Virgin Atlantic Pilot Strike Ballot

[capt.storm]

Now this has been all over the news but I rarly seen any information or comment on PPrune.

Does PPrune have a private agenda?

Virgin pilots 'to vote for strike' | Business | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/jun/21/virgin-atlantic-to-vote-on-strikes)

Virgin Atlantic faces prospect of its first ever strike just as it celebrates landmark anniversary | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2005070/Virgin-Atlantic-faces-prospect-strike-just-celebrates-landmark-anniversary.html?ito=feeds-newsxml)

[pitotheat]

No hidden agenda just a bunch of professionals doing their best to avert a period of chaos to holiday makers over the summer. However, the vote just released is 97% in favour of industrial action. The last chance for an incompetent and arrogant management team to offer a fair deal. I suspect Mr Branson will have to get involved to reach a compromise. In any case a very solid and unequivocal result from the pilots.
Good luck to the flight crew.

[londonmet]

Result in...

BBC News - Virgin Atlantic pilots vote to strike (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13863341)

[airborne_artist]

From the Telegraph article:

"Virgin's captains are paid around £70,000 a year"

How accurate is that figure?

[RoyHudd]

The crass UK media get it wrong again, deliberately. Virgin do not focus on holidaymakers, and the strike timing is therefore unrelated to the cheap holidays of the great British unwashed to Disneyland, etc. Any old lies to flog newspapers and gain attention.

And good luck to you Virgin pilots. You've got more balls than your lily-livered colleagues at TUI, Thomas Cook and Monarch.

[RoyHudd]

The contre-temps between Branson, an acknowledged pilot-envy sufferer, and "his" pilots should be fascinating.

[The Big Easy]

Well done to the guys and girls at Virgin for having the bottle! Good luck in the coming months.

[BOAC]

Anyone NOT convinced by 97%? I thought Mr Ridgeway looked quite haggard on tele tonight................

[charlies angel]

Roy Hudd
Just remind me why "lily livered colleagues" at TUI, TCX and Monarch are requiring of a pair?
What is the TCX pay award in Apr 2012?
How about TUI and Monarch?
Facts please!

[LD12986]

The crass UK media get it wrong again, deliberately. Virgin do not focus on holidaymakers, and the strike timing is therefore unrelated to the cheap holidays of the great British unwashed to Disneyland, etc. Any old lies to flog newspapers and gain attention.


Virgin do to a large extent focus on holiday makers. Look at how many 747s with 400+ pax they send to MCO at the weekend. Indeed, VS has been described as a holiday company with an airline attached.

Also, the press will always report (and sensationalise) stories like this through the impact on their own readers. That's their job. The impact on the business traveller flying at someone else's expense is of no concern to the press.

Not seeking to take any sides; just trying to explain.

I note from the FAQ on the Virgin website that they claim they will wet lease aircraft in the event of a strike. Where will they get these from?

[Sir George Cayley]

Transparency is todays watchword. Everyone wants to see everything laid out in front of them.

In the case of the VS pilot workforce turning down 4% this year and 3% over the next 2 years, the missing bit is 4% of what?

I know it's a harsh world outside my fur lined rut so I swallow the bitter pill each year and accept sub RPI/CPI increments. Didn't BA pilots similarly swallow a couple of years back, hacking off BASSA at the same time?

Two questions, if answered honestly, will bring clarity to this discussion and as a consequence support from some and anti sentiments from others.

So, what is the spread of earnings p.a. for top of the scale down to entry level? And how many duty hours a year are worked on average to attain that income?

I feel support for their position if the ballot for industrial action is turned into a reality may be hard to come by outside of the industry. Nevertheless, the sight of the Bearded One stuttering over a TV interview could be worth it.

Sir George Cayley

[TyroPicard]

Sir George
It seems perfectly clear to the Virgin pilots....

[fincastle84]

Singapore Airlines won't be too happy as they strive to sell there 49% holding.

[NWT]

As is usual in all the crass reporting, a lot of facts are missed out. The dispute is not only about pay rises (or lack off) it is also about the incompetent managers and broken agrements....always more to a story....

[X ONE]

Any Virgin drivers know/want to list their exact demands on here to us mortals as there seems to be a few issues according to the guys I've spoken to??

[PPRuNe Towers]

All the salient issues have been discussed before on the site and long before the vote. The search engine will lead the way.

The VS pilots have done this before a good few years ago and have a very effective and pragmatic view of whether informing outsiders is a primary goal or not at any given time.

[lexoncd]

There are fundamental changes in the way we are used to seeing our remuneration rise in line with inflation or in the case here remaining static in turbulent times. The Public sector are coming to terms with changes in their penson schemes for example and taking action they believe is necessary.

The World is changing and for many the the way things used to be will forever change. An employer must make themselves attractive to retain the staff they require by matching market conditions. Similarly if the market rate is down then be prepared for tough times....

Not taking sides here just pointing out that there will be changes for many employees in the coming years and sadly I fear not for the better...

[londonmet]

Similarly if the market rate is down then be prepared for tough times....

What's the consensus on this then? Are airline pilots paid above or below what they should be?

[What The]

Airline Pilots are paid what they negotiate. Like any other profession.

[londonmet]

What the,

But if new start up airline "ABC airways" comes along paying its pilots 10% less than the current average and then your airline tries to negotiate a 4% uplift what are you told? "Nope, can't be done if we are to remain competitive".
The same could be said one year later by the pilots of "ABC airways". They could want the 10% to bring them up to the average plus the 4% the others are asking for.... They only get what they're given at the end of the day.

So although I partly agree with you what you say I believe isn't strictly true.

[sky9]

Those salaries aren't anything to write home about after you take weekend and night flights into account. I suspect the refuellers are on a better screw than the F/O's.

Stick to your guns; as someone said many years ago "Show me your paycheque I'll show you your status".

Now how much does "old beardie" take and where does he take it.

[Tyke]

No one outside the Communist Party wants to strike. For 97% of the Virgin pilot force to vote for one indicates a serious amount of disaffection. This from pilots working for a Company with an excellent reputation with the travelling public. That reputation is in part due to the pilots.
Hopefully, the vote will concentrate the minds of both sides in the dispute and a meaningful offer will be forthcoming.

[hoofhearted]

Virgin chiefs receive pay rises despite job cuts | Pay and Benefits (http://www.payandbenefitsmagazine.co.uk/pab/article/virgin-chiefs-receive-pay-rises-despite-job-cuts-12314501)

This may help explain some of the anger!:mad:

[Count von Altibar]

Good luck to all the pilots at Virgin Atlantic making a stand against the bearded one. Worldwide static display threat will concentrate the minds of Virgin management. I wish the pilots at bmi had similar cajones!

[Dan Air 87]

Great going lads! Nice to see your CEO (and many others) helping themselves to large increases. Stand your ground. Don't cave in like your cabin crew did a few years back.

[macdo]

Good luck, I suspect you won't be the only pilots looking to strike over the next year.:ok:

[insty66]

Yes good luck to those pilots, I hope you can find time for those most likely to be affected, not your bosses but the people who ultimatley make sure you have a job. No SLF no airline.

Both me and my wife have had either below inflation rises or pay freezes over the last 3 years, we have saved like mad for a special holiday this year after 3 years of no holiday, only to realise that it could be ruined even before we get there.

As a member of the great unwashed you will struggle for sympathy whilst others have a far harder struggle for a lot less money.

[Peedoff]

Virgin don't want to pay the going rate for long haul pilots. Do you think if they told BP they don't want to pay the going rate for fuel that they'd be flying any aircraft?

As for the comments about overpaid pilots then let them employ average British workers to fly their planes. Uh oh - There's a flaw in that argument too.

Pay the pilots the going rate for their skills and you won't have any disruption. If they can find £47 million to pay the fines and costs of their CEO's price fixing debacle then they can find the few million extra to fund the difference between the sub-inflation offer and the going rate the pilots expect after their salary sacrifices over the last three years.

Not too much to expect but thanks to an HR head who has promised the board that she can break the last unionized group within Virgin we now have the potential for a strike. Aside from the disingenuous utterings from Ridgeway and SRB about everyone else accepting the company offer, they didn't mention that the "offer" was imposed, not accepted as all the other workgroups are not as united and organized as are the pilots.

[Right Way Up]

Both me and my wife have had either below inflation rises or pay freezes over the last 3 years, we have saved like mad for a special holiday this year after 3 years of no holiday, only to realise that it could be ruined even before we get there.
As a member of the great unwashed you will struggle for sympathy whilst others have a far harder struggle for a lot less money.

Whilst I understand your frustration, your thoughts nicely sum up why the UK has become the low cost/low quality country it is now. Sometimes you just have to stand up for yourself and if you don't you become a beancounters wet dream. I left Virgin a fair few years back (how is Ridgeway still there?) and I have a family holiday booked which no doubt will be affected. However I know that the VS pilots are making an important stand. After all the last decent pay award that VS pilots got was after one of the CC unearthed that there was a sizeable amount of money ending up offshore.

[stormin norman]

After all the last decent pay award that VS pilots got was after one of the CC unearthed that there was a sizeable amount of money ending up offshore.


I'm shocked ..........................................................no t

[macdo]

Your holiday probably won't be ruined if it is ATOL/ABTA protected, you'll probably just end up on another carrier.

Striking has become quite unfashionable over the last few years, but the blame has to fall on fat cat or incompetent management, rather than the put upon workforce irrespective of their income.

I suggest you write directly to Richard Branson and complain about the way his managers are running his company.

[st patrick]

:ok:Best of luck to the professional pilots of VS! You will never win the sympathy or understanding of the public - so dont try!(especially with the UKs gutter press on your backs). You know what you are worth, stick to your guns. If only more pilots would stand up for themselves sigh!

[Lance]

I don't know, have I missed something?
I wonder, if after the receipts based exercise last year when it was decided by HMRC that duty pay should be taxed at the full rate, has been forgotten by those who cannot understand the frustration of the pilots. Yes they earn okay money for their responsibilities but with the tax changes, paying the full amount on duty pay and probably being at the bottom of those losing their personal tax allowance they and I am up to UKL 400 a month worse off with no prospect of a pay rise, (actual take home pay), without either a substantial pay rise or major salary sacrificing, which doesn't help much with inflation at it's current rate. We have had a serious pay CUT since this time last year. No wonder people are fed up.

[fincastle84]

Virgin don't want to pay the going rate for long haul pilots.

I assume that you were aware that Virgin pays below the going rate before you applied for a job with them. Therefore why didn't you go to work for a different company?

[BBOWFIGHTER]

I suggest you write directly to Richard Branson and complain about the way his managers are running his company

The warnings were clear enough and went unheeded. VS will now reap what they have sown.

[marlowe]

Insty66 sorry to read that you and your wife work for companies that value you both as they do, and sorry to read that you and your wife, and your work collegues dont care enough to stand up to your companies to try and better your pay . Your reply is typical of this countries me me me attitude, if i cant have it then nobody else can! You moan that for the last 3 years you and your wife have had under inflation pay rises or a pay freeze so what have you and your wife done about it? Obviously nothing! Virgin pilots are doing something about it though, 97% of BALPA Virgin pilots feel that they need to stand up and show the company that they are not happy with the pay at Virgin and are willing to withdraw there labour. I would bet that not one of them actually wants to strike, and not one of them wants to mess up your holiday, but they are willing to show Virgin that as a workforce they have reached a point and need to show the company how they feel, when was the last time you showed your company how you felt Insty?

[AFA]

I assume that you were aware that Virgin pays below the going rate before you applied for a job with them. Therefore why didn't you go to work for a different company?

Who says Virgin were paying below the market rate when I applied for the job? What's your point? This is about what's been happening for the last few years.

[cpdlcuser]

This is about so much more than pay. 97% of a professional body one of very few professional bodies at VS are in total agreement that the current management is inept. It has systematically removed any element of enjoyment from this company.
It constantly undermines the decisions made by pilots, it has handed all direction to HR who know nothing of a pilots lifestyle nor working pressures. It shows absolutely no respect for its pilots, this is then filtered through the food- chain to crew and ground staff alike.
Many pilots have been disciplined and even fired for minor and sometimes fictitious events. The fleet management are totally invisible and only interested in safeguarding their pension and income as well as picking the nice trips and events.
A pilots word used to have credence as a respected professional but at VS, should a pilot dare to speak up he would definitely disciplined and probably fired.
Yes, pay is an issue but not the only one and I would dare to say not even the major one. Reform is needed here or the airline is no longer viable for pilots to work for.
Promotions are another issue, new joiners can expect around 20 years to command if ever. There is no system in place for any career progression. A sad, sad state of affairs and a very unhappy place.

[fincastle84]

This is about what's been happening for the last few years.

Well, as a free agent, take your excellent skills to another employer. I've done this twice since leaving the RAF & on each occasion have become considerably better off.

[AFA]

Well done you. That's precisely what I plan to do

[cpdlcuser]

AFA your not alone

[fruitbat]

BA looking for 744 type rated pilots. They are fast tracking anyone with a 744 rating, one guy went from application to job offer in a week.

[virgin mary]

Capt. Sullenberger said this "the single most important piece of safety equipment is an experienced well trained pilot." And that "Experience & Skills of pilots only comes from investing and if airlines do not change and start valuing the pilot profession, it will result in future pilots being less experienced and less skilled, it logically follows that we will see negative consequences to the flying public and to our country"

That said it all for me. Full support to our Guys and Girls up front.

[cpdlcuser]

Capt Sully talks a lot of sense
Mr Branson on the other hand said he would pay Sully twice as much as his pilots if he came to virgin.
How to p!££ a workforce off in easy lesson.

[BlackandBrown]

Trainee Virgin train drivers are paid a basic of £45K a year.

See:

Trainee Train Driver - Pay And Conditions For UK Train Drivers (http://www.traindrivertrainee.com/Train-Driver-Pay-and-Conditions.html)

Virgin First officers, who have had to achieve 2000 hours minimum flying a jet are paid £47K a year.

Absurd.

[SKI]

I hope there is a strike these companys have been taking the p*** for the last few years...they have sown the seed now they are about to reap the whirlwind! This is the first of many!

[IcePack]

SKI,

Nah pilots are too self centred.

Won,t see many strikes if any.

[Dan Winterland]

''Well, as a free agent, take your excellent skills to another employer. I've done this twice since leaving the RAF & on each occasion have become considerably better off. ''

Done it only once myself - from VS!

The workforce at VS have decided to say ''enough is enough''. The rot started post 9/11 with the dreadful way the workforce were treated and got far worse in the GFC. From being the best airline to work for, it became one of the worst with a callous hire and fire employment philosophy.

Good luck boys and gals, but I suspect a strike won't happen. The Virgin brand's only strength is it's image. Richard can't afford the bad publicity and the company will cave before it happens.

[bad bear]

If you pay peanuts you get monkeys!

A most convincing ballot result. Virgin pilots, hold out for what you are worth !

[jonseagull]

I don't know much about the VS situation but I would like to respond to the comment about "Lilly livered" TUI pilots. Here at Thomson Airways, we were offered a strings attached RPI rise. This went to ballot and was rejected 2:1. The union sat down and talked with the management and the pay offer was accepted, minus strings.

This is how union, employer relations should work. It doesn't have to be confrontational. VS obviously don't have this luxury.

So, Lilly livered or grown up, mature and professional? You decide.

Hope VS agree to everyones satisfaction asap.

[yeoman]

As Mr Seagull states, robust response from TOM membership, CC response to Company leaving little room for doubt, sensible reaction from Company with glimmer of hope for a better relationship on the back of at least one problem at TOM sorted for the time being.

Ergo: Roy Hudd speaking out of his hoop at least as far as TOM is concerned. (Ops normal?, The requested facts are yet to be provided?)


VS have apparently been pushed beyond that point but no doubt all concerned will be looking for a similarly hopeful outcome. Good luck to you all.

[sky9]

Let's get one thing straight. Management will attempt to get away with paying the least they can get away with, and grab the largest bonus for themselves.

If we assume that a captain earns £100,000 a year and flies 500 hours it works out at £200 per flying hour. Assuming an average of 300 passengers on a wide body that works out to 67p per passenger per hour.

When you consider that Ryanair charge at least £4 per passenger for the privilege of using a debt card it puts it into perspective.

The reality is that FD costs are a marginal cost to airlines with modern aircraft and productivity. A decent pilot saves his company more time and fuel than his salary, it's just not recognised because we don't shout about it. Next time you fly look at the fuel and time used against planned and highlight the difference in your voyage report.

[flatfour]

I can't find anywhere what the pilots are asking for and how this compares with other airlines. Is it available on the web ? Are BALPA supporting this or are the pilots acting on their own initiative ? My experience of Unons is that they never win anything in the medium or long term.

[p7lot]

This is the first time we have ever voted to strike.
With no pay increase since 2008, a below inflation offer for 2011 and proposals for 2012 and 2013 that will be sub-inflation this is now a six-year attack on living standards which has not happened in any other airline.
I say enough is enough.

[Faulty]

>this is now a six-year attack on living standards which has not happened in any other airline.

yes it has......bmi

[eagerbeaver1]

Yep, try Ryanair.

[p7lot]

British airline then....national flag carrier even .....not German or Irish

[BlackandBrown]

Are you saying Virgin First Officers should be paid more than anyone in any other job going?

Yes Virgin Atlantic First Officers should be paid alot more. Virgin Atlantic isn't exactly a lifestyle choice is it? So what does it have going for it?

[Faulty]

Virgin share ownership 51/49. British but only just.

Sorry for splitting hairs. I truely hope Virgin pilots take this all the way. A line needs to be drawn in the sand. bmi pilots, pre LH, had a similar mandate and squandered it.

Good luck.

[Count Niemantznarr]

There are hundreds of pilots out there who will do the VS pilots jobs for a lot less money. It is called supply and demand.

Beardy should hold firm and cancel his striking pilots staff travel for life. Branson should then follow BA's example of sacking union reps and suspending any VS pilots who send inflamatory texts or Faceb**k messages about non strikers. Any intimidation of pilots who disagree with the strike should be dealt with by the full force of the companies disciplinary procedures.

I am confident that VIRGIN's team of lawyers will find a way to injunct this strike and declare the ballot void.

It is about time that BALPA was busted. The union caused trouble at BA turning a blind eye to its members flying as cabin crew, and now wants to call a strike.

Hypocrisy, utter hypocrisy.

[jumpjet7]

Flatfour suggests unions don't work in the short or long term. The Thomson CC have over many decades kept us at the forefront regarding terms and conditions. As a 25 year pilot who works 680 hrs per year my remuneration compares whith almost any pilot worldwide and I don't live in the tropics, sandpit or do longhaul.

Thomson success is down to the calibre of guys who serve on the CC and a staunch core of supporters. Bob Crowe achieves similar for RMT members through hard nose tactics.

Pilots can apear a strange bunch, isolated or ego driven. Simple really, we are articulate and motivated employees with huge leverage who occasionally need to grow dangly bits as the VS guys have done. The middle class squadron mentality can hold us back as can the diverse ethnicicity that now pervades airlines such as Ryanair. These can be overcome with communication and a realisation that the vaseline treatment doesn't have to be accepted as the norm.

Good luck guys.

[LNAV]

In the history of uk industrial relations, strike action does not benefit the workers taking the action and certainly not the organisation suffering the strike action, whatever union or left wing activist may declare. What does influence the direction of the settlement is the threat of downing tools. Virgin Pilots, use this threat wisely, if you strike, then thousands of families will not fly with you again, ever. Your airline will shrink and possibly be taken over with your influence decimated. The recent BA action cost the airline a huge amount of financial penalties, and the staff were split. The passengers booked elsewhere. They still will. Virgin is a minow in world avaition.... be careful out there.

[Tankengine]

LNAV, you are correct that strike action adversely affects companies,
that is the reason companies needs to NEGOTIATE reasonably with pilots.:ugh:

[RN98]

How disappointing that high paid workers who have a fantastic career have lost sight of where they are heading and just obsessed by money. How disappointing that holiday makers will see their travel plans go up in smoke.

[BigGeordie]

RN98, are you talking about the management or the pilots?

[RN98]

I am talking about the pilots BigGeordie. Very disappointing :(

[Von Smallhausen]

RN98, a simple question for you.

If your employer is doing well, turning a decent profit , awarding its directors large pay increases etc, is it reasonable for Joe employee to expect his salary to stay constant in real terms? If so, would you describe Joe (with the usual family, car, mortgage etc) as 'obsessed by money', as you just have VS's pilots?

Thanks in advance for your reply.

Mods, could I trouble you to consider whether Count N's posts are relevant to the title of this generally worthwhile thread, and if not remove them as a time-wasting distraction? He's free to start a new thread with his views.

[RN98]

Normal Joe employee does not already earn in excess of 65k a year though.

[fruitbat]

So anyone earning over 65k should never complain and should accept whatever their management decide. Just compliantly watch their lifestyle gradually eroded?

Are you a secret admirer of the Bolshevik party? It didn't get them far did it?:ugh:

[heavy.airbourne]

Now,nurses try to tell us how much we may earn and when we might strike. That is one inflated mind, I reckon?!

[Balvenie]

RN98 - I am a pilot and my wife is a nurse, in the last ten years

she has not been made redundant, TWICE, I have
she has not worried about redundancy in every job she has, I have
she has not stuggled to find a job and been forced to work in the middle east, I have
She has a guaranteed pension, I will be lucky to have a fraction of her pension


you cannot compare oranges to apples nor nursing to piloting

[McGoonagall]

One question Beardie might like to answer is why can he pay his train drivers an industry leading salary (currently £52500 for a 4 day 35hr week and no Sunday working if you elect not to work them) but not do the same for his flight and cabin crew?

I suggest that strong trade unionism on the railway may be part of the answer.

[Spunky Monkey]

There are always a few idiots.
I was paid £25K a year to fly the rich and famous around Europe. Should we start complaining about how they made their money? Or should we stick to the disgusting state huge parts of the NHS is?

But then again the NHS stands for waste, political correctness and be un-touchable - unlike those of us who work in the private sector, you have it easy as far as pay and conditions goes.

This is however wildly off topic. Being no fan of the unions, I would hope that the V boys and girls stick to their guns.

[fruitbat]

RN98 is a troll. In fact she sounds the same as Flying Nurse who was on the cabincrew.com forum during the BA CC dispute. She funnily enough supported their cause, but showed a deep contempt of pilots.

At least it's good to know it's not just BA pilots you hate, but ALL pilots.

Ignore, ignore, ignore

[p7lot]

There are many who talk on from ignorance rather than from knowledge,
and who find the former an inexhaustible fund of conversation.

[Ancient Observer]

In all the stuff on this thread, I have not heard from either the pilot supporters or the management supporters, a cogent argument about what is going on. If it is simply "they didn't increase our salaries for a couple of years, and now the increases are too small", then what is the management's response to this?
Clearly it can't be "we can't afford to pay you any more". With such a solid vote in favour of IA, I would hope the managers have something better to say than that.

Could we have a little more info and a little less slagging each other off?

[farefield]

AO,

I don't really wish to fully answer your question because I don't have the time right now.Maybe someone else here will.

Suffice to say that a union may ballot for Industrial Action for one issue only.In this case they made it pay because in 8 months the negotiations have gone nowhere.

Believe me, if all was sweetness and light at VS the turnout /votes for,would not have been nearly so great.

It is this level of discontent which has been brewing for some years which has finally spilled out.

The company carried out a staff survey last autumn and the flight ops management are reported to have achieved a 6% approval rating.

6%

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

I do not work for VS but have considerable sympathy for the pilots there. Count Niemantznarr - it is difficult to know where to begin to correct your numerous misunderstandings. Perhaps the first place to start is your concept of there being non-strikers to protect. Given the scale of BALPA membership and the almost 100% support given for strike action, I think you will find there will not be too many non-strikers to abuse. Secondly, your idea that BALPA needs brought down reveals a crazy attitude to employee rights - they have exhausted all avenues and are left with nowhere else to go. BALPA are the elected representatives of the pilots and have gone to great lengths to ensure the strike vote was carried out legally - sooner or later the pilots will go for it unless something comes in to change the situation. Finally, whatever credibility the company may have had over pay freezes was lost some time back before the last round of redundancies at VS when at the same time the CEO received a rise in basic salary from £500,000 to £700,000 and a gaggle of senior managers did similarly well.

Despite my support for the pilots' case, I also have a word of caution. It seems to me that few of the pilots realise just how precarious the financial position of Branson and VS is. You just need to go on the very old and tatty aircraft they have to see that there is little money around for refurbishment. They are now a very small player in a big market where BA/AA are starting to eat them alive. Their Upper Class is a long way short of BA's First Class and the once-innovative service they provided now looks all a little tired. It is abundantly clear that Singapore Airlines wants shot of them and no obvious buyer is in the wings. Despite the unspeakable folly of paying big managers big money while telling everyone else the cupboard is bare, I am not sure the money-in-must-exceed-money-out equation is in Virgin's favour at the moment. I really do wish the VS well, but twhe cupboard may indeed be more bare than the pilots think or believe.

[Right Way Up]

NSF,

Just a couple of things.

Virgins financial position is and always has been a case of smoke and mirrors. SRBs attitude has always been to show how poor the company is whilst siphoning money out. It has always been in his interest to keep the company private. I am sure the pilots at VS have a good idea what they are dealing with.

With regard to Upper Class vs BA First Class. Upper Class was never meant to be the equivalent of First Class. It is basically business class with some nice seats/sleeper beds. If you want direct comparisons try premium economy where VS win hands down!

[Count Niemantznarr]

Rather than pushing for a pay rise that might precipitate the demise of VS, the airlines pilots should sit tight and survey the scene around them. Are they earning more than pilots in the lo-co's?

I agree with NSF, Virgin is in coffin corner financially. It is a point to point operator and increasingly isolated in a world of huge alliances. For instance, BA's "success" in the future will be to trap passengers into having to fly the OneWorld network, rather than service or price being a factor. There isn't going to be any "white knight" to save VS. SIA want to offload their share and Lufthansa the only other possible suitor, is trying to cut costs and is already lumbered with BMI. There isn't much value in the VS fleet either - all four engined planes. Ha ha Beardy - "Four engines for longhaul". Remember that?

So be prepared for another round of 'Glory Day' advertising, with busty blondes strutting through terminals on the arms of suave pilots, just before the plug is pulled.

[p7lot]

In a fleet of 38 aircraft which are a mix of 4 engined boeing 747 and airbus a340/300/600 the average age is 6 years old........hardly tired.
Twenty one new aircraft are currently on order including the a380 and B787.
"Beardy" as you so disrespectfully call Sir Richard, is not in a rush to sell his privately owned majority stake in a national carrier.....nor is he likely to sell his private island anytime soon or the 400 other companies in his group.
He is window shopping at the moment.....as all good BILLIONAIRES can!!!

Quote "I'm sure the pilots at VS know what they are dealing with"

Seen it all before and still cant work out the smoke and mirrors tactics so I'll just hit the lnav vnav let the FD fly "you have control, I'll do radios" and wait with the other 96% to see what transpires.

[Ancient Observer]

farefield,
thank you for the outline. I was worried that this thread would deteriorate in to mud-slinging that was not related to the dispute.

[BOAC]

The company carried out a staff survey last autumn and the flight ops management are reported to have achieved a 6% approval rating.6% - and a little bird tells me that unlike the other 'departments' in Virgin, the company will not release the survey results to flight crew!

[Count Niemantznarr]

I think what we know p7lot is that VIRGIN the airline, has always been Beardy's little "trainset" and the icing on the cake of his empire. He may decide to fund its losses indefinitely.

Therefore if the business is not run on established fiscal rules, it is OK for VIRGIN pilots to strike and make Branson shell out to keep his "four engines for longhaul" jets in the air.

Good luck to VS pilots!!

[VJW]

Richard Branson - Richard's Blog - Open letter to all Virgin pilots - Virgin.com (http://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/blog/open-letter-to-all-virgin-pilots)

[b737800capt06]

This is not a case of the King not knowing what his executives/managers are doing.

Branson directs from on top (V.A being one of his prime investments), so he is the man pushing his management team hard to screw down wages/conidtions.

His open letter is a PR spin doctors dream document :D

You only get what you fight for, Branson is a billionaire not because he is a nice guy but a hard business man :ok:

I can only hope I am proved by Richard. :)

[Peedoff]

Looks like Branson has fallen for the poisonous HR led attack on the union. With a dismally low approval rating of just 6% for the current Flight Operations management team (independently sourced staff satisfaction survey commissioned by Virgin Atlantic) the pilots are obviously fed up with more than just the headline pay offer.

Any management team that can lead a company into a strike where an almost unprecedented, overwhelming 97% (94% of all pilots) voted for industrial action surely needs to look at where it has gone wrong. If pilots haven't been on strike for 34 years you can't call this a militant group of workers.

It would appear that this ruinous management team are hoping that the wrath of public opinion against the pilots will carry them through. Very sad as this looks like being the end for Virgin Atlantic. The pilots will strike and most probably will risk bringing the company down.

Boeing and Airbus both predict massive shortages of experienced airline pilots over the next 20 years so an experienced workforce should have little problem finding new jobs even though it will mean a period of hardship and upheaval. With Branson having swallowed the advice of his management team, he will let them try and break the union. If his company is so precariously balanced on whether he can afford to pay his pilots then perhaps it is time for the demise of his airline.

[Skipness One Echo]

4 engined boeing 747 and airbus a340/300/600 the average age is 6 years old

I make it 8.7 and rising.

[p7lot]

Balpa, the pilots' union, has said that it will announce strike dates from Tuesday unless a dispute over pay is resolved.
Telegraph 1400

[londonmet]

So from the open letter from SRB it looks as if he is not going to back down. Could be interesting times.

[rcg11x]

OK guys, here is my lowly SLF perspective;-

One of my children is in mid teens and important exams and results are looming. The family decided last year to save hard and have a "once in a lifetime" holiday whilst we are all together. I have a well paid job but tried not to live beyond my means (the car on my drive is 10 years old) and not taken many overseas holidays so this is the big one, a full three weeks away, never managed it before. Departure in a few weeks and now we are dealing with the uncertainty around the strike.

Yes I have holiday insurance but I can't book any entertainment at the destination as this would not be covered (and no, it’s not Florida). I can't make other travel arrangements because I would loose all my money as I would have cancelled. This is what I would like to do to make sure we get there but obviously cannot afford to loose the money. So the alternative is to wait until the planned departure date. In the meantime, my spouse is having trouble sleeping with worry about getting on holiday. Irrational and illogical I concede, but nevertheless this is the situation I find myself in and I am extremely worried about their health with several weeks to go before departure.

So we wait for the departure day to arrive. Now suppose the strike has resulted in disprution and we cannot travel, will there be capacity elsewhere to transport us? if there is, how long will we have to wait? What if there isn't and the only option is to get our money back or travel again within three months? OK, so I have may not have lost out financially but the time has gone. I will not take my children our of school during term time and there will be no opportunity for three weeks holiday until next summer when other circumstances dictate that it will not be possible to take three weeks.

Am I selfish? Probably - if looking after your family is selfish then yes, and proud of it!

Do I think the striking pilots are selfish? Yes, they are taking away something we have looked forward to for so long and we will not have the chance to do this again. Maybe I am lucky, my employer recognized the sacrifices the workforce made to get through the lean times and has looked after and recompensed us for thissince. I don't understand the full issues behind the ballotas I believe the press only reports "populist" views. I haven't bought a paper for years and it would be really good to get and understand the full reasons for this action.

Do I expect your sympathy? No, there will be thousands of people like me and my family and I don't expect you to alter your view or behaviour because of my "sob story", but this is the reason why strikes do not work, they punish the wrong people, they punish the innocent. If I had a dispute with my employer I would not expect that to affect third parties, as you do.

Do I expect to be "slagged" off? No, I expect my views to be treated with respect. My perspective is different to everyone else’s. This is the truth as I see it, you must consider you own situation.

Wiil I book with Virgin again? I don't know but would not rule it out. My partner says definately not but I am not that naive, however Virgin won’t be our first choice (as it was for this holiday).

What would I like to happen? Ideally the strike not to go ahead. If that is not possible we need to know the dates as soon as possible so that we can make arrangements instead of being stuck “in limbo” and think the union should make these dates public immediately so that the thousands like us can plan ahead. I heard that Virgin carry 15,000 passengers a day. If this is true then this could potentially affect around 900,000 people between 4 July (the first possible strike day as I write this) and the end of the school summer holidays. We have always found the last few weeks before a holiday an important time for planning the finer detail. That too has been taken away from us, we cannot do anything until we have some details of the strike. If we are disrupted, then we want an alternative carrier to transport us but we don’t know how realistic that will be.

Am I worried? Very. I am trying to stay calm and positive for my partner but it’s not easy. Lack of information, bland promises of “unaffected service” from the Virgin website and no tangible alternatives do not give us any comfort and confidence that we will be able to go on holiday.

So there you have it, a view from a very worried SLF.

Good luck to us all!

[mr kingair]

Maybe many of these Virgin pilots have been spending too much time in France and the "Je fais la greve" is spreading?

Accept Richard's letter and back to work as normal lads!

[Peedoff]

rcg11x, perhaps you should focus your questions on the Virgin Atlantic management who have allowed industrial relation with their pilots to deteriorate to this level rather than just blame the pilots. It takes two to tango and you have to question the quality of management that is prepared to let their customers suffer for the sake of their overblown egos.

The Virgin pilots have not been offered any pay deal which is why they have balloted for industrial action. Pay negotiations were entered into last November yet the management team will not allow the union to ballot its members on any pay offer as they refuse to allow the offer to be put to the members unless the Balpa reps recommend the deal.

The management have not budged from their initial (non) offer since November and so the pilots have decided that they have no other option but to take industrial action. The intransigence of the management by refusing to allow a ballot on their supposed offer is the main reason that the pilots are taking the action even though they know that it will do much harm, not only to the airline and its customers but also to themselves.

They are not a bunch of militant lefties but a mature, well educated individuals with large responsibilities. They have been pushed into this corner by an an HR led assault on their working conditions and derisory pay (non) offers.

The engineers at Virgin decided a few years ago to give up their collective bargaining rights and have since had similar derisory pay rises imposed upon them. The pilots are not about to follow in their footsteps and are unanimous in their determination to prevent the HR department from fulfilling their promise of destroying the union.

Please direct your frustration at the Virgin management who are the real cause of the dispute. You wont get a straight answer because they are mostly revolving door managers who are using Virgin as a cash machine and will, during the course of many pilots and other employees careers, move on to other companies where they will apply their greedy and egoistic tactics to generate yet more chaos and disruption.

[Count Niemantznarr]

I find this hard to deal with. VS pilots complaining that Virgin wants to "bust" their union, yet BALPA remained "neutral" when hundreds of its members at BA volunteered to work as cabin crew, in a dispute that was all about union busting.

Beardy says it all in his blog. He is obviously "hurt" that his pilots might strike, even though working in a fun place doesn't pay the bills. Why should a VS 747-400 pilot earn less than a BA one?

The reason why, is that for years VS had a steady supply of retired BA Captains who were happy to earn a lower wage at VIRGIN, as they had their big, fat, BA pensions to top them up. Now that the retirement age is no longer 55 at BA, that stream of pilots has dried up.

Virgin do not want to talk to BALPA as they rather the association did not exist. All I say to the VS pilots is to study what BA management attempted with its cabin crew and how their union and the reps were treated, to view the similarities with your own dispute. There is a blueprint here that management of some companies is adopting:

1. You provoke a strike

2. You quickly defeat it and the union.

3. End of collective bargaining.

BA's cabin crew much to their credit, overcame this assault and war of attrition through a principalled and tenacious resistance, that Willie Walsh said he would win.

VS flight crew must be ready for all that will be thrown at them.

[Ancient Observer]

Maybe I'm being daft, but why was the BA CC strike a CEO -led strike, whilst the Virgin strike is an "HR led" strike?

Surely, if the workers and Directors wish to piss of their customers as much as they have done for rcg, above, then it is a CEO - led strike?

Surely it is the CEO that wants to piss off the customers, rather than HR??

[rcg11x]

Peedoff,

Don't disagree with you, the Management have played an active/inactive (delete as you wish) part in arriving at this situation!

If you could give me the number of someone in authority, I'd glady "have a go".....

[Yellow Pen]

1. You provoke a strike

2. You quickly defeat it and the union.

3. End of collective bargaining.

BA's cabin crew much to their credit, overcame this assault and war of attrition through a principalled and tenacious resistance, that Willie Walsh said he would win.

A fascinating view, but utterly wrong on every count. Reality isn't really your 'thing', is it? You might wish to go away and think about how hard it is to defeat a strike when the strikers can't be replaced by any old bod with 5 days training.

[Count von Altibar]

Don't fall for Sir Dickie's blackmail tactic of saying the current offer will evaporate. Keep on course and they'll offer you better behind closed doors in the run up to the action. That's my opinion of the likely outcome.

[Count Niemantznarr]

I don't think it is possible to successfully run an airline for very long, with front line staff who only have 5 days training.

VS and BA pilots can soon be replaced. There are hundreds out there who are qualified to do our jobs. Remember that Yellow Pen.

[Locked door]

Pilots can easily be replaced? Really?

A type rating and line training takes approximately three months with approximately 12 six hour sims and 10 ten hour flights. That's 172 hours of instructor time. Multiplied by 750 pilots that's 54000 hours or 2250 days of training. Training supplied by, you guessed it, other pilots!

That's a strong bargaining point I think!

As YP states, reality really isn't your strong point.

[Yellow Pen]

I don't think it is possible to successfully run an airline for very long, with front line staff who only have 5 days training.Seemed to work pretty well at BA.

VS and BA pilots can soon be replaced. There are hundreds out there who are qualified to do our jobs. Remember that Yellow Pen.Yes, they can be replaced. But no, they can't be replaced soon. It takes 3 months to line train a pilot to BA/VS standards. Thats assuming there's simulator and training capacity available for mass training purposes, which there isn't.

[p7lot]

In actual fact......It's got nothing to do with Sir Richard...he's as hands on and approachable as the Queen in a cash crisis. As with HRH ..he's just a face and he readily admits to leaving it to Steve Griffiths.
Steve Griffiths is the guy putting the deal on the table.
The buck stops with Steve Griffiths.
So can we have less of Dick and more of Steve.
And train some milkmen to fly the fleet.......see if it helps the company.

[aussieizborn]

In these days of financial constraints it is most important that companies look after their workforce who can make or break the company so easily. A workforce with good morale are more likely to keep customers on side by going the extra mile, whereas an unhappy workforce is unlikely to be as motivated. This seems to me to be another example of managers not managing their workforce effectively because if they were then this situation would not have arisen.

To be a respected manager does not mean that you need to always say yes to your workforce, but it does mean that you need to explain situations clearly, whatever they may be, and to lead by example. It would appear that the managers at Virgin are no different to many others in that they have seperate rules for themselves. I have read that management payrises awarded in 2008 were excessively large when the workforce were awarded nothing. That certainly is not the way to achive good morale within a company nor is it for good company co-operation. I say to all Virgin pilots I hope you achieve success as too many workers in the UK, in all industries, have been neglected by their "management", who have placed their own greed before doing their primary job of managing.

It is about time in this industry that the true value of a pilot is recognised. Managers are easy to replace and many have no real qualifications wheras pilots are highly trained individuals who have taken years to achive the level of experience required for their role. Someone mentioned that theVirgin pilots could be easily replaced. Sure no one is indispensable but I know, from first hand experience in the industry, that the majors have in the past been able to recruit some of the better pilots, a fact that should be valued. Virgin are very fortunate to have such well trained and capable pilots. As a manager I would be doing my upmost to keep this most important part of the workforce onside as they are an insurance policy to a safe and effecient operation.

[rcg11x]

Oxymoron666,

No employee should subsidize their employer whan a business is profitable, and certainly not their customers. I fully accept the role Management has played. If you have made sacrifices during the hard times, you should be looked after when the better times return. Like I said, I have been lucky.

Equally, I would be prepared to pay a bit extra for my holiday if it was guaranteed to maintain and improve employees pay. Sadly, many consumers may not agree but I believe you get what you pay for in life.

Maybe I should have included the question "Do I think the Management of Virgin Atlantic is selfish?" in my original post.

[Digitalis]

In a company with union membership of around 95% of the target workgroup, a ballot return of 94%, with 97% of those returns voting for industrial action, is extremely significant. As the 'union' within the company consists solely of the company's active-duty pilots, I don't think there is any way that this can be said to have been orchestrated by a union hell bent on company destruction - I'm sure that's the last thing these pilots want. Couple this with the reported internal survey result of just 6% satisfaction with the way the flight operations department is run, and it seems pretty clear that the bones of this dispute is not about pay - it's more likely about respect, communication and leadership. Or rather, the lack of those things. A union can't call a dispute on multiple topics, especially such ephemeral topics as these, so the very extended negotiations about pay have to serve as the stalking horse in the hope that the settlement will address all the issues at stake.

SRB's letter seems to ignore the underlying issues here, and was released to the press (I believe before it was released to the pilots) - yet the pilots do not have the right of reply in the press, though of course the union does.

Such disaffection is a major issue which should concern all at Virgin, and I sincerely hope it can be addressed before the whole house of cards falls down.

[doubleu-anker]

I am no fan of RB by any stretch of the imagination. However I agree with a lot of what he writes.

The days of the "big buck" are gone for pilots, forever. If the strike does go ahead it will probably finish VS. If RB does cave in, all the other trades will also want a rise and I believe it when he says the money wont be there.

The pilots are not indispensable, neither is the airline. Yes as mentioned it will take time to replace pilots. W.W. must be hoping like hell you pilots do go ahead with your action. Every employee at Sabena thought they and the airline were indispensable and look what happened there. If RB pulls the plug a lot of the ex employees and their families will be in for some very hard times indeed.

If the suits are the problem why don't you threaten strike action for "regime change"? If the strike does go ahead I think it could be the beginning of the end for VS., then it will be just another airline that went bust on the long list that is already. All airlines are being priced and taxed out of existence and a lot of the travelling public have probably had a guts full of it already. Who the hell wants to travel by air in their leisure time?? I don't that's for sure.

The dream and the good times are over. If you have a job that pays the bills and you can save a bit, you are in the minority. I think things financially, will only get worse globally but I hope I am wrong.

[taildrag]

Sure, you can't replace a competent pilot by "any old bod with 5 days training."
That's what the Continental pilots thought about Frank Lorenzo's antics. Didn't work out too well.

On the other hand,an aspect for management to consider is the forecast shortage of pilots worldwide as the Asian airlines continue booming, and many older pilots across the globe reach retirement age.

Does Branson want to slough off his best people for unknown quantities?:E

[fireflybob]

The days of the "big buck" are gone for pilots, forever

doubleu-anker, not sure what you mean by this.

The demands from the pilots in this case seem quite reasonable - a pay rise based on inflation etc - hardly asking for "big bucks", merely a request to be treated fairly.

[etrang]

5. VS management reach deal with VACC whereby most, if not all of pilots' demands are met.

What exactly are the pilots' demands?

[p7lot]

Digitalis

An informed and unbiased testimony to exactly what is happening.:D

[GA Button]

Hear hear Digitalis - nail on the head :D

[Narrow Runway]

Doesn't sound too clever back at "The Office" any more.

Inspired move of yours I reckon in 2009.

[flatfour]

I have been involved in many employee negotiations and reasonable people always win. Extreme action, extreme standpoints and extreme views never succeed. I don't know the precise details of this case so I apologise if this seems rather dismissive. When I was in business I always paid and needed to pay the highest rate possible for my best employees. Reasonable employees saw the figures and understood the constraints. If I was aVirgin pilot I would not create waves - that's a black mark in the Company's books and takes a long time to remove. Check the facts, listen to the arguments and state your point of view calmly in writing to management - without using hyperbole. But only if you feel you have to.

[Bluebaron]

I worked for VS from 1990-2001. It had 6 aircraft and 500 employees and was great fun.

We survived the Gulf war, the BA dirty tricks campaign, we had the best product on the market and (IMO) the best people for most of my time there.

Sadly the whole airline started to go down the pan in around 2000. By no short measure around the time Mr B took his leave.

It went from being a fun place with great prospects to being a corporate company with nothing but £ signs.

The terrible J2000 project lost millions and it took another 5 years to get the lost Jcls pax back. Economy went from 34" seat pitch, best entertainment, great meals to what it is now..........enough said there i think.

Everyman and his dog knows that Singapore have been desperate to sell for years and every time Virgin reports a profit the Singapore trading report states otherwise. (That's the great thing about being a private company).

It is a great shame that this once great 'people' airline has come to this.

It has become everything that it once fought against and until that is sorted it has no hope of sorting out the mess it has got itself into.

[marmon]

"could not agree more":D

[mastafreighter]

I support the actions of the VS pilots despite having just switched our front end business from BA to VS because of the last farce with Cabin Crew.

Some of the arguments here are so valid and eloquent but when I hear someone stating "Managers are easy to replace and many have no real qualifications whereas pilots are highly trained individuals who have taken years to achieve the level of experience required for their role" - I wonder whether this industry has any chance at all?

Whilst some may not like it, good airline managers are hard to come by and worth their weight in gold. I've had the luck to work with some of them. Many work extremely long hours - 2500hrs+ per year not including long stays away from home. Working on laptops on long haul flights then straight into meetings or back to the office. The skills required by Revenue Management (maximising ticket/freight income) is not learnt at the equivalent of flight school, it takes years of hard work. Sure there are bad managers just as there are bad pilots.

For any airline to be still in business after the last 10 years of industry change and increasing costs is almost a miracle and it has only been achieved by management, crew, front line and back room staff pulling together. Nobody should underestimate each others tasks or feel they are more important.

We all have to change with changing times and that means ALL. VS management need to share the pain and gain equally to survive the next 25 years.

Rant over

MF

[Flightmech]

The count asks why should a BA 744 pilot earn more than a VS 744 pilot? Thats life. There is a vast difference from top to bottom pay scales throughout the world airline industry.

However, The VS crew force obviously have missed out since 2008 but at the end of the day a strike benefits nobody, neither the employees or the company. Who wants to be left with just BA long haul for christ sake.

I hope Beardie and BALPA sit down and work out a compromise real soon before things go tits up and the damage can't be reversed

[AirResearcher]

Well said MF.... and I agree, good airline Managers ARE worth their weight in Gold and its most definitely is a two way process. Ths historic 'us and them' scenario has to go between crews and management, which requires full open-ness and mutual trust and respect, which I think is the main cause of this dispute.

I think most of the crews AND the Union in this case are trying to get the balance that is needed, but they have been made promises by management, some of which have not been kept. It looks very much to me (from the outside) like a serious failure at HR level, otherwise things would never have got this far.

[fruitbat]

When are strike dates being announced?

[AirResearcher]

Fruitbat, it was supposed to be yesterday I heard on the grapevine, so I suspect from the press silence there's some very heavy private negotiations going on, which could be a good sign.. fingers crossed

[Count von Altibar]

Also heard it was yesterday so I suspect there's a lot going on behind the scenes

[virgin mary]

Wow that is good to hear, maybe common sense and fairness will prevail? Hang in there BALPA.*Although we had all expected a much harder fight from the Virgin managers, and a lot more threats and bluffs! They havent even yet claimed that the airline is about to collapse because of the greedy Pilots, or that richard is now going to be forced to sell Virgin to Ryan Air to pay the bills! I was looking forward to a lot more drama and *exaggerated tales of doom from "The Office" . *After all, *Virgin are the masters of spin and deception, especially where money is concerned! *During the Cabin Crew dispute, the message was "take what's on offer or leave" why haven't the Pilots been given that message yet?*And I wonder what Singapore Airlines thinks of all this mess? I doubt if they are very impressed with how the money they invested is being frittered away and squandered by such an unnecessary public squabble. *And what will all those potential buyers that are hinted at by the management think ?*

Does anyone think they could close the airline down on a Friday and restart it on the following Monday with new contracts for everyone?? I suppose if that were possible Wille Walsh would have done it with BA a long time ago.*

However, talking to our passengers, they just want the service to run on time, as published with safe and happy Pilots! Most just think Richard will pay the earth to make sure he has the best Pilots he possibly could. After all didn't he offer to Double Capt Sully's salary if he came to Virgin ??*

[AirResearcher]

Latest:

Turbulent times for Branson's racing mate - Business Analysis & Features, Business - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/turbulent-times-for-bransons-racing-mate-2304590.html)

BALPA - BALPA DISAPPOINTED IN VIRGIN CEO'S COMMENTS (http://www.balpa.org/News-and-campaigns/News/BALPA-IN-TALKS-WITH-VIRGIN.aspx)

[AirResearcher]

Hi Virgin Mary

I've been pondering on what you said too about Singapore Airlines, and it struck me that the interview in the Independent (link above ) was a bit passive agressive.... do you think Steve Ridgway actually wants a strike so he can a\ restructure or b\ devalue VS temporarily so that SIA will sell their stake for a lot less than its worth just to offload a liability and leave the door open for VS and\or other potential partners to buy their stake at a bargain price??

[RoyHudd]

Has Billionaire Branson appealed to the pilots yet? His style is sneaky and always with P.R. in mind; I'm willing to bet that he'll start off telling the pilots that they are letting down a winning team, etc, etc,; If no success, he'll start to apply pressure and threats through his management as well as push for public/customer pressure against the pilots.

And this time, he could have met his match!

[londonmet]

Not that I wish for this at all but I have a feeling the pilots will lose this battle.
I just hope that the BALPA subs will be money well spent for the VS pilots.

[AirResearcher]

BALPA have said there will be a further announcement today.... judging by the lack of press coverage the negotiations must have been very serious the past few days..no idea which way it will go at this stage

BALPA - BALPA DISAPPOINTED IN VIRGIN CEO'S COMMENTS (http://www.balpa.org/News-and-campaigns/News/BALPA-IN-TALKS-WITH-VIRGIN.aspx)

Incidentally, I'm not sure this was a wise choice of words on Virgins Customer Help pages a few days ago, even if it was a direct response to a specific customer question

I am really angry that your pilots are affecting my holiday plans (http://virginatlantic.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/599)

[Count von Altibar]

If the VS pilots hold their nerve, they'll win out. Simple as that. Good luck folks, it'll be unlikely they ever get to action the strike.

[AirResearcher]

BALPA - VIRGIN UPDATE (http://www.balpa.org/News-and-campaigns/News/VIRGIN-UPDATE.aspx)

Not sure if this is good or bad...... will have to wait till Monday at least....

[cpdlcuser]

Not spotted and bridges nor foundations as yet. Maybe we all find other jobs by the time it's sorted :ugh:

[Count Niemantznarr]

Perhaps at this time of delicate discussions with VS management, BALPA should heed the wise words of a former IALPA rep who once sublety said: "A reasonable man gets nowhere in negotiations."

[BBOWFIGHTER]

It is incredulous that Steve Ridgway does not view a below inflation rate as a pay cut. His slip is showing - in more ways than one.

Unless things ARE being effected in the background as they should be, even more incredulous is the fact that Ridgway is somehow coveniently ignoring a 97% stand up and be counted vote for industrial action. THAT is a massive vote against the managment of VA for a just and proper increase. It is certainly something for RB to act upon even if his 'mate' doesn't like it. The future of VA is at stake and it would not be the first time that someone has said that Ridgway is out of his depth.

Jim McAusian of BALPA says:
And how lacking in humility not to face the fact that 97% of his pilots chose to vote for industrial action for the first time in their history which has a whole lot to do with an antiquated and out of date management style at the top of his company.’

He doesn't just have a point. He has it in one. It means that unless Ridgway/Branson agree to meet the demands of the pilots, Virgin will be in very serious trouble. Better men than Ridgway have fallen in the wake of stupid mistakes.

Saying to pilots what they said to CC - 'if you don't like it, leave' - would be crass. Only pilots fly aeroplanes.

If there is an annoucement today, it had better be a good one!

[fincastle84]

If there is an annoucement today, it had better be a good one!

That sounds threatening, I bet Mr Branson is quivering in his beard! Seriously though, Branson also has a bottom line to consider & if he decides that the wage demands cannot be afforded then maybe the strike will take place.

What happens next?????

[Abbey Road]

Branson ..... if he decides that the wage demands cannot be afforded then maybe the strike will take place.

What happens next?????

If it turns in to a Mexican stand-off, of any notable length, then Virgin Atlantic will go t1ts up.

[premiere100]

Book with BA? Err...no thanks.

As for Virgin, no problem with the Pilots. I am however furious with Virgin Management for seemingly allowing it to come to this.

In a nutshell from an outsider, it seems like Virgin were having a hard time during the recession (same as other companies), and they asked people to not have a payrise to help the company through troubled waters and that they would rectify this when these troubled waters were calm.

Pilots etc all stepped up to the plate to help the company thorugh. Seems like the company has now reneged on the deal and offered a seemingly lower than expected rate.

4% and with the rate of inflation at 5% is this not a 1% paycut this year? Is this a too simplictic view? Have I got this wrong? I am not in the profession myself but it just seems that people helped the company only to have this basically chucked back at them.

I do not want to fly with an airline that can do this to its own staff. I will fly Virgin this year (unless there is of course a strike) because I've already paid for it, but give Virgin anymore business? Definately not.

[Flightmech]

Personally, since the downturn in 2008 I had no rise in 09 and a 2.2% in 2010. In fairness my employer never said we were going to get more and maybe Virgin promised their pilots more and have rescinded. Its just the way the industry has been. Everyones feeling it.

[Count von Altibar]

I think VS went for 2 years without a rise which is quite a cut in real terms. That's why they're not happy with less than rpi/cpi whatever they use for this proposed deal. I don't the bearded one will let his beloved airline go t**s up!

[brakedwell]

How have senior management fared financially over the last three years?

[I'm Off!]

"How have senior management fared financially over the last three years?"

Aha, well isn't that the million pound question...?!

[Callsign Kilo]

It's a game of political will and VS management are playing their commercial trump card. It's an obvious but nasty tactic as far as the pilots are concerned. Branson wants the public to believe that his flight deck are holding the airlines fortune to ransom. What a load of bollocks! Mismanagement has VS in the precarious situation that it faces. This used to be a prestigious carrier that commercial pilots aspired to be part of. Now it isn't. That isn't the fault of the pilots. Keep your chin up guys, I wish you well. Good for you for showing your cojones!

[Dan Air 87]

My pay has gone down over the last year and its a simple equation. No pay increase I get to keep my job. There's faults here on both sides with the pilots but mainly with the VS mis-management.

The Bearded one should be sorting out some of the VS managers who have been there too long and believe that they are God. They should go and be replaced by people who can assimilate to the current trading conditions; not behave as if they were still stuck in the 1960's.

[170to5]

They should go and be replaced by people who can assimilate to the current trading conditions; not behave as if they were still stuck in the 1960's.

If you can find anyone like that in airline management, every company in the world would be competing to take them on!

[AirResearcher]

Totally agree Dan Air 87, however I think there's some politics at play here too.... namely an HR chief who wants to be VS CEO and wants to break the unions to get there...

I suspect you and I have both seen the cost of mismanagement in the shape of Capt Mayes enrolling John Olssen, and David James trying to pick up the pieces....for a very high fee, and at even great greater cost to most employees back in '92

[Count Niemantznarr]

If you want to know the blueprint for how this dispute at VS will roll, you only have to look at the cabin crew dispute at BA. Not many pilots on this forum had any sympathy for the BA cabin crew, and in fact many BALPA members undermined the cabin crew industrial action.

Now BALPA members at VS are going to be on the receiving end. VS is in a precarious position financially, and quite possible would have gone under if it wasn't for the windfall of BA passengers over the last 12 months. I suspect that Beardy is sticking in a load of his own dosh to keep his 'hobby' airline flying, but if the pilots spoil it for him, then the plug will be pulled.

VS's "Four engines for longhaul" fleet is a handicap. BA for instance reckons its 744's are only economically viable if oil stays under $130 a barrel. Fortunately the trend in oil prices at the moment is down.

VS is in a coffin corner for so many reasons: Such a relatively small point to point operator, in the world of huge alliances cannot survive anyway. A pilot strike will simply expedite its demise, and Beardy will for evermore be able to blame BALPA and its members for causing VS to go tits up.

[Dan Winterland]

That just won't happen. Virgin is a brand name with very liitle substance apart from it's image. If VS is allowed to go to the wall, the whole of the Virgin empire will be tarnished and substantially devalued. VS was already in trouble prior to 9/11 as a result of some bad business decisions, not least the re-branding of the J class product and that terrible seat. After 9/11, the airline was only days from going belly up with some drastic actions requred to kepp it and the whole of the Virgin empire going.

Richard couldn't let it happen then and won't let it happen now.

[Ancient Observer]

Mr Dan,
that would be an interesting bet......If we assume that BALPA and members do have a strike, and a "real" one rather than the few days of hoilday taken by BA CC, which way will the bearded one jump?

Impossible to tell.

If I were him, I would let it go, and go off to Necker island and drown my sorrows with a few glasses of something nice. No-one owes VS a future.

I would then sell my lhr slots, and VS would go down the tubes.

From his Island, the Beardie would win the PR war 3 sets to love, and BALPA would look stupid. Nothing new there, then. How would SQ feel? Who cares?

So the pax will be let down, and the VS staff would lose their jobs.

[londonmet]

I might be wrong but I thought BALPA said another announcement would be made yesterday?

[AirResearcher]

I agree with Dan, VS is the flagship of the Virgin brand... and the brand value's reputation - based on Sir Richard's 'ethical' treatment of Virgin employees - would be shattered irreparably - it goes against everything he has ever stood for, built his empire on, and sold countless books about. In short letting VS go would destroy Sir Richards credibility completely.

An yes, BALPA did say there was an announcement due yesterday, and no change on the website which means things must have ramped up yet another gear in the meetings I guess.

Whats interesting if you look at various travel forums, newspaper comments is the travelling public who cant, or dont want to understand the real reasons behind the strike - have been saying for days now that they are shifting bookingsto BA etc as they are now 'sorted' and there's uncertainty over Virgin. Virgins efforts at keeping the public up to date have been pathetic and someone there needs a good kick up the backside for that imho.....

[xray one]

The talks are still ongoing.

There is some real bo!!ocks posted on this forum. Some obviously wishing Virgin to go under, BALPA to fail and see SRB squirm.

97% of 94% of the membership voted to do something about numerous poor decisions past. Yes pay was what we voted on, but it's the whole package. (those who have forgotten or don't realise you can only vote on a single aspect re industrial action)

All we wish for is a well run company that pays industry rates for the experience it needs for a safe operation.

There are enough CEOs out there in differing companies who prove it can be done if there is a will to do so.

[AirResearcher]

Hi Xray 1. Hope you didnt think that was my angle there... it wasnt

I still believe VS is a superb company, and does not deserve that reputation to be tarnished by a few individuals at management failing to recognise those very issues you mention and deal with them fairly and promptly.

I do think though that every day that goes past with no updates to reassure pax and just keep them informed, even if there's no 'news' on VS's website is very unwise.

[vs69]

Well said Xray, as a side note though I dont agree with strike action I do feel that such an overwhelming vote in favour of striking sends a clear message to the leadership (And maybe prompt a bit of C.V writing from some)

[BaldCol]

I do think though that every day that goes past with no updates to reassure pax and just keep them informed, even if there's no 'news' on VS's website is very unwise.


I'm a passenger and yes, thats what we want. Some idea of what's going on. Just something saying the talks are progressing well (or not) would be good. We are heading to peak holiday season and there are an awful lot of families desperate to know something. The current silence from both sides is hopeless. You must remember than many of the people flying over the summer only take one flight a year. This period of uncertainty with no information will live long in the memory even if, as I sure we all hope, there is no actual walkout.

I make no comment about the dispute itself. I don't know the history in full or the internal disputes over management. I just want to see a settlement.

[wiggy]

I dont agree with strike action I do feel that such an overwhelming vote in favour of striking sends a clear message to the leadership

That's exactly what the BA cabin crew were told by their union leaders ....:ooh:

[AirResearcher]

Virgin Atlantic pilot strike: no news is very bad news (http://uk.ibtimes.com/articles/174605/20110705/virgin-atlantic-virgin-pilot-pilot-strikes-strikes-u-k-gatwick-heathrow-richard-branson-balpa-insura.htm)

Note: first paragraph.......

[Count Niemantznarr]

It is looking rather ominous and an interesting conumdrum is in prospect. If the strike goes ahead, Virgin will sub out some of its flights to BA no doubt and other airlines.

Will BALPA members with other carriers cross this 'picket line' so to speak?

With even RyanAir talking about laying up 80 planes this winter, a strike now will certainly knacker VS before the loss making last six months of the financial year.

It is interesting Virgin have not esclated the dispute by threatening to remove striking pilots staff travel for life. Perhaps Beardy is not as tough as Willie Walsh after all.

[Litebulbs]

This is a fascinating exchange, especially as it is based on a pay rise, rather than a departmental restructure.

[p7lot]

Quote: "How have senior management fared financially over the last three years?"

Aha, well isn't that the million pound question...?!


Well nearly...our man Steve is on 750k

can he calculate v speeds ...no
can he put 300 tonnes down in x-wind chop ....no
I can do without 74 acres in the caribbean and I'll gladly fly the ship for 10% of what he makes.
What I can't stomach is upstairs getting 40% pay increases and telling downstairs we cant have 5.

[wiggy]

Will BALPA members with other carriers cross this 'picket line' so to speak?

Tough choice - I'm open to correction but I think that under current UK law if a BALPA member working for another carrier refused to cross a Virgin picket line that action could (in fact probably would) be construed as secondary industrial action and would shortly be followed by the immortal words: "you're fired"..........

Hopefully we won't get into that situation.

[Litebulbs]

I don't think it would be classed as secondary action, just AWOL with the same end result.

[Brakes...beer]

BA have challenges manning their own operation in the summer. I doubt that they, or any other scheduled airline, would be able to 'assist' Virgin in any meaningful way. How much capacity is there in the long-haul charter market?

Looks like Virgin BALPA could be on to a winner.

[AirResearcher]

BALPA: Talks will end today: BALPA - BALPA REMAIN IN VIRGIN TALKS (http://www.balpa.org/News-and-campaigns/News/VIRGIN-UPDATE.aspx)

[Ancient Observer]

Anyone got a decent insight in to Beardy's mind on this?

With a high turnout and high vote for action, I guess that Beardy's call will be key.

Will he support the poor, grossly underpaid management, or will he support the poor, grossly underpaid pilots?

[Tranquility Base]

Any developments?

[Ellis Hill]

I understand a deal has been reached. A relief to all concerned I'm sure.

[BaldCol]

Do you have a source for that Ellis Hill?

[CP32]

He does, pilots to vote on final company offer in due course. Strike called off.

[AirResearcher]

Count N, the VS IA APPEARED to be only about money because a strike can only be called with ONE cause under UK law. In truth it was as much about working conditions, trust and respect of the company management.

Whatever the case, hopefully the result will be fair for all concerned, and lessons will have been learned by VS management regarding the professionalism and value to the company of their exceptional crews who in good faith took a big financial hit to help the company in difficult times.

Trust and respect have to work two ways, and I hope this will shift the direction in a positive manner in the long term

[MungoP]

Well.. all I can say is "Thank God".. I'm on Flight 4 on Monday JFK to LHR and would hate to have missed out.. I have to get my Class 1 renewal and refresh my jaded palate with some good English bitter.. don't mind being stuck in the UK so if you guys feel like it, go ahead with the strike on the 18th.. I'll rest easily in my favourite pub in the Cotswolds... :ok:

[uk104]

Hats off to the Virgin Aircrew for standing your ground and saying enough is enough. I think quite rightly management have decided to "work" with a skilled labour group albeit with a slight threat!
I think the big difference here was your solidarity and firm resolve to get your pay issue fixed and it goes to show that the suits cannot always walk over their manpower assets. Respect!:D

[cpdlcuser]

Can we please show a little more respect?

Sir Richard Branson is a VERY successful businessman and should be respected as such.
I may not agree with 100% of his action and he probably wouldn't agree totally with anyone else for that matter but respect where respect is due.
"Beardy" is derogatory and only fuels resentment. there s enough bad feeling in VS at the moment without this.

[Meeb]

"Beardy" is derogatory and only fuels resentment. there s enough bad feeling in VS at the moment without this.

Yes, one should not call the Wooley Pully 'Beardy' :E

Good on the VS guys n gals, and keep the threat of IA in your back pocket. :ok:

[BBK]

Respect should be a two way thing. Have you forgotten the letter to the cabin crew when they threatened to strike. More recently his letter to the pilots did not address the issues concerning the ballot ie not just pay but the style of (mis)management.

[Obi_Wan]

Respect is earned though action. And just as easily lost.

[beardy]

I object to the misuse of my moniker.

[Ancient Observer]

How good - for the travelling public - that Beardy, down to his last billion, has fixed it for the poor, grossly underpaid management, and the poor, grossly underpaid pilots.
One for the customers?








(http://www.pprune.org/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=6557418)

[p7lot]

It has never been about respect or indeed money primarily.
It has always been about FAIRNESS.
Disproportionate wage increases and crew discontent has evolved into the VS brand being an unhappy workplace, which in turn is reflected in the treatment of the passengers.
Bringing fairness back into the equation will result in happier crews working more productively and therefore being reflected in a more pleasant experience for the travelling passengers.
Another misconception on here is the belief that SRB plays any kind of active role in the day to day running of his airline.

[737Jock]

Hmm don't you think that if he is down to his last billion due to losses in VA, that the customers have already been given their share?

[Bernoulli]

It seems to me as a neutral observer that the root cause of this dispute has been the lack of integrity displayed by the VS management in their dealings with their Pilots.

Within the Pilot community at my employer (one of the UK charter 'majors') there is frequently wide disagreement on almost all aspects of relations with the Company management. I don't suppose that things were much different amongst the VS folk a few years ago. That they have achieved such solidarity on the token issue of pay reveals just how badly they have been let down by their 'management' and how little respect they have been given in recent years.

Well done on your joint stance chaps. Hopefully your managers will in future stick to what they have previously agreed and 'going forward' (:yuk:) will treat you with the respect you deserve..... you certainly have mine.

[cpdlcuser]

BBK, yes I agree respect should be a two way street and it is earned and not given away.
However SRB has earned this respect unlike our pilot management, who have, at best sat and watched this unfold doing nothing to stem the bad feeling within crews and at worst caused the bad feeling due to their own self importance and self promotion. We have a combination of teflon coated good for nothings and turncoats in middle management and downright crooks in top level management. The flight ops department is now run by HR who know nothing about our jobs at the pointy end of a jet, they assume we go to work fly the aircraft and go home, they have never done anything like this job so cannot be expected to know our day to day lives. No, they should not be running flight ops with this background, but they are and until we get rid of this revolving door management style, they are here to stay, as are the CV greasers who screw a few quid out of crews add it to their CV as a saving and clear off to another job selling mobile phones or the next crowd that will fall for the bull**** they spread.

The guys teed up to replace this lot are no better either.

re the letter to CC as I said I don't agree with everything SRB has done and I'm fairly sure he is only given one side of any argument.
The letter to pilots was a press release and not intended to do anything other than get the public on his side. It in no way addressed any of the problems being discussed. This is the way he work, get over it. It works for him and he has virtually no input in VS other than the odd front man in publicity stunts and launches.

[Dan Air 87]

cpdlcuser. Your comments about VS's flight planning are so dead on. HR are flexing their muscles and pretty soon the pilots will have an HR rep telling them what to do. My advice is to join HR..they are the future of the airline!

[Digitalis]

I don't think this is over yet. The press release from BALPA says that the company have issued a 'full and final' pay offer. As yet, no one knows what that offer contains, though the Times is suggesting that the headline numbers haven't changed, and there's nothing in that press release to suggest that BALPA is flushed with its own success in the negotiations. It looks, rather, as if the company has issued some kind of ultimatum which BALPA cannot fight, and they've thrown in the towel - hence the withdrawal of the threat of strike action.

I have a feeling the Virgin pilots may have been sold down the river.

[stakeknife]

I fear Digitalis is correct! Will be interesting to see how the new vote goes!!

[Cyber Bob]

Nothing like a bit more drama. Let's see what's been offered before the assumed, mad scramble for paddles Digitalis :=

[BBOWFIGHTER]

I do not agree that BALPA have negotiated nothing and I don't believe that the managment would have been that daft as to draw a line that would be unacceptable to the pilots. A "final offer" can mean anything at this stage so it will be wise to see what it is.

The truth is that the senior management are so full of themselves that they have no idea which way is up. Their handling, and Ridgway's in particular, laid their mat out when he stated that that a below inflation rise is not a pay cut. That was crass.

Now that an agreement may be on the horizon what about the managment and their ineptitude in dealing with a 97% vote for IA? What about the woman who said that she would break the unions? What about HR being not capable of running water let alone running an airline. The product has dropped and it continues to do so. Aircraft are dirty and in need of refurbishment and management are in and out through an ever open door with the result that VS is changing for the worse. Ridgway is the supposed leader so why doesn't he lead? In many people's minds they believe he can NEVER recover the worth and pride that was once the Virgin brand. He has let it slip but still RB persists with him.

My suggestion to RB is to have a strong word with his mate and tell him how to really run an airline. I would also guess that VS is carrying more surplus staff than one full 744 - maybe two. This one factor alone can cause so many difficulties and disenchanment it is enough to drag the name and the airline down. It doesn't deserve that.

The pilots have demonstrated that there was no need for uncontrolled anger, though there must have been some, when their cause was just and fair. They played the game. The management chose to play another game, which only antagonised them and led to a massive unwinable stance by a management who seem not to understand that the WHOLE airline relies on pilots and its aeroplanes. The rest, including the CC, follow if the airline is being run properly. There is some serious doubt about that.

Sometime soon it will be known what the terms are that BALPA negotiated with the VS management. It is hoped that it is what it should be - a fulfilled promise. Not very difficult - so why was it?

[Dan Air 87]

I wonder if Sir Beardie has been influenced by O'Leary of late? We could see the flight crew doing other duties on board to pay for the "increase"! I'm sure HR would love to see the crew multi tasking.

[BBK]

Well the offer is out there now so the number crunching can begin. What I don't understand is why was the option of IA taken off the table. It would make sense, perhaps, if the offer had significantly been raised.

I'll let the number experts do the maths and see how it pans out. I hope it is worth it otherwise the company have wriggled free again.

[Count von Altibar]

Will be interesting to see the details. Have BALPA called off the strike in favour of a significant improvement in the offer or not? Can't wait to find out!

[The Big Easy]

The VS management rhetoric in the press would suggest its a done deal! Correct me if I'm wrong but surely the offer needs to go to a ballot.

Looks like this dispute may have legs!

TBE.

[fincastle84]

Surely, if BALPA are recommending acceptance then the members of the 2 winged master race will agree to the terms. Otherwise they sack their union reps!

[Count Niemantznarr]

Bernouli. There is no lack of integritiy by VS management, their position has been constant. There is nothing to negotiate. They are doing what any good management should do and that is to keep costs down.

In an article in yesterday's Times (8/7/11), it looks like BALPA has rolled over again. The 'final' VS offer they are recommending is hardly any different to that when Virgin pilots first voted for industrial action. What a victory!!

The only tweaking being flexible rosters, profit share (how would you know if VS made a profit anyway?) and the 'promise' of some overtime. Hardly a collapse of the VS management position, but more of a face saving deal for BALPA and VS pilots, whose sphincters are now trembling at the prospect of industrial action.

Looks like the "Proud" VS pilots have no stomach for seeing through this spat, in order to gain a meaningful increase to their pay.

[Count von Altibar]

That's all fine until the VS pilots most likely reject the BALPA/VS management deal then they're all back to square one. Can't see the VS pilots voting for it.

[free at last]

No guts no glory a bunch of sideway talk, strike if you must, you might get paid more than the bus driver in you'r town, otherwise please!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ugh:

[MrBernoulli]

No guts no glory a bunch of sideway talk, strike if you must, you might get paid more than the bus driver in you'r town, otherwise please!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ugh: And what might all that mean .... in plain English???????

[Safety Concerns]

Count whatever your name is, surely the role of a GOOD trade union during pay discussions is to squeeze as much as they can without damaging the hand that feeds.

So with management doing all they can to keep costs down (fair enough) and the union squeezing to get as much as possible (fair enough), isn't the likely outcome when a GOOD trade union is involved, is a little extra here and there?

Now I have no idea what the virgin pilots think about this offer but isn't just possible that BALPA, under the circumstances, have in fact done a bloody good job.


Bernouli. There is no lack of integritiy by VS management, their position has been constant. There is nothing to negotiate. They are doing what any good management should do and that is to keep costs down.

In an article in yesterday's Times (8/7/11), it looks like BALPA has rolled over again. The 'final' VS offer they are recommending is hardly any different to that when Virgin pilots first voted for industrial action. What a victory!!

The only tweaking being flexible rosters, profit share (how would you know if VS made a profit anyway?) and the 'promise' of some overtime. Hardly a collapse of the VS management position, but more of a face saving deal for BALPA and VS pilots, whose sphincters are now trembling at the prospect of industrial action.

Looks like the "Proud" VS pilots have no stomach for seeing through this spat, in order to gain a meaningful increase to their pay.

[Tankengine]

Best of luck to all the Virgin Atlantic crews.:ok:

Qantas crews have just voted on PIA in Australia, 89% of pilots voted, 94% YES to industrial action. [first time since 1966]

We only want <3% pay-rise but some security against off-shoring our jobs.

Worldwide it is time to stop this cancer and the demeaning of our profession.:D

[Digitalis]

Nothing like a bit more drama. Let's see what's been offered before the assumed, mad scramble for paddles Digitalis

Paddles issued. Sale done and dusted. Balpa have wasted 8 months of negotiation and a 97% vote for industrial action. The deal is the same as the one 'offered' on day 1, yet the threat of strikes has been withdrawn. I would guess Balpa's future in Virgin is on a knife edge now.

Balpa are presenting this as some kind of success on their website. I'd love to know what it would take for them to declare a failure!

[CaptainProp]

So what you are saying is "Stop fighting for better T&Cs in this business because there are lots of people worse off than you." ? ?

Is that how we maintain "integrity"?

[CaptainProp]

Because that's what unions do...? :ugh:

[oxymoron666]

So what is the inside scoop then folks - just why is the VACC recomending that you accept the deal.??

Because BALPA and the VACC sold us out and are now trying to pretend they have some "greater" knowledge. Apparently after 8 months of negotiation in the final few days the Company said that they are in such dire financial straits that if the pay deal went ahead they would have to close routes and make redundancies.

As a Union member for 20 years I have never felt so betrayed. They Marched us up to the top of the hill and then the Grand Old Duke of York went to the pub with his final salary pension scheme, company car and £35K a month from pilots in Virgin and did a 180 degree turn.

Still it's election time next year for the General Secretary and some of us remember Chris Darke's demise. Perhaps he should show some humility and admit he lead us into a fight he was not ultimately going to support.

The VACC asked for support for strike action. Virgin Pilots gave it and told their family's, their banks and their colleagues that the action was just. 8 Months later BALPA ask us now to accept the same deal that was offered back then.

If I had a word of caution beware of whether BALPA act in your interest or just want media grabbing headlines " BALPA secures deal in Virgin Atlantic" Funny how they dropped the handshake symbol of their website so quickly after it was questioned.

BALPA and the VACC have sold out. We have damaged the VAA Brand and business and in return they have accepted a pay deal that was given to all non unionised employees!

F

[8029848s]

IMHO I feel VA pilots need to stop whinging, and start realising they are already onto a good deal.

750 hours a year.....if only!

Yes we all know your management is distinctly lacking in ability but you work for a small operation linked to a big brand. Nothing more.

Regardless of the irregular and highly inaccurate accounting processesof VA I would be surprised if the airline has made any money during the recession.

On top of this even with the strong link to the Virgin brand SA have been unable to find a buyer for the 49% stake they hold for a number of years....why.......because no major airline is willing to take on a loss making company which is looking increasingly isolated.

As a pilot for a slightly larger company not only have I taken a pay cut over the last three years but also taken unpaid leave and worked unpaid. O, did I forget to mention the 900 hours as well.

To summaries, boys, you’re on a good deal and although your managers are lacking chill out.

Just fly your 330s and enjoy the 750 hours while it lasts.

:E

[GA Button]

The answer is simple - give the VACC a 97% rejection of this initial offer and a second 97% vote in favour of a strike - stand together and both the union and the company will have to listen.

[BarrowBoy]

Having been sold out by BALPA in 2001/2002 does no one learn their lesson. I was involved with the TDC's for those who remember that body...we had to threaten BALPA with legal action to get them to represent us as expected & deserved based on the extortionate cost.....but alas a leopard never changes its spots & those whom think is does are deluded.....

I left BALPA (and VAA) & joined the TGWU as it was then & for 20% of the cost I got far better representation than BALPA ever offered.

Stand up to BALPA & the VACC.....97% is a massive protest vote.....dont let it go unheeded.

Good Luck

[Bigbus330]

Reckon a "surprise" NO vote is a distinct possibility. Despite the rhetoric trying to justify an embarrassing climb down and U-turn, the level of anger amongst our colleagues is palpable.

[t211]

It seems nothing changes In the Airline world, Yet again Balpa have sold the Pilots down the River, I would never work for Virgin but I am surprised that the pilots use BALPA they could set up there own Organisation and save 1% a year I'ts probably more now. I think the old saying Is that BALPA stands for British Airways Line Pilots Association. I have another word for them that can't be Repeated on here

[Tranquility Base]

What is the 'new' offer that is being recommended?

[Safety Concerns]

when are you lot gonna grow up? If a union takes a Scargill stand, last man and all that and kills off the industry, the union has lost the plot and are far too militant.

Yet when a union takes a more cautious stand and sincerely believes the company is at risk if they follow through with industrial action you have all been sold out.

Make your bloody minds up what you want. Fight to the end where everyone loses or sensible negotiation to improve on what's already a good deal.

You should also not lose sight of where your excellent terms and conditions originated. It certainly wasn't the generosity of any airline.

[SplashDown]

Hang on a sec here... Forgive my simplistic view here but there might be a reason for the Virgin CC to go through the motions in putting this offer to the members. If 97% rejected it first off then there should be no doubt that near on damn it 97% will reject it this time around.

Unless someone wishes to post the full details and background to this offer then I for one can't see this as a 'selling down the river' business from BALPA. Just a process that really only concerns VAA members.

Good luck guys and girls

[Tranquility Base]

Forgive me for sounding naive but isn't the UK economy still very fragile? Wouldn't it be prudent to accept a 4% increase this year and review it again in 12 months time?

Surely any large salary increases awarded in the higher echelons of the company (post agreement) would be evidence/ammunition to support improved pay offers for the masses in due course.

It may be 'bluff' on the part of management at VS but is it worth taking the gamble, and potentially damaging the reputation, and financial health of Virgin Atlantic?

[Thad Jarvis]

I have no idea about the perceived abilities of the Virgin Co Council but it's hard to comprehend that they would lead the troops to the brink and then suddenly change their mind. There must be more to this scenario that what is posted here. If a CC recommend acceptance of a deal which is subsequently rejected that becomes very damaging to them. More often than not this is a result of poor comms or inability to get the message across. The truth is out there somewhere. It needs aired properly before you guys vote again.

[Count von Altibar]

So does anybody know what actually went on here? Was a much improved offer made? I sincerely hope so after such a strong vote in favour of industrial action.

[MrBenip]

Well Count, doesn't this sound very familiar? You will remember what happened in BMI just a few years ago with that strong mandate.

[Count von Altibar]

Very true MrBenip, I'm coming to the conclusion that BALPA is run like a business just taking 1% off a relatively high earning group of individuals. I wonder how much Jim Mc earns etc.? It would be very interesting to find out! They seem to run a mile from any form of confrontation. I've heard that the deal was pretty much the same as the initial offer from the company. At bmi however, we don't even get an offer from the company and BALPA do absolutely nothing about it:ugh:

[MrBenip]

Count, I have asked around and according to several engineers it would seem they get the 'going rate' as do the cabin crew and check-in staff, so why is it that just the pilots are expected to subsidise the airline? To keep the thread on track is this the same at VS?

It feels as though there is an industry wide conspiracy to drive down pilot's terms and conditions although perhaps this is by now obvious to everyone. It sure is a shame when you feel the union representing pilots does not seem to have the will to address this slippery downhill slope.

I'm personally tired of hearing that we would drive the company out of business if we got the going rate, it seems VS are making the same threat as well now. Either they can afford to run an airline or they can't. I wonder how low will it go before pilots worldwide really kick-off, then Joe public might have to be charged a quid or two more per ticket.

It seems the airlines still have enough cash though to hose down the suited gods and top bean counters with obscene amounts of cash, whether they do a good job or not. I think this more than anything really ticks us off, because one thing is for sure its not the pilots that are dragging the companies fortunes down!

I guess at the end of the day it's all about supply and demand. I can't think of
any other profession where people are willing to pay to work. Rant over.

[xwindflirt]

Amen benip

[stormin norman]

A peak at the books by BAPLA have made them run a mile -Just how bad, cash flow wise is it at Virgin Atlantic ?

[Bigbus330]

As good or bad as they wish to present (spin) it!!

[eagerbeaver1]

Exactly, the mob I used to work for makes pots of cash but still managed to show a loss through the winter so they could do us out of agreed payrise.

I would say that Virgin is probably doing just fine.

Good luck

[skip.rat]

As Mr B / Count VA have alluded to;- at bmi, as part of a multi-year pay deal in 2004/5 it was agreed that there would be salary negotiations to determine the remuneration levels for the final year of that pay deal.
Come the final year- no negotiation on the part of the airline ("there's no money left") Following a vote circa 90% in favour of action, BALPA were "shown the books", renegotiated & recommended to the pilots that we accept a new (not very different) "offer". Cue vote for acceptance & a 51% vs. 49% result in favour of new offer - which was a deal for a very modest increase; something like RPI + 1.5%, move up one increment on the scales, and at least RPI in the final (3rd) year.

A week later the company posts a £30M profit.

Come the final year of the above deal, following assurances by the CEO in December 2008 that "the RPI increase would be honoured", in the week that the increase was to take place, many pilots (myself included) had increased salaries withdrawn from our bank accounts & re-credited with a non-increased salary a few days later. ("there's no money left")
Said CEO then has the audacity to answer questions on BBC's programme "Working Lunch" saying that he never took money from anyone's account (sure- he didn't, but the payroll firm employed by him certainly did- on someone's orders)

In the same year (2009) that all the pilots had an enforced pay freeze (which, incidentally still extends to today & will the way things are looking turn out to be a 3 year one) - it turns out that the guy that told us there was no money left allegedly awarded himself a 300% pay rise taking his salary to £1.5M just before he buggered off, no doubt also enhancing his pension in the process just as our FS pension was closed.:ugh:

I know this post is slightly off-thread, but it demonstrates the kind of people that are running the airlines today;
The guys on the CC are pilots, not accountants- I have to say that I'm sure if I were shown a set of figures that indicated a poor financial position, I wouldn't know whether they were truthful or total BS. What level of accountancy skills do the guys at big BALPA have when analysing the data the company puts before them? Moreover, would it be possible for someone with the right skills to spot a bit of creative accountancy by the airlines?

For all the money that BALPA receives, is the weak link the lack of ability of the union to spot that you're being sold down the river come negotiating time?

I'm not knocking any of the CCs, merely suggesting that at a national level there might be a lack of ability to counter the (obviously) very skilful, and (definitely) very devious practices by some (or most) of those running the airlines. (BTW I'm still a member of BALPA- living in hope).

[Mr.Bloggs]

Yep, sorry to say it, but you've been outwitted guys!

[petewood]

I got the impression while looking to book that any possible pilot strikes later this year, are resolved so I assume they must have accepted the pay offer.

Any idea if the details of the offer will ever become public, and how many actually voted to accept, it I doubt it was as high as the number voting to strike before.

[MrBenip]

Whatever it was it looks they have all been sworn to secrecy! It's suddenly gone very quiet on here.

[BBK]

MrB

Nothing to report yet. The ballot on the pay deal ends this week. Last week saw the closure of the ballot for a new company council. I wouldn't put money on the outcome of either.

[DooblerChina]

So what was the deal?

[rod_1986]

Who knows, but what skip.rat said above might prove prescient given the £18.5 million profit VA posted this morning...

2nd UPDATE: Virgin Atlantic Swings To Profit, Plans To Modernize Cabins - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20110810-713694.html)

[stormin norman]

Looks like BALPA have been turned over yet again.

[DooblerChina]

Who knows, but what skip.rat said above might prove prescient given the £18.5 million profit VA posted this morning...


True, but to be fair, 18.5m is hardly breaking any records.

[Thick E]

Agreed 18.5M is not massive in the big scheme of things but it would have been enough to appease the pilots pay request.

I agree with Stormin Norman, BALPA have either once again wimped out or again acted like muppets and believed everything that the Company(s) tell them. I could list countless examples of where BALPA do some chest beating and then run a mile at the first signs of confrontation/industrial action. How many times have they gone through companies accounts and agreed with the management that the Company can't afford to make the necessary pay increases, only to find a year later that the CEO & top management walk away with golden handshakes or pay increases of their own?

The two reasons I remain a BALPA member was to better/maintain my T&C's despite the Union now seeming to be doing a good job at pi$$ing that away and also for the forum regarding Company news. I have now come to the conclusion that both of these are not worth my 1%. I wonder how many others, especially Virgin pilots will now suddenly withdraw their subscriptions?

BALPA staff, if you read this you should be ashamed of yourselves. Many of the airlines once considered you a thorn in their side, now though you are only a joke.

[MrBenip]

If BA pilots are happy, BALPA is happy - (British Airways Line Pilots Association) - Simples!

[Yellow Pen]

Then perhaps you'd like to explain why the Virgin Company Council are happy, given that none of them work for BA?

[gatbusdriver]

Surely it is the VACC who have wasted your 97% vote in favour of strike action. Hopefully they have explained their recommendation fully to you. Although judging by the rather lukewarm, apathetic acceptance of the deal, I would guess not.

I feel sorry for your new VACC, as they have an awful lot of work to do to gain the support and trust of the members.

I do hope your management fulfill their side of the bargain, but I guess none of you will hold your breath.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

The fact is that more than half of Virgin pilots accepted the deal, whatever that deal is as no one seems to know! Nonetheless, the CC were faced with a tricky situation. An £18.5m profit is really wafer-thin and had they called a strike the company would have made a loss. Virgin is now a small fish in a big pond - they could yet go the way of Laker. The CC know this and recognise the importance of not shooting the golden goose. That strikes me as solid judgement, and from where I sit BALPA were not turned over - they took the money and ran away at the right time.

[sicknote]

From Heathrow Skyport, 13th August 2011:

Virgin pilots accept new pay deal
By Salina Patel

PILOTS at Virgin Atlantic have accepted an improved pay offer removing the threat of any strike action.

Members of the British Airline Pilots Association (BALPA) voted 63 per cent in favour of the new agreement on an 87 per cent poll which saw workers secure a three year increase in basic salary of 3.5 per cent backdated to January this year, followed by three per cent in 2012 and 2013.

The package deal also included other offers such as 'flying pay' which is a top-up on pay for flying hours, a profit share scheme financially rewarding pilots when the company makes a profit, and a programme to review pilot lifestyle focused on modifying rosters, schedules and travel policies.

Jim McAuslan, BALPA's general secretary said: "Virgin Atlantic pilots voted overwhelmingly for strike action (97 per cent on a 94 per cent poll) in June but given some improvement on pay, against very tough trading conditions, and commitments to improve lifestyle, they have now decided to settle this pay round with the future in mind.

"Now we need to work together - management and association - to get Virgin back to the airline it once was."

A Virgin Atlantic spokeswoman, said: "We are very pleased that our pilots have accepted our pay offer as we value their commitment and expertise enormously.

"The offer that has been agreed is both fair and affordable and the company would like to thank our pilots' representatives for gaining a good understanding of the wider economic climate and commending the pay award."

The union now wants to close the gap between management and pilots' working relations in light of the fact Virgin came close to its first ever industrial action from staff.

In a letter to Sir Richard Branson, Mr McAuslan highlighted that although long service pilots recalled Virgin being fuelled by passion, fun, and unbounded enthusiasm that feeling was not the 'DNA' of today.

He also said pilots needed to hear less about how things used to be and more about how they ought to be; and that management did "too much listening and not enough hearing".

Mr McAuslan added: "There are lessons for us all in this dispute and BALPA's board will be tabling ideas on how we can be robust, professional and business-like in our dealings and we will be looking to engage with progressive employers in this way."

[Stjuk]

Could anyone shed some light on what exactly this new pay deal includes?

[vsflight]

Nothing. There's supposed to be a new relationship but we've still got the guy with the biggest ego in the company in charge of Operations. We had hoped he'd go but he's still clinging on.
Most of us are resigned to the fact that this company will never be what it once was.
Pity really.