CAA Act on Cabin Baggage

[Capot]

As a heads-up to anyone who might be wondering why their (UK) airline is getting difficult about cabin bags, here is an extract from CAA Safety Notice SN-2011/05, (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=4581) which addresses all the safety problems associated with hand baggage. It identifies the problems, then tells airlines what they have to do about them.

Whilst many of the issues were directly related to commercial aspects of the operation, it was still apparent that safety was being compromised due to commercial pressure. There was a lack of standardisation even within the same operator dependent on varying factors. The main safety issues identified were as follows:
 Non-compliance with procedures in an operator’s Operations Manual with regard to size and weight of hand baggage;

 Exits being blocked by hand baggage during boarding and, usually, refuelling;

 Confrontation between cabin crew and ground staff over ownership of delays, possibly leading to non-compliance with safety procedures;

 Confrontation between cabin crew and flight crew members, possibly leading to less effective crew resource management;

 Confrontation between cabin crew and passengers, possibly leading to disruptive behaviour;

 Hand baggage being relocated to the hold (internal or external) without being subject to questioning about content, particularly with regard to spare lithium batteries;

 Numerous items of hand baggage being relocated to the external hold without flight crew knowledge and associated mass and balance onsiderations;

 Hand baggage being relocated to the internal hold without flight crew knowledge or the supervision of an aircraft loader, and associated mass and balance considerations;

 Hand baggage being stowed in non-approved stowages including toilets;

 Aircraft taxiing whilst cabin crew were still trying to stow hand baggage;
 Passengers standing during taxiing due to inability to stow hand baggage; and

 Unrestrained hand baggage being carried on the flight deck.

3 Compliance/Action to be taken

3.1 Operators should review their procedures to ensure that they comply with the requirements of OPS 1.270, Appendix 1 to OPS 1.270, Appendix 1 to OPS 1.305, IEM OPS 1.305, OPS 1.325 and Appendix 1 to OPS 1.625.
 Procedures must be in place to ensure that only such hand baggage is taken into the aircraft that can be adequately and securely stowed;

 Procedures must be in place for flight and cabin crew to verify that if hand baggage is relocated to the hold, it does not contain dangerous goods that are only permitted in carryon baggage such as spare lithium batteries;

 Procedures must be in place to ensure that if any last minute change occurs after the completion of the mass and balance documentation, this must be brought to the attention of the commander and the documentation amended if appropriate;

 Items of hand baggage must not be stowed in toilets or other non-approved stowages;

 Exits must be available for use should an emergency arise during refuelling/defuelling and must not be obstructed;

 Passengers must be secured in their seats with their seat belts fastened prior to taxiing;

 All escape paths and exits must be unobstructed prior to taxiing; and

 Items of hand baggage must not be carried, unrestrained, on the flight deck.

Hmmm, some items there that may be trickier than the writer realises, methinks....but, in general, action on allowing stupid hand baggage on board is long overdue, even when this is encouraged by the operator by penalising hold baggage.

[ross_M]

What was the part about stowing hand baggage in toilets? Who does that!

[ExXB]

I've seen that a number of times on both short and long haul.

Usually passengers at the bulkhead have stuff, but no room up above (and no seat in front). So they put it in the lavatory. Been a couple of years since I've flown BA, but recall they did that on a LAX-LHR flight.

[GrahamO]

Interesting - this explains why on a flight earlier this week, BA boarding gate staff refused the luggage of a subsequently rather loud US citizen who did the upset bit. The bag would fit in the box thing - if you pulled the protruding wheels off, which she would not do o :)

[PAXboy]

... it was still apparent that safety was being compromised due to commercial pressure.No? Really? I am shocked.

Well this gets a BIG thumbs up from me. I can only hope that the airlines DO as they are requested. The best time to break these bad pax and carrier CEO habits is in the boom times, when you can afford to lose some good will. Doing it now is the wrong time by several years but that's givt for you.

[WHBM]

Hand baggage being relocated to the hold (internal or external) without being subject to questioning about content, particularly with regard to spare lithium batteries
I'm well aware of the developing lithium batteries issue, but I have never been asked with mainstream hold baggage if it contained them either - and for many pax, they probably wouldn't have a clue what a "lithium" battery actually was. Nor does the UK government's information on prohibited baggage make any mention of these, only (specifically) lead-acid batteries and vehicle batteries. Does one arm of the government know what the other is doing ?

Dangerous and restricted items: what you cannot take on board an aircraft : Directgov - Travel and transport (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Foreigntravel/AirTravel/DG_176922)

[TightSlot]

If I understand correctly, the issue is that an item that is permitted in Cabin Baggage can be moved at the last minute to become Hold Baggage.

One of our crew procedures (in the manual and tested every year at safety exam time) is fire-fighting a lithium battery fire - usually in the form of a laptop fire - One of the better known videos is shown below. THe problem with fighting a burning battery is that a standard (BCF) extinguisher may not be up to the job: It may temporarily extinguish the fire, but since it has no cooling properties, it may not prevent re-ignition, or even heat transfer to adjacent battery cells. Another problem is that the fires tend to be explosive.

As long as these items are in the cabin, we can deal with them - as soon as they move to the hold, humans cannot do so until after landing: The aircraft hold fire extinguishers are the primary defence.

The issue of Dangerous Goods in checked (Hold) baggage is a disturbing one. Quite part from those people who are quite genuinely stupid (and decide to pack insane items in their suitcase, or who in knowledge of the regulations simply decide that the rules don't apply to them) there are those items that a reasonable person might conclude are safe to pack, when the truth is otherwise!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlZggVrF9VI

[radeng]

Does the restriction on lead acid batteries apply to sealed 'gel cell' types? The chance of electrolyte leak is no more than from NiCads - and would actually be less deleterious to aluminium alloys.

[PAXboy]

Very interesting clip, thanks TS. If the battery can re-ignite, due to no colling property of BCF, then discharging all of the extinguisher content in one go will be the wrong thing to do. This problem - as with all of the points in the OP are long overdue to be fixed. But it's going to take years of crack down and countless violations will continue because some CEOs will favour the money and trust that the insurance claim does not happen on their watch.

[lowcostdolly]

Paxboy This clip was ground based at LAX terminal. Unless US regulations are different BCF cannot be discharged on the ground at all due to it's toxic properties. In the UK it is banned on the ground.

In the air we are instructed to use the minimum amount of BCF necessary to extinguish a fire.......if it needs the whole lot then it needs the whole lot and more. One extinguisher lasts X amount of seconds depending on which company's fire SOP's we are tested on.

BCF smothers a fire.......it does not remove heat or fuel. In the case of lithium batteries (and other fires) the CC are discharged with this duty. In the case of lithium batteries we are instructed to immerse the battery/equitment into a bar box or similar full of water.......

In the hold there are no convienient bar boxes full of water or CC....... I don't think the extinguishers are BCF either but will stand corrected on that.

As somebody who has countless times offloaded what can only be described as oversized cabin baggage and at times furniture ( bathroom cabinet springs to mind) might I suggest that CC training might be a way to get the ball rolling here.

I have only ever been told in training to check said pax do not have medication or travel documents in the bag I'm turfing off and that I tag it correctly. Guess the rather monotonous dangerous goods syllabus and open book test on IC and recurrent will soon be updated in the light of this notice.......:ok:

It won't take years to crack down on providing the front line staff (ground and CC) now have the appropriate training and backing of the CAA.

It's a foolish CEO that will flout the CAA IMHO.

[WHBM]

But it's going to take years of crack down and countless violations will continue because some CEOs will favour the money and trust that the insurance claim does not happen on their watch.I think this does the Chief Exec's at the bulk of mainstream operators a significant disservice. Those who have attained these positions nowadays understand fully they have to take on board what their Engineering Directors and Chief Pilots say, and not least CAA directives, and bring together the views from all sides.

[ross_M]

I'm curious as to why BCF is preferred over all other choices for aviation cabin crew fire extinguishers? Is it any particular fire fighting property or subsequent aircraft damage?

Also, the wikipedia article on BCF says:

This is a volatile extinguishing agent that should be used only with a breathing apparatus.


How does CC deal with that especially with the confined space?

[WHBM]

As somebody who has countless times offloaded what can only be described as oversized cabin baggage and at times furniture ( bathroom cabinet springs to mind)
I am sure many of us will have seen items such as luggage being sold in airside shops, with no route for it to go whatsoever but into the cabin. Some countries are worse than others for this, but there seems to be no real control over the size of what they sell.

[lowcostdolly]

RossM.......we only use it with breathing apparatus :ok: If the flight crew have to discharge it in the fliught deck they will use their own PBE

Should we have to use it in the actual cabin pax are moved away as per our fire fighting SOP's and given precautionary advice re covering faces with headrests etc. The flight crew will also execute the cabin ventilation procedures on descent if required

The aircraft is by definition a "confined space" so yes you raise a valid point. If however there is a toilet fire the pax will be removed if he hasn't already legged it before we discharge the BCF in the loo!!

If we have to fight a overhead locker fire once the BCF is discharged the locker is closed.....pax are moved away.

In a galley oven fire the BCF is the last resort. Most fires will be dealt with by pulling the relevant circuit breaker and keeping the oven door closed.

Hope this clarify's.

[TightSlot]

ross_M - BCF is used because it is extraordinarily effective: It works, and works fast. If you need to cool after smothering, you can follow up with water, assuming no elex are involved.

I'm interested in the discussion about toxicity. Both the fire and its' by-products (smoke, fumes, heat) are infinitely more 'toxic' and dangerous than the amount of BCF that you can spray around the cabin, even using all the available extinguishers - All of them will kill you much quicker than BCF fumes. The biggest danger is to the operator of the extinguisher in a confined space (toilet) which is why a smokehood is a good idea if the initial spray doesn't work and you're in for a prolonged session.

[Airclues]

As TightSlot says, a lithium battery fire can be dealt with in the cabin, but not in the hold. The groundstaff must verify what is in the baggage before removing it from the passenger.

There is some useful information about lithium battery fires in the following document. Also some graphs at the end showing the temperatures during an overheat incident.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAPAP2003_04.PDF

[WHBM]

As TightSlot says, a lithium battery fire can be dealt with in the cabin, but not in the hold. The groundstaff must verify what is in the baggage before removing it from the passenger.
Why, therefore, is hold baggage submitted in the normal manner at the check-in desk not verified in this manner, apart from the anodyne "did you pack this yourself has it always been with you".

[Airclues]

WHBM

When you book your ticket you tick a box to say that you have read the terms and conditions. I'm sure that you have thoroughly studied this table on ba.com;

http://www.britishairways.com/cms/global/pdfs/Forbidden_Items_List.pdf

Dave

[ChicoG]

God bless 'em, they'd have a cow if they saw what some people in Asia and the Middle East actually get away with taking into the cabin.

I remember once queuing up for a Middle East carrier, watching people taking case after case and oversized box after oversized box on board unchallenged.

When I got to board, the rather ineffectual lady at the gate then decided (or had more likely been told) there was too much hand luggage on board, and tried to tell me that my military canvas bag of nothing but clothes, weighing about 3kg, was too big to go on board. When I demonstrated how tightly it actually compressed, she was still adamant that it wasn't going on board, because there were "too many passengers".

When I explained just how badly she had done her job, and read out the airline's ground service manager's name and number from my phone, she sped off into the distance and one of her colleagues took over. :E

For every unthinking passenger that does this, there's an unthinking airline/airport employee letting it happen, so they both need to be addressed.

And I use the word unthinking in place of more derogatory comments.

And I do pity the CC who are usually the ones left trying to get a square peg into a round hole (which is probably where the bags in toilets thing comes from).

:E

[radeng]

I see BA mention radioisotopic powered pacemakers. None have been made for over 20 years.......

Fortunately, the pacemaker and implanted defibrillator batteries have a high resistance, so the chance of a fire if short circuited are very close to zero. Just as well, from the user's viewpoint!

[TightSlot]

Why, therefore, is hold baggage submitted in the normal manner at the check-in desk not verified in this manner, apart from the anodyne "did you pack this yourself has it always been with you"
Firstly, The number of customers that choose to pack Lithium Batteries in their checked baggage is very, very small - let's face it, not that many people carry spare batteries - most batteries are attached to the device that they operate and people are reluctant to check such items in (not least because they wish to use them in-flight). In terms of volume, the threat is low - until you move cabin baggage to the hold that is.
Secondly, there are a lot of items that you are not specifically questioned about at check-in: The list of such items is theoretically endless.
And thirdly, checked baggage (in the UK at least) is subjected to considerably more checking than the verbal questions at check-in - the primary function of which is an attempt to stimulate the remaining memory brain cells of the genuinely stupid.

[ross_M]

I'm wondering as to how all the laptops made in China and Taiwan make the initial trip to the US. Situation on board a FedEx freighter must be equally bad coz' the Flight Crew cannot access the holds in flight.

Or maybe mint condition batteries are assumed to be less risk?

[ross_M]

Thanks TightSlot!

ross_M - BCF is used because it is extraordinarily effective: It works, and works fast. If you need to cool after smothering, you can follow up with water, assuming no elex are involved.


A wacky thought; is "a descent, door cracked open and out it goes" a thought that crosses ever your minds?

Another question that crossed my mind is, let's say you had fire and smoke, the natural PAX tendency might be to move away from it. Could PAX get so clustered as to upset the CG; are these things the CC watch for; I was curious.

Also, being inspired by ships: is it an option to have smoke and fire resistant bulkheads that could be used to isolate a fire to a section? Maybe at least for galleys, lavs and such areas?

[WHBM]

I'm wondering as to how all the laptops made in China and Taiwan make the initial trip to the US. Situation on board a FedEx freighter must be equally bad coz' the Flight Crew cannot access the holds in flight.

Or maybe mint condition batteries are assumed to be less risk?
This is exactly the situation on which suspicion has fallen in the recent loss of the UPS 747 freighter at Dubai, returning after an in-flight fire in the main deck cargo, which contained a large shipment of lithium batteries.

[TightSlot]

is "a descent, door cracked open and out it goes" a thought that crosses ever your minds?
You can solve the problem by cooling the batteries, and containing the fire. Quick & Dirty solution is to turn off seat power elex, and immerse the battery in water - move an empty catering canister near the burning battery, fill with water (not ice) and move the battery into it with a fire blanket and fire gloves (and a short prayer - this process is not much fun due to the explosive nature of these fires). Move the canister to the galley and then add ice. Another good place for the battery (when cooler) is in an empty oven.

Once the fire is out, the authorities are going to want to examine the evidence, so disposing of it is frowned upon - not least by those living under the flightpath. Finally, depressurising and opening doors is tricky stuff on a large jet. The only aircraft I've known where a procedure for this existed is 747 for smoke clearance: Having read and learned the procedure, it's not something I'm ever in a hurry to do.

C/G and trim - I don't know the answer - we don't watch for it as we're expected to be fighting the fire.

Bulkheads - I assume that they are fireproofed to a degree but they are not hermetically sealed: Smoke, Gas and Fumes will travel throughout the aircraft and usually will kill you long before the heat. One of the things that we need to be careful about in a cabin fire is the use of passenger oxygen systems. The Flight deck on large jet transports does (usually) have an independent oxygen supply.

[onboard]

I fail to see how anything in this safety notice, apart from the battery part, is news.
The battery part also can only be called "relatively" new.
In my 20 years as CC this problem has always been present, as it will be until time's end.
All you can hope for is a company that actually backs CC and FC when offloading, asking for PAX to stick to published limits is obviously not realistic.
Mind you, there are of course many Passengers who DO come abord with baggage within limits. Still, there are enough who don't.