Jetstar crew "drunk with tiredness"

[Teal]

From tomorrow's Sunday HeraldSun (already out online):


Jetstar crews 'drunk with tiredness'



Samantha Maiden
From: Sunday Herald Sun
June 12, 2011 12:00AM
THE pressure to drive down flying costs has left Australian crews complaining they are so fatigued they are "drunk with tiredness" and falling asleep on the job.

And foreign air hostesses are working for budget airline Jetstar for half the pay of Australian workers to deliver cut-priced flights.
Air workers have warned the risk of fatigue and communication difficulties with foreign crews could pose a safety risk to passengers, claims that Jetstar strongly rejects.
The behind-the-scenes fallout of Australia's love affair with cheap air travel has been documented in a major Senate investigation of aircraft safety, fatigue and pilot training in Australia.

The Sunday Herald Sun can reveal Thai cabin crew are working in Australia for base salaries of just 14,000 Thai baht or $430 a month, rising up to $30,000 a year with overtime and allowances.

After hearing evidence on the practices of Qantas, Tiger Airways and other carriers, a Senate inquiry is expected to this week call for a major shake-up, including a new focus on fatigue risks by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) and an overhaul of pilot training.

The Senate inquiry has already uncovered an email warning to pilots to "Toughen Up, Princesses" over claims they are suffering fatigue.

But in an official safety complaint known as an OSCAR, obtained by the Sunday Herald Sun, Jetstar crew have also complained they are "drunk with tiredness", posing a safety risk to passengers.

The crew, forced to fly to Bali and return the same day in a 15-hour marathon, complain they are suffering "slurred speech and can't keep their eyes open while landing".

"If things don't change it is only a matter of time before people get seriously injured, if not killed, driving home or on board, by silly mistakes," the safety report says. In response, Jetstar said: "Safety is our No.1 priority and we have an open culture of reporting issues. If a member of our crew is too fatigued then they should not operate the flight and we openly communicate this."

Jetstar said the use of foreign-based crew was entirely legal as the "international" flights originate from Australian cities before flying overseas.

International "tag flights" between Darwin, Cairns and Melbourne also allow foreign crew to fly in Australia without any special work visas.
Australian crew are paid up to $50,000 plus allowances, compared with 14,000 baht ($430) a month for Thai crew plus "generous allowances", and $20,000 a year plus allowances for Singapore-based crew.
"Cabin crew based in a particular country are remunerated and pay tax within that country," Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway said. "All cabin crew on Jetstar services must demonstrate their (English) proficiency. At Jetstar, safety is our first priority and is central to everything we do. Being part of the Qantas group, safety is part of our heritage."

Jetstar chief executive Bruce Buchanan said the airline did not compromise on safety and staff salaries were appropriate.

"The truth is two thirds of our staff are still in Australia," he said. "Those sorts of salaries - $20-$30,000 a year - in those countries are actually enormously high and we are getting the cream of the crop."
He said the airline closely monitored fatigue and responded to feedback by making changes to routes when appropriate, including Bali.


Jetstar crews 'drunk with tiredness' | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/jetstar-crews-drunk-with-tiredness/story-fn7x8me2-1226073572617)

[QFinsider]

I find it somewhat incredible that the QF93 dodger (Buchanan) can with a straight face claim that it is ok to outsource as the salaries are comparable in the country the "recruits" are from.

This is the tired cry of globalisation..Sadly with the housing love affair over, all offshore industry further exposes the Australian worker to further downward pressure on terms and conditions. According to Buchanan it is fine to pay in THB. The convenient bit ignored by the protagonists (who include both major parties and the UN) is the company is still headquarted in Australia.

Buchanan has become filthy rich. Thailand crew aren't better off for J*. What happened to the QF base and their crew?
The haut monde get filthy rich, the Australian public wake up, as did the American public. Out sourcing benefits noone, with the exception of the "executives" profiting from the outsourcing. As Bill Heffernan said, "you can't live off a dividend". The self serving p&*cks at can't even deliver that. Mind you they continue to deliver above market Executive remuneration.It ends with a smoking hole in the ground..The passengers and crew have no parachute, the executives do.

[The Kelpie]

At last the inquiry seems to be getting some mainstream coverage.

International "tag flights" between Darwin, Cairns and Melbourne also allow foreign crew to fly in Australia without any special work visas.


No they don't. Jetstar's definition of an 'international tag flight' is certainly not the same as every one elses and the use of foreign tech crew on a domestic flight between two domestic australian airports (where passenger can join the flight for the initial or final leg) is contrary to this country's immigration regulations if the crew do not hold an appropriate visa conferring work priviledges.

An embarrassment to Minister Chris Bowen, who one would have though had enough on his plate at the moment. His immigration officials are based in significant numbers at every Australian point of entry and Jetstar are smuggling workers through the system every day right in front of the border protection officials.

Looking forward to the report of the committee being published this week.

More to follow

The Kelpie

[stubby jumbo]

WHAT A SURPRISE !:eek:

not !!!!!

We are talking about Jetstar.......an airline that has been a leech-... sucking the life blood out of Qantas mainline since its inception.

Just love this quote from someone masquerading as "management":yuk:

"Those sorts of salaries - $20-$30,000 a year - in those countries are actually enormously high and we are getting the cream of the crop."

Oh yeah...so that makes it morally right does it....you clown.

I suppose you also condone the "slave trade", apartheid and sweat shops.

Please when are we going to rid ourselves of this scourge.??:ugh:

[stubby jumbo]

.......a ray of hope though.:D

Finally, I think the mainstream media are beginning to lock their nostrils on the smell of stench that is prevailing from the bowels of the Qantas "Group".

Its about :mad: time:ok:

[QFinsider]

Anyone interested ought read about Agenda 21.

Bring the Third world up, and hold the first world back...a UN funded agenda, supported by both major political parties. Outsourcing a central plank of the "nirvana" Sadly though with the housing bubble burst and real wages having fallen 20% in the last decade or so the jig is up. Sadly, the only beneficiaries or this process are "executives" who are peddling this crap.
As soon as living standards rise in one third world country, they move to another.
Evidence. QF cabin crew base in TH closed...J* on lower T and C. The little Irish wimp told the same story on the comparable local salaries, sadly the evidence doesn't support any tangible benefit to the consumer, nor the third world worker. As I said the only rich are the bureaucracy (have a look at the UN building in NY) and the "executives" peddling this crap.

[PoppaJo]

Who crews JQ35?, it goes SYD-MEL before a new crew do the 15hr DPS return, do they just pax back to SYD or something?

[Mstr Caution]

I'd guess Samantha from The Sunday Herald Sun has been handed this story as a prelude to the release of the Senate Inquiries Report due out Wednesday.

Nice timing!

[Jethro Gibbs]

Getting very close to the staff having to pay the company #workforfree

[DirectAnywhere]

Qfinsider: Latin police alert

The proletariat get filthy rich

Proletariat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proletariat)

You and I, as members of the working class, are the prols. But I agree with everything else.;)

[Neptunus Rex]

Having set the precedent with 'outsourcing' Engineering, Cabin Staff et al, surely it is now time to outsource Management. A diminutive Foreigner is already running the show, if you could call it that. Surely we can find an Asian entrepreneur to do the job at a fifth of the cost? With his/her bonus paid in shares redeemable in 5 years.

Ah Lan Joss anyone?

[Ultergra]

Damn straight stubby jumbo!!!!

"Oh yeah...so that makes it morally right does it....you clown.

I suppose you also condone the "slave trade", apartheid and sweat shops."


Hell 20-30K a year is far too much. Off shore their jobs again to china or to india, 12-15k a year you can get the top of the crop there too buddy!!

You're a clown Bruce!!!!!!!!!!

[manfred]

Wednesday's Senate sessions may be now compulsory viewing.......
Investors take note
:D

[Gas Bags]

Providing the figures have been reported correctly, at 14,000 THB per month that equates to 168,000 THB per annum, which on todays exchange rate (XEdotcom) is $5,244.13 AUD per annum.

No one could seriously believe that J*'s "generous allowances" could bump up the annual salary of a Thailand based air hostess by between 4 and 6 times the base rate to get the $20,000 to $30,000 that Bruce Buchanan claims.

I guess if you can keep a straight face while speaking people must believe what is coming out of your mouth.

I had no idea that the Qantas group was so benevalent. Who would have thought that all this time, all they are trying to do is improve the lifestyles of our Asian neighbours with their enormous salaries.

Where do I sign up?

GB

[Ushuaia]

Gasbags said: No one could seriously believe that J*'s "generous allowances" could bump up the annual salary of a Thailand based air hostess by between 4 and 6 times the base rate to get the $20,000 to $30,000 that Bruce Buchanan claims.

I think the article has confused the situation re Thai-based and Singaporean-based crew. In an early para it says:

The Sunday Herald Sun can reveal Thai cabin crew are working in Australia for base salaries of just 14,000 Thai baht or $430 a month, rising up to $30,000 a year with overtime and allowances.

But a later para says:

Australian crew are paid up to $50,000 plus allowances, compared with 14,000 baht ($430) a month for Thai crew plus "generous allowances", and $20,000 a year plus allowances for Singapore-based crew.

So it sounds like there is a range of salaries+allowances depending on whether they are Thailand or Singapore based, the highest being about $30,000. If allowances paid are similar, then that suggests a Singaporean is getting around $30,000 p.a. ($20k base +10k allowances) and perhaps a Thai is getting around $15,000 p.a. (5k base +10k allowances)?

Who knows WHAT the truth really is, other than that is clear AJ and BB are hell-bent on using foreigners to do Australian's jobs for as cheap as they can get. I don't know how these blokes sleep at night.

Where is this country heading if we continue to condone this practice? And I'm not just talking the aviation industry now.

[Gas Bags]

The secret to sleeping well at night is believe the lies you tell, and make a bucketload of cash telling them.....

[33 Disengage]

I have just spoken with a large quantity of Afghanistanies on Christmas Is. On my evaluation they are "The Best of the Best". They are willing to work for $5k and no bonuses.

Oh, that's right, could AJ/BB get them a visa as well?

[flyingfox]

Being tired at work is acceptable to CASA. That is why they give dispensations to some operators against CAO 48. Early starts, day or night rosters and long days are now the norm. Any sleep professional will tell you that it runs against nature. CAO 48 worked well before the accountants got at it. Of course the 'fatigue management' systems will save you from going to work tired and off your game! Hahahahahaha!!!!

[bilbert]

Is AJ being paid at Irish pay rates for executives ??

[swh]

No they don't. Jetstar's definition of an 'international tag flight' is certainly not the same as every one elses and the use of foreign tech crew on a domestic flight between two domestic australian airports (where passenger can join the flight for the initial or final leg) is contrary to this country's immigration regulations if the crew do not hold an appropriate visa conferring work priviledges.

This not something new, for years you have been able to jump onto international flights that have a domestic code share, as well as domestic flights that have international code shares. Fact is that Australian crews may not have the appropriate licences to fly those aircraft under the AOC.

This is not unique to aviation, a lot of the costal shipping in Australia is done with foreign craft and crews between "domestic" ports.

His immigration officials are based in significant numbers at every Australian point of entry and Jetstar are smuggling workers through the system every day right in front of the border protection officials.

Hope you have a good solicitor and a large bank account to make such allegations without a thread of proof. I would guarantee you that the international crew would be entering Australia on a gen dec in accordance with standard procedures. The international flight would have an approved international flight number all the way to termination.

[Sunfish]

From the article:

In response, Jetstar said: "Safety is our No.1 priority and we have an open culture of reporting issues. If a member of our crew is too fatigued then they should not operate the flight and we openly communicate this."

Now this seriously offends me.

The previous "toughen up princesses" email demonstrates that the informal Jetstar corporate culture is that complaint will not be tolerated.

The real Jetstar culture is:

You dare to try and communicate that you are "too tired" and see what happens to you!

[The Kelpie]

Hope you have a good solicitor

Don't need one. I believe that my interpretation of the Migration Regulations is robust. But thank you for the advice. Unfortunately I will choose not to take it on this occasion. If Jetstar want to find me and take me to court then so be it but I will make sure that the case is totally in the public eye ensuring the whole country is aware of what is going on and the threat that this type of arrangement poses to the future of this country's jobs. The very thing the Migration Regulations were introduced to protect.

oh and by the way cargo shipping is a totally different kettle of fish!!!

....and a large bank account

Nope!!



just thought that you, and others would also like to know:

The Jetstar cabin crew recruiters have just this week returned to Australia from Bangkok where they are recruiting 1200 Thai crew.

There as been no Australian Based International ground school for well over 3 years. The number of grounds schools that have gone through in Singapore is in the high 20's.

There have been so many Australian crews on transfer lists for years, most wanting to transfer to International only to be told that they plan to imminently recruit 1200 Thai.!!

The game plan is that Jetstar want the Australian crews that have got them this far to resign and then be replaced by off shore crews brought in to do the flying.

When the 'Sunrise Show' did the special last November on Jetstar to Hawaii., a special 'all Aussie crew' were used on the return flights to and from Hawaii - This is not the norm!

The 'generous allowances' Buchanan is talking of in the Telegraph article are the overnight allowance, paid in country of origin currency. All other allowances are built into the base wage. These are 'sweat shop' conditions and he is lying through his teeth.

They have made it very hard to get transport home from the Back of the Clock fying, because CC have to deal with people in Manilla who are blissfully unaware that they have to supply anyone requesting it with transport home in these circumstances.

BB states Jetstar is an Australian based company - C'mon Bruce, make your mind up one way or the other. He stood up in a 'road show' and stated after being ask about off shore recruitment. "we never said we were an Australian company".

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Howard Hughes]

And foreign air hostesses are working for budget airline Jetstar for half the pay of Australian workers to deliver cut-priced flights.

The use of International (arguably 'slave') labour is not to keep prices down, but to deliver greater bonuses to executive managers. They could still use Australian labour with little or no effect on prices.:rolleyes:

[LAME2]

the spin makes me heave...

and me.....

[remoak]

Welcome to market economics the hard way, lads.

Australian aviation is now learning what the rest of the world has known for some time. You can all say goodbye to the Qantas of old, it's a dinosaur anyway and could never survive in that form. Like it or not, Jetstar and it's ilk are the way of the future, and no amount of breast-beating will change that.

You'd better all learn to adapt...

BTW not suggesting that this is a good thing, it isn't, but it is the new reality.

[Xcel]

This is not unique to aviation, a lot of the costal shipping in Australia is done with foreign craft and crews between "domestic" ports.

swh I think you'll find that any ship operating within Australian waters MUST have an Australian crew... The union has helped regulation that dictates the key positions which must be filled, and what is deemed as "operating". Of course their are some exemptions, but as a whole this is the crux of their operating requirements.

I don't see why the government can't open it's eyes - they won't allow more than 49% ownership by foreign investments but we can operate with 100% foreign crew.

[Xcel]

Would love to know when maximum duty became standard - minimum rest became standard - and exemptions and extensions became worlds best practice...

Productivity is important I agree - but not at the detriment of safety.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Not sure if it has been mentioned here or elsewhere, but here is the J* response to the Herald Sun. Spot the spin anyone? :uhoh:


http://resources.news.com.au/files/2011/06/11/1226073/572659-hs-file-jetstars-response.pdf

[The Kelpie]

A slippery response Simon.

The reason you do not want to re answer the questions is because, I would suggest, that they are asked in a slightly different manner and to answer truthfully would drop your boss in it!!

More to follow


The kelpie

[Chimbu chuckles]

A thread about, allegedly, fatigue and you spend 2 pages railing against Asian FA pay?

I will give you a hint - these girls are being VERY well paid by the standards of their respective countries. Plus some will be hawking the fork down route and earning a shedload more cash.and some will marry pilots and end up in Australia. And before anyone shouts me down for that last statement its merely a fact. Happens in my airline, happens in CX, EK, Thai etc etc etc.

I pay my Filipino live in maid < 1/3rd what these girls are paid and when she sends 80% of her pay home each month THAT proportion equates to the same pay as a Provincial Court Judge. In just the first several years she worked for me she bought some acres, built a house and stocked it with family and farm animals - all cash. Her biggest fear in life is me leaving and she losing her job.

Wouldn't we love to be earning enough disposable income to pay cash for some acres and build a house after working just 3 years?

They're being paid about the same as FAs the length and breadth of asia..in many cases significantly more. We have Thai, Burmese, Indonesian, Malay, Filipino, Vietnamese girls working the cabin on my airline for probably slightly less money and they are VERY happy with their lot. Great bunch of girls.

You have plenty to be concerned about and PLENTY to be fighting for at JQ - this aint it.

Like JQ if I, and 10s of 1000s of expats/middle and upper class asians, asia wide, were forced to pay what a live in maid cost in Australia, Riz and millions of her sisters would be unemployed instantly. 100s of millions of Pesos would no longer flow back into the PI. 10s of millions of extended family would be impoverished.

Same with the Thai etc girls working JQ asia cabins. They're not 'slaves'. No one press ganged them into a JQA airbus. The competition for those jobs would have been/is FIERCE.

If this was imposed by govt fiat the first people protesting would be the maids and FAs...at their RIGHT to sell their labour at a rate THEY consider fair being taken away.

The carryon on this thread shows you as nothing but ignorant of the world outside Australia...not a good look.

[remoak]

Chimbu is right on the money. But then, Australian aviation has always lived in splendid isolation from the rest of the world... NZ is no better.

The carryon on this thread shows you as nothing but ignorant of the world outside Australia...not a good look.

Precisely.

[packrat]

I'm sure you could get an Asian CEO to run Qantas for about $100k/pa.
They would do a damn sight better job.
Does fatigue legislation apply to offshore employees?

[Chimbu chuckles]

I'm sure you could get an Asian CEO to run Qantas for about $100k/pa.
They would do a damn sight better job.

I can give you the name of JUST such an individual - seriously. AWESOME SQ trained CEO.

Does fatigue legislation apply to offshore employees?

Flying VH reg yes - other no. Having said that the FA FTLs on my airline are not onerous let alone dangerous.

[tech-line]

How did a report on fatigue end up dealing with pay grades in OZ and Asia?
I have stood back and read a lot of posts on this site for quite a while but have not opened my mouth.
My question is how is pay related to safety?
All FA are trained by the same people to the same standards all this is dictated by the regulators, manufacturers and the operators!
They are all doing the same job and have the same experience. So far I have not heard of anyone saying they are less qualified or less trained just paid less.
I hate what is happening in OZ but what can I do?
I have flown on Jstar with a foriegn crew and an OZ crew I can see no difference?
When someone complains about fatigue and then you mention pay you get everyone offside.

[The Kelpie]

Simon is leaving?

Maybe he is pissed at being passed over by worthless for the top at QANTAS!!

Simon, you did not get the job because you have a pair of balls and you are a rotten liar!

We can all see through your spin.

[rmcdonal]

Just to clear up a few misconceptions about coastal shipping
Licences
Under the Act vessels may be licensed to participate in Australia's coastal trade irrespective of flag and crew nationality. Licenses are issued on condition that:
the vessel's crew are paid Australian wages while the vessel trades on the Australian coast; and
the vessel's crew have access to the vessel's library facilities

Coasting Trade Licences & Permits (http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/maritime/freight/licences/index.aspx)

[Sunfish]

For the benefit of HMCClown and anyone else who doesn't understand the trick Jetstar is pulling:

A double bind is an emotionally distressing dilemma in communication in which an individual (or group) receives two or more conflicting messages, in which one message negates the other. This creates a situation in which a successful response to one message results in a failed response to the other (and vice versa), so that the person will be automatically wrong regardless of response. The double bind occurs when the person cannot confront the inherent dilemma, and therefore cannot resolve it or opt out of the situation.


Double bind - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind)



...And what Jetstar has done is say:

If a member of our crew is too fatigued then they should not operate the flight and we openly communicate this."

But here is what they are really saying - a classic double bind, from the Jetstar email:




Toughen up princesses!

You aren’t fatigued, you are tired and can’t be bothered going to work.

The hardest thing about doing [flight] JQ117 backed up by the BOC is the time away from the family. There is ample time for rest if you utilize it correctly. I understand this is easy to say but sacrifices have to be made. We are all shift workers and that doesn’t always fit in with normal life. If you became an airline pilot thinking that you will be home every night and not have to fly through the night, then that is pretty naive. [b]Might be time to go instructing. (threat - do you really want to work here?)


Now the powers to that be could have used this as a perfect opportunity to down-size the base, or even close it. (- another threat) But it shows that JQ is committed to the base and want it to work. Having said that, if I was Bruce and a bunch of pilots, who have taken a lot of days off, only fly 60-75 hours a month, started to call in ‘fatigued’ and didn’t want those days to come out of personal leave days, then I would start to look at other options. If flights started to be cancelled, then I would not hesitate in closing the base (-repeated threat) and have all flying done from MEL. Be careful of what you wish for!

.........

....If you honestly believe you can’t operate safely, not just because you feel terrible, then call in UFD [unfit for duty]. But it is UNFIT FOR DUTY! I can’t see how it can not be taken from your personal leave. (- threat, your leave will be docked if you call in fatigued.)




http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/429828-merged-senate-inquiry-48.html#post6355713

I think I know the way this ends. A landing accident due to fatigue, runway excursion, followed by a fire. Those pretty little Asian girls won't be able to cope with the evacuation and a lot of people will die.

[Popgun]

I don't see an emotional rant....again, just a measured, logical analysis.

Perhaps there is something to be noted in your 'clown'-like handle.

LOL!!!

PG

[assasin8]

Prefer doppio ristretto myself...:p

[gobbledock]

Simon, you did not get the job because you have a pair of balls and you are a rotten liar!
But so does/is she !!!!