Are EOL's mandatory ?

[nellycopter]

Are engine off landings to the ground mandatory for a type rating and flight test ?
It is my machine I will be training on and take flight test !
Some people I have spoke to say tell the instructor/examiner you don't mind doing them so long as they agree to pay your insurance excess ! If it goes pete tong
Does anyone know the caa,s view on this ?
As for the sinicle sods who are going to say ring the caa, I will tomorrow but curious tonight !!!!

[g0lfer]

No they are not mandatory.

[nellycopter]

Can I ask, or insist that I don't want to do them in my machine to the instructor and caa examiner ?

[Hughes500]

No they are not but I would seriously consider your instructor/ examiners ability if he cant / wont !

[Hughes500]

2.6.1 Autorotative landing or power recovery

This is taken from SRG 1174 page 3 - the bit us examiners have to tick ( each section

Have fun, better to know you can do it than to always be unsure, EOL's are easy !

[nellycopter]

That's not what's in question,
I have flow my r44 for six years and for the past five the few different caa examiners only wanted me to demonstrate that I could get the aircraft close enough to the ground and then recover, !
I am just about to do a type rating onto the 120 in my own machine, and don't really want to be the one that 'went wrong' was just wondering if it would be ok for me to ask / request that we dont do them to the ground ?

[nellycopter]

Well so far we don't have an examiner anyway!
So if there is an examiner down red hill way Tuesday or Wednesday with time to spare for a few gold coins, the please get in touch !
It would be nice to come home with the full type rating and not just a course certificate !

Any help appreciated

Nelly

[nellycopter]

Sorry didn't mention EC 120 examiner !

[TiPwEiGhT]

Ask Alan Boswell if he is still on the EC120, he used to be a TRE for us.

TiP

[puntosaurus]

See here (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/1_2005_H.pdf). Happy to help out if you pm.

[topendtorque]

Probably not mandatory at all. Even when the drive train poos itself or the belts fly off or the engine quits or whatever that requires to land without power and you don't need to read far in these columns to see plenty of examples of required EOL's in both turbine or pistons.

Even twins run out of fuel or have gearboxes that seize or other problems.

The thing is the choice is yours, lower the collective and enter autorotative flight, if you have been trained to get that far and i've seen a few that haven't that tried to kill me right there.

In fact one over here in OZ recently dropped onto the ground a bit hard trying to fly without engine, killed himself.

Just remember if you haven't learnt how to do any of the above and you decide to do a lawn dart into a school, then everyone else will have to argue as to why you didn't reach the nuclear power station with the thick concrete walls to crash into or whatever.

Your widow will have to pay for the damage to the power station or the school and - we will still have to argue with someone about it - and someone will have to go clean up the mess, blood and guts everywhere and that's a blasted nuisance, wasting our good time talking to the cops all that, yessir a real blasted nuisance.

Remember when the belts fly off or the sprag lets go and the engine goes ballistic and you're sitting there fat dumb and happy trying to figure out what the noise is, there just will not be an instruictor - I should say a ****** instructor - sitting there saying auto-rotation - ready - 1 - 2 - 3 - go, or select the lever down in your own time or some other such dribble.

So yep the choice is yours, get an instructor to snap the throttle on you regardless of the type and belt it into you, with a big stick if necessary, an automatic and safe procedure, learn how do the whole bit including the touchdown or, please don't crash in my backyard.

I'm sick of all the arguing.
cheers tet.

[Arrrj]

TET,

Could not agree more with your comments. :D

I'm an Aussie R44 flyer (my machine) and recently completed an endorsement on a turbine. My (a well known good guy in Sydney) instructor and I did a lot of autos either to the ground or very close to it, until I was happy that I could do it when (ok, if) the noise stops ! 30-40 autos in all sorts of different conditions. a) it's fun and b) why wouldn't you want to prepare for that sort of problem ?

PS - to nellycopter - I trained in my R44 RII (new) and did a million (ok, maybe less) autos...and I did not worry about the machine, I worried about ME !

Have fun !

Arrrj :ok:

[Pandalet]

Guys,

I suspect this may be highlighting a difference in training between the UK and Oz. Nellycopter isn't asking whether he can get away without doing any autos, he's asking whether he has to do them all the way to the ground, ie. can he auto down to within (say) 10 feet, doing (what's known here as) a flare and power recovery, or does he need to complete the auto right down to the run on landing, sans engine. He's not trying to weasel out of doing autos.

My guess is that having spent a big handful of wonga on a shiny new paraffin budgie, and fearing the statistic that many machines are pranged on full-down autos, he doesn't entirely trust the examiner/instructor to rescue the machine if he fluffs the landing at the end.

Let the debate on whether an auto to flare and power recovery instead of a run-on landing constitutes a 'proper' auto, commence! With plenty of "when I was young..."! :ok:

[ShyTorque]

When I was young? Well, our basic course (Whirlwind 10) syllabus required us to complete a solo "engine offs" sortie , after about 40 hours TT on rotary wing.

Once the flight idle stop switch was selected to "ground" and the throttle on the Gnome turbine was closed, there was no powered recovery to a hover available, in fact the regulations prohibited it.

Might have been less hours than that, I'm not sure what the exercise numbers in my first logbook mean now. I blame the passage of time (well, it was 32 years ago). "Teeteringhead" might remember.

As far as I know, a student never bent one whilst flying solo EOLs.

[Shackman]

For my solo EOLs it came on the run up to FHT (1976) after some 75 hrs Whirlwind time - I was obviously much slower off the mark, and I didn't mark the exercise numbers down either! However, the confidence it gave you as a student was immense (and probably quite misguided); I do however still think they are the best exercise to practice - and I have had to use it for real, albeit in a twin engine machine.

[John R81]

I fly both R44 and EC 120. I like autos to the ground, and find it easier with the Eurocopter - more stored energy in that heavier head.

The issue is with recoverability if things are not perfect. With the R44 you can snap the throttle open fairly late on and bring the engine in in time to convert a ground attempt to a power recovery. Can't snap open the Eurocopter throttle. Well...... You can if you don't mind the bill for the over-torque. You need time to feed the throttle back in.

So it is more a case of being certain that you have it right before closing the throttle on the EC 120 because you may not be able to use the engine to recover.

[theaceofblades]

The examiner I use for type ratings told me that the CAA require an auto to the ground on the type test, but because the people doing the type test generally only have 5 hours or thereabouts in the machines he gets them to receover the auto at a sensible height, whilst he brings the power back in and then do a powered landing.

In his words, if the CAA were watching they'd think it was an auto to the ground.

He does EC-120 type tests, PM me if you want his details.

Cheers

Ace

[EN48]

No they are not mandatory.


Not mandatory in the U.S. except for the CFI checkride. However, having studied and experienced both sides of the argument, I assert that full down practice autos are mandatory (not in the regulatory sense) in order to become a skilled helicopter pilot. The question then becomes, "In whose helicopter?" My insurance prohibits full down practice autos (with or without an instructor) in my B407, and I am happy that this is the case. However, I have the opportunity to do recurrent training at Bell Training Academy on a regular basis, and there, virtually every auto is to a touchdown (in their helicopter). In the course of 5-6 hours of flying, one is able to do 30-50 touchdown autos under the supervision of instructors who are each doing 3000-5000 of these annually. This concentrated experience makes for rapid progress in improving auto skills. I am strongly in favor, just not in my helicopter! :E

[Peter-RB]

Nelly,
make sure the fuel thingy is sorted out, you dont want the donk to conk just when you need it to deliver.

EOLs are far better to be practised as regualr as you can, for if not one day the world of beating and clattering will go really quiet, then what !!

Peter R-B
VfrpilotPB

[puntosaurus]

The trainingcom I posted earlier has chapter and verse for the requirements in the UK, and it's pretty black and white. The only way you can avoid doing one on the type rating test is if the conditions are not suitable. Even then they must be taught on the course.

Rod Wood at Cabair Elstree has a technique where he shuts the throttle in the flare, once he's convinced that a run on is going to work. I've tried it a couple of times and it seems to work.

[topendtorque]

Only too happy to pay great deference to those who teach EOL's day in day out at the ab-initio stage. I note also the other thread below on touchdown autos for reference which might or might not be joined with this one.

My real beef at this stage is not the techniques for autorotational flight or the completion of either touchdown or power recovery or whatever, it is a problem that I am coming across which makes any discussion on autos totally superfluous until attended to.

It is that students are often not taught how to quickly and safely establish safe autorotational flight after a power cut.

Think about that for a second, right any longer an' for f'n dead, got it?

Students I have sprung are those who have had up to even several hundred hours operational training after their ab-initio tuition, where this is supposed to be ingrained.

I know it was with me before I went solo, I well remember the bash to the head and the labelling - "stupid moronic peasant get the f'n stick down or we'll all gonna f'n die". Yeah well, ex british army instructor, bless his soul.

I didn't need to be told twice I can tell you. But these days it seems they aren't told or more to the point, taught at all.

How is that going to be fixed?

I just don't like going down to less than 85% in an R22, sorting these pricks out.

Like a young dog, as far as learning goes, at the early stages is where these things are best taught and remembered.

It might also be mighty handy for them too, or they will never be lucky enough to meet people like me.
tet

[birrddog]

It might also be mighty handy for them too, or they will never be lucky enough to meet people like me.
tet

Sadly there are not enough "people like you" who train. I have been fortunate to train with some very experienced instructors (11k,13k,19k+ hrs, etc.) who have taught me more in 30min than 15hrs with 'an appy*'. You learn faster, learn more and retain more.

I do my time with "appy's" as needed for what it's needed, though make sure, like EN48, I do "regular" time with my more experienced instructors/friends; in his case the Bell Academy.

Sadly a lot of schools who for what ever reason don't do 'the more advanced training' due to low experienced instructors or insurance policies, don't have a chief / senior instructor who can do the more advanced work, like showing you the machine in situations you would not normally encounter, push examples (confined areas, LTE, stuck pedal landings, etc.) and do procedures like full down EOL's to a spot (not just run on).

A sad mixture of economics and apathy, and often left to the student to figure out for themselves that although they got their ticket, they need to seek out more advanced training, privately or through the company they work for.

This is certainly an activity that demands constant and consistent training, whether private or commercial.

*appy - (apprentice) low time flight instructors building hours
** no disrespect to low time flight instructors - they are learning too...

[puntosaurus]

PS. Nellycopter, if you're worried about bending your own machine, use a school machine. It'll not cost you much more than using your own machine, and the risk is all someone else's.