PIFR vs CIR

[dickair]

Hi All,

I am a GA pilot wanting to broaden my flying training. Looking into a CIR vs PIFR. I want to do a CIR but most courses are for MECIR whereas I would like to do it for a single? Any thoughts on what is best practise?

Cheers

[tmpffisch]

Could be a crazy idea. Why not ASK to do it in a single. You are the customer aren't you? :confused:

[dickair]

Interesting thing is I have asked and many decline to do them in a single (SA especially)

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Find an experienced instructor who will do a CIR in a single. Once you have it get CASA to issue a PIFR with full privelages and the navaids you have on the CIR. Maintain your CIR, but for private flights the recency requirements of the PIFR can be handy - but use them sensibly!

Dr :8

[Flopt]

Did my initial CIR in a C210 [some of the training in PA28s]...thought it was quite economical...
[just looked up old logbooks: 14.2 in AST300 'sim' and 11.6 in aircraft inc. test spread over 7 months]

...then after second renewal ,CPL, ME endos on PA44,BE76,C310 went to MECIR [1.0 in 'sim' &11.9in aircraft inc test spread over 3 mnths...]

Have never 'worked' in aviation just did it to improve my 'skills& safety'...

My advice would be to find someone happy to do CIR ....I don't think starting with a very basic PIFR and working your way up in bits is a safe plan...[ifr on top is not very smart , without approaches]...but if you get a PIFR [it's just a book entry and a few extra dollars] with your CIR you can then do 2 yearly renewals [operate on PIFR for 12mnths]...as long as you practice enough to stay safe...and use it VERY JUDICIOUSLY !

...never launch from crappy wx into crappier wx...don't risk your neck or anyone else's if you suspect you are not up to it...just common sense but extra important with SE.

It is very good for discipline and improving flying skills...go for it.

Flopt

Dang-nab-it...worries me when the Doc and I think alike....I could get 'moderated'...

[Al Fentanyl]

CIR or PIFR can be done on whatever aircraft you want - only limitation is that if said rating is not ME, then the IFR privileges (command = commercial) are limited to SE IFR Ops.

I had a SE PIFR done in a PA28, including IF departures, holds on VOR/NDB, VOR, DME & NDB approaches.

Talk to Rick Wedgewood at Avalon Air Caboolture; he knows more about the PIFR than CASA does.

[dickair]

Thanks for the wise tips. I think I will have to do my IFR outside South Australia as there not much on the go in the way of training. Will focus on doing the IREX (doesnt look simple) then do a CIR. Its just the recentcy requirements are rigourous (as they should). Will be using it for PVT flying hence PIFR!

[Old Akro]

I did PIFR in a single - a procedure at a time with weeks in between. My logic was that it meant that I had some time to develop bad habits or forget stuff between sessions. Once I had all the procedure ratings its just a flight test and the all important paperwork to it a CIR. If you do CIR, you should get PIFR as well. The relaxed renewal & recency requirements can be useful.

[BoatsNHos]

Will focus on doing the IREX (doesnt look simple)

It's really not that bad, and as sad as it sounds I actually enjoyed learning the theory. Buy the Bob Tait study guide (and if you don't already have them, current CAOs/CARs/AIP/ERSA/DAPs/ERCs/TACs/PCA), and set aside about a week to go through the guide cover to cover. If you do that you could probably pass the exam without even opening the CAO/CAR/AIP, but given you have 3.5 hours there's plenty of time to double check your answers by finding the relevant references. Although many of the rules are poorly written, most of them have a basis in common sense, and Bob does a great job in pointing that out.

Tips:
- While studying, don't look at the references given in the study guide and try to find them yourself (CASA constantly move stuff around in the AIP anyway, so it's impossible for Bob to keep the references 100% up to date). You'll soon realise you're constantly turning to the same sections and get pretty handy at navigating through the books.

- You aren't allowed to Tab the CAO/CAR, but there are only a few sections you really need for the IREX anyway (i.e. aircraft equipment, radar, PPL/CPL/IR/NVFR Minimum/Recent experience requirements), so just fold the corners of those pages over for quick reference and highlight the key words. I even removed some big chunks of the CAO for the exam.

- If you already have things highlighted (highlit?), use a different colour for the IREX stuff so it's easy to pick out. Don't highlight whole paragraphs or pages... just a few key words.

- Remember there's also some info in the front of the ERSA and DAPs, so if you can't find something (like Radio failure procedures or circling height obstacle clearance)... look in those.

- Read the whole question twice. They often throw a word in which completely changes the intent of the question. If you just read it once, it's very easy to set off answering the wrong the question. They also like their Red Herrings... For example lots of my questions gave me the Pressure Error Correction even though you don't need it to work out the answer (like when working out alternate minima). Of course the multi guess answers then include the right answer, the right answer + PEC, and the right answer - PEC.

- If you have time left at the end, read the questions again.... I guarantee that despite your best efforts you'll find something you mis-read.

[bentleg]

You headed this up PIFR vs CIR. No-one seems to have answered that. If you intend to fly privately (only) PIFR has the big advantage that you can just do the FPA's that you need/want - tailor it to your needs. You may not need ILS, if so dont do it. You don't need a CIR for private flying - PIFR does the job. If you intend to go to CPL, go CIR (but as already said get the PIFR endoresement in the log book as well - it might get you home sometime when your CIR is not current).

As far a recency goes under PIFR, the CASA requirement for a two yearly AFR is a bit slack. Many places mandate the CAO 40.2.1 recency requirements and I agree with that.

For the theory, it's a good idea to do IREX as it will cover you for all FPA's under PIFR.

PS - I did PIFR in a single.

[wishiwasupthere]

Just to clarify, if I already hold a CIR that is both current and recent, is getting a PIFR simply a paperwork exercise (with a small cost now doubt)? Do I need to do an additional test flight to get the rating?

Cheers

[Lancair70]

I have held at one time a MECIR, I now just want to fly IFR on PVT ops. Can I do a renewal (initial issue flight test) for CIR on SE and the get the PIFR endorsed in my log book or how does it work ? ?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

You headed this up PIFR vs CIR. No-one seems to have answered that. Hmmm - could have sworn I did! Private or commercial, get a CIR and learn to fly to fly in the poo with confidence! Once you have done that - get the PIFR issued to give you a bit more flexability with recency if you are on private ops.

Just to clarify, if I already hold a CIR that is both current and recent, is getting a PIFR simply a paperwork exercise (with a small cost now doubt)? Do I need to do an additional test flight to get the rating?Get the form off the CASA website, fill it in, pay the fee, wait for them to send you the new bit of paper for your licence. Simple as that!

I have held at one time a MECIR, I now just want to fly IFR on PVT ops. Can I do a renewal (initial issue flight test) for CIR on SE and the get the PIFR endorsed in my log book or how does it work ? ? You will need to do the equivalent of an initial issue (ie fly all the aids you require in the aeroplane) in a SE aeroplane, then get the ATO to issue the PIFR as well as the CIR - or get the CIR and do as above!

For about four renewals in a row I asked my ATO to do the paperwork for the PIFR as well - and for four renewals in a row he ignored me! Doesn't believe in PIFR - so I paid the fee and sent the form to CASA.

Dr :8

PS: Same advice given here as I gave to Jaba. For some strange reason, he listened! Got the CIR for private ops. I honestly believe that he is a more confident, competent, safer IFR pilot as a result. I haven't flown IFR with him cause I won't get in a Retard Vehicle (:E), but I have it on good authority that he does it well! He flys some pretty hard-core IFR in that mobile Dick Smith shop he calls an aeroplane!

[PyroTek]

but I have it on good authority that he does it well

Let me be honest here, when I went IFR with him he seemed confident and well organised. (I'm not an IFR pilot and am not experienced in such) I felt like I was in safe hands, however.:ok:

[QFF]

Get the form off the CASA website, fill it in, pay the fee, wait for them to send you the new bit of paper for your licence. Simple as that!Ah, not quite. Did my CIR renewal last October and did exactly that to try to get the PIFR. Got a letter back from CASA kindly returning my form and advising me to get the ATO who did the renewal to sign off on it. Still waiting for him to get back to me....

Moral of the story, I guess is to have the PIFR form ready for ATO to complete along with CIR renewal paperwork...

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Ah, not quite. Did my CIR renewal last October and did exactly that to try to get the PIFR. Got a letter back from CASA kindly returning my form and advising me to get the ATO who did the renewal to sign off on it.

Did the PIFR paperwork beat your CIR renewal paperwork to Canberra? ATO never signed off on anything for me.

Dr :8

[QFF]

Did the PIFR paperwork beat your CIR renewal paperwork to Canberra?No - actually it was probably a month or two after my renewal. I was inspired by something I read on this same forum :ok:

Ah well, chalk it up to the usual CASA consistency and standardization at work. Maybe if I sent in the same form again....:rolleyes:?

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I have no idea how many pilots in Oz have PIFR only, but I have to admit that I am more surprised that there have not been more incidents with basic PIFR pilots getting themselves into difficulties. There have been some, but not as many as I expected.

The fact that PIFR's have to declare their endorsements on their flightplans now would support the perception that there have been a few problems.

What bothers me most about starting with a minimum PIFR and then working your way through the endorsements is that you could up - but struggle to get down again!

In 25+ yrs of IFR flying, on two occassions I have arrived at destinations forecast to be CAVOK - and had to fly an approach almost minima to get back on the ground.

Dr :8

[Jabawocky]

I have to agree with forkie, do the CIR and then after keeping current for at least a year, get the PIFR written up. But try to maintain CIR recency, and only use the privilege of PIFR for getting the job done or recent again.

I have done quite a bit of the last couple of years and it's paid off. Even Chimbu Chuckles gave me a good wrap.....work at it.

And everything else forkie says except comments about Retard Vehicles, as a matte of Fact a Bonanza owner (along with many other types in his collection) flew my RV10 at YAYE today and now wants a -10 and a -8, smart bloke :ok:

[Lasiorhinus]

PIFR has the big advantage that you can just do the FPA's that you need/want - tailor it to your needs. You may not need ILS, if so dont do it.

The CIR can also be tailored to your specific needs. The only requirements are that you gain endorsements on either the VOR or the NDB. It is perfectly possible to get a CIR endorsed for NDB only. If you dont want ILS, you dont need to get it. (But please get RNAV.)

Incidentally, there are no endorsements required under a CIR for SID and STAR - the holder of a CIR is automatically qualified to fly them. If you then transfer to a PIFR, you automagically gain those endorsements on your new rating.

As far a recency goes under PIFR, the CASA requirement for a two yearly AFR is a bit slack. Many places mandate the CAO 40.2.1 recency requirements and I agree with that.

Who mandates them? Flying schools? If you're exercising the privileges of your PIFR, you are flying privately, and not bound by anyones Ops Manual except your own personal SOPs. I'm the first to agree that the more recent you are, the safer you are, but the only "place" able to mandate recency requirements is the regulator.

For the theory, it's a good idea to do IREX as it will cover you for all FPA's under PIFR.


A PIFR examination will also cover you for the FPAs you're doing - the better reason for doing IREX is it covers you for a CIR down the track, should you decide to start out with PIFR and later upgrade to CIR. Even if you dont think you'll ever need it, it is worthwhile doing for this reason.

[bentleg]

Who mandates them? Flying schools? If you're exercising the privileges of your PIFR, you are flying privately, and not bound by anyones Ops Manual except your own personal SOPs. I'm the first to agree that the more recent you are, the safer you are, but the only "place" able to mandate recency requirements is the regulator.

I know of two organisations at Camden that require compliance with CAO 40.2.1 recency requirements before they will allow you to fly IFR in their aircraft.

[Clearedtoreenter]

I know of two organisations at Camden that require compliance with CAO 40.2.1 recency requirements before they will allow you to fly IFR in their aircraft.

Maybe its because of this:

'The recent experience requirements of
the command instrument rating (CAO 40.2.1 para 11)
should be used as guidance as to what minimum recent
experience is likely to be required.'

www.casa.gov.au/download/caaps/ops/5_13_1.pdf (http://www.casa.gov.au/download/caaps/ops/5_13_1.pdf)

Would be pretty hard to defend a guy they let go off doing a solo ILS 23 months after his last one.

[Lasiorhinus]

Ah, now thats an entirely different kettle of fish - requirements of someone who owns the aircraft you're flying.

The owner can specify anything they want to, and its up to you to decide if that's reasonable, or alternatively go and find another aircraft to fly.

PIFR is very very much personal judgement based. It requires you to know your own limits, and stick to them.

Is it a good idea to go flying to an aerodrome where you know you will need to fly a VOR approach in IMC, and your complete recency is,

-Flew a VOR approach fifteen months ago as part of a BFR.
-89 days ago, flew a long cross country on a clear blue day and spend three hours under the hood maintaining straight and level, while a safety pilot looked out the window.
-After lunch on that same day 89 days ago, called into a flying school and an instructor mate showed you the school's new synthetic flight trainer, and let you fly an ILS for the fun of it.

The above makes you perfectly legal under CAO 40.2.1 to fly a VOR approach in IMC today, but is it a good idea? The answer to that depends, depending on you.

[PA39]

For those poor buggers who couldn't afford the twin hrly rate i recommended that we do their FIR in a single and then have it converted to a twin at the first renewal...finances depending. I used to train people all the time this way.

[UnaMas]

for those of you reccomending Avalon Airservices, they are very good, but very very expensive!!!

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Did the PIFR paperwork beat your CIR renewal paperwork to Canberra? ATO never signed off on anything for me.



This is your friendly CASA FIO here.
Seeing as local cops can issue summonsessses through face book, could you please kindly head into your local field office to hand in your PIFR as we have had no response to requests to rectify your paperwork and we KNOW you will be reading this.:}

For PIFR addition to an existing CIR; just ask the ATO to fill out the extra form at your test. Every ATO I know will do it at no additional cost.

Single vs. Multi; all you need is one approach in a multi with an ATO and the whole shebang gets upgraded. PIFR and CIR.

PIFR vs CIR; CASA made it hard (esp in SE QLD) for schools to conduct the PIFR exams. (Each aid has to be examined separately, Avalon was in a "unique" position, until now.) Doing the the CIR means an IREX (bummer) but you get every FPA associated with each aid, whereas each individual FPA (NDB Holding, NDB IAL requires Vis Circling, Navigation using NDB) must be assessed with PIFR. Much easier to test and you have a higher standard (read as safer) with CIR, IMHO