useless callouts

[711]

1.) Transition speech ( keep a simple "transition" and a "check", but,for the love of Jesus Christ, let's bin the rest)

2.) 5000 to go
Why??????

3.) Nav Aid blabla identified

What if you do not get an identification? You divert??
3 GPS, 3 IRS, come on...

TBC

[cxorcist]

711,

I could not agree more and look forward to reading the non-evolving dinosaurs defense of those calls. So let's hear it...

[freightdoggiedog]

2.) 5000 to go
Why??????

Because, my dear chap, that's the way we used to do it on the Tristar!

[SloppyJoe]

One thing I have never understood is when you hand over after someone goes to the loo, or comes back, or gets up to stretch their legs, or even during the handover between rests there are quite a few guys who read the FMA, "Mach, Alt Cruise, Nav". Why not also include AP1, auto thrust, TCAS below, no smoking ON, anti ice ON/OFF, table stowed, map light off, dome light ON, cockpit door locked, chart secured, shoes tight, pen in pocket, dinner heating up, landing light off, sun visor in position, oxygen mask stowed, bleeds on, engines running, wings working, prims on, secs on, fire buttons in, sidestick there, fms flight plan, cpdlc logged on, temperature ok, bulk temp ok.

[Kontract Killer]

5000' calls are history - standing by for the amendment :D

'Transition'?....only really applicable at 'Transition' on the the way up and not really specified on the way down and therefore open to the old "opinion' basket and interpretation of the written word....my preference, set QNHXXXX once cleared to an altitude, most 'sensible' aviators (Canuck Checkers and other members of www.anallyretentive. com...this domain is for sale and standing by for subscribers BTW, (http://www.anallyretentive.com)excluded) seem to understand what I am referring to :)

We may have hit the ground bit at least we expired saying all the right words and wearing our hats....gotta love the MO in CX :ugh:

Now officially one of the worlds '5 STAR' airlines, so we must be better than the rest....right :cool:

[FrankR]

A great English teacher said the best communicators use the fewest words...

The two things I hate most are crazy flight attendants and long winded briefings.

Cheers!

FR

[Air Profit]

...if you don't like it, quit and start your own airline... there's a happy medium. I think most of us know where the 'sweet' spot is...

[&&&]

What sort of dingbat doesn't understand the reasons behind clearly stating who is in control in any circumstances.......?

[Captain Dart]

After promising beginnings when even management considered that the old CX briefings were ridiculously long-winded, the 'CTWO' briefs have become 'CTWO + threats + strategies to mitigate the threats + landing distance assessment'.

The briefings are becoming 'threats' in themselves; long-winded and distracting. For a start it should be just 'standard brief' for HKG arrivals and departures in reasonable weather and normal operations.

And don't get me started on the ridiculous callouts. I remember a post where some bright spark actually counted the number of times he said 'check' in a TPE-HKG flight. I think it was over a hundred.

Other hates:

'heads down'
'park brake off'
e.g. 'East Bumf_ck VOR identified' (having been autotuned in an RNAV environment)
'above MSA' on the climb (not even CX requires this)
'your radios'
threats made up for the sake of it such as 'inbound traffic'

And Profit, before you tell me to 'leave and start my own airline', if just one of our pilots, or dare I say a manager, takes what I have to say on board, my work here is done. You can always quit PPrUNE and start your own bulletin board.

[Dragon69]

to add to the useless threat comments in the CTWO briefs..

...haven't flown in two weeks..
...I am fairly tired.....

:E:E

and by far the most useless call on the Airbus....the CAT 1 call after AP disconnect.

[Air Profit]

...I think the LOSA (or is it LHOSA) audits demonstrate that overall CX has found just about the best mix of SOP's and professional application of same. I would rather it the 'CX way' than my last major airline, where upon reaching the transition alt the PF invariably said '992 for me and you'.... nuff said.

[Beta Light]

The 5000 feet calls were standard when the Voice recorder was on a 30 minute loop tape and the flight recorder was an independent "box" ( usually a silver tape +/- 200 hours if my memory serves me right )
The 5000' calls gave investigators a point to line the flight and voice recorder up for any investigation after an incident / accident.

Alt. setting, also to do with old generation vibrators in the capsules blah blah blah....

Bottom line, "that's how we did it in the Tri Star and B707 is correct".

[Beta Light]

There is enough monitoring and ECAM / EICAS warnings if you get it wrong. Normally the radio monitoring and missed radio calls will be a bigger thread at this point.
e.g T.D. arriving and departing traffic.

[Oval3Holer]

What sort of dingbat doesn't understand the reasons behind clearly stating who is in control in any circumstances.......?

&&&, I think the circumstance whereby there will be only ONE pilot in the damn seats clearly doesn't require the pilot standing to go take a leak to say, "You have control." Come on! Get an f'in grip, man!

[Harlem]

Most of you are Airbus guys, aren´t you? Then the problem is coming from France.

[positionalpor]

When I joined CX I felt I lost any "sense of airmanship" I had for many years with nonsense "emphasis" on "wording". During a line check once a TC thought my situational awareness was lacking because on 2 consecutive sectors I didn't say;" TD identified". The WX was CAVOK and unusually sunny in HK.
I'll leave at that...........

[Captain Boers]

Without going into the detail of each and every call there there is one overriding reason for calls - it is communication between the crew and certainly aids monitoring and awareness.

Yes modern flight decks are automated - there is, therefore, an even greater danger that crews lapse into a state of detachment from reality. The Airbus Fleet used to brief from the MCDU and FMA - this was the correct way for such an automated aircraft as that is what the aircraft will actually fly. In the interest of 'commonality' we now have generic type briefs which are, as in all compromises, not ideal.

Those that have been around CX for some time realise why we do things the way we do imperfect though it may be. Those who haven't should adopt the engage brain before finger concept and then write a paper on why things should be different and how they should be changed.

So that we can really open the floodgates of vitriol - yes I am ex-military, ex fighters ex B747 and now Airbus.

Have a nice day.

[iflylow]

What the h*ll is wrong with all of you? Who do you all think you are? To dare challenge the infinite wisdom of CATHAY PACIFIC??!

CATHAY PACIFIC invented flying.

Both Boeing and Airbus approached CATHAY PACIFIC on how to build the world's first airliners, and every subsequent one after that.

You better all learn your place and get in line.

The beatings will continue until moral improves!!

[VR-HFX]

With only Wilbur, Orville and a couple of blokes who remember the 707 above me on the seniority list, I feel comfortable in suggesting that single pilot IFR is best conducted in total silence.

Let's just do away with calls, checklists and all other interaction at the sharp end and commit it all to Tweets. Them's that have the most Twots and Tweets win. Sectors are to be given to the lad/lass who has the most Tweets prior to launch. Maybe Toss can add that to the iToss app.

Comms are so bad on flight decks without gingerbeers that I just listen to Barry Manilow and do the sudoku:ok:

[main_dog]

Most of you are Airbus guys, aren´t you? Then the problem is coming from France.

Much as I love to bash the French, I don't think this one can be blamed on Airbus... I don't recall hearing anyone in CX saying "ALT etoile" (yet :})

Capt Boers, I'm honestly curious, do you not think we might be a little too verbose in CX? Obviously many call-outs are absolutely necessary and fully in line with industry best practice; but do you not feel in CX we might -currently- take it just a little too far (the 5000' call springs to mind)?

MD

[FR8R H8R]

...CHECK...

[Oval3Holer]

Despite the training manager stating, in writing, that verbalizing

07R identified
final clear
departure clear
TCAS clear
I have weather

is NOT required, PEOPLE STILL DO IT!!!! BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA

SHUT UP AND FLY!

[Steve the Pirate]

Oval, this thread is entitled "useless callouts" not "unnecessary callouts". There is a distinct difference, the first being aimed at the system and the second at the individual. The second issue could be addressed by taking a bit of time to point out to "offenders" that some things need to be confirmed but that the confirmation doesn't need to be verbalised.

STP

[parabellum]

During a line check once a TC thought my situational awareness was lacking because on 2 consecutive sectors I didn't say;" TD identified". The WX was CAVOK and unusually sunny in HK.
I'll leave at that...........

Pedant and Devil's Advocate mode ON.

1. Had you cancelled IFR and gone VFR? (It was a Line Check, right?).

2. Do you advocate one set of call-outs on a nice sunny day and another set of call-outs for IMC? (Cat II & III excluded).

3. Isn't it easier to stick to one set throughout, less to remember?

Pedant and Devil's Advocate mode OFF.

[Zeke]

The 5000' calls come from the 707 days when the 3 point altimeter was often misread.

[Mooseflyer]

Air Profit said: I would rather it the 'CX way' than my last major airline, where upon reaching the transition alt the PF invariably said '992 for me and you'.... nuff said.

Seriously? You think the 5 minute conversation we're supposed to have is better than a simple crosscheck? (never mind the fact that we're both looking at data from the same ADC source on most A/C). Example: a departure I had a few weeks ago had 3.....count 'em 3.... altimiter changes between preflight and taxi. After all the required verbal diarrhea we came damn near close to having to block in again for additional fuel. God forbid that happens upon arrival in the terminal area....

On the flip side, when was the last time anyone mentioned an altimiter check or GNE check before coast out? Right, never. Ah, what do those ICAO folks know anyway :rolleyes:

[Oval3Holer]

Why don't we just ask a question if there is a doubt? Any of CX's fleet can be flown with just one pilot, no problem, so the other guy is just there to ask a question when something doesn't look right. If everything looks right, keep your trap shut. Too much chatter introduces more problems than it supposedly solves. How on Earth do single-pilot aircraft manage to fly around, day-to-day, with a pretty good safety record, while multi-pilot aircraft (AF447 for example or the CX flight which did a go-around in HKG while NOT on autopilot while four pilots watched it almost stall as it flew itself from 500 feet to over 6000 feet over Lantau Island) have lots of incidents too?

Strobes on? Who doesn't know that we normally turn on the strobes (and we should actually turn on all exterior lights, INCLUDING wing lights (oh, who has ever seen THEM turned on?) while crossing a runway?

Finished with the forward lights? What other f'in lights are you possibly finished with????

Fully ready? No, only partially. I'll call you back when fully ready.

On finals? Which one? Both?

Ugh.

[VforVENDETTA]

WTFO?! Don't you people know a windup post when you see one?! The ****** with the first post is obviously sitting back having a laugh at all the fussing & fighting. The CP mentioned in his newsletter how they're getting rid of a whole bunch of these calls days before this discussion was started! All you bitchers are a little late to the game, aren't you? Yes this is an inbred operation stuck in it's own twilight zone and light years behind the US or a few Euro airlines when it comes to up to date effective procedures/standard callouts etc..., is that news to you?! Why complain AFTER they announce they're improving? Before the announcement this all would've been valid, days afterwards... it's a windup!

[geh065]

Finished with the forward lights? What other f'in lights are you possibly finished with????

Why, the logo lights obviously, as well as the map lights and the cabin lights!

[Basil]

JDI!

One thought: "One to go until one to go" was when one inadvertently started to call "One to go" one too early :8

[The Wraith]

Hey Vee,
Thanks for pointing out that while the US airlines are ALL up to par and way ahead, only "a few" European airlines are there.....
Up your own American ass much?!!:D

[Ushuaia]

"CHECK"? "CHECK"? "CHECK"?

Good grief, you Cathay blokes have got it ALL WRONG. What a bunch of unprofessional, slovenly pilots you blokes all are. Standards really are slipping up there, aren't they?!

Down here in Qantas it is "CHECKED!"

:E:}:E:}:ugh:

[SMOC]

It was typical of CX, the 747 has two rudders so "rudders" seemed normal but if you then converted to the bus you were quickly picked up on it, vv when returning to the 74.

I happened to be in the Airbus office when they were discussing 'flap' & 'flaps' :ugh:

The deciding factor was to look at a photo of the Airbus cockpit hanging on the wall and see it said flaps, therefore it was 'flaps' which became company standard, (Boeing says flap), typical micromanagement with no common sense behind their decisions.

At least its slowly changing, however there are still guys enforcing crap that has been dropped.

It'll all change back, it always does. :}

"positive rate" I think this'll be the 4th time it's changed. :D

[md rc]

Despite our frustrations, bottom line is we have chosen to fly for Cathay as, for now, it suits our life and/or income needs. Is it really so onerous for the more experienced amongst us to have to play the threat/strategy game,, to have to think in the descent, "Err, what's next, aah - getting lower/closer" - (just two examples of excess verbiage quoted in this thread).

"We" may have built up the airmanship to not need a mandatory framework of preparatory and ongoing actions. "We" could therefore give license for "just do it" briefs or adopt the "be there and cope" outlook we may miss from previous lives. But take a non standard day with a few ac glitches and your wife on board, take a young stud from an ego driven culture and another perhaps from Hong Kong where thinking outside of the box is actively discouraged in schools, who believes (and it's no fault of his own) in his bones that he should only do as taught/in the FCOM. Who in that crew will elect to consider the stuff that "We" would now have the experience to just know needed considering?

Drives me mental too guys but ya know....so what? One day a few years ago, even "We" might have been the Lowest Common Denominators

[VforVENDETTA]

Wrait,
Sorry posting real fast and i guess it didn't come out right. No not ALL US airlines are up to speed as they should. in fact, one large major US airline is the industry leader in violations and FAA fines year after year. The reason i said some Euro airlines is some of the eastern Euro ones have serious problems. BA, LH, KLM etc. are as up to speed as any and pretty impressive as far as i know. And as for your anal comment... right back at you chap. :ok:

[EXEZY]

Can't believe you all forgot the classic Airbus routine of putting the landing lights on at top of drop, classic! What's wrong with doing the "10 checks" like every other airline, 10,000 feet, landing lights off/on.

[The Wraith]

Vee,
Fair point....I stand corrected!
Cheers!
TW:ok:

[Beta Light]

Industry standard: " Cleared for take Off" the PM turn the landing lights on as confirmation of take off clearance, all crew is aware of the clearance and surrounding traffic know you are commencing the roll.
I will never cross a runway , unless I double check with ATC,, if the aircraft lined up have all his lights on, as I only know of one airline that enter the runway with all lights on.

CX's biggest problem is there is no cross pollination. CX management have only ever known their own procedure, and remember they invented flying.

[MELDreamer]

Because.......that's the way we used to do it on the Tristar!
When I was on the Tristar, I was told it was because "that's the way we used to do it on the Convair".

At least these days you don't, prior to ToD, have to state the readouts of all your primary flight instruments incl. ADI ("two-and-a-half degree nose up, wings level"). That on an aeroplane with an instrument comparator and a thingy monitoring the comparator too!

Unnecessary callouts..it has been thus for 30+ yrs.

[Bob Hawke]

"Meet you in the Lobby at 6 for a beer." Unambiguous to the point, not often requiring a read-back, but on some occasions does.

[Steve the Pirate]

Beta Light

I will never cross a runway , unless I double check with ATC,, if the aircraft lined up have all his lights on, as I only know of one airline that enter the runway with all lights on.

Sorry, I don't see your point. On one hand it appears that you agree with putting all the lights on to ensure that the entire crew understands the clearance and on the other it appears that you disagree with your quoted "Industry standard". What's your point?

STP

[FlexibleResponse]

To make any sort of standard call-out, you need to:

1. Closely observe the operation.
2. Comprehend what you observe.
3. Verbalized when the event happens.

...and be prepared to be vilified if you get it wrong...and castigated if you miss a call.

I find this is all very stress-full, time-consuming and the process interrupts the karma and gentle soothing of my iPod music.

I mean 99 times out of 100 it just doesn't matter, does it?

[Beta Light]

When receiving T / Off clearance, switch on the landing lights. No uncertainty, or questions later " have we been cleared"

When cleared to cross a runway, and an aircraft is lined up with all his lights on, I'll be asking questions.

Landing lights on = cleared for take off
Hope that explains it.

[cxorcist]

Beta Light,

I too wish we connected the landing lights ON to landing and takeoff clearances. When I used to do this at CX, I often would get the :confused: look like what the hell are you doing. So I have just stopped and reverted to CX standard which is to require nearly every clearance to be read at least twice. It is pathetic and a potentially dangerous increase to the already excessive comm in our flightdecks. Then we wonder why ATC comms is one of the most mismanaged CX threats in the LOSA archive :ugh:. It must be our challenging ATC environment. Yeah, that's it. :mad: It couldn't be us.

I am not sure why something that makes sense in the rest airline world does not work in Hong Kong. Guess we are just smarter and more capable than everyone else, including the aircraft manufacturers and their pilots. I hope our CPs have the center-loins to change some of this ridiculousness...

[Steve the Pirate]

Beta

OK, I get it now. So, a "Line up and wait" instruction = strobes only?

STP

[Popgun]

Beta

OK, I get it now. So, a "Line up and wait" instruction = strobes only?

STP

It depends on the company. My previous company turned the landing lights on with the take off clearance. My current company turns the landing lights on prior to crossing the take off runway holding point (whether cleared for take off or just cleared to line up only).

You would think after this many years of jet aviation operations we would have standardised things by now. Unfortunately, as a global industry, we're not even close.

PG