Qantas board split - Joyce to go?

[Gilligan69]

I'm hearing vague rumours that this might be happening - does anyone know any more?

I'm guessing that would mean Clifford going as well.

Gee - I hope it's all true!!!!!!!:ok:

[Shark Patrol]

Oh God! Please let it be true!!

These b*s are destroying our company! Show them the door and makes sure it hits them on the way out! :mad:

[Clipped]

Being a rumour network, I'll briefly indulge with that delightful thought.

May common sense prevail.

[fishers.ghost]

It can only be hoped that a few on the board have realized what is being done and do not want to go down a previously trodden path.
We live in hope!!!

[AWB_Clerk]

It would be nice if it was true. (Not holding my breath)

Perhaps the board should try taking these if not already doing so:

http://lifeinthefastlane.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/growacet-bp.jpg

AWBC

[1a sound asleep]

PLEASE I pray to the aviation God

[dragon man]

I believe that the board is split into 2 camps. Those that are worried about the trashing of the iconic brand and those that believe Jetstar is the future. A senior AIPA pilot has been talking to major shareholders and enlightening them to the airlines predicament. They are worried, in fact one was so concerned that earlier this year they reduced their shareholding substanially. The problem is that the board appointed AJ in the first place so if hes not reappointed then they have admitted that they were wrong in the first place and they should also go. Personally i would get rid of the lot of these clowns running the place. AJ three year contract runs out in November. I think hes going to roll the dice, beat the pilots and engineers gets a new contract otherwise goes down in flames and takes the airline with him.

[TBM-Legend]

what would a pilot know about running a business and "advising" investors...

Self interest more like it..

[another superlame]

Well if the board appointed him and now they feel like it was the wrong decision, then cut your losses and set him free. Do what is right for the company.

[ampclamp]

It will take a major calamity and backflip to let AJ go.
Does anyone think the board will do this? I would say absolutely no chance of them saying "we were wrong".
If he did go, it will be on health, family or personal reasons not matter what.
The board will not admit to mistakes.

[mcgrath50]

what would a pilot know about running a business and "advising" investors...

Self interest more like it..


Because AJ and all the consulting firms employed by QF are advising investors how well they are doing purely for the good of the company right?
:ugh:

[Short_Circuit]

Qantas board split - Joyce to go?
I'm hearing vague rumours that this might be happening - does anyone know any more?

and this mornings QAN share price rockets on the mumblings ..

[Keg]

I wonder if this is a bit like the 777 rumours that tend to go around QF every couple of years. More half story and wishful thinking than anything concrete.

As others have mentioned, if AJ goes, Clifford's place as Chairman would be virtually untenable. Given the cosy relationship with the aircraft leasing company of which Geoff Dixon is a major player that leases aircraft to J* I don't think we'll see anything soon.

Of course, I'd be absolutely delighted should the rumour turn out to be true- as long as we weren't out of the frying pan and into the fire.

[breakfastburrito]

what would a pilot know about running a business and "advising" investors..
Two things, the latest DFW debacle, pilots & flight planners have been telling anyone who would listen it simply wouldn't work. Did management listen - no, not until the reality began to sink in.

Second - it has been quite interesting to have QAN_Shareholder ask questions, I do not believe he is a management troll. I intend no disrespect to QAN, but frankly the depth of knowledge about the nitty gritty & nuances of the industry could only be described as superficial at best. He seems like a smart guy, but to understand this industry requires smarts and experience within it.

However, it doesn't change the fact that to gain a deep understanding of any business you need to understand it from the ground up, clearly even senior management don't understand the "boring" bits of day to day operations.

Pilots & engineering & flight planning appear to have little or no input into the planning decisions of the airline, and it is destroying (almost past tense) the business. Self interest, you bet. AJ & crew can leave the wreckage behind & move onto the next "challenge" in five star luxury, while the employees are left on the dole queue.

Would AIPA have told the shareholders that DFW was the right sector for the 744? I doubt it, but I'm sure AJ told the shareholders it would be a real money spinner - I'm sure commercial said it would be OK.

The fact is AJ is a salesman, telling the shareholders what he knows they want to hear, selling a story. The pilots, on the other hand tell shareholders the reality, it is in their long term vested interests - surprise surprise, just like the shareholders.

[The Green Goblin]

There are 10 x 777 orders on the Boeing website for an unidentified customer.

Sounds like the right airframe for Qantas Asia :rolleyes:

P.S Guess who will fill Joyces boots? Bruce Buchanon :eek:

[Gilligan69]

Would that be the same Bruce Buchanan chastised for fumbling with the underclothes of another passenger in first class LAX-SYD a while ago?

What a shallow pool of talent in senior Qantas Group management!!!

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: :ugh:

[assasin8]

Well, it's all they can do, because they'd never make it as a pilot or engineer!:ok:

[Hugh Gorgen]

As of Aug 2010, these were the substantial shareholders.

1. J P Morgan Nominees Australia 534,766,228 23.61
2. HSBC Custody Nominees (Australia) Limited 452,305,144 19.97
3. National Nominees Limited 376,628,160 16.63
4. Citicorp Nominees Pty Limited 225,458,109 9.95
5. ANZ Nominees Limited 65,690,854 2.90
6. Cogent Nominees Pty Limited 64,525,437 2.85
7. AMP Life Limited 33,248,291 1.47
8. Australian Reward Investment Alliance 21,516,040 0.95
9. Bond Street Custodians Limited 15,095,659 0.67
10. Queensland Investment Corporation 12,973,006 0.57

Another interesting snippet from the Annual Report.

Remuneration for the year ended 30 June 2010 – Non-Executive Directors
Short-Term Employee Benefi ts Post-Employment Benefi ts
$’000 Cash FAR
Non-Cash
Benefi ts Total
Superannuation
Travel Total Total1
Leigh Clifford 2010 $ 611,000
Chairman 2009 $ 613,000
Peter Cosgrove2,3 2010$ 252,000
Non-Executive Director 2009 $ 228,000
Patricia Cross 2010 $ 309,000
Non-Executive Director 2009 $ 266,000
Richard Goodmanson 2010 $ 280,000
Non-Executive Director 2009 $ 224,000
Garry Hounsell4 2010 $ 303,000
Non-Executive Director 2009 $ 317,000
Paul Rayner5 2010 $ 277,000
Non-Executive Director 2009 $ 230,000
John Schubert 2010 $ 254,000
Non-Executive Director 2009 $ 235,000
James Strong 2010 $ 231,000
Non-Executive Director 2009 $ 218,000
Barbara Ward6 2010 $ 235,000
Non-Executive Director 2009 $ 222,000
Total – Non-Executive Directors 2010 2,752,000
2009 2,553,000

[B772]

The shareholders must be getting nervous about the financial performance of QF for the last few years.

Morningstar advise the current total investment return as follows:
Over 1 Year -16.4%
Over 3 years -13.2% per year average
Over 5 Years -3.9% per year average
Over 10 years -0.5% per year average

Over the last 3.5 years the share price has dropped from $6.06 in October 2007 to a low of $1.38 in March 2009. They are currently finding support just over $2.00.

Since Clifford and Joyce have been at the helm the financial performance has been a disaster with long term investors sseing their returns wiped out. The index stocks show an average return of 9.1% per year average over 10 years. (BHP is 18.8% over 10 years)

History suggests the performance of a company is a reflection of its management. QF has been sadly lacking since Dixon was appointed.

[Cactusjack]

Since Clifford and Joyce have been at the helm the financial performance has been a disaster with long term investors sseing their returns wiped out. The index stocks show an average return of 9.1% per year average over 10 years.
Clifford must be close to bailing then, maybe 12 - 18 months ? He usually puts a cannon ball through anything he touches and then does a runner leaving a trail of destruction behind. (but not before pocketing quite a few million in the short term).
Tick tock......

[ANCDU]

As much as everyone would like it, Joyce won't be gone anytime soon. We all know exactly what will happen. In a few months time they will announce a $600 mill or whatever profit. Clifford will praise Joyce and his "team" :ugh: Joyce will praise his two airline strategy and say how J* is the only thing keeping the company afloat and how terrible the international part of qantas is performing, blame the unions for its performance and walk off with his bonus and hopefully go to the dentist!

What these people don't realise is that without the international arm of Qantas there would be no profitable FF scheme, no huge business network for domestic to on-load to, and nowhere to hide the cost of J*. Go on Allan, get rid of the international arm of Qantas, watch how quickly everything falls in a heap. :(

[the_company_spy]

ANCDU you have hit the nail on the head. Joyce will harp on about %return on capital and yes as a % mainline is low, but capex is massive. The more profitable parts of the group however rely on mainline for their very existence. Cut the apron strings and the rest becomes irrelevant.

[Capt Kremin]

Good points there ANCDU.

Joyce is quick to sprout that QF international is struggling but he doesn't say why. Those of us who have been around for a while would remember the early 90's where QF international was struggling, and the reasons are exactly the same and entirely unrelated to what the staff are paid.

Back then the world was emerging from the downturn caused by the first Gulf War and Qantas was re-equipping with many new 744's and 767's. The strain on the balance sheet was huge.

It is the same today. The world is still recovering from the GFC and QF has 20 A380's on order at total cost of $7 Billion which are being funded mainly out of cash flow.

Now the cost of re-equipment should all should be part of running an airline. Instead we see it used as a cyclical EBA related threat.

QF regards an 8% return as making back the cost of capital. That is not going to happen until the 7 billion dollar re-equipment phase is over. The institutions know this and this is why they are hanging on to a stock which at the moment is not a growth stock or making a decent dividend.

But in the mean time it is useful to blame the performance on the unions.

There are rumours going around however that things may change. The biggest one happening is that the A380 fleet order will be halved and the 744's will soldier on for the forseeable future. Whether this means that aircraft such as the 777 or the A350 are on the cards can only be speculated.

[KABOY]

There will always be an international arm of QF, probably a couple of 380's.

The rest of it will be lean and based somewhere else with Australian pilots flying it!

Might even be some ex QF pilots who are faced with redundancy or an opportunity to transfer within the group. Happened before and will happen again.

[Clipped]

A decade of management incompetence and inability to provide a strategic framework to counter the international assault has led to the demise of the company's market share.

A decade of Jetstar, Jetstar Asia have not succeeded.

An inept management and Board have been quick to blame the Sales Act, unions, foreign govts, unions, natural disasters, unions, 9/11, unions etc etc for their failings.

Can someone out there please help our airline and save us from these nitwits?

[Redstone]

There are rumours going around however that things may change. The biggest one happening is that the A380 fleet order will be halved and the 744's will soldier on for the forseeable future

Capt. Kremin, at the risk of seeming pedantic, Qantas is already operating "half of its A380 order" with two more to arrive late 2011 early 2012 (they are already well down the line) with another two in service 2013, so a rumour that the 380 fleet order will be halved I would suspect is just that, a rumour.

I think the 380 is here to stay.

The rest I agree with, spot on.

[Capt Kremin]

Thanks Redstone. You are correct about the current deliveries. My information comes from people involved in cabin crew recruitment who, according to the rumour, have been told that CC recruitment on the A380 will shortly stop and they should look at the 20 or so 744's being crewed for at least the next five years.

Rumour-in-confidence

[slim]

Ben Sandilands, aviation reporter and Plane Talking blogger, writes:
ALAN JOYCE, CATHAY PACIFIC, JETSTAR, LEIGH CLIFFORD, QANTAS

The pressure for change at the top of the Qantas group is building to levels where the chairman Leigh Clifford and the CEO Alan Joyce will be either be quickly removed or embroiled in a bitter struggle to retain control.

The pressure has little to do with union strike action, there hasn’t been any, nor the constant Qantas whingeing about competitors. These are just diversionary sideshows.

It is about two years without shareholder dividends, the bad mouthing of Qantas full-service, long-haul flights by the management team responsible for them, doubts about the real viability of Jetstar, and amateur hour stunts such as supposedly convenient flights to Dallas-Fort Worth that stuff business travellers into a second-rate cabin, leave them without luggage and clean clothes because of payload restrictions, and add hours to flights that could have been done via Los Angeles.

Qantas oneworld partner Cathay Pacific had a very quietly spoken message for Clifford and Joyce yesterday when its new CEO John Slosar was in town.

And that was, work in your space, not ours. Asked about Qantas’s get-out-of-jail plans to miraculously solve its inadequacies and the burden of being an Australian icon by setting up off-shore entities in Asia, Slosar referred to the issues with government and authority relationships and the need, in the obvious context of its own success in China, to nurture generations of relationship building to get where it wanted to be.

The Dallas debacle has made Qantas an object of mirth among other long-haul carriers because it involved using a jet that is patently incapable of flying the distance reliably non-stop in both directions from Australia with everyone’s luggage on board.

It is this contempt in Qantas for technical advice and customer expectations that has led it into errors in fleet and route planning from which there is no quick escape, as well as more fundamental safety-related errors. This was apparent in Alan Joyce’s time as the founding CEO of Jetstar when he was responsible for a decision to change the A320 approved flight manual procedure for a go-around, a mistake that saw one of its jets carrying about 140 people come close to crashing in fog at Melbourne airport in 2007, after which the carrier was found by the ATSB to have failed to keep traceable records or to have conducted a mandatory safety management system analysis before making changes it has not to this day explained to anyone.

Safety, however, may not be front of mind in investor perceptions. Declining market share, lack of dividends, and an inability to manage labour relations before they result in court approval of protected industrial action at a time chosen by the unions are all hallmarks of management failure.

Telling Australians that Qantas needs to be less Australian to be successful is not a winning message. Every Qantas management since the company was listed on the stock exchange in 1995 has emphasised the value of it brand, which is inextricably bound up with being Australian.

But the only new guidance for a market looking for prompt remedial action at Qantas has been a vague concession that a study into a new Asia-based carrier is under consideration with no further details to be announced before the end of the year.

Joyce and Clifford have weeks if not days to come up with answers, rather than year’s end.

[33 Disengage]

I don't know how much of it will come to pass, but it "warms the heart" to know that the media are starting to see what we have been seeing for a long time.

[TIMA9X]

The Dallas debacle has made Qantas an object of mirth among other long-haul carriers because it involved using a jet that is patently incapable of flying the distance reliably non-stop in both directions from Australia with everyone’s luggage on board.Says it all, this should be easy for the mainstream media to understand. Leigh Clifford and the CEO Alan Joyce, the days are numbered guys.... AIPA need to send a press release and get on air.
Qantas oneworld partner Cathay Pacific had a very quietly spoken message for Clifford and Joyce yesterdayReading between the lines, it is unusual that a partner finally says it, or even implies it.

[Mstr Caution]

Roll back to the Senate Inquiry on 25th Feb 2011.

Alan Joyce wasn't saying that Qantas International was in need of structural change, nor was he spruiking the need to set up a Qantas Asia.

When the Chair asked "How much do you have to reduce costs?"

Joyce replied, there was "no set target to reduce cost. We leverage as much as we can in efficiencies through new technology, and have always done for our entire history."

So no indication to offshore the workforce there!

Heffernan continued ".........at some point in time it must become a crisis to compete?". Heffernan was pointing out the difference in labour costs to those available in Asia. Again Joyce didn't indicate that Qantas International was in need of major structural change or a potential move offshore.

Quite the opposite, Joyce replied " I don't think so, because I think new technology is changing the industry all the time, and costs and efficiencies can be generated by having new ways of doing things". Joyce continued "It will change further as we introduce new aircraft like the 787 and the A380".

So what's the major crisis since February? Joyce told the Senate Inquiry that savings & efficiencies would come thru fuel efficient aircraft. No mention of the Asian Kangaroo?

So why is Qantas International in need of structural change? Joyce went on to say "It is NOT that we're not efficient or that we are bloated back in 1935"

So what is it Alan? Are we efficient like you told the Senators? Why the need to by-pass all you current, efficient, loyal employees to set up another airline overseas? And why not provide your efficient Australian based employees with some job security for a pay increase less than CPI?

MC

[Roller Merlin]

When news of a CEO/Board strategy split starts popping up in the media, that means it has been bubbling away for some time and certain decisions will be imminent.

Timing is everything.

We look forward to...
-June 10 - AFAP has Jetstar in Federal Court over dud contracts
-June 15 - Senate Enquiry report tabled
-From June.....Protected industrial actions TBA continuing
-1 Sep BB - the date until BB has frozen recruiting FOs on pilot contracts supposedly in response the email bombardment, but more likely due to the Fed Court action
-Final week of October - QF AGM

If the strategy is to continue wheeling out the spokesbod to deny and counter with spin, that will not cut it any more.

[the_company_spy]

Performance of the QF spokesmodel has been less than ordinary. That the media was going to wake from their stupor was only a matter of time. Systemic incompetence is entrenched in QF executive manage.

[Budfox]

When are Jetstar actually going to start paying for their own Aircraft and stop
gouging of the big sister ?
Do they pay their own fuel bills also ?
If they did that then it would put a big dent in the profit they report.
Reminds me of the Enron story about how year on year the company reported profits and never made a loss. Kind of like what AJ's calculator may be like at present :(
Cooking the books maybe ??
Open up the books for all to see, I smell a rat and its not the painted kind on the Aircrafts Tails.

[Qantas 787]

So Bruce Buchanan would the one to take over? No thanks, he would be a lot worse that Joyce.

What has Clifford actually done during his tenure? More questions should be asked about the board in general, they are the ones approving the major decisions. The board should go before the CEO does.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Who would we want on a new board though?

[the_company_spy]

Who would we want on a new board though?


Makes no difference from where I sit FedSec, we can't do any thing aout it, and either way the song remains the same.


Maintain the rage.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

About 10 years a bloke called Bill Taylor who I worked with told me that you could never change our union. I didn't believe him.

[the_company_spy]

I agree on one level Steve, however workers are the union, we are not the board. It is inherently adversarial, labour and capital or sould I say corporations and workers.

Things started to go pearshaped when "things" were allowed to own other "things"

But I digress, back on topic, you are quite correct, who would be best apointed to the board of Qantas if the encumbants are so deficient?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think in Germany workers have a voice on boards of companies, makes sense, we're all in it together.

[Mstr Caution]

Joyce should take a leaf out of the Cathay's CEO's "how to" handbook, focussing on the core brand, frequency of services, fuel efficient aircraft & not starting up a low cost carrier.

Cathay Pacific says it won't follow Singapore Airlines into budget operations | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/cathay-pacific-says-it-wont-follow-singapore-airlines-into-budget-operations/story-e6frg8zx-1226066769135)

But Joyce has Orange Fever. :ugh:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

No point changing the Board if a bunch of Wally's are going to step in and do the same. I assume we all want the airline to survive and then prosper, who could help that happen?

JB would be a no.

[the_company_spy]

JB would be a no.


Dixon sycophant?

[Mr. Hat]

Prediction:

This time next year Joyce will be gone.

BOOT.


He's the best Virgin employee by far. He should be on the payroll.

[the_company_spy]

Maybe he is, sure seems that way.

[ampclamp]

I do think many of the board are very likely highly qualified to be on the board.Some are clearly concerned with AJs direction.
What it needs are people with very strong operational & safety experience and someone whose heart is in customer relations not just weasel words about safety , brand and loyal customers.

Clearly nobody who knew better would have signed off on DFW.What a crock of poop that is turning out to be. So we dump SFO (highly desirable and close to LA) for DFW.Sure it links AA main base and a few biz types are likely pleased but it is plain stupid unless you fly in and out of where you came from be it SYD, MEL or BNE and in one reliable hop!!

For CEO I want a LEADER with a passion for aviation and can work on getting their people back onside. You can cut and cut and cut but without the employees on side you are stuffed.
Staff have lost respect for those at the top.It is over.Had the chance, no one is listening now.

[Fris B. Fairing]

What is needed is a CEO who can grasp the concept of doing the job properly.

Profit through mediocrity is failure.

[esreverlluf]

It would seem that particularly Mr Joyce has risen to his level of incompetence - The Peter Principle - Reaching Our Own Level of Incompetence | WHAKATE (http://www.whakate.com/lead-articles/the-peter-principle-reaching-our-own-level-of-incompetence/) - if not several levels above it. Let's get rid of the clown and his mates.:D:D

Well out of his depth and floundering even to stay afloat.

[73to91]

I assume we all want the airline to survive and then prosper, who could help that happen?
I remember being told that David Forsyth resigned from QF because he was simply fed up & pi55ed off with the direction that GD and MJ was taking the airline. Sounds like he may have too much integrity for the board as it currenty stands though.


Board of Directors - Airservices Australia (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aboutus/board.asp)