Tiger Airways jet flew 'below safe altitude'

[Carlos169]

From The Age today: Tiger Airways jet flew 'below safe altitude'

A Tiger Airways flight is under investigation by Australia's safety watchdog after flying too low into Melbourne Airport last night.
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau says the aircraft "descended to a level below the lowest safe altitude" during an instrument approach.
The Airbus A320 had flown from Brisbane, the incident occurring at 9.02pm as it approached Melbourne Airport.
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It's not known at this stage how far the aircraft breached the minimum safe altitude on approach, or whether the automatic electronic warnings of low altitude were triggered in the cockpit.
There were no injuries, the bureau said.
Tiger Airways has been contacted for comment.
It's the latest safety drama to beset the low cost airline, after the Civil Aviation Safety Authority challenged the airline in March to "show cause" why its licence to fly should not be revoked.
The airline's chiefs have been quizzed about the matter by senators as part of a parliamentary inquiry into airline safety and pilot training.
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Read more: Tiger Airways jet flew 'below safe altitude' (http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-incidents/tiger-airways-jet-flew-below-safe-altitude-20110608-1fs3y.html#ixzz1OeccGQxE)

[Angle of Attack]

If you look at Plane Talking there is a write up in more details, its is alleged the A320 descended to around 2100ft AMSL flying south towards Epping to join the ILS for runway 27. Thats around 1500-1700ft agl.

Tiger Airways belly crawl into Melbourne under safety probe | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/06/08/tiger-belly-crawl-into-melbourne-under-investigation/)

[PPRuNeUser0163]

From webtrak archive - the MVA for the area is 2100ft. Plane went down to 2070ft at around 2102:10.

[caneworm]

As with any incident probably best not to speculate (in a public forum) until the lads are interviewed on what really happened.

The 3pm radio news reported that a Tiger Airways "A380" was involved in this incident. :ugh:
'nuf said

[Jabawocky]

:eek:

10nm MSA is 3300, and further out 4500' Anyone know the radar lowest safe in that spot.

In the dark and IMC it is one of my concerns punching in a wrong altitude and only myself to check it, but two crew? Yikes :uhoh:

[Keg]

Jaba, been a while since I've flown that STAR but I recall 2500' as being the cleared altitude when turning base. I don't recall ever going below that until G/S intercept- probably because it's about 2000' above the aerodrome reference point.

[Jabawocky]

Thanks Keg, it looks like that is where they climbed back up to.

Just a quick look at the various STAR's and up in the NE of the field all the minimum altitudes are no lower than 3000' so a radar lower safe of 2500 is probably as low as you go.

As much as you probably would not hit anything being at 2100' it must be an aweful feeling knowing you came close. I bet some undies were changed after that:sad:

Punters down the back all blissfully unaware! :O

[Prince Niccolo M]

nkand,

while the MVA may be 2100', the fact that the descent to 2070 is reversed with a climb back to around 2500' prior to GS intercept :uhoh: :uhoh: suggests that the descent was unplanned. :eek: :eek: It does look like it was holding 2500 turning south initially.

[Mr. Hat]

Yes but as I heard one expert commentator on the bus this morning:

"I get to fly to Brissy for $69 return, I've never had one problem with them. All these other mobs are just rippin us off".

[mattyj]

what was the A320 thinking..those poor pilots!

[Howabout]

Mr Hat.

That is, indeed, a scurrilous comment. Do you have no shame?

As a thong and singlet wearing punter, who showers irregularly, and hasn't heard of deodorant, I'll take 69 bucks over busting MSA, MDA, DH or whatever else.

Mate, I just want to get there and party!

[Angle of Attack]

Generally Epping is a 3000' or above altitude in FMC'S database, and after all there is no reason to be below that as it is GS intercept height. Unless Visual Day VMC of course. ATC will never clear you below 3000' in IMC approaching EPP, after 3000' its cleared ILS approach usually, which means you need to be on the LOC to go lower. Anyway no circumstances are known at the moment could have been anything including malfunction of systems etc. etc.
Unfortunately the report will probably take a year or more to come out!:rolleyes:

[Prince Niccolo M]

Jabbawocky,

Just a quick look at the various STAR's and up in the NE of the field all the minimum altitudes are no lower than 3000'

http://www.airservices.gov.au/publications/current/dap/MMLSR01-125.pdf

looks like 2500' on the STAR to me!

[Scamp Damp]

2500' is the MOCA

[wheels_down]

Tech related mabye not. The A320 went off to PER after this flight with no problems.

[Skystar320]

So what happens with all the 'other' airlines that regularly do this?

[PoppaJo]

So how did the media get hold of this? I mean, dont the ATSB issue these these type of reports each week, fortnight or something?

[PPRuNeUser0163]

Poppa,

its on the ATSB main page or was when i last checked anyways. I'm sure other major media eg news ltd etc source aviation related 'stories' from Sandilands articles when they lack good stories that will sell papers:ugh: cringe

[Hoofharted]

If you are on the ARBEY ONE STAR RWY 27ALPHA established 083 from Baker to Paula you are PERFECTLY entitled to descend to 2500' and join the 27ILS at 2500'. This applies if you are conducting the ARBEY or WENDY arrival for rwy27.

This is regardless of day, night, imc, being visual or whatever may or may not be in the box and probably goes to show how "over-reliant" some are on it. :ugh: The coding in the box does not always reflect the prescribed minima on the relevant charts, but reflects the way that the machine is programmed to fly the approach.

[Jabawocky]

Niccolo

Are you suggesting that they were between PAULA and EPP when this happened? If so they only went 400 feet below. Thats so much better :hmm:

By the way I did not say ALL charts so thanks for finding the one/s I did not bother to look at. Still looks ugly all the same.

[Angle of Attack]

If you are on the ARBEY ONE STAR RWY 27ALPHA established 083 from Baker to Paula you are PERFECTLY entitled to descend to 2500' and join the 27ILS at 2500'. This applies if you are conducting the ARBEY or WENDY arrival for rwy27.


I agree but pity they went to 2100ft prior to Epping... thats why it got an incedent report........

[partial aviator]

One of the Syd / Mel flights that night was a Ferry flight ...

[ozineurope]

Could the FMS have commenced descent to 2000 without any other input from the crew? Looking at the arrival the STAR link up does not take you via EPP but tracks to intercept the LOC. Could the FMS treat the leg as a constant descent/turn and commence descent to intercept the GS at 2000 by 7DME?

So it flies the radius to intercept the LOC, next step in the APP is 2000 at 7DME and the FMS just goes there whilst navigating to intercept.

Possible?

[Keg]

Not the way it's coded on a Boeing FMS. Not sure about the micro-bus though.

[travelator]

Could the FMS have commenced descent to 2000 without any other input from the crew?

I would imagine that the only way this would happen is that there was an altitude lower than 2500 set in the GCP altitude window. I am not familiar with the Airbus kit but in the machine I fly that is how it works.

[waren9]

From PAULA to EPP is coded in the FMS as +3000. It can be modified to +2500 from the WENDY or ARBEY stars.

Possible causes

A. An inadvertant wrong altitude in the FCU and flying in selected modes which circumvents the protection of a managed altitude constraint, which itself can be wrongly modified, or

B. A handflown mistake, or

C. Inadvertant false GS capture

Others might think of a few more

[TrenShadow]

A/c was between PAULA and EPP. MSA on the STAR is 2500, MVA is 2400.

Kudos to the vigilance of the approach controller - no alarms would have sounded as the a/c had been cleared for the ILS so no "Cleared Level Adherence" warning.

[Jack Ranga]

Kudos to the vigilance of the approach controller

Indeed shadow!

Proof that the system works, lookin' out for each others backs :ok:

[frozen man]

reminds me of a time the controller asked us if we would like to come inside Paula, some one asked if they could they could have a look first, general noise on the radio lasted a while, the whole star was flown

[Capn Bloggs]

Kudos to the vigilance of the approach controller - no alarms would have sounded as the a/c had been cleared for the ILS so no "Cleared Level Adherence" warning.
Doesn't TAAATS have a Min Safe Altitude Warning function?

PS: Good call by App. :D