with them. I guess you would just have to wait until Flybe decide to make their next move...

[aviator_]

Have you had a look around this site.

Cityjet are offering one for cadets now. Using there school in Jerez. I'm not sure if they still accept applications but it only opened up a couple of weeks back so have a look.

[havana_club69]

Cityjet's application closed on the 26th just gone :ok:

[MrToad45]

I know! It is hard to find! Well if it is impossible to get sponsorship, is there any chance of banks lending out the money? and if so, would this be a smart idea considering the current economic situation?

[mad_jock]

The banks will only lend money if you have capital to borrow against.

And it is not a very good time to be getting into the industry

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Flight%20Crew%20Licensing%20Transactions%20April%202009%20to %20March%202010.pdf

If you look at the number of CPL's being issued and the number of type ratings you can see that its less than half the total. Also take into account that some of those ratings will be second ratings. And alot of them will also be issued on licenses several years old.

So your going to be putting the whole of your familys assets on the line for less than 50% chance of a job. And there is also some debate that even if you do get said job it will actually pay enough to repay the loan and provide a decent quality of living.

[MrToad45]

Yeah well by the look of these comments, it doesn't seem like a good choice going with PTC! Would anyone reccomend any other ways of going about this? I mean would starting small, working full time and doing a PPL on the side be a good start? Then gradually work my way up, paying as I go? I understand this could take some time, but if I really want to be a pilot, what is the best way?

[mad_jock]

There is no sure fire successful method to be honest.

Any way you can do it so that when you eventually graduate you don't have huge debts to service is a huge plus point.

There are some that reckon that intergrated is the way forward due to the idea it some how gets you a foot in the door that others wouldn't get.

And there others like myself who reckon its not worth the additional cost and you don't get any benefit from the foot in the door.

Its very much down to personal situation, for some the intergrated way is the best way because of the enviroment for them is the only way to get through. Others it would be the oppersite.

[fireoff]

They have changed over to the new COMPASS system - when I did it in Waterford it was the old system and I'd say everyone and their mother would pass it :p

However, I have done the COMPASS also and it is mentally draining - Maths - freshen up on long division - rest is straight forward enough but the time frame with the long division threw me off - still passed that but failed the technical section - brush up on your knowledge of the piston engine!

If you're doing the self-sponsored course though you'd want to do very bad for them to say no - PTC model themselves on Oxford - even set up base in Cambridge recently!

They want your money so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

For personal satisfaction though, give it all you got!

Enjoy & Best of Luck,
Fireoff

[ShamilN]

Just did mine today.

Wasn't too bad.

I received a score of 5 on the Slalom, attaining a total of 24 in the COMPASS test.

They usually do written mathematics and aviation knowledge tests as well.

All I know is that my score was sufficiently high enough for myself, as well as 3 others from the 10-man cohort to be offered a place.

Their recruitment rate is about 30%.

[falconflyer83]

One valuable piece of advice : DON'T go to PTC, unless you want to be ripped off, get bad quality training and becoming a slave of bloody kazakhs students from Air Astana. I can explain more if you wish, but just don't go...

[Apples1]

If you are considering joining PTC then please don't go for the following reasons.

PTC is in financial trouble with their most current companies house accounts showing liabilities of €2.9 million. You can check this for yourself on www.cro.ie/search/CompanySearch.aspxk (http://www.cro.ie/search/CompanySearch.aspxk) Their company number is 357712. It costs €3.50 for a companies printout.

In recent months the Chief Flight Instructor and Head of Training have left the company. Mike Edgeworth, the majority shareholder, has appointed himself CFI.

The training contract students are asked to sign have been found to be legally unfair. For example 'in the event of termination of training for whatever reason the balance of all outstanding fees for the WHOLE course shall become due and owing. This means that even if PTC are at fault then it is difficult to obtain any refund.

PTC has been adjudicated against by the Advertising Standards Authority dated 6/10/2010. They claimed to be the LEADING supplier of pilots to major airlines such as Qantas and Virgin which was found to be untrue as they only had one with Qantas and none with Virgin.

My advise and that of others who have experienced PTC is NOT to go there. If you do decide to go then make sure you get an independent assessment of their financial status and get your solicitor to read the contract before you decide to part with your hard earned cash or remortgage your house.

[mad_jock]

ASA can't find you guilty only an adjudication can be made about a complaint.

ASA Adjudication on The Pilot Training College - Advertising Standards Authority (http://www.asa.org.uk/Asa-Action/Adjudications/2010/10/The-Pilot-Training-College/TF_ADJ_49147.aspx)

They were found against for that the ad breached CAP Code clauses 3.1 (Substantiation) and 7.1 (Truthfulness).

[shoeless]

Im heading of to florida in january with the college(integrated course)..I have a friend who done it last year and is now flying with ryanair(he had no problem getting accepted).He said as long as you do what your told and give it 100% during the process of the training you will have no bother..Also i think the rumours i hear about the college are inaccurate.Could someone please inform me more about the college as of where i stand after i have finished my training ?? Thank you :)

[aviator_]

Shoeless,

If you give 100% during your training you will get what you deserve. What you don't deserve PTC will give to you for a nice price. They will try get more and more money out of during the process of the 14 months.

As far as instruction goes the Ground school was very poor and I heard the best flight instructors have left so just be prepared for a long 14 roads of rumours , uncertainty and PTC changing things at will and making you comply.

[Enji]

I should add that when I attended an open night a few months ago, they came across extremely desperate.

I brought a friend along with me. As we were sitting in the waiting room, before the thing even had started, he was asked to follow someone to a computer so they could take his details.

Then at the end of the night, that was followed up by stuff along the lines of, "tell your friends about this because if I don't get enough students then I'll lose my job".

And a mention of this forum as well. "Don't believe what you read over on pprune...".

Following a discussion of finances and paying for the course, a question of "What are your chances of becoming a pilot if you don't have the £75 000(?) to hand?". That was met by, "None. Unless you can borrow from your parents or get then to remortgage their house".

Hard times indeed. I'd say anyone who has signed up with them and who will pay that sort of money for their course has definitely been sucked in by the 'glamour' of their presentation. A few nice looking videos followed by a spiel of how great the place is to stay with cheap restaurants down the road etc. One young guy who was probably in his teens, with his parents, sucked in so much that he asked if he would be able to drive while he was out there training as well as what options he has if he was going out, etc. Cringeworthy at best.

Though I guess if they can get at least one individual to sign up after any open night then they've done their job well.

[Nearly There]

I cant comment at all on PTC, but the above post by Enji should be ignored.

Enji can I ask what did you expect from an open evening at a business looking for customers?

And a mention of this forum as well. "Don't believe what you read over on pprune...".

In fairness there is some rubbish posted on here...

Following a discussion of finances and paying for the course, a question of "What are your chances of becoming a pilot if you don't have the £75 000(?) to hand?". That was met by, "None. Unless you can borrow from your parents or get then to remortgage their house".

Is there another way for you? maybe work for a few years and save?

Hard times indeed. I'd say anyone who has signed up with them and who will pay that sort of money for their course has definitely been sucked in by the 'glamour' of their presentation. A few nice looking videos followed by a spiel of how great the place is to stay with cheap restaurants down the road etc

If the presentation had been poor would you be happier? and the rest is irrelevant, come back when you comment on the quality of the flight training, but then we go back to the point earlier, if you fluff it you will post negative comments on pprune....dont believe all you read on here was it?

Again not connected with the school, I know folk who have trained there and are flying commercially if that helps further with your research.

[Enji]

Nearly There,

I'll respond individually to your questions :O

In regards to your statement questioning when I said:

"And a mention of this forum as well. "Don't believe what you read over on pprune...".

This comes across as complete desperation, which was my earlier point. I completely agree with you - some of the guff posted on this forum is astronomical. But for someone to come out with this statement from thin air is not only extremely bad business sense but smacks of desperation too. The latter aside, I wonder what one of the first things people attending the open session would do if they hadn't already heard of this forum? If that was me I'd be on here in a flash to find out the reviews of a school I was about to spend a hell of a lot of money with.

Regarding the second quote about what your chances of becoming a pilot are if you are not able to stump up £75 000 in the one go - it was a completely foolish answer and one that abused scare tactics. There are countless stories from pilots who havn't had handouts, who've worked and have slogged it out and got there in the end. A completely foolish answer from the instructor and without dressing it up - a blatant lie.

Finally, for the 3rd point. They can sell their business any way they like. If it works for them, then why not? My point was a general remark that they definitely tried to sell the lifestyle and glamour of the training (which is completely fine!) but one would be foolish to stump up a huge sum of £75k on the basis of a few good looking videos. It was a point for prospect students to research any school thoroughly rather than a bad comment about PTC :ok:

Personally, I wouldn't spend that sort of money on a business that uses the sort of techniques they had used in the open session I attended. I also wouldn't be so sure that I would get my money's worth, let alone that I would finish my training without the company going bust. A simple search online would give a lot of information for anyone.

I guess my main point to anyone is to research thoroughly any flight training school :ok:

[Enji]

Are you serious with your ending question?

[aviator_]

Tennisten,

Like enji said how mistaken are you to post a question like that.

The road you are going down you will get such a wake up call to them being professional.

It's a sad sight because they had good stuff going for them until a certain person stuck his nose in to much and changed personnel. Now I worry for anyone going through it.

[mad_jock]

Why would I need to go there? I already hold an ATPL.

Your not the first nor will you be the last to fall hook line and sinker for a schools marketing hype.

As proven by the Advertising Standards PTC have a history of not giving the full picture and not telling the truth about other matters.

And anyone considering paying large sums of money to any school at this moment in time must have the IQ of a small house brick.

Please note I used ANY school. CAbair has just gone tits up and I suspect there will be quite a few more over the winter. I might add most of them go in Jan after they have raped the market of trial flight xmas presents.

[BigGrecian]

I'd also like to add you can't get the full picture on Pprune.

Every time a negative post about PTC appears it is almost immediately moderated and removed.

There was a thread about the poor finances and flying ceasing - it was removed.

Now I don't know what is going on there and don't pretend to - but when threads and posts are removed instantly it does worry me a little bit - and I'm not even due to train there.

[Enji]

..and you honestly don't see any flaws within that question?

[mad_jock]

How many of you who are making negative comments about PTC have actually attended and passed the assessment day?

And how does that actually affect anything?

You already have an offical report that they lie. What makes you think they are not going to lie to you on the day?

Assement days are a bit of physiology which is all part of the sales pitch. If you make someone jump through hoops to obtain a product they think the product is special. They get a feeling that they are part of an elite group and in someway better than others.

When in actual fact you have just been confirmed in the group of medians which marketing deptments love because they know how your brain ticks.

We don't need to go to the day to know what they are like and there methods.

[mad_jock]

Again think who told you this fact and who in the past have been proven to be liberal with the truth.

Also as well if you really do get someone that is hopeless its very very hard money that you earn off them and you don't make as much if any profit off them.

Also as well you need a constant stream of punters, you can't have 50 turn up on your door when you only have 10 aircraft and 15 instructors ( I don't have a clue how many they have) So you just take the best of what turns up on the day to fill all your slots be that 30% or 50% for that selection. If a previous course is over running you may take less than that. Which is where the difficulties come in. Also this allows you to charge a premium for what the punter thinks is an elite product when in relality it is no different to any of the others.

If your staff are salaried you have a set fixed salary costs. If you worked out that you need to get through 100 folk in a year at X amount per head and you only are able to shift through 70 your unit cost per student has soared. If some of them fail to complete you also have spare assets sitting there which need paid for hence them wanting to crucify you if you leave.

Apart from which if you charge for the selection day its quite a tidy little income stream for not alot of work.

[Halfwayback]

Just trying to set the record straight. One of the many things Moderators can do is see all deleted posts - and if we wanted to, re-instate them.

BigG I have just checked the whole of this thread and there have been two deletions - one by the poster and the other that said 'Check your PM'. The latter type are deleted instantly and I have no idea why Pilotbear deleted his!

There is no Pprune tie in with anyone. Pprune is owned entirely by the name you see at the bottom of this page - Internet Brands who are an American company that operates numerous similar sites globally - this is their professional aviation one. IB earn their money selling advertising and it is a mega business and were bought last September for $640 million. Look them up on Wiki! Do you honestly believe they would want to cosy up to PTC - a school they probably have never heard of?

This site is moderated voluntarily by those working in the aviation field and the majority are commercial pilots but the whole spectrum of commercial aviation is covered and other aspects of aviation also. There are strict rules (that you signed up to on joining) about posting and whilst there is a degree of anonimity on the site any potentially libellous post will be removed in exactly the same way that 'outing' by naming people is not tolerated.

So - sorry to crush the myth! :)

Halfwayback

[Bigstrongd]

When I was doing my Class I in Dublin last year I remember meeting a young lad who had signed up with PTC, he came across as a bit dim but he told me that during his assessment he was told by the instructor that he was one of the best they'd ever seen!

I can only presume he handed over the money there and then after receiving such a concrete endorsement of his abilities - I just hope for his own sake it was worth it!

[pilotbear]

well, halfway back you certainly have fallen for your own myth...:)

I have had several threads and posts removed from pprune BY the moderators, and I know for a fact that my deleted negative PTC threads were permanently deleted from your records. Particularly the one that Big G is referring to.
All of my posts told documented fact about PTC, the management, the finances and the quality of the training. There is so much more.....
and yes, my last post on this thread here was removed by me
There is only one qualification you need for PTC...the ability to sign your name on the cheque...:ok:
Perhaps you would like to re-examine your moderator staff list before you make the comment about affiliations....not that I personally believe the person in question has anything to do with this apparent censorship nevertheless.....you made the statement.
All rumors are potentially libellous, who decides? or does it depend on the advertising revenue from the named person/company:E

[Halfwayback]

and I know for a fact that my deleted negative PTC threads were permanently deleted from your records.

Sorry Pilotbear - not often right but wrong again. They are still there and I (and other Mods) can read them all - I just have (tho' why I am wasting time down route doing this is another question :mad:).

Since August 2009 to date you have had a total of 5 posts deleted by 4 Moderators and three of those posts refer to PTC. On 5 Dec '09 you were pushing the limit with links to PTC and giving their pass rate - remember? That gave you a 7 day ban - and it wasn't WWW as you thought! You didn't post again until 23 Sep '11.

Additionally to those above, the thread you started on 23 September was moved out of sight due to the content.

No myth - just fact. End of.

HWB

[falconflyer83]

To Halfwayback :

Why would posts (such as the one from Sept. '11), just pointing out facts about PTC, be deleted by moderators ? You say "due to the content". What kind of reproach can you make to such a post, apart from being very bad publicity to PTC ?

I've been there. I spent almost 2 years training with PTC. Those 2 years were 2 years of fighting to get something I had paid too much money for.

WHY NOT TO TRAIN WITH (or against) PTC :

- over priced : selling American flight time at European price. For a plane that costs 180$/h to operate (all inclusive except instructor)(and you will notice I'm speaking in DOLLARS), what YOU pay : 525€/h

- material/personnel : massive shortage in planes and instructors. Some get grounded for WEEKS before they can get to an airplane.

- CUSTOMER relationship : "at PTC, we tend to work as an airline". Fine. That's a very noble goal with regards to training. That's not when you're the management staff, student support staff or anything else than an instructor. First thing I was told by basically the head of the school who was there by coincidence when I made a remark to them : "you wouldn't say that in an airline". FINE again, let's work as an airline, PAY ME and I'l just shut up and go to work. They abuse of that commercial argument to manipulate students and make them do what THEY want them to do. They "forget" that the students are CUSTOMERS before they are students.

- instructors : even though PTC are a "professionnal flight school", training "professionnal pilot" who put "professionalism" at the top of their ads, WHO is professionnal pilot among the team there ? When I was there 1 year ago, TWO instructors were, only ONE having been engaged in real world ops on a jet, and they managed to fire that very guy. Except those two, NOT A SINGLE GUY who had ever flown a plane bigger than a 2x180hp Seminole !!!
They say they train us "like professionnals", but NONE OF THEM has ever been in the commercial world, apart from a flight attendant !!! The instructors were really nice overall, some were quite good, but they just have NO CLUE of what flying commercially is like.

- cadet pilots contracts : they way PTC students were split when I was there was :
~50 independant students, paying for their course
~150 cadet pilots from an Eastern Europe airline
Needless to say this contract for 3/4 of the students affected the treatment you received depending on wether you are a cadet, or an independant. Some of these guys were violent to other PTC students => not a problem. Some were drinking underage in the US => not a problem. Some caused a lot of trouble on the US campus => not a problem. You would do HALF of it while being an independant, your visa was cancelled, go home, good bye, see you in Hell !

To finish on something positive about them : facilities in Ireland are great. The planes are just 5 wrecks that should be in a plane cemetery or recycled as Coke cans, but the houses and the new building are nice.
To make it short, there is no longer a single reason to sign with PTC. Ah, yes, maybe the fancy uniform with overrated stripes on your epaulettes and the nice pics you'll upload on facebook to show off to your friends. That's all.

PS 1 : These are just FACTS, from someone who has been there, not just rumours or "I hear that..". I hope this post will be seen by others, who will take it as valuable information before they sign with PTC. Otherwise, that says it all about PPRuNe.

PS 2 : no offense meant to anyone personally, this is just about PTC as a (dis)organisation.

[BigGrecian]

The posts deleted were regarding PTC's financial liabilities and the fact their fleets were grounded. I'm not sure whether they were moderated or deleted by the original poster.

In their defense - and more to present a balanced argument than anythign else.

They "forget" that the students are CUSTOMERS before they are students.

I think any school where the instructor treats you as a customer is going about training the wrong way, if your customer relationship gets in the way of your studnet relationship then your training can get "distorted"

They are there to train you to be a pilot not to treat you as a customer. That's what you have management for and accounting / student services.

You don't go into university or college and expect to be the customer - you are a student.

instructors : even though PTC are a "professionnal flight school", training "professionnal pilot" who put "professionalism" at the top of their ads, WHO is professionnal pilot among the team there ? When I was there 1 year ago, TWO instructors were, only ONE having been engaged in real world ops on a jet, and they managed to fire that very guy. Except those two, NOT A SINGLE GUY who had ever flown a plane bigger than a 2x180hp Seminole !!!

That doesnt' make them any less of a professional and are probably far more skilled and qualified at their job than taking someone who has flown jets previously.

[falconflyer83]

To BigGrecian :

About the posts, ask the one who wrote them, they were deleted by moderators.

"I think any school where the instructor treats you as a customer is going about training the wrong way"
-> That's exactly what I'm thinking when we're talking about INSTRUCTORS. The LESSONS should be totally airline orientated, so that the students know how it is to work.
Now, when it comes to the management team or student support, that's a different story in my opinion. I don't know if you've been to PTC, but I can assure you if you paid 100K€ for what you get in terms of service, you'd be REALLY annoyed, to say it politely. I think we have the same opinion, but just that mine was misunderstood in my previous post ;-)

"That doesnt' make them any less of a professional and are probably far more skilled and qualified at their job than taking someone who has flown jets previously."
-> True. They may be good at teaching you how to fly a Seminole. But is that what you're there for ? If they haven't been involved in real ops, how can they know where they're sending you ? And hence, how can they TEACH you how to do it ? They send you to the commercial world without a CLUE of what it's like. Personally, if I just wanted to learn how to fly a light twin in IFR, I could have gone to the airclub just 10 miles from my house instead of crossing the Atlantic for that, it would have cost me half the price. What I expected (and what I was told by the staff when I enrolled) was to find EXPERIENCED instructors. The ones who will teach you far beyond manipulating blue levers or red levers. They will teach you the things that will make a big difference when you get to an interview, the ones who will tell you from the very first hour of flight "do it this way because that's how you're gonna do it in your career". I've flown with that type of guy, and swear, you feel the difference, from the pre flight briefing to the post flight debrief.
Again I don't know how well you know PTC, but apart from ONE guy, all my instructors were graduates from PTC/FIT. Some who don't even care about you ("I don't like my job, I'm just doing it because I need to build hours to get on a jet").

[falconflyer83]

To SoCal :

I was a bit naïve indeed. I almost left, but decided to stay when they corrected the element that annoyed me the most (instructor experience). I didn't go to the US and visit them, but I talked to other students : all of us who did some research on websites like PPRuNe got good feedbacks on the school until we were there ouselves. When I went to Waterford for the assesment, chatted with a couple students on site, their opinion was overall good (I heard afterwards the young "student" guiding me for my tour of the school was also the CEO's son...), not all but part of the instructors present that day were previously flying commercially, and I couldn't imagine one could lie so much. Youth and lack of experience...

Anyway, I have no regrets, I got the job I have been dreaming of for years (needless to say PTC did not give a single piece of help, they even dropped the "interview and CV preparation course" that is supposed to be part of the course). My point is not to say how clever or how stupid I am, nor to simply backstab PTC for pleasure. It's all about prospective students. I want them to have a broader view of PTC than I had before they get into it, because that's what I would have wanted myself. If after having read all that they still want to train at PTC, fine. I just want to warn them.

[Habbex]

Why didn't I read this before applying for the testing! Damn I wonder if could get my money back..