CX Hiring First Officers? When?

[flybywire44]

CX is currently hiring Second Officers, but is there any word on when CX will be hiring FOs again?

Does anyone have any advice for a high time regional FO thinking about a move to CX?

Thanks.

[Oval3Holer]

If you're in ATL, as your handle indicates, you'd be able to get a job with a US carrier. Stay away from CX! Management has not been kind recently to former regional jet pilots (some have been fired for poor performance, most likely their own fault) and our contract continues to be eroded year after year. 20 years from now you'll look back and thank those of us here on pprune who said to stay away. CX is going downhill fast...

Just my two cents (since that's all I have left to contribute after our measly what-they-call-a-pay-raise and inflation!)

[711]

as you can see you touched a nerve :hmm:

there is currently only one way to join Cathay, and that is via a Cadet SFO scheme. In your case a transition course of a few weeks in Australia and, more importantly, no expat benefits worth mentioning for the rest of your career.

[Oval3Holer]

SFO scheme? I think he's looking for an ATL scheme!

[Mr Fusion]

SFO scheme? I think he's looking for an ATL scheme!
The SFO scheme sounds right up my alley! :p

[airplaneridesrfun]

If you want an ATL base as FO - plan on it taking at least 8 years - 5 of which will be as a Second Officer in Hong Kong. You will not get a DEFO slot in CX as others have mentioned.

[letsfly75]

I'm surprised you are still considering CX. The company seems to not want based pilots. Although a majority of the pilots are based it has become a thorn in the companies side. But wait, the company doesn't want Hong Kong based pilots either.What a conundrum. If you want a career you need to be smart with your decisions. I wasn't and now I'm looking for for new employment.

[Ho Hum]

Just don't bother. If you have experience they're not prepared to pay for a reasonable cost of living to attract it. Even IF they were to offer DEFO on bases you would be looking at 17+years to a chance at a HKG command on diminished first 3 years command pay and crap housing assistance in VERY expensive city.
If you don't have experience, the package on offer will be so miserable you'll walk away pissed off with a 'wonderful' P2X rating and 5-7 years purgatory. It's NOT what it used to be and they still think they can trade on history.
Don't waste your time. :ugh:

[AQIS Boigu]

hopefully NEVER again!!!!

[swh]

I thought they were conducting DEFO interviews in the UK now for 100-200 ex-RAF pilots that were made redundant......

[SMOC]

And offering them the TT (super short course) cadet position to be S/Os.

What an opportunity to be out of work and then offered a job by CX at short notice. :}

[crwjerk]

At least they'll be able to spend their RAF millions on Hong Kong rent.........

[Mr Nibber]

The 170 odd RAF guys were all in training. Those that join Cathay will do it as SOs like everyone else.

[Flaps10]

But wait, they are RAF pilots. Shouldn't they go DEC instead? :}

[Captain Dart]

I'm sure that they are being measured up for their long-sleeved shirts as I type!

[Gravox]

SO are now being upgraded onto the 747, so i doubt there will be much space left in the training schedule to introduce DEFO anytime soon.

[Sir KDM Lowe]

But wait, they are RAF pilots. Shouldn't they go DEC instead?

You're quite correct. You're coming around to my way of thinking ;)

[Thunderbird4]

There's always an upside to hiring ex military pilots that know nothing of commercial operations......at least the bunks will nice and neat!

[Neptunus Rex]

ex military pilots that know nothing of commercial operations.....I don't think it would take too long for an ex-RAF Tristar Captain to get to grips with commercial operations.

[Iron Skillet]

Every pilot, military or otherwise, knows how to get from City A to City B. It's not exactly rocket surgery.

(Edit: Rocket surgery is really, really hard stuff: Rocket science + brain surgery = rocket surgery.)

[SweepTheLeg]

What is rocket surgery?

And at CX, they truly believe that every flight is a lunar mission.

[buggaluggs]

See....that's why guys find it so tough getting through training at CX....we need to be hiring more highly qualified rocket surgeons!! ;)

[crwjerk]

I don't think it would take too long for an ex-RAF Tristar Captain to get to grips with commercial operations.

HAHA...... We've got a few who still haven't.!!!

[Sir KDM Lowe]

Ah, that green eyed monster again.

Flown with equally bad examples from all backgrounds and countries over the years.

Here we go again......turning on each other. It's no wonder management think we're a joke.

[positionalpor]

And at CX, they truly believe that every flight is a lunar mission......................

Ah ah ah indeed. HKG-TPE, CAVOK, no winds feels like you are briefing for a bombing mission......

[Oval3Holer]

And, after that "bombing mission" briefing the next thing asked is, "Flight plan fuel?" What a farce!

[The Messiah]

So it sounds like there are some CX pilots from all different backgrounds who can be a bit tedious to fly with?

Wow shock horror, welcome to being in an airline. HTFU you pussies!!!!

[Steve the Pirate]

And, after that "bombing mission" briefing the next thing asked is, "Flight plan fuel?" What a farce! So presumably, the way around that particular farce would be for the captain to decide on the fuel and then to say, "Oh, by the way, my sector".

I think it's eminently sensible to discuss the flight in reasonable detail and include all the crew in the decision making process - after all, none of us are as infallible as we might like to think we are.

STP

PS. What's any of this got to do with hiring First Officers?

[Oval3Holer]

I think it's eminently sensible to discuss the flight in reasonable detail and include all the crew in the decision making process

Of course it's sensible to include all the crew in the decision-making process. However, when some pilots treat these "bus routes" as lunar missions it's ... (fill in your own thoughts here)

No, this has nothing to do with CX hiring First Officers...

[Steve the Pirate]

However, when some pilots treat these "bus routes" as lunar missions it's ... (my italics)

I agree to some extent but the inference in positionalpor's post is that everyone at CX treats every flight as though it were a "lunar mission". Personally, I have never found that to be the case but when there has been cause for detailed discussion it has taken place in a professional, inclusive manner. To make a generalisation such as the original is disingenuous. Given a choice of the current way of doing things or a "Yeah, whatever" approach to operating, I know which one I'd prefer - and it has nothing to do with CX.

STP

[positionalpor]

Any sense of humor STP?

YouTube - ‪Fed Ex Stolen Idea‬‏

Do you identify yourselves with any of the blokes in the video?

[Steve the Pirate]

positionalpor, I'd like to think I've got a sense of humour but any intended irony or humour in your first post escaped me I'm afraid. The video, on the other hand, is quite amusing but I fail to see its relevance with the "lunar mission" analogy.

STP

[Max Reheat]

The standard (and not SOP) pre-flight briefing these days seems to be

"Well, the weather's fine and there are no NOTAMs to affect us... Flight Plan Fuel?"

How about mentioning....

1. The callsign?
2. The destination alternate?
3. The minimum fuel to divert there?
4. Does the contingency and Rec extra cover all the step below flt lvls?
5. Any Crit Points on the route?

And then the weather and NOTAMs.

The list could go on, but I post these, since I feel they should be briefed as a minimum requirement. It takes 15 seconds longer, but looks and sounds far more professional.

[DessertRat]

Max -

1. Brief the callsign -are you serious?

2/3. The destination alternate is only chosen if it meets certain criteria, the appropriate fuel is already given to you. If you are happy with the wx, what is there to discuss?

4. Would you really load extra gas to cover step below for the entire route?

5. Crit points are chosen based on wx criteria and the appropriate fuel (again) is given to you. Again, what is there to discuss?

You are standing with fellow professionals who have assessed the whole package and decided that it meets the company (and their own) requirements. So when they say "wx and notams ok" it means they are happy with the "mission" as presented to them. If it wasn't they would say something. Don't mistake economy of words for indifference.

We only get 10 min of briefing time - lets not waste it with verbosity for its own sake. I thought we were trying to get away from that.

[Iron Skillet]

Hey Max,

Why not read off 84 other little bits of random information from the papers in front of everyone?

:ugh:

[Steve the Pirate]

Regardless of the thread drift, when are we going to hire DEFOs who know what they're doing instead of these SOs who clearly don't know how to read the dispatch package?

I assume the naysayers are referring to SOs - or is that akin to assuming that the ERA weather is current?

STP

[cxorcist]

Max Reheat,

It is a shame that someone having flown aircraft with afterburners would lower himself to comments such as yours. You may love the sound of your own voice and word selection, but I can assure you that the rest of us could do without. If you come to the brief with that crap, you can be sure that most of us will have written you off before even getting to the plane.

How's that for CRM? I bet you have some thoughts on that as well...

CXorcist

[Captain Dart]

I think Max Reheat's right. Briefing the callsign is important. The arrival and departure briefing I get from most of the boys and girls is longer than the original CX briefing it replaced! This is due to various junior managers marking their territory by introducing extra items (it started as 'CTWO' then became 'CTWO plus' then 'CTWO plus threats plus mitigation plus landing distance on a runway you've been landing on for decades'). It really is getting beyond a joke.

Often threats are made up on a nice day (since when has 'inbound traffic' been a 'threat'?). We are airline pilots aren't we?

By the end of these briefings I can't remember my own name let alone the callsign.

[jed_thrust]

I can't wait to brief my callsign today!

This should be good!

[Max Reheat]

Whatever.....

I have seen what piss poor planning can lead to though.

On a trip to SFO, I was the FO, the relief was called from reserve, the capt was training the SO.

Half way across the pacific, I got the SFO weather. Then a couple of hours later I got more. The relief was curious why I was so interested in SFO, he thought we were going to LAX!

This could all have been mitigated against by a professional briefing from the Capt, who was PF, it being a -400!

Many here argue that the company is in a race to the bottom, there is no reason why we should follow them.

[cxorcist]

Max,

Let me see if I have this right. I need to brief the destination and call sign (among other things) in case I come across an unprofessional pilot who cannot bother to retrieve this info from the paperwork on his own. Now that is covering for the lowest common denominator.

I think briefings are meant to cover anything dumb, different, or potentially dangerous. Flying 872 to SFO with standard ERAs, alternates, wx, and notams does not qualify. I'm sure the RQ had plenty of opportunity to figure everything out by the time he was responsible for any decision making. If he chose not to, that is another (far worse) problem altogether.

[Max Reheat]

First of all...

DessertRat - did you mean for your name to sound like a trash bin vermin at a cake factory?

For the rest, it's not about making a meal out of the briefing, as with everything in aviation, there is a need to be professional. Surely we all want to set the right impression. As I said in an earlier post, it takes 15 seconds longer than the usual. I'll draw your attention to Ops Pt A 8.1.11, that says it all really.

If you are an SO/FO, it matters... if you are a captain and don't agree, you are beyond redemption.

I'm running for cover now.

Remember, the first rule of military aviation applies here just as appropriately...

'It's better to look good than be good!'

Anyway, what about DEFOs? I hope not.

[Fly747]

Max, its otherwise known as bull**** baffles brains!
I agree, DEFOs are dead until they are in a corner with no alternative and it becomes expedient.

[Oval3Holer]

Max,

If the Relief thought he was going to LAX when he was really going to SFO and he was NOT PF, how would his actions (if he actually had to take any) have been different? If he had been retrieving LAX weather (like some idiots do just after takeoff from HKG, and, all the way across the pond, every hour, like it were going to make a difference in the flight) and it was terrible (possibly requiring a diversion) he'd have been thinking about going to SFO anyway!

I know relief guys who don't even LOOK at the paperwork and would be perfectly capable of doing their job properly and safely if and when the sh*t hit the fan.

It's not a f****n' lunar mission!

[stillalbatross]

Ah, that green eyed monster again.

Flown with equally bad examples from all backgrounds and countries over the years.

Here we go again......turning on each other. It's no wonder management think we're a joke.

Fond memories back in 2000 of ND telling me how incredible the exRAF ASL chaps were and how they could all be DEC.

[Pilot Chris]

This is without doubt the best thread creep I have ever seen on PPRUNE.

It's all Ryanair's fault.

[positionalpor]

Remember, the first rule of military aviation applies here just as appropriately...

'It's better to look good than be good!'




Never heard that before.
Actor.............

[Steve the Pirate]

I think briefings are meant to cover anything dumb, different, or potentially dangerous

Doesn't that sort of back up Max's point though? For example, what are the standard notams for SFO?

STP

[Sir KDM Lowe]

Stillalbatross,

You appear to have an issue with ex military guys. I flew with most of the ASL captains back then and I can only remember two real idiots. One from an all civilian background and the other fom the RAF. All the other ex RAF guys were just fine. And still great guys to fly with today. But then again, they had done the job before in the left seat. It's not rocket science after all.


Just out of interest, which Air Force turned you down all those years ago?

Thread creep continues...

[stillalbatross]

Lowe, never bothered with the military, marching's not for me. No doubt you also feel the need to run around telling everyone how wonderful you are? Seems there are plenty of exGA guys doing a fine job in CX, why **** on them?

[Sir KDM Lowe]

I think you need to re read your post and then mine.

Never questioned the GA guys at all. Both career paths have provided CX with perfectly adequate pilots over the years. Simply tried to question your obvious issue with ex RAF pilots from your post on 5th June. Seen this envy/issue many times over the years. Just relax.

Suspect I touched a nerve though.

PS: Never said I was ex military.

[Max Reheat]

Stillalbatross,
If you had considered the military you would have learnt that pilots in Nato Air Forces are all officers and yes there would have been a little bit if drill (marching to you) during Officer Training but not much. The end goal of flying some of the worlds best and most demanding equipment in the most demanding environment would have compensated for any of the pain one endured at the beginning. You will never experience the pride of marching in front of the monarch at your graduation, or the satisfaction of getting a bomb on target from low level at night in cloud or the feeling of the burners light up. Then again, most of us enjoyed the discipline and esprit de corps that came with it.

Don't argue that dropping bombs has nothing to do with flying passengers around... it's the attitude and discipline that comes with being a professional aviator, no matter what your flying background.

Ah, DISCIPLINE, there is a quality found in very few of our new pilots. You will argue, I know, but trust me you sound just like the type I am talking about!

cxorcist, oval 3 holer et al.... You talk about lowest common denomiators, you talk yourselves into it.

This is not rocket science and neither is it a bombing mission but surely the customers deserve we make no less effort than that type of job. There is only one way to fly and that is at 100% all the time.

If you don't like it.....

[Sir KDM Lowe]

Max Reheat

Spot on. Couldn't have put it better myself. Thank you.

Now of course, this will start an even more heated debate which will result in Cathay pilots doing what they do best.....turn on each other. Willy waving galore.

Meanwhile our careers erode further while we're busy bickering like children.

As they say, "never mind the ball, lets get on with the game".

I'm off to practice my goose steps. Oops, I mean quick march. ;)

[Oval3Holer]

You will never experience the pride of marching in front of the monarch
:yuk:
It's people who experience pride marching in front of a monarch that make CX the 19th-Century colonial anachronism it is. How about moving your thought and behaviour patterns into the 21st Century?
:yuk:

[positionalpor]

................We just crushed!!!!!!!!!!
The CX pilot group were focused on a light bulb, lost sight of the real issue and hit the ground.No one survived.
Oh man of great wisdom and ego but little common sense, professing to wise they became fools.......
Please learn and apply CRM. We all need it.

[cxorcist]

Max,

How quickly you go from talking about the importance of briefing items which are self evident in the paperwork to calling those who disagree about briefing them unprofessional or becoming the lowest common denominator. I am one of the few pilots of those I have flown with who looks at real time weather and the paper notams on possible divert airfields as we approach them. That is because I probably did not even look at them in the paperwork unless they are an ERA for filing purposes, and I sure as hell did not memorize or brief them if I did look. That is what a quick glance at the weather chart is for. They are not go or no-go items.

I think your statement about looking good being more important being good says it all about you. The problem with that is that eventually everyone who really knows you figures out that you are completely full of crap. It takes a seniority list bigger than Cathay's (or the RAF) to hide from that.

For icing on the cake, you mention pride derived from marching in front of a monarch. No real fighter pilot likes marching anywhere except onto the flightline to fly a sortie and promptly into the bar after the debrief (which ironically should be detailed). So my guess is that you are a poser ex-ground attack pilot with no real air to air experience. Let me guess - GR4 or, god forbid, the Jaguar? You are correct in saying that dropping a blivet on target is not rocket science, but flying a 64 ship OCA wall downtown on the first day of the war is (and so is training for that mission).

So save your cheap quips about discipline, professionalism, and 100% for those whom are like minded. When it comes to exerting effort I am much more concerned about proper vector placement than producing more thrust, but I suspect someone calling themselves Max Reheat is more interested in the latter. Don't worry though, I am sure everyone who really knows you understands that you are just blowing hot air.

Cxorcist

[Max Reheat]

Oh cxorcist,

I got a bite.

You sound like an air defender which means you didn't ever lead a 64 ship OCA mission, I can tell you who did!

By the way, the Jag was great!

Also, were you a DEFO? I would guess so.

[cxorcist]

Top of the class has to fly something :ok:

[BusyB]

Max Reheat, just for you:)


When Judgment Is Clouded
MILITARY | SCOTLAND, UK |
(We give weather forecast information for Royal Air Force aircrew officers for fast jet flying.)

Caller: “Hi this is flying officer [name] with [squadron]. I need the weather for 5 hours time on the west coast.”

Me: “So that’s the forecast pressure, wind and cloud cover?”

Caller: “No, I don’t want the forecast conditions. I want the actual weather for 5 hours ahead.”

Me: “I can only do actuals for what’s happened, but I can give my best forecast.”

Caller: “No, that’s not good enough. I don’t want forecasts. I want to know what’s going to actually happen!”

(Someone else takes the call.)

Caller 2: “Hi this is [squadron] navigator. Sorry about that. Can I get the forecast conditions for him, please?”

[Max Reheat]

BusyB,

I don't see the relevance of that post at all.

[raven11]

MaxReheat and CXorcist....well done to both of you!

I enjoyed your one-v-one!

[BusyB]

Max Reheat,

Sorry if its not relevant, I just thought it was representative of a thorough military briefing and it was amusing:)

[triple_2]

So in other words CX is also not the way forward? I really begin to think I chose the wrong profession because according to all the threats here on PPRUNE, all the carriers are bullocks. I'm 3000 hours TT, 2500 airbus, please tell me, what is the way forward? With this loco ping-pong business I'm in now, I go crazy..

[Oval3Holer]

Triple_2, although long-haul may seem calm and even glamourous compared with your ping-pong job, I really miss the true flying and decision-making involved in ping-ponging. I know of a captain at EasyJet Switzerland who makes more in basic salary than a 747 captain at Cathay. Plus, he's got a fun cabin crew and actually uses his head and his skills rather than becoming a brain-dead ocean-crosser. Enjoy where you are. Take a trans-Pacific flight and hang out in the cockpit for 7 hours. Then, see what you think. If you want to really fly, keep doing what you're doing. If you want to get paid to sit and do nothing (nothing wrong with that if you're really tired of flying) then look at a long-haul job.

[SMOC]

CX no longer hire DEFOs.

The only way in is through cadet entry SOs.

1. >1500 hrs (4-12 week course).
2. <1500 hrs (30 week course).
3. < 250 hrs (60 week course).


CX can hire DEFOs but with CX going for 3 crew long haul and looking at cruise pilot MPLs and the hassle with bases, bypass pay etc, hiring of DEFOs in the future is doubtful plus if they do it'll be local terms like the new SOs.

CX is not what it used to be.

WATS 2011: Cathay floats cruise co-pilot MPL (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/04/20/355824/wats-2011-cathay-floats-cruise-co-pilot-mpl.html)

[triple_2]

Thanks guys for the advice. That's the hard truth of everything in aviation I believe, it's all going downhill. Having said that, I think carriers like CX are still the best deals around. I understand what you say about flying the airplane but then PA28, gliding and instructing is the way for me :ok: For me flying is also about bringing cultures together and traveling, that would be longhaul. I've been in longhaul before so know what it's like, it can be boring at times for sure. At the moment I have 34 years of flying ahead of me, better with a big carrier I would say and fly the small stuff on the days off..

[luvmuhud]

You sound like an air defender which means you didn't ever lead a 64 ship OCA mission, I can tell you who did!

By the way, the Jag was great!


Ohh Pleaasssseeeee! Yes, on the last day of the exercise, the mud movers may get a token OCA lead slot, but haven't we all had the misfortune of being led by a non-air to air player enough times to realize it's an SA sucking recipe for disaster.

Bombers in an air war are like small children. They need a fighter to hold their hand when crossing the road.

Ahh for the good old days.

lmh

[Oval3Holer]

For me flying is also about bringing cultures together

Triple_2, unfortunately, you won't find that at CX. The cultures in the cabin do not mingle with the cultures in the cockpit. The only time you'd be brought together is when you're forced to ride the bus to and from the aircraft. It is nothing like the camaraderie you presently experience (I'm assuming) at your European airline.

[triple_2]

So no going out with the cabin during layovers as well i can imagine? If you wouldn't mind, could you maybe tell what kind of lifestyle you can expect at CX for a guy like me starting as a SO? I can imagine more guys reading this forum are interested to know. Thanks!

[Captain Dart]

The cabin crew are often referred to as 'olympic torches'; they travel the world and never go out.

Except to Chinatown maybe.

Very few are 'westernised', nice girls but watch the eyes glaze over when you make a joke or sometimes just attempt conversation. Standards of English not good particularly among the Cantonese and mainland crew. Low salary means they prefer to stay in their rooms and hoard the outport allowances.

Some twenty years ago two of our cockpit crew were sitting in an 'airline' restaurant in Mainz, Germany. A Delta captain came over to them.

'Hey, I bet you guys are Cathay'.

'Yes how did you pick that?'

'You got no women with you and you're bitchin' about your management'.

It hasn't changed.

[Flaps10]

Triple 2... Are you freaking kidding me? How could you even consider coming to CX as a CADET with 3000 hours, (2500 on Airbus)?!?! YOU are what is wrong with our industry and why conditions continue to fall to the lowest bidder. Pathetic...:ugh:

[triple_2]

Thanks for the info Capt Dart, much appreciated!

Haha Flaps 10, I didn't want to upset you! :) You are right, the SO conditions are slightly worse then I initially imagined. I thought if I would go to the selections, they would maybe offer me something better considering my experience but probably the chances are quite slim to non existing.. Never harms to look around and talk to people though, I just want to find a good and challenging airline where I can work for the rest of my career. I thought CX is one of the leading airlines in the world and it would be an honor to work for them.. Would say that airlines will have a problem finding proper pilots in the near future but that's a whole different discussion. If the industry goes on like this, I'm seriously considering a change of profession :(

[joebanana]

.....I'm seriously considering a change of profession

You're not the only one :rolleyes:

[cxorcist]

Please do NOT underestimate 3 things:

1) The very high expense of living in Hong Kong, especially with no housing allowance when you are used to western standards. You will almost certainly be going backwards in lifestyle with light at the end of a very, very long tunnel. I like to compare it to attending medical school without the end-game reward$.

2) The frustration of being an SO who does not fly, have much responsibility, or receive any respect from a large percentage of the pilots. You will be assumed to have little or no relevant experience as a cadet SO, even though this is not the case in your situation. You will be lumped in with pilots far less experienced, and I believe you will come to resent this.

3) Your upgrade to JFO (AKA "untrusted" FO) is at least 4 years off from hire and possibly much more as MPP and perhaps 3 man long haul become the norm. This is to say nothing of the possibility for DEFOs further slowing your career progression. They have in the past and will again if necessary. Your flying skills will certainly degrade during this time as you are only allowed to fly the sim. It will be very challenging to keep your head in the game after the newness of everything wears off.

Don't let this be your career as a cadet at CX ---> :):uhoh::confused::(:{:ugh::yuk::yuk::yuk:

[Clear_sky]

cxorcist -

Those little faces very accurately describe my 4 years as an SO.

The last three in particular!!

[Flying Phoenix]

I made the mistake of taking a First Officer position with Oasis Hong Kong Airlines based on a promise of a quick command as I was already a -400 Captain with Dragonair. We all know what happened to Oasis. It took me less than 2 months to work out that I would stagnate and go backwards in my career if I didn't get back into the left seat quickly. Thank goodness they went bankrupt as quickly as they did. I got lucky and was back into the left seat of the A330 after 8 months of being employed. Lesson: never go backwards in your aviation career, always move forward and up. With your background of the A320 it would be a catastrophic career move to accept a Second Officer position with CX.

[SloppyJoe]

Heard the other day from a guy in training that SOs in about a year will be doing RT/PC with an STC in the left seat, they will also have to do a sim session once a month. This is instead of the current Mod system where you do a sim once every two months, two of those each year being a regulatory check.

You may wonder why they are doing this or you may already know. The Mod system is for the P2X rating, this new sim every month and an RT/PC system is for the soon to be introduced P1X rating. Don't get excited, no base training and still no hours useful anywhere else, all so there can be two SOs on ULH flights.

So in the middle of this safety audit, and the ever quoted line of "safety is our top priority", they are inventing the way to introduce a system that will result in almost all of our ULH flights having a guy in the right seat for landing who can hardly keep his eyes open due to always getting the worst rest.

Oh will also mean ages to upgrade for an SO as am sure with this new rating they will not make the mistake again of it only being valid for 5 years. Will make the job of being an FO more crappy also

edit to add: This will also free up many many hours on the rosters of FOs so will further reduce the hiring needs for experienced guys.

[404 Titan]

SloppyJoe

I don’t want to poo poo you rumour but a quick numbers check on the back of my beer coaster tells me the numbers don’t add up.

Let’s assume we have about 250 SO’s. This means the training department would have to find an extra 750 sim slots a year. The sims are already operating at or close to max capacity as it is so I find it difficult to see how they could find an extra 750 slots with the current capacity constraints. We are also desperately short of training captains so finding the extra STC’s to conduct the RT/PC’s is hugely problematic given the current training task already planned.

I’m not saying the rumour isn’t true. I just think it is difficult to make the numbers add up. Also CX can roster 2 x SO's now if they want. They don't need a P1X rating to achieve it. The real reason they want a P1X rating is because projected upgrade times will go well past five years (the life of a P2X rating) if 2 x SO's are used on ULH flights.

[Sir KDM Lowe]

The five year limit on the P2X rating is not an issue. Waivers have already been given by the CAD for those who left and then re-joined. The document uses the words ".....should normally etc....within 5 years".

[404 Titan]

Sir KDM Lowe

One off waivers from the 5 year validity to a P2X rating doesn’t imply that the CAD will just give them out when all SO’s are going beyond 5 years to upgrade to JFO. If the “Normally” becomes greater than 5 years the CAD will want a fix. From what I understand of the proposed P1X rating it will be open ended.

[SMOC]

We all know that CAD stands for Cathay Aviation Department, I doubt CX will have any trouble with the P2X issue, I'm more worried about the CAD saying yes with a P1X pilot you can go 3 crew long haul or whatever else CX deems P1X can be used for.

If we can go with Capt, F/O and two P2X S/Os now, looks like the P1X is ripe for Capt, F/O and one P1X S/O or cruise pilot or whatever else they'd like to call it.

[The Wraith]

Brian Potter,
I'm sure you mean well, and we get your point, but the SO intake was how the system worked if you joined in Hong Kong....until the DEFO period..... I can assure you that even though you have "served your time" there are still SOs here with more experience than you.
Good luck with whatever path you choose, however.:ok:

[iceman50]

The Wraith

Not quite true my friend.

DEFO was the method of entry until the local cadet scheme, then it became a mixture of DEFO /SO and Cadet. The system then changed to Cadet / SO with a short period of DEFO a couple of years ago.:)
(Not many people know that! to quote an incorrectly attributed quote of a Mr M Caine)

[Spacecruise]

Still waiting no reponce. any idea how long to take get repond?:zzz:

[Captain Dart]

Forever, 'Ace', if the standard of English and spelling in your post is the same as that in your application.

Are you sure that you are up to being trained to fly wide-bodied airliners, carrying hundreds of people, all over the planet?

[boxjockey]

I'm hoping Spacey was having a laugh. Otherwise.....

box

[Captain Dart]

Yeah Boxy, the usual caveats; it may be a wind up, or he had a few beers before posting. But my response still stands; just in case he's for real.

And the way things are going with the 'vision' for icadets, fast-trackers and MPLs in order to avoid paying good money for quality crew, I am becoming glad that retirement is not that far off...

[airplaneridesrfun]

....and many current SOs have spent more than 14 years flying - and are still serving their time. But, you want to jump ahead of them because why? Perhaps you dont fully understand the situation.

[jonathon68]

Yawn.

It is the same story every time an expansion comes along. There are not enough trainers to do the task.

You can't just upgrade another dozen training Captains in a month or two and then solve the problem. That is just like being short of "pilots" and simply hiring S/O's. The Training team need to be expanded in depth to cope with an increased task. This needs to take place before the new basic trainees enter the system, since you need training resources to train the new trainers.

The result is that the available training sectors limit the expansion for the whole airline.

If you need one new pilot....

To upgrade an S/O, you first need to factor in the training requirement of his replacement S/O. That is 10 training sectors, mostly ULH. In addition, about 20% need more training.

Then his/her 60 sector JFO course needs to be accounted for (even though about 30-40% check out at 40 sectors)

To recruit a Direct Entry F/O the programme is 30 sectors of line training. Approximately 30% need some extra sectors. The record is 27 extra. (still held by the 74F!)

The number crunchers calculate that in balance it is best to recruit DE F/O's onto a base during an expansion (when training sectors are at a premium). This is even before the costs of based and expat pilots are considered.

[MilPilot]

I've spent 20 and so what?

Why didn't they just join as DEFO? There were SOs that jumped ship and applied for DEFO when they had the chance.

[Sir KDM Lowe]

Most of our SO's have more than enough experience to apply for a DEFO position. Maybe didn't have the right passport for the ports in question.

[Flaps10]

or saw that there was more money to be made based in HKG and as well, better patterns and destinations.

[cxflyer]

:ugh:(hopefully NEVER again!!!! )


I said that when they brought in B scale to undercut me but it happened again and again and again and...

[iceman50]

cxflyer

Didn't YOU join as a DEFO then if you are A scale!:rolleyes:

[fly123456]

Wouldn't it be better to say: "DESO (and cadets), hopefully NEVER again!!!!"

I mean, it is really worth having 4000h+ pilots who don't fly the plane, for half the salary?
There would be no problems if there were no SO's.

Come on, let's upgrade everybody, and get rid of the ridiculous p2x rating / SO rank

[Iron Skillet]

The standard response, whether true or not, is that there are not enough sectors in the network to keep everyone current. It is particularly problematic when most captains think they should fly 1 of every 2 ULH sectors despite there being 2 FO's who need to stay current as well as gain experience, and some famous captains fly 2 of 3 or 3 of 4 sectors and think nobody notices.

[fly123456]

Give the based guys a few regional flights in HK every 2/3 months. Problem solved?

[Iron Skillet]

That would cost the company an extra 10 cents, so it's not going to happen.

[Air Profit]

...the based guys already get regional patterns nearly every month. check your facts before posting. As for Captains 'thinking they need' sectors....in the end we are responsible for the safety of the aircraft and we have to maintain competency. If you don't like that fact, then join a regional and do six sectors a day.

ps. the Captains that fly 2 of3 or 3 of 4.....don't care if you notice.

[Cider30]

I understand being responsible for the safety of the aircraft, but if somebody has to fly 2 out of 3 or even 1 out of 2 to feel proficient, maybe this job is not for him.

[Air Profit]

...you're an FO obviously... and of course you would know what it takes for a Captain to stay proficient ? If a Captain is based, 1 out of 2 means two to three sectors a month. About minimal to stay properly proficient. I realise that doesn't fit with your agenda however.

[Iron Skillet]

Oh yeah, of course.....because no FO or SO has EVER been a captain before joining CX...or flown single pilot high performance jets all by himself (as the captain) that require 1000 times more brain power and talent than being an airline pilot on Y1 or yet another ILS somewhere...or trained other pilots with zero or little experience unlike the airline FOs with 2000-15000 hours and 10-25 years of experience...or done anything as demanding as.....oh, nevermind, no point upsetting your little fantasy perception about yourself, or you might have to go back to worrying about your willy!

Agenda? Work = money deposited into bank account.

[Air Profit]

.....ooooohh, a bit techy aren't we? Sure, all the FO's I fly with are ace's. Cathay only hires the best..... All those ex Beech 1900 skippers are really the 'best of the best'. Lucky for CX they were available instead of all those ex BA/BC/QA/BM 747/DC10/etc drivers they managed to get in the 80's and early 90's.

[Iron Skillet]

Will it really take a list of all the captains' screw ups to shut you up and get you off your high horse? Or just the list of recent ones at CX? Or just this year's demotions maybe? Get over yourself, buddy....it ain't that hard, and nobody gives a crap anyways.

Wankers with your attitude, that's what we call the law of unintended consequences, of seniority in this case.

I wonder how you went from being such a fully unreliable, incompetent, inexperienced, unworthy FO to suddenly being so awesome, valuable and special. Oh yeah, you didn't!

[Cider30]

...you're an FO obviously... and of course you would know what it takes for a Captain to stay proficient ? If a Captain is based, 1 out of 2 means two to three sectors a month. About minimal to stay properly proficient. I realise that doesn't fit with your agenda however.


Airprofit,
No, I am afraid you're wrong, I am a CN and so I think I know what it takes for ME to stay proficient, although that's up for others to decide several times every year. So far without any problems.

I know I can only speak for myself, but I take 2 per month and hand the rest out to whoever is in need of a sector, weather etc not being a factor. If you need more - fine, I still think for a CN at CX 2 per month plus being a part of the operating crew (i.e. in the seat) for the rest of them is enough. We also have a responsibility to make takeoffs and landings available to FOs and JFOs, and it is beyond belief when some CN will not allow an FO to fly when going to an RT/PC or linecheck or has a TL on his roster.

What I do know is jumping to conclusions based on insufficient information is the road to all evil !!!

Respectfully,

Cider30

[Steve the Pirate]

Everyone should know by now that I like a good thread drift as much as the next person. I'm not sure how this one has gone from hiring to competence but it's amusing nonetheless as showcases bias, superiority complexes and the inability of some to have a rational debate without spittle impacting the faces of their opponents (figuratively speaking, of course). All at the stroke of a few keys on a keyboard. So, well done whoever made the first nudge on the rudder pedals.

As far as sharing the flying goes, isn't there something in Ops A at 8.3.4.1 about this? Finally, currency doesn't necessarily equal competence, whichever seat you happen to be sitting in.

STP

[The Wraith]

Actually, Air Profit, it seems that YOU are the tetchy one! Thank god guys like you are here to save us all from ourselves!
Now, how to spell TOSSER......mmmm, that's it!:D

[Max Reheat]

Let us suppose that CX is not able to hire the required number of crews for the 40 or so additional airframes arriving over the next 3 years....

What do we suspect (or dread) their scheme and plans involve? All those of us who have been here for more than half a dog watch know that there will be contingency plans being drawn up, right now, as we argue amongst ourselves about trivia.

This could be an even worse scenario than DEFOs (and I'm not an advocate of that).

[Captain Dart]

Yes Max, I share your cynicism. However, yet another glossy offer to 'upgrade your career' with CX in Flight 28th June issue (second week running), which incidentally is upstaged by a larger Emirates ad on the opposite page!

The CX ad just gives a reference to the web site but the Emirates ad refers to taking your career 'further, faster' (italics mine). How many A380s have they got on order again?

Two large and growing airlines duking it out for recruits. Who'd 'a' thunk it?

[stillalbatross]

.....ooooohh, a bit techy aren't we? Sure, all the FO's I fly with are ace's. Cathay only hires the best..... All those ex Beech 1900 skippers are really the 'best of the best'. Lucky for CX they were available instead of all those ex BA/BC/QA/BM 747/DC10/etc drivers they managed to get in the 80's and early 90's.

Now you wouldn't happen to be the famous (in CX) skipper who says "I'm doing all the sectors irrespective of anyone's lack of currency or checks coming up, I had it tough when I was an F/O so I'm passing it on"

:D

[crwjerk]

Hahaha, I may as well join the cock fight........
Cathay only hires the best..... All those ex Beech 1900 skippers are really the 'best of the best'.

Just because you....
1. Flew upside down
2. Took it up the ass
3. Said " YES SIR" as part of your job description,

does not make you any better than an ex Beech 1900 skipper.

[Iron Skillet]

...not to mention that it actually takes a lot more talent, skill, thinking, decision-making, airmanship and effort to be a Beech 1900 (or similar) captain (or FO) than it does to fly a big jet at a large, regulated, experienced major airline equipped with worldwide IOC/dispatchers/load controllers/DDG/ACARS/SATCOM/top-end simulators and a staff of thousands behind the scenes.

[Bob Hawke]

I'll just pop and have a coffee boys, please, just carry on.

[iceman50]

IRON SKILLET

...not to mention that it actually takes a lot more talent, skill, thinking, decision-making, airmanship and effort to be a Beech 1900 (or similar) captain (or FO) than it does to fly a big jet at a large, regulated, experienced major airline equipped with worldwide IOC/dispatchers/load controllers/DDG/ACARS/SATCOM/top-end simulators and a staff of thousands behind the scenes.

OR

Oh yeah, of course.....because no FO or SO has EVER been a captain before joining CX...or flown single pilot high performance jets all by himself (as the captain) that require 1000 times more brain power and talent than being an airline pilot on Y1 or yet another ILS somewhere...or trained other pilots with zero or little experience unlike the airline FOs with 2000-15000 hours and 10-25 years of experience...or done anything as demanding as.....oh, nevermind,

Which is it SKYGOD and if it is such a dreadful job why are you here wasting your obvious "talent"!:rolleyes::ugh:Or do you just want the 4 bars on your jimjams.

[raven11]

Cheers Iceman!
Game, Set, and Match....

[broadband circuit]

Or do you just want the 4 bars on your jimjams

When he does get 4 bars, you can be sure his jimjams will be made of silk.

[Iron Skillet]

Just like the teenagers at McDonald's and all other employees in the world, the ONLY reason anyone exchanges their time and qualifications to work for anyone is because they are offered money to do so. Just like a hooker. Simple.

1, 2, 3 or 4 bars is all seniority-based noise.

There are a couple of other seniority-based employee type of "professional" careers in the world....just like ours. None have anything to do with the highest paid clowns being any more special than the others in the list, myself included, it's just a matter of time, and luck, until retirement age removes the most senior or oldest from the list. Still, many seem to attribute their fortunate timing to their abilities....blah blah blah. Get over yourselves.

For many CX pilots, what they were doing before was massively more fun, challenging, interesting, difficult, special and rewarding, as captains or whatever....and now this boring easy crap (with a large % of dickheads to put up with) is ONLY about the money. Yet many others cannot face the day without their little title or embarrassing uniform and hat, as if anyone gives a crap.

[Max Reheat]

Iron Skillet

At least those who come on here and argue with themselves have the sense to do it under two (or maybe more) pseudonyms. You just make an ar5e out of yourself by arguing with yourself on a public forum.

BTW some of us are here because this is what we wanted to do for a very long time before actually getting the job. Of course the money is important, often more so since we live in such an expensive city but it's not the be-all and end-all.

Are you from the USA? I only ask because of the skillet in your name?

Why are so many of your compatriots so unhappy here?

[climbout]

Iron Skillet

You just 'nailed it' !! that's all about it, why we are here-
NO fun!,NO challenge!,Many guys like 'M.Reheat', but more money than at home!!

[Steve the Pirate]

Whilst I agree with Iron Skillet to some point I find the tenor of his most recent post a little sad really. He paints a picture of an individual who, when he says things like:

and now this boring easy crap (with a large % of dickheads to put up with) is ONLY about the money.comes across as an unhappy person who finds it difficult to extract any satisfaction from his chosen profession. Perhaps it was the wrong choice in the first place, who knows, but it's not fair to criticise those who do still derive some pleasure from their work, Mr Reheat for example.

One thing I do disagree with though is the assumption that achieving a command in CX is purely seniority-based. Yes, seniority puts one in a position to start the course, but starting the course doesn't always equal a successful outcome. I know this will draw snorts of derision with many saying that failures are due solely to characters who have no right to be checkers in the first place - we're all entitled to our opinion. The point is that seniority, certainly in CX, is not the only criterion for advancement.

Going back to the following:
(with a large % of dickheads to put up with) That's true of every seat in the flight deck because people are people and some of them simply aren't very pleasant.

STP

[Max Reheat]

So climbout...

You are only here for the money. Which makes you a mercenary. We all have a mercenary tendency, just some have it stronger than others.

However, a mercenary doesn't have the right to question the methods of his employer, he just gets on with the job until it's done and then chooses whether to accept the next task or to move on with his life.

The task we are set is indeed available elsewhere but possibly with a different set of rules. At the end of the day the job still gets done.

You nailed it yourself, you are here for the money. Accept the fact and get over it.