Ansett closure at last

[teresa green]

:ugh:Today the Ansett people finally got the last of their money. Ten odd years ago or so, during the night TE shut AN down. Nobody was told, not pax who turned up for their flights, the crews who did ditto, the engineers the same, and all the rest. Shock, fear, distress permeated the terminal, the hangers, the offices. TAA absorbed by QF, Ansett bled to death by Murdoch and TE, and now QF with a very shaky grip on its perch. I would never have thought in my lifetime I would see such happenings, I could never have imagined such fine Australian airlines, such achievers, with their great safety record, their fine engineers, such loyalty, such great standards, end up where it has. And only greed can be blamed, only greed. People don't change, give them something to be proud of and they will give you loyalty and hard work in exchange, ridicule them, care little for them, take away pride in their product, and you will reap the benefits. None. Take note QF, you have relied on loyalty from your staff for far to long, and God help us, none of us want to see another Ansett. QF urgently need another Ward, Menidue, or Yates to get them back on straight and level, or I fear for the future.

[priapism]

What do you mean by the last of our money? Have the administrators paid out the rest of the redundancies owing, or are you referring to some other money?
I just checked the Korda/Mentha webpage and the last update is dated December the 10th last year.

[Anthill]

Nuthin' in my account, either :bored:

[Gas Bags]

Friday 14th September 2001, a little after 03:00.....

That would equate to a massive amount of money required for a final payout.

Unfortunately, like Anthill, my account remains the same :(

[virgindriver]

I will bet that Korda/Mentha have made a tidy sum over the last 10 years sucking up what was left of the Ansett money.

They are nothing better than parasites.

[teresa green]

Reported on ABC (NSW) last night. All monies to paid out. Hope you are all in line. Ten years, a disgraceful wait.

[unionist1974]

I hope all the ex AN folk get whatver they are owed ,a sad chapter in Australian Aviation . One we do not seemed to have learned from . Sad , all parties are going thru the same dance ritual today. Ah well!

[Buster Hyman]

I think the final payout is over the next 2 months, or so it was related to me.

Happy to see the end of this. Dragged on far too long...but, glad we were able to establish a fine new Australian company...Korda, Mentha! :*

[ampclamp]

In all fairness someone had to look after the corpse and get whatever they could out of it.
Yes it was a company maker for them but nobody was going to do it for nothing.
It could have been much worse.Many companies fold with no assets and lots of debt.
And yes I am owed quite a bit of money but consider myself fortunate compared to many others.

from the SMH site..


Read more: 10 years on, they bury the dog (http://www.smh.com.au/business/10-years-on-they-bury-the-dog-20110506-1ebuv.html#ixzz1NAHdAg1g)

[teresa green]

According the the ABC tonight, you get your money within twelve weeks. About time. Pity about the ones that did not cope, and are no longer alive, the whole thing a disgrace.

[unionist1974]

To quote the last CEO of AN "Absolutely " .mmmmm

[B772]

The former AN cabin crew and groundstaff are still owed $17M in Superannuation which is a national disgrace. The money is being held by Mercer's as a residual fund to cover a possible former employee disability claim.

The government minister responsible is Shorten who has been less than helpful and does not respond to correspondence.

[neville_nobody]

does not respond to correspondence.

If you write to a member of parliment they are required by law to respond to your correspondance.

[teresa green]

:ugh:Yes Neville, and they cover that by simply putting out a standard letter. Dear Mr. Bloggs, thankyou for your inquiry and your info has been noted, you will hear from us in a short period of time (pigs derriere) and in reality the letter has gone into the too hard basket. We have all had one of those.

[ampclamp]

I've never not received a reply from an MP or PM when I have raised problems or had a whinge.I may not get anything done or satisfaction but a reply has always come.
Next time you write cc it to his opposite number in the LIbs for a response.His staffers will note that the other side will know.Helps even things out a bit.

[Anthill]

It may be worth remembering that of the 830 pilots at Ansett, only about 550 were working as pilots 4 years later. A lot of industrial knowledge lost forever.

[Buster Hyman]

I'm surprised that no University in Oz has taken to researching the wide ranging affects of 17,000 people being put out of work at one time. The effects on local businesses, property, etc, and of course, the human effects would be an interesting study IMHO.

[Anthill]

Hi Buster,

The Ansett collapse caused a mini-reccession in Sutherland Shire as the discresionary spending of Ansett ex -employees stopped. Many businesses suffered as kids were pulled out of private school, dance classes, home renovations halted (except at my place), cars repossessed etc, etc...

I had a car that was salary packaged. I recieved 4 calls from wholesalers who expressed a willingness to 'help me out' by offering to take the car off my hands for about $15,000 below market rate. Lucky I had enough spare cash on hand to pay out the lease.

We were also bombarded with mail from real estate agents who all just happended to have cash buyers who were in love with our house and could offer a very quick settlement, if we were interested. Nah, we like our house and had paid it off.

Somebody in the company was obviously selling 'lists'--good luck to them, I hope they made some cash at a difficult time. I don't have much time for the vultures who were ready to make a fat profit at the misery of others.

My advise to anyone in aviation these days is dont carry a large house hold debt and be prepared to have to move or change career at a moments notice.

[youbuet]

10 years on and I and most are still proud to say they were part of Ansett. Does anyone know what % we will end up with and how many % we have already received. I hope our mates at Qantas don't go through the same , unfortunately the writing looks to be on the wall for them .

[AN1944]

GOT ZILCH,FED UP WAITING,JUST GOT GOOD MEMORIES ,LITTLE HOPE OF $$$$$$$$:ugh:

[Buster Hyman]

Similar to what happened in Sunbury Anthill, but I've not seen any figures released. Sudden surge of properties on the market drove the prices down, compounding the issue for those that HAD to sell!

Luckily, we had a "generous" bank that allowed us to stop repayments. Interest kept climbing & we ate up all the money that we were "ahead" with, but we kept the house. I think it was almost 3 years before we restarted our payments and not once did we get a call from the Bank asking us when we were planning to start paying it off.

[crocodile redundee]

The demise of Ansett taught me a lot. First- Never trust an Employer, Second- Never trust the Government, Third - Never think you are irreplaceable, Fourth- Never overcommit yourself financially, Fifth- When the "Culture" of a Company changes for the worse, & you can sense it, Resign.
When it was Good ,Ansett was GREAT. When it was Bad, Ansett was absolutely HORRIBLE!!!!!

I just try & think of the Good times........

[Metro man]

It may be worth remembering that of the 830 pilots at Ansett, only about 550 were working as pilots 4 years later. A lot of industrial knowledge lost forever.

Looking at a half full glass instead, 2 out of 3 were still working as pilots 4 years later. Take into account those who were near to retirement at the time of the collapse anyway and the picture looks a little better.

[Wally Mk2]

'Croc' that's good advice for sure but we plebs can't buy a house which is the biggest financial commitment in our lives without having a job, there's two of 'yr never trust/commit' suggestions unavoidable. Govt's? Well that's a given, NONE of us trust ANY Govt especially the mad woman at the helm these days!:ugh:Lastly as we have seen in recent times with the QF/J* antics we plebs are definitely replaceable.
I reckon those that did work for Ansett in the good 'ole days where proud & would have many a fond memory, those memories no high powered business man or Govt can take away.

Roll on the next ice-age, we need a good clean out !!!!!


Wmk2

[TBM-Legend]

what about the Ansett creditors and their employees? Many companies laid off staff or went broke without getting a brass razzoo from the Govt or fund...:uhoh:

[priapism]

10 cents in the dollar of outstanding monies owed- better than nothing I guess.

I had written it off from the start so all the payments drip fed to us over the last 9.5 years have been a bonus. I hope you all read ampclamp's newspaper article link. It still irks me that the government has actually made a tidy profit from Ansett's collapse. While employees will remain short changed and other creditors will get nothing. We should have got all our outstanding balances.

Water under the bridge - the collapse was hard on all of us to varying degrees.
The week after the collapse my wife had her work hours halved due to a new owner and cost cutting in the face of the extreme economic uncertainty of those days. We were hit with 1 and a half redundancies from 2 full time jobs.
All of a sudden I had to think about how I was going to meet the bills and when my teenage daughter was told she needed braces on her teeth - the $2500 cost tipped us over he edge for months. My dad helped out.

That said , I am in a way better place now. The collapse forced me out of my comfort zone and I am now realising my potential , academically and professionally in an entirely different occupation. I am only now making more money than 10 years ago and I'm working MANY more hours , with way more responsibility.

I chuckle to myself when I read about the threats made by the various unions at QF. Yes , management are a bunch of a#s#holes and things are tough on you but NEVER think your jobs are safe and your airline is immune from failure. I chuckle to myself at various reunions when I talk to some of my ex colleagues who were always whinging about AN management - working conditions etc. etc . Now they have a beer with me and tell me how good it was.

I hope QF employees won't have similar conversations in the future.

[Gnadenburg]

TBM perhaps you should investigate a little more closely what Ansett employees really got from the Howard government. A loan was provided by the government knowing full well it would be recovered by AN assets. Even then they were impatient and raised a ticket tax just in case...

So, 30,000 people unemployed in Australia's biggest corporate collapse was mitigated without much cost to government. The AN ticket tax went back into the government coffers. We didn't really get a "brass razoo" as you assert.

I even heard the money in the bank from our pilot union went to charity.

What I learn't from the AN collapse is a lot of folks, perversely, relished in other's misfortune. Especially those who bombed out in Ansett selection.

[Buster Hyman]

There, but for the grace of God...eh Gnads.

Pity the Govt. of the day, or later Governments didn't decide to supply some of that tax to the other creditors. What we, as employees, got from asset sales (95% or so) is what we should get. The leftover from the tax would've been handy for those secondary creditors who had no chance of a return.

[Worrals in the wilds]

What I learn't from the AN collapse is a lot of folks, perversely, relished in other's misfortune. Especially those who bombed out in Ansett selection.

Really? That's awful. :yuk:Some people are a waste of good oxygen.

I was rejected by Ansett (for a F/A position) about a year before the collapse. At the time I was absolutely devastated, because I'd always wanted to work for them. That didn't for one nanosecond impact on the horror I felt for people I'd worked alongside that were suddenly out of work, many of them not really well qualified for non-airline employment and a bit old to retrain easily. Every now and then I wonder where some of them ended up, of course a lot of people stayed in the industry (ex-Ansett types pop up in the strangest of places) but for so many baggies, CS staff, caterers et al it must have been really hard to adjust somewhere else.

What I do remember as an outsider is how sudden it was, one day Ansett was there, the next, you showed up for work at the airport and...it was gone. :sad: Was there much warning on the inside?

[unionist1974]

cr , mmmm never trust anyone

[Buster Hyman]

Was there much warning on the inside?
In hindsight, there was probably 10 years of warnings. But knowing what we knew at the time, coupled with US airspace being grounded, it wasn't a total surprise. :(

[Groaner]

Buster, if I recall, the first fall-over was Sept 10th, so no real trigger from the Sept 11 events.

[WalterMitty]

Yes, in hindsight many warnings. Just like at Qantas for the last 10 years.:eek:

[Buster Hyman]

Indeed Groaner, but Sept. 13 is when we stopped flying IIRC. Prior to Sept. 11 I think they were trying to keep flying whilst sorting it out but the attacks on America sealed our fate.

[Anthill]

Take into account those who were near to retirement at the time of the collapse anyway and the picture looks a little better.

Yeah, I think that there were about 70 guys who were in this position. It took me nearly a year to find a flying job, came close to giving up. I was accepted into NSW Ambulance as a paramedic (140 positions/5500 applicants-same SHL pyschometric as QF) then was offered a flying contract. I know of several young guys and girls who just never managed to resurect their careers-some very good operators, too. Many of these were under 40 when the music stopped.


What I learn't from the AN collapse is a lot of folks, perversely, relished in other's misfortune. Especially those who bombed out in Ansett selection


Yep. I met plenty of those. Also a few from 'that year' who still had issues. And remember a small group of rather immature staff from another airline coming into the Ansett terminal in Sydney to 'gloat'?

As for the collapse, it seemed to be coming from about the time that Paul Keating decided to merge TN and QF and then flog them off in a float. At that point AN started to lose a lot of big contracts- especially government contracts as QF was plumped up for the sale. The Defence Department contract was switched to QF even though it could not be serviced by their smaller domestic route network. Many of the larger companies switched their accounts to QF as their were obvious synergies.

There was nothing wrong with Ansett that $1,000,000,000 couldn't fix. Obviously there were too many types. QF and VB are on the same treadmil now. AN would have thrived had the B737 and B747s been ditched and replaced with A320s and B767-300ERs. Consider AN with say, 45 A320s and 15 B767s at the time. Air New Zealand becoming a shareholder for all the wrong reasons was the final reason for the downfall. The fallout was that the NZ taxpayer had to bail out ANZ to the tune of $4,400 for every man/woman/child in their country. The Howard government also saw the chance for some 'reform' in the airline industry- get rid of a large group of highly paid (although very productive) pilots, cabin crew and ground staff and let the new comer, Virgin, set the new industrial model. Tiger and Jetstar became the by-product of this new order.

The later point is the lesson for those at QF now. The government has your careers well and truely in their sights. You people make way to much money for the liking of those who make the rules. The aviation reform agenda is continuing and I don't like where it will probably end up. Neither will you. However, QF, TN and AN staff were all lucky enough to see the Golden Years of Airlines in this country.

[boocs]

Well written Anthill. And for the reasons you have listed, this is also why many many former AN pilots are now working o/seas.
b.

[B772]

EWP

Suggest you email [email protected] and ask the question.

By the way many 10 year reunions being planned throughout Australia to take place in Sep and Oct.

[Teal]

.....Korda Mentha will not communicate...




Saw Mentha last Sunday at junior footy in his lovely CL500 Merc.

EWP - If you want his direct email address, PM me.

[unionist1974]

This IS good news , to my many old comrades at Ansett . I am relieved you have finally got what was your all along . An ABSOLUTLEY act of Corporate Ba***rdy . By that big fat fool Toomey. Good luck in you future , you all took a massive hit you did not deserve .

[Eastwest Loco]

Buster

Was there much warning on the inside? Oh yeah! A client of mine who is a senior "blue helmet" working in up country Pakistan at the time was advised 2 weeks prior to the AN collapse that any bookings held needed to be moved to other carriers.

The date was mentioned in the release.

Our Government knew, otherwise how did the word get to outpost in the Sub Continent?

The word was out in the travel industry, but without validation but what my client had was documented by an organisation who knew what was going on.

One must assume this came from reliable Government sources.

As I have said before, the whole thing was orchestrated by SQ who, with their 2 members on the NZ board conspired to collapse Ansett.

Logical really, as that way they could ride in on white horses and rescue the flailing Airline they knew NZ (Or TE - love that reference ) could in their current state not organise a **** fight in a sewerage farm and would buy said farm.

There were 2 ways to take over Ansett. The 1st being to buy it as was and take over all staff and assets but then have to remove and replace the top 3-4 levels of management keeping the viable but Abeles stripped beast alive at great cost. This would have cost a fortune as those canned would have cost multi millions to make redundant.

Logical thoughts were to put NZ via the board implants in charge as they had no hope to keep it running. If it all went pear shaped, no mud thrown at the Merlion at all - NZ cops the rubbish. Face saved - slink away and deny everything. Collapse - lose the staff at no cost - buy remains and start afresh leaving staff to fight previous alleged management for their entitlements.

Aquisition on AN was very important for SQ as they held the much coveted trans Pacific licences SQ still covet, plus an important domestic feeder network.

This may have all worked and probably would have.

Small problem was a group of potential Western Sydney residents flying aeroplanes into stationary objects threw the airline industry into a severe stall and SQ cut their losses and went away. I can't help but think Tiger was a weak attempt at a retry.

One also wonders if a certain trucking groups alleged attempt with the draw out until others ran out of funding for rebirthing Ansett was not a cynical attempt to make sure nobody else got hold of it and made it viable to leave a gap in the industry to be crept into later.

If we knew it all we would not sleep nights.

Be well and keep the culture good people.

EWL

[slamer.]

EWL .... nice summary. Good to see some informed and unemotional discussion on this .... finally.

[teresa green]

Us TAA blokes felt the same as we watched as Strong totally dismantled our much loved airline. It felt like somebody kicked you in the guts. Now after reading the Australian only 10 minutes ago, I have a terrible feeling some of the QF blokes are about to get the same sinking feeling. 1000 staff members on very shaky ground indeed, as Joyce takes QF to Asia.:*

[dynasty744]

Spoke to Korda Mentha this morning - Ansett payments being made within the next 2 weeks and definately be end of August, which is 2 weeks max! Good news...after 10 years our super will be released and final payment made, closure at last.....spread the word!

Well that didn't happen, anyone got any other information???

[priapism]

I don't know about others but my link to the Ansett staff website no longer works and hasn't for several weeks.

[benjam]

What AN Staff website?

[Jetro6UL]

Ansett Australia - Home (http://www.ansett.com.au)

Then click on "Staff Information"...password "anpeople"

Still works for me. Nothing new since December though.

[Jetro6UL]

It's up:

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/6523/ansett.jpg

[Romulus]

I had a car that was salary packaged. I recieved 4 calls from wholesalers who expressed a willingness to 'help me out' by offering to take the car off my hands for about $15,000 below market rate.

Fricking heck! What sort of car and what sort of price?

[benjam]

Thanks for the info

[Jetro6UL]

No worries.

[Anthill]

Romulus-- Nothing flash Subaru Liberty RX wagon (every option..). I still have it, 230,000km and it runs like a clock. Best car ever...;)

Best offer was $22,000 for an 8 month old car (list price was nearly $50k).

[Jetro6UL]

Deposit made into my account this afternoon.

Thanks Korda/Mentha.....you guys did well (to the tune of many, many millions).

Thanks also to the Minister for Qantas (John Anderson), Air NZ, former PM John Howard, and the fantastic management of Ansett who made it all possible.

It was a wild ride.

[RATpin]

And please,lets not forget M.M.W,later of SACL fame.

[Buster Hyman]

As I have been "paid" for the last 9 years & 355 days by Ansett, I can now say that after 27 & a half years, I have officially left the aviation business with this final payment. :(

I'm so glad to have been a part of the Korda/Mentha money making machine, and I wish those guys all the very best as they suck the life out of the next carcass they prey upon! :mad:

[the rim]

am glad to hear that you guys and girls got your money....or at least some of it....hopefully the backroom boys get some sort of praise for keeping the ansett fight alive,so give a little credit to David K.and his mates from the past ALAEA fed ex...they always kept the dream alive

[ReverseFlight]

And it's official ...
Ansett workers get closure, 10 years on (http://www.theage.com.au/national/ansett-workers-get-closure-10-years-on-20110902-1jpqa.html)
With today's final dividend of $5.3 million, they had received on average 96 cents in the dollar, administrators KordaMentha said.

[FlareArmed]

I'll miss my annual Christmas bonus – it seemed to arrive just in the nick of time each year.

[Touch'n'oops]

Really glad to hear you finally got most of what was owed to you guys.

Still a damn shame, the time it took and the fact that Ansett folded in the first place.

At least you had people behind the scenes working on this a decade on.

[keagy]

What of Ansett Coal and the regional airline they intend to have running December 2011 with 4 Dash 8's?

[Tankengine]

Not part of the Ansett that died 10 years ago.

[TheNightOwl]

G'day, all,

I got my notification of the final dividend on Monday, and I sat down this morning to work out the %age received vs sum owed.

Of the "Redundancy owed greater than eight weeks" sum of $86264.94, I have been paid, via the 14 dividends, the total of $78191.02, leaving $8073.92 to be found somewhere in the ether!
That's a rate of 90.64%, and I have no complaints at all, it's a damned sight more than I expected 10 years ago. I'm quite impressed with the two Marks - I understand that our loss was their windfall, but I'm sure that we fared far better with them than with the course which I believe the original appointees had in mind. IIRC they were PWC?

Kind regards from a reasonably happy TNO>:ok:

[fender]

What gripes me most is how the government double dipped and made a fortune from the closure.
If I remember correctly there was a $10/ ticket tax until some $330 million was raised and then they required the same amount back from the administrators.
If that's true then...................

[ampclamp]

The feds cleaned up big time. That really pi$$ed off a lot of people who were happy enough to pay the levy but not just to prop up general revenue. I think I received about 90% also. can't complain about that. Ansett were lucky to have still owned some assets worth selling to fund redundancies. Thanks to all who helped out. It was pretty tough early on.

Are there any reunions planned?

[unionist1974]

Good luck and best wishes to all ex Ansett colleagues , coming up to an emotional time for you all . My thoughts are with you all and sincere best wishes for your future .

[B772]

ampclamp. I hear their are reunions and lunches/dinners in most capital cities.

You may also be interested in After Ansett | Careers of Strength and Spirit (http://www.afteransett.com)

[denabol]

There is a series of stories running on Plane Talking about the Ansett collapse that read like chapters from a book. I'm not sure if they are much comfort for the victims of Ansett in what I've read so far but there is stuff there I've never heard of before.

It talks about Toomey resigning all his directorships a month before Ansett was shut down by the first by the first administrators, and a new name for Ansett that was about to be put on a 767 in hanger in Christchurch, it was going to be Pacific Star maybe, and how Singapore Airlines and Qantas both refused to buy Ansett for $1 a week before it went under.

Ansett 2001: Was it to be Pacific Star or Australian Star? | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/09/10/the-ansett-diary-pacific-star-or-australian-star/)

[Kev9]

After Ansett | Careers of Strength and Spirit (http://www.afteransett.com/)


What a cynical individual :mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Nero62]

This ends a sad chapter in Australian Aviation. Ansett was a great company, but it flourished in an environment of government protection. Its cost base was not sustainable in the deregulated world that brings us cheap plasmas. Qantas faces the same issue and has only survived due to Ansett's collapse. Now, its strategy is to back the brand that makes the most money. Seems reasonable. I wonder when that premium carrier has been relegated to history, how those staff will feel. Will they blame everyone else too? Australians need to take some lessons from Ansett. Be efficient or be unemployed.

[ampclamp]

yes its cost base was not sustainable especially after years of cashflow shifting to TNT and Newscorp when they were nearly broke. Air NZ were half the size and to be frank, at the time, incompetent.Their ambition was clearly higher than their ability to carry out any due diligence on what was a hollow log.

[Whiskery]

Nero62..............interesting handle for a management plant.;)

Cryptic for new ruler perhaps or........something more sinister maybe?

[Anthill]

That's right Lefty :ok:

As for you, Nero, I might add that a poor tradesman blames his tools and a poor manager blames their staff :=

[Lookleft]

Reading recent AIPA cautions about being stressed worried and about mortgages I can't help remembering what it was like ten years ago. I feel very sorry for the QF pilots who are going through all this at the moment. Although their company hasn't been shut down uncertainty is still a crap feeling.

I also never take for granted that the pay goes in on the 14th of the month.

And for Ner62 the past does predict the future-it was corporate greed and incompetence that did Ansett in and it will do the same to Qantas.

[1746]

Spot on! Lefty

[ampclamp]

If the 'last in first out' rule is applied at QF there will be quite a few ex-Ansett boys and girls back on the scrap heap. :(

[obie2]

Just as a matter of interest, how much did the overseas scab pilots, who joined Ansett after the 89' pilots dispute, walk away with after only 10 yrs service, compared to most of you with probably 25 to 40 yrs service?

[RU/16]

Obie,
Get a life!

[obie2]

So, you are probably one of those overseas scabs 16?
Just waiting to jump ship again, but this time to Qantas?

[airsupport]

Finally, what goes around comes around. :ok:

[Kev9]

obie2

Is that...?

Alex Pa?terson
The individual who orchastrated the 'Sc@blist'?

Good to see your rehab is going well.:ugh:

[RU/16]

Just been to the Perth reunion great to see everyone and that the family lives on.
Obie youd be happy to know all scabs healed!!!!!!
keep smiling

[B772]

I notice the ABC program on the 10th Anniversary of the fall of AN ran for almost 7 minutes. Good to see and recognise some of the faces at the sell out lunch in MEL on a staff website. The only one showing his age was Keith W.l.a.e