Legalities of Pilot Strike Breakers

[mohikan]

I understand that a leading european crewing company is having meetings with "the nudist" over the next few days to discuss the supply of strike breakers.

Stay tuned.......

[Mr. Hat]

Strikes are different these days.. not the traditional type of stop work.

[aussie027]

Maybe the unions /workers could get their point across more effectively to mgmt after all attempts at talking have failed if strikes were like in days gone by, stop work style, and in our industry, planes parked and only the birds flying.

[maggot]

I understand that a leading european crewing company is having meetings with "the nudist" over the next few days to discuss the supply of strike breakers.

Stay tuned.......

well, if they're dealing with the nudist we'll have no problems at all :}

[WannaBeBiggles]

I was just pondering this morning after reading another thread, is it even possible to have pilot strike breakers come from external contracting firms?

If they came directly in to a company during a strike they wouldn't be route qualified, so wouldn't really be legally allowed to fly those sectors (if my interpretation of the CAO's is correct) and I'm sure that the unions would have cause to be upset if a bunch of contractors would start showing up and taking up C&T time to get route qualified.

I know some of this happened back in the 80's, but not entirely sure of what ended up happening, so thought I'd pose the question. :)

[RHLMcG]

Wasn't a problem for the airlines in 1989-90.

Suggest you search for a few threads on the Dispute and form your own opinion. Mind you, you will need to wade through a lot of diatribe but the story is reasonably easy to tease out.

The Government makes and, therefore, can remake the rules to suit the need of the day. Some of the things done in 89-90 were nothing short of disgraceful.

I shudder to think of the consequences for the Qantas pilots contemplating significant industrial action in the present marketplace.

[mohikan]

Understand this was looked into yesterday in the meeting between the Irish and the Nudist.

Biggles is correct. The rules will simply be varied. Remember the current minister is an avowed enemy of pilots after the flight deck access 'victory' last year.

The strike breakers will be paid huge amounts of money. Plenty of furloughed yanks (in particular) who have 'form' in this area.

AIPA is aware of the problem, and has it built in to its strategy.

[ANCDU]

I can't see them using strikebreakers, the public doesn't have much tolerance for this type of tactic anymore, this is basically why we have protected industrial action, it protects both sides. Qantas would just transfer everyone onto their "codeshare" partners anyway....and they have another airline that is the "star" of the group that they can use in asia and domestically to reduce inconvenience.

[rmm]

The Govt did rule out foreign labour during the last engineers dispute in 2008.

Strike could ground Qantas | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/strike-could-ground-qantas/story-e6frg95x-1111115236772)

Senator Evans told The Australian yesterday he would block any attempts to use foreign labour to thwart domestic strike action.

"The Government will not allow the 457 visa scheme to be used as a device to overcome an industrial dispute," he said in a statement. "The 457 visa class is designed to meet temporary skills shortages where Australian-based labour cannot be sourced.

[Budfox]

Bottom line is its going to cost the company LARGE amounts of $$$$$$$$
for any strikebreakers. :ouch:
Not good when the company is making wafer thin profits and crying poor
at the state of their business and how tough things are. :{
Reckless spending is out of control let alone the fines they are getting !!
If they don't try and protect the bottom line then I'm calling that a sub $2.00 share price will be seen soon. :(

[Capt Kremin]

For strikebreakers to be effective... there has to be a strike.

[Terrey]

One would hope in the current climate at the airline that if the Strike Breakers were called in the Aircraft would not be signed out, the baggage would not be loaded, and the TWU might take an interest as well.

[Ndicho Moja]

Read Capt Kremin's comment. Prevent history repeating itself.

Terrey......Hope has nought to do with it.

[sixtiesrelic]

ANCDU you have a lot to learn!
The public couldn't care less if strike breakers work, because when it comes down to the line they live by the bugger-you-jack principle.
"I want to go on day X don't stuff up my plans".
Twenty years ago no one cared... why will they change now?
The government soon changed the rules to chop off the pilot's heads ... same party again.

[3 Holer]

... same party again. Wouldn't matter what party was in. The public perception is that pilots are a privileged group of overpayed,glorified bus drivers. No sympathy means no one cares so the government at the time will do whatever it takes to win votes!
Nothing has changed. As has been mentioned on another thread, you have to organise a PR exercise and secure public support when threatening industrial action or else...................well, the duck season opened sometime last month!

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

In the LAME dispute of 2008 we faced this same problem. A company was opened up called Newport Aviation and started recruiting. They were restricted to Aussies who could work without 457 visas. The contracts were for 6 months, $60K for the period paid fortnightly and a $40K bonus on completion of the full term. A healthy sum for a LAME of $200k per year.

Of course we had some mates sign up to feed us back the info from the inside. Becasue of this we kept on faking our attacks to make sure Newport weren't called upon until after they had already engaged the guys for 6 months. They had to sign them all up for a second term before they had even stepped foot on a tarmac.

They had about 60 guys. Before the real action had even started, they had blown $6 million. AIPA will be aware of exactly what is going on with any strikebreakers as we are this time also.

Some of my mates pocketed the 100k and walked away without leaving home. I look forward to the free beer.

[TBM-Legend]

you'd better call in Brian McCarthy. He'll lead you to the promised land...:hmm:

[Ken Borough]

One would hope in the current climate at the airline that if the Strike Breakers were called in the Aircraft would not be signed out, the baggage would not be loaded, and the TWU might take an interest as well.

What's the law in 2011 WRT secondary boycotts?

[Slasher]

QF management will have to buy the necessary politicians in
order to successfully screw its pilots like AN management did
in 89. They'd only need one or two to be effective and keep the
unions in check (anyone remember that bloody Kelty?)

Be of no doubt whatsoever that scabs (oh dear, can they be
called that under the Oz PC nazi rules?) will come flocking in
from overseas, attracted to the high salaries that'll be given,
as well as the current strength of the AUD. The silver bodgie
and the fat man ensured DOT (I think its called CASA now)
issued Oz ATPLs to those dregs of dubious safety and ability.
Cigar smoke permeated DOT for a year or two after that to ensure
the scabs stayed put if they wanted to remain in the so-called
lucky country (I've never forgotten how the "regulatory body"
permitted its standards to be lowered for political reasons. I like
rubbing their grubby little noses in it from time to time when they
try coming the raw prawn, and I have no doubt they would do it
again when instructed to by their ALP masters).

Of course the Fat Man-orchestrated 89 event never had to happen
- AN/TN/QF pilots knew it, I knew it, Jimmy Bow Tie knew it, Feds
knew it, the media knew it, Trades Hall knew it, all except your
average knuckle-dragging ALP-voting d!ckhead in the street who
wanted pilots to be dragged down several pegs under the Cutting
Tall Poppies syndrome (a disease I believe still permeates down
there). Be of no doubt it will happen again if there is a next time.

One certainty anyone can bank on is the gullibility of the Oz public
in believing anything written in a newspaper, especially anything
written by "editorials" or "respected journos" in a form that "makes
sense". Even though News Corp have nothing to do with QF as far
as I know, if AIPA try anything they'd better really consider how
the political machinations of the Oz media operates above all else.

Lastly, its a no-brainer that Joyce is intent on dragging QF Mainline
down to the same mickey mouse standard of the domestics (or lower
if that's possible), and that :mad:hole won't give up without a hard
fight.

[airtags]

Secondary boycott provisions leave little room but I'm sure that there are dozens of ways things can be made difficult - procedure queries, discretionary stuff like the CC not calling for boarding while any Eng's/Caterers are doing anything etc etc - that would at the very least slow things down. I could also imagine the SMS and the likes of Repcon would be flooded with reports.

The real sad thing however is that after all the EBA stuff is signed and settled - it's a long way along a path of broken glass to restore trust/partnership.

Unfortunately with the little bloke still struggling to see over the top of his wallet and constantly crying poor/foul there is little faith or integrity. Added to that the inflamatory factually incorrect nonsense from the scaggy witch of worthless PR and the whole thing is a mess.

What's more with that magic $2 line getting even closer and must be almost at the point where the institutionals start putting real pressure on.

For all the unions involved the mandate is to be 200% professional and stand firm. The race to the bottom for the moment has been overtaken by the need for a dysfunctional Mgrs, Exec & Board to come up with the goods. The real power will be for the Unions to keep AJ & Co on the edge of the cliff looking down at the valley of failure for as long as possible.

The rules of the EBA game should have been the first agreement.

AT

[breakfastburrito]

Good post airtags.

[Budfox]

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/ausboy00/westgraph.jpg

And here it is folks.
The magic chart showing the share price since its listing on the ASX basically back were it started.

If you had held since the float in 1995 and going of the closing price on 20/5/2011, you would have made roughly %10 in that time !!
And if you were an institutional investor getting the $2.00 issue price, then
congratulations you are all up about %5.

May as well have parked all those 100's of millions of dollars into interest bearing accounts during those last 16 years. :rolleyes:

Whats more of interest now is that according to various brokers the general consensus is that QAN is a BUY. However looking at the chart looks to me like another downtrend is playing out.
Interesting times indeed. :uhoh:

Wonder if Ms Wirth would like to explain this to the investors about how their investment has performed during this time?

[Management In Charge]

The use of strike breakers during periods of dispute is not unusual. All the recent emotion about this from the frontline workers is a joke. Strike Breakers are part and parcel of life these days and they certainly do a wonderful job. It is imperative that our planes keep flying, our passengers remain happy, our KPI’s and bonus criteria is met and the shareholder remains happy. Not to employ Strike Breakers would be unwise, unethical and poorly planned.
Our Strike Breakers are extremely well trained people. They often perform a better job than the salaried full time workforce they are temporarily replacing and they are more highly skilled and far more adaptive and appreciative of the difficult financial environment we all work in.

Management believe that Strike Breakers should be included in future Enterprise Agreements and that the role of the Strike Breaker should have its own PD attached and form part of the organisations structure. This would allow management to widen the scope of productivity ensuring the shareholder is adequately cared for and incurs no loss to their portfolio value. The fact is that an aeroplane is easy to fly, an engine is easy to replace, and a couple of bags are easy to stack underneath. One does not need an overpaid workforce to fulfil this task. It is Management and HR that make an organisation continue to run effectively and profitably and the sooner that frontline workers realise this the better.

Yes, truly, the role of the Strike Breaker in modern business models is a highly valued and highly respected role. Management and the Strike Breakers look forward to future synergies and a strong bond.

The Boardroom Beckons

[hotnhigh]

The race to the bottom for the moment has been overtaken by the need for a dysfunctional Mgrs, Exec & Board to come up with the goods. The real power will be for the Unions to keep AJ & Co on the edge of the cliff looking down at the valley of failure for as long as possible.


Spot on airtags. The greatest sadness in all of this is that managements only solution to the degradation in qantas market share is to attack employees.
Only now is the penny starting to drop with some of the "media types" out there that there are fundamental problems with the business and won't be solved by the current board due to their arrogance, inability to look further ahead beyound next years numbers, and to provide the illusion of doing something to somehow impress major institutional shareholders by taking on all of your employees whom management deem to be the reason why the wheels are falling of the qantas groups profitability.

The question I would put to Mr Clifford, Mr Joyce and the qantas board is simply,
Why should I fly Qantas internationally? And what problems do you have with the international operation?
It would be interesting to hear their responses. They wont identify the problems that they have created, they will only blame inefficient staff.
Not the fact that I can choose a number of different carriers that offer newer aircraft, more cabin crew compliment and a greater number of services per day from a multitude of Australian ports where Qantas either has one or none.
This our home ground for goodness sake! They wont identify that the reduction in international market share has been mirrored by the arrival of jetstar and the transfer of business to that operation. They wont acknowledge that more and more Australians are travelling now more than ever and they have positioned Qantas not to capitalize on this.

They will never get it I'm afraid. However, I hope the major shareholders do get it before it's too late.

[DutchRoll]

For strikebreakers to be effective... there has to be a strike.
Correct. I know AIPA and certainly most QF pilots are acutely aware of this. They have had a lot of time to formulate plans and look back at what not to do, to avoid history repeating itself.

If there is no strike, your strike breakers are useless but will cost you a lot of money.

[rodchucker]

Yes but that wont impact Exec bonuses because they had contingency plans against the masses, so they were always in control with a well executed plan.

Pity they never ask why they were where they were?Then again the level of delusion would be sustained.

Guess if we don't hear about a mass exodus on Monday then the mooted friday meeting of Fund Managers never happened?

[ThePaperBoy]

This is going to get very interesting...

MIC, if in fact you are part of QF management in any capacity I think it's best you rethink some of your comments:


It is Management and HR that make an organisation continue to run effectively and profitably and the sooner that frontline workers realise this the better.



Since you are so highly skilled you better run back to your university studies and read up on the bits about organisational behaviour and keeping a work force motivated. While you're at it have a read of some case studies about Southwest and Continental (Bethune era) and discover how to engage your workforce and therefore increase productivity. You will discover some outstanding tactics to ensure a win-win situation that didn't involve handing out extra money. I don't believe this battle is about an extra 3% or some seats on a long haul flight, it is about respect. It is not within this country's norm to treat the workforce with disrespect and hope they obey, but then again maybe that is why you are trying to push into some Asian countries.

Maybe you could just have a look across the tarmac and see how Borghetti is going with his workforce. Once their cost structure has been sorted and Game Change plans fully implemented you are in for a world of pain. VA staff are in the majority paid less than QF, but that doesn't seem to affect motivation.

I'm not part of the QF or VA group, but I am an army of one. My business travels might be only worth a few thousand dollars a year, but that is a few thousand dollars less QF shareholders will see in their annual report this year. Listening to a few business travellers on VA this work I am not alone.

[max1]

Some people just don't get sarcasm:ok:

[max1]

Think about what $2 bought in '96 and what it would buy now.
I think things have about tripled in that time. Share price would need to be around $6 now just to hold something near value. I bought BHP around that time for about $10.
If it came to it, I would prefer to defer my travel than support scabs. I don't think the airlines would actually allow me to do this. I would probably have to do my dough.
All Australians have a dog in this fight, some just have smaller dogs.

[Compylot]

Some people just don't get sarcasmhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Please don't be too harsh, as pilots we are required to make quick, no nonsense decisions in minimum time. We need to be fast at weighing up the facts and forming a response which can be impulsive at times.


It is called command decision making and is the cornerstone of all effective commercial pilots. :ok:

[breakfastburrito]

+1000 insightful post.









</sarc>

[FOCX]

I'm no finance wiz, but I seriously doubt any super fund/managed fund or whatever holds any investment for 16 wks let alone 16 yrs! The only investors who do that are not very well educated mum & dad retail investors (finance wise that is). So statement re bank interest are just stupid and make us look stupid! Please, don't say Buffet as he wouldn't invest in an airline!

Management In Charge is doing a copy of THE MANAGEMENT on the FH forum, a not very good copy as well I might add!

[Qanchor]

Pure gold MIC, you got another one, hook, line & sinker. Keep em coming.

[Budfox]

I'm no finance wiz, but I seriously doubt any super fund/managed fund or whatever holds any investment for 16 wks let alone 16 yrs!


Actually FOCX I disagree with you.
Take Capital Group Companies Inc.
Going from the last to first available reports on Qantas website, and it clearly lists them as one of the largest shareholders over those 10 years. So that one company alone disagrees with your 16 week suggestion.
And just looking at what that company does, they manage mutual funds and other investment portfolios according to their website.

There is still a few others on that list that have also remained during that time frame.

Out of interest Capital Groups % of share ownership during those years has been.
2000 = % 5.0
2009 = % 16.77
2010 = % 9.53

Also of interest is largest shareholder JP Morgan has reduced from %28.84 in 2009 to %23.61 in 2010. Now given this is a nominee holding it would be hard to tell just who it is for etc.

And Buffet might not invest directly in an Airline but he does have his hand in the Aviation Industry. He has money sunk into Flight Safety Intl and NetJets.
Either way I wasn't going to mention him on here.
Does this still make us look stupid ?
And if you didnt see after my interest comment there was a sarcastic little :rolleyes:

[maggot]

Pure gold MIC, you got another one, hook, line & sinker. Keep em coming.


Really? Very weak troll. At best.
:rolleyes:

[FOCX]

Budfox,

But were they holding those shares continuously, or were they trading, buying in and out and therefor not investing as such? If they were holding them continuously it sort of shows that they aren't very good at their job! 16 yrs is a bloody loooonng time to give a company time to prove itself. As to Buffet's ownership of Netjets etc, they're not airlines. If you're a Buffet fan you'll know he considers them to be the biggest waste of capital going.

As to 16 wks V 16 yrs, didn't it strike you that I wasn't being literal? 2009 if I'm correct QF shares went down to 1.36 or so, they buy in big and subsequently sell almost 1/2 their holding in 2010, they're not investing, that's trading, a big difference.

Qanchor,

if you are referring to me you got it wrong! I see what MIC is doing, I suggest you look at THE MANAGEMENT's post om the FH forum, you'll quickly see he pretends to be management. He did it so well after 3 yrs I started to hate his posts, which at the start I found very entertaining. MIC is nowhere near as good, not a criticism, just a fact.

[Budfox]

I did actually say Buffet doesn't invest directly in an airline.

I see your point of selling in and out and Capital Group have been doing this.
Only in past years does it seem as I referenced that they are down to %9.53 from previous year 2009.

Whether or not they have been net long or short from as far back as 2000 they have been in the top shareholders that whole time.

If they were trading there would be a lot of appendix 3's ;)

Anyway the whole point of earlier post was just to highlight the share price back to 1995 levels so all good. Who knows what some of the big funds are doing anyway :)

Big kahunas was needed to buy at $1.36 but what the heck, whens its someone elses money no probs ;)

[FOCX]

Budfox,

Further to my PM, no I didn't see your :rolleyes: at the end of the interest bit:ugh:. That's me butting my head for not reading your post properly!

[Management In Charge]

if you are referring to me you got it wrong! I see what MIC is doing, I suggest you look at THE MANAGEMENT's post om the FH forum, you'll quickly see he pretends to be management. He did it so well after 3 yrs I started to hate his posts, which at the start I found very entertaining. MIC is nowhere near as good, not a criticism, just a fact
Oh dear, I see that FOCX has now made several unsubstantiated comments about my imitating another Ppruner ? How rude and arrogant.
Let me be quite clear that I am my own individual. I am not and have not purported to either be another Ppruner nor copy or mimic another Ppruner. Furthermore I have not tried to make my comments sound like or even replicate this ‘other Pruner’ in a different forum. If my comments are not as ‘good’ as the other Pruner’s then I do not care, there is no comparison or competition on my mind, FOCX is somewhat deluded, confused or simply ‘washed up’.
Perhaps the truth is that Management in all our supreme ability and intellect are very similar in our thoughts, actions, skill and wisdom. After all, we are a special breed, gifted, and are in a class of society well above you ‘small people’. Management does not need to ‘rally the troops’ and fight the system as we are the system. We cannot be broken, outplayed, outsmarted or undermined by the likes of FOCX. You are David and we are Goliath. Your insults do us no harm, rather you strengthen our resolve to run a tight ship in which the shareholder is rewarded for their loyalty.
So I would suggest that FOCX return to flying his little cargo planes or other substandard piece of prehistoric machinery out of that dirty putrid Asian city and be silent from contributing any input into Australian matters. Furthermore, if your so-called Ppruner on ‘another forum’ is truly a Manager who also oozes wisdom, intellect and a solid understanding of running a profitable airline then I invite him to post in our debate.

The Boardroom Beckons

[Tidbinbilla]

in which the shareholder is rewarded for their loyalty.Well, if you're talking Qantas.... It's been some time since I've been rewarded for my loyalty:ugh:.

Feel free to take a break from this thread for being a troll (and to spend a little more time in your "beckoning boardroom". Goodness knows, you need it :=:}
Come back when you give me a dividend.

This is a professional pilots' network. Not an incompetent management's network.

TID

[Mustaphabeer]

Didn't David end up Slaying Goliath?

[teresa green]

I am dammed if I remember where all the pilots came from, some from USA, South Africa and New Zealand I remember, and the Australian papers were full of adds for Airline pilots, like you think you could get them out of centrelink. I think we were all in such a state of shock, we had no idea what was going on. What I do remember with terrible clarity is one of our colleagues could not cope, he already had marital problems, and dreaded the loss of his kids, loss of job was the final straw, so he topped himself. Myself and 5 other TAA pilots had to make the trip to ADL for his funeral, and had to board a aircraft we knew like our own car, that we had logged hundreds of hours up on, and listen to some yank welcome us on board and hoped we would have a good time folks and enjoy the flight. None of us dared look at the other, we were all to distressed. Jesus, don't go down our path.

[unionist1974]

tg , heartfelt words i am sure, good advice , Listen

[maggot738]

Having read all of the posts regarding the possibilty of QF employing strikebreakers, I really feel I have to put a few home truths out there. As an Ossie expact working overseas for years I am sure that QF pilots would be right there in my corner if I were on strike, especially if someone offered them a reasonable sum of money to take LWOP and fly for my airline for a while. Well, maybe not, but, now reverse the situation. If all QF pilots had been based in the furthest corners of the globe for years and someone offered them the chance to return home, how many could honestly say that they would NOT EVEN CONSIDER IT. Not too many would be my guess.
Now, where do I sign.
Maggot

[RHLMcG]

how many could honestly say that they would NOT EVEN CONSIDER IT. Not too many would be my guess.

In a nutshell, that philosophical distinction represented the fence between the two groups in 89/90.

I was on one side of the fence (I saw no option then and, were the circumstances to be similar again, I would see no option again). Those on the other side of the fence I can be polite towards but would be most unlikely to share a drink, etc.

The only people I can accept who flew over our routes are those who were in employment O/S and were directed by their employers to crew on a short contract basis. I have one such long term friend and colleague. While he thought that we were all a bit foolish at the time (and I have to agree with him), I don't think that he at all relished having to fly in the circumstances. However, I certainly wouldn't expect him or anyone else, to have sacrificed his job to make a point.

On the other hand, those who gratuitously and willingly, even enthusiastically, fed/feed on the adversity of others are true bottom feeders. We all had numerous friends and, in the case of some, family, who were of such ilk. Just a personal view, I suppose, but I wouldn't piss on such people if they were on fire in the gutter as I walked past.

I can bring to mind a couple of very highly qualified and competent non-airline pilots who were courted quite actively at the time but declined the offers. As one observed to a group in my presence later, to have accepted would have meant that "Bloggs would never have spoken to me again". By rejecting the offers, he chose to forego a significant dollar benefit at a useful stage in his working life. Such integrity puts the bleating of others ("I had to go back for the kids", etc.) in perspective for me, at least.

TG (love that username) refers to a suicide - there were a number of such people who had parallel stress sufficient to push them over the edge. The Industry and personal tragedy involved was nothing short of absolutely disgraceful.

Jesus, don't go down our path.

Absolutely the case. Those who ignore history inevitably are doomed to repeat it.

[Arnold E]

Now, where do I sign.
Maggot

Appropriate user name.:cool:

[teresa green]

Just a side note RHLMcG, Teresa Green, Ida Down, etc were all call signs on the Lancaster bombers, that flew so gallantly during the second world war. Teresa Green was my uncle's aircraft, he went to Canada to do his flying training, and flew the Lanc on many a raid, only to meet his death over Cologne aged 29, which was considered quite old for a pilot in those days. (I guess you just did not get to live that long). Which of course puts our complaints into perspective really, doesn't it.

[Angle of Attack]

Getting back to the origninal topic who cares?
I already have completed interviews for a couple of contracts overseas
and the way I see it is GAME ON!

Fight and eviscerate!

[RHLMcG]

puts our complaints into perspective really, doesn't it.

Absolutely.

I admire the VC winner but my awe is reserved for the massed bomber raids of WW2 folk. Balls of steel and way beyond my level.

Fight and eviscerate!

Quite obviously some have no intention of, and absolutely no interest in, learning from the past.

[teresa green]

Yep right mate, of course the airlines were born from this era, and I had the privilege as a very young F/O, to fly with these legends of pilots. Hard bastards, to young to have seen what they saw, but mate, could they fly. Some had been POW's, some had survived their tour of duty, but all were affected in one way or another. A privilege to have anything to do with them, even if they would and could, smack you over the head or hurl bloody manuals at you if they were incensed by your youthful stupidity. Short fuses many of them, and do you wonder. would not do with the diddums of today.

[fearcampaign]

This is not 1989!!!

There is potential for PIA( Protected!!! Industrial action)

No one will resign and this is not a pay issue. It's about Qantas aircraft not being flown by Vietnamese pilots in asia with a Qantas tail.

Very few similarities.

[Slasher]

......how many could honestly say that they would NOT
EVEN CONSIDER IT. Not too many would be my guess.

Stick me down in the "honestly say" category.

Who the hell would be crazy enough to want to go back?
Have a look at what one will look forward to by returning
to the "lucky country" (apart from an obvious lowering of
one's standard of living) -

- Totally uncontrolled political correctness
- AGW brigades
- Many extremely high and invasive taxes
- ALP and a thickheaded bogan PM
- Greenies and their commie bosses
- Listening to statements? That sound like questions?
- ABC
- CASA
- Enforced recycling (trash is trash - get the garbos to do it instead!)
- ATO
- Tall Poppy Syndrome
- ALP-voting yobbos
- A mickey mouse domestic airline system
- A soon-to-be mickey mouse int'l airline system
- Taxes (oh yeh I already mentioned that)

No way Jose. They'd have to pay me an extra 10-15 grand
tax free each month to compensate putting up with all that
bull****! :rolleyes:

[teresa green]

:ugh:Your all freckin mad, you don't know what it is like. No it is not 89 it is 2011, and it hurts just as much. You might win, you might not, you are not just fighting the company, you are fighting the govt. you are fighting the people, ( believe me you will be seen the same as us, overpaid bus drivers) PLEASE think about this, as for Vietnamese pilots, try USA, South Africans, even our cousins the Kiwi's and don't lets forget the french, no problems there on the A380. You poor bastards.

[OBNO]

TG - And what would you advise Qf pilots do?

[fl610]

Wot Slasher and TG said. :( :{

[Capt Kremin]

Get a grip TG.

In 89 the AFAP was attempting to go outside the Accord. That was the reason the Govt came down like a ton of bricks. AIPA is being very careful to stay within the laws of the land.... hence the P in PIA. The Govt will only get involved if the Minister decides to intervene, and that will be that.

In 89 the entire Australian domestic network was shut down, that cannot happen now.

In 89 the AFAP was persuing a 29% pay rise. AIPA is going for less than inflation.

QF Long haul accounts for 18% of Australian traffic. The punters have plenty of options if they thing they will be inconvenienced.

For a text-book example of how to run PIA, look to the ALAEA. Believe me, they are talking to AIPA.

89 just showed us how NOT to do it.

Get a grip and stop spreading hysteria.

[amos2]

I've always struggled with the views and principles of TG.
He's always been opposed to scabs and supports those who didn't, yet he chose to fly for many years as an F/O to those he says he opposed?
Due to the needs of his family, he has said in years past.
One day perhaps I will understand that!?

[BaronB]

The Govt will only get involved if the Minister decides to intervene, and that will be that.



There are other ways the govt can get involved. Think about it. Julia ain't exactly winning the popularity stakes at the moment. Any money on her 'Swanning' in to fix the problem?

[teresa green]

:ugh::ugh:What a load of crock Amos. I left Oz and flew OS for four years, I came back because my wife developed a blood disorder that could lead to Leukemia, and naturally with four kids under 10 we needed family support and assistance. I returned OS on my own and continued to fly, and finally got into QF as a S/O. never a F/O. And they I stayed. I have never scabbed, it was seven years after the dispute before I flew back here. As for my hysteria, you go for it mate, if you think it is going to get you anywhere, perhaps you lot will be lucky, perhaps not, but history shows you are pushing it uphill. Does not matter if its 89 or 2011 you still bleed the same, most have a mortgage, most have kids at school, most have financial commitments, and you have to weigh that up. There is no answer to where QF is going, it is now the way of the world, and if you blokes think you can stop it, well good luck. But if you think QF is going to sit on its arse whilst you blokes, start working to rule, ringing in sick, or what ever you plan to do, they are not. They will have the journos painting you as a bunch of sky gods, over paid bus drivers, they have no friggin idea what is involved, nor care. Then you will have the govt, with Gillard and that Moron Swan having a go at you. If you were a bunch of wharfies then that is ok, but a bunch of Airline Pilots, they are considered elitists capitalists, tall poppies to be ridiculed and brought down. A perfect sitting duck for a Labor Party govt. No skin off my nose if you win or lose, no skin off my nose if you lose your job or not, but it sure is sh%thouse if you do. Good luck whichever way you go.

[Angle of Attack]

No skin off my nose if you win or lose, no skin off my nose if you lose your job or not, but it sure is sh%thouse if you do. Good luck whichever way you go.

Sounds like the skin is already off your nose!

I dont care I have other jobs lined up so GAME ON!

[RAD_ALT_ALIVE]

How's this for a scenario;

- Strike goes ahead (if I'm not mistaken - on the basis of QF management refusing to acknowledge guarantee of job security).

- QF group immediately approves contingency plans to train as many Airbus-qualified pilots onto the QF group widebody aircraft.

- JQ pilots are the most Airbus-qualified pilots in the group (by Airbus hours flown).

- QF A330 management and JQ widebody management/check pilots immediately commence CCQ on A380.

- The most experienced JQ narrowbody pilots immediately commence CCQ onto the A330.

- Within weeks, all QF Airbus widebody aircraft are up and flying again.

- QF group downside is that the JQ network is adversely affected (but since - as has been accepted by most on this forum - it is low yield, it's considered acceptable collateral damage).

- QF-Group management instigate fleet retirement of entire B767 and older B744. Suitable (domestic) replacements available with (hastily) re-configured JQ A321 and A320.

- Within a relatively short time, most high-yield domestic ops resumed to near pre-strike levels.

- QF management then read the riot act to all pilots still on strike; return on JQ-type conditions, or dont return at all. As PIA in effect, QF wind up the operational entitiy/entities of QF longhaul, and start shelf company that employs pilots to crew QF longhaul.

I dont know if any or all of the above can be done - but I bet that QF management will move mountains to make something like it possible. Ever since JQ was started, the industrial writing for longhaul (and to a lesser extent, shorthaul) has been on the wall! And now that the non-QF low-cost element of Oz aviation has been reduced to just Tiger (at this point in time, no great threat), the full-service, high-yield element has to be protected at ALL costs.

You guys are playing into managements hands by going down this path: by demanding 'job security' you have given them the issue they wanted to send the pilots down the PIA road. and as shorthaul will still be merrily plying the skies, what message will this be sending the public? What harmony will this encourage among all pilots employed by QF (considering that 'old' longhaulers are now on the shorthaul award and vice versa)?

And all for such a tenuous concept as 'job security'! You will NEVER win this one, because in the modern aviation world, it doesn't exist. And there-in lies the crux of the whole schebang - this is old-world thinking and acting when the modern one has moved so very far.

I think you're mad to be undertaking this action, but I know that my two bobs-worth won't count for a cracker.

I was once told by a grey-haired, grizzled old-timer, "I can't believe you couldn't see this happening! It was so obvious to us". He was referring to the Ansett collapse.

I hope to God that I never smugly, arrogantly, and so very insensitively, find myself in the position where I have to say the same to friends at longhaul.

Think carefully.

Good luck to every individual in making the decision you ultimately make.

[Beer Baron]

There are so many holes in the scenario posted above that I don't know where to start.

All I will say is; if you never stand up and fight for what you want/need/deserve then you are never going to get it.

Doing nothing and trying to avoid making waves at this juncture in aviation in Australia will achieve NOTHING!

[fearcampaign]

RadAltAlive- Here is a little scenario for you. Many airlines around the world have a scope clause. That means they stay relevant because it is in a contract and you can't get f%$#%^ over.

If you think that without a scope clause suddenly pilots will keep their jobs and promotions will continue to appear, then i believe you are dreaming.

Efficiencies will be given/negotiated but you don't give them away for nothing, unless you are an idiot.The negotiators are not naive to the pressures facing Qantas. They realise pilots need to offer efficiencies.Qantas pilots need to be brought along for the ride however.

A scope clause was offered in EBA8. So why not now? I'll tell you why, because they are planning to shut out mainline pilots from any future jobs/growth.
If you thought Jetstar was a threat to Qantas flying then watch what happens when Qantas Asia starts expanding with no Qantas pilots at the helm. Or jetconnect get long range aircraft and take senior flying to the USA.

If pilots do not act now they won't have a job/future career anyway. It's not rocket science.
If the company had any genuine intention to include the pilots in future growth they would spell out their plans and say this is what price we need from you in order to get scope. Newsflash! They are not interested!

Look at how efficient Jetstar pilots are compared to Southwest e.t.c and they are getting undercut by non EBA pilots in both Australia and Singapore. A big F%$#% you to the wonder workforce.
Non EBA 200 hour cadet pilots on $35,000 a year with a $200,000 debt!!!! And you are questioning the need for scope?
Qantas have a proven track record. No matter what you do, we will undercut you and offshore pilot jobs. A scope clause would stop this.

1. AIPA played nice guy after September 11 with a pay freeze.100% appropriate.
The reward, no consultation or even a chance to bid for the flying at a rate required by the company at the start up of Jetstar. Result we lost growth and promotions for junior pilots.Leave was assigned in QF when there was a pilot shortage at JQ

2.Qantas told pilots it would only fly JQ domestically with 23 aircraft and not take a Qantas route. Lie number two. Have you flown to the Gold Coast lately on Qantas Rad Alt?

3.Qantas told crews there would be no Jetstar International. Lie number 3. Jetstar did fly internationally and took Qantas routes/growth.

4.Started Jetconnect. Qantas painted 737's and flew them without 737 short haul pilots. No consultation on bidding for the flying.

5.Stated in a letter from the CEO that all Qantas F/O's and S/O's would have a promotion in 5 years. In the recent reduction in numbers many F/O's have accepted demotions to S/O.

6.Asked pilots/AIPA for 8 million in savings or else pilots would be sacked. Many pilots took half pay lines and within months Dixon was paid $12,000,000 for six months work. SHAREHOLDERS voted overwhelmingly against the pay deal but were ignored by the board as it was non binding.

7.Started to employ pilots in Singapore and Australia on non Jetstar Australia EBA terms and conditions

8.The chief pilot states that any scope clause will lead to sackings at Cobham whilst ignoring his own pilots

No pilot wants to have to take drastic action. Qantas have lost the ear of what was their most supportive long term workforce. Backed into a corner you have to fight to survive. It's put up or shut up time.

The next chapter can read we negotiated/fought for a future career in Qantas or we did nothing and watched our careers evaporate.
90 years of safety and experience slowly left to die via reduction in numbers. I believe we owe it to the Qantas pilots of the future just as those fought hard in 66 to give us what we have today. This is not about pay but about the future of Qantas Pilots and the profession.

There are risks and costs to action. But they are far less than the long range risks of comfortable inaction.
John F. Kennedy

[The Professor]

"AIPA is going for less than inflation."

Dont get fooled into thinking that only one side of this confrontation is "going for" something.

QF are looking at re inventing the entire employment practice for pilots.

Do you really want to give them the opportunity?

[OBNO]

Teresa - You keep telling Qantas pilots what they shouldn't do, but you can't offer any advice on what they should do to try and protect flying on future Qantas aircraft such as B787. Lets face that's what this is all about - Are Qantas pilots going to get to fly B787 in Qantas livery?

[ANCDU]

Your Longhaul bretherin will be taking the pain, finacially and mentally, to secure ALL futures in QF mainline.

Angryrat, take a breath, the shorthaul pilots in Qantas have been taking the pain for the last two years, with the loss of flying to J*,jetconnect and with putting surplus pilots on the 737the divisor has fallen by as much as 20-30%, and as the pay is basically purely based on this its a 20-30% drop in pay. Remember the min pay divisor for the 737 is only around 53 hours, not the 80 longhaul pilots enjoy. Shorthaul will be doing exactly the same as you in a years time, so start focusing on the real problem, not your fellow pilots.

We want to make sure that the shorthaul operations isn't the last part of qantas to be crewed by australian pilots!

[ejectx3]

As far as paying their staff peanuts, or offshoring all jobs to foreigners, If qantas can get away with it, they will do it.

It is up to the staff now to say enough is enough.

[teresa green]

How can I tell QF pilots what to do mate. How do you know which way QF is going to jump. The way I see it you blokes are caught between a rock and a hard place. Doomed if you do, and doomed if you dont. The world of aviation has changed, as you well know, you are dealing with a company who has eyes only for the shareholder, you are nothing more now than a staff number, and if I were a young pilot looking for a career now, I would suggest to them they look for a airline that is managed well, with a good CEO, and the only airline in Australia at the moment with that is Virgin. TE is a perfect example of a good airline, happy staff, well run, progressive, so it can be achieved. QF desperately needs a good boss, Borgetti should never been allowed to go, and the QF board should be shafted for that. QF has basically been destroyed by Dixon and now Joyce, and so mate, my advice is to look after nbr one, thats all you can do, and hope that QF finds it way back onto straight and level at some stage.

[Tempo]

my advice is to look after nbr one, thats all you can do, and hope that QF finds it way back onto straight and level at some stage.

The only way of looking after 'nbr one' is by uniting TOGETHER!

Oh guys and btw....this is NOT a LH vs. SH and who is taking the pain more....this is about all of OUR jobs in this airline. We have got to stick together and support each other.

[RHLMcG]

What a great pity that the then QF people chose NOT to support the AFAP people in 89/90. That probably was the only chance to stop/slow the Industrial rot for the airlines.

Guess it's a case now of reap what you sow ?

[The Professor]

".....do to try and protect flying on future Qantas aircraft such as B787. Lets face that's what this is all about - Are Qantas pilots going to get to fly B787 in Qantas livery?"

QF pilots have no legal entitlement to fly the 787 or even any current fleet type. If QF chose to operate the 787 under a different banner with contract crew then QF pilots have no avenue of complaint.

[regitaekilthgiwt]

As said previously RAD ALT ALIVE so many holes in your argument.

Your first point.

Strike goes ahead

We are not going on strike, at least not until the very end and even then they will be stop work meetings. What will happen is work to rule, not extending etc. We will still be in the planes and flying/available to fly, we will just not be going the extra mile. I would suggest similar to the engineers not doing overtime last dispute, this will be enough to cost management a lot of $$$. Hopefully not at the disruption of too many customers, unfortunately though they are like civilians in a war (innocent casualties)-not acceptable in my opinion-but management can stop this war whenever they choose. After that there are other avenues. To suggest that all 1700 pilots are going to walk off the job so QF can lock everyone out and try on your scenario, well that would be stupid.

Stay the cause guys (and girls!), support AIPA. With unity we can and will see sanity prevail. And if somehow it doesn't I guess Emirates, Etihad and Qatar will have sorted out their short term tech crew needs. :E

[Beer Baron]

Angryrat and ANCDU: there is no argument between QF long haul and short haul, RAD ALT ALIVE who made the initial comment works for Jetstar (I'm fairly sure) not short haul. Let's focus our anger on the company.

[Nuthinondaclock]

QF pilots have no legal entitlement to fly the 787 or even any current fleet type

In reference to the current fleet type in it's current operation....... Yeah, we do. Ignorant post. Not going to bother pointing out the aspects of Australian employment law that require this. That's why QF want to offshore the work.

[teresa green]

Tempo, in a ideal world, all would unite, but human nature being what it is, there are those who won't. Be prepared for that. Saying looking after nbr 1, I mean to have a plan, plan for the possibility of escalation, and and a longer time out of the flight deck. Sure up your finances, check out the possibility of some part time work, (if you have some tradie mates, ask what they have, you will lose 5kgs and get paid for it) And you will really appreciate that seat on the flight deck when you return. Our problem was we did not have a plan, because we did not expect what happened, nor can you. Chances are the whole thing will turn into froth and bubble, with both sides giving a bit, and all returning to normal with neither side happy and it will continue to bubble on, that is probably the outcome. I wish it had been ours.

[BaronB]

To suggest that all 1700 pilots are going to walk off the job so QF can lock everyone out and try on your scenario, well that would be stupid.


Be careful here - just because we don't 'walk out' doesn't mean they can't (or won't) try on something crazy.

[RAD_ALT_ALIVE]

For what it's worth, I work for neither Jetstar, nor shorthaul (though what relevance my employer has to my post is a bit hard for me to see).

And it's quite obvious that my post has been taken out of context by at least one contributor; to say I've started a fear campaign is ridiculous. For the vast majority of the pilots concerned with this dispute to not have taken the time to think about the possible negative consequences of pursuing this course of action would be unwise to say the least.

A military campaign was never started that didn't at least consider the worst-case scenario. An industrial campaign should be no different.

But AIPA (as is their right) only give one side and one list of outcomes. The company (as is their right) give the opposite viewpoint. Why not ask AIPA what their think-tank has determined to be the 'worst-case' outcome? We know what the 'best-case' is - it's be nice to benefit from the knowledge of the other. Do the same with your Chief Pilot.

Let me spell it out - I am not employed by QF or JQ. I left my employ in the past because I realised that we (management and I) didn't see eye-to-eye on career path, employment satisfaction, respect and job security.

I could well have jumped up and down and got behind the union band-wagon. But I couldn't be bothered wasting my time. There's a whole aviation world out there - if you don't like where you're at, then start applying for positions (if you look at Parc's website, there are many great contracts, including ozzie basings available). If you do like where you're at, then make the decision to stay and work within the boundaries of the ever-changing workplace rules that management implement. But if you do fall in behind AIPA, then be very clear that one outcome is great success, but the other outcome is not worth contemplating. 1966 was not only a different time, it may as well have been a different planet as far as industrial relations laws, industrial landscape and issue-similarity are concerned. Make no mistake: (from my observations) QF management want an end to the longhaul award. From their perspective, it is tedious to deal with, and lacks efficiencies and productivity.

I have quite a few QF mates who I care alot about. I am also concerned for the wellbeing of the rest who I don't know. That is why I posted what I did; to give an objective slant on the basis of the obvious changes that have been made since 2004 within The Group. And what my personal opinion is, of what management's plans/contingencies are in the event that longhaul take PIA.

Still and all - it's clearly wasted on those who don't want to see any alternatives.

As I said - good luck to all.

[The Professor]

Nothingondaclock,

"That's why QF want to offshore the work."

You should do a little more research my friend. QF want to offshore crew because thats how they will make a killing on labor cost savings.

They do not need to in order to operate several crew contracts on one paint scheme.

Watch how quickly they will repaint Jetstar aircraft with an orange door sticker.

[Beer Baron]

RAD ALT ALIVE, you seem to believe that doing nothing will improve the situation. 2 years ago you stated:
Has it occurred to you that the contract on offer now, may not be the one you're on in the long term? The contract that was in place at JQ when I joined was nothing to rave about. But a few short years later, although still not perfect, it's alot better than it was.

Those who can see past their bulging hip pockets may well see a future where negotiation and compromise result in a improvements to pay and conditions.

Yet this was a false utopia. Things at JQ got worse, much worse recently. Even to the point where you yourself walked away. Yet you still don't feel the need to fight for what is right. Sure you voted with your feet, and good on you for that. However 1700 long haul Qantas pilots can not just up and leave, so we must stand together and fight.
The attitude you display in comments like:
I could well have jumped up and down and got behind the union band-wagon. But I couldn't be bothered wasting my time.
will achieve nothing for the long term health of our profession in Australia.

I do not mean to sound rude and I take your point on being cognisant of the potential pitfalls in the AIPA strategy but I believe that at some point we must stand up for what we believe in.

[Nuthinondaclock]

Just not worth the time..............

[AnQrKa]

Semantics maybe but you guys should be armed with as much info as possible before heading into battle. Prof is correct, your jets can easily be set up to be flown by anyone the company choses.

You are replaceable at very short notice. Tread carefully.

[HF3000]

Professor: wrong
AnQrKa: wrong

It's a lot more complicated than that.

Why have JQ just suspended their plans to do exactly that?

Not saying it can never happen, just saying it isn't as simple as that.

It's a lot easier to offshore it. That's why they are planning to offshore it. Get it?

[AnQrKa]

"Not saying it can never happen" . . . . therefore in the heat of battle . . it can.

No one is suggesting that it would not be "complicated".

As 89 demonstrated, ANYTHING can happen when the state and the coporatocracy work together.

[HF3000]

AnQrKa, yes, it CAN happen, that was proven in '89.

However, it probably would NOT have happened in '89 if the pilots didn't resign. Fatal error. Of course you can be replaced if you resign.

In the heat of battle, another fatal error could allow it to happen again. I don't disagree with that.

I was responding to your comments and the professor's implying that QF could just flick a switch and have the jets flown by a labour hire company and sack it's mainline pilots. They can't. Fair Work Act refers.

Look what just happened in JQ - a few emails and a quick application to the courts by the unions, and management suddenly realised they won't get away with it that easily. They are now probably spending many more millions on legal advice as we speak looking for more loopholes to exploit.

Qantas DO want to outsource all our labour to as many different labour-hire shell companies as they can - and have us compete with each other to the very bottom of the pit. They have made that quite clear.

It's our job to stop them - no-one else will. We're quite aware there are risks involved with PIA - many and varied risks. But we will manage those risks in a careful manner. So while we work, it would help if you didn't sit on the other side of the world and fire shots like that - especially inaccurate ones.

[3 Holer]

However, it probably would NOT have happened in '89 if the pilots didn't resign. Fatal error. Of course you can be replaced if you resign.


That was the ambush. By issuing writs, the Company forced pilots to resign to protect superannuation, homes etc,.

QF pilots a awake up to this and anyway,replacement pilots will not be easy to get now as the tourist season is approaching in the northern hemisphere.

[Nuthinondaclock]

The point I was trying to make was specifically referenced to The Professor's statement that we do not even own our current flying. He implied that QF could get someone else to do it now if they wanted to. That isn't the case. We own it in as much as QF can't just sack us and make us do the same job on lesser terms. He suggests they can just set up a different contract and bring in others, but this doesn't get rid of us so doesn't help their cost base. The tactics they use in setting up different AOC's, offshoring to Jetconnect, Jetstar's SIN operation etc are workarounds to avoid Australian employment laws and transfer of business rules. They might achive the same result in the end but they wouldn't being taking this approach if it wasn't necessary.

3 Holer; It was an ambush and hence why we would only be taking Protected Industrial Action (It's still a long way from that and I hope we don't actually have to take that path, but if deemed necessary.....)

HF3000; Spot on. :ok:

[fl610]

Don't presume that they will keep the same standards that currently apply to licence renewals etc. The bar will be lowered as far as deemed necessary. :suspect:

[RHLMcG]

Reality check needed here, guys.

89/90 the Government heavied CASA to bend any rule which needed to be bent to make the thing work. A lot of this is a matter of public record and you should be able to find numerous examples in the Dunnunda archives.

If necessary, the current rules will be put on hold - they had a few close shaves in 89/90 but got away with it. That will be the catalyst for doing similar things, if necessary, this time around.

We were stupid - no doubt about that - why do you guys want to repeat our stupidity ? You're unlikely to enjoy the gameplay any more than we did.

[Tankengine]

We are not repeating your stupidity.

[RHLMcG]

I really do hope that such proves to be the case when the history is written.

[dirtysidedown]

One thing that I have not seen mentioned is the hundreds, maybe thousands of Australian Pilots currently working and residing overseas. And calling them replacement pilots, mmm, there is nothing to stop them being employed permanently and the current group being made redundant.

I know of a few in Emirates who are salivating at the thought of returning to Aus to see out their last few years in the comfort of well, Australia.

Every aircraft in the QF fleet could easily be crewed by Aussies, with Aussie licences living overseas. This is a very realistic scenario, they are aussies and are entitled to work for australian airlines. They all have the right to reside. They all have aussie licences, so no rule changes are required to lower standards.

Unlike 89, there is now a massive Aussie labor base available outside the country, Trained to the same standards, if not higher standards.

As most QF pilots know, they are extremely well paid by comparison to other airlines. The average Aussie pilot residing in the sandpit is on far less that the average QF pilot.

careful guys!

[Capt Kremin]

DSD, explain to me, under the FWA laws how that could be achieved?

[dirtysidedown]

You will have to explain to me where in FWA law a pilot cannot be made redundant.

Were you even born in 89 Kremin?

[Capt Kremin]

Well you would have to explain to me where FWA allows pilots to be made redundant and then others re-hired into the same jobs on less terms and conditions?

[dirtysidedown]

You simply change the job description. It's that simple.

[Capt Kremin]

I know more about the rules than you think.

QF pilots have a clause in their EBA which requires 6 months notice of redundancy. Since QF cannot make pilots redundant quickly then any attempt to recruit their replacements would be highly visible, and would result in a very public court case, which QF would lose under the FWA laws. You cannot make somebody redundant whilst actively recruiting their replacement.

You cannot be sacked whilst engaging in PIA, it is against the law.

Furthermore, making 1700 LH pilots redundant at once would cost QF hundreds of millions of dollars. The current redundancy provision would also mean that senior LH pilots, if made redundant out of LH, could displace more junior pilots on the SH award, consequently making them redundant. The cascading effect would shut down QF for months, destroying the share price and probably landing the Directors in a class action taken against them by the shareholders.

Have I read the rules son?

[h.o.t.a.s.]

SMACK!!!:D

[dirtysidedown]

Thankyou for your exhaustive self inflating diatribe. You may know your EBA but you obviously don't know the rules. A couple of hundred million, in the scheme of things.....really?

I suppose you have to weigh up the costs. Perhaps a bankrupt Qantas is the desired outcome.

Jetstar is the viable airline, QF is a dinosaur that is not competitive on the world market. The Australian public has been systematically turned against QF by the media, which has been manipulated by management.

It is sometimes difficult to be objective Kremin when people like you are so emotionally involved. The senior management are not emotionally involved.

That is why they will win, you can't beat the boss. We lost before, and we will come out of this worse than now.

Wake up and see the reality of the situation.

Remember the boss writes the rules, and as before the australian public whose businesses and lives are to be disrupted by a bunch if elitists will once again turn on us.

Either way, we lose.

Sad but true, your obvious youth and passion is obvious, just don't take it personally when you lose.

[noip]

hmmm speaking of the share price ...

$2.02 .. down 7c on the day.


N

[Capt Kremin]

Explain which rules are you referring to?

[What The]

Dirtysidedown (nice user name) you deleted your post.....

And that, boys and girls, is what happens when computers are placed in prisons.

:D

[dirtysidedown]

I didnt delete mate, the censors did.

Dont you know that, you cant spread rumors on a rumor network.