Which is the cheapest and best helicopter for surveillance, TV, film and photography?

[fiando]

Hi all,

Following on from an earlier thread of mine - "Bell 206B Jet Ranger and Twin Squirrel running costs" - I am just wondering if any of you guys would be kind enough to give me your opinion on which type of helicopter on the market represents the best value for money platform - for survey, film, TV and aerial photography work - be it the 206B, the Twin Squirrel, or another type.

I am also interested to know what the overall (fixed and variable) running cost of the best types would be, per hour. Anything that you could help me with, in that regard, would be very much appreciated!

Many thanks for your help!

Cheers,

fiando.

[Agaricus bisporus]

That question is far too general for a reply that answers all its points without writing a thesis.
However, clearly a single is far more economical than a twin so you have to assess whether/how much you will to be in twin territory (over congested areas, hovering inside a single's avoid curve or low and heavy in a twin). If you can use a single maybe a (ugh) Robbo would do the job? The '44 has a decent payload.

The 206 is an excellent camera platform if it is smooth, and most, but not all can be made so. They are all individuals. Long Rangers are generally much less prone to vibes. The 355 is not as inherently smooth but modern camera systems may not be affected anyway. Depends on what you are doing with it and what kit you will use.

Do you need floats for over water? That limits payload.

Doors off speed limits are a consideration, a mere 80Kts on the 355 if memory serves. Unlimited on the 206. Well, only limited by it's lowish top speed that is.

There may be speed restrictions due to bolt-on role equipment if it is external.

And so on.

[Helinut]

Following on from Agi's post, amongst the many variables you need to fix, you need to tell us which country you want to operate, as a start. The country will change the rules that need to be complied with and also significantly affects the costs of operation.

I don't mean to be abrupt but if you know so little, the best thing to do is put out a tender bid and ask your local operators what they will charge you. This is not an area to get into without experience and knowledge.

[Flying Binghi]

...which type of helicopter on the market represents the best value for money platform - for survey, film, TV and aerial photography work - be it the 206B, the Twin Squirrel, or another type.



fiando, fer a start, do a google of the advertisments of companys doing the sort of work you are interested in and see what sort of machines they use. You'll probably pick up a common machine to many..:)





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[Vizsla]

R44
They do a "News Chopper" version with all approvals for gyros and microwave links etc. A few operating in the UK - contact Sloane Heli

[fiando]

Hi All,

Thank you very much for your prompt responses! As you can tell, I'm quite clearly not a rotary guy! My background is ATPL - i.e. no 'H' - but I am now looking at the viability of setting up a commercial helicopter operation. It will be based in the UK and, as previously mentioned, will involve survey, film, TV and photographic work.

I am well aware that this will be FAR from a cheap undertaking! However, I think I might have an 'angle', which makes it worth my while 'doing the math', as they say.

In answer to some of your previous points - all very much appreciated:

Agaricus bisporus - no floats: this will be all over land.

Helinut - as mentioned, this will be a UK operation. BTW, you weren't abrupt at all! Your suggestions were valid and very useful.

Flying Binghi - I have done a Google search and have so far come up with one UK charter operator, who quotes the following (all prices per hour, in GBP, excl. VAT):

ROBINSON R44 - 450

BELL 206 JET RANGER - 700

EUROCOPTER EC120 COLIBRI - 750

AEROSPATIALE SQUIRREL - 800

AEROSPATIALE TWIN SQUIRREL - 1200

BELL 206L LONG RANGER - 800

AGUSTA 109 - 1400

SIKORSKY S76 - 2500

Obviously these figures have a certain profit margin factored in. Am I right in thinking that the 'norm' in rotary charter ops is a margin of about 10-15%?

I have also done an initial bit of research on Prune, and found the following (sorry, I can't remember who this came from):

JetRanger costs per flying hour: Say £300/£350 inc insurance for the hire/owner. Fuel (depends where you buy it) lets say for the sake of argument £90.00 per hour. Pilot, allow £60.00 (maybe a Day Rate will be applied subject to the task being undertaken). Allow for AOC charges and admin say £50.00 per hour. You are up to £500/550 per hour for the charter and that is before the operator puts a profit margin into the equation. Thus most JetRanger operators will be quoting based on between £550 & £650 per hour.

Vizsla - many thanks for the Sloane Heli suggestion.

Based on the above, I'm beginning to get an idea of the running cost of these various types; but I would really appreciate it if any of you chaps could either flesh out the numbers, a little - or point me in the direction of a source, where I might be able to do so.

Once again, many thanks for taking the time to offer your advice. It is people like you that make Prune such a great resource.

Best regards,

fiando.

[riff_raff]

The most cost effective helicopter for filming/video/aerial survey has to be the Yamaha RMAX (http://www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/global/news/2002/02/06/sky.html).

You can't physically ride along though. :(

[MikeNYC]

Fiando,

I'm based in the US and do a lot of technical work supporting aerial photography and video. In NYC our preferred aircraft is a Twin Squirrel (TwinStar over here), followed by a Squirrel. The flat floor makes a big difference on some aerial photography jobs, and aircraft with a sliding door can be quite nice when there's a long transit to the target location, especially in winter. As "Agaricus" mentions earlier, doors off Vne is a consideration, which is why the sliding door option can be very valuable. As I understand it, the R44 is the only light single that doesn't have a Vne limition with aft doors removed. Agaricus, you sure 206's don't have a limitation with doors removed? While we don't have regulations in the US regarding twins vs singles over densely populated areas, it's very common to use twins when low and slow over cities. I've worked in most common singles out there (H500, 269, 206B/L, 407, AS350, EC130) and the Squirrel are a preference for those of us in the back. The EC130 was great to work in too, but many camera mounts are designed only for AS350/355 and 206, and so STCs are most common for those types. I can't speak to the cost of operation side of things but in the US the AS355 is the most common "production" helicopter for big-budget movie filming. When our budget allows, the 355 is my choice... and we spend between $1500-$1800/hr roughly for charters.

[mickjoebill]

Each aircraft can deliver something different, ie operating costs, payload, choice of camera mounts, performance and noise vary with each aircraft.

Importantly, each of these factors can have an effect on the quality of image you deliver to your client.

If what you are doing (your angle) is competitive, then efficiencies (= profit) has as more to do with tailoring the camera/aircraft (as a unit) to the task than anything else.

So starting at the end :) what do you need to deliver to your client?


Mickjoebill

[Flying Binghi]

The most cost effective helicopter for filming/video/aerial survey has to be the Yamaha RMAX.



UAV with a 25Kg payload and a GPS positional accuracy of one cubic metre. A tool with multiple posibilities.




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[fiando]

Hi All,

This is turning into a really interesting thread! Many thanks for all your input.

I will consider all of your suggestions and will post again soon.

Many thanks again!

fiando

[TRC]

With one or both aft doors off it's limited to 87kts (100mph) isn't it?

The 350 is 70kts (81mph) with any permitted door-off configuration, but 110kts (127 mph) with a sliding door open.

:8

[lelebebbel]

As I understand it, the R44 is the only light single that doesn't have a Vne limition with aft doors removed.

R44 Vne is 100kts with any door removed

[cockney steve]

Following on from the R-Max suggestion....BERGEN ...These are massive "toy" helis, capable of ~25 lb payload and run on Mogas.

Normal M.O. entails a R/C pilot, who has on-board video facilities, a seperate R C operator looks after the filming which is normallyradio-linked to a ground console.

the regulation is far less onerous than full-size and the costs are therefore dramatically reduced.

Yes, it does depend on just what you're doing, but these gyro-stabilised machines are altering the face of aerial photography.

For in-depth knowledge you should peruse the dedicated "Aerial Photography" forum on Runryder, the model heli forum.

Note, they aren't toys and it's not a 5-minute job to learn the necessary skills. They can and do kill people that don't show the respect due to an unguarded 6foot flying rotary mower.

Oh, and the R-Max is lease only and megabux compared to the smaller stuff,just as full-size is megabux to the R-Max.

[Flying Binghi]

Following on from the R-Max suggestion

...the regulation is far less onerous than full-size...

..you should peruse the dedicated "Aerial Photography" forum on Runryder...


It may soon be harder to get these units. Apparently the Japanese government has already been at Yamaha for selling the units to China.

Then there is the terrorism concerns....

via dkshema over at Runryder: "...it isn't going to take a bureaucrat very long to stretch his or her wild imagination and cite this as a security threat.

The second threat is the plethora of people who see that they can buy cheap GPS driven autopilots and build a home-brew unmanned air vehicle. Of course there are no longer UAV's, but they are UAS -- unmanned aerial systems.

Both of these operations will get us some serious regulation very quickly..."

Latest AMA magazine...Beware...The FAA is coming... - Page 1 - RunRyder RC Helicopter (http://rc.runryder.com/helicopter/t620361p1/)


Might be easyier to stick with the full size heli..:)






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[bolkow]

I agree with cockney steve, it took me the best part of five years to begin to master the complexities in flying large remore control helicopters.

[strey]

Can these remote controlled little buggers carry big high-definition cameras? I guess that's is something to take into account.

[bolkow]

no but you'd be amazed at whathas been developed in minature nowadays. Nerver used themmyself but have viewed many clips taken from cameras attached or carried by remote control helicopters and if you did'nt know it you would assume it was a full size machine that did the job.

[Helinut]

Fiando,

Some questions that illustrate the mass of issues you will need to consider:

Do you wish to fly over congested areas without significant restriction? Do you wish to fly extensively over hostile terrain, including over the sea?

Do you wish to fly at night?

These "operations" you propose to carry out are there any people going to be onboard who are not employed by the organisation you are planning to setup?

Depending upon the answer to these questions will determine whether you need an AOC, +/or to use twin engine helicopters.

The cheapest type will be an R22. It is unlikely to be the most effective for any practical purpose. Your question about types is too simplistic to answer meaningfully.

Are you planning to win long-term contracts or do work on the ad-hoc market?

There is enormous enthusiasm by some for UAVs (especially those who want to sell them). At present, for non-military purposes they have limited application when it comes to a range of operations. Many of these limitations are imposed by the safety authorities, and those who control airspace. Like normal helicopters this too is a specialist area. If you plan to go into either activity, the most important thing you will need to do is acquire expertise. If you don't have it, you will need to acquire it by buying it (one way or the other).

An awful lot of experienced and established UK helicopters operators are going to the wall at the moment, what with the ever increasing regulatory burden and the general economic situation. It might be wise to ask yourself why you think your new outfit will be able to make a profit when so many existing outfits cannot do so, at the moment. Some time and thought applied to that rather boring question could save you a lot of time and money, in the end.

[Thomas coupling]

Fiando. Please take this constructively. The way you have presented yourself on here asking the sort of questions you ask, suggests to me that perhaps this 'domain' is not one in which you are comfortable with.
The approach is nieve, borderline innocent.
If you really want to know how to set up and run a proper TV/surveillance/ charter helicopter company, talk to Mike or Keith at Castle Air, probably the best in this field in the UK.

Whether they will divulge anything is a different story !

Good luck....you are going to need it:ugh: