Falcon 7X Suspension of Flight Ops

[TATprobe]

I have just heard that the Falcon 7X bizjet has been grounded due to a pitch trim runaway somewhere in Malaysia. Anyone have any more information?

[Malc]

The AD is here:

EASA Airworthiness Directives Publishing Tool (http://ad.easa.europa.eu/ad/2011-0102-E)

AD 2011-0102-E

[VeeAny]

Not my area of expertise but I thought worthy of mentioning in case anyone misses it.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/easa_ad_2011_0102_E.pdf

If I read it correctly from 27 May 2011 on a temporary basis all Falcon X aeroplanes are grounded.

[AN2 Driver]

just saw it too. Um, quite unheard of?

http://www.bazl.admin.ch/fachleute/lufttechnik/entwicklung/01582/index.html?lang=de&download=NHzLpZeg7t,lnp6I0NTU042l2Z6ln1acy4Zn4Z2qZpnO2Yuq2Z6 gpJCDe35_g2ym162epYbg2c_JjKbNoKSn6A--.pdf

[atakacs]

wow ! That's BAD...

[audioaviator]

Ouch! That's going to hurt a lot of operators... not exactly what the biz jet op market needs at the moment... Nor Dassault. :ouch:
Well done the crew getting it down.

[GRODEZ]

Thanks a lot!!

[AN2 Driver]

Any idea when this happened and which ac was involved?

[Brian Abraham]

Some unconfirmed reports have the incident taking place in Malaysia. No mention of aircrafts nationality.

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

If the AD wording is accurate, then I am impressed by the forthrightness of Dassault management in taking the somewhat courageous step of recommending that their flagship product be grounded; I wonder how many other managements in our industry, whether OEM, operator or anything else, would be as willing to take the flak to do the right thing?

[HS125]

This is in some ways reminiscent of the Stab Actuator problems of the Learjet 45 resulting in a similar AD, circa 2003.

IIRC, the actuator was made by a contractor who had made unauthorised modifications.

Hopefully there will be a quick resolution.

[Miles Magister]

Although my comment is not directly related to this incident;

On the advice of people older and wiser than myself (including flight engineers), on all the aircraft I have flown or managed I put a collar on the elevator trim circuit breaker so it could be located and pulled quickly if required. This act is triggered by the number of aircraft trim runaways that have historically occurred and the number of business jets where this has caused the loss of the airframe.

Whilst the occurrences are not common they do happen.

Well done to the crew for recovering from what can be a difficult problem to handle.

MM

[FlyMD]

...You're gonna have a hard time putting a collar on that CB in the 7x...

[CaptainProp]

Yes, it was in Malaysia. Aircraft involved HB-XXX.

[FalconFlyr]

Mad (Flt) Scientist....that's what I love about Dassault they are are really good company and stand head and shoulders above the other OEMs :D

...having said that I'm surprised that this has happened...I would have thought the system in question was broadly the same kit as would be found on any of the other big falcons so it would be a surprise if this was a duff bit of design...

Apparently it was going into KL as a previous poster indicated...

FF

[9M_JON]

It was going into SZB at 0408 local time and understood emergency was declared. Probably it's not a unique incident to this particular 7x thus Dassault reacted accordingly.Also, the French Air Force has one that flies the President!

[JamesT73J]

Well, they should be applauded for prompt and correct action. Brilliant to see a manufacturer taking an positive safety-first attitude.

[fractional]

The Russians also have at least one (Presidential).:ouch:

[kid pilot]

Anybody have any idea how to get some data on fleet grounding periods (perhaps an average) for similar AD's?

[FrankR]

You guys are killing me!

First, Dassault has the WORST customer service and product support of any manufacturer. This is confirmed every single year by the AIN survey. If you don't believe me, Google "AIN 2010 product support survey"

Second, you don't really believe that the EASA gave them any choice in the grounding do you? The aircraft was uncontrolable in flight, think about it!

Third, I would bet that since they have the FDR, there is a lot of information that they are not releasing.

... But you can think whatever you want.

FR

[LGW Vulture]

Have to agree on the amount of Dassault "pat on the back" comments here - its distasteful, everyone knows you should be honoured to fly one of their jets!

Appalling arrogance at Dassault which might now subside somewhat with a flagship product grounded. We can all hope. :ugh:

[terryb99]

US FAA has already issued an emergency AD to stop use of all Falcon 7X;

Emergency AD: Dassault Aviation Model FALCON 7X airplanes (http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/0/0C2CC9C83D76AFDC8625789D00733583?OpenDocument&Highlight=2011-12-51)

[atakacs]

Yes, it was in Malaysia. Aircraft involved HB-XXX.

As far as I can tell there no such aircraft among the 10 7X registered in Switzerland...

[Zeffy]

Second, you don't really believe that the EASA gave them any choice in the grounding do you? The aircraft was uncontrolable in flight, think about it!


You don't know what you are talking about.

Dassault requested EASA/FAA to issue the AD.

[LadyGrey]

You don't know what you are talking about.

Dassault requested EASA/FAA to issue the AD.

Yes!

First, Dassault has the WORST customer service and product support of any manufacturer.

Appalling arrogance at Dassault

What a load of BS:yuk:

LG

[FrankR]

Hey Zeffy, here's a copy and paste regarding the process for AD issuance. It's the same language found at most all FAA/EASA member sites. It says that the government makes the determination...
When is an AD issued?

The FAA issues an AD addressing a product when we find that:

An unsafe condition exists in a product; and,
The condition is likely to exist or develop in other products of the same type design.

Airworthiness Directive - Issuance and Publication (http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/continued_operation/ad/issue_pub/)

Second, Were you there when Dassault discussed this "request" with the EASA? I sorta doubt it. So I doubt you know what you're talking about.

Third, Does a manufacturer EVER tell the FAA/EAASA what to do? (or is it always the Feds telling them/us what to do?)

Fourth, here's a link to the wall street journal article. It spells it out clearly.
UPDATE: EASA Grounds All Dassault Falcon 7X Executive Jets - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20110526-716226.html)

Now, the article does say it was issued at the "request" of Dassault. This reminds me of a time when I heard a student pilot announce that he was low on fuel 30 miles out over a large bay. The controller asked if he wanted to declare an emergency, the student said "no", and without a pause, the controller said "OK, I'll declare one for you"

So once again, do you really think that there was an option here? Could Dassault say "screw you guys" when faced with such a catastrophic system failure?

I will say that Dassault did the right thing. When faced with a situation where there would no doubt be an AD issued by EASA, they took the high ground, acted virtuous, and demanded the AD be issued.

It's the tactic we should all do when faced with "Write down this number, and call us after you land"

FR

[flydive1]

@Atakacs

As far as I can tell there no such aircraft among the 10 7X registered in Switzerland... And there can't be as X is usually reserved for helicopters. I suspect that Captainprop put the Xs in not say that it was Swiss registered without revealing all detail about it.

@FrankR

Second, Were you there when Dassault discussed this "request" with the EASA? I sorta doubt it. So I doubt you know what you're talking about.

Third, Does a manufacturer EVER tell the FAA/EAASA what to do? (or is it always the Feds telling them/us what to do?)

According to the EASA AD, that is what happened

To address this potential unsafe condition, Dassault Aviation has proposed to
EASA to prohibit, from the effective date of this AD, any flight operations of Falcon
7X aeroplanes, to which EASA agrees by issuing this AD.

[LadyGrey]

You guys are killing me!

First, Dassault has the WORST customer service and product support of any manufacturer. This is confirmed every single year by the AIN survey. If you don't believe me, Google "AIN 2010 product support survey"


Frank, no, you are ( at least ) killing me:ugh:

http://www.ainonline.com/fileadmin/template/main/pdfs/AIN_2010_Product_Support_Survey.pdf

Very interesting read!

Continued weakness in the business aviation market appears to
be reflected in a low response rate to the 2010 AIN Product Support
Survey. This year’s survey invited 17,284 AIN readers to participate
but only 921 completed the survey, for a return rate of 5.3 percent.
Previous participation levels were 12 percent in 2009, 10.28 for 2008
and 10 percent in 2007. According to Forecast International of Newtown,
Conn., which helped design and administer the survey with
AIN, “While this response is a valid basis for determining subscriber
opinion, the decrease in participation is discouraging and appears to
be a cumulative, strong result of the poor condition of the business
aviation community over the past few years.”

921 completed the survey, so many......:*

According to this "so called survey", the GLEX guys/gals here won´t be very happy, eh?

I can assure you, that the Dassault Service is Excellent!

As far as I can tell there no such aircraft among the 10 7X registered in Switzerland...

And there can't be as X is usually reserved for helicopters. I suspect that Captainprop put the Xs in not say that it was Swiss registered without revealing all detail about it.

Read BAZL, there are 10 HB-....registered 7X`s

LG

[flydive1]

Read BAZL, there are 10 HB-....registered 7X`s

I know there are 7x in the Swiss registry, just not HB-X....., as X is for helicopters.
That's what I was trying to say, but was not clear enough

[9M_JON]

Yes, it's HB registered but not HB-X..., he was just trying to be discreet with the XXX.

[CaptainProp]

9M_JON - Spot on. Good to see that someone did not only get out of bed this morning, but actually woke up. :ok: In fact the registration is HB-XYZ :p:}

It is not official information yet so I will not post it here.

CP

[His dudeness]

Can´t vouch for the support of Dassault (other than that I once walked onto their holy ground in LBG, wearing full uniform, in my function as chief pilot of a DAX company and requested information on Falcon 2000/900 ldg/t/o performance and no-one was interested or did bother to contact me after leaving my business card there), but I know that for the 14 years I flew KingAir B200s commercially - one of with was bought 1 year old from Beechcraft - I never saw or heared anything from a Beech representative.
Yet they are rated number1 for new tp´s doesn´t mean anything as the only other contender would be Avanti....for older TP´s they are even beaten by Mitsubishi...!
We bought a used CJ2 from a dealer in Germany and the very next day I was contacted by their techrep in Germany.

Sorry for the tread drift.

[mccahey]

All the Swiss reg 7X's are HB-J??.:ok:

[flydive1]

9M_JON - Spot on. Good to see that someone did not only get out of bed this morning, but actually woke up. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

someone woke up a bit earlier;)

[FLEXJET]

Interesting, not all 7Xs are grounded. Yesterday at least 3 Bermudan-registered and even one EASA-registered were flying within Eurocontrol airspace.
What EASA publishes is one thing, but Eurocontrol let these birds fly anyway. Go figure :ugh:

[fokkerjet]

ferry permit?

[FL480]

I would say even 2 FA7X registered in EU were flying that day !

[FLEXJET]

FL480, absolutely yes but you know the military is sitting above EASA and it was only for protocol number 14 :oh:

[pgo]

010010110001100001010011
Hope they get it sorted soon, currently SZB is overrun by the French.

[Shell Management]

There is no such thing as an EASA regsitered aircraft.:=

[helojetflyer]

While pulling the trim cb WAS a good idea in the past, doing so in this aircraft would be my absolute last resort (and no collar would be necessary, as they are all virtual CBs, many of which are grayed out, not allowing the pilot to mess with them)!!! There are numerous switches and computer coding that can really ruin your day when you stumble across them unexpectedly. These new flying computers do not lend themselves to pilot techniques of old - be careful! Follow the established procedures in exactly the correct order, or you will find you have become a test pilot and have probably created a handful of additional problems for yourself.

[J-R]

The pitch runaway problem has not yet been resolved however Dassault has provided the following information regarding the May 25th incident and how they’re dealing with the problem. While descending through 12,000 feet at 300 kias, the incident aircraft experienced an uncommanded pitch up and climbed to 23,000 feet. At that point, the crew was able to regain control and declared an emergency. A normal landing followed at its destination airport in Malaysia.

Dassault has advised that all appropriate resources have been diverted from their normal duties to focus solely on finding this event’s cause and deploying a solution. They have a team of engineers from their flight test centre and design office and a customer service team on-site with the incident aircraft. Additionally, an engineering response team has been created and is on duty 24/7 to collect and analyse the aircraft’s data.

Dassault cannot give an accurate estimate on when the fleet will return to service.

Dassault is in the process of defining a procedure intended to allow the conduct a safe ferry flight to a convenient destination of the operator's choice. This procedure is being tested but not yet validated. Dassault's target is to have it approved early in the week.

[FrankR]

This is interesting to visualize. If you're descending, the power is usually at or near idle. To pitch up and gain 11,000 Ft seems unprecedented.

Any comments from 7x pilots? Anything special about the auto throttles, AP disconnect, pitch trim, elevator control, or anything about the fly-by-wire that could cause this?

As a G550 pilot, I'm hoping I can get Gulfstream to issue an ASC to install cables and pulleys in my new G650!

FR

[Artistic Intention]

"Also, the French Air Force has one that flies the President!"

Two of the Republique Francaise ones parked up at Deauville yesterday, I assumed they were left over from the G8 summit.

Two Russian ones there as well.

[9M_JON]

Nigeria’s new N7bn presidential jet banned worldwide
By Agency reporter

Saturday, 28 May 2011


Almost 70 days after the new N7.65bn presidential jet, Falcon 7X, touched down at the Nnamdi Azikiwe International Airport, Abuja, from the manufacturer’s factory in France, Dassault Aviation, France European authorities have banned the jet from flying in Europe and other parts of the world over safety issues.

The ban, an Emergency Airworthiness Directive, which was issued on Thursday by the European Aviation Safety Agency, the agency that regulates Dassault as well as the European aviation industry, took immediate effect, starting from May 27.

The EASA’s grounding of the worldwide fleet of Dassault’s Falcon 7X executive jets came hours after one of the aircraft encountered an in-flight anomaly that could have caused the pilots to lose control.

The EASA directive, which was published on Thursday, said that the jet “experienced an uncontrolled pitch trim runaway during descent. The crew succeeded in recovering a stable situation and performed an uneventful landing.”

An analysis of the plane’s Digital Flight Data Recorder and Fault History Database confirmed the event, EASA said, but the cause of the pitch trim runaway couldn’t be explained.

“This condition, if it occurs again, could lead to the loss of control of the aeroplane,” the EASA notice said.

However, the Cologne, Germany-based safety agency said in its Emergency Airworthiness Directive that the decision to halt all flight operations of Dassault’s flagship jet came at the request of the Paris-based company, according to a Dow Jones report on Friday.

The plane was en route between Europe and Malaysia, Asia, with no passengers on board, Dassault spokesman Stephane Fort told Dow Jones Newswires by telephone.

The pilots managed to regain control of the aircraft and landed it safely in Malaysia, he said. Fort couldn’t say who owns the aircraft or who was operating it.

Fort said the decision to ground the aircraft was a precautionary measure.

Dassault has sent a team of technicians to Malaysia to try to identify the cause of the problem, he said, adding, “Our priority is the safety of our passengers and our aircraft.

The Falcon 7X was introduced in 2007 and is designed to fly 5,950 nautical miles with at least eight passengers. There are 112 of the aircraft in service.

“This airworthiness directive is considered to be an interim measure pending the outcome of the investigation currently carried out by the manufacturer,” EASA said.

The Falcon 7X has a sticker price of about $50m, depending on cabin features.

President Goodluck Jonathan had in the third week of March 2011, taken delivery of a Falcon 7X plane, shortly after it landed on the shores of the country from France.

The aircraft, which was manufactured by Dassault Aviation of France, cost the government $51m (about N7.65bn.)

The Federal Executive Council had on August 12, 2010 approved $102m for the purchase of two Falcon 7X and $53.3m for one Gulfstream G550 aircraft to beef up the presidential fleet.

The second Falcon 7X, it was learnt then, was expected to arrive in the country during the second quarter of this year.

In what is probably its first mission, the jet was said to have conveyed the wife of the President, Patience, to Sokoto during the third of week of March.

The two Falcon 7X aircraft are to be supplied by Messrs Dassault Aviation of France, while the Gulfstream G550 will come from Messrs Gulfstream Aerospace Corporation of the United States

(Interesting how the reporter used the word ban instead of grounded):ok:

[SEIFR]

Is this a Dassault problem or a Honeywell problem?

[Zeffy]

The F7X FBW system not Honeywell's.

[SEIFR]

Dassault Falcon Aircraft / Aircraft / Our Aircraft / Falcon 7X / Avionics (http://www.dassaultfalcon.com/aircraft/7x/avionics.jsp)

[Zeffy]

Dassault Falcon Aircraft / Aircraft / Our Aircraft / Falcon 7X / Avionics

Right.

The EASy avionics are primarily Honeywell EPIC.

FBW flight controls are not.

[SEIFR]

Okay...but I think you may be 'splitting hairs'.

[Zeffy]

It might seem that way.

Systems are highly integrated.

But Honeywell had nothing to do with the design, development and mfg of the flight control systems themselves.

Digital Flight Control System (http://tv.dassault-aviation.com/web/c-2/v-81/digital_flight_control_system.html)

[SEIFR]

Right. Does anything happen in that machine without the Honeywell systems knowing about it and or having something to say about it?
...no joy on the DFC link

[Zeffy]

try "reload" -- just worked for me.

[bizjets101]

Figures - the incident aircraft is the last Falcon 7X that was delivered - the aircraft is operated by Jet-Link AG Switzerland registered HB-JLN it is operated on behalf of Wallenmount Ltd of Hong Kong - which is actually owned by Tan Sri AK I possibly of Kuala Lumpur??

Actually came across a lawsuit filed in New York regarding this owner and aircraft against Dassault - no idea what that is about; Wallenmount Limited v. Dassault Falcon Jet Corp. :: Justia Dockets & Filings (http://dockets.justia.com/docket/new-york/nysdce/1:2011cv01305/375673/)

Photo of aircraft landing at Kuala Lumpur;
http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab20/bizjets101/FA7XHB-JFN116.jpg
photo by S.M. Tang of Kuala Lumpur/and Malaysia Wings

MalaysianWings - Malaysia's Premier Aviation Portal (http://www.malaysianwings.net/forum/index.php?)

[FrankR]

A 7x owner files a lawsuit? Is this an example of fine Dassault customer service a few of you were talking about?

Yet another indication as to why Dassault has been at the bottom of the list every single year for the past ten years when it comes to customer satisfaction.

FR

[CaptainProp]

Correct names mentioned or not, it really does not help anybody to mention names involved in these kind of things... That goes for pilots and/or owners names involved in incidents, accidents etc.

Do you guys, assuming you are actually flying corporate jets, normally speak about owners names with complete strangers? That would be a fast track to getting the boot in most companies I know of....

CP

[NuName]

Being as there is no indication of what the lawsuit might be about, and there is probably no airframer out there that has not had many over the years, its totally irrelevant that one has been filed against Dassault.

[bennyfloydd]

We never mention the names in public...:=

...but we're always, ALWAYS curious about who the operators may be.:cool:

[Victorian Dad]

Its a Great Shame this has happened its a fantastic machine was at Bordeaux and lots of 7X arriving last week as if they knew they were about to be grounded.
They will fix it for sure, just may take some time :)

[LadyGrey]

01 JUN 2011
June 1 Falcon 7X Update: EASA and FAA Approve Ferry Procedure


On Monday, the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) issued a Flight Condition Approval Sheet (FCAS) which outlines procedures to conduct ferry flights on the Falcon 7X for European registered aircraft. The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) issued a similar approval on Tuesday, an Alternative Method of Compliance (AMOC), to authorize ferry flights for U.S. registered aircraft.


Dassault's investigation has confirmed that the Falcon 7X control laws operated normally which has allowed development of a safe ferry procedure using Digital Flight Control System (DFCS) normal mode. The on-site investigation of the aircraft that experienced the anomaly is complete but did not reveal the root cause. Further analysis of the trim control equipment from that aircraft is underway at Dassault Aviation’s laboratories in France.



Safely back home:ok:


LG

[mutt]

The on-site investigation of the aircraft that experienced the anomaly is complete but did not reveal the root cause Ferry flight approval is one thing, but if they cant find the route of the problem, how can they fix it ?

With 112 aircraft delivered at about $40m each, that's an extremely expensive amount of metal to be sitting around...... When does the manufacturer have to start reimbursing the owners for lost revenue and external charter expenses?

Mutt

[LGW Vulture]

Mutt - I think like my Client, Saudia Private Aviation had many delays on their aircraft due to Jet's mistakes in Basel. Given this new occurrence, the Saudis must be well p****d off at matters at this moment in time - true?

[magickingdomgirl]

anyone know if dubai reg a/c have got the ferry flight permission yet?

[J-R]

Dassault has provided preliminary details of modifications that will allow crews to deselect auto pitch trim and introduces a new surveillance system to detect and stop pitch trim runaways.

These modifications are being tested but still require EASA approval. Dassault has said that a best case scenario may see the first aircraft modified by mid June however, an end of June return to normal operations is more realistic.

the proposed modifications do not address the cause of the Malaysian incident but will limit the adverse of a pitch trim runaway to the extent that the current weight/altitude/speed restrictions will be removed.

[bizjets101]

Rabbit Air AG (Swiss) flying KTEB - LFSB HB-JGI

FlightAware > Rabbit-air Ag, Zurich #100 Flight Tracker (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/RBB100)

http://4.bp.********.com/_ntmC4gow1j4/S_q3h-Lg7HI/AAAAAAAABOE/lzAypGuNm0w/s1600/Rabbit+Air+-+Falcon+7X+-+HB-JGI+-+6780+NET.jpg

[9M_JON]

Said aircraft departed this morning at 0715 local time back to France for further investigation. Flown by test pilots sans pax.Should be landing soon, hopefully.

[flydive1]

Should be landing soon, hopefully.

Come on now, the 7x has been flying for 4 years now with no major problems.

Now it seems that every flight is at risk of crash:rolleyes:

[9M_JON]

"Come on now, the 7x has been flying for 4 years now with no major problems.
Now it seems that every flight is at risk of crash"

You'll be singing a different tune if you were flying the affected aircraft. If it was never a threat to safety,do you think Dassault would request the EAD?

"This condition, if occurring again, could lead to loss of control of the aeroplane"

[flydive1]

You'll be singing a different tune if you were flying the affected aircraft. If it was never a threat to safety,do you think Dassault would request the EAD?

"This condition, if occurring again, could lead to loss of control of the aeroplane"I would be singing exactly the same tune.

Yes there is a problem and Dassault is working on solving, and they asked to ground the aircraft till they solve it.
But is not that the 7x suddenly became a killer aircraft.

We are talking about a ferry flight, with the pilots aware of the fact that they have to keep an extra eye to what the aircraft is doing. The problem with the aircraft in Malaysia is that what happened, happened suddenly, unexpected, and this can lead to loss of control on any aircraft(and it did happen)

If you are ferrying an aircraft that you know that a similar problem could happen you would be extra careful and watching the trim closely.
No need to put your soul in the hands of your god and say your prayers that hopefully everything goes well.

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

@flydive1

That assumes, however, that there is a means available of mitigating the risk or the consequences. Just knowing it could happen and being ready doesn't help much if, for example, there isn't enough elevator authority to counter a full stab runaway, and you don't have a reliable means of turning the stab off. The fact that they are allowing ferries presumably means that some mitigation has been defined, perhaps with specific procedures or limitations.

[flydive1]

Of course.
I do not know the Falcon 7x specifically, but other aircraft I flown have a trim disconnect switch, I would be surprised if the 7x did not have one.

Of course if you are in normal operations, quite relaxed, descending on autopilot, a trim runaway can go a long way before you are able to react to it.
Is different if you are watching it because it might happen.

And since Dassault grounded the aircraft because of the problem, I do not think they would allow ferry flight lightly(hey, it's only pilots on board;)). If they believed that the aircraft could kill you at any time they would not allow any flight. And I'm also pretty sure that they issued restrictions and procedures for the flight to be conducted safely.

Personally I would have absolutely no problems to ferry such aircraft.

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

Of course.
I do not know the Falcon 7x specifically, but other aircraft I flown have a trim disconnect switch, I would be surprised if the 7x did not have one.


Hmm, agreed. But if it might not work (which might have been an issue here, compounding the problems) ... then you need a plan B, and a pre-planned one.

[flydive1]

Hmm, agreed. But if it might not work (which might have been an issue here, compounding the problems) ... then you need a plan B, and a pre-planned one. 3rd Jun 2011 15:36I do not think that the switch did not work, just that it took time to realize what happened and to react, giving the trim the time to run a long way. Of course just speculating, as I was not on board an there is no information about it.

The plan B is for sure part of the preflight planning and flight operation, with I guess restrictions and ops info from Dassault, for such ferry flight.

[Green Cactus]

Actually, there is no switch to disconnect the trim, it is all fly by wire. With auto trim.
That makes it the big issue that it is.

[J-R]

A detailed review of the computer's non-volatile memory data, along with extensive simulation sessions, confirmed the sequence of events and has provided additional information.

During the entire event, the Flight Control laws operated normally. An "FCS: TRIM LIMIT" CAS message was triggered before the aircraft started to pitch up. The Flight Control short term protection functions remained inoperative in the first phase of the event. The pitch trim motor was eventually disconnected by the medium term protection functions, wich allowed the aircraft to recover normal behavior.

The pitch up movement caused by the trim runaway resulted in a load factor greater than 2,5g for 5 seconds with a peak of 4,5g, without exceeding aircraft structural limits. The aircraft structure has been inspected and no evidence of physical damage was visible.

The investigation to determine the origin of the pitch trim runaway and the non-operation of the short term protection functions continues.

There is an approved Flight Condition Approval Sheet (FCAS) which provides the flight procedure and limitations to perform a ferry flight.

This sheet notes that "flight crews shall agree for the most appropriate cockpit call-out to be triggered by the PNF in case a Pitch Trim Runaway is detected (e.g. "TRIM")

The following limitations apply for the ferry flight:

- MTOW ≤ 60.000lbs.
- CG ≤ 31% MAC during all flight
- Climb/Descent speed schedule: 240kt / M0.70
- Cruise speed and altitude schedule

* Use Long Range Cruise Performance information except if beyond the following limits: *

Airplane Gross weight: GW ≥ 50.000lbs
Max IAS 240 kt.
Max MACH 0.70
Max Pressure Altitude 33.000 ft


Airplane Gross weight: GW ≤ 50.000lbs
Max IAS 260 kt.
Max MACH 0.70
Max Pressure Altitude 37.000 ft

[Red Goose]

All this sounds like over-reaction to me. Other aircraft had trim runaways before, and as far as I know, it never led to the grounding of a whole fleet.
I wonder if the release of the AF 447 preliminary report has anything to do with it !?!

[FrankR]

I'm not a falcon 7x guy, but all of the aircraft I've flown have been equipped to stop runaway pitch trim. I don't believe you can manually stop a 7X trim runaway as this crew experienced, you need to wait for the computer "laws" to kick in and recognize the problem.

This is a huge problem in my book. Do you falcon lovers really like flying something you can't control? Perhaps you can explain to the group what the pilots should have done to control and prevent the 11,000Ft altitude excursion. Food for thought, IF the computer had commanded down rather than up, their might be a smoking hole outside of Simpang.

... And please use FACTS to explain what should have been done rather than "boo-hoo you guys hate us, it was only once, we love our falcon" we have been forced to read to justify and defend this incident.

I would have done my own research, but Dassault is so insecure they forced Smart Cockpit to remove systems materials from their site as well.

Now to be fair, I still want the ASC to install cables on ALL the flight controls of my 650 that's on order!

FR

[flydive1]

Well, your few post on this thread definitely sound like childish falcon hate

Yes, I sure that they will build the 650 with pulleys and cables because you tell them so:rolleyes:

Back to serious posts.

Question for the Falcon 7x pilots

What happens if during a trim runaway,or any trim automatic movements, you move the manual trim switches the opposite way?
Would that stop the trim?

Thanks

[J-R]

Question for the Falcon 7x pilots

What happens if during a trim runaway,or any trim automatic movements, you move the manual trim switches the opposite way?
Would that stop the trim?

No , The manual trim switches can only be used when the HSTA (Horizontal Stabilizer Trim Actuator) is controlled in back-up mode.

the back-up mode is engaged when both channel 3 or the HSTC 3 module (horizontal stabilizer control) and channel 4 or the HSTC 4 module have failed.

Once this channel is activated it will maintain direct and dedicated control of the HSTA.

[Green Cactus]

As I wrote before, there is no method by which you can trim the 7x in normal condition (law).
Only when the fly by wire computers decide that they don't know anymore will it let you use the manual pitch trim.

This is the situation the crew encountered, the fly by wire system was "happy" so no manual trim available.

(just to be completely clear, there is no trim wheel and the manual trim switches do not function in normal law, nor is there a way to override the auto trim in normal law).

GC

[flydive1]

Thank you guys:ok:

[TATprobe]

"No , The manual trim switches can only be used when the HSTA (Horizontal Stabilizer Trim Actuator) is controlled in back-up mode." :=

Not quite right. The manual trim switches work in Direct Laws as well. In fact, if the crew faced with the pitch trim runaway had forced the aircraft into Direct laws (there IS a way!) then they could have overcome the runaway. However, that would probably be a dangerous "undocumented procedure".

As far as the rather silly remarks about wanting cables and pulleys as backup, there have been plenty of control jams due to that "old' technology, and anyone who wants to go back to that is a Dinosaur!

[J-R]

@TATprobe

OK! thanks for the correction.

I can only hope that crews in a situation as the Malaysia flight will not go for the dangerous "undocumented procedure" :p

As for getting control of the Trim , I do know that Dassault is working on a Service Bulletin that will introduce a new switch on the emergency switch panel. This switch should allow direct control using the manual trim switches.

[LadyGrey]

Frank, what an incredible post:mad:

I'm not a falcon 7x guy, but all of the aircraft I've flown have been equipped to stop runaway pitch trim. I don't believe you can manually stop a 7X trim runaway as this crew experienced, you need to wait for the computer "laws" to kick in and recognize the problem.

This is a huge problem in my book. Do you falcon lovers really like flying something you can't control? Perhaps you can explain to the group what the pilots should have done to control and prevent the 11,000Ft altitude excursion. Food for thought, IF the computer had commanded down rather than up, their might be a smoking hole outside of Simpang.

... And please use FACTS to explain what should have been done rather than "boo-hoo you guys hate us, it was only once, we love our falcon" we have been forced to read to justify and defend this incident.

I would have done my own research, but Dassault is so insecure they forced Smart Cockpit to remove systems materials from their site as well.

Now to be fair, I still want the ASC to install cables on ALL the flight controls of my 650 that's on order!

I'm not a falcon 7x guy,

Yes, that´s what I thought.....


... And please use FACTS to explain what should have been done rather than "boo-hoo you guys hate us, it was only once, we love our falcon" we have been forced to read to justify and defend this incident.

FACTS.....Nobody!! justified and/or defended this incident. Au contraire, plenty of very smart people are working on that problem and they will find a solution!

but Dassault is so insecure

Yes, you, as an expert, would certainly know that.....

Now to be fair, I still want the ASC to install cables on ALL the flight controls of my 650 that's on order!

Jessus, the 650CV ( Cable Version )...did you call GS already??

As far as the rather silly remarks about wanting cables and pulleys as backup, there have been plenty of control jams due to that "old' technology, and anyone who wants to go back to that is a Dinosaur!

:D

This was posted by you on the G650 thread.....

First, Gulfstream clamps down the "cone of silence" whenever one of theirs has a problem.

Dassault apparently does not:ok:

LG

[Green Cactus]

TAT probe, if you could explain how to get a 7x out of normal laws....

I for one have no idea, I know it is possible to "move up" (for lack of a better word), but to get out of normal laws?

[FrankR]

Hey "Grey Lady"
It's always easy to attack the messenger when you don't have any solid answers, or knowledge. If you review the entire thread, you will see that rather than offering solutions to a potentially catastrophic failure, you and certain other posts simply spend line after line attacking me for asking that we stick to the facts, in this case that the aircraft can't be controlled by any means.

My requests were not "childish" or from a "Dinosaur". Simply an attempt to uncover the truth.

Sorry you feel the need to spend so many column inches attacking someone who wants to stick to the subject.

FR

[clivewatson]

For the benefit of those, like me, who know nothing about FBW aircraft, what memory or QRH actions are prescribed for the "trim runaway" scenario in a 7X?

[TATprobe]

On the 7X there are hardly any memory items, but essential pilot action is defined as an "Operating Technique". In the case of a pitch trim runaway, the Operating Technique is to counteract the out of trim situation by using the sidestick.

Interestingly, PITCH TRIM RUNAWAY is only referred to in the Manuals as being a problem when manual trim is being used (i.e. other than Normal Laws, where it is not available), so the scenario on the incident aircraft was not really foreseen, hence the engineering fix.

To Dassault's credit, they have been issuing daily updates on the problem via their customer portal, so anyone with a "need to know" is kept in the loop.

Of course, the merely curious are not privy to this information!
:ok:

[ALFRED]

One 7x took off this afternoon from LFPB, by 13:00

Looks that they've found a fix..?

[J-R]

Although most of the details are known, the official Service Bulletin for the "fix" is not out yet. Probably a ferry flight to a service station? I recon Jet Aviation, Basel will be overloaded for the coming weeks :oh:

[FLEXJET]

This was Airfix's, to Helsinki.
Maybe Dassault need Airfix more then ever... ;)

Yesterday morning another one, Portuguese, flew from Le Bourget to Istres Le Tubé (LFMI).

[ericthepilot]

How much does a 7X cost ?

Sitting still @ factory request , do the owners get remedial lift, and if so on what large cabin aircraft ?
Dassault picking up the bill ? Anybody knows ?


Wooow

[lappalainen]

Yes, it was a ferry flight with ferry permit from Dassault. We had no problems and flight was done with special restrictions applied. 7X is still not released for passenger service. Dassault is promising a SB that will fix the problem by June 15... it will require about four days of ground time and some new wiring done.... so we will see, what Dassaults "passioned engineering" comes up with.... meanwhile for all 7X pilots: have a nice time off duty!

[LadyGrey]

News:)

EASA Airworthiness Directives Publishing Tool (http://ad.easa.europa.eu/ad/2011-0114-E)

LG

[Capot]

or if you prefer,

UK CAA's EAD (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=4580)

[gern_blanston]

...if the crew faced with the pitch trim runaway had forced the aircraft into Direct laws (there IS a way!) then they could have overcome the runaway.
How exactly does one do that?

[atakacs]

is the 7x still suspended ?

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

There was an AINonline item a day or two ago that said all but three a/c had returned to flight, but that some were still subject to significant flight restrictions (e.g. Mmo=0.85 not 0.90) and that there were further systems changes due in the near future. I believe the ADs are all still in effect to some extent.