Royal Air Force Club

[ORAC]

Hoo hum,

Just emailled the RAF Club and resigned my membership WEF 31st Dec.

Feel a bit sad, one of my last ongoing connections with the RAF, but to honest I think I only ever used once in the 25 years I was in and not at in the 10 since I left (god, is it that long ago...). :sad:

In the circumstances I couldn't really justify the cost. If I added up what I have paid over the years I could have hired a suite at the Inn on the Park.

It was always said when I was in, mostly cynically, that the subs of the serving officers kept the MOD senior staff and defence contractors in the standard to which they had become accustomed. Whenever I did try and book a room for a few days in London it was invariably full.

At least for me, no more.

[newt]

Well done old boy!!:ok:

I resigned last year when I got fed up paying to use the facilities once a year and subsidising those who get to use it every day!

Plenty of other hotels and clubs where you can get your head down after a reunion for less than you pay for membership of the RAF Club!!

[Evalu8ter]

In the last 3 years of semi-regular overnights in London the HBC has only once managed to find me a room in the club - the rest of the time it was full or the remaining rooms were over the cap rate.

I do fear for the future of the club; what will happen to it when the current generation of, ahem, bed-blockers, dies out? Surely they should be laying the foundations now by having a number of rooms set aside for overnight stays by serving officers? If not, many of my generation will forego its' charms and seek cheaper accommodation elsewhere. Plus, the generation that currently dominate proceedings come from a time when the RAF was 4 or 5 times bigger than it is now (or will be). I'm afraid that the numbers for the club just don't add up...a black hole in membership revenue is coming and they must modernise and adapt to survive it.

[Wrathmonk]

I do fear for the future of the club

Which is why I guess they have opened up membership to family members (i.e this can go both directions in the generational chain!) of which I believe there are 500 already elected.



C) Family Membership: The Board of Trustees is empowered to elect as Family Members sons and daughters over 18 years of age, who should be proposed by a parent or legal guardian (who should be a Full Member of the Club of at least 2 years standing) and seconded by another Full Member of the Club of at least 2 years standing who is not a relative. The Board of Trustees is also empowered to elect as Family Members parents or legal guardians who should be proposed by the son or daughter (who should be a Full Member of the Club of at least 2 years standing) and seconded by another Full Member of at least 2 years standing of the Club who is not a relative.


as well as a vastly reduced membership fee, if you join immediatly on completing IOT, for the first 5 years of service.

The Club still boasts a 90%+ occupancy rate and seem to be looking to the future with new membership regulations. I suspect, however, there will soon be more never-served members than there will be serving/veterans.

[L J R]

It seems that the hotel booking service can't get the rooms that you can get by phoning yourself on most occasions...

Where is the added value from CHBS (or whoever they are)......

[Farfrompuken]

I stayed there very recently with my wife and thoroughly enjoyed it.

I must admit I haven't used it enough, but intend to make more use of such a great facility.

I think they've had a change of policy to get more serving officers in; discounts after detachments etc..

[Jackonicko]

It's a fantastic facility, and I'm astonished that people don't make more use of it.

Had my family member not inconsiderately terminated their membership in the most final way possible, I'd have been applying.... I had the form and everything!

[Flying Lawyer]

ORAC
As you're not bothered about severing one of your 'last ongoing connections' with your former career, and have used the club only once in 35 years, then your decision is probably sensible for you.

I found myself going to the club regularly as a guest and, when I found out that I was eligible (ex-UAS) to join as an Affiliate Member, I did so. Conscience as much as anything, as I’d enjoyed the club so often as a guest.

I’ve never stayed but understand the 82 rooms are allocated in order of booking. There are busy periods, but I’ve known friends get in at very short notice. eg After a good evening when they’ve decided against trying to get home. :)
The rates aren’t unreasonable given the location and quality. Tariffs (http://www.rafclub.org.uk/home/accommodation-facilities/accommodation-tariff)

Wrathmonk
Things may change (who knows?) but, at present, serving/veterans far outnumber never-served members. I always go to the club with serving/veteran members and, without exception, they’ve bumped into lots of people with whom they are serving or have served. Usually in the pub in the basement. ;)

Farfrompuken is right. Room rates are discounted 50% for Serving Members who've been in theatre.

Given the prime location in the heart of the West End, the magnificent building and the excellent facilities, the annual sub is very low. (Much less than comparable clubs in London.)
Serving: Half of one day's pay plus VAT based on the first level for each rank.
Former Serving/Foreign Serving/Affiliate Members: £124.00 incl VAT.

[Old-Duffer]

I joined the RAF Club in the great recruiting drive of 1967/68 and continued my membership when leaving regular service and can now take my choice of the senior citizens rate or the RAFVR membership rate!!

The club is well managed and is a place that non-RAF people appreciate for its style and ambiance. The bars are could for casual meetings up and the dining room a place for a special meal. I have never had trouble booking and getting a room but have not tried at very short notice. I never tried using the HBS but did it myself - I suspect the club might not understand the status of the HBS in the service scheme of things.

The club has to open its doors to a wider clientele if it is survive the problems of reduced service membership, rising costs and regulation. I have never found the 'outsiders' who use the club abusing the traditions of the place and most feel it a privilage to be able to have a function which is a cut above the average.

Yes, there are cheaper, more modern places but joining the club was one of the better decisions I made - particularly as I was in Hong Kong at the time - but my other haunt: The Brevet Flying Club in Shepherds Market subsequently closed its doors for good.

[Wrathmonk]

Flying Lawyer

You are right for the present but I think the club may be forced to 'change with the times' to entice in the new breed and retain those who have recently retired. They've gone in the right direction in some ways (relaxing dress rules at weekends for one) I just hope they don't go so far down the 'family membership' route that the 'ethos' of the club is lost and it becomes just 'another club in London'.

Jacko

Weren't you ex-UAS? If so can't you join in your own right? From the Club site (http://www.rafclub.org.uk/home/member-services)

... and all past members of the UAS should be eligible for affiliate membership in recognition of the UAS support of the Royal Air Force.

(Affiliate Membership is open to those who have filled or are filling appropriate appointments with RAF connections. The Trustees will therefore be looking for individuals with sustained, significant and active involvement, either in current appointment/s or previously. In order to broaden this category of membership, the rule also allows the election of candidates who have been or are actively contributing to promoting the interests of the RAF; again continuing interest and personal involvement in some aspect of the RAF family including, for example, philanthropic activities, work for RAF related charities, sponsorship - this list is by no means exhaustive)

[Jackonicko]

I was, and I had no idea that such membership existed. My Dad had started the wheels in motion for family membership....

I'm delighted and will look into it. Many thanks.

[APO Dried Plum]

As a serving officer I'm surprised by some of these posts. Personally I've found the club useful and helpful and have stayed there on many occasions. Once at very short notice, late at night after a concert in Hyde Park.... Although I did receive some strange looks.

A quick email the day before along the lines of '...I know it's a long shot but what are the chances...' has yielded the goods more than once.

In my view the key to success is to not be put off easily and have a bit off old fashioned tenacity as it's often worth it.

Finally and contrary to the more cynical, of course the ratio of serving to non serving is going to be disproportionate, the place would be unsustainable otherwise.

My one criticism is that I have yet to see a painting of a any form of rotary asset in there!!! I know it is (sorry was) a fast jet RAF but lets sort that one out.

[Vertico]

Agree strongly with you, O-D - except that it's only HALF a day's pay for those still serving! An even bigger bargain.

Although it's easy to criticise any establishment, I do suggest that those contributors to this thread who don't take O-D's attitude to the Club are perhaps being rather unfair. The Club is physically constrained by the building's dimensions as to how it can increase its facilities. However, the latest Newsletter says that redundant staff accommodation on the 5th floor is being converted into 10 double/twin bedrooms (planned for opening in Spring 2010) precisely because of the high demand for rooms from members.

Booking as far in advance as you can is always advisable if you want to stay in the Club. When the Club is full, the reservation staff will normally suggest possible accommodation with neighbouring Clubs such as the Cavalry and Guards (literally next door!) or the Caledonian, just a little farther away. You can also ask to be put on a wait list, which I've found does work.

The Trustees and Management of the Club seem to be doing everything they can to encourage serving officers to use the Club, and I'm sure they are also conscious of the long-term threat to the Club which is posed by the steadily reducing number of serving officers. The push to increase the number of Affiliated members and the introduction of Family membership are just two aspects of the way in which that long-term threat is being fought.

The rigid dress code of the past hasn't been relaxed just at weekends. It applies at breakfast throughout the week, and in the Running Horse pub in the basement at all times.

My own non-RAF friends are always hugely impressed when they first visit the Club. For its location, facilities and ambiance it is unrivalled in London. As for the cost, I can only suggest that anyone who thinks it is expensive should enquire as to the cost of joining the RAC Club, or any of the other well-known London clubs. They will then realise what an incredible bargain we have in the RAF Club!

Yes, the dear, departed Brevet Flying Club was also a great place of refuge in the days when the RAF Club was nothing but a stuffy old farts' zone. Happily, the RAF Club has since changed immeasurably for the better.

[jindabyne]

Duffer

RAF Club - Best Day's Pay Ever Spent

Concur with all that you say. A member since 1966, I now use the Club 2/3 times per year and thoroughly enjoy its ambience, historical connections and value for money. Hardly a visit goes by without bumping into some old mates not seen for years.

newt

I resigned last year when I got fed up paying to use the facilities once a year and subsidising those who get to use it every day!

Plenty of other hotels and clubs where you can get your head down after a reunion for less than you pay for membership of the RAF Club!!

If using the facilities once a year is by choice, then it seems a tad unreasonable to suggest that you're subsidising those that use it regularly. And as for getting your head down after a re-union; age must be wearying you. The Club is ideal for doing no such thing. Foldy, PE and others ensure that after our re-unions, getting our heads down in the Club takes place long after the official re-union has wound up - retirement to the Cowdray for far too long, followed (not long after) by an excellent breakfast in the dining room. BTW, you appear to be in resignation mode these days - no Blitz?

As for room availability and difficulty booking - hardly surprising given the numerical ratio of members to rooms. Book early, and be prepared to be disappointed if you cannot.

From what I gather elsewhere, the Club is in good order financially, and will hopefully provide me with many more hangovers and both chance and planned meetings with those old mates for years - in 'familiar' surroundings.

PS: For those in the know, I'll be supplying Black Grouse in the CB -----

[BEagle]

Although the new room booking system works pretty well, I find it frustrating that you cannot see an 'availability' overview before filling out all the data fields. If I knew that there were no rooms at the inn on a particular date beforehand, then I'd know not to bother tapping away.

I agree - it's an excellent facility and the breakfasts in particular are historic hang-over cures!

Does the sport of 'Donaldson baiting' still take place?

[newt]

Oh Jindabyne,

On my case again!!

How can it be unreasonable to decide not to subsidise those who get to use the club every day?

And as for the Blitz, it is not my scene any more! Why pay to have people be rude to me when they can do it at home for free!!

Enjoy yourself and hope you booked early enough to get a room!!

:=

[Arty Fufkin]

I stayed there a few weeeks ago and had no trouble getting a room. The standard of accommodation easily beats 4* London hotels I have stayed at and the location is hard to beat. More importantly, the club is 1/2 the price, much better presented and there wasn't a pikey in sight!

[jindabyne]

How can it be unreasonable to decide not to subsidise those who get to use the club every day?

Choice, as I said.

Why pay to have people be rude to me when they can do it at home for free!!

Because we enjoy it.

Merry Cringe

[L J R]

There is an interesting move about the Club's potential to dissolve itself due to members having no say in its management under the new 'Company's guidelines' - (or similar legislation).

See the members thread on the Clubs Website for the debate.

[grobace]

Like one or two others who have posted on this topic, I joined as a result of the membership 'push' in the late 60s. Unlike Newt, who, if I recognise his pseudonym, has always been a bit off the wall, I have never viewed my annual sub as being a subsidy for someone unlucky enough to be in London on an almost daily basis. In my experience the Club has moved with the times in the last 40 years and continues to do so. It is a great place to hold reunions, to repair to after a good reunion or to hold any sort of party. But those of you who no longer wish to pay your dues - and they probably represent better value for money than the monthly mess subs I used to have to pay - should just quit quietly and gracefully and stop being such curmudgeons!

[Lightning Mate]

Wot?

Newt off the wall.........

Change the first letter to something at the other end of the alphabet and you might get close.

:)

[Union Jack]

Lightning

Are you calling Newt a "cewt"?:)

Jack

PS Perhaps more importantly, from my brief forays past the august portals (pun intended) I would have to say that the light blue are very fortunate to have such a splendid central London venue, at such relatively slender cost, and the old cry of "Use or lose it" comes to mind ....

[newt]

So its have a go at Newt again!!

Must be that time of year!

Do not know who you are grobace but I think your pseudonym recce is way off the mark!! You might also note that I am not being rude and calling you names without knowing who you are!

Bah Humbug!

The rest is:mad:

[grobace]

There was a caveat in my post, newt, that the less than polite comment only applied if you were who I thought you might be. But, as it appears that, unlike Lightning Mate, you were not one ( a Lightning mate, that is), you are clearly not the cutie someone else knows you to be. I think I'll stop here before I confuse everyone on this forum, not just myself.

[Tankertrashnav]

It's worth remembering that the only reason we still have such a splendidly located facility is because of the committee's very astute decision to purchase the freehold some years back. Had this not been so we would probably have been languishing somewhere in Paddington now - if anywhere! I understand that the reason the In and Out had to move was that they only held a lease and the owners had upped to the rent to unmeetable levels.

BTW does anyone know what happens at the old In and Out these days? Have the Japanese moved in from next door?

[Flying Lawyer]

BTW does anyone know what happens at the old In and Out these days? Have the Japanese moved in from next door? A property tycoon bought the building in 1996 for £50m, planning to turn it into a six-star hotel. Planning permission was granted but it's remained unoccupied ever since - except for security staff and as a car-park for a few of the owner's cars.
It was put on the market about a year ago for a rumoured £250m; I don't know if it was sold.
It now looks run-down and shabby. A pity, it's a magnificent building.

[Willi B]

As a member of a now defunct Antipodean club with reciprocal membership, my wife and I have stayed at the RAF Club on visits to the Old Dart. Only criticism is that by Oz standards (and French chambres at Chez Cercle National des Armees), the bedrooms are a tad small - but the same can be said for the 'In and Out' and the Naval Club. Must be a Brit thing.

If you don't use it, you will lose it. My former Club (the Naval & Military in Melbourne) went to the wall earlier this year. With a declining Service membership, a perceived need to maintain 'standards' and failed initiatives to broaden the membership base, it was only a matter of time before Mr Micawber's words came true:

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pound ought and six, result misery."

The Bank called in the secured loans, the place was sold, the contents unceremoniously auctioned off and 140 or so years of tradition went down the gurgler!

[Melchett01]

Have to say that I can see both sides of the story here. For the price, it is a fantastic facility in a lovely part of Town. However, as a serving member, often on ops, getting a room is up there with winning the lottery,

I did post a suggestion on the Club website a couple of years back, suggesting that a proportion of rooms should be set aside for serving members. I had tried to book in on several occasions over the previous couple of years only to be told it was fully booked. When I spoke to the Club, I was advised to book as far in advance as possible. I did point out that in today's expeditionary Air Force it was often difficult to know whethe one would be in the country in a months time let alone 6 months time, and as such, did they think it fair that retired members could effectively fill the Club years in advance?

According to the news letters at the time, they were then taking bookings for 2012 Olympics. So whilst Gp Capt Buffy Henderson-Smythe DFC BBC ITV* and his chums are sorted, where does that leave the operational elements freqiently deployed but paying subs for the retired personnel and their chums to enjoy this marvellous facility?

I'm not saying we should ban retired personnel - that would be a serious blow to Club membership and ethos. But for the Club to remain a viable and relevant institution, there must be more recognition of the demands placed on currently serving members and an acknowledgment that long-range advance booking may not be possible. Failure to do so will only serve to alienate large numbers of members, threatining the viability of the Club long term.

And then we would have to go to the Union Jack Club :E

[Herc-u-lease]

Melchett - you had an * by ITV in Gp Capt H-S post noms. surely you were building up to a witty "post-script, small font" quip?:)

.

[Boozydragon]

I resigned a number of years ago for the reasons stated by many in previous threads. Having spent many years paying my subs and finally getting a room there, I was very unimpressed with the allegedly refurbished rooms. The room we stayed in was tiny and seemed to have a 'Merlin on idle' ouside the room for most of the night. The staff's attitude was of a standard expected in a Holiday Inn Express (sorry Holiday Inn) and I left the following morning vowing never to spend any more time and money in/on the premises. I think if I'd been a Snr Officer out of MOD Main Building I would have been gushing about the quality of 'my Club' and what 'a wonderful facility it is in a lovely part of town' and how the latest 'reunion of ancient former Air Officers' was such a tremendous evening! What the RAF Club should be doing is attracting the JOs to spend time there as full an appreciated membersand not only visit as part of IOTC and be parted from their money to support Air Marshall Ffoulks-Smythe and his cronies!. How many times over the past 20 yrs (in my experience), have we had this call to members to 'support the Club lest it close and we lose a valuable asset'. Then it has a revamp and falls into its old ways and the old farts corner all the rooms...and so it continues. I say stuff the club and stay in one of the better hotels. :mad:

[Legalapproach]

The Club is a great asset to have in central London providing good, cheap accomodation. I use it from time to time, generally at short notice. Sometimes I can get a room, other times it's fully booked but then I frequently find the same thing with hotels all over the country.

A few years ago my wife was quite seriously ill and transferred to St Thomas's hospital from Norfolk where we lived. We had three small children at the time. I have to say that the Club was extremely helpful over weekend visits to see her, arranging a room, putting extra beds in and generally helping where they could.

The only downside to the club is that, having regard to one's spouses automatic membership, it's a bit close to the shops and the front desk are far too helpful at storing shopping bags.:*

[Sand4Gold]

I,too, have recently cancelled my membership after 24+ years. If I had a 9-5 position then, yes, I could plan months in advance to secure a room, but I don't.

Allowing nondescript persons to secure affiliate membership over, for example, serving warrant officers is, simply, wrong. The RAF (Officers') Club (with its highly prized charitable status) needs to reinvent itself to survive.

AA

[Lightning Mate]

grobace,

I'm afraid that I agree with many comments on the thread.

When I'm in town I stay at a private residence which is part of the Wolsey Homes chain. Dine well with the owners too, all for a price that beats the Club hands down.

By the way, what's a Grob 115E? Does it have a trigger?

[Torque Tonight]

As a fresh faced Fg Off not too many years ago I used to use The Club all the time. It had recently had a shake-up, adjusted the tariffs and brought some young blood in. Frequently when on BFT/AFT, my coursemates and I would head down to London for a weekend on the town and I could generally get a basic single for about £30. I probably averaged about three nights there per month consistently, and just wanted somewhere to lay my head - not bothered about breakfast, little bottles of shampoo etc.

Now it's a different story. I see that basic rooms are still listed but I can barely remember the last time I could book a room at the club for less than about £100. Now as a poverty stricken junior first officer I can't really justify that expense when I can get a rooms in decent hotels in central London for about £50 through a certain website.

I do like the RAF Club and want to support it but at the moment it is pricing itself out of the market to a certain extent. Due to the constraints of the fabric of the building the quality of the rooms is limited and its USPs are really only it's status and address. They'll need some careful planning to succeed in the future, but I hope they do.

I don't begrudge the old Rowley Birkin types propped up in the best seats of the Cowdray Room as I aspire to be the same one day!

[jindabyne]

During my last visit to the Club, I had the pleasure of being invited into the company of a party celebrating their awards that day at Buckingham Palace (MCs, DFCs). Most were young serving members, and I felt proud and privileged to share their company. Unlike one or two others posting here, I would like to think that they, and their views on life, represent the majority of today's generation of junior officers.

And for the few that choose to claim their peripatetic lifestyle, brought on by their operational status, as a reason for being unable to maintain membership, that's fine. But remember that many members have been in that position during their serving life, and to collectively describe them in the manner of Posts 29 & 31 is inappropriate.

Torque,

My single room with shower and WC for two weekday nights in December is £114 - surely that can't be bad? Don't know Rowley, but me and my old muckers will raise a glass to him. Won't tell you which night, but you would recognise us by our good manners, friendly banter, lack of upper foliage and inebriated demeanour. Join us!

[grobace]

You clearly know full well what a Grob 115E is, Lightning Mate, and I don't imagine your current steed has a trigger, either.
As to the to and fro of the discussion points, surely we can all make our own minds up as to whether we wish to be members of the RAF Club. Nobody forced me to join, and I would hope that the newbies coming out of IOT are not being given the hard sell.

[BEagle]

Well said, jindabyne!

Years ago - quite a few, actually - I was sitting in the Cowdray Room having a quiet drink. A distinguished-looking old gent and his guest sat down opposite and began to chat....

It was Bob Stanford-Tuck - he was chatting with some meeja-luvvy about his friend, 'Dolfo' Galland.

The RAF Club has improved immeasurably over the years. It isn't some convenient doss house for kids out-on-the-town, it's a Club. But it is neither stuffy nor an old farts' rest home, it's what the members make it.

I say stuff the ignorant young oiks; let them stay in one of the hotels. Innit...

[Torque Tonight]

Sorry Beags, I think you're well off the mark with your last post, which I presume was aimed fairly squarely at me. If you write off me and my colleagues as ignorant young oiks, then I presume you'll understand why The Club is in trouble again, wondering how to get more young blood and cashflow in.

The truth is I am proud to be a member of the RAF Club and value it as a direct link to my former job, of which I am also very proud. I plan to remain a member for life and would use it every day if I worked in central London.

However, in the decade-ish that I've known it, the Club has gone from being b----dy good value to a bit on the steep side. I'm sure you can work out the effect that has on those of us who are not on Spec Aircrew rates. I always enjoy visiting whether it be for a reunion and dinining-in night, a meal in the restaurant, a G&T on the balcony or just as somewhere to crash out after a night on the town. They always seem happy for me to settle my bill regardless of the reason for my visit.

I suspect you and I were no different when you were my age (back in the Cretaceous Period);)

[Boozydragon]

You have just confirmed what I said. I would continue but words fail me!

[BEagle]

No, not having a go at you, Torque Tonight, just mocking the prose of those who consider it acceptable to complain about 'old farts' in the Club.

As for price, I've booked 2 nights in Jan 2010 - arriving Sunday evening and leaving Tuesday morning. Single with shower and WC - total cost £109.

Whereas for the same period at somewhere like the Novotel in Paddington, the cost would have been at least double that figure.

Yes, hotels in the UK are generally pretty expensive compared with those in Europe, but the Club's prices are very reasonable - particularly for 'old farts' living on a Service pension.

[covec]

Is there a comaparable Club for non-commissioned RAF personnel in the 21st Century, or "just" the UJ CLub and Victory?

[talk_shy_tall_knight]

Is there a comaparable Club for non-commissioned RAF personnel in the 21st Century, or "just" the UJ CLub and Victory?

That's nicely popped open a can of worms. As has been stated previously, notwithstanding various initiatives for affiliated/associated memberships for various family members and/or bright young folk at University who have yet to actually serve in the RAF, there is no room at the Inn for grizzled old WO's who have given perhaps 30+ years service and would undoubtedly have one or two tales to tell in the bar.

[ZuluMike]

I wholeheartedly agree with melchett01, ancient aviator and similar. After 12 years of membership I, too, resigned this year after not once being able to get a room at the Club.

Jindabyne, your belief that "many" members of previous generations are familiar with our current op tempo and the short notice of our postings and movements would, I suspect, be impossible to substantiate. I have previously been given 3 days' notice to spend 4 months on a full-board, flight-included sunshine and sand extravaganza on the MoD and have actually been lucky enough to have been selected for one of such events on a annual basis for 6 years - none with more than 2 months notice and several of 6 months duration. We never actually know when we are going to get back until we step off the plane at Brize! I am certainly not unusual in this - it's normal now. How are we to book 6 months in advance? I am lucky if I can book 6 weeks in advance, because it's not just my own movements that are last minute and unpredictable, but those of everyone with whom I work and whose job I have to cover when they're away. Generations past may have had what is now called 'turmoil' but never has it been sustained for so many years - and with so few personnel.

I am very sad to have left it, but the RAF Club categorically does not meet the needs of today's serving RAF officers (those who are not London-based). The exodus of 'younger' (it's all relative!) members cannot be argued with. Those of the generations with more life experience, shall we say, can keep their Club as it is (for it is their Club) and opine that it is fine and serves our interests. Time will tell who is right.

[BEagle]

I fully understand that the ridiculous overstretch and undermanning of today's RAF cause considerable turbulence - but, apart from during my UAS QFI tour, I certainly couldn't guarantee to be able to book ahead for anything unless it coincided with a period of approved annual leave.

I do think, though, that a quick-access 'availability' overview would be helpful for those wishing to book a room.

Perhaps a number of rooms should be kept 'free' for current serving officers only - but with a cut-off after which they could be made generally available? For example, 10 rooms could not be booked by anyone except current serving officers until the week beforehand? The numbers of rooms and days beforehand might need tweaking, but as a general concept??

[sisemen]

I don't begrudge the old Rowley Birkin types propped up in the best seats of the Cowdray Room as I aspire to be the same one day!

Many a true word.

Many decades ago I signed up for the Club as part of the OCTU (that's how long ago!) jaunt, and like many on this thread bemoaned the fact that, as a serving officer I had the devil's own job to get a room. The place seemed stuffed with old farts who regarded anybody that wasn't there at least 5 days a week as a bounder and an outsider.

However, the young tyros eventually get older and become .....hurrrumph.... one of those taking the comfy chairs. Plus ca change!

I only dropped out 'cos I couldn't justify the annual subs while living in Oz. Pity one can't get temporary membership for that one night a decade when one is in town - would love to show the new Mrs Sisemen around.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

This is yet another occasion when I am rather glad that I was less than successful academically, membership of a club you can hardly ever use because it's always booked up by old duffers and then feeling guilty about cancelling your membership, what a thoroughly quaint notion :p

[Old-Duffer]

A host of interesting posts, covering a wide spectrum of views.

However, I don't believe anybody would wish to see the club deep in the fertiliser. Those with criticisms of its facilities, style, costs etc ought to tell Peter Owen - the club secretary - and ask that he tables those views at the next committee meeting. There's something of the old chime: "If you enjoyed what we did - tell your friends - if you didn't - tell us".

I for one will stick with my membership for as long as the pluses beat the minuses.

Incidentally, I stayed at a Travel Lodge next to a petrol station on the ring road round Shrewsbury last weekend. Cost me £50 for the bed, bring your own soap, another tenner if I wanted breakfast at the pub across the yard - but only after 0800 hours.

[brakedwell]

Anybody remember the Gremlin Club in Craven Hill Gardens, off the Bayswater Road? :E:E

[jindabyne]

Zulu

Jindabyne, your belief that "many" members of previous generations are familiar with our current op tempo and the short notice of our postings and movements would, I suspect, be impossible to substantiate.

I would like to think that I'm right in my belief, and that most ex-serving members have the utmost respect and understanding for those that were and are deployed on current operations; I'm curious as to why you should think otherwise. Next week I'll be in the company of many ex-serving old farts, and I'm certain that 100% will substantiate my belief, and would be dismayed if thought of otherwise.

BEags,

Go along with your ideas of 'quick-access availability & rooms for serving officers'. Perhaps it's timely for a formal representation to Peter Owen (a good listener), as mentioned by Old Duffer?

[sisemen]

Perhaps someone ought to tap the Club "authorities" on the shoulder and point them in the direction of this thread.

[BEagle]

If it would encourage the younger element to keep up their membership and perhaps one day themselves to become old farts dampening the comfy chairs in the corner, I'd certainly add my vote to a scheme reserving a number of rooms for serving officers until a week beforehand.Sentence too long and insufficiently punctuated.

However, it must be for a 'young blade' to propose this - secure in the knowledge that many of the old and once-bold would support it.

Are you going to be meeting with the likes of foldie next week?? Have a great time!

[jindabyne]

Step up young blade - you might be surprised at the aged support you would have.

Yup, he'll be around 'till late - surprises me how lucid he always is at breakfast (perhaps the reason's obvious!!). More often than not, we also have the delight of bumping into RPE draped over one of those comfy chairs in the corner - always a pleasure, regardless that he always quaffs a plentiful share of our grog!

[RETDPI]

Over my time at least , from witnessing the spectacle of Air Marshals doing "The Twist" in the Club's Disco in the late 60's to the current debate , the Club has always been open to the criticism of being anachronistic to current Service mores and demands.
It surely always has been somewhat biased towards the tastes of the more ancient regime.
Like many of us of a particular generation , I always considered it a case of "pay up and put up- for if you're lucky you might be old yourself one day".
Not so now then.

[L J R]

I am not averse to the more mature retirees in the Club. I find them a source of great discussion, and banter. I am more annoyed at the inability to get a room as per the above, as I too mostly like the place - although I have problems with the office staffs' occasional inability to understand English. Being a current serving 'old fart' myself, I would like to have had the cheap accommodation returning from the land of the headpiece - but nil-stock!


Oh, and by the way, I don't need the glossy magazine with pictures of the recent dinner......save some money...!

There is a Discussion area you can access on the Club's site, so does someone want to start a thread there on 'complaints'...?

[sisemen]

Of course there is the assumption that rooms are being taken by the "old farts" rather than the 105 officers still left in the RAF.

[Thelma Viaduct]

On taking my then girlfriend (to be wife) there and finding out they only had a double single bed room available........ east european girl at reception says:

"you can push ze beds togethers"

The shower was great btw.

[Flying Lawyer]

Perhaps someone ought to tap the Club "authorities" on the shoulder and point them in the direction of this thread.Maybe someone already has. ;)

jindabyneMore often than not, we also have the delight of bumping into RPE draped over one of those comfy chairs in the corner - always a pleasure, regardless that he always quaffs a plentiful share of our grog! RPE was made a Trustee earlier this year. Good opportunity to bend his ear over a glass or two, or three, or four, or five, or ......... :)

FL

[taxydual]

'I don't care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members'.

Groucho Marks


Don't know the point of that interjection, but I'm an old fart, never used the club. Good luck to them who do.

"Steward, bring me another Stingah! Never like this in the old day's. Harrumph, what say you, Binky old boy?"

[Robby NL]

Surely in this day and age the RAF Club should be for all the RAF, but no (according to comments on this site) you can serve a Short Commission and have life time membership but if you serve a life time in the Service and retire at 55, thanks - good bye and don't darken the RAF Clubs door step! :mad:

I don't know all the rules and regulations but is it true that you can join the UAS and never the real RAF but get a potential life time membership of the RAF Club- this can't be true surely?:ugh:

On a serious side if the RAF Club is looking for support open its self up to the whole RAF! :D

[Wrathmonk]

Robby NL

Non commissioned personnel of all the Services have the opportunity to join the Union Jack Club which is considerably cheaper than the RAF Club (and I'm sure the Army and RN officer corps equivalents (if such things still exist). The UJ Club does allow officers to stay on a temporary membership basis but have to pay (and quite rightly IMHO) more per night!

Perhaps only when we go fully down the line of combined messes (including mixed bars and eating areas [i.e. no tables set aside for officers and SNCOs;)], will the RAF Club look to open up its membership accordingly - but I wouldn't hold your breath.

Wonder what happens when a son or daughter of a current Club member, and who holds in their own right a family membership, subsequently joins the Air Force (or Army/Navy) as an airman/soldier/sailor. Are they forced to resign or should they keep their mouth shut, maintain the family membership, and secretly 'buck' the system!;) And then book all their "oik" mates in for a big pi55 up, particularly when BEags is in town!:E

[brakedwell]

It's a shame the Gremlin Club is no more. It opened during WW2 for RAF, Commonwealth and Allied Air Forces aircrew. The rooms were cheap, the food was good and the bar was open when all others were closed. Unfortunately it went out existence in the mid sixties.

[Samuel]

For a visiting Kiwi, and RNZAF Rtd, the RAF Club was very handy and I've stayed there on the odd occasion, but the last time I sought a booking it was declined by some snotty sheila; no reason given!:uhoh:

I should perhaps add, that one of my more memorable occasions occurred in the RAF Club.On a visit to the UK a few years ago, I arrived back at the club and took the lift which happened to full of somewhat elderly gentlemen in dinner jackets covered in lots of medals!

I gave my usual affable "G'day", and one of these gentlemen said; "Ah, a Kiwi eh, you'll know Alan Deere then"?

I pointed out that while many of my , post-war, generation would certainly know of Alan Deere, and I had in fact a treasured copy of his "Nine Lives", few of us would ever have had the opportunity to meet him.

'Right" he said," we can fix that", and I was ushered along to meet the man in question. I must admit I was a bit stunned to be standing chatting to one of my real heroes. A very modest man as I recall.

[Melchett01]

If it would encourage the younger element to keep up their membership and perhaps one day themselves to become old farts dampening the comfy chairs in the corner, I'd certainly add my vote to a scheme reserving a number of rooms for serving officers until a week beforehand.Sentence too long and insufficiently punctuated.

However, it must be for a 'young blade' to propose this - secure in the knowledge that many of the old and once-bold would support it.



Step up young blade - you might be surprised at the aged support you would have.

As I said, I did suggest such a thing a couple of years back via the website comments / forums. IIRC (I'm stuck in the Fatherland and can't log on to the RAF Club members area to check), but I do recall getting a reply that went along the lines of thanks awfully for your suggestion, we will pass it on to the senior old farts for discussion and ignoring. At the time I was about to go OOA yet again so didn't have time to chase it, and frankly ever since I got back, I have not felt the need to try to get a room in the Club - 'Trap or Die' - it's the way ahead, and has a far higher success rate at landing a bed for the night than trying to get in the Club :ok:

However, the above comments regarding Alan Deere are exactly why we need to let Beags and the other old farts wet the comfy chairs! Quite frankly, whilst some are as dull as dishwater, the vast majority are a delight to sink a few beers with - as some cracking Dining-In nights at Bentley Priory as a holding officer prove.

[Tankertrashnav]

Wonder what happens when a son or daughter of a current Club member, and who holds in their own right a family membership, subsequently joins the Air Force (or Army/Navy) as an airman/soldier/sailor.


I dont have family membership but I am in a similar position to that envisaged above. My daughter (a civilian) has joined my wife and me at the Club as our guest, and her twin brother would be fully entitled to (although he'd have to smarten up a bit before I brought him in!). However their elder brother who is an army NCO would be unable to use the club, even as my guest, unless I broke the rules.

It's a shame, but there we are, and I accept the situation, as does No 1 son. Sorry Robby NL, but I'm with Wrathmonk on this one - dont hold your breath, or at least hold it until all we old old farts are dead!

[rockape2k7]

Perhaps someone ought to tap the Club "authorities" on the shoulder and point them in the direction of this thread.


[email protected] ????

Nice chap and would listen if a coherent body formed.

I would agree that 'for serving officer' rooms set aside, until D-x would be a very good way of trialing the theory that... 'we' can't book 'that' far ahead... If after 12 months the Club has manifestly lost 'bums in beds' as a result (just compare the figures under the current approach and the one offered on here) then bin the idea and hold on to the empirical evidence.

Just a thought!

[Willi B]

I only dropped out 'cos I couldn't justify the annual subs while living in Oz.

If you still live in Oz, why not consider joining a local club that has reciprocal membership with the RAF Club (and many others around the world).

Not that I'm biased, but one could look no further than the Naval Military & Air Force Club of South Australia (http://www.navmil.org/)

Membership fees for country and inter-state members, start from around $AUD200 p.a.

[philrigger]

;)

Robby NL

Surely in this day and age the RAF Club should be for all the RAF,

I think this would only drive the commissioned types away from the place.
I was not of the commissioned superhero type and I would not wish to socialise with them any more than they would wish to socialise with those of us further down the food chain. Leave them to it and at least we know where they are!

I remember the Chevrons Club just off Baker St in London which closed in the late 60s or early 70s. As the title suggests it was for NCOs. It had to close because of falling use.

After reading this again I think it sounds a bit bitter. That is not how it is supposed to read and I apologise. I am of the old school and think that there should be a place for each and not a place for all.


Philrigger.

[November4]

A couple of years back whilst still serving, I was on a 1 day course put on by a civilian training provider. The location of the course was the RAF Club.

I was a Cpl at the time and this was the only way that I got through the doors of the place.

[Vertico]

A usually reliable source tells me that the matter of "blocked" bedroom reservations for serving officers was raised at a meeting last week of one of the Club's committees. I hear that the initial reaction was very favourable, with several options being put forward. The mood of the meeting, I'm told, was that it was another way of helping the more junior members, whose continued support is essential to the long-term future of our Club.

As always, the idea will now have to be taken through the admin process. However, it's encouraging to know that it wasn't simply written off as too difficult, or too expensive.

Watch this space!

[Pontius Navigator]

I have used the club regularly over the years and only had a total failure once and was given a room in an adjacent club on another occasion. There is a technique, admittedly easier in certain jobs or if you are retired.

You can book the Club at no cost months in advance. It used to be 3 but I believe that is now unlimited. You can then cancel at a few hours notice at no cost. Now that is where the 'can't get a reservation' kicks in.

It is very convenient for visiting Buck House - mother-in-law makes her annual pilgrimage. It is convenient for Chelsea too although more expensive on members day :).

It is also useful as a drop in and meeting place - I use the showers most visits. It also has a free internet service. Afternoon tea is good value. I also use the discounted parking at the Mayfair Car Park - it is outside the congestion zone, reasonable for central London and easy to use.

And this year we discovered that breakfast is free for overnight stays in August.

[Wrathmonk]

PN

It is convenient for Chelsea too although more expensive on members day

Spooky - booked my room for the night before Members Day and thought it was more than normal! And no inclusive brekkie either. Guess breafkast will be strawberries, cream and Pimms (and probably cost as much as the room!)

[Pontius Navigator]

Last time I was there I spied an Arctic Star emblem. The old boy, he looked incredibly young, flew Hurricanes in Murmansk. After the war he was an AA in Moscow. Absolutely top bloke.

Another time, another young 'un in the Running Horse, was on Wimpys in the Gulf of Aden.

And for BEages I even had a chat with his old friend BB :}

[BBadanov]

brakedwell: "It's a shame the Gremlin Club is no more. It opened during WW2 for RAF, Commonwealth and Allied Air Forces aircrew. The rooms were cheap, the food was good and the bar was open when all others were closed. Unfortunately it went out existence in the mid sixties."

No, not the mid 60s - I stayed at the Gremlin December 1970, having "indulged" on the VC10 from RAF Changi to Brize. In those days a lot of us Aussies, having done our tour in Vietnam, hitched down to Singapore to get the VC10. My fellow passenger on the way to UK (through Gan and Akrotiri) was an RAF WGDCR (Bacon I think?) who had just ferried out a Hunter for the new Singapore Air Defence Command. Then train to Paddington (I think) and fast black to the Gremlin. Met one of my mates there as soon as I walked in, then down to The Swan on Bayswater. The nearby Columbia Club was then a US officers' club which we could also use. Good days!! :ok:

I was member of the RAF Club during my RAF years and into retirement, but rather pointless now that I live on the other side of the world, as I often did run into unavailability when I was a member.

[kjc273]

Members are welcome to bring both Serving and non-Serving people into the Club's dining and bar areas as their guests provided they are of course conforming to dress codes.

[Tankertrashnav]

The previous thread on this subject unfortunately degenerated into entirely unnecessary bickering on perceived racism and was predictably closed:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/419756-128-piccadilly-2.html

My own interest in reopening this thread has nothing at all to do with the ethnicity of the staff, but how it is financed.

As you can see I am coming up to 65, and one of the little perks I was looking forward to was the fact that my annual subcriptions to the club were going to be frozen at the level they were on my attaining the age of 65. Now I discover that wef 1 January 2012 (ironically my 65th birthday) this concession is being withdrawn.

I dont know what perception the trustees of the club have of a retired officer. Someone who retired at 55 on a full pension, maybe worked for another 10 years in industry/commerce and picked up another one, maybe has a rental property to add to the pot - all in all quite comfortable, thank you? In my own case I struggle to maintain my membership and visit the club once a year on my limited means, but I would like to keep it up as one of the few luxuries I permit myself. I suspect I am not the only retired RAF officer who is not exactly living in clover.

In the previous thread I saw moans from serving officers that the club seems to be run for the benefit of retired members. However if like them I were to be paying half a day's pay for membership on my present rate of income, my subscriptions would be reduced by more than 50% overnight .

By the way, what is half a day's basic pay for, say, a 6 year flight lieutenant these days? I somehow suspect he/she is getting a better deal than I am.

[ShyTorque]

As a retired officer I think I've got a better deal.

i.e. Never suscribed and never been to the place.

[Biggus]

The medium edge of the wedge perhaps? The Club is obviously struggling for money...

Given the ever shrinking size of the RAF Officer cadre, changes in living tastes, higher priorities for hard earned money, I think the RAF Club needs to evolve radically or face extinction.

I believe the perception, it is certainly my own, is that the RAF Club "seems to be run for the benefit of retired SENIOR officers".

One of the great, or frustrating, depending on your point of view, things about perceptions is that they don't have to be true, or based on any facts, to be widely held - they just are!


Edited for poor spelling!!!

[Pontius Navigator]

Partaking of a free breakfast last August - breakfast if free in August - I noted a former ACM in the bay window (buying a used car springs to mind) and a former Air Cdre in another corner.

There may be some truth in what Biggus says.

That said, the same weekend, I met a retired officer, I would guess gp capt but equally could have been a flt lt. He had flown Hurricanes at Murmansk. Post-war he was an attache in Moscow - fascinating.

A year or so before I met another in the Running Horse. No idea of his rank but IIRC he served on Wellingtons in the Gulf of Aden - equally fascinating.

[Biggus]

An ex-attache in Moscow will have been at least a Wg Cdr, probably a Gp Capt!

[Torque Tonight]

The success of the place ebbs and flows. In the late 90s when I got involved with the RAF, the place was in difficulty because it was underused and frequented primarily by a handful of old-timers.

There followed a succesful campaign to get some young blood in and get junior officers involved. Prices were set very reasonably and so in the early to mid 2000's, I and many other younger guys used the place very frequently. The Club seemed to be thriving off the back of that.

Perhaps as a result of that success they racked the prices up to the extent where I (now an airline pilot earning more than a Flt Lt) can't justify regular use of the place. I can get a hotel room of better quality than The Club, in the same area, for about half the price. Consequently I only used it once last year.

I feel they have been pricing themselves out of the market, and predictably, once again, you rarely see anyone under 40 there. The latest news from a fellow retired oficer who attended a dinner recently, was that The Club is now concerned that with the old-timers gradually fading away and with the RAF being cut back, there will be insufficient membership to support its future. The first comment is a natural truth. The second is a red herring. Encouraging greater takeup by currently serving junior officers is the key to the future of the club.

The RAF Club is great facility and I sincerely hope it prospers for many years to come. I think a better management strategy what is needed.

(If anyone knows the Air Crew Association, that organziation recently died, quite literally, because they failed to do enough to encourage a new generation of members - I would hate to see the RAF Club go the same way.)

[Pontius Navigator]

Biggus, agree except he might have been an AA. I know an ex-V-force flt lt who went as a flt lt.

[Al R]

Trash,

Income seems to be creeping ahead quicker than outgoings and total salary costs dropped last year (good to see occupational pension contributions up about 15% though ;) ).

http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/FinancialHistory.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=1108295&SubsidiaryNumber=0

Total membership up too.

[BEagle]

Some personal views:

1. The changes to the subscription policy w.e.f. 1 Jan 2012 for the over-65s (I am not one) are unreasonable, particularly for those who didn't retire as some multi-starred wheel.

2. The smaller rooms really are VERY small; people expect more in this day and age.

3. The weektime dress policy in the Cowdray Room discourages those who go out for dinner from having a pre-dinner sharpener or post-dinner drink in the bar. So instead people stay out and the Club loses their custom. No one is going to go out for dinner, then come back and put on a jacket and tie just to have a night cap in the Cowdray Room bar!

4. The Running Horse stops serving food too early (2015), the choice is often rather limited and the bar closes far too early - 2030, for heaven's sake! The fact that it is closed on Sundays and the only alternative is the rather formal Dining Room is very inconvenient for people arriving on a Sunday evening. It's also quite uncomfortable for even a light meal; the old 'Buttery restaurant' was far more comfortable. The body language of the Running Horse staff makes it pretty clear that you aren't really terribly welcome after about 2000.....

The Club needs to attract younger members; personally I don't consider that 'jeans (without rips and tears), clean trainers and sneakers' are ever acceptable in any public room, but I do consider 'a suit or jacket with smart trousers (not jeans), a collared shirt with tie and appropriate footwear' somewhat excessive for a quick G&T in the Cowdray Room before going out for dinner, or for having dinner. I doubt whether younger members really wish to appear in scruff order, but what on earth is wrong with 'smart casual' dress?

[LFFC]

Sad I know, but I've just been reading the Club's Spring newsletter. As Al R points out, the Club had been doing very well up to 2009, but 2010 won't be so good and the forecast flatlines due to lower projected membership numbers. The Trustees seem worried about the future, hence the withdrawal of Life Honorary Membership and frozen subscriptions.

I actually like the Club, even though I only stay there once or twice a year, and would be very sad to see it disappear. However, it really does need to move with the times and reflect the more relaxed standards found in the modern RAF Officers' Mess if it wishes to entice increased numbers of young serving officers to join and retain membership.

[minigundiplomat]

Perhaps it is time to extend membership to WO's and SNCO's.


Blue touchpaper lit - retiring now!

[BEagle]

minigundiplomat, they'll always be welcome in the RAF Club.....


.....once they've been commissioned as Officers.

[NRU74]

Tankertrash
You may actually benefit ...if you've been a member for 25 years and you are 65 - the Newsletter appears to say the sub is being reduced by 25% which may be better [at least for the time being] than being 'frozen'
I suspect that in due course the Club will have to operate like the Royal Scots in Edinburgh which operates a 'two tier' system. It's effectively a hotel open to the public.If you are a member or Reciprocal Member you get a discount on the tariff eg Joe Public pays £4 for a G+T you pay £3
My gripe would be that I've just missed the free Hon Life Membership by a whisker.
But....it's a superb location, fairly smart,food's not bad and when I joined, I have to admit it seemed to be full of boring old [email protected] now I am one !
O tempora O mores

[chopabeefer]

The RAF Club is a great facility and a wonderful and 'impressive' place to take non-RAF mates for a night away, without question. BUT...in the last 5 years I have tried no less than 16 times to book a room for a weekend (often at 4-5 months notice) and on every single occasion (I do not exaggerate) the Club was full, and I did not get a room. It is utterly pointless being a member of a Club which is unable to accommodate it's members. I wrote to the manager on 5 occasions to complain that as a member of 17 - 20 years standing (I am the first to admit that should not make a difference, by the way), I was unable to get a room. He suggested I stay in less busy times. Hardly the point Sir!!! It's supposedly a member's club, yet certain members have monopolized it and left the rest of us unable to use the facility. I am now in a position of some influence and I advise all junior officers i see (a lot) that the RAF Club is an elitist house full of retired senior officers who monopolize all the rooms. I suggest that membership is a complete and utter waste of money. Those who ignore me (and many do), have on several occasions returned to my desk to say (in effect) 'You were right - couldn't get a room'.

Great venue. Waste of money. Don't bother. Couldn't get a room in 16 attempts over 5 years - quite disgusting for the RAF Officers' Club, in my opinion. I loved the place the last time I stayed 8 years ago, and wish it were perhaps prioritised for serving officers, and further so for those on operational squadrons. Sadly it is not so. I am ashamed at how elitist and inaccesible this club is. I have cancelled my membership and would urge others to do the same.

[kiwibrit]

Hmm. retired for quite a while - but recently joined, notwithstanding not getting (quite rightly) the frozen subscription benefit of long-standing members. I thought it offered good value for money - primarily because of its location. Haven't used it yet. Hope it works out.

[Tankertrashnav]

You may actually benefit ...if you've been a member for 25 years and you are 65 - the Newsletter appears to say the sub is being reduced by 25% which may be better [at least for the time being] than being 'frozen'



Unfortunately, although if I tot it up I have been a member for well over 25 years, (12 years when serving) I have only been a member continuously since 1993, so looks I'll have to wait till I'm well over 70 till I get the 25% discount (I expect by then some new wheeze will have pushed the date back another 5 years, etc etc).

I'm starting to think that maybe I'll take chopabeefer's advice and cancel my membership. Quite frankly the rooms are substandard, the food is only so so, so spending well over £100 a year for the undoubted pleasure of having a gin and tonic in the Cowdray Lounge seems a bit excessive.

I'm emailing the club secretary with a link to this thread, with a request that he also points it out to the member of the board of trustees who authored the report in the newsletter.

[Fretus Pennae]

I suspect that some on this thread may be missing the point of joining/paying for a club in London.

Of course you can get a room for less cost, but not with the same cudos or atmosphere. I, for one, get shivers merely entering the building and marvelling at both the ambiance and the history that created such a place, with the attendant pride at knowing I have earned the right to be there by my own efforts, plus a reminder of the humbling reality of the legacy to which I, as a serving officer, have duty to live up to.

And it impresses the hell out of any guests - an effect a travel lodge is unlikely to achieve.

My subscription is secure - we need to maske sure today's new officers recognise the opportunity they are offered. Without support it will surely die, and that would be a loss for all of us.

[Tankertrashnav]

Whip round much appreciated Really Annoyed - I take Paypal ;)

I think Torque Tonight has rather proved the point - it an airline pilot earning more than a serving Flt Lt (£50k+) is finding it too expensive, what chance for those (and there will be plenty) who are having a harder time than I am?

Would you prefer the poor people went to the YMCA?

[Tankertrashnav]

Blimey is that Fred in the middle behind the counter, or is it a cardboard cutout? He's been there so long he can remember Pontius Navigator as an APO!

[Airborne Aircrew]

minigundiplomat, they'll always be welcome in the RAF Club.....


.....once they've been commissioned as Officers. That's incredibly arrogant coming from someone in a class, (Commissioned Officers), that has at least one class member, (the OP), who can't afford to be a member. I can guarantee you there are many SNCO's and WO's out there who can easily afford the price. Relaxation of the membership rules would help the club and therefore people such as the OP to enjoy their little luxury.

The only problem I see is the attitude of the current members to extending the "privilege" to the others is that none of the others would feel welcome despite the fact they will be saving your club. One of those "I don't want to be a member of a club that needs me as a member" situations.

Shame really... There goes another one of those institutions that defined the British.

Beagle:

While I'm sure it means nothing to you, you lost some respect with your comment above...

[BEagle]

Tankertrashnav - yes, that's Fred. Still going strong when I was last at the Club a few months ago.

Incidentally, ex-colleagues who were SNCOs or Master Aircrew used to recommend the Union Jack Club UJC Membership (http://www.ujclub.co.uk/membership.asp) . It looks very good indeed.

[minigundiplomat]

minigundiplomat, they'll always be welcome in the RAF Club.....


.....once they've been commissioned as Officers.


I think its a bit offside to expect them to drop their standards just to save your club, hmmm?

[BEagle]

airpolice - I've responded to the thread in question as you requested.

Out of interest, minigundiplomat, have you ever tried the UJC? If not, perhaps you should consider giving it a try.

[XL319]

Avoid VSC. I wasn't very impressed by the standard of the rooms. It has been a long time since any of them have had any sort of upgrade when I was there, however that may have changed since I visited. Just a word of warning the single rooms are very pokey:ooh:

[minigundiplomat]

Tried both. The surroundings and G n T's are better in the RAF Club, but the service better in the UJ Club, as is the beer.

Out of interest Beagle, have you tried your local Pub?

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

I stayed at the Victory Services Club (All ranks) at Marble Arch a few weeks ago. Not bad and a good location, although some rooms are definitely better than others. I met quite a few serving officers who were staying there. They said it was more relaxed than the RAF Club, cheaper membership and thought the food was good value.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Out of interest Beagle, have you tried your local Pub?

The reason the club in question is suffering is because the dinosaur mentality on display here is no longer the behaviour of the officer of today.

Out of uniform modern day young officers are able to socialise without looking down their noses at the hired help which is a real breath of fresh air compared with the classicly old school, but almost extinct T-Rex and his trench coat attitude that pervades this site with their endless WIWO blather.

Bloody civvy bedwetters the lot of them and they should simply let it go :ok:

[Roadster280]

This whole "class" thing has always bothered me.

Useless shiny-arse polyester uniforms that happen to have had a commission routinely trot out the "should have tried harder at school" nonsense.

Not everybody has the interest or ability to command. However, there are some awfully thick people in positions of command in the Services, and some awfully bright people in the "lower ranks". Granted, neither are universal.

However, to be looked down on by those that have held the Queen's Commission doesn't do that office any favours at all. Fortunately, this thread is a good indicator that times are changing.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Useless shiny-arse polyester uniforms that happen to have had a commission routinely trot out the "should have tried harder at school" nonsense.

One could, from your statement, then wonder why it is that a decades long member of their club can no longer afford to be a member of that club while people who never got or possibly wanted the Queens Commission could quite easily afford the dues without help from parents, squirrely old great aunts or blatant theft.

One will never know... But their club will wither and die as shall those who carry such silly airs and graces...

[jamesdevice]

as a disinterested outsider, can I suggest that maybe the way forward is for it to amalgamate with the RAC club? It would be cheap to do:only one letter to change on the stationery.

[Roadster280]

And in times gone by, the uniform :E

[bushveld]

Tankertrashnav:

"I'm emailing the club secretary with a link to this thread, with a request that he also points it out to the member of the board of trustees who authored the report in the newsletter".


Do let us know if you get a response. I think the emotions - pro and co - regarding the Club's policies etc have got a good airing on this forum and perhaps will be a "true" wake up call for the administration - if they are prepared to read it.

[TBM-Legend]

It's 1976 and being an uncultured colonial Air Force officer I arrived on the doorstep with a fellow officer after our long flight[s] from Malaysia [via Bangkok/Karachi/Bahrain] in our travelling clothes at 9am on a sunny Wednesday after being driven around London for an hour from Victoria Station [Q. cab driver; "have you been to London before?" A: "No!"].

Upon arriving at the club entrance we were both frog marched into the Secretary's office and dressed down for not dressing up! Well I thought then that one must bathe in a three piece suit not your birthday suite as is the fashion in the Antipodes.

Great stay....:ok:

[ExSp33db1rd]

I haven't visited for many years, it's a long ride from New Zealand, but remember on one occasion when working for my last, foreign, airline, flying over from Frankfurt for a day, and spending the night at the club.

I attended breakfast next morning wearing a jacket but with polo neck sweater, and was admonished by the Maitre 'd who informed me that 'gentlemen' were required to wear jacket and tie in The Dining Room - I had forgotten, and must admit that I do find that a bit OTT at breakfast - but complied, the only tie I possessed at the time being my uniform black one, and as I would have to change to fly back to FFT later that morning anyway, changed into full uniform to return to the dining room and complete my breakfast. Entering the room with four gold bars adorning my sleeve, and carrying the scrambled egg peaked cap under my arm caused the head waiter to almost wet himself - I enjoyed that, and had a splendid breakfast.

On another occasion I entertained youngest son, then attending London University, in the Running Horse, and whilst waiting for him downstairs with my other son got a telephone call to attend the front desk, where I was reminded that visitors had to adhere to the dress code.

I apologised to my son for not reminding him, and he had turned up in a scruffy sweater. I suggested that he stay there a couple of minutes, that I would collect his brother from downstairs and we would drink elsewhere, but the porter offered to find him a jacket and tie, and he eventually turned up in the bar wearing the tie around his polo neck sweater, and a black jacket over it - he looked a right clown, but met the rules - "good on 'im" - as the New Zealanders would say !

[BEagle]

....to be looked down on by those that have held the Queen's Commission....

I'm not sure whence you drew such an inference; there are no posts on this thread which include such comments. The Club has its membership criteria, as do others, and there is little likelihood of change. Change is perhaps needed regarding the dress code requirements if the younger element is to be encouraged to join.

[Whenurhappy]

Dress rules have relaxed a lot and the staff are generally a bit more pragmatic. In the cloakroom on the ground floor there is a wardrobe full of coats and ties to suit most styles – needed only for the Dining Room and Cowdray lounge now.

I have been a member for the length of my soon-to-finish RAF career and have seen the club improve constantly over the years. I took my foreign staff college syndicate and their wives for High Tea in the Cowdray Longue last year and they loved it - three-tiered cake stands, silver tea pots, the paintings of Messerschmitts being shot down - the works. And quite affordable, too.

During my 2 previous tours in Town I visited a number of other clubs in both professional capacity and by private invitation. Some, like the RAC are grander, others like the National Liberal Club are quirky (closed on weekends and smells of wee), In and Out has a nice courtyard and pool but haunted by military 'walts', and the Reform is stuffy and very expensive to maintain membership. The bedrooms of the RAF Club are generally a lot better than most other clubs too, I understand.

However one gripe I do have is the increasing cost of the rooms. I get back to London on duty fairly regularly and try to stay at the club - however two things militate this. Firstly rooms can be hard to come by, and secondly, when I try to book via DHRS the cost of the room only (they don't do a B&B rate) exceeds the Night Subsistence rate and thus I either have to get my 'budget manager' (in another country) to approve the uplift - no chance - or fork the difference out of my pocket. With the drastic cut in our pay and allowances, I can’t afford that so I end up staying at a Travelodge or similar, rather that supporting my Club.

There used to be a 'Serving in London on Duty' rate but that was dropped a few years back. I encourage the management to revise the rules and at least get some Serving members staying at the public expense, rather than lining the pockets of some multinational firm.

Secondly, there is a provision in the rules for Members of other London clubs to use our facilities and to book rooms when their clubs are booked out or closed. The result is that there have been some extremely odd characters with no Club connections (=RAF connections) using the Business suite and library, as well as booking rooms - to the detriment of RAF Club members attempting to stay there. The RAF Club has more bedrooms than most London Clubs (92), so it tends to be the default setting when the Clubs in Pall Mall (with an average of 40 rooms) are booked out. Perhaps this might be improving the cash-flow but I fear that this reciprocal arrangement is not reciprocated. On one occasion when I tried to book at the club (and it was full) I asked which other clubs in London I could use. The staff member didn’t seem to know. I rang several clubs that I was familiar with and they weren’t aware of the reciprocal ‘deal’ and I ended up staying at an Ibis Hotel near Aldgate. Yeurrch!

I have used both the Union Jack and the Victory Services Club. Both are excellent and affordable for accommodation – especially when using the UJC car park. The VSC is undergoing an extensive refurbishment programme at the moment and offers a very good PODL deal. We also held several offsites at both locations - UJC was considerably cheaper and the faciliteis were better. However I would not use them to entertain guests as they lack the lack the granduer of the RAF Club and the obvious RAF connections, although the bar at the VSC is rather chic (pity about the emblazered ex SNCO clientele who are glued to the bar!). Ooh, look at you!

Finally, Fred is a living national treasure. He always remembers me and asks after the family (we’ve stayed in the excellent family rooms when we’ve staged through London in the past). He’d be at least a Colonel in the KGB/SVR based on his knowledge of the RAF personnel ORBAT…

[newt]

Hi Beags!

Sounds like The Club is in a similar situation to the 1960's. A younger generation who were not interested and an older generation resistant to change. Back then the dress requirements were altered and a disco introduced. Add a compulsary membership at all officer training establishments and suddenly The Club was full!

This time, with a shrinking Air Force, they should look to the retirees. Many of whom have resigned due to the cost and difficulty of getting into central London. Maybe a country membership at reduced cost would entice some to return. Afterall, it seems odd that people who use the club every day pay the same subs as those who only use it once a year! I would certainly be interested in rejoining if the subs were say £50 a year.

Another area they should maybe look at is squadron reunions. Why do we attend them in pubs in central London but not in The Club? Atmosphere? Cost? Dress regulations? Surely they could attract some trade if they offered deals to hold them in the function rooms?

[Failed_Scopie]

Gents, a fascinating thread to which I humbly offer a couple of points: (i) I attend a Royal Corps of Signals (i.e. Air Formation Signals, Army Emergency Reserve and Princess Louise's Kensington) reunion dinner at the end of February each year. The RAF Club are kind enough to allow the Army to descend en masse and both the food and ambience are excellent (it is also very good value for money), and (ii) Beagle, I strongly suspect that your remark re. holding the Queen's Commission was fully intended to be humorous but clearly others did not take it that way and to my mind at least, it was a bit chippy.

[Whenurhappy]

Newt - I'm not sure that your assumption that 'younger' members are not interested in the club is correct . I portune that it is quite the opposite - when I was in London until 18 months ago, the club alsways seemed to have a lot of JOs using the facilities (generally only the rooms, to be fair) - as I did 20-odd years ago.

Additionally, there are many reunions, farewells and get-togethers held at the club (and very good they are too). But they are not cheap to attend and some orgnaisiers might feel it is inappropriate that ex-Non-commissioned personnel attend, or indeed might think that they will feel uncomfortable (on both counts I would disagree with this premise).

In due course I will be a retired member and although this cohort may help with modest cash-flow through subscriptions, but are less likely to be using rooms on a regular basis and spending up large in the Running Horse. I agree that the opening hours of that bar need to be expanded, inter alia

[teeteringhead]

Have just checked the online booking system and (as a member) I could get a basic single room (no en suite) for tonight for £61.50!

Seems pretty good price for Piccadilly and the "ambience" ...... surprised an airline pilot couldn't afford it!! ;)

[Halton Brat]

I've stayed out of this for long enough; I am dismayed to see the trend developing in this thread, which reveals a positively Jurassic mindset amongst some Ppruners. As a proud holder of the Queen's Non-Commission for nearly 20 of my 24 years in a light blue uniform, I find some of the attitudes & comments herein both amazing, and even insulting to the WO/SNCO cadre. I offer you gentlemen this, from someone who a) values & is proud of his time in the RAF, and b) made a very successful transition to civilian life 16yrs ago:

1) This is the 21st century, not the 1930's.
2) The British Raj declined some time ago.
3) Those of you who are retired: cherish your memories, as I do, but understand item 1) above, and bear in mind that the social stratification of a previous era may not reflect the social mores of the modern world (for good or ill).
4) Those of you who are still serving: don't believe your own publicity too much. It will hinder your inevitable transition to civilian life.

I sincerely hope that our American cousins on Pprune are by-passing this thread; the ridicule & scorn which would wing its' way eastwards on the Jet Stream would be simply too much to bear.

To the gentleman who was piqued by blazered ex-SNCO's at the VSC Bar; if these chaps are so proud of their Service that they dress so for gatherings or reunions, who are you to deny them this? You are breathtakingly arrogant, Sir.

I could continue on this topic for some time, but I must polish my Lordship's riding boots, whilst studying a book on Table Etiquette.

HB

[Clearedtoroll]

I am not sure the Club in is trouble... I have tried to book a weekend room on quite a few occasions in the last few years and not managed to get a room since 2004. I have been tempted to stop my membership on the basis the club seems oversubscribed and doesn't need my support, but for the fact the reciprocal arrangement with the Cavalry & Guards Club next door works quite well, and they serve breakfast in bed!

[Whenurhappy]

HB

I think that you are being a little precious!

Depending on who I am entertaining I might go to a bar, VSC, Wagga Mamas or the RAF Club. I don't begrudge chaps wearing blazers, Regtl/Sqn badges, berets and dodgy moustaches, but that doesn't mean that I am instantly drawn to spending drinking time with them.

As a corollary, not that long ago I went to an RBL Club after a Remembrance Service and was harangued by said chaps about falling standards across the Services and the RAF in particular. These guys had left the services many years ago and had virtually no operational experience between them, and absolutely no understanding of the modern services, or indeed, what being on ops means these days. They meant well, but were of a different generation. Similarly some of the old fogeys at the RAF Club I have littel in common with. Earlier this year I met one chap, a retired Sqn Ldr, who was critical about the number of medals that we are 'issued' these days, implying that we didn't earn them. Jealousy, more likely!

The immutable fact, at present, is that the RAF Club membership is largely limited to those who hold/held a Commission. Until that is changed (and that would require a major change in the constitution and founding documents - affecting any bequests and legacies, amongst other issues - and approval of the Charity Commissioners) club membership will remain self-selecting. If I want to drink with the chaps (and ex chaps) I can go to VSC or UJC - or the local RAFA club (well I might, if I was in the UK!). Should I wish to.

[Torque Tonight]

I could get a basic single room (no en suite) for tonight for £61.50!

Seems pretty good price for Piccadilly and the "ambience" ...... surprised an airline pilot couldn't afford it!! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

I look like a right cheapskate now! But I think you were lucky, Tettering.

I averaged about three nights there per month throughout my time as a Flying Officer. The prices were very reasonable and cheaper than any commercial alternates. At some point between then and now the there seems to have been a real price hike, far in excess of inflation. Maybe I need to stay in London at 'the wrong times' but the last few times I have used the Club it has cost me about double your figure, and about double the cost of a decent hotel room in central London on priceline.com. Therefore the RAF Club is no longer the first choice for every visit to London (as it once was) and instead it is a luxury for occassional use - no longer would I spend three nights per month there. Furthermore, like others have pointed out, the last few times I have wanted to use the RAF Club, there has been no availability and I have instead used the Chavalry & Guards next door or the Caledonian Club.

So if the place is fully booked and prices are high, how could they have a problem? The Charity Commission figure seem to show that their finances are healthy at the moment - as you would expect. I think there is a significant element of truth that the Club is being monopolized by the retired senior officers to the detriment of the younger members, and potential members. This is obviously good for the bottom line short term, but I think the management are beginning to realize that over-reliance on that sector, as the Rowley-Birkins gradually drop off the perch, will lead to a membership crisis in the future.

[Exascot]

On the matter of cost and income it must be noted in our Chairman's Report that serving members in1992 were 15,000, in 2010 we were down to 3,227. And this figure is obviously going to reduce. It is a very difficult situation.

Living abroad for the last 12 years I have probably averaged about one night a year at the club. For me it is an oasis in London. I can relax amongst 'my own'. Having spent 25 years living in five star hotels around the world you can't beat the traditional ambiance of our club.

As for subscription fees; for married couples it is a very good deal. My wife (also a retired officer) gets, I think, almost the same rights as myself without having her own subscription.

[jindabyne]

I have the utmost admiration for those of any generation who are or have been on active service, and continue to show my respect in a variety of ways. I have less time for those few who choose to denigrate the many who have had little or no 'operational' experience. Following WW2, they all wore their uniforms voluntarily, and that most were never exposed to enemy action does not detract from their readiness to do so in the professional manner of their day, often in difficult circumstances. Their relative lack of medals is thankfully a sign of a slightly more peaceful yesteryear, which can be regarded as partly due to their contribution.

That said, I side with those who favour changes that would reflect more 'acceptable' modern standards (eg dress code and opening hours), catering for both young and old. Maybe there should also be much more youthful representation and influence at Club Committee level?

And as elsewhere, like it or not, it's an Officers Club. That's not a Rowley-Birkins elitist view, it's fact, just as golf clubs are predominantly for golfers etc etc. If there are so many enviable aspirations for membership, the formula must be good -subject to some up-to-date tweaking. Also, the decision to open the doors to 'civilians' who have contributed notably to the RAF was financially well-founded, and the waiting list remains lengthy. But I suspect that is open to some criticsm in terms of room availability and unwelcome behaviour (and I don't mean wardrobe pee-ing or farting).

[ExSp33db1rd]

............surprised an airline pilot couldn't afford it!!

It's a myth - at least it was 40 years ago, in my era - that the hump on the 747 was designed so that the Captain could sit on his wallet.

[Heathrow Harry]

The RAF Club seems to be good value - the Chauffeurs is now nearly £1000 a year and you can't get a room there either because of a group who seem to live there 4 nights a week

The RAC does move a little with the times in regard to dress code - smart casual is allowed in some areas but the RAF has pleasanter staff

[Whenurhappy]

Jindy,

This argument about being a 'Returned Serviceman' versus a stay-at-home has been the subject of much angst amongst the ex-Service community in Australia and New Zealand. I'm a reasonbly patient person and have spent many hours over the years on 'engagement' activities to get the Air Power message across. I am also a published historian, drawing on personal recollections and offical archives, so I am used to dealing with old servicemen.

But to be confronted by some of crimson-faced buffer, looking like a Walrus, talking of 'fizzers' and 'the Glass House' and what some wee-soaked WO said in the NAAFI at RAF Middleton-on-the-Wold in Nineteen Canteen, who is then critical of the Air Force of today (and alludes that medals are too easily given) fails to gain my respect. He would have been a prat 50 years ago, and time hasn't been particularly forgiving! Several years ago I had lunch at the In and Out Club in St James's,as a guest of a US Embassy official. At the bar I was introduced to a middle-aged 'Flt Lt'. He was a bit evasive about his branch and service history, and it was only later that I learned, quite by chance, that he was an ex VR(T) Officer. He had been clearly 'bigging' it up at the In and Out, and exploiting it for commercial gain (he was in the financial services industry, selling pensions, or some-such). If he had been honest with me - and others, clearly - that he was a VR(T) officer, he would have gained my respect (I'm an ex ATC cadet, and proudly so). Instead, he came across as what our Army colleagues call a 'Walt'. There seemed to be a number of them hanging out at the Rag; perhaps the entry criteria is less descriminating...

Back on topic. I think that we all agree that the RAF Club will need to change and diversify to survive (and good luck to it). But the core, the ethos, has to be the support for members who are serving or retired officers. The problem is squaring that with having to run a multi-million pound business in central London. Not an easy task.

[Halton Brat]

"Wee-soaked WO said in the NAAFI"

Words fail me; I rest my case.

How very sad............

I'm going for a walk with the dog.

HB

[Heathrow Harry]

The real trouble would start if you let the Financial Community in - they are really a grim bunch and have no idea how to behave - the RAC bar can be a noisy, unpleasant place in the early evening

Far better to have the non-commisioned IMHO - at least they share the Service ethos

[Whenurhappy]

HB,

I hope you enjoyed taking the dog for a walk.

How about I said 'a wee-soaked Wing Commander in the Officers' Mess Bar' - it would be equally applicable. I really think you are reading too much into this; I was attempting to illustrate (clearly not enough to elucidate you) that there are some ex-SP who are just plain bores. They would be equally boring at the RAF Club, UJC, VSC, RBL, RAFA.....

Probably like me.

As an aside, 20 years ago as a Flt Lt I took a mate of mine who was a Cpl around the RAF Club (both of us wearing RAF Colours Blazers, if I recall). He just been promoted above me. Damn

Heathrow Harry - I agree totally, and that's why the rules for the Cowdray Lounge must not be relaxed vis a vis business papers, business meetings, briefcases and mobile phone calls.

[jindabyne]

I forgot to say that I'm a long-term fan of the place, having graduated from keen young sprog to knackered old fart (or young PITA to old PITA). I spend a fortune there every December and, aside from having to tolerate Foldy and his mean drinking habits, enjoy every minute. A handy bottle or two of Black Grouse (re-Foldy) overcomes the crticism of bar closing times. The aviation artwork is also reasonable -----

[Tankertrashnav]

Just a quick update - I've had a swift response from the club secretary, and they are already following the thread. They weren't too happy with the photo on P1, and in respect of the comments which accompanied it I must say I agree with them. Let's try and stick to the point guys and not get too personal, or this thread could go the same way as its predecessor. I see the mods have removed a couple of rather snide ad hominem posts directed at me - thanks for that, but as the originator of those posts is a serial offender in that respect I wasn't too worried by them.

I'll keep you posted.

[scroggs]

Frankly, I can't see the point of spending any more time in London than you absolutely have to, so perhaps my RAF Club membership was shaky from the word go. However, I have to echo others who say that it's extremely difficult to get a room if you're not in the clique of ex-Air Officer regulars who seem(ed) to monopolise the place, and, if accommodation is all you're after, there are nicer places to stay with better availability without paying too much more.

I'm not one of those who has friends that get married/re-married/buried in 'town', I'm not a retired senior officer, and my job doesn't require me to ever visit central London, so I couldn't see the point of continuing my membership and finally got around to cancelling the DD this year.. I was a member for about 33 years, stayed there once, visited maybe 10 times. Nice place; I hope it continues in some form or other.

[Wander00]

TTN - nothing wrong with the pic on P1, it's the "caption" or commentary with it. Or am I also getting very old

Getting my coat and stick. Dog is outside!

[Clearedtoroll]

I think if the staff in the picture on P1 saw the picture and caption, they might be a little offended. I'm not sure it was meant in that way and perhaps I am being uncharacteristically sensitive!

[1.3VStall]

I stayed there on Monday night. Could only get a "basic single", but having to pop along the corridor (in the nice, provided fluffy dressie and slippers) to the loo/shower is hardly an issue. £61.50 on Piccadilly is good value!

Popped down to the Running Horse and, for once, didn't find anyone I knew. However, had a reasonably priced drink and a meal in pleasant surroundings.

I probably stay there half a dozen times a year and, I agree, rooms are getting more difficult to book.

[STANDTO]

Having failed to commission after my legs gave way (ironic now considering my level of fitness 23 years on) I regret not being able to use the RAF Club. However, I've now been a member of VSC for nearly a year, and am using it this week again.

The refurbished rooms are superb, and the old ones not yet done have a sort of eighties mess nostalgia about them. The place is secure, you know what you are getting, and the restaurant and bar are fine too. Easy for Marble Arch for the Tube and shops.

I like being able to turn up in the Smoke, knowing what I am going to get, for a pretty competitive price. Gets my vote every time. Never tried the UJC, and was always a bit reluctant being south of the river.

[A2QFI]

I have had 2 very good meals at the RAF Club this year. One was for the survivors of my Cranditz Entry. 14 people and an excellent meal served in a private dining room and the other was a smaller less formal group of 6 and again, a very good meal and sensibly priced for the location and the quality of the food and service.

[L1011effoh]

I resigned my membership 10 years ago simply as there wasn't a membership category for people that lived a long way away and didn't get to London more often than once a year in a good year. It just didn't make economic sense and the 'kudos' of belonging didn't overrule the economic sense argument.

That said, I'd be sad to see it close.

[rolling20]

Chaps, nearly 30 years ago I was in the UAS. Loved the Officers mess and all it had to offer a poor stud.
Chopped, convinced I'd never be a pilot didn't want to join the RAF, or rather the RAF didn't want me.
Joined the City instead and got myself a PPL.

Many times I found myself in London after work, late, worse for wear and in need of a bed. RAF Club was a non starter, so it was a hotel or a cab home at a ridiculous cost , but it is Central London
Then they changed the rules! I have now been a member for two years and even got married there last year. In that brief time I have stayed there with my young family on several occasions and have always been made very welcome. I have never had any problems getting accomodation and find the staff and atmosphere most convivial.

Maybe I am looking at it with rose tinted specs, but it really is an honour and privilege to be a member. As for costs, I stayed in the Le Meridien ( other end of Piccadilly) three years ago and it was nearly three times the cost of the RAF Club. The food and drink isn't expensive at all by London standards. Ok, the dress rules could be more relaxed and a childrens playroom would be good, but you can't have everything. A colleague is an ex Life Guards Officer and he tells me the membership cost of the Cavalry club next door is twice as much.

Personally I think its good value, but then again I am not retired!

[1.3VStall]

r20,

I think the point many people are making is that it only makes economic sense to be a member if you use the facilities reasonably often.

My business activities take me to London often enough for me to use the Club every few weeks and, depending where I have been during the day, I sometimes pop in for a drink on my way back to Euston before wending my way home. It therefore makes sense for me to retain my membership and I have been a member for over 40 years.

However, once I retire I will have to review whether, particularly in the light of the revised subscription for "retirees", being a member continues to make sense. I live Oop North, so visits to London will be few and far between.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Next year when I retire if I ever ever have a hankering for membership of any military club or to post thousand upon thousand of WIWO drivel in here then Mrs SFFP has my full and written authority to have me committed.

There is absolutely no cost benefit for anyone once out of the service, or even for those who have never been in the bloody service to retain membership of any of these establishments as there is much better accommodation and eating readily available in London.

When I retire the military will be nothing more than a series of very very happy memories, but I will be a civilian and as such will be looking forward to getting on with my new life :ok:

[rolling20]

1.3 VStall,
Fully understand the point and like I said I'm not retired yet.
I just don't understand the neg comments on what is a pleasant venue. You would be hard pushed to find decent accomodation at the price the RAF Club charges in London.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Reading what others have posted some would say you would be hard pressed to find decent accommodation inside the RAF Club for the money they charge.

[Tankertrashnav]

Update

Just to let you all know, I wrote to Group Captain Tony Banks, the author of the article in the Club newsletter which provoked this discussion, with what I thought was a fair summary of the various points raised on this thread (favourable and unfavourable). He also has the link to the thread so he can read it in full if he wishes.

I have today heard from the Club Secretary, Peter Owen, that Gp Capt Banks has received the email, and its contents will be discussed at the next board meeting on 16th June.

After that I'm hoping for some feedback, and naturally I'll keep you informed.

TTN

[The Old Fat One]

...or to post thousand upon thousand of WIWO drivel in here...

See now you're a hostage to fortune. You'll not be able to give up pprune, it's way too addictive!

Still you can change your user name to save face and we will never know.

[sisemen]

There are likely to many retired officers living a great distance away who would only use the services of the club once a decade or so but who, nevertheless, would like to retain a link - just in case!

Perhaps Tony might care to have a think about a much, much reduced subscription to take account of this situation.

With plans to visit the UK in 2013 for my training entry's 50th reunion the ability to stay at the Club and introduce my wife to the genteel delights of a British London club would be invaluable.

[Argus]

Sisemen, old chap, assuming you dwell under Capricorn, you could always join an Antipodean Club (such as the Naval, Military and Air Force Club of South Australia) that has reciprocal membership rights with many UK, European and North American clubs, including the establishment at 128 Piccadilly.

Membership - Naval, Military and Air Force Club of South Australia (http://www.navmil.org/layouts/mp_standard/Template.aspx?page=Membership)

[Exascot]

There are likely to many retired officers living a great distance away who would only use the services of the club once a decade or so but who, nevertheless, would like to retain a link - just in case!

Perhaps Tony might care to have a think about a much, much reduced subscription to take account of this situation.



I will second that. And, thank you for your action TTNav.

On my last very rare visit we couldn't get a room and we were put into The Caledonian Club where ladies were not allowed into the bar. Needless to say neither was I by my wife :{

[Tankertrashnav]

Perhaps Tony might care to have a think about a much, much reduced subscription to take account of this situation.


One of the points I covered in my letter. I thought that at around £50 (currently £131), a lot more retired officers living a long way from the capital might be tempted to take up "country " membership, with maybe room occupancy restricted to a certain number of days a year.

Blimey Exascot , amazed that places like The Caledonian Club still exist! Do the men have to wear skirts (sorry, kilts) to make up for the lack of ladies?

[Sam Dodger]

A "country membership" category is long overdue. If the Club wishes to retain the membership of retiring members and encourage those "oop north" and us "out west" to pop in occasionally I am sure that apart from the principle of the matter the trustees could come up with such a scheme. Any reduced subscription rate could maybe be offset by a slighthty higher accomodation charge which would still be good value for the location and quality that the club offers.

[Exascot]

Blimey Exascot , amazed that places like The Caledonian Club still exist! Do the men have to wear skirts (sorry, kilts) to make up for the lack of ladies?


'In the public rooms, gentlemen are required to wear suits or jackets with ties and ladies to conform to the same standard.'

It actually doesn't mention kilts in their rules (above) but there again it doesn't mention trousers either :ooh:

All I know is that a certain little lady will not be staying there again.

It is however a splendid establishment.

[BEagle]

A "country membership" category is long overdue. If the Club wishes to retain the membership of retiring members and encourage those "oop north" and us "out west" to pop in occasionally I am sure that apart from the principle of the matter the trustees could come up with such a scheme.

How would you define 'country membership' limits though? Even if you said '100 miles from London' (or whatever), there'll always be someone living 99.9 miles away who would be disadvantaged by such a ruling.

Nevertheless, the Club must not become a 'London-centric' institution.

(But do we really want to encourage FNMs to come up to Town? :E )

[Airborne Aircrew]

Allow an NCO to help you all out... :E

Membership need not be based on distance. A person who regularly travels from Edinburgh would benefit unfairly. Surely, it can be charged by use with an inverse formula to allow for those who rarely if ever visit. Pulling numbers from the air, (the board will know what it needs to sustain itself), let's say that a standard membership is £100pa. For that you get unlimited use of the club and can book rooms whenever they are available. Each time you enter the club you must "sign in" at the door, (maybe you can be given a Membership Card that can be swiped to save time, effort and staff intervention). Each subsequent year, your dues are reduced from £100 by £10 for each visit less than 8 you made to the club the previous year leaving someone who did not visit at all with a £20 bill. That would be affordable to maintain a membership and should you use it 20 times that year your bill will go back to £100 the next year. To discourage those who would let membership lapse because they are too cheap to pay the £20 the board could institute a "lapsed membership" surcharge of £100 on the first year of a returning member's dues.

As I say the numbers are pulled from the air but it makes some sense. The club would receive a minimum of £20pa from people who never use the facilities, (thus not making dues a punitive burden for those who wish to be members but can rarely avail themselves), and a varying amount each year from those who use it infrequently up to £90pa and £100pa from the regular users. Since the amount you pay each year is dependent upon the previous years use then changes in personal circumstances automatically adjust to fit.

You don't need to thank me just PM me for the address to send my cheque... ;)

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

Perhaps the 'country membership' could be on a sliding scale that reduces the annual subscription the further away from London you live?

Absolutely no connection to the fact that I live in Aberdeenshire...

[Tercarley]

I belong to the Phyllis court Club in Henley on Thames as an o/seas member which has a reciprocal agreement with the RAF club so cancelled my subscription and use that facility when I want to go there. I love the exSpeedbird remark. I used to belong to the same 2 airlines as him and wish I had thought of doing what he did when he was last there - the uniform!!!!! Mind you whilst wearing my uniform to go to work on a provincial railway station once I was asked what time the train for so and so got in and I replied that I didnt know and was told by the person who asked me that she was going to report me to the Station Master for insubordination. I wonder if she thought that 4 gold stripes and a pair of wings on my uniform was indicative of a station porter. Sorry for going off thread!!!!!











1

[sisemen]

Argus - you could always join an Antipodean Club (such as the Naval, Military and Air Force Club of South Australia)

With an entrance fee of $939 plus an annual sub of $470 for a 'country' member it would almost be worth it for a West Aussie to get a first class flight to London, go to the RAF Club in person and empty my wallet on the front counter. And with the value of the Oz dollar currently cutting my RAF pension virtually in half the likelihood of spending dosh in SA is somewhat unlikely. :\

[Melchett01]

As much as I enjoy staying at the RAF Club, not having had a bad experience in over a decade, I must qualify that statement with the fact that I have only stayed at the Club on a handful of occassions in the past 12 years having been unable to get a room there on almost all recent attempts to book. So much so, that when I recently spent the weekend in London with friends, we automatically discounted the Club on the grounds that as we rarely manage to get in as individuals, there was likely to be no chance for 4 of us collectively, so we went to The Cumberland instead and got exactly what we wanted, when we wanted.

And although the price is quite good for Central London, I really think that the days of single rooms with facilities down the corridor are a little old fashioned in the 21st century and will almost certainly put off people used to at least having a reasonable sized bed and basic facilities on hand. This isn't basic training, and I think to remain competitive, then a baseline standard of rooms really has to be considered rather than simply titivating old tired rooms.

Finally, whilst I notice that the Club has introduced an online booking system which allows you to check availability, I still can't help but feel that something must be done to mitigate the perceptions of many younger serving members that the Club is dominated by retired senior and air officers who have the luxury of being able to book months in advance. It really would be a huge step forward if a proportion of the rooms were set aside for current serving personnel who don't necessarily know whether or not they will in the country next week, let alone be able to arrange their diaries months in advance. That would be an acknowledgement of the operational climate and tempo of operations that current serving members are enduring, and would be a nod towards addressing their specific needs. Failure to at least look at the issue of retired vs serving availability will only further alienate those serving members who are already frustrated, with the likely effect of continued declining membership. In many cases, I suspect inertia is the only thing keeping many serving members on the Club's books.

[Pontius Navigator]

the luxury of being able to book months in advance. It really would be a huge step forward if a proportion of the rooms were set aside for current serving personnel who don't necessarily know whether or not they will in the country next week, let alone be able to arrange their diaries months in advance.

Holding back a few rooms might be a good idea.

Once I was delayed in UK before RTU and shared a twin room with a Gp Capt also caught short. Another time I was able to use the club next door. I was in town and caught when 7/7 shut London; Mrs PN was able to book me a room.

As for arranging your diary; I learnt years ago to book early and cancel late. Unfair maybe but that was the system. Now the book early can be months early; anyone booked for the Olympics yet?

[Jumping_Jack]

I think Melchetts comment about 'inertia' keeping people is probably a good one. Certainly when the subs were automatically taken from my pay it kept me as a member (as I never actually got round to cancelling!). However, now that the automatic deduction from pay has been binned it has effectively cancelled my membership by default. I'm a little torn, it was nice to have that feeling of membership but the sums don't really add up. For the number of years I haven't stayed in the Club my annual membership could have paid for some very nice digs in a more modern and convenient accommodation.

J_J

[Basil]

Tankertrashnav
Blimey is that Fred in the middle behind the counter, or is it a cardboard cutout? He's been there so long he can remember Pontius Navigator as an APO!
I'll be very sorry to see him go. He's one of the last who understands the ethos of the club. Perhaps I'll go before he does ;)

rolling20,
IIRC, membership of the C&G varies from £150 to £650.

Tankertrashnav, I understand your wish to have an open discussion of the RAFC but it IS a private club and, regrettably, there are always those who are unable to contain themselves. If this airing attracts new members then well and good. Meant to bring it up at a BBQ on Saturday with an ex VR and senior trainer and forgot.
There's always the club's own discussion forum.

There was some mention of The In & Out. Is it still operating as a club?


May I ask the poster to remove the caption to the picture in post #19

[SaddamsLoveChild]

I too got shivers down my spine on entering it but I have let my membership relax for two reasons. The service which I did not find welcoming last year on either the telephone or in person when I popped in for apre-dinner sharpener. In the last 9 years I have never been able to get a room when I wanted one and when I delved into it I found that some on the mgt staff give preferential treatment to the retired members as they believed wrongly that those who were serving could go elsewhwere to other messes in the city. I was even asked if I had tried the officers mess at Uxbridge by one member on the front desk. It was this that made me give up my membership and advised those going through Cranwell to do the same when ever they came on a stn visit.

It will be a sad loss but they need to get those serving in the door and remind the old ones that they are just that - retired members.

I give it 5 years before its gone...............and as an ex knocker I do not believe it should be opened up to SNCO Cadre. It is an Officers club and Beagle is right.

[Tankertrashnav]

May I ask the poster to remove the caption to the picture in post #19


Basil, as the OP I have done what I should have done right away and used the "report" button on the left and asked the Mods to deal with it, which they have done pretty swiftly. Pity the picture has gone too, as it was rather a good one, but at least the obnoxious comments are no longer there.

Btw The In and Out (The Naval and Military) moved to St James in 1999, but as of last year nothing had come of plans to re-open the old place as a hotel or whatever. Pity, it's a magnificent location.

In and Out Club on the market as sale fails | Business (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-business/article-23893249-in-and-out-club-on-the-market-as-sale-fails.do)

[Basil]

Tankertrashnav,
Thanks, I wondered what was going on.
There are a few other empty buildings along Piclidicly which would seem to be prime locations for something or other.

[Tankertrashnav]

Gentlemen, may I remind you about what happened to the previous thread? http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/419756-128-piccadilly-2.html. Pointless bickering got that one closed, let's not see that happen again please?

[Heathrow Harry]

Hmm - try booking a meeting there - it seems to be packed for months ahead

[Tankertrashnav]

Further to post 144, I have received a lengthy reply from Gp Capt Tony Banks. It has come in the form of an actual snail-mail letter, not email, so I cant give you a link to it, but I will do my best to summarise the points he made.

Dress - The committee is going to review the rules on wearing ties, as there is a tendency for people to dispense with ties at work, even when wearing a suit.

Running Horse - Allied to the previous point, they are going to look at the possibility of keeping the Running Horse open later than at present, as even with present rules members may use this bar in more relaxed dress than other public rooms.

Room Bookings - A new software system for room bookings will enable the club to track members room requests and give them priority if possible on their next request if they have been disappointed in a previous one. Occupancy rates currently stand at 80% over the year, with January and August tending to be quieter months.

Membership Fees - Apparently newly-commissioned officers now pay an annual membership fee of £5 (sic) for their first five years! All serving officers thereafter pay half a day's pay, while retired officers pay £131 p.a. The committee thinks this last figure represents good value for money, however this means that they are paying more than all serving officers up to the rank of Air Commodore. (Serving Group Captains please note - I am subsidising your RAF Club membership!).

Country Membership - Apparently the committee have considered this in the past, but they consider that any increase in revenue they receive from increased membership would be more than offset by the reduction in membership fees received from members who are currently paying the full fee but would immediately benefit from the lower fee for country membership. They also felt that it would be unfair to those members who currently live close to or in London but who do not use the club regularly. They do not think there is any likelihood of a reduction in fees for retired officers.

Well all I can say is - I tried! It rather seems that it is going to be business as usual, with few of the suggestions made throughout the thread meeting much favour. If you feel strongly about anything then why not contact the club yourselves? They at least appear willing to listen, if not actually to make any changes!

btw I have just made a room reservation for a weekend in December, and while I was able to get a room ok, a lot had already gone, and I couldnt get the actual type of room I wanted (large double).

TTN

[mfaff]

Hmm,

Interesting... for whatever reason the times I have been there its been pleasant experience, with the front desk staff polite and helpful.

Dinner there of Friday was great...and no ties needed!

[Pontius Navigator]

Reservations have always been an issue though that said only once have I had to be accommodated in the club next door. I have managed no-notice bookings once when my flight back to unit was delayed and rather than spend 3 days or more in Gateway I was able to stay in the Club. After 7/7 Mrs PN was able to book me a room.

Last year we had a mutual screw up in bookings - I booked (or thought I had) 3 rooms but they only reserved 2. They were able to provide a 3rd at the desk.

I am sure there used to be be a limited time for reservations - 3 months or so - which was of some benefit to out-of-townies working up North but the biggest benefit was book early cancel late.

Now the unlimited (?) time at which you can book really benefits retirees like myself who can plan (and do) up to 2 years in advance. These early bookings are also essential when attracting overseas visitors from reciprocal clubs who may wish to get their arrangements secured years in advance.

[Legalapproach]

I needed to stay in London at short notice last week - a room was available and the price was half what I could have got at a hotel through something like Last Minute.com (having read this thread I had a look to make a comparison). This pretty much saved my annual membership fee. I've always found the Club very helpful and if Mrs Approach needs to stay in Town she feels happier there than in a hotel.

If I looked for a criticism the Running Horse and bar meals could be available later into the evening

[Exascot]

TTN, thank you for all your efforts.

The biggest bonus personally would be the Running Horse staying open later and food available later there.

Dress - well I guess this is a 'sign of the times' personally I always wear a tie in town but the younger Royals and our PM seem to dispense with them frequently in public.

Country membership - OK,fair enough, I will still maintain my membership.

[spurnhd]

I was an early joiner as a result of a kind invitation from the Station Commander at RAF Church Fenton sometime in 1965. We student pilots were informed that the RAF Club had to be saved and we were the boys to do it. Apparently the Club was doing its best to persuade the retired Air Marshals to go somewhere else and let the young ones have a look in. It was explained that we could join at a reduced rate and any APO who didn't want to join could explain himself to the beak later! Since I was not then an angry young man (I am now definitely an angry old man), I did as I was told (sorry, I mean I could not resist such a wonderful offer) and duly joined. Over the years, I have remained loyal, paying my dues and occasionally visiting the Club. I have seen it improve considerably since the 1960s and I think it's a Club worth belonging to. It has a peaceful (mostly) and smart ambience and the food is occasionally quite good. The rooms are very presentable and no smaller than some top notch hotels I have visited in London. The staff are now very pleasant (I have forgiven the Italian waiter who asked me to leave the dining room on a boiling hot day in 1981 because I wasn't wearing a jacket and tie to breakfast). The Club has always been surrounded with controversy concerning dress, cost, room availability, children, denim blah, blah, blah. I am amazed that any serving officer would not wish to join and as for worries over affordability - well words fail me! RAF officers have always been paid a salary ranging from 'moderately good' to 'jolly good', dependent upon the particular time of service and of course rank achieved (I just snuck into the senior officer band when they weren't looking). Although some ex-officers who retired many, many years ago may be short of the readies, I think the rest of us can afford 130 quidlets a year. The Royal Air Force is getting smaller and we ought to try a little harder to keep some of the things of value in a world (and country) which is disappearing down the plughole faster than a Lightning on heat. To those still serving who do not value the RAF Club may I say that you very well might when you leave the RAF and we'll all miss it when it's gone. Here endeth the lesson, please all stand!

[jindabyne]

Well said spurn - sums things up to a tee!

[Wander00]

Spurn Head - joined same time after ditto intro at Cranditz. Resigned reluctantly when I virtually stopped going to London, and in emergency I had 2 sons and a brother there! Miss it though. And Tony Banks continues to do a great job (last seen in Malvern after a School Speech Day some years back)

[Bill Macgillivray]

We can all moan (and do) but I think that you have got it right, spurn. There will always be something that is not right but overall I have found the Club has shown improvement in the many years that I have been a critical serving and retired member! Only use it a couple of times a year but find it very comfortable and a place that I can show to guests from overseas, they find it amazing!!:ok:

[EESDL]

Had booked a couple of 'Park View' rooms for my family visit to London (we don't get out much!) several months in advance - did the usual confirmation etc only to find upon arrival that the new booking system had deleted my preferences requests - staff handled it very well and although I didn't get my room with a view I was allocated suitable rooms to make up for the error......
four happy-ish campers and a great night was had by all - with the added commotion of returning from the West End to find 128 evacuated - meaning we had to pop off for another couple of drinks whilst the emergency services sorted it out!

leaking fridge juice apparently!

great facility - just wished I had the opportunity to use it more.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

............and as an ex knocker I do not believe it should be opened up to SNCO Cadre. It is an Officers club and Beagle is right.

No chips, no attitude and no envy but for me that sums up everything that is wrong with today's Royal Air Force. We strive for PC but the class society still exists and the "hyacinth boo kays" attitude as exhibited above is just wrong.

[Exascot]

We strive for PC but the class society still exists

Of course it does and rightly so. If a SNCO wishes to join the Royal Air Force club all he/she has to do is obtain a Queen's commission it is as simple as that. There are no restrictions on that these days you can even be gay :*

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

If a SNCO wishes to join the Royal Air Force club

Reading through this thread about high membership costs, poor service, poor availability, outdated dress regs etc etc why on earth would any SNCO wish to join the RAF Club :confused:

[jindabyne]

SFFP

No chips, no attitude and no envy

Oh really?

It seems to me that a person who repeatedly expresses critical views about an organisation of which he has no right to membership and presumably no intimate knowledge ("reading" apart), and lives and works with those that do, must possess at least one of those traits.

Reading through this thread about high membership costs, poor service, poor availability, outdated dress regs etc etc why on earth would any SNCO wish to join the RAF Club

Suggest you read more carefully to ascertain a more balanced view.

Recently there was a function at the Club where ex-SNCO colleagues were invited. There was no whiff of anything other than pleasantness, and as with all other guests that I've invited previously, their comments were unanimously complimentary. I hope that one day you have a similar opportunity - but don't bother to comment, I can guess your reaction already.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

I can guess your reaction already.

Jin,

No you can't, in fact you could not be wider of the mark :ok:

[GGR]

So lets set the scene........SNCO's all sitting comfortably at the bar swapping yarns, in walks SAC Bloggs........light the blue touch paper....

I'll get my coat

GGR

[Airborne Aircrew]

I do believe it's SAC Bloggs' round...

After all, it is the Royal Air Force Club not the Royal Air Force Officer's Club... :E

[Haraka]

After all, it is the Royal Air Force Club not the Royal Air Force Officer's Club...

It will be when there's only one of us left.

[jindabyne]

;) --------------

[Exascot]

:zzz: ------------------

[Airborne Aircrew]

It will be when there's only one of us left.

That's the best you could do... Time to let the rest of us in there... Liven up that bar a bit when you're all sat around too scared to talk lest you split an infinitive and suffer the career destroying contempt of the other patrons... :rolleyes:

[diginagain]

It will be when there's only one of us left.

Not long to go, then.

[Tankertrashnav]

Liven up that bar a bit when you're all sat around too scared to talk lest you split an infinitive


I think you'll find that should be "all sitting around", AA, old chap.

;)

[Airborne Aircrew]

Been in the US too long... What can one say... :O

[GGR]

Remember the Monty Python sketch describing who looks down on or indeed up to?

Simlarities abound.

GGR

[diginagain]

Remember the Monty Python sketch describing who looks down on or indeed up to?

Would that be the 'Monty Python' sketch featuring Ronnie Corbett, Ronnie Barker and John Cleese as shown on The Frost Report in 1966?

[Whenurhappy]

I have enjoyed using the club for many years, although (as I mentioned in earlier posts) I do find it frustrating that serving officers can't get a room within the MOD night subsistence rates (B&B) and typically end up in some sh!tty hotel near Victoria Station or on the Bayswater Road

On a related issue, I have received a number of emails from a disgruntled member highlighting the peripatetic members of other clubs who appear to use the club at will, paying little or no heed to dress or behaviour rules – and hogging the internet terminals in the Business Suite. I was in the Club last week when I was back in the UK for a job interview and I encountered a rather odd character in the Business Suite – scruffy dress, long hair, no tie - and tying up the only working termional Probably a retired 2 star…has anyone else encountered this problem?

[Willard Whyte]

A scruffy transvestite eh? Perhaps there was a concert party staying.

[Basil]

long hair, no tie
Sorry - Tie not required, hair since trimmed :ok:

Like it or not, The RAFC is the RAF Officers' Club. Lord Cowdray bought the lease for us in, IIRC, 1918 and we purchased the freehold about twenty years ago.

Nevertheless, our private rooms are available for exclusive events. I recently met some corporals in the corridor.
Bas: "RAF Regiment?"
Cpl: "No, RAF Police."

Bas: "Oo er." Retreats to bar :)

[GGR]

Oops it would indeed.....thanks for the correction. I will look up to you in future :-)

GGR

[brakedwell]

I have enjoyed using the club for many years, although (as I mentioned in earlier posts) I do find it frustrating that serving officers can't get a room within the MOD night subsistence rates (B&B) and typically end up in some sh!tty hotel near Victoria Station or on the Bayswater Road

It's a shame the Gremlin Club is no more. It was in Craven Hill Gardens, just off the Bayswater Road. Thirty bob a night including breakfast and the bar opened when the pubs shut at 3pm. The food was excellent and so was the crumpet. Mind you that was in 1962:ok:

Seriously it opened during the war for Allied Aircrew. I preferred to stay there rather than the RAF Club, especially with a young or not so young lady in tow!

[jindabyne]

AA

Stay there -

[Really annoyed]

Bas: "RAF Regiment?"
Cpl: "No, RAF Police."

Bas: "Oo er." Retreats to bar

Bas: "RAF Regiment?"
Cpl: "No, RAF Police."

Bas: "Oh scuffers? I told my mate you didn’t look like real Corporals." Retreats to bar

[Corporal Clott]

As an ex JNCO, ex officer, now Commercial Pilot, I resemble that last remark!

CPL Clott

[Basil]

I told my mate you didn’t look like real Corporals
Yea, right; they'd all had a few drinks and I'm not that brave.
Not for nothing was the pub nearest the station out of bounds to officers :ouch:

Argosy FE doing walk-round approached by Army officer.

AO: "Staff Sergeant!"
AFE: "I'm a Flight Sergeant, Sir."
AO: "If you were in the Army you'd be a Staff Sergeant."
AFE: "No, Sir; if I were in the Army I'd be a Brigadier!"

[diginagain]

Banter aside, I hope you manage to turn the Club's fortunes around. My brother held his wedding reception there following the service at St Clement Danes. Like the church, it's an asset that you should cherish.

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

AO: "Staff Sergeant!"
AFE: "I'm a Flight Sergeant, Sir."
AO: "If you were in the Army you'd be a Staff Sergeant."
AFE: "No, Sir; if I were in the Army I'd be a Brigadier!"
18th Jul 2011 21:51


The old ones are the best !!

[Whenurhappy]

I think that there are some on this thread who believe that the RAF Club is on it's knees. It is not. Financially it is strong and they are attempting to address future membership issues. In spite of the hassles of trying to get accommodation there (especially for serving members on duty) it's a great venue, great atmosphere and a suitably grand place for events. I've attending two wedding receptions there and they have eclipsed almost anything I have been to at commercial locations. I have been to many dinners there over the years and given the setting, the service and the food - and the costs - it takes a lot of beating.

Some have expressed concerns about the staff. If these are current, valid (and, dare I say not prejudiced) concerns take them up with the Club management. For those of you who have raised issues of the nationality of the staff, well, you clearly haven't been to many venues in London - other Clubs, pubs or restaurants - in recent (say, the alst 20) years!

[teeteringhead]

I'll add my vote to Whenurhappy's. It's not perfect but the Rocking* Horse is still the cheapest pub in Piccadilly (and yes,it would help if it were open later).

I use it pretty regularly for accommodation, both for work and play :E, and have rarely (never say never!) had problems booking accomm.

Functions are good - went to a formal-ish one last month, and am very much looking forward to my Godson's Wedding Reception in September (there goes what little is left of my incognito ....).

In sum: not perfect, but for what you get (if that's what you want) it represents VFM IMHO. (Sorry for T & FLAs!)

* for Exascot below - a pet name, (ahhhhhh) not a typo - I've called it that for years

[Exascot]

Rocking Horse Is this a typo or a nickname that I am not aware off?

As previously posted by me I totally agree with later opening hours.

[1.3VStall]

Exasccot,

Just delete ock and insert unn and you'll have it!:)

[Exascot]

It could be 'rocking' after a few or the tube train goes underneath :confused:

[Basil]

AARON O'DICKYDIDO,
What? Had you heard that one before? ;)

[Grumpy106]

I must agree with those supporting the Club. Mrs Grumpy and I stayed there a couple of weekends ago and it was excellent. The service in the Dining Room is what we used to get in Officers' Messes before CRL and the staff are polite and couteous, no matter whether English is their first language or not. A friend of mine paid £160 per night for a room at the Victory Services Club, which is neither as grand nor as well located as the RAF Club; I paid £165 per night for a room in the RAF Club with a view of the park. Whenever we are in London we use the Club and will carry on doing so. It is also a very good place to hold meetings (£20 per person for the room and a brunch buffet) and impresses the hell out of civvy friends.

[Crashed&Burned]

I use the RAF Club every week for meetings, discussions and sometimes just to relax and find it abolutely great. Once the staff get to know you, they greet you by name and generally make you feel wanted and a little bit special.

The accommodation is very popular, hence it can be sometimes difficult to get a room, but that's a reflection of its success and, as perviously stated, it is just not possible to increase the number of rooms, given the Club's structure and location. By the way, the conversion of the staff quarters on the 5th floor to become guest rooms has resulted in some really super new accommodation but I doubt any more can be added.

In terms of value, if you don't use it, you'd be better off not paying for it and that applies to the RAF Club or anything else. For my part, as a regular user, it obviously makes commercial sense and when I have used the bedrooms, the price I have paid is about a third of nearby hotels of similar standard (and, yes, I have stayed in some of them too on occasion).

All in all, I like the Club, find it good value and hope it continues ad inf.

C&B :)

[good finish]

I use the club regularly and find it very good.
The one suggestion I have made with no success is to convert the two squash courts to something of interest/benefit to most members.
The facility is large and could be used as a gym/swimming pool/snooker room/family room etc.
Any views?

[Really annoyed]

and generally make you feel wanted and a little bit special.

Aww bless. I didn't realise you officer types were so sensitive. It is a shame though and somewhat sad that you have to pay somebody to make you feel wanted. Were you bullied at Public School? Did your parents make full use of their CEA to close you away in some private school so they could get on with their lives without the embuggerance factor of having you around? I feel really sad now, usually I am annoyed but you have touched a chord in me and I feel for you.:rolleyes: Are you receiving counselling?

[Basil]

I think a lot of our comment would be more effectively directed to the RAFC in-house forum where several of the items raised here in public are already addressed.

[jindabyne]

The other day, some in the local were bemoaning Governments' closure policy over mental hospitals and the consequence of having people walking the streets that shouldn't be. I think I've just identified one (not you Basil!)

BTW Basil, I think you'll find that's sort of been taken care of in an earlier post - by Tankertrashnav at Post 144.

[Really annoyed]

The other day, some in the local were bemoaning Governments' closure policy over mental hospitals and the consequence of having people walking the streets that shouldn't be.

Don't worry yourself because that is why the RAF Club has survived for so long, taking in all of those who were released too early.

[sisemen]

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/chipchip.jpg

....................

[Exascot]

Yes indeed Sisemen. That is another reason we really can't allow these fellows into our club.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/32684975/chip.jpg

[Whenurhappy]

RA - I wish you would keep your distorted and somewhat cruel opinions to yourself, or perhaps a more appropriatw venue - Arrse, E-Goat, or perhaps EDL. Clearly, you've never had to make the CEA/Career either/or decision. Oh, and I support ther other posters - I'm pleased that I won't run into you at the Club as I embark on my second career in the City.

[snagged1]

@Good finish
Partly agree.....
Keep one squash court as there is a great round of games within the bath cup and good to have social ties to other clubs
For the second court, would agree, a small gym facility would be really great

I love the club, superb facility and miles cheaper than anywhere else to stay nearby (even other clubs). The bars (various) and dining room are great. Long may it continue!

[Basil]

Ah, thank you, jindabyne. Great minds and all that ;)

What I really mean is to ask if it is desirable that we air private club matters in public - engendering, e.g., a couple of recent postings?

[Tankertrashnav]

I shouldnt worry about them, Basil, we can live with them. For example, if RA thinks the average RAF officer is an ex public schoolboy, he has probably never got nearer to the RAF than watching The Battle of Britain. Even in the 70s, thinking back to my own squadron I would say that less than 10% were ex-public school and I guess the figure is if anything lower now.

Let him have his fun - water off a duck's back!

[ShyTorque]

Aww bless. I didn't realise you officer types were so sensitive. It is a shame though and somewhat sad that you have to pay somebody to make you feel wanted. Were you bullied at Public School? Did your parents make full use of their CEA to close you away in some private school so they could get on with their lives without the embuggerance factor of having you around? I feel really sad now, usually I am annoyed but you have touched a chord in me and I feel for you. Are you receiving counselling?

Very nice. Did posting that make you feel slightly more adequate? :rolleyes:

[SOSL]

Posted this on new thread which was understandably closed after a post by dear old Siggie. So here it is on this thread:

Haven't seen much good news about the Club on the forum.

It is the most fantastic amenity for RAF Officers (and all other entitled people), in London.

It is, without exception, the least expensive and the most stylish place to stay on Piccadilly.

I have used the Club for 40 years and I have never been unable to book a room when I needed one.

Whenever I and/or my family have stayed in the club we have been treated with courtesy and even kindness by the staff.

The standard of food served in the dining room and in the Running Horse is first class.

The bedrooms and public rooms have been continually refurbished, over the last 15 years, to a high standard, showing both good taste and utility.

It is also a safe place in central London and has facilities for changing into whatever clothes you need to wear for an evening out.

In my view it is an amazing asset for those of us who could benefit from its superb facilities.

Yrs SOS

[Whenurhappy]

I used the Club a couple of weeks ago to entertain some Foreign Johnnies visiting London for DSEi at Docklands. Once again, I treated them to High Tea in the Cowdray Room. It went down a treat*, and I'm sure left the impression that we all take high tea like that. But then we do, don't we?

Seriously, this form of soft diplomacy costs naff all but generates good will (and defence sales). UK Trade and Investment reckon on a 1:19 return on this sort of hosting; DSEi alone will generate sales running into the Billions.

The Club is a great Service, indeed National, asset, but it remains important that the Club continues to meet the needs of serving officers, primus inter pares, which I beleive it still does. Bookings are a measure of the popularity of the club - speculatively, I suppose I get a 50/50 chance of getting a room if I ring up with a week to go. Pity it wasn't made easier on the DHRS/HRG/Whatever it's called now.

*There were two embarrasing moments when I asked one of my party to leave a briefcase at reception; later on, I had to politely ask one of them to step out of the lounge when the BlackBerry rang out with a God-awful tune. Some people...

[Pontius Navigator]

WUH, I tried to make a booking for next August but apparently there is some event on and they are fully booked.

By whom I wonder?

[Whenurhappy]

Cue thread drift on the RAF Fitness Tests and how useless PTIs are.

I remember a note from the Club a couple of years ago asking people to confirm bookings at the Club for the Olympics. Wished I'd made a booking and then flogged it off to someone who might be interested in attending said jock-fest.

[The Old Fat One]

Haven't seen much good news about the Club on the forum.



Internet forums (all of them) are populated by a mixture of people who have interest and enjoyment in this form of discussion, mixed in with a few trolls.

Trolls are part and parcel of this style of media discussion...how the individuals deal with them is a personal choice (unless of course the mods step in...which on this forum is quite rare). However, we have to live with them and they are never far away.

The slightly convoluted point I am making is, if you go back over the past few pages of this thread, strip out the inevitable troll, most of the posts about the RAF Club are positive, good and encouraging.

Which, on Pprune, amounts to a ringing endorsement of this facility.

[Pontius Navigator]

TOFO :D

One reason I retain my membership is that the MiL loves the ambience. She visits Buck House every year and even just a quick brush up before the visit and afternoon tea afterwards is a great treat.

OTOH I can nip out, do a bit of shopping, then enjoy a refreshing shower before tea and the drive home.

Also I wonder how many people avail themselves of the discounted parking in the Mayfair car park?

[SOSL]

TOFO your'e quite right, of course.

[MrBernoulli]

I used the Club in August - 2 nights in a mini-suite. Very comfortable, and I enjoyed the brekkie. All in all, a good weekend attending a wedding and visiting old friends!

Pontius, I used Vinci parking underneath Park Lane, just north of Hyde Park Corner. It is possible to get a RAF Club discount there, but only upon presentation of an accommodation bill from the Club. Consequently, if one uses Vinci's online booking (to ensure a parking space) there is no discount - I confimed that with them. Online means book and pay together - c'est la vie! So, if you want the discount, you have to take a chance there is a space available when you turn up, and pay in arrears. Nevertheless, the convenience of the parking lot suited my needs.

[Biggus]

Tanker,

Surely most of those on this thread who have made negative comments have voted with their feet and left the RAF Club before now?

Having said that I followed your link, and it was only at the very last question that it asked for your membership number. I suppose therefore that ex-members could answer the survey and either put in their old membership number, or if they can't remember it, just write 'ex-member' with membership dates as applicable...



STRANGE - My reply to "Tanker" has appeared before the comment that generated it..... :ugh:

[Tankertrashnav]

For those club members who haven't already been notified by email, there is a survey which you can complete giving your own views.

It seems pretty obvious that they are trying to drum up the events trade, and there is a question on widening membership which I was careful to answer at length. Anyway, those members who have had their say on this thread ought to make their feelings felt on here - positive or negative.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/RAFCLUBSURVEY (https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/RAFCLUBSURVEY)

[Tankertrashnav]

Yes that's been happening a bit recently on other threads Biggus. I think it's something to do with the Hadron collider messing up the space/time continuum ;)!

[Biggus]

Maybe the electrons posting my reply went faster than the speed of light, and overtook yours.... :)

[Pontius Navigator]

Clever survey, one question would not take no for an answer.

I also forgot to mention the aircon in the Running Horse.

[Melchett01]

Clever survey, one question would not take no for an answer.


Yes I noticed that too - just accept that I wouldn't choose to go to any of the functions you have listed there, or if I did, it would be under my own steam. Also not overly keen on the fact that you have to give your name and membership number, will be interesting to see if I end up getting an email refuting the points I made -

1. Inability to get a room when I want one on so many occasions that I now look for hotac before going to the Club.

2. The perception amongst many in my peer group that the social functions seem to be targeting retired senior officers living close to London rather than appealing to the mass membership who are subsidising the retired members' social engagements.

3. That the survey has ominous portents for the Club losing sight of its intended function - a private officer's club, instead becoming a business / meeting facility with accommodation tagged on.

Edited to add - the above points may be factually incorrect by now, it is so long since I have used the Club because of the above points. However, even if they are now factually incorrect, it is clear that a residual perception of the Club being run for the benefit of retired senior officers exists and which needs working on. I should have added on the questionnaire that they need a good PR campaign amongst current serving members to try and entice them back to the fold. I agree with earlier comments that it is a fantastic facility - even with the grumbles I have -but the Club really need to work on retaining support and patronage amongst the younger generation if it isn't to become irrelevant.

[Whenurhappy]

Just completed the survey - and included my contact details. teh beef for me is the practical difficulties getting a room under the MOD ceiling when in London on Duty.

[1.3VStall]

I stayed at the Club last night. Had a very acceptable supper in the Running Horse, accompanied by a very nice glass or three of NZ Sauvignon Blanc. A relaxed breakfast this morning followed a good night's sleep in a comfortable bed.

As I have come to expect, every single member of staff that I spoke throughout my stay to was attentive and polite.

I wouldn't dream of cancelleing my membership.

And, by the way, I only booked my room last week (online). At the time of booking there were no rooms with showers available; however, when I checked in yesterday evening one had become available.

Overall assessment? Very satisfied!:)

[teeteringhead]

Must again laud the Club and agree with 1.3 above (or possibly below, depending on the tachyons ;)).

Was there a coupla weeks ago - weekday, for a reunion - and was upgraded to a suite, at no extra cost - still paid single with shower rate. Two bedrooms, one with double, one with bunks (wish they'd had those when ankle-snappers were closer to the ankles) and a ginormous bathroom.

Shame I was on my own .........

[Whenurhappy]

Oh dear,

Who has seen tha latest RAF Club Newsletter?

Another self-opinionated chod who seems to have made a career of avoiding the RAF by doing back-to-back NATO tours it seems.

Note to self - must submit bio/CV to Club for next newsletter. Good for networking, eh?

[jindabyne]

I've seen it. Care to explain?

[1.3VStall]

Whenurhappy,

That's no way to talk about RPE!

[snagged1]

I recently held a work presentation at the RAF Club in one of the entertaining rooms (Presidents) for shareholders (now that I am a civvie...).

The event ran like clockwork, the staff were superb and all in it was half the price of doing a similar event anywhere in Mayfair. My guests all commentated on how special it was to be invited into such a special club.

It is a brilliant club and by far and away the best value for money in Mayfair - sure you can get a cheaper room if you go to the travel-lodge in Acton, but thats not the point really is it!

Long may it stay as it is, and hopefully those moaning on here about it being SOOO expensive (really??! I am also member of somewhere close by and I can assure you that the annual subscription is 3 x what the RAF club is, plus a punchy joining fee) won't come and dampen the happy vibe the RAF club has. :ok:

[Tankertrashnav]

Long may it stay as it is, and hopefully those moaning on here about it being SOOO expensive (really??! I am also member of somewhere close by and I can assure you that the annual subscription is 3 x what the RAF club is, plus a punchy joining fee) won't come and dampen the happy vibe the RAF club has. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Hmm, an element of "let them eat cake there" snagged 1. Are you saying that you only want the well-heeled like yourself (as witness your membership of a nearby club @ c£400 p.a) around the club? What about poor old Flt Lt J.O. Soap (RAF Retd) who is now maybe in his mid 70's, no RAF pension because he only had a short service commission and is struggling on his State pension plus some rubbish annuity because his civvy one collapsed in the recession? Thats the reality for a lot of retired RAF officers, so I suppose it's Acton for them - wouldn't want poor people lowering the tone in the club.

[The B Word]

TTNav

Are you really suggesting that the Club should find the funds to support a SSC JO's membership who has not managed to find a career that will pay a hundred odd quid a year to belong to the Club? Come off it mate, there are Service Charities and RAFA Clubs for those people that haven't got the wonga to even buy a Pint in Piccadilly (the Running Horse is cheap at about £3.50 per pint).

Sadly, "poor old JO Soap" should've worked harder at school - as the saying goes.

The B Word

[1.3VStall]

The B Word,

Je suis tout a fait d'ccord! My last stay a couple of weeks ago - for dinner, a few glasses of wine, bed, breakfast and a DT was about £115. Where else can you get that on Piccadilly at that price?

If any retired officer is so hard up that they can't pay £134 for membership then the answer is simple: don't join.

[Tankertrashnav]

Fortunately I'm not in the position of Joe Soap, and indeed I'm looking forward to my next stay in the Club, booked for December.

However I do detect a relentless shift in the club's emphasis from providing a reasonably priced shake down for officers when they are in London to a venue for corporate events, quite often attended by large numbers who have no connection with the RAF.

The B Word - a lot of guys worked hard at school and ended up being shafted when their pension schemes went t**s up a few years back. I just count myself lucky I'm not one of them.

[andyy]

Anyone know how the club's facilities, costs, service etc compare with other similar clubs - the Naval Club, the Army & Navy, Naval & Military etc?

[snagged1]

TTN,

How else do you propose to raise enough funds to run the club if you don't have the occasional event in there - especially considering you intend on hugely reducing the rates it sounds for retired officers??
Running/maintaining that building costs money, staff cost money, everything costs money - don't get me wrong, it would be FANTASTIC if HMG funded the place and we could get a pint for 50p, but somehow I don't see that happening in present climate....

Pretty patronising remarks TTN... (although I am well heeled - 6 inch stilettos only on thursdays nights thanks very much) ;)

I am with B word on this...

[jindabyne]

a venue for corporate events, quite often attended by large numbers who have no connection with the RAF.

TTN,

These sort of things have been going on for many years and, as snagg says, they provide a good source of income. Usually they're held in rooms that would otherwise be empty, and in my experience the attendees are not at all intrusive either during or after the event.

As for poor JO Soaps. Oh c'mon - the Club's prices are excellent vfm in London, and wouldn't be all that expensive for a 'similar' establishment elsewhere. If the fees and rates are unaffordable for a lot of retired RAF officers (mmm, really?), then that's unfortunate; but as with hundreds of other entry-fee places, it's a choice, not a charity.

Pistols at 1730 in the Running Horse in December?? And who knows, my mate Foldie might even let you have a nip of his Grouse later on :ok:

[BBadanov]

I agree what he (jindy) says.
But maybe not with what foldie might say. :cool:

[foldingwings]

Oh go on then! But it's your Grouse this year, Jindy, we drank mine last year because you left your bottle on the train!!!!!! We've talked about this!:ugh:

The Club - A grand and good value for money establishment in a prime location in the centre of London endowed by Lord Cowdrey for the officers/retired officers of the Royal Air Force. Retired officers pay £131 to be members in 2011 and this will rise to £134 in 2012 - a mere pittance at £11.17 per month whether you use it regularly or, perhaps, biannually like me. I doubt many retired officers cannot afford it and most of the 'old boys' that I have come into contact with in my 42 years membership were 'junior officers' who served during the war and, on demob, went off to seek their fortune - and did!

Corporate entertainment? From my experience as a committee member in the late '90s, I recall that no corporate event was permitted if there was a prior Service need! So, in truth, if the room is available and BAe or whomsoever want to pay the going rate for it - better to profit than to lose by cutting off one's nose to spite one's face! At the end of the day, it can only benefit the members, the Service and industry by being able to impress foreign governments (for example) by hosting them in such splendour.

Foldie:ok:

PS. It's your bottle, Jindy:mad:

[Tankertrashnav]

Pistols at 1730 in the Running Horse in December??


Wouldn't the Cowdray Lounge offer better scope for a pistol duel? Mind you when I remember my lamentable performance with the Browning 9mm on annual qualification, I reckon you're pretty safe wherever it takes place!


my mate Foldie might even let you have a nip of his Grouse later on http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


Very kind, but could I have a Bombay Sapphire and Tonic instead please
as good whisky is wasted on me?