HKG 3rd RWY/SZX 2nd RWY

[Grumble Joe]

CX/KA Regional flights out of SZX?
No.2 runway at Shenzhen airport to open by end of June - What's On Shenzhen (http://www.whatsonshenzhen.com/news-291-no-2-runway-at-shenzhen-airport-to-open-by-end-of-june.html)

[Oval3Holer]

Someone fill me in here. Since it seems as though HKG does not even make use of the SECOND runway (compare simultaneous parallel runway ops at any first-world airport), how is a THIRD runway going to help anything? Won't it just become another place for planes to park alongside while waiting for takeoff clearance? With two runways, HKG seems to launch even less airplanes per hour than other airports with just one runway. What am I missing here?

[Steve the Pirate]

With two runways, HKG seems to launch even less airplanes per hour than other airports with just one runway. What am I missing here? I'm not sure but could it be traffic mix and separation requirements when compared to other ports? I do know that some busy ports have lots of 737/320 traffic compared to heavy traffic - maybe one of our ATC colleagues could shed some light on the discussion.

STP

[geh065]

Someone fill me in here. Since it seems as though HKG does not even make use of the SECOND runway (compare simultaneous parallel runway ops at any first-world airport), how is a THIRD runway going to help anything? Won't it just become another place for planes to park alongside while waiting for takeoff clearance? With two runways, HKG seems to launch even less airplanes per hour than other airports with just one runway. What am I missing here?

I don't think true parallel ops can be done here. The terrain means that in case of any issues, or double go-arounds, the planes cannot really be separated and I don't think the ATC equipment is good enough to allow it either. I believe they are waiting for the new ATC center to open which will bring huge improvements to what they can do but I am sure an ATC-er can provide more info.

[N1 Vibes]

HKIA - 2 runways - 900 flights per day

SZX - 1 runway - 600 flights per day

Food for thought:

HKIA Airport Express - 23 mins to downtown

Shenzhen - Kowloon - 12 mins (on the high speed rail link - under const)

[bekolblockage]

Sure! We're more than happy to do simultaneous parallel approaches so long as you're happy with the breakout procedure that ICAO requires.
How does right Heading 120 sound in IMC at 500' on final for 07R? Thought not!

There's no doubt the place is not pushing the limits yet. But do you not think that in 10-12 years that may not be the case, with our current growth rate? Coz that's how far ahead AA need to be planning. No point waiting til 2018 and then saying, **** we're gunna be full in 3 years.

The comparison you make is just not apples with apples. As Steve said, the mix here is almost 70:30 H:M (the reverse of EGLL by the way)so over 2/3 of our spacings are governed by wake turbulence requirements. This isn't DFW with 7 runways for less than double the annual movements of HK and 98% of the traffic MD-80s, 73's.

[FR8R H8R]

Some people can't get to Shenzen because of visa issues, so high speeeeed rail will only help the locals for the most part.

As for the third runway, how about throwing it onto South Lantau. Declutter the North side a bit. :E

[Sqwak7700]

Good point N1.

ZGSZ was advertising that they would subsidize any airline that would open a hub there. It is beyond me why CPA/HDA did not jump at that opportunity, but I guess that would require good management with talent.

Think about it, the PRD is way bigger than the NY tri-state area. Yet NYC is served by 3 major airports (KJFK, KLGA, KEWR). And airlines that operate into one usually operate into all three.

I think CPA should be pushing to start long-haul services out of ZGSZ before China Southern and Shenzhen airlines do. CSN has already started services to Australia and other long-haul destinations from ZGSZ.

VHHH is not gonna grow any time soon, so why have they not jumped at this opportunity yet? Think about it, if you need to fly to ZGSZ or ZGGG your only option (long haul) is basically a Chinese carrier. Imagine if ZSPD or ZBAA was only served by Chinese carriers.

:ugh:

[cxorcist]

but it seems to me that HKG's 2 runways ought to be used equally for arrivals and departures. Staggering the arrivals between the two runways in such a way that meets separation requirements for wake turbulence and go arounds should facilitate departures on the same intervals whereby aircraft are put into position immediately following landing traffic. They are cleared for takeoff right after rollout traffic clears.

Anyone care to explain why this wouldn't work?

[Steve the Pirate]

It is beyond me why CPA/HDA did not jump at that opportunity, but I guess that would require good management with talent.


Could it have anything to do with traffic rights? I would have thought that it's one thing operating to an airport but a completely different thing operating from an airport as your hub. I think that traffic rights are a jealously guarded commodity at a government level.

Then there's the small issues such as infrastructure investment and branding and so on.

STP

[bekolblockage]

I'm no ATC expert

Me either, but they pay me. :}

Grab a copy of the MP2030 document. Guess it's on AA's website by now. It's all explained in there in the technical appendix including findings from the NATS airport capacity study. Basically, yes, dependent parallel ops, as you describe, would be possible but were found to give no additional benefit over segregated mode, given the terrain constraints on missed approach divergence from departure track etc.

[BillytheKid]

HK ATC are pu$$ie$! They could land way more airplanes if they would do simultaneous approaches to all four runways with LAHSO right in the middle of both runways!:}

[AGNES]

All were forcusing on the 3rd RWY but nobody mentioned about the mainland flow control.

If the mainland air traffic management does not improve, what is the point of building the 3rd RWY.

You may hope that the situation may be improved after 10 years. But the present situation has been lasting for more than 10 years and it is getting worse and worse, no improvemnt at all. The new RWY and apron may end up as the world's largest "waiting place".

In the past several days, the traffic to Beijing had been delayed for 2-3 hours on the ground aimlessly because of the flow control.

Because of the 3rd RWY, Hong Kong airspace needs to move further north that will infringe Zhuhai and Guangzhou airspace. Do we have the approval from the mainland on the airspace restructure before building the 3rd RWY? What about if they say no?

LAHSO is a very good idea indeed!:ok:

[boocs]

Agnes,

Your mention of Flow control is quite appropriate. Shanghai - ZSPD - appear to be constructing their 4th (yep 4th) runway, but from any 1 who flies there (esp from HKG), they need more airways on this route, not runways!!

b.

[troposcatter]

Indeed now, we could be using the PRM (Precision Rwy Monitor Approaches) if CAD put the equipment to use that was purchased for the opening of CLK. USDXXmillion. The fixed aerials are on top of the Back-up TWR/ATCX.
At the moment it's a mega 'white elephant' that is conveniently forgotten but still operating on a display in the ATCX. Expensive mistake?? Ask the 'Director of Accounting Services'!
Basically 'escan' with 'fast' update (+/- 2 seconds?) therefore exceeds radar update tolerances and is in use with specific laid down procedures in USA.
V12 C2 S7
28 Mar 2011 ... Air traffic control (ATC) provides an air traffic controller using special PRM .... An operative TCAS is not required for PRM operations. ...
fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/.../chapter%2002/12_002_007.htm - Cached

By 2020, ADS B and / or 'multi lateration' will hopefully permit sim-ops etc IF CAD has the vision etc. Plenty of 'lead time'.

More importantly lets improve the current movement rate!
"B Team" has done 68 - 70 movements in an hour already!!
When your CX... A330 did emergency evac late last year, x2 Canadians / TWR Pros, did 58 movements in one hour on one RWY 07R, to the amazement of all parties and the embarassment of CAD. Oops, we only can do 60 /hr! Letter of Commendation from DGCA, but x1 not renewed and the other is on thin ice!

However, it's back to staffing issues and excuses from the 4th floor all the way to HQ, as reflected in another PPRUNE thread / China Daily article.

Airport Authority and the Customer(s) have been 'hoodwinked'!

[troposcatter]

Check out this 'link'

Precision Runway Monitor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision_Runway_Monitor)

[Sqwak7700]

Just make it a VFR only procedure were you must maintain the other aircraft in sight at all times. Like in SFO, not a big deal really.

[tiger321]

S7700,

I hope that you are joking.

That means for 6 months of the year when you can't see your hand in front of your face the runway will be used as a parking apron!

[FR8R H8R]

The cargo ramp is pretty congested. This would work perfectly on those "less than sunny days" when the government recommends not leaving your flat. Just park on 07LL.