Hong Kong Airlines order A380s

[Zeke]

Hong Kong Airlines Ltd. will order Airbus SAS A380s as it challenges larger neighbor Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd. (293) and adds flights in China, the world’s fastest- growing air-travel market.

from Hong Kong Airlines to Order A380 Jumbos - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-13/hong-kong-airlines-to-order-airbus-a380s-at-paris-show-in-cathay-challenge.html)

Your move Cathay, HKG passengers will have a choice to fly on a clapped out 744 or brand new A380s.

[spannersatcx]

or brand new 330/777/350's!

[Arfur Dent]

To a well financed Airline with even a slight respect for the travelling public, CX must seem like a desirable opponent. If this happens I wonder how many more 'Best Business Class in Asia/The World/The Universe' we will win??
How did we win any in the first place?

[chards]

I agree with Sweep the leg, who gives a toss if HKA have A380s or space shuttles- the thing is yet to prove it's worth and is a mega backpacker carrier at best. Give me small planes and upgrades anyday!:ok:

[FR8R H8R]

You would not be saying that if they suddenly announced an order for CRJs.

[captncannot]

Go rockstar it up in an EK F Class Private Suite, then try and convince yourself it isn't a gamechanging aircraft ... :ok:

[AAIGUY]

Exactly.

I've done EK F suite and their J seat.. hung out @ the bar in with sofa on the upper deck.. It's the only way to travel.

and they charge less for it than CX tries to for their regional A330/B777 J seat..
No question.

[Steve the Pirate]

Your move Cathay, HKG passengers will have a choice to fly on a clapped out 744 or brand new A380s.I don't mean to appear flippant or dismissive of HKA but where are they going to fly these passengers to on their 380s? It's one thing to acquire aircraft but you need the routes to operate them on too. I wonder where HKA are planning to deploy these aircraft - any rumours on their route expansion plans?

[Fly747]

Next year BA will have their new 380s on the HKG route, that route to LHR is enough alone for CX to need the 380 and quick.
In 2013 HKA will be bigger than KA. Who cares where they fly them STP it is surely time to take them seriously.
I also hear that CX are losing local pilots to them too, they are competition in many ways!

[Steve the Pirate]

Who cares where they fly them STP it is surely time to take them seriously.That's why I said I didn't want to appear dismissive of HKA but my question is still relevant. There's no point getting shiny new aircraft if they've got limited routes to justify their purchase. I don't think for one minute that this hasn't been considered by HKA management but we can only speculate whether or not they will compete with CX on the same routes - unless anyone has any rumours as to their route expansion plans.......

As far as local pilots leaving CX in favour of HKA is concerned, that would only become an issue if significant numbers were involved. What that number might be, who knows? That said, your point about HKA being competition in more ways than one is valid.

[MD330]

As far as local pilots leaving CX in favour of HKA is concerned, that would only become an issue if significant numbers were involved. What that number might be, who knows? That said, your point about HKA being competition in more ways than one is valid.


So all that been said and accepted, it seems all the criticism and the thread "Demise of HKA" should now be withdrawn. ;)

Too bad its open skies and more opportunities for employment in all fields and choices for passengers too! :ok: No one need to play God either. :D

Good luck and happy landings!

[goingdown]

HK Airlines to order A380s at Paris Air Show (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/06/14/357933/hk-airlines-to-order-a380s-at-paris-air-show.html)

LON and NYC.

[badairsucker]

NYC...can a 380 fly direct to NYC with decent payload and fuel? I don't think so.
LON...how are they going to get landing slots???

[humour]

LON may not mean LHR.:)

[Zeke]

NYC...can a 380 fly direct to NYC with decent payload and fuel? I don't think so.

QF operate their A380s LAX-MEL daily, that route with the winds has a longer air nautical miles than JKF-HKG. QF have the A model A380s, anything built after 2012 is lighter, and the wing has already been updated to reduce drag further.

In London, I think they would be going to LGW like Oasis did.

[badairsucker]

In London, I think they would be going to LGW like Oasis did.

LON may not mean LHR.

Yes, I know. But LHR attracts all the front end traffic, that's where the money is.

If it's LGW then I can't see it working as there is a poor connection from LGW to the rest of the UK etc and too much competition from CX, BA, QF, Virgin and ANZ from LHR to HKG. Ever thought why there are NO services from LGW to HKG.

Only time will tell.

[ETOPS240]

[quote]QF operate their A380s LAX-MEL daily, that route with the winds has a longer air nautical miles than JKF-HKG[/b]

QF's international model isn't exactly one which Cathay are trying to follow, for obvious reasons..

A380 JFK-HGK would be a huge u-turn in profit.

[geh065]

Given the dump that is LHR, I would gladly fly to LGW instead!

[Zeke]

There's no point getting shiny new aircraft if they've got limited routes to justify their purchase.

That is exactly what people said in the early 1970s when a "new" start-up international airline on a sleepy little island in south east asia placed the largest order in history for 747s. Do you think in hindsight that Singapore Airlines were not justified with their purchase ?

Do you think for a minute that HX may just have a business plan that you do not know about ?

A380 JFK-HGK would be a huge u-turn in profit.

For CX. We all know that business people like to arrive at the start of the work day, or leave at the end of the work day. Arriving or departing at any other time is not as popular.

[kay lo dee]

HX is owned by HNA group. They have significant financial backing, and a very lucrative domestic market in the 2nd largest economy in the world. As the only non-state aligned carrier and constrained by the central planning of the mainland government, expansion internationally is somewhat muted. This explains why HX was purchased in the firstplace; as it provides a relatively limitless expansion plan unfettered by central planning and with the HKG limit on AOCs allowed at any one time and the further limit of only 2 HKG carriers on any one route allows access to any market they choose ex HKG

The political will is on the side of HX and why not, after all they Have "Hong Kong" written on the side of their aircraft and display no hangover of the Colonial era.

CX is In for a battle. But spare a thought for KA because this outfit is now dead in the water and nobody seems to want to acknowledge it. There senior management have admitted to having no idea about the company's future (as CX refuses to make a commitment to them.

[bila]

The political will is on the side of HX and why not, after all they Have "Hong Kong" written on the side of their aircraft and display no hangover of the Colonial era.


kay lo dee

Absolutely well said! :ok: Singapore Airlines is a good example too. Any buisness venture is a gamble.
Its a open market and skies. Employees and customers have choices / options. :cool:

[ETOPS240]

For CX. We all know that business people like to arrive at the start of the work day, or leave at the end of the work day. Arriving or departing at any other time is not as popular.

True enough, but they also like frequency. And cargo. Frequency is the name of the game with CX, therefore 3 77Ws is a superior model to 2 x A388s for the same no. of pax.

A389, however??

[Steve the Pirate]

@Zeke

That's why I wrote:

I don't think for one minute that this hasn't been considered by HKA management but we can only speculate whether or not they will compete with CX on the same routes

If you'd read the next sentence rather than selectively quoting the above, then you'd have saved yourself some time. You'll also notice that later in the post I agree with Fly747.

[bunglesboy]

The only reason the article mentions HKA and the purchase of A380's is that Hainan need to purchase the aircraft through Airlines to avoid paying large tax's in mainland China. It's all a tax dodge. Don't think for one minute that Airlines will operate a single A380.

[Meccano]

Another hostage to fortune.........

[Algol]

Yes. Make a note.

[Virtual Reality]

It is confirmed now that HKA is getting 14 x B748 instead of A380 .....

Update as of end of Day 3, 8:00pm Hong Kong Time


Airbus:

A318
Nil

A319
Republic Airlines(Frontier)- 40 A319NEO (LOI only)

A320
Air Lease Corporation - 20 A320NEO and 14 NEO options
AviancaTACA- 18 A320, 22 A320NEO
CIT Leasing - 50 A320NEO
Garuda - 15 A320, 10A320NEO
GECAS - 60 A320NEO
JetBlue - 40 A320NEO
Republic Airlines(Frontier)- 40 A320NEO (LOI only)
SAS - 30 A320NEO

A321
Air Lease Corporation- 1 and 16 A321NEO
JetBlue- Conversion of 30 existing A320 orders to A321
TransAsia - 6 A321NEO

A330
Air Lease Corporation- 11
Saudi Arabian - 4 (300)

A340
nil

A350
ALAFCO- 6 (900)

A380
nil

Boeing

737
Air Lease Corp- 20 (800)
MIAT Mongolian Airlines- 2 (800)
Norwegian Air Shuttle- 12 (800) + 3 (Icelandair booked earlier)
Malaysia Airlines- 10 (800) (previously unidentified)
UTAir- 7 (700) and 33 (800)

747

Hong Kong Airlines- 14 (747-8i)
Qatar Airways- 1 (747-8i BBJ)
Unidentified- 2 (747-8i)
GECAS- 2 (747-8F) (LOI only)

767
MIAT Mongolian Airlines- 1 (300ER)
LAN- 6 (300ER)

777
Air Lease Corp- 5 (300ER)
GECAS- 6 (300ER)(LOI only)
Aeroflot- 8 (300ER) (previously unidentified)
Qatar Airways- 6 (300ER) (previously unidentified)

787
Air Lease Corp- 4 (787-9)

Bombardier
CSeries
Korean Air- 30 (CS300, LOI only)
Unidentified- 16 (CS 100)
VistaJet- 10 (Global 8000)
AVWest- 4 (Global 7000)
AVWest- 2 (Global 8000)

Embraer
EMB 190 series
Sriwijaya Air- 20 and 10 options
Kenya Air- 10 and 10 options
Air Lease- 2
GECAS- 2
Air Astana- 2 and 2 options.

ATR
Azul Trip Linhas- 10 (600)
GECAS- 15 and 15 options (600)
Skywest Aviation (Australia)- 4 (500)

China COMAC
Ryanair- Signed as partner in development of C919 aircraft

Sukhoi
PT Sky Aviation (Indonesia)- 10 (SSJ-100s)
Blue Panorama- 12 (SSJ-100s)


Conclusion:

By end of Day of 3, Airbus continues to reap in more order for A320NEO family. Republic Airlines ordered 80 A319NEOs and A320NEOs at 40 each. Republic Airlines will be launch customer for A319NEO. AviancaTACA orders 18 non-NEO A320 and 33 A320NEOs.

ALAFCO orders 6 A350, destined for Thai Airways. More order will be revealed especially AirAsia 'mega' order as well as some from Qatar Airways.

As for Boeing, new widebody keeps flowing in. Hong Kong Airlines was the airline behind the 14 B747-8i orders yesterday. B767 passenger line scored another lifeline with 6 order from LAN. GECAS signed Letter of Intention for 6 B777-300ER and 2 B747-8F. UTAir orders 40 B737s.

For other players, it has been relatively quiet. Each smaller players notched up some orders.





VR :cool:

[Zeke]

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/uf/93648/phpamOJLv.png

No announcement has been made by Boeing indicating it is HX for the 747-8I, I have been told that these unidentified 747 commitments will only be firmed up next week.

Boeing updates their active orders page every Thursday, it will be interesting to see what that says on Friday HKG time.

The Boeing Company (http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm)

HX was very close to signing both A380 and 747-8 deals at the Asian Aerospace in Hong Kong a few months back, Boeing even put the below graphic on the website, and Airbus executives were seen leaving the show with an A380 model painted up in HX livery.

http://www.airliners.net/uf/93648/middle/phpiziWD1.png

[SMOC]

It is confirmed now that HKA is getting 14 x B748 instead of A380 .....

Looks like they just picked up their A380s as planned.

PARIS: Airbus confirms undisclosed tentative A380 deal (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/06/23/358732/paris-airbus-confirms-undisclosed-tentative-a380-deal.html)


So 15 x 747-8I plus 10 x A380s.

Looks like if you're on local terms HKA may be the place to go for a quick Command.

[Fly747]

.....or a base if not on local terms?

[Sqwak7700]

Or if you want to go to a carrier that is actually growing... :rolleyes:

[geh065]

Or if you want to go to a carrier that is actually growing...

Growing for how long until it all comes crashing down Oasis-style?

[freightdog188]

the subtle difference is money...
Oasis was privately funded, HKA has the HNA group behind it. Mainland tax dollars....

[airdualbleedfault]

Never mind the 380, have they managed to get their 330 loads over 50% yet ?

[711]

What CX management obviously simply do not understand , customer want the A380, period. All my friends, including those who know absolutely nothing about aviation, want to know if "my" airline will buy them.
How can JS say that the Cathay brand is one of his main objectives and then allow another HK airline to get all the limelight for ordering it first? Why not get only a handfull, deploy them to some prestigious destinations like London, get a luxurious cabin and fill it up with journalists? IFor Christs sake, lease them for a few years and then get rid of them if they are really that bad, nobody will care about it afterwards. It's simply about getting the first mover bonus and run..f you look at how Emirates and others managed to become household names within only a few years you really wonder how exactly Cathay wants to compete on a marketing level. The odd quarter page in the FT won't do it I am afraid..

[The SSK]

I hear reports that the Chinese Government have blocked the Airbus order, in retaliation for EU Emissions Trading Scheme plans

[geh065]

the subtle difference is money...
Oasis was privately funded, HKA has the HNA group behind it. Mainland tax dollars....

I keep hearing this, and whilst true, it can only last so long. It takes a lot of money to run a fleet of nearly 100 planes including A380s and 747-8s and if you cannot make a profit, the losses are potentially huge. China may have a lot of money but Chinese businessmen are not morons. They will want a eturn on their investment, and if HKA ends up being a black hole of money, the rich backers will pull the plug. Forget millionaires, you would need a multi multi billionaire willing to throw all their money away in order to keep this venture going.

[sodapop]

Dude,

The Chinese government is a group of "multi multi billionaire(S) willing to throw all their money away". And for them, as good communists, profit is a secondary motivation.

Plus they have George Soros and his billions:

On November 30, 2007, a new company called Grand China Airlines Holding Company (GCAHC) was formed under the initiative of the HNA group's largest operational entity, Hainan Airlines. The airline planned to merge its operations with all HNA Group's aviaition subsidiaries. The new holding company was held jointly by Hainan province government (48.6%), HNA group (32.8%) and George Soros (18.6%). As a result, a new airline called Grand China Air (Chinese: 大新華航空) was founded. According to the plan, the former four airlines under HNA group, Hainan Airlines, Shanxi Airlines, Chang'an Airlines, and China Xinhua Airlines should be transferred into Grand China Air in the near future.

[cxorcist]

711,

There is a big difference between what "all your friends" and journalists seeking big stories want versus what is best for the airline. CX is all about making money, not just creating publicity. Your lease idea sounds like a very expensive scheme to create a short-term buzz for CX while a sustained advertising campaign would probably be cheaper and more effective. CX is all about return on investment. When they buy or lease aircraft the objective is maximum profit given a whole range of potential market conditions. I'm not sure the A380 does that better than the -8I or even the big twins.

How many people would ever buy an F class suite on a CX A380? I don't know the answer, but I would bet it is less than .01% of CX passengers. So why do we care so much about this service offering? Maybe we should be providing worldwide corporate jet service for all those ultra rich folks as well...

I think your A380 proposition has more to do with what you need/want than what is best for CX, and I don't want to even imagine what shortcomings you might be compensating for:ooh:

CXorcist

[geh065]

cxorsist,

Actually airlines currently operating the 380 have reported that their flights operated by that aircraft have an unusually high demand over other types operating the same route. I have no doubt that CX could easily fill a first class suite on the 380 on certain routes. Whether that is enough to offset the huge financial costs of buying the thing in the first place I dont know.

[cxorcist]

Geh065,

I never wrote that CX could not fill the seats (suites in this case) but rather that it may not create the greatest return on capital investment. Furthermore, the branding image created by the media buzz would only truly benefit a very small percentage of CX passengers. I do not think F class is CX's bread and butter. J class and cargo are. That is why frequency and belly cargo are top priorities which big twins deliver far better than an A380.

With respect to higher demand on A380 flights, I'm quite certain that at least a portion is due to the fact that operators fly them on their highest demand flight times and days. That would seem to make sense, right?

I have no doubt CX could make money with the A380 on routes like HKG-LHR. The question is whether they would make more with -8I, or even big twins operating to additional airports like Gatwick and Manchester. For the time being, it appears that operating clapped out -400s is turning a good profit despite the high fuel prices.

CXorcist

[Max Reheat]

Crikey cxorcist..... I find myself agreeing with everything you write about this subject, though I detect a closet Boeing guru hiding in there.

[marcopolosnr]

Airbus A380 order forced under wraps over China-EU emissions spat - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/8597785/Airbus-A380-order-forced-under-wraps-over-China-EU-emissions-spat.html)
china: Remove the carbon tax or we cancel the order

[cxorcist]

Max,

I admit to preferring Boeing, but only because their airplanes last longer and fly more reliably. I appreciate the cockpit technology and quiet cabins Airbus employs. The 330 seems to be clearly superior to the 767, and the 320neo may well be the airplane that forces Boeing to design a new single aisle. I have every confidence that the 350 will be a good airplane by 2020 (much later than the 787). Yet I find the fact that Airbus has yet to build a great 4 engine aircraft puzzling. The 340 was essentially crushed by the 777, and the 380 may never break even for Airbus if the -8I steals enough marketshare. Similarly, Airbus has essentially surrendered the entire large cargo market.

So while Paris may appear to make Airbus look dominant. The reality is that Boeing is a far more profitable company. I would argue that much of Boeing's financial health stems from the fact that it builds a superior aircraft from an airline operator's perspective. Airbus continues to rely on government subsidies to sell their aircraft at steeply discounted prices.

CXorcist

[iMad]

China blurs A380 order, backs 747 amid EU row
28 Jun 2011

China downgraded the announcement of an Airbus superjumbo order and signed up for the Boeing 747-8 as deals worth US$9 billion, coinciding with a row over European emissions trading rules, industry sources said.

The deals both involved parts of the HNA airlines group and had been planned before the Paris Air Show, they said, but the decision not to announce the names of the buyers triggered one of the mysteries of this week's event.

Industry sources said plans to announce a high-profile US$3.8 billion deal between Airbus and Hong Kong Airlines for 10 A380 superjumbos were called off on Thursday because of China's anger over European plans to charge airlines for emissions.

China threatened last month to hold back on purchasing Airbus aircraft because of the EU emissions trading scheme, which airlines body IATA has called illegal.

Additionally, industry sources said a company affiliated to the same carrier, Hainan Airlines, was behind the unexpected announcement of an anonymous deal at Boeing this week.

Boeing said an unidentified airline had provisionally committed to 15 747-8 passenger jets worth US$4.8 billion.

Airlines often choose to buy airliners without identifying themselves to their competition, but such announcements are rarely made at air shows which are designed for publicity. Boeing also rarely announces deals before they are confirmed.

Airbus and Boeing declined to comment and representatives of the HNA Group were not available.

Hong Kong Airlines is 46% owned by HNA Group, the parent of Hainan Airlines.

TEMPTING TARGET

Airbus and Boeing both brought their largest passenger jets to the show, a biennial event which rotates with the Farnborough Air Show in Britain.

The 747-8 with 467 seats is Boeing's first stretched version of the 747 and is in the midst of flight testing. It will enter service initially as a freighter, then in a passenger version.

The 525-seat A380 is the world's largest airliner and Europe's most high-profile aircraft since Concorde, making it a tempting target in any political tensions affecting aerospace.

The Airbus deal has not itself been blocked and is in the manufacturer's order book, but the decision to cancel a signing ceremony is a clear protest signal, the industry sources said.

Aircraft purchases also need Chinese government approval.

The 747-8 purchase followed competition between Airbus and Boeing for the Hong Kong Airlines order.

While advancing development of its own smaller plane, China tends to balance orders between the two foreign suppliers.

From 1 January next year, the EU will require all airlines flying to Europe to be included in the Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS), a system that compels polluters to buy permits for each tonne of carbon dioxide they emit above a certain cap.

China's top aviation industry body ramped up pressure on the European Union earlier this month, saying it would give full support to legal action against the forced entry of airlines into the EU's carbon trading scheme.
China says the scheme is unfair for developing countries and costly.

Wires

[Captbus]

I am still amazed at the lack of direction and expansion for KA, here are our competitors making order after order and no doubt HKA will take all available slots at an already congested HKG airport.

The future for a command at KA is like a delay in China, "undetermined"....

[boocs]

Captbus,

You are not the only one (amazed at the lack of etc etc....)

b.

[MD330]

The future for a command at KA is like a delay in China, "undetermined"....


Selfish and self interest thinking right! :ugh:

Very sad state of affairs!