Ash Cloud Damage

[Riddick]

So what's the truth in the rumor that 4 virgin aircraft grounded due ash cloud leading edge damage. I heard the engineers were pissed that they had to do a boroscope inspection for the engines.

None of this ever makes the news but lucky virgin kept flying.

[SRM]

Not luck, but sensible and safe Flight Operations & Maintenance.

Nil Damage Evident.

[TBM-Legend]

what are they doing flying near the ash cloud putting the travelling public potentially at risk - not to mention the shareholders..

[big buddah]

This is why it's called Pprune! Nothing like rumours.

TBM legend, what ever?

[GAFA]

TBM,

Just like every other operator, (except the QF group and Tiger) it was safe to fly.
More airlines found it safe to fly provided the required separation (vertical or horizontal) was followed.
Not one airline (including Virgin) has found an sign of ash damage on any aircraft.

[nitpicker330]

TBM- Legend..... You accept the substantial risk of flying a single engine turbo prop IFR at night over tiger country don't you? One assumes you've made the risk assessment and come to a safe decision regarding the above. So don't criticize others for doing the exact same thing mate.:D

[Keg]

Hmm. Fly a turbo prop with a known maintenance history at night or fly under a cloud of ash of unknown density and base of unknown height- except based on computer models. I know which I'd pick.

[S70IP]

Ash Cloud Damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So what's the truth in the rumor that 4 virgin aircraft grounded due ash cloud leading edge damage. I heard the engineers were pissed that they had to do a boroscope inspection for the engines.

None of this ever makes the news but lucky virgin kept flying.

Source? Evidence?

[Riddick]

Exactly my question. But from the responses looks like more rumor than anything else.

[campdoag]

Standard qantas response hey keg????

The density has absolutely no relevance if you are not in the affected airspace.... The modeling accuracy wrt the altitude of the cloud is quite high hence the risk assessment conducted by every airline that flys into Australia except Qf and tiger, allowed for continued operations.

But hey what would airlines the likes of Cathay, emirates, ethiad, south African, Singapore, Malaysian, united and virgin know.......

An interesting point of note on day 2 of the ash saga.. Was operating a service hba-syd at 180 below the forcast ash area and observed a contrail well above our level. Atc when quieried, advised that it was a Qf 737 operating in the ash advisory area at 320..... I guess qantas must have knowledge the rest of the universe doesn't.......

[Keg]

Standard QF response campdoag? Nothing else I post on PPRUNE is normally 'standard Qantas response'- and a reading of many of my previous posts would tend to confirm that I have no qualms with sledging QF if it's deserved- so I'm not going to start with this issue.

However, an 'appeal to authority' and the fact that SQ, CX, EK, etc are all flying doesn't do much for me. I'm sure we've all got examples whereby other airlines did things that we all found strange- you quoted one in your post. SQ attempted to take off in Taipei one night when others were saying 'no' and look how that turned out. I've watched SQ (and others) disappear into massive CBs ex SIN too but that doesn't mean that it's 'safe' to fly.

Perhaps other airlines have more info that QF have- wouldn't be the first time. Based on my reading of the issues though- and not just based upon what QF tell me- I can only say that the prospect of flying under an ash area of unknown/forecast base and unknown/ forecast concentration doesn't fill me with the warm fuzzy feeling that I like to have whenever I go flying.

A couple of other points. The density has direct relevance if you fly into it. If you're basing your flight on flying at FL230 because the models say the ash is all above FL300 then that's your call. The question is though, how do we treat forecasts of turbulence? With scepticism? Do we think that because the forecast says that the turbulence is FL280 to FL350 that we can't get 'bounced' at FL250 (or below) or above FL350 due to the same 'system' that is causing the forecast area from 280-350?

For me, I'm glad that QF made the decision not to fly. It saved me from having to do a LOT more work to ensure that the decision made by office whallahs wasn't going to impact on the person who actually has the legal responsibility for the flight- IE, me.

[nitpicker330]

That's your choice Keg man :)
CX has extensive history flying in areas of ash clouds all over the world as it effects some part of our network somewhere most days.
Seems the proof of the pudding is in the eating and as of now not one single RR Trent in our 330 fleet has evidence if Ash ingestion after flying below the ash area in Oz.

Not that I'm saying QF were wrong, just that their risk assessment ( probably helped along by GE RR PW and your leasing companies ) decision was not to fly. QF's choice but at the end of the day it COST QF a lot of dollars to stay on the ground when it appears the ash models were correct and if anything very conservative.

[catseye]

From a long discussion with VAAC a while ago they indicated additional buffers should not be put on their forecasts as they already include significant amounts of spare space.

:ok:

[S70IP]

Ok. Just went down to the engineering hut in MEL and asked. Complete bullocks. One aircraft had what looked like some evidence but turned out just bugs and normal dust.

End of thread fellas. FFS.

[an3_bolt]

Its a computer model - which is an educated guess.

Just like your inter thunderstorms on the TAF.

Or when you turn up and the weather is not as forecast.

I'm with you Keg.

[nitpicker330]

It's computer predictions based on Multi Spectral Satellite techniques, it's continually updated and not a guess at all.

I'm sure most of you would have seen this:--

BoM-Darwin Volcanic Ash Advisory Centre (http://www.bom.gov.au/info/vaac/detect.shtml)

[waren9]

I'm a bit more of a cynic.

I believe the QF group and Tiger did not fly for reasons political more than anything else.

They each have some hot potatoes with the local regulator and some senators that other very experienced airlines do not. They simply did not want the heat that would inevitably come with an aircraft that suffered any ash damage whatsoever.

[Keg]

If it's not a 'guess', then why are these shapes (http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDD65290.shtml)so indistinct?

I'm sure the airlines get much more accurate information and with smaller time frames between decision to enable decisions on an hour by hour basis about where the ash is and at what levels.

[Bypass ratio]

I'm agreeing with Waren9 on this one. With Tiger's "show cause" recently & Qantas' track record on maintenance these least few years, I'm quite certain it was politically motivated. Unfortunately, Qantas is on the way out.....

[FlareArmed]

The threat with a low-density cloud is the potential maintenance cost; not crashing. Inspections – possible maintenance – and servicing is needed for aircraft that fly through an actual or forecast ash cloud (low density clouds may not be visible).

Air New Zealand dodged the forecast areas and monitored their aircraft – the Chief Pilot said their was no evidence of ash ingestion.

I was told by a pilot that Air New Zealand was getting better than public information about the position and height of the cloud, and the methods used were reliable – it seems to have worked, and their customers are happy.

[ross_M]

The modeling accuracy wrt the altitude of the cloud is quite high hence the risk assessment conducted by every airline that flys into Australia except Qf and tiger, allowed for continued operations.

But hey what would airlines the likes of Cathay, emirates, ethiad, south African, Singapore, Malaysian, united and virgin know.......

I'm SLF so not qualified to speak about the aviation aspects.

But from a purely risk-assessment framework: If you had an uncertain risk that impacts all your assets versus the same risk impacting only a few of your assets wouldn't the rational response be different?

I was speculating that might reflect in the native Airlines being less likely to operate? I am assuming Quantas saying "we'll fly 10% of our routes for risk hedging" was not an option.

[Angle of Attack]

There was some abrasion damage albeit minor to some Virgin aircraft, directly from a Virgin engineer, and interesting to note that Virgin are first to suspend flights to Adelaide tomorrow ;) Rumours are smoke there is usually a fire that caused it :)

[fmcinop]

What utter rot! VB as of 19:00 tonight's have found no evidence of an ash encounter by any of its aircraft.

[Scamp Damp]

VB, QF and TT have cancelled services to/from ADL tomorrow...

I think there is a handful of QF services that are leaving ADL in the AM, but it looks like from the BOM that there could be a few interesting days ahead...

[Hugh Jarse]

Absolute bollox, AoA, Riddick, et al.

No VA aircraft have been affected by volcanic ash. Routine engineering checks were ongoing during the whole period, and revealed nothing.

Therefore, their modelling and risk analysis was correct. I did 2 days of SY-HB during the peak threat and had every confidence in our Met and risk analysis people in our OCC. Our flights were done in clear conditions - as predicted by our OCC.

The fact that other airlines cancelled flights, where we continued flying doesn't mean one company is "less safe" or "more gun shy" than the other. You just need to accept that the various companies affected came up with different conclusions based on the data at hand.

Nothing more, and nothing less.

[Long Bay Mauler]

I guess those pics at VA maint watch were wrong :rolleyes:

Apparently the pictures revealed a layer of ash in areas exposed with panels removed.

There is no shame in being wrong, the industry just expects honesty instead of hiding the truth.

[gobbledock]

I guess those pics at VA maint watch were wrong :rolleyes:
Too late now, I am sure the pics have been 'lost'.

[Hugh Jarse]

I guess those pics at VA maint watch were wrong :rolleyes:

Apparently the pictures revealed a layer of ash in areas exposed with panels removed.

There is no shame in being wrong, the industry just expects honesty instead of hiding the truth. Where is your evidence, bugalugs? Post it up mate, otherwise it's nothing more than a rumour.

[Long Bay Mauler]

I guess youre an engineer Hugh. If you are,you will no doubt see them or speak with a person who has.

I have not seen the pictures in question myself,but I would bet my left nut that the engineer who told me, is telling the truth.

:ok:

[kimir]

Nothing on the company DSR across all fleets.

[rodchucker]

As an observer of this thread, I find its contents quite disconcerting because someone is telling porkies and there isn't any middle ground.

On the one hand we have an airline that is being completely maligned with no evidence and on the other hand we have an issue that could affect us all.

Rumours are rumours, but rumours with malicious intent are something else without proof.

Can someone make it clearer to me or mods take control

[kimir]

Agreed, post some proof or shut it down.

[Hugh Jarse]

Exactly, Kimir and Rodchucker. There is NOTHING in the DSR about the rubbish posted in this thread. It's purely vexatious trash.

Bugalugs, I'm not an engineer. However the reporting between engineering and flight ops is robust. There has been nothing mentioned at all.

....but I would bet my left nut that the engineer who told me, is telling the truth.Mate, bet your wife. Bet your job, but NEVER bet your balls. ;)

Especially on hearsay. You may find yourself neutered.

[gobbledock]

Hugh Jarse settle down, don't take it too personal big fella.
Have we had a bad week, it's only Monday ??

[Hugh Jarse]

Naahh, I'm not taking it personally at all, gobbledock. I've had a fantastic week, thanx. A "noice" long weekend, actually. :} Plus another next weekend. Life is good! Might take the bike out for a blast next Sat'dy :E

Sorry, but I just can't just sit back and let complete, unsubstantiated lies go unchallenged. Particularly when not a single person has offered a shred of evidence to back up the original claim.:ok:

And I'll still never bet my balls on what somebody tells me :}

[KABOY]

SBS Dateline | A Wing and a Prayer (http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/story/transcript/id/601201/n/A-Wing-and-a-Prayer)

Questions whether we should get emotional about these things.

[gobbledock]

And I'll still never bet my balls on what somebody tells me http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

Agreed. Those fuzzy dusters are too precious to bet over volcanic ash !!

[Keg]

Agreed, post some proof or shut it down.

Sort of defeats the purpose of PPRUNE then doesn't it? :E :ok:

[kimir]

they should call it prune and leave the professional part out then hey keg!

[ozbiggles]

Well the Karma of PPrune is that when people start a thread like this when and if it turns out to be false they shred their cred.
Its also easy to get an idea of who they work for and what their motive may be.

[Angle of Attack]

They are keeping it hush of course, dont want the media to get involved. I am not saying there was any safety related issues just that ash was found deposited in some VB aircraft, thus why VB has now been straight off the blocks to cancel services this time round, as they say what goes around comes around! :E

Haha post proof? well lets make this site redundant then! FFs..

[Jabawocky]

Thread drift on.....
Life is good! Might take the bike out for a blast next Sat'dy http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

Jarse...... when ya bringing the bike up here where its warmer and coming for a ride with Chimbu Chuck and the gang?


..........................OK back to normal viewing :ooh:

[Mr.Buzzy]

Anyone else seen the 0600z vaac polygon?

Tuesday onward be most entertaining!!!!!

Bbbbbzbzbzbzbzbzbz

[waren9]

Yep. Anyone departing YMML in the morning should prolly also pack a toothbrush.

[Going Nowhere]

QF latest,
CBR closed from 1200
SYD closed from 1500. :uhoh:

[waren9]

Well, no new update from Jetstar as at 0905 this morning.

Still just ADL affected for now.

A different approach this time or a new update due out shortly?

[Capn Bloggs]

Only the riff-raff is being covered. The powerhouse of the country is well in the clear. :ok:

[Mr.Buzzy]

Yep. It's always a good idea to keep the quarry out of town!!


Bbbbbzbzbzbzbz z

[Sunstar320]

All MEL/CBR/SYD flights canceled tomorrow also.

[Jabawocky]

Fixes the ATC shortage some what :E

So would the Europe/USA flights be better sent to Brisbane, at least then they have a slim chance of getting to where they want to go. I know it would not suit everyone.

[AussieAviator]

Heard from a QF engineer that SIA B777 morning flight into ADL today has suffered significant ash damage, and is grounded in ADL. Does anybody know any more?

[Xcel]

Was interesting today...Could be a little worse tomorrow.

Heard crossing traffic a330 - citation - and metro all at fl160
And again a few hrs later at fl190...

Pretty obvious during daytime operations, no news that I've heard that anyone has damage or encountered anything - all pretty boring stuff

Cmon sensationalist media let's get some good gossip going:ugh:

[7378FE]

Does anybody know any more?

It was an A330 and left ADL 6 mins late. :rolleyes:

[Worrals in the wilds]

So would the Europe/USA flights be better sent to Brisbane,Short of turning Airport Drive into a big standoff bay there's only so much parking, particularly for anything bigger than a 767/A330. Morning fog in Sydney creates enough dramas in Brisbane, let alone adding the Melbourne stuff as well.

[Jabawocky]

WITW

Come on girl, you can try a bit harder, its only a few extra flights a day :ok:

Now here is something you do not see at this time of day very often :ooh:
http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab58/jaba430/YSSYQuiet21-6-11.jpg

Ooooh another one........
http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab58/jaba430/YSSY2Quiet21-6-11.jpg

[Worrals in the wilds]

Maybe some valet parking tugs would help :}.
Spookily quiet on webtrack.

I see on the news that Greyhound are putting on extra buses and Hertz et al must be raking it in, so it's an ill wind that blows no-one any good, even when it's got ash in it. Kudos to the airlines who are putting people up in hotels etc, it's not like an ash cloud was their fault.

Sometimes we humans forget how vulnerable all our little toys are when it comes to forces of nature.

[Hugh Jarse]

Jabber, will be in Casino visiting the 'lations on the 8-10 July, then taking the slow route back home to be home by the 14th. Doin' it on the bike.

Beer o'clock?

AoA, dunno who you work for, but our company is quite open and proactive with communication on this matter. Nothing has been mentioned re ash being found in aircraft.

Therefore, your assertion is once again a furphy.

Could it be that the reason VA is "first off the blocks" this time (your words) is that the data this time is different to that of last week? (which it is).

Face up to it, AoA. There is no conspiracy to withhold information.:ugh:

It's all in your mind :rolleyes:

[Jabawocky]

Casino!

Be in Coral Bay WA, long way to go for a beer! Maybe next time :ok:

[Ultralights]

i was a bit sceptical re the ash cloud and its effects, until i had a look at my car this evening under a street light after getting home, nice fine layer of grey dust over it.. in Sydney.

[Angle of Attack]

I said VB not VA, anyway

time will tell! :ok:

[Jabawocky]

How will that go in ya rotax air filer UL? :uhoh:

[Ultralights]

air filter is only 5 hrs old, she will be fine!
just hope its clear for the snow trip to Jindy this weekend! dont want to wear off the tips of the brand new prop!

[amberale]

Fixes the ATC shortage some what http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

So would the Europe/USA flights be better sent to Brisbane, at least then they have a slim chance of getting to where they want to go. I know it would not suit everyone.

I was expeting a plethora of light twins picking up where the jets couldn't ala the "pilot dispute'.
We were overloaded then but it hasn't seemed to happen this time.

AA

[Sunfish]

International flights coming in to YMML under FL20.

Flightradar24.com - Live Flight Tracker! (http://www.flightradar24.com/)

[airtags]

Reported JQ resuming tas flts but QF still nil ops pending review later today.
Kind of mocks the "group" consistent safety line so well expressed at the Senate Inquiry. ??

Why fly under this week but not last week - $afety fir$t?

[nitpicker330]

Questions now have to be asked WHY QF isn't flying. Many many international operators from highly respected safe Airlines are continuing to operate without Engine damage or risk to life and limb. CX, SQ, TG, NZ, EK, Royal Brunei, China Southern, Qatar, Air Mauritius, Garuda, Etihad, Air Asia etc etc. All these Airlines check their Aircraft for damage and so far.........nada.

There has now been considerable data collected by these operators flying for QF to now have a lot of confidence in the VAAC data.

In 3 days of no flying ( its about by 3 days total I guess ), CX alone has operated around 42 times below the ash cloud and that's just CX.

The VAAC ash cloud modeling is accurate and if anything conservative.

What is QF's real agenda here? Industrial leverage perhaps?

At the end of the day it doesn't bother me, CX will make more profit while QF rots on the vine and screws it's staff some more.:mad:

[Scamp Damp]

Nitpicker330 - you have no idea do you....
Your post has no credibility.....

Questions now have to be asked WHY QF isn't flying. Many many international operators from highly respected safe Airlines are continuing to operate without Engine damage or risk to life and limb. CX, SQ, TG, NZ, EK, Royal Brunei, China Southern, Qatar, Air Mauritius, Garuda, Etihad, Air Asia etc etc. All these Airlines check their Aircraft for damage and so far.........nada.

How the hell did you include Garuda in the list of "highly respected safe airlines"

[nitpicker330]

Yes I do have some idea actually. 30 years at the front end in 3 large international airlines gives me some perspective on the industry.

Including Garuda? Well maybe that might have been a little far!!

But you've missed the point, over these days of disruption probably in excess of 200 flights have safely operated below the areas of Ash without problem. So much data has been collected to give QF DJ JQ much more confidence in the info to enable operations to continue.

What's your cred?

[mcgrath50]

The more damning thing than why is QF not flying when so many others are is, why is Jetstar resuming hours before QF?

[Capt EFIS]

Did I hear correct that CASA got involved in it yesterday and grounded RPT flights out of Adelaide?

Could it be that the hard word has been put on CASA to be a bit more pro-active this time around.

[27/09]

Interesting article here.

CEO Message: 21 June 2011 - (http://airnewzealand.posterous.com/ceo-message-21-june-2001)

[Wally Mk2]

Dick Smith on Tele 2nite said it was fine to fly thru the ash clouds. Do you need a clearance to fly thru ash?:) What part of our Alphabet airspace do these pesty clouds come under anyway?:E



Wmk2

[nitpicker330]

Well there you go, says it all really.

What is Qantas's real objective........mmmmm

I'm not referring to DS comments about flying in ash cloud.:ok:

[porch monkey]

If it came from Dick's mouth, it must be correct. I'm sure you will agree.:ok:

[Kenneth]

EFIS I dont think they grounded any RPT operators but with the CASA media release stating:

The Civil Aviation Safety Authority is working to ensure airlines are following the correct procedures when making decisions on flights while the volcanic ash clouds pass.

Two major RPT operators out of Adelaide may have interpreted it as : "If you fly and any of your aircraft sustain damage, we warned you and will have a field day with you."

It just seems funny that REX had no problems flying the week before but this week decided to pull the pin......Hindsight maybe.

On another note, i did hear a rumour one of the internationals that landed tuesday morning had signs of flight through ash.

[GAFA]

CH 7 also had the Capt of BA9 (the 747 that lost all 4 engines due to ash) also said the Australian airlines are being far to cautious. He said the ash cloud they experienced was far more dense (due to them being far closer to the volcano) then what has occured in Australia.

[Scamp Damp]

Everyone's an expert after the fact....

[Dangnammit]

I think it's a matter of 'better safe than sorry' and a lot of 'what if's' with this ash.
Played perfectly into tigers' hands though........

[Jeff Ucker]

Here's the article. QF you're in the wrong and always will be for as long as you have the current bunch of monkey's running the show :ugh:

Personally, I think it's too late and your business is all but over :D

When is the first A320 going to get painted Red and White???


I wanted to take the opportunity to thank all those in the Flight Operations teams who worked so hard last week to maintain safe operations across the Air New Zealand network despite the challenges presented by the ash cloud from Mt Puyehue Cordon Caulle in Chile which drifted across Australia, the Tasman Sea and New Zealand. With ash re-entering Australian airspace today, it looks like they once again have a busy time ahead.

Coordinated by our Chief Pilot David Morgan and Bob Fletcher in Operations Support, the Flight Ops teams and Fleet Managers across each of our fleet types and regional airlines have been working together with the New Zealand Civil Aviation Authority, Met Service and Air Traffic Control/Airways New Zealand to undertake a continuous risk assessment, determine the position of the ash cloud and adapt our flight paths and flight levels to ensure we could continue to operate in ash-free air throughout the week. Whenever we perceived a risk that our clear air requirements would be compromised we ceased services, but fortunately this happened on relatively few occasions.

While a number of other airlines in Australasia initially ceased services, as the week progressed all airlines, with the exception of Qantas and Jetstar, were operating on a similar basis as Air New Zealand.

Air New Zealand’s commitment to adapting its services and accepting the cost of a higher fuel burn to fly longer tracks at lower altitude was very well received by customers and increasingly the media began praising Air New Zealand’s approach as the week progressed.

Behind the scenes however we were constantly battling a series of malicious rumours that emerged from the Australian market and fed to media, suggesting that Air New Zealand had six aircraft in the hangar with ash damage, an aircraft grounded in Australia with ash damage and an aircraft requiring a nose cone replacement as a result of ash damage. All these stories were a complete fiction and I was left scratching my head as to where these false rumours were coming from.

Then at the end of the week, Qantas CEO Alan Joyce sent an email to the Qantas’ eight million frequent flyer customers, trying to justify the decision by Qantas to ground many of its aircraft while all other airlines were flying and implying that airlines like Air New Zealand and Virgin Australia were operating unsafely.

What Alan omitted to mention was that it wasn’t just Air New Zealand and Virgin Australia that had managed to adapt their operations to operate safely in clear air, but all airlines apart from Qantas and Jetstar had managed to achieve the vast majority of their operations. What Alan also failed to mention was that Qantas was very happy to transfer thousands of its customers onto Air New Zealand and other airlines’ services, which seems a strange thing to do for your customers if you have concerns about the safety of the airspace.

Given Mt Puyehue Cordon Caulle continues to erupt, we will continue to see ash clouds drift across the region, like we are today, possibly for weeks and/or months to come. Air New Zealand will continue to adopt a similar approach to that we achieved last week, maintaining operations where we are confident we can do so safely without any heightened risk to our aircraft, crew and passengers.

It is also likely that we will see Qantas and Jetstar come under further customer and media pressure if they continue to adopt this strategy of grounding aircraft and it is possible that we will continue to see misinformation and false rumours emerge in the market.

Rob Fyfe

[reallyoldfart]

Interesting to see Dick Smith pop up again on the news as an AVIATION EXPERT!! Seems he is now an authority on volcanic ash as well.

I still wonder who adorned him with the title of AVIATION EXPERT

[nitpicker330]

Today's Herald Sun page 9:

"A special "Eco Dimona" Aircraft flew into the ash cloud south of Australia, scientists on board confirmed the density of the ash was very low- a fraction of the 4mg per cubic metre that poses a threat to Jet engines. Confirming these safe levels earlier could have saved Airlines ( read QF JQ DJ ) tens of millions of dollars, associate Professor Jorg Hacker."

[Xcel]

He owns an aircraft therefore he is an expert...

Bit like the old Joe publics opinion of our job andd that we do nothing but press auto land... All experts...

He served as Chairman of the board of the Civil Aviation Authority from 1990 to 1992; and Chairman of the board of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority from 1997 to 1999

Perhaps this on the resume might look favorably compared to a random passenger. But when you make a comment (whatever the context) to a journo, that you can fly through ash without consequence, it doesn't look to favorably anymore. Hope for his sake it was a misquote...

[ozbiggles]

After the article in the Australian today I think we can all say goodbye to RIDDICKS credibility on this site.
If you are going to start a rumour like this, you had better be willing to take the responsibility for it when it turns to ash.....

[Iain320]

Bug-a-lugs is currently tracking down his left nut :ooh:

[GAFA]

Those from the QF group spreading rumours regarding ash damage to Virgin Australia aircraft, have a read of today's Australian. It was all rumour!

[Willoz269]

Simple really....DS' comments possibly mean the current situation fits the "Affordable Safety" model....and therefore it was perfectly fine to fly in the Ash cloud...he probably would never do it himself.....

The claims I saw on the paper attributed to him stating that there is no data to show adverse safety in ash cloud is baffling.

This episode is interesting...a happy ending, but I can bet you these pilots would have something to say to Mr Smith...

YouTube - ‪KLM four engine failure from volcanic ash cloud‬‏ (http://youtu.be/Pd3KJVB8AuE)

[bigbopper]

Hi, first time poster so go easy on me! I was just wanting to ask your opinion - I'm due to fly out of Auckland on Monday on Royal Brunei (B777). I'm very nervous about flying at the best of times and the ash cloud has made me even more nervous. I don't know much about Royal Brunei and their safty / maintence procedures- is it likely that they will be inspecting their planes for ash damage at Auckland prior to departure? Given that they have just announced they are not going to fly this route from Oct, I'm guessing that they are lossing money - would they be scrimping on maintence costs? Should I be worried or do the have a reasonable reputation in regards to saftey? I assume they are flying under / around the ash cloud as per Air NZ as their flights are still operating?

Also, after doing some research I have also discovered that besides engine damage, the ash can also clog up the pitot tubes resulting in inacurate air data. If this happens, is there a redundancy system on a 777 like a GPS or something that can provide the piliots with flight data (speed, altitude, angle of attack)?

Finally, would the RB Pilots have completed training for this sort of event? Would they be under pressure to fly even if there are saftey concerns?

Thanks in advance for your help :)

[Jack Ranga]

bigbopper, you'll be right mate :ok:

[lk978]

I would rather hear from Dick Smith than Geoffrey Thomas...

[Worrals in the wilds]

Bigbopper,
Royal Brunei are a good airline and you'll be well looked after. It's natural to be concerned about flying but they'll stay on the ground if there's even a slight risk involved. Take a good book, money for food and a spare change of jocks in your carry on luggage in case that happens and you'll be fine. They won't risk you, your fellow pax and a 777 if it looks dodgy. Other posters would be more qualified to comment, but AFAIK Brunei have always had a good maintenance program and well trained pilots (including Aussies, Kiwis and Poms). Australia and New Zealand have excellent safety standards, and a lot of the negative posts you see on here are because everyone working in the aviation industry wants to see that continue, not because there is a serious risk now.

For all the bitching you see on here, there are very few (if any) airlines flying into Australia or New Zealand that would take a serious punt on safety. It's not like Air Afrique are doing business here.

Have a good trip and stay relaxed :).

[bigbopper]

Thanks Jack & Worrals, thats put my mind at ease (well a bit...). Just looking at the latest VAAC maps and it looks like another big cloud is comming our way but at a much lower altitude (FL050/FL200 - 5000 to 20000 ft I think) so no way anyone will be flying in that I would guess. The fact that the NZ Met service is forcasting the cloud does not exactly fill me with confidence as they could not forcast a piss up in a brewery!!

[SRM]

4mg per cubic metre, probably less dense than the sand storms I flew through in Kuwait.

[Tarq57]

@bigbopper, actually when it comes to ash cloud forecasts they're pretty good. It's an international collaboration, with a type of 3d infra-red (from satellites) layering and computer modelling. A safety buffer is built in. A lot has been learned about this, fast, over the past decade or so.

Looks to me that the cloud on the Darwin VAAC site is likely to be far enough South that it's unlikely to affect your flight, anyway. You may notice (depending on where you are, and where the upper ash cloud is) that the flight levels off initially a bit lower than normal for a while, before continuing climb.

The NZ Met service gets it pretty right, most of the time, in regard to weather generally, in my experience. A few noticeable "misses", but the important stuff is usually good.

[bigbopper]

Thanks @Tarq57 - looks like all carriers are flying from tomorrow, even Qantas so I'm feeling much better about it all although I have foolishly looked at the forecast in Brunei and London and both are for thunder and lightning storms so I'm worried about that now - too much information is not good sometimes!

[Tarq57]

Don't worry maestro, the flight crew are always the first to arrive at a thunderstorm and they really don't like flying through them, either!

[bigbopper]

Just wanted to report that the flight went ahead without incident, in fact it was perfect, no turbulence the whole way from Auckland to London - the seatbelt sign did not come on once. No sign of any ash cloud although I did see a lightning bolt a short distance from the plane as we flew out of Brunei...

I really got the impression that the pilots were trying to avoid turbulence which made for a very pleasent flight. It is a shame Royal Brunei have stopped this service from october as I would def fly with them again - the 777 was a very soomth ride...

[Worrals in the wilds]

Glad you enjoyed a drama free trip. BrownEye are a good airline, it's a pity they couldn't make the numbers work. Nice guys sometimes finish last...

If you're a pax who enjoys reading and learning more about flying there is a great section on PPRuNe for passengers, aka SLF (self loading freight :E).
Passengers & SLF (Self Loading Freight) - PPRuNe Forums (http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf-self-loading-freight-61/)

[Tarq57]

Good of you to report back, and pleased it all went well.