Letter to Geoffrey Thomas (Aviation expert)

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Sent today -

G’day Mr Geoffrey Thomas (Aviation expert),

I’ve had a few days now to breathe after negotiation meetings and a bit of press. I said I would give you a full rundown on our discussions so you are in a position to report both sides of the story. It was our members who rang us after your words on Sunrise the other day, they were angry with what you said, as they were after reading some of your comments and views from earlier Sunrise appearances. I didn’t see the program but the perception our members get is that your opinion of LAMEs is that they are overpaid tradesman and not professional Engineers. You have also on a number of occasions supported Qantas comments about overseas facilities being as good as those in Australia. It appears from what we have heard that you are running directly from a Qantas PR running sheet and it is disappointing that you have not contacted me prior to your public comments. When I speak to journalists I always expect them to hear the other side of the story and that is usually the case.

Firstly regarding Licenced Aircraft Engineers, particularly at Qantas. Most have completed year 12 and then commence a 4 year apprenticeship as most tradespeople do. For other trades, that is the end of the formal process that gives them their trade qualification. Not so for a LAME. At the end of our apprenticeship, we are then Unlicensed Aircraft Engineers. I takes many years of post-trade study to acquire an initial Licence. There are a series of exams known as basics. In my case (avionics) there are 25 of these exams that are extremely difficult to pass and on my journey I failed a number and had to re-sit them. Beyond that you have to complete specific training on an aircraft you seek to be licenced on, this is a classroom course full time of approximately 3 months, hours of study each night and another 12 exams. Once completed you have to demonstrate to CASA that you have carried out tasks to the value of over 1000 hours on that aircraft, this work that must be documented takes years. In total, to become licenced on 4 aircraft I have been required to pass over 120 exams. LAMEs study their whole lives to remain current, much of it in their own time to keep you safe in the air. I would challenge you to find any profession, be it Doctor, Barrister, Playwright or Rocket Scientist who is required to pass as many exams as us to attain their qualification.

In return, we get paid a reasonable wage and so we should. Our remuneration is certainly not excessive. Our wages start at $63,440 when we have one licence. The absolute maximum is $113,516 for a person licenced on a multitude of aircraft with many years (usually over 20 with Qantas) experience. Out of over 1600 LAMEs at Qantas, only 45 are on that top level. The vast majority fit well below 100k and to be considered an overpaid tradesman at these levels is an insult when you consider our training and responsibility. Anything we earn above those amounts is because we work extra hours and extensive shiftwork. 40% of our members will not spend Christmas with their families. Nearly all work nights and weekends which makes it practically impossible to have a partner who works which means most of us are one income families. Please do not attack our wages again.

Overseas facilities. Well I could talk forever about these and can support everything I say with documents that are known to Qantas and should be made public. We don’t always do that though because we want issues addressed in house. When the Qantas management team and people like you go on about the top class overseas facilities we are forced to go public because we know it is simply not true. Heavy Maintenance of the tin cans that carry people at 40,000 ft is a serious matter and there is no room for errors by the people entrusted with those functions. Nearly all fatal accidents caused by maintenance error emanate from a small mistake. They all could have been prevented. Small mistakes happen every day in our industry and at home, we seek to learn from those mistakes so they don’t reoccur. Over many years, our Australian experience has seen these mistakes reduce to a point where they are practically eliminated. This is in many ways due to the attitude of Aussies with regard to authority. We have always had the ability to stand up to our superiors and say – hey mate, I think something is wrong here, we need to look into it a bit further. The yes Sir, no Sir approach adopted elsewhere is not conducive to a culture of learning and prevention of maintenance error. Qantas are trying to change the culture at home so we can become more like the efficient operations overseas and it will be a sad day if they achieve that objective. These changes are often driven by managers with little or no LAME experience and undertaken with one eye on the operation and another on the bonus they put at jeopardy if they don’t achieve their performance targets.

What price do you put on efficiency? I’d like just to explain how cheap these overseas facilities are. In December last year we were approached by Qantas management to rush through a new wage deal for Forstaff employees at Avalon in Victoria. They were told a new deal was crucial to establish a stable industrial environment so they could press for a reconfiguration program on Qantas 747 aircraft. The members ultimately accepted the deal and the contact was awarded to the facility. During the process it was explained that the contenders were Avalon and HAEKO in Hong Kong. The project was worth $200 million bucks and the Hong Kong bid had come in $5 million cheaper. That of course is 2.5%, peanuts in the scheme of things. To consider using these facilities for such small gain is a farce in my view and I will now go to some reasons why. Before I do I’d like to describe the makeup of Australian facilities for Heavy Maintenance. We do things better because we have a higher ratio of Licenced Engineers per workgroup. Melbourne sits around 60% LAME, Brisbane and Avalon around 40%. Qantas have a target of 30% in Australian facilities.

Hong Kong – I don’t have exact figures on LAME ratios but have been advised that they are about 1 in 10 or 10%. The facility up there have made serious errors on Qantas planes in the past few years. Corrosion is now being uncovered on two Qantas 747-400 aircraft that had been up there for D checks in 2009. The corrosion would have been evident back then and was missed, made worse by incorrect installation of fittings and sealants in the galley areas. We are now fixing that problem (the 5% savings of course are being borne by the Aussie facility). A couple of years ago they had mounted 3 out of 4 engines incorrectly on one 747 with load bearing countersunk washers installed upside down. We tried to address that issue in house and wanted it reported formally to CASA because we were concerned that other engines installed in the facility could be flying on live aircraft around the globe. Qantas spent the next six months arguing with us as to whether they were required to report the issue or not. No formal report was ever submitted. The last 747-300 maintained up there had an issue with the flaps, the facility were unable to rig them and the aircraft flew home on a concession where, you guessed it, the Aussies rigged them correctly.

Singapore – Another regular destination for Qantas jets with a ratio of 1 licenced Engineer per 12 or 8.3%. I’m sure you have seen what they do up there with household staplers, that’s how they repair broken wires. Not just on one plane but a number that had been through there. What you may not be aware of is the internal Qantas reports we have on the facility. In the Qantas Quality Assurance words –

“This supplier must demonstrate a quality improvement in at least the above mentioned areas before Qantas can have confidence that Qantas and CASA requirements are
being met. Qantas management must consider whether the risks of continued usage of this supplier are acceptable to Qantas and with close scrutiny, if quality improvement will be
demonstrated with future checks.”

The report contains details about an Engineer who carried out 52 hours’ worth of critical safety inspections on one rostered shift and others who had certified for flight control operational checks at a time when the aircraft was not supplied with the hydraulic or electric power to carry out the said check. This practice is known in our industry as pencil whipping. It’s when you sign to say you have carried out an inspection when you haven’t actually done it. The report is comprehensive and has many such instances. Qantas still send aircraft to Singapore, maybe they are saving 5% in doing so, it may be more but I sure as hell know they are not getting what they are paying for.

Malaysia – Some 737’s have been sent there as overflow work. Without too much detail it was in 2008 that an aircraft returned from a C check with over 90 active defects. In Australia, we are embarrassed if an aircraft comes out of heavy with one. The next check it was decided that some Aussies would go up there as inspectors. They recorded over 500 maintenance errors on a list and handed it to the management team, the list was later found in the bin. The list of errors now sits in our office as a reminder of how proud we are of our work in Australia and why we should get upset when reporters support the notion of overseas facilities being “top notch”.

Lufthansa Technik Manilla – A330’s were maintained there but they are back home now. Whilst in the facility it was noted that 2 Licenced Engineers were certifying for a workforce of 44, that is 1 to 22 or 4.5%. As you can imagine, it was absolutely impossible for them to check all of the AME work. This leads to a situation where mistakes occur. In the equipment compartments resides a number of emergency oxygen bottles. When they are fitted we are required to open the bottle and fit a special locking wire so the bottle doesn’t work its way closed. In Manilla, the wire was fitted with the bottle closed in a way that it would have prevented the tap opening if vibrations allowed it to. That bottle was the emergency bottle for the pilots. If that aircraft had suffered a rapid decompression, the Tech Crew would have reached for their masks, found no breathable oxygen and at 30, 000 ft would have been unconscious in less than 60 seconds. It’s little things that make our industry safe or unsafe.

Lufthansa Technik Frankfurt - We have no reports of quality deficiencies there but would like to respond to press comments you have supported about critical mass of aircraft being required before the ability to carry out heavy maintenance is viable. They are currently undertaking the first round of A380 C checks. Qantas has said that it does and will not have enough A380’s in their fleet to justify HM on this aircraft type. Qantas will ultimately have 20 A380’s. Lufthansa on the other hand have 8 in service and 7 on order. Please do not support Qantas statements about aircraft numbers to justify maintenance facilities knowing that Lufthansa can do it with less planes than Qantas.

Engine Maintenance – Now all fully outsourced, mostly overseas. The 747-400 RB 211’s have been failing at an ever increasing rate. Most of the failures have been sourced to one factor and part of the engine. There is a modification to prevent this but because of the closure of the Sydney Engine line where this work would have been done, Qantas can’t immediately carry out the modification. They continue to fly today, awaiting their repairs and unable to fit them in to the overseas facilities that can do them because the lines are full and you have to book in advance. Another few bucks saved, millions wasted through engine failures and many lives put at risk. Is this a safety issue? You bet it is. Please do not mimic Qantas when they comment on in flight failures of components by saying “this was not a safety issue”. In our view, every failure degrades safety. In the Qantas view, its only safety related if someone is injured or worse.

Component Maintenance – The Australian workshops are a shell of their former being. Again mostly outsourced overseas. Engine and Component Maintenance are not the domain of our members however we are concerned about fitting faulty parts because it increases failures and makes our work look substandard. Qantas claim that only 7% of maintenance is carried out overseas. This figure is distorted, they are only referring to 7% of some maintenance. In a whole with Engine, Component and some heavy maintenance overseas we estimate the real figure of maintenance carried out offshore in man hours closer to 50%.

Qantas LAMEs are proud of what they do and want nothing more than the airline to succeed. The main concern is that the foundations that made Qantas the safest airline in the world are being torn down piece by piece and for the sake of small savings that are making the operation less efficient. When we raise issues publically it is not an Industrial tactic, scaremongering or game, it is invariably because the airline is unwilling to address the issues in-house. The Accountants and Mathematicians running the airline do not understand this. Not one member of the Qantas board have operational airline experience and it is clear that they are making uneducated decisions that will ultimately lead to the demise of an Australian icon. Now off to our claims.

The Job Security section of our claim list is the most important and split 6 ways. They all tie together and relate to job security in more than one way. Everyone understands that security of employment or the functions that make it up give us surety. Security is also achieved by knowing that the airline is free from the maintenance issues that have plagued it in recent years and ultimately led to the demise of Ansett. A safe Qantas protects our reputation and jobs.

· A380 and 787 maintenance ability in Australia – These aircraft are here or on the way. We need the facilities, training and tooling to carry out this work. The way things look at the moment, the airline is not preparing as they did for the 767, 747 and other aircraft well before they arrived.

· In Flight Entertainment Servicing – This is a large chunk of Avionics work. Qantas had outsourced this function to a two bit operator called IASA a number of years ago. That operator has failed to pay many of the entitlements due to it’s employees, predominantly super. They went bankrupt 2 weeks ago leaving Qantas high and dry with no servicing of this equipment and the IASA employees unemployed and owed thousands. Qantas LAMEs have stepped up to the plate and filled the void, the airline are shopping around for another third party contractor to do the work. If Qantas have a hernia every time we talk of Protected Industrial Action, why do they allow themselves to be left high and dry by a contractor with no notice who could go broke at anytime.

· Small ports to be manned – Some ports such as Karratha have upwards of 40 flight now per week. We think it crucial that when services meet a certain level that LAMEs should be there to check the aircraft.

· Cat A licences – CASA are aligning with a new licencing system that allows a person to attain a part licence. It may restrict them to work on brakes and wheels, lighting systems or pre-flight inspections. We are concerned that use of these licences will end the days of a person being fully trained on all systems on the aircraft. It looks to us like a dead end career and we do not want this new licence type used by Qantas. The A licence system is currently falling apart in Europe.

· Existing job function retention – We are seeking to hold all the current functions we do.

· Contractors to be paid no less than as if they were employed under the Qantas Agreement – Qantas accountants have worked out that you can bypass employment contracts and agreements by opening shelf companies ie. Jet connect, to employ people on lesser rates. It is a sham and we don’t want it to happen. It is also a safety issue. If they offer LAMEs jobs through third party contractors at $50k per year, they won’t find many people. These companies will be understaffed and undue pressure will be placed on the employees there to meet contract requirements. Corners will be cut.

Much has been said about LAME and pilot wage claims in the press. I’d ask that you not mimic the Qantas spokesmodel as she rolls out her fabricated figures. They are not reflective of the claims made by our members and do not incorporate considerations such as the savings we are offering and outstanding commitments. Our claim has always been for a two year agreement, not three as they keep stating. Of course if you want to assist Qantas by spreading false propaganda, please just extend the Agreement period to any length you want. If our 3% wage claim was viewed over a 30 year period, yes it is a 90% wage claim. Our claims are –

· 3% increase pa on wages and allowances over 2 years

· More rapid progression through our graded system. To counter this we have offered that all future training be carried with no wage increase on completion of training. Currently we are paid a minimum of $5000 pa annum for each new licence we acquire. We are prepared to forgo that in order to stimulate training in this country. The two claims when combined almost neutralise each other adding .14% pa extra.

· Movement to an annualised salary rather than wages plus shift penalties. This is so we don’t lose money when we are sick or take long service leave. This commitment was agreed by Qantas in 1998 in return for efficiencies and placed in our certified Agreement back then. They have never delivered it. It is simply an outstanding commitment they have never honoured. They say it will cost them $70 million dollars, that is $70 million dollars of our money that they owe us and have never paid. Our claim is not to recover all the lost money over the period since 1998, its just to have it put in place from today.

· 50% increase to Senior LAME allowance. This amount is currently $110 per week. It applies to less than a quarter of the members and is a small amount in the scheme of things.

Other claims are varied and I will touch on them briefly. Please remember this is a log of claims, it is not a list of our entire expectations. It provides a range of ideas and options for the airline to consider in preparation for an offer. I have never been involved in negotiations where all expectations are met and these round is no different.

· One week extra leave per annum – this claim is simple, an extra week is worth about 2.5% pa. Virgin did not hesitate to implement this in their recent Agreement and six weeks leave for us has now become an industry standard.

· Increases to redundancy entitlements – We shall only press these claims if Qantas refuses to deliver the job security we are after. The idea is that if you want to tear the house down, we will make it too expensive for you.

· Laptops – Currently resolved by reinstatement of the ability to purchase salary sacrifice computer.

· Qantas Club Membership – We don’t want this for free as has been reported. We want LAMEs with 5 year service to be able to purchase membership like 20,000,000 other Aussies can do. We are sick of being described as grubby Engineers who are overpaid tradespeople who must be kept out of these facilities at all costs.

· Confirmed Long Service Leave trips after 10 years – Claim dropped.

· Revision to previous priorities for staff wishing to travel – When we use standby travel whilst on holidays, the old system saw staff allocated seating based on years of service and your position in the company. Qantas recently changed the policy so that 500 managers can jump the queue. An IT manager with 12 months service can now trump a Qantas Captain with 35 year’s service. If you think that’s fair, fill your boots. Your dwindling respect from airline employees will plummet, I’d suggest further comments by you in the press about it will leave you with only about 500 fans, all managers of course.

· Transition to retirement scheme – This claim is for some provision to increase access to part time work or job share. It benefits both parties.

· Long Service Leave to be taken in smaller blocks – We must take 15 days minimum now, trouble is finding a slot where you can take it. If you can take it in smaller packets we could actually use the well-earned leave.

· Meal allowances at ATO rates – Simple claim, the current rates for our members are less than ATO and the Unlicenced Engineers.

· No Cancellation of Annual Leave – When our members have leave approved and go and book their holidays, they don’t want the decision reversed.

· Consultation on business decisions – This is a mandatory term, we want the consultation to occur before final decisions are made.

· A Fair Disciplinary Procedure – We don’t want members punished in a harsh, unfair or unjust manner.

· Single dollar payments for short notice secondments – Our members repair aircraft at outstations, when the aircraft is ready to come home the Engineer often doesn’t get given a seat home. We say he should be paid at single time until he gets home. They shouldn’t sit around at airports waiting for seat whilst their dinner goes cold at home.


So that’s about it. Hope you have a good understanding of where we are at. I am hoping that your future reports are a little more balanced. You have my number, please don’t hesitate to use it.


Cheers
Steve Purvinas
ALAEA
Federal Secretary

[SRM]

Sorry Steve, but who the hell is Geoffrey Thomas (Aviation expert) ?

SRM

[Jet-A-One]

Well written Steve.

Keep up the good work:ok:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

He writes for Aviation Australia and occassionaly appears on Sunrise. My email to him the other day simply said-

Why do you hate us so much?

He responded and sought further details. I decided to share some with him.

[Jack Ranga]

I saw that interview on the telly. It is clear that CH7 is a Jetstar (Qantas) stooge. His comments were ill informed vitriol with an obvious agenda.

A few questions for Mr Thomas:

Who employs you, pays your wages?

Do you travel on Qantas? When you do, do you get complimentary upgrades?

What qualifies you as an 'aviation expert'?

The very people you deride are by definition aviation experts not you, you contemptible excuse of an 'expert' :yuk:

[QAN_Shareholder]

Isn't this a bit misleading

The absolute maximum is $113,516 for a person licenced on a multitude of aircraft with many years (usually over 20 with Qantas) experience.

Quoting from the following

http://www.alaea.asn.au/CMS/plainText/Notices/files/20080428_QF%20EBA%20update%2028%20April%20Late%20Edition.pdf

"A level 13 multiple licensed Qantas LAME working the Domestic 12 hour roster earns $134,300 including shift penalties."

Given the notice was dated 2008 I am guessing this is more like $150k now?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

The figures come directly from our wage Agreement.

The earnings can be greater with Shift penalties and overtime as explained in the letter.

[QAN_Shareholder]

The earnings can be greater with Shift penalties and overtime as explained in the letter.

But the following implies it is normal to get shift penalties :

"A level 13 multiple licensed Qantas LAME working the Domestic 12 hour roster earns $134,300 including shift penalties."

and doesn't mention overtime, so would this be on top of the $150k?

Seems to me a similar tactic to Qantas use in statements about 30%+ pay rises, just be selective in what you include and exclude.

And just how many of Qantas LAMEs are level 13?

[FCMC]

Absolutely brilliant SP.
I presume this is the biggest sticking point

Existing job function retention – We are seeking to hold all the current functions we do.

Thankyou for all your work.Hopefully our kids will have an Aviation
Career in this country thanks to you.

[Jet-A-One]

What were you doing at 4am this morning QAN_Shareholder?

My crew and I were fixing jets in the freezing cold while my Mrs was at home in bed alone. The same place we were on xmas morning while my kids were opening their presents.

Do you think we don't deserve shift penalties for making these sacrifices?

Are you aware we lose said penalties if we fall ill or our roster is changed and that our super is not calculated including this money.

I've got 15yrs service as an engineer at QF and I won't crack $100k this year. That INCLUDES ALL PENALTIES AND ALLOWANCES and I never knock back overtime when it's on offer. If you think that's great money you're delusional.

FYI no one on my crew is Lvl 13. Even my leading hand is only an 11...

If you don't believe me, PM me and I'll gladly send you a copy of my last pay slip.

['holic]

QAN_Shareholder,
Seemed pretty open and straight forward to me.

Are you trying to tell me that as a "shareholder" after reading Steve's letter your greatest concern is with semantics? Shonky overseas maintenance, buried reports, outsourcing debacles etc etc and you want to quibble and play word games. Well done. Of all the myriad of issues and problems at the moment, this is the important one.

Why aren't you questioning why your dividends are being spent starting more offshore airlines, when the ones we already own lose money?

Why, as a "shareholder", aren't you questioning your dividends being spent on the Qantas PR department? They don't actually contribute anything to the day to day running of the company, and besides, if they're giving the media an open and honest account it shouldn't take a whole department of uni graduates to think up the truth.

PS. Well done Steve. Any response?

[assasin8]

Well written Steve...

Best of luck to you and all the engineers...

It's a real shame that the bean-counters don't appreciate that "safety before schedule" rests on the shoulders of yourselves, as well as the pilots and cabin crew!

Keep up the good work and thanks for looking after the aircraft that we operate.:D

[framer]

And just how many of Qantas LAMEs are level 13?

No wonder you bought shares in QF....you obviously can't read;

Out of over 1600 LAMEs at Qantas, only 45 are on that top level. ....d1ckhead.

Are you trying to tell me that as a "shareholder" after reading Steve's letter your greatest concern is with semantics? Shonky overseas maintenance, buried reports, outsourcing debacles etc etc and you want to quibble and play word games. Well done. Of all the myriad of issues and problems at the moment, this is the important one.


Unfortunately thats the type of person we're dealing with. I imagine he's never been in a life or death situation before, let alone been responsible for others lives while it plays out.

[QAN_Shareholder]

Jet-A-one

Do you think we don't deserve shift penalties for making these sacrifices?


I never said anything about the fairness of it, my point is that giving the impression of an income of $113k as an absolute maximum when really it is 40%+ higher is misleading. To me it looks like hypocrisy to criticise Qantas for making inaccurate statements when both sides are playing the same game.

[ampclamp]

That is a pretty good all round note to straighten things out.
Let's see if some balance is shown.

[Another Number]

Sorry Steve, but who the hell is Geoffrey Thomas (Aviation expert) ?

Geoffrey Thomas is a travel writer.

He has spent many years flying to top destinations worldwide.

With an interest in aviation, he has written about flying, and has cultivated contacts in the airlines.

Now publications (especially the West Australian) brand him as their award-winning "aviation expert" (or in the West social pages, "Biggles").

Some people get a little upset that someone who enjoys "sponsored" travel is made out to be an aviation expert, and most punters probably think he's a former pilot.

That said, from the media's point of view, one might expect he'd be encouraged to argue for the lowest airfares and best on-time performance - what the punters want! Not what nasty delay-creating engineers want, or those "princesses" in the cockpit.

A.N.

[QF22]

QAN shareholder? or Qantas management stooge?

[Short_Circuit]

He has never complained about the lack of (none nil zip) dividends, sooo...:suspect: its obvious..

[Worrals in the wilds]

Why do you hate us so much?

AWEsome responsse. :EGreat letter.

I never said anything about the fairness of it, my point is that giving the impression of an income of $113k as an absolute maximum when really it is 40%+ higher is misleading.
In my experience job income figures for wage earning positions are generally stated exclusive of shift penalties and allowances. Airservices do this, government does this and so does the private sector. You'll see numerous examples in any jobs vacant section. Obviously salary packages are different, but LAMEs are on hourly wages.

[ampclamp]

I'm a QAN share holder too.
There is no guarantee you will get the shift loading for ever.It is not part of your wage.If they take away line maint a LAME may have to go to heavy and just do days and afternoons losing many thousands of dollars.You can only bank on your base rate in the current climate. There are so many different shifts it would be tedious to state them all.
We are not arguing over wages. We'll take the 3% offered I'd just like to know where my job will be in a few years.
If qantas cannot tell me that they are incompetent, liars or just poor leaders.
Steve stated some facts . The QF people cant even stick to the same fabricated stories.I loved the 160000000 extra over 3 years line from AJ
Qantas will talk about everything else to distract from the real issue that is on shore maintenance and proper pre flight inspections of aircraft.It is not about money it is about jobs.

[Keg]

Are you trying to tell me that as a "shareholder" after reading Steve's letter your greatest concern is with semantics? Shonky overseas maintenance, buried reports, outsourcing debacles etc etc and you want to quibble and play word games. Well done. Of all the myriad of issues and problems at the moment, this is the important one.

Lol. After shown to be a bit of a dill I wonder if QAN Shareholder will return any time soon.

Nice work Steve.

[bandit2]

To all QAN Shareholders out there. You got a dividend lately? That's the sort of mismanagement we're dealing with!

[empire4]

well done steve, you make us proud every day.
Maybe we should take him up to Malaysia and Singapore and show him how they do things up there, or don't!

[Flokkered]

Not bad at all Steve however I still don't think these guys really get the responsibility a LAME has when certifying on aircraft. These clown have to understand that a when a Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer signs for the work he/she has carried out on the aircraft - that signature remains with the Aircraft logbook/Tech log for the life of the aircraft. A LAME is still held fully accountable for the work he/she has certified for even after he has retired. If an aircraft has an incident and you signed for the work or maintenance release then its your ass on the line or in the court room. Really - LAME's get paid Fock all for the responsibility and accountability they have on a daily basis.
Flokk

[Jetro6UL]

QAN_Shareholder, I refer to my quote below from another thread:

Only moronic self flagellating cretins buy airline shares.

We jet fuel sniffing braindead idiots get them given to us as punishment for making a tragically misguided career choice earlier on in life.

I gather you bought your shares.

[unionist1974]

What a rant and why ? mmmmmmmmmm it has got to him , poor bugger.

[Ngineer]

Aviation expert

Sounds like a pretty cushie job. How do I become one??:}

['holic]

1974,
What is it with all you management pricks that you feel the need to get on here and pretend to be something that you are not? I don't think anyone here believes you are a unionist, anymore than they believe QAN_Shareholder is a shareholder. Your whole existence is based on lies - lies to the Senate, lies to the media, lies at the negotiating table. At least most people on here, while not divulging their names, make it fairly obvious who they are, whether they are pilots, engineers or F/As.

So why the need to pretend you aren't management? Or is deception the only method of "negotiating in good faith" that you know?

[unionist1974]

holic , are you related to Alco , sounds like it to me . And who entitles you to judge the credentials of a worker . you johnny come latelly. go back to your $ 129 plus LAME job and whinge about how hard you are done by you fool

[Much Ado]

Calm down guys. I am reminded of the old saying about not arguing with idiots...:ok:

[The Green Goblin]

holic , are you related to Alco , sounds like it to me . And who entitles you to judge the credentials of a worker . you johnny come latelly. go back to your $ 129 plus LAME job and whinge about how hard you are done by you fool

You're obviously a 20 something management stooge. No life experience and you write like you are typing on a Facebook wall.

Either that, or you failed English and can't spell :hmm:

So what sort of bonus do you get for stirring up the troops?

[Budfox]

So what sort of bonus do you get for stirring up the troops?

He will get 2 chocolate chip muffins for being a good boy :p

[David75]

He will get 2 chocolate chip muffins for being a good boy http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Which will directly affect the bottom line of the company by the sounds of it.

[up2us]

G'day Steve,
Just a quick note to say thankyou for your time in writing that letter, I don't think I have ever read/heard anyone explain our position as clearly as you have done. I'm very proud to be in an association such as the ALAEA and have leadership in the way we do. Just for a minute think of where the flying public would be without our association being the buffer. I hope every single person who flies on a cheap ticket will write to Qantas/Jetstar and explain that they would be happy to pay $5 more per flight if we are still fixing their planes that they and their families fly on!
Steve, why don't you send that letter to every Board member and Engineering manager and ask them to respond ? If there is only silence (which I expect, as they couldn't defend their position),we draw a line in the sand and defend our position to the end! This is by no means what I want but what the flying public would expect of us, it's huge sacrifice for us and our families but what is the alternative? I do not want to be known as a Qantas engineer that was on duty when a plane went down! I ask all of you, do you want to work for a company who hates you and hates what you do to the point of publicly fighting and demeaning you! I personally(mortgage,wife & young kids) have a lot to lose if we are shutdown, but I also have a very long and proud family history working at Qantas, it wouldn't be fare to them to stand by and do nothing.

['holic]

Sorry 1974, if you really are a "unionist" I apologise ......... sincerely ............... no, I really do

[Keg]

The thought that springs to mind.

Full page ad. Open letter to the travelling public. Wouldn't need much editing in order to make it suitable for that forum. Not sure the costs of those sorts of things in papers around the nation. Now's probably not the time for it anyway but it would be at some stage.

[Capn Bloggs]

YouTube - Geoff Thomas/Sunrise on QF Engos and Pilots

[biton]

At first I was feeling anxious about all of this stuff going on at the Qantas group. Even though I don't work there it is quite apparent that this is an assault on workers in this industry. But now, after a few days of following these posts and the mainstream media I now find myself laughing at the stupidity of the corporate types responsible for this current mess. They are so hell-bent on crushing their workforce and disengaging every member of their staff that that they seem to have poured all of their resources into this plan. So much so that as I read it in the papers today it is quite apparent they are not actually placing any resources into running an airline group. Their products are looking more like an industrial dispute centre than an airline and I'm sure this is filtering through to the public perception. In the process I'm sure they are literally handing business class passengers to Virgin (thank you very much). It seems amazing to me that a) the board allows this current management to continue on this course of apparent self-destruction and b) that these management stooges on here continue to justify these corporate decisions. Just makes them look as inept as the QF management really.

[ConfigFull]

Geoff Thomas/Sunrise on QF Engos and Pilots

I turned that off halfway through, how disgusting. If any pilot or engineer had the professionalism of this "journalist" there'd be smoking holes littered across Australia.

[Management In Charge]

Mr. Geoffrey Thomas is an excellent writer.

We believe that:
He knows more about our organization than any frontline worker.
He understands that we are about profit and money.
He understands our core need, which is to protect the public from mob like unionised and non-unionised brutality that may impact our bottom line.
He understands that we must feed the financial needs of our shareholder.
He understands that integrity, diversity, competiveness and safety are what Management is championing.
He understands the value of a solid business structure and that Management are ‘The Gatekeepers’ to our ongoing success.

We believe that Management are superior in intellect. We further believe that our ability to outwit, outlast and outplay any collective or individual attempt to force our hand will be met with a swift response which cannot be combated. We further believe that we are living in an era where the white collar rules supreme and with the support of our shareholder, bonus structure and sideline consultancies we will remain unbeatable.
The game has commenced.

The Boardroom Beckons

[assasin8]

Geez, that interview was balanced!:ugh:

Surely, the fact that Jetstar sponsor Sunrise wouldn't affect their reporting...:cool:

Not one mention of the Job Security clause being the big sticking point for the company. As the company has stated, even if we agreed to a pay cut, they wouldn't sign off on the Job Security.:*

"Not happy Jan..."

[Bazzamundi]

Set up an account for making donations in order to put that letter in a full page ad in national newspapers. I along with most QF employees will donate to see it done.

I really want to contribute to the good work that could be done to undermine these idiots and tell the real truth to the public.

[Ngineer]

Maybe a contender for media watch.

Media Watch tip-offs (http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/tipoffs.htm)

[Talkwrench]

Thanks for posting that clip Capn Bloggs, I hadn't seen it before.
I can honestly say I have never seen such a distorted, biased and factually incorrect view in relation to these negotiations than as was put by Geoff Thomas on that sunrise piece. Alan Joyce himself has more balance and factual correctness in his interviews than Geoff Thomas. If you were not aware that GT was presented as an 'Aviation Expert'you would have thought he was a QF spokesman arguing Qantas' case against the pilots and engineers.

In my opinion, either GT is ignorant of the facts or he has been induced by QF to present their PR line to the public.

Thankfully, Kochie and GT are not involved in determining the outcome of the ea negotiations. As I understand it, the qantas and alaea negotiating teams, and ultimately the employees, do that.

[1me]

Did you hear that fool claiming that the EBA would cost Qantas 300-400 million per year!!! Some people really just need to crawl back under their rocks don't they?

Expert..?? :yuk: He's the sort of person one wishes they could meet on the street..

And Steve.. top job with the letter mate!! :D :ok:
I bet a certain Geoffrey Thomas won't be calling you anytime soon..

[YOSHI]

Steve,

I think you forgot to mention that the Pass Mark for ALL of those Exams is 75%!

I'm not sure if there are any other professions with that requirement?

[Runaround Valve]

Steve,
I have been out of the industry for a number of years, in my time you sat the basic examinations for free. These days the CASA charge a certain fee to sit each examination, in the case of your 25 it adds up to a bit of money. If you fail and have to resit, pay another fee.
Just thought that you should have mentioned it.
Keep up the good work.
R V.

[piston broke again]

This stuff is making my skin crawl. I work for the 'other' side and I'm looking on with so much contempt for the QF hierarchy but more so the media that has its hands in so many different pockets and placing so much spin on this it's making me physically sick.

Channel 7, Geoffrey Thomas and the likes who are on this false propaganda media campaign to attack workers for getting a fair pay rise and fighting for better conditions....Shame on all of you! (and 3% mind you....CPI is 3.3% this year!! So in effect they are asking for a pay cut!!).

Let's get someone powerful in the media who wants to tell our story...and I say "our" story...Engineers, pilots whether its Qantas, Virgin, Jetstar, Tiger...we're in this together.

I've said my piece...
(Well written Steve) Kudos.

[Angle of Attack]

Well Its pretty simple if Kosh thinks 89 was bad well let's revisit it! Enuff Said!
Forget the media just focus and destroy Kosh!

[Oakape]

The thought that springs to mind.

Full page ad. Open letter to the travelling public. Wouldn't need much editing in order to make it suitable for that forum. Not sure the costs of those sorts of things in papers around the nation. Now's probably not the time for it anyway but it would be at some stage.

I'm with you Keg, I had exactly the same thought. Open letter in the Australian, Age & SMH. And for what it's worth, I think that now is the perfect time for it!

[piston broke again]

I will chip in for that.

[griffin one]

koshi is nothing more than a failed accountant nuff said

[The Green Goblin]

I'll be in that too.

I'd politely ask Dick Smith to match it dollar for dollar if he really cares about aviation safety.

He'd be an ideal spokesman for the cause (if you can hold your food down long enough) :p

So Dick, what say you?

[Transition Layer]

I'm pretty sure Mr. Thomas frequents these forums and has no doubt read this thread.

So Geoffrey, are you brave enough to give Steve the reply he deserves, whether that be through Pprune or via private email?

[lame1]

Please everyone give GT a break.I looked up his bio -Geoffrey Thomas has been in love with aircraft ever since his uncle – an engineer with Trans Australian Airlines – allowed him to clamber over Douglas DC-6Bs at Perth Airport in 1959.
After 25 years in commerce, Geoffrey turned his weekend hobby of writing articles on things that fly into a real job and was appointed the West Australian’s aviation writer in 1996
I wonder if he watched his aunty cook,maybe he could be a judge on Master Chef.

[1me]

I'm pretty sure Mr. Thomas frequents these forums and has no doubt read this thread.

So Geoffrey, are you brave enough to give Steve the reply he deserves, whether that be through PPRuNe or via private email?
Seriously..what do you think??

[Keg]

Open letter in the Australian, Age & SMH.

Perhaps one co-signed by AIPA and ALAEA if we wanted to share space on the page.

The engineers have declared a 'cease fire' for four weeks- and for fantastic reasons too.... I wonder how much extra those strike breakers are going to cost QF now :E- and so sometime around when it all gets serious again is the time.

[B772]

From memory I believe Geoffrey Thomas was inducted into aviation by his uncle who was a former engineer with TAA in Perth. That said, he has received a number of prestigious awards for his reporting and writing of aviation matters. He is a senior editor of Air Transport World.

[lame1]

I would be interested to know if GT has received free/or discounted flights on QF group A/C including upgrades and access to Qantas Club lounges /Chairmans lounge.

[theheadmaster]

While I agree with the sentiment, the letter would require some serious editing before posting in a major newspaper. I would suggest having it re-written by a media-savvy person. We are reading the letter as passionate interested parties that agree with the sentiment and arguments it contains. Any advertisement should be short and sharp, containing facts that are presented in a way that is difficult for a cynical media or Qantas to turn against us. In any case, some good media advice is required.

The crap coming out of these reports and stories is the same stuff that has been presented by Qantas itself via Worth for some time. AIPA and the engineers association should have some pre-prepared shut down statements to counter the standard overblown representation by Qantas. In fact I am surprised that recent interviews with AIPA representatives have not used such shut down statements when given the chance. It is not as if Worth or Qantas has come up with any new arguments in the last few moths.

Unfortunately, it is easy for time-limited unimaginative journos to write crap. All they have to do is find a few factoids that feed the fears and prejudices of their audience. A company with any media management skill is going to have these factoids presented to said journos via their media releases.

[geoffrey thomas]

Dear All:

Yes from time to time I do read PPrune and in fact I joined when there was 2000 members back in the 1990s.
I am travelling at the moment and do not have time to digest all of Steve's points but will do so over the next few days and responsd by Saturday. I hope that is acceptable to all.

But please allow me to make a few points.
1. There is probably no-one in Australia who has been more critical of Qantas in the public arena than myself. Over and over again I have pointed out that in recent decades Qantas has been last to market with consumer innovations. If they had been first instead of last then the public may have been more supportive of the airline.
2. No-one was more critical than me of the proposed Aviation Partners buyout of 2007/08.
3. I have never ever said that LAMEs are overpaid tradesman. I have the highest respect for their work. As I do the Qantas pilots.
4. I hate what is happening to our airline scene but it is reality of today and what our politicians have set in play.
5. The problem is as simple as it is tragic. The public will not pay what the engineers and pilots deserve. Passengers change airlines for a saving on a foreign LCC of $5. Just look at the numbers. LCCS carry 20% of the traffic into Australia. Qantas is at about 18% and declining.
6. Sure Qantas management needs to reinvent the airline as I have said many, many times on radio, TV and in Australian Aviation.
7. Australian Aviation has been critical of the lack of innovation at Qantas for decades.
8. One of you asked if I was brave enough. I am only one of two I think that actually uses my real name on PPrune. I am up to it.
9. No I am not a member of the Chairman’s Lounge but a member of the Qantas Club through my Silver FF card earned on real points.

But please allow me to answer Steve’s point more fully on the weekend.
Regards,
Geoffrey Thomas

[TIMA9X]

The crap coming out of these reports and stories is the same stuff that has been presented by Qantas itself via Worth for some time.Exactly, sadly this crap is allowed to continue unchecked for the damage it is doing to Q, makes me wish.........:)
43e_-CsgsIM

[Chronic Snoozer]

G'day GT,

Good on you for using your real name, but then your jobs probably not on the line being a journo and all,

The public will not pay what the engineers and pilots deserve.

Its a shame the public won't pay what the QANTAS managers deserve.

[Sunfish]

"QAN shareholder" first appeared on Pprune on Feb 15th 2011. His posts consistently support management. "Unionist1974" first surfaced in September 2010.

The posts of these people attempt to elicit violent and illegal responses - generate more heat than light. Ignore them.

[PACIFIC BARON]

Ben Sandilands take on the current situation

Something you won’t see on Sunrise or in print | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/05/18/something-you-wont-see-on-sunrise-or-in-print/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CrikeyBlogs%2Fplanetalking+%28Plane+Tal king%29)

[stewser89]

I gotta agree that AA is sometimes critical of Qantas and other airlines.

In this month there is an article from Australian Aviation written by GT entitled 'time to hit the reset button'

It is neither glowing account of the QF management or QF staff but an honest call on how the author see is.

Pick up this months copy and have a read for yourself.

Cameron

[breakfastburrito]

8. One of you asked if I was brave enough. I am only one of two I think that actually uses my real name on PPRuNe. I am up to it.
Just a small point GT, this comment implies anonymity of this site is a negative. On the contrary, many of most extraordinary FACTUAL revelations of the unseemly underside of this industry have surfaced only because of the anonymity. Many professionals "workshop" theories about all sorts of things only because of the anonymity, I believe this has been a positive for the industry, it effectively allows much greater oversight of management than would be possible if we had to reveal our identity. From time to time this anonymity is abused, but this is also a two way street, with airline managements "trolling" their own agenda's.

I would argue, that public safety has been enhanced by anonymity forums & knowledge sharing among professionals, allowing the public to observe and even participate in the debate.

[Spanner Turner]

Well,

considering that "Q" do not - & have not had, the capability to carry out inhouse heavy maintenance on their own 744's since 2005/6 - one must wonder who carried out the assembly of one of the poor old girls wing landing gear rear trunnions which has been found horrifically damaged by a Syd Base Maintenance Engineer!!

Yes, all those frequent flyers can cast their eye today across from the SYD Domestic Terminal and see the poor old girl stranded in H271 up on jacks while she's repaired with care by those that love her - yes those terrible overpaid / costly LAME's. If there're any pollies with a conscience sitting up in the Chairmans Lounge - just take a look through the glass - cast your eye to the right and find the Hangar with 271 written on the top (it's the one next to the old heavy maintenance hangar numbered 245 which in a complete case of irony was the hangar that this aircraft spent the first 16 years of it's life having heavy maintenance done on her until tragically shut-down)

You can't miss the aircraft - it's the one with the jacks installed at the wing roots to support it. ( Q corporate will now be on the phone to have the doors closed ASAP) can't have Joe Public witnessing the truth now, can we?

This landing gear was very close to complete failure - but luckily the damage was picked up by an ex-Syd heavy maintenance engineer (is there any other kind ?)

Expect to see it parked there for a while - Syd no longer has the support shops to effect a timely repair. What a joke.

:ok:
.

[Sunfish]

More posts like spanner turners, might be of assistance with your case.

[Gas Bags]

Lame 1 posted:

I would be interested to know if GT has receive free/or discounted flights on QF group A/C including upgrades and access to Qantas Club lounges /Chairmans lounge.


Geoffrey,

I see you have only answered part of this question, with a reference to the Chairmans lounge.

Perhaps in your expanded reply to Steve you could answer the remaining sections?

More specifically, do you, or have you at any time in the past, received any benefit from any company that forms part of the Qantas group, in the form of free travel, free upgrades, free entry on an ad hoc basis to any of the lounges your silver card does not automatically entitle you, or any other form of free or discounted benefit?

I do not work for Qantas so this dispute does not directly effect me, however it would be interesting to know the answer to this question.

GB

[Jack Ranga]

Geoffrey,

Your comments on Sunrise were a disgrace. If you are a frequent reader of pprune you would be well aware that Steve posts on here regularly. You could have got the facts from his side BEFORE you made those ridiculous comments on Sunrise.

Is this the type of lazy journalism you win awards for? Or is this the way journalism is generally in Australia, regurgitating company spin because you are too lazy to do some research.

I'd like to be able to say that I'll watch Sunrise, waiting for your retraction but I don't think that will happen will it?

[ozbiggles]

I think he already has really Gas Bags.
I think he has written some non flattering things on Qantas management.
Let him reply in time. Rather than have a go, if the argument is well reasoned and explained to him he may actually come on side.

[Jack Ranga]

oz,

He reads pprune, It didn't take me long to work out that ALAEA Fed Sec is who he says he is. He could have got the facts before that diatribe on Sunrise.......but he didn't. It's simply not good enough for him to contact SP after the fact, not if you're going to put yourself up as an 'expert.'

Do you reckon he'll go on Sunrise and make an apology and retract? (They wouldn't let him for a start)

[piston broke again]

Geoffrey,

So "more people are arriving into Australia on LCC's than they are Qantas". Ask yourself why??

It's because Qantas fly old aircraft with an inferior product to other full service carriers - Look at Etihad, Qatar, Emirates, Singapore, Cathay...If QF spent half as much time, effort and money on improving the product and engaging their staff, there wouldn't be these disputes.

New technologies aren't being implemented to make things easier for frequent flyers (tag your own bags etc), it's to cut costs because you're dealing with a CEO who only knows how to cut labour costs and not improve revenue. Do you think woolworths invested in their 'scan your own items' technology to make it better for the customer? No! It takes longer, but it saves $$ in labour. Thats all this is, bottom line. Its all about cutting costs...

Geoffrey if you were told tomorrow your position as a journalist is now being moved overseas, you have to take it, you have to take the pay cut - how would that make you feel? Would you still want to work for them? Always ask yourself what would I be doing in this situation.

Stop sensationalising over this 'laundry list of demands that are stupid'. - That is not journalism. Very weak Geoffrey. Very weak!

[Gas Bags]

Ozbiggles,

As I stated I am a bystander in this. When I watched that clip Geoffrey came across as very knowledgeable and extremely well informed on the subject matter, and his address was given with such confidence that one could not hesitate to assume its correctness.

Then I thought about the target audience that Sunrise has, the following that Kockie has amongst the audience, and for the average person watching over their morning coffee, or beer, they would have made their minds up in that few seconds of airplay.

Geoffrey must have received his information from somewhere. It so happens that his information matched the Qantas CEO's information perfectly, so one can only assume that he has received it from him, or one of his underlings. Where did the figure of 3-400 million dollars per year come from, I am sure it did not come from Steve!

For an industry expert to accept an interview on a prime tv station during one of the most watched shows of the day and so confidantly express the most glaringly obvious falsities is either incompetant or contrived. I do not believe that Geoffrey is incompetant.

I then asked myself what possible reason would this industry expert have to do what he did. Lame1 obviously came to the same conclusion I did.

Do not take this the wrong way, I agree with Geoffrey on a number of points, however he is totaly incorrect in quite a few of the others. The industry has changed and Qantas employees need to change with it. The unions (read the employees) provide balance to this change to ensure that one persons direction is indeed the right one. Without the unions involvement in this inevitable change Alan Joyce would have no maintenance carried out in this country, and a handful of cat A maintenance staff and mechanics running the line. He runs just that sort of operation in Singapore and Vietnam.

Specialised reporters should be capable of performing a basic fact check prior to appearing on prime time TV to talk about potential major disruptions to this countries transport system if they are to be deemed to be industry experts.....Or did Geoffrey run into Alan in one of the lounges during his frequent travels and have a quiet word with him.

Oh and ozbiggles, it is too late to get him on side, the damage is done. All those coffee drinking morning tv watchers now believe that each and every engineer is demanding free travel in first class, a free laptop, free access to the Qantas Club, 6 weeks leave, and a myriad of other 'ridiculous' claims in their 'laundry list', which if Qantas is to provide 'will be the beggining of the end for Qantas'.

And how does the average beer swilling, vodka and diet coke, drinking couple with kids and a huge mortgage on $60,000 a year know this, because this industry expert told them so and the trustwirthy David Kock reinforced it to them.

I am shocked at this mans actions, and I am not even an employee.

GB

[Mr. Hat]

Excellent letter Steve, it was great to learn about the background of the Engineers.

GT, stick to your Western Australian infomercials. This is serious and you my friend, you need to be careful as the QF pilots and engineers have a lot at stake. I wouldn't go shooting my mouth off like that again. Joyce and Wirth are going to push you (ipad and grange in hand) into the lions den and watch you from the stands.

Don't you think its strange and kind of COINCIDENTAL that the Qf group have MULTIPLE employee groups across MULTIPLE business' either taking industrial action against them or taking them to court. Isn't it also UNCANNY that Qf are constantly on the wrong side of the law getting fined for this cartel and for that price fixing scam? They announce a 500 MILLION dollar profit and now cry poor come wage negotiations time.

You're a smart guy you should join the dots before opening your mouth. Alternatively negotiate a very good package with Qf when agreeing to do PR. Are you a betting man? Are you picking up what I'm putting down?

[oicur12.again]

Since when were Etihad, Qatar, Emirates, Singapore, Cathay low cost airlines?

[aussie027]

I agree with Keg,
Get Steve's letter along with one from the pilots on a 1 page ad in the major papers so the public can get at least a glimpse of what is really going on instead of the BS sprouted by the lamestream media reading out/printing the airline companies press releases.
The pilots can tellabout the hiring of new pilots under different company names with different payscales and conditions instead of under their existing EBA's to sit in the same cockpits.
This is happening not just at Jokestar but at Cobham too.
Any other companies people know about???

How is this even legal under Aust IR laws when these new companies are only created to specifically circumvent mutually agreed EBA's???:mad::mad:

Need to get public awareness up now more than ever, esp with the Senators still digging into the issues and yet to report.

[TIMA9X]

The public will not pay what the engineers and pilots deserveBulldust! I don't think the public were given a vote on this matter and are now voting with their feet because of the uncertainty created by the bozos steering the ship since 2006! The whole thing stinks.

Although I agree that this thread should be a sticky for all to see, I don't accept from a self proclaimed "aviation expert" the above statement, no matter how he wishes to reply in full at a later date, the damage has been done, and it is clear to me what side of the fence this expert is on. What he said on "dumbrise" is unforgivable for a guy who is a so called veteran expert. Sorry, but the stakes are too high now for all the dribble generated @ Qs PR office, sanctioned by "destructo" AJ and the board. I am positive that AJ & OW are sniggering with delight, patting themselves on the back for feeding the media with misinformation.

I believe if we stay on message the public will pick up on these managers shortcomings, no "spirit in their Australia."

I won't be rushing out to buy another copy of Australian Aviation as a small protest.
I am convinced, all the drama with tech issues over the past year or so would not have been so severe if the once proud engineering shop was still intact.

[Worrals in the wilds]

5. The problem is as simple as it is tragic. The public will not pay what the engineers and pilots deserve. Passengers change airlines for a saving on a foreign LCC of $5. Just look at the numbers. LCCS carry 20% of the traffic into Australia. Qantas is at about 18% and declining.


I assume you're taking the numbers from BITRE's International Airline Activity Report 2010. This is well worth reading for anyone interested in the industry.
http://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/11/Files/1210_M.pdf

There is an excellent pie chart in that report that illustrates the market more accurately than the one statistic you quote (p8). 81.6% of international traffic in/out of Aus is not on LCCs. Carriers like SQ, Air New Zealand, MH and EK are each carrying over 8% of the load. The only LCC to approach those numbers is Jet* with 8.1%; the other LCCs are carrying 6.2% (the two Poo Blues, who will presumably become not-so-LCC Virgin Australia very soon) and Air Asia X with 2.8%. Tiger were too small to be listed as a percentage, but their annual pax total was 8641. These are not big numbers.

CX, Thai and MH are also carrying respectable loads and there are a number of smaller carriers like Royal Brunei who are developing a small but loyal local support base through competitive prices and excellent service.

This has to be biting into Qantas' 18% more than the collective Bogan Airways, although such analysis is beyond the scope of the report. While it's true the Qantas share declined from 2009 the amount (0.9%) is hardly a massive drop. SQ dropped by 1.0% in the same period. ANZ and EK sustained their share, and they are both full service carriers.

I think it's drawing a long bow to infer that the low cost carrier revolution is strangling full service travel in and out of Australia because the figures simply don't reflect that. What I think they do reflect is a number of savvy, well advertised foreign full service carriers that are gradually increasing their Australian market share at Qantas' expense.

Many Australians were traditionally suspicious about flying with foreign carriers. I'm sure everyone here who works in aviation has fielded several phone calls from their older rels booking airline tickets along the lines of 'whether those [insert foreign operator's country, usually Asian] are safe, dear':rolleyes:. However, as time goes by, firstly Aussies get less parochial and secondly a number of foreign carriers develop reputations for running safe, quality airlines. This decreases the former public bias against foreign carriers and erodes what was formerly Qantas' number one sales strategy... We're AUSSIE and we're SAFE becuase of that.

Qantas is speeding this process up by constantly offshoring stuff, using foreign crew, bitching and sniping about their staff and badly managing the PR whenever anything goes wrong. Talk to the average non-industry punter and they'll be full of how Qantas isn't SAFE anymore. If Qantas isn't AUSSIE either, then what's the advantage? People will continue to drift to SQ, EK and the like who advertise more effectively and provide a better product. Whether these are safer products is up for debate but as Ekman once said, Perception is reality to the Perceiver.

The LCCs will continue to do well in the backpacker, beach holiday and Kiwi F&R markets (and good luck to them) but IMO it's Singapore, Emirates and Cathay who will poach the Qantas pax, as Qantas management continues to fiddle while their product's reputation burns.

P.S. Thanks for replying to the thread.

[Oxidant]

The LCCs will continue to do well in the backpacker, beach holiday and Kiwi F&R markets (and good luck to them)but IMO it's Singapore, Emirates and Cathay who will poach the Qantas pax, as Qantas management continues to fiddle while their product's reputation burns.

Nail hit square on the head..........:ugh:

[zappalin]

Hear hear WITW!

[psycho joe]

The public will not pay what the engineers and pilots deserve

What percentage of an airline ticket cost represents Pilot and Engineer wages?

What percentage of a newspaper or magazine cost can be contributed to the cost of your articles?

Are you therefore responsible for the decline in print media in Australia?

I read newspapers and I know a few journalists. Can I call myself a print media expert?

Surely you realize that the wage argument is a red herring. If not, as a print media expert, my opinion is that your journalistic ability is worse than your aviation knowledge.

[swh]

Nail hit square on the head..........

Not really. What is happening is more passengers are flying, some airlines are being more successful than other in attracting these passengers. The actual overall market share of the airlines listed on a percentage basis may have decreased, while the overall number of passengers carried has increased.

When I last looked at it, a lot of the growth Emirates had was not at the expense of Qantas, it was a combination of more people flying, and other Asian carriers.

One cannot come up with a statistical basis for those comments based on a a single BITRE report.

P.s. Has anyone got a link to the P LAME or P AME website so I can bitch about my T&Cs ?

If Steve wants to get his cause heard, The Australian Frequent Flyer Online Community - The Australian Frequent Flyer (http://www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au/) would be a far better place.

[framer]

The public will not pay what the engineers and pilots deserve

You'd better tell that to Southwest before they continue with their long success story.

[Transition Layer]

Thanks for responding Geoffrey, (even if I don't agree with what you're saying).

As for:

8. One of you asked if I was brave enough. I am only one of two I think that actually uses my real name on PPRuNe. I am up to it.

As breakfastburrito says, the anonymity on this site is somewhat of a blessing as it allows free speech.

As you may or may not be aware, Qantas pilots have their own internet forum where real names are used. Management are frequent readers (and contributors), and as a result, the subsequent discussions are nowhere near as interesting, informative or probing.

[piston broke again]

oicur12.again (http://www.pprune.org/members/337083-oicur12-again)
Re-read my post. I never said those airlines were LCC and its quite obvious they're not. But most other major non-LCC's are now thriving...Why is GT comparing QF to LCC's coming into Australia? Qantas HAVE one of those already! Its called Jetstar!!

[Worrals in the wilds]

One cannot come up with a statistical basis for those comments based on a a single BITRE report.

One wasn't trying to and of course you may well be correct. One will look at reports from further back, because it's an interesting point.

However, I don't see a statistical basis for Geoffery's statement either. I don't believe that the LCC phenomenon is as pervasive as all that, and the numbers show that most people still prefer to fly a full cost carrier when travelling internationally.

[DEFCON4]

I don't think Qantas has been interested in the Australian market for a long time.It sees its future in the larger markets of Asia.It would like to take it's whole operation off shore but is prevented from doing so by the Qantas Sale Act.The domestic arm does well but the international arm languishes.Its deliberate.Run it into the ground,piss off the staff and through a hedge fund (or some other entity)take it off shore.Dixon almost pulled that off.This is why the script has been transferred from Dixon to Joyce.It was why Joyce was given the gig.
The A380 will be the only Qantas Aircraft based in Australia.All others will be off shored.Those aircraft and crew based in Asia will feed the domestic arm and the intra asian Jetstar franchises.From my perspective thats how the end game will pan out.Regional stuff based in Asia on a lower cost base and longhaul exclusively A380 based in Australia.Engineering,call centres,administration and reservations all off shore courtesy of technology.
Are you Australian and want to work for Qantas ? Be prepared to live in Asia on lower than Australian wages.
Qantas dont care about the EBA negotiations.They dont care about PIA.All this just makes it easier for them to close the joint down and re open in Asia.Once this is done just watch the Qantas brand rebuilding begin in earnest.Via an Asian Ad agency I might add

[swh]

However, I don't see a statistical basis for Geoffery's statement either. I don't believe that the LCC phenomenon is as pervasive as all that, and the numbers show that most people still prefer to fly a full cost carrier when travelling internationally.

I think GTs numbers are a bit low, however my idea of a low cost airline may not be his. Low cost airlines in my book include Poly and Pac Blue, both of the Air Asia airlines (Indo and Malay), Tiger (Sin), Jetstar (Oz, Sin, NZ), JALways, Strategic, Solomon, Our Airline, Air Vanuatu and Air Austral.

A lot, if not most of these were never operating internationally into Australia 5-10 years ago.

After watching that clip I would be amazed if you can hold your head up while watching it.

In GTs defence, he is a journalist, that specialises in covering aviation related stories, he is often then labelled by the media running his material as being a aviation specialist or expert. That is not suggesting he is has any form of aviation related qualification, it just means that the area he covers in the media, don’t expect him to be presenting a political, real estate, finance, or weather report.

GT is still only of only half a dozen or so aviation journalists worldwide that I find does get most of material right, and as anyone knows who has even been interviewed on TV, it is not hard to be backed into a corner until they have what they want from you.

If you want to give him some factual information, why not drop him and email, or call him. I have found him a very pleasant person to interact with in the past, and often you can have a conversation without breaching any data confidentially issues.

[aveng]

There is such a thing as supply and demand - Australian engineers have been sought the world over. QF engineers are not the best payed when you take into account the number of A/C types they hold, take away the shift penalties and people would be shocked. Hell even the Manager of Chicken treat in Karatha is reported to be on $120k.:ugh:

[Nudlaug]

@Spanner Turner

This landing gear was very close to complete failure - but luckily the damage was picked up by an ex-Syd heavy maintenance engineer (is there any other kind ?)

Bow to you my friend! Exactly my thoughts and something management will never be able to comprehend.
The kind of expertise people used to receive at Qantas Heavy Maintenance, Component, Workshops, Base, Survival, Engine Shops, you name it.... just priceless.... Something bean counters completely undervalue.
You can't teach that kind of stuff in a course. All you can do in various courses is satisfy regulatory requirements, which are the absolute bare minimums which aren't going to get you very far in real life.
The immersion and exposure to the basics and up to extremely complex processes and systems that cover the entire aircraft spectrum in all its tiniest facets that is represented by your journey through various sections of the aircraft maintenance business equipped you with an immense wealth of experience and knowledge rivalled only by the very best in the business.
It's only that kind of expertise that can pick up serious issues like the one you mentioned BEFORE they occur. Kelloggs licenced blokes let it fly until the f***ing gear snaps off.....
Sadly, those times are gone. The travelling public doesn't give a flying f**k about quality, especially not in aircraft maintenance. Show em a movie, stuff their faces with muffins, and promise them a 5$ deal (regardless how high the true hidden costs of the ticket actually are) and the cattle is happy. They are in fact twice happy. First because they reckon they caught a bargain and secondly because they can whinge about the crap experience they had
Sad state of our whole globalised world, greed, bloody greed. Very sad

[packrat]

Deprived of Oxygen at birth.Sad ...very sad.Feel sorry for his folks

[Redstone]

Does your mum and dad know you are on the computer so late in the evening? Haven't you got homework to do?

[Chronic Snoozer]

So , continue on boys biting the mouth that feeds you
WTF?? Expecting a French kiss were we?
unionist, (clearly an oxymoron) history is littered with examples of corporations exploiting their workforce. Were it not for the militancy (a necessary evil as it were) of workers, the rich would be even richer. Quite simply what is your point, and what do you have against those wish to negotiate their terms and conditions?
Not like you overpaid lot who vote Liberal Just a hint a bias, and almost keeping a straight face as you typed that?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Looking forward to your response GT.

Just my thoughts guys. GT has also been critical of Qf management and I don't suspect he has been involved in any cash for comments type arrangement. Also channel 7 who obviously run Sunrise have been good to our union in the past and I reckon they just think the things GT says are genuine and accurate.

GT has had my number for a few years and could always have called me. I hadn't seen the episode until it was posted on here and was no happier after viewing. When asked if Qantas Engineers get paid more than those at Virgin the response was an absolutely positive yes. I don't know where Geoff got that info from and it is incorrect. Then to hear that the claims of 1600 Engineers would cost between $300m - $400m a year was pretty poor. That equates to $187k - $250k each.

It looked very convincing GT and it was so wrong. I also disagree with your ideas on how Qantas has to change.

cheers
Steve

[Stalins ugly Brother]

Mr Thomas,

To be considered an expert on any industry firstly you need to gain the respect of the people the actually work in that industry. You have just lost any you had.
You have, in a two and a half minute piece on Sunrise, shown your complete lack of knowledge and understanding of the underlying problems with Qantas management. The Engineers and Pilots now have to put their reputations and careers on the line to protect what was considered a given to the consumer when they flew Qantas, SAFETY!

These are people that have put a dollar amount on a "smoking hole in the ground" in the blind desire to minimise costs and maximise KPI's. It isn't even about the shareholders anymore, considering the share price of $2.10 and no dividend for two years. The pilots and engineers haven't put Qantas in this situation, Qantas management's mismanagement has done so.

I invite you next time you are in Sydney to drop by the Qantas offices and visit the crew from the QF32 and explain to them that they are not worth the money they are paid and that it is OK to offshore their jobs because it will make Qantas more profitable. Explain to them why its OK to now have no career progression and that their experience doesn't matter because a 200 hour cadet could easily take their place. This is what is going on in the Qantas group and highlights managements attitude to their experienced staff, FACT!

Your piece on Sunrise was insulting to all Qantas pilots and engineers and wont be forgotten quickly. We are hard working professionals that ONLY have the best interest of Qantas at heart. You need to remember that it is this collective group of employees that will have careers (probably not anymore) with Qantas upwards of 30 plus years, not Mr Joyce and his bum boys.

I look forward to your reply to SP, (these are concerns that affect both groups intimately but fail continually to be addressed by Mr Joyce and co) and although I am sure you will be sympathetic and understanding, it will be only lip service until you get off your arse and investigate these and other serious claims that are plaguing our industry and airline. Then you may gain some respect again.

And get back on Sunrise and correct the "misunderstandings" you have helped to create.

[Jetro6UL]

...In return, we get paid a reasonable wage and so we should. Our remuneration is certainly not excessive. Our wages start at $63,440 when we have one licence....

The average wage in Australia is over $67K....

Average earners waving, not drowning | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/average-earners-waving-not-drowning/story-fn7j19iv-1226059190696)

The base LAME wage is way too low. As Qantas is absolutely rolling in cash, they can afford a measly 3%.

[Mr. Hat]

Either very brave or very stupid.

[Ngineer]

Looking forward to your response GT.



I think "a response" would be more accurate. IMHO, the formal response will probably not be his, otherwise he could have quite easliy provided it in his previous post. He seems aware of the content of this thread, and the opinions of those employees who have listened to his proir commentary.

Maybe it is being compiled as we speak.

$300 mill!! Thats a joke. I am sure, however, that they wouldn't bat an eyelid in spending that to destroy us. They tried to last EBA.

[bandit2]

Maybe we should mention to the media how much QF pay strike breakers per 6 month contract.

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

I won't be rushing out to buy another copy of Australian Aviation as a small protest.

...and don't forget to pick up your dummy as well! :ugh:

From all my dealings with the team at AA, they are very dedicated at what they do and produce a high quality product on a shoestring budget in a shrinking magazine market.

Just because one of their freelance columnists has an opinion with which you don't agree on one particular subject (and he often criticises QF in the magazine too), does that mean the whole magazine is wrong too? Grow up...:suspect:

And as for those suggesting GT is on the take from QF, unless you know this for a fact, such comments make you no better than what you are accusing him of! :*

[Stationair8]

What qualifications does Geoffrey Thomas have to make him or qualify him as an expert in aviation?

[tartare]

Gasbag - in relation to the perks - it's not just QF that you should be asking him about...

[TIMA9X]

I won't be rushing out to buy another copy of Australian Aviation as a small protest.Ok, point taken, I withdraw the above comment, sorry AA, as I sit here looking at two shelves full of the magazine collected over the years, it is a good publication.:)

...and don't forget to pick up your dummy as well!Thanks, found it, GT did my head in with The public will not pay what the engineers and pilots deserve amongst other things that has progressed this thread to over 100 comments in a few days! I spat my dummy so hard I had to go to Fychwick A.C.T. to get it.

One of the stupidest "expert" set of words I have ever read on this forum.

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

What qualifications does Geoffrey Thomas have to make him or qualify him as an expert in aviation?

Probably the same qualifications as those who report on politics have - you don't have to have done something to be an "expert" on it. GT appears to be well read and otherwise as well qualified as possible without actually having 'done it'. What he doesn't have is any baggage from working for a particular airline or manufacturer etc to be otherwise influenced by them.

If anyone knows of a retired/former Pilot or Engo or airline exec who can write well or is comfortable giving opinion in front of a camera and can remain totally impartial towards their former employers, I'm sure AA or Sunrise would love to hear from them.

Until then, GT or others like Peter Harbison and Ben Sandilands are the experts we have.

[assasin8]

God help us then...:ugh:

As has already been said, that was the most unbalanced "interview" I've seen in a while...

Maybe GT is going for the soon to be vacated Qantas PR position?

[Short_Circuit]

you don't have to have done something to be an "expert" on it.
So to be an expert Pilot or Engineer you don't have to have done it. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

I said expert ON it, not expert AT it!:rolleyes:

I would also suggest that its probably Sunrise who labels him as "an expert" as opposed to himself promoting himself as one.

Anyway, you guys continue to play semantics while the big boys worry about the real issue here. :hmm:

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

So get out there and get a journalism degree or start writing articles or offering yourself up for interviews instead. What's stopping you? :suspect:

Until then, it's GT or nothing...

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

:hmm:

No wonder Qantas management won't deal with you lot if this is indicative of the way you present your arguments! Good luck to you...

Don't worry Mods, no need to close it down. I'll return to normal programming now...

[L Riding hood]

FA18 you made some good points and bad ones but all I ask for is the truth to be told to the public
And what was on sunrise was far from it
And I would expect an expert journalist to research all avenues be for commenting especially on national TV,
We all make mistakes from time to time and the difference between an idiot and an expert is the expert will learn from it

[nitpicker330]

IMHO AA displayed some bias toward Ansett and Australian Management during that year that can't be mentioned so I expect they'll be no different this time round.

Standing by to be deleted…………..

Edited by MA to avoid thread lock.:suspect:

[Arnold E]

Maybe we should mention to the media how much QF pay strike breakers per 6 month contract

Ok, how much is that:confused:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Was $100k for a 6 month stint last time. 2 weeks training and then just wait at home for the call.

[Arnold E]

Jeez, how is that good for QANTAS?
You guys must know how I feel about scabs from some of my previous posts, I am old school, and I dont apologise for that.
I think that anybody that acts as a strike breaker, for any reason, is a prostitute, yes, and that includes you, if that is what you are doing. ( I wish I could find an angry emoticon )

[OhForSure]

Wow.

Never before have I seen this forum so united.

However, people are focused on the wrong side of this story. Whether or not GT is an aviation expert is irrelevant. He doesn't professionally do ANYTHING in our industry. What he IS, is a professional journalist. I have read a vast number of your articles and columns over the years Geoff, and to be honest, I've always found your writing to be largely impartial and interesting. What I saw the other morning on Sunrise was abhorrent. I was always taught at university to collect all the facts and information before putting pen to paper, to avoid making a fool of myself. Thankfully, I only had my lecturer's opinion to sway... you unfortunately (for us), had millions watching you. The very best journalists always portray both sides of the story; present the facts and let the viewer decide what to think. YOU TOLD THE VIEWER WHAT TO THINK, AND FED THEM FALSE INFORMATION.

I don't care if you're an aviation expert or not GT, you certainly are not an expert journalist.

For your information, I'm not a Qantas pilot or engineer.

[RATpin]

From the wizard of id,Remember the Golden rule!
"He who has the gold,makes the rules!
Guess what,the media are going to side with who pays the bills(Qantas/Jetstar)
You guy's need professional help or your sunk.
Sorry,but that is the way it is!

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

What angers me is this. It was a cuppla years ago and I saw something that GT did that made me hit the roof, similar scenario. I thought i would contact this bloke to set the record straight. He was nice on the phone and agreed that he should call me if there was anything of relevance that he would be talking or writing about.

He knew very well the topic of this Sunrise episode beforehand. He knew my number and he did not call me, the ALAEA main number or any LAME so he could report both sides of the story. The nice response to date contains this -

The public will not pay what the engineers and pilots deserve.

Watch what you say on the show GT. Watch it again and tell us wtf you are basically saying the opposite whilst talking to 4 Million people.

[TIMA9X]

ALAEA Fed Sec,

I re-posted what he said here for everyone's convenience.

He knew very well the topic of this Sunrise episode beforehand.Oh yes, first thing that came to my mind as well..:suspect:

Talk about pulling the wings off the roo and turning it into a dirty rat! :ugh:

dp6_9zhEWpA

[SeldomFixit]

A more chastened GT on Sunrise this morning where " Qantas Pilots are the best of the best, as of course are their Engineers "
All in the context of commenting on whether or not Pilots were being pressured to carry less fuel. :D

[ozbiggles]

Followed by the classic line
"Low Cost Carriers are perfectly safe".
Q. Name the last RPT airline in Australia to get a show cause?
Maybe he should research some of the ATSB reports around at the moment too.
And notice too there wasn't one piece of footage or mention of Jetstar when he spoke about LCCs....but plenty of other carriers. Nor any mention of the programs major sponsor.
I was neutral.....now "stone him!!!!". In the monty Python sense of course.

[stewser89]

has anyone got it on youtube yet?

[kimir]

"The best of the best"....what a tool. That really is displaying how little he knows about the industry. A real suckup to the QF guys and Gals. Pretty pathetic really.:yuk:

[piston broke again]

TIMA9X - I really enjoyed the last few seconds :D The rest was absolute dribble as we have well discussed :)

[Eddie Bauer]

I will preface this by stating that I am not an aviation expert, merely one of the multitude of walking freight that fly on QF, and fly quite regularly (every 2 weeks interstate and intrastate on QF and QFlink).

Since the demise of Ansett, QF has been my preferred carrier. I always chose to fly QF due to the fact that I felt it gave many Australians a job and futures for kids coming up through the ranks.

I am appalled by the current state of affairs. Management have absolutely lost the plot. I don't give a stuff about new FF programs or enhanced points earning. I don't give a stuff about new partnerships with Optus. I certainly don't give a stuff about new top tier Platinum One (or whatever they want to call it!).

What I do care about is the future of Australian men and women who are, and have been, doing a bloody great job looking after the flying public. Whether it be the hosties, pilots, F/O's or LAME's. I think that job protection is a must. Why are we outsourcing safety critical areas of the business? Quality control cannot be managed correctly when the process is done away from our business.

As has been stated previously, the experience that is gained by working in our own maintenance shops is not something that can be learnt from a text. It is something that is handed down to new generations of staff that come through the business.

I would like to point out to Mr Joyce and the board, you need to talk to the travelling public more. I would rather pay more for my flight and get a full service experience (which also relates to maintenance and training) than try to get the cheapest deal on a LCC. And I know that many of my colleagues would agree.

To the QF management team i say, you will only find the darkest corner of the room whilst you have your head up your arse. Please remove it and see the light.

to the QF staff, keep up the good fight! You have mine and many others support out there. We do not want to boycott the airline as we feel this will only hurt your cause. Thanks and keep up the great work on the ground and in the air guys and gals, and i'll see you next time i fly!

[SimonBl]

Eddie, hear hear and me too...

[geoffrey thomas]

Hi Steve:
Firstly thank you for your time and trouble to put together the document and I comment as follows:
1. I have never ever described your members or Qantas pilots in anything but glowing terms. Recently I have had more opportunity to talk about the pilots’ skill level because of the well publicised incidents.
2. I am well aware of the qualifications of engineers, the long hours, the shift work and the list goes on. Many would say that not nearly enough credit is given for the work that is done. The same can be said, of course, for the pilots.
3. You say: “You have also on a number of occasions supported Qantas comments about overseas facilities being as good as those in Australia. It appears from what we have heard that you are running directly from a Qantas PR running sheet.” There is no way that I am a Qantas mimic as you constantly say – hardly! The fact is simply this. LH Lufthansa Technik, HACEO and Singapore Airlines facilities are world class and used by airlines across the globe. If you have serious concerns about their facilities why not name them? You would be hard pressed to question the maintenance record of airlines such as Cathay Pacific and Lufthansa.
4. You say: “Qantas has said that it does and will not have enough A380s in their fleet to justify HM on this aircraft type. Qantas will ultimately have 20 A380s. Lufthansa on the other hand have 8 in service and 7 on order. Please do not support Qantas statements about aircraft numbers to justify maintenance facilities knowing that Lufthansa can do it with less planes than Qantas.” This reasoning is simply not correct and you know it. As everyone in the industry knows LH Technik is the world’s largest aircraft engineering business and it has set itself up as an A380 service centre for a host of airlines regardless of how many A380s they have. Which is why it will be - and is advertising as such - a 787 maintenance facility when it has not ordered one 787!! Steve, your point is a distortion of the facts which possibly raises questions about other items that you highlight.
5. Steve your claims regarding the 737s are at odds with my engineering sources and also Qantas’ so I am not sure where that leaves us. Can you produce the list of the 500 defects?? Perhaps you can post it on PPrune? With regard to the 90 defects I think in the end only 6 were confirmed as of Malaysian origin –which they deny - but regardless six is not acceptable I agree and I understand QF is not using them anymore.
6. You say that you don’t expect all your claims to be met but why include claims that will be ridiculed by the media. Not just by me but many others. Problem is just one silly claim in 28 can crucify you even if the other 27 are really valid and some clearly are.
7. Without knowing the full detail of the QF staff travel program I agree that it is wrong for say a one-year management graduate to get a seat ahead of a 20 year veteran.
8. I think it is a shame that your EBA negotiations are concurrent with the long-haul pilots and TWU because much of the media coverage lumps all the claims together into “airline unions are demanding” which doesn’t necessarily show you in a good light and blurs the issues.
9. But I agree with you that Qantas - and we in the media - should use one year figures to explain increases not three years or in your case two years. I certainly will do so from now on.
10. On wages do your figures include the 17.5% leave loading and the shift penalties which I believe can be up to 44% for the hours worked?
11. As I said rather than a lapdog for Qantas I am without doubt its most strident critic and have done so in various media platforms for years. I have long argued that Qantas has been last to market with cabin innovations that has cost them dearly and EK, SQ and CX etc have taken – higher yield - passengers away as well as millions of economy pax. See my article: (Where next for Qantas in the April Edition of Australian Aviation.) And this is not hindsight stuff…..
a. I lobbied then CEO James Strong in 1997 about Premium Y arguing that Australians are amongst the tallest in the world and we had many of the longest sectors to fly.
b. I also warned him about DVT becoming an issue.
c. I suggested one zone of a 747 be used and there be an increase of 10% in legroom and a 15% increase in fare level. He said they couldn’t make the business case.
d. I was touting the market draw of IFE for Y in the early-mid 1990s but to no avail at QF.
e. I also touted the virtues of a long-haul 300-seater (777 or A340) to serve many European cities that the 747 was way too big for. Again deaf ears.
f. Dixon later admitted that theses were all mistakes by Qantas and I still think it should order 10 to 20 777-300ERs now to replace the 747s over and above the 20 A380s.
g. I was also one of the few critics of the Airline Partners Australia Deal in 2007/08. You may recall Dixon touting Texas Pacific as the saviors of Continental as a reason to support the deal. I wrote strongly in Australian Aviation that that link was very wrong and mischievous.
h. Also I was scathing about the QF/BA deal in late 2008.
12. With more and more passengers - by percentage - flying on low cost carriers into Australia Qantas is now marginalized in many markets. Squeezed between better product /value premium carriers at the top end and LCCs below. Thus it is harder and harder for Qantas to command the higher fares that it used to. One member of PPrune posted that the latest BITRE figures were just one report. Indeed they are but go back over the last eight years and you will see that LCC numbers climb year-on-year and Qantas’ share declines year-on-year. It appears to be an irreversible trend.
13. On the same problem Qantas also once attracted passengers with its safety record but as airline safety in general has improved the ability to charge that premium is disappearing. Passengers change airlines for $10…I see it every day. Aircraft such as the 777 and 717 have never had a fatality.
14. More than anything else, what the airline industry in Australia is facing is the fallout from government policy over the past 20 years of privatizing airlines, allowing greater access to the Australian market in line with global liberalization and also giving 100% foreign owned airlines access to the domestic market. (Virgin Blue in 2000 and Tiger Airways).
15. On that issue I have also been a strident critic of deregulation repeatedly warning about its effects on the industry. It has devastated the US airline industry and ruined many lives.
16. A number of PPRuners have questioned my relationship with Qantas. Over the past 10 years it has been more “toxic” than “working” but that has certainly improved over the past two years. Yes I am a QF FF with silver status thanks to the linking of credit cards rather than flying and I note QF is onto that and now going to increase rewards for people who fly rather than accumulate points via CCs. And for the record yes Qantas does from time to time provide me travel to industry functions however I prefer to stay at home and would reject the majority of the trips offered by airlines in general. However in many cases I actually pay for my trips as it is policy for a number of the organizations I do work for. With regard to the Chairman’s lounge yes seen it twice in Perth to do interviews with Joyce and to set up a TV shoot for Channel 7. And no never had a bottle of Grange, which is good as I don’t drink red.
Steve, this industry is at the crossroads as we are seeing a tsunami of LCCS in Asia and Australia and I am deeply concerned about the affects of AirAsia on our industry in Australia. It has seat mile costs of approximately 2.5c ASK and Australians are flying with it in droves! How do you stop that? I don’t think you can!
You guys in Sydney haven’t seen the affects of Air Asia yet but look at the numbers ex Perth and Melbourne to Bali and KL…awesome and frightening. Indonesia AirAsia is four times daily between Perth and Bali and AirAsia X double daily with an A330 to KL. And yes AirAsia does not compete with Qantas but more Jetstar however its fare levels have the effect of dragging down fares across the board.
The local tourism industry in WA has been hit very hard as people make the choice between a trip down south or flying to Asia. In Feb 2011 largely because of AirAsia, Bali was the second most popular destination out of Perth with 44,000 pax with KL third at 29,000 pax. Singapore was number one ex Perth with 70,000 mainly because of SQ.
Steve you say in your email that “regarding increases to redundancy entitlements – We shall only press these claims if Qantas refuses to deliver the job security we are after. The idea is that if you want to tear the house down, we will make it too expensive for you.” It will not be Qantas that tears that house down it will be the travelling public.
I agree absolutely with your members Qantas has to be far, far smarter to make Qantas a compelling first choice for travel. (Some PPruners have criticized Qantas for flying around old aircraft. To be fair the QF Group should have 35 787s by now and nearly their full fleets of A380s but as we all know it has been let down badly by Boeing and Airbus.)
Question is, how do we achieve all of this in the current toxic environment? Perhaps you can lead the way and say roll over the EBA for 12 months and let’s reinvent Qantas. Challenge Joyce to reinvent travel! You would have every Australian behind you!
Qantas will not fall down this year or next nor in five years but unless this toxic environment is fixed and unless the airline gets on the front foot with commercial innovations it may not see its 100th year. Doomsday? All you have to do is look at history. Hundreds and hundreds of airlines have collapsed in the past 30 years, many of them household names or institutions. Who would have ever thought in the 1970s that Pan Am would be gone in 20 years or TWA shortly after. And more recently Japan Airlines bankruptcy is the biggest corporate collapse in Japan’s history with more than 16,000 staff gone. Sure Qantas isn’t Japan Airlines but if it wasn’t for the FF program and Jetstar it would be in lousy shape and that is a cold hard sobering fact!
Steve I deliver management and staff lectures on the need for change and delivered one this week in China. I start off with pictures of flight lines and production halls from Long Beach (Douglas and then McDonnell Douglas), Palmdale (Lockheed) and San Diego (Convair ) in California and also Boeing from 1960 to 1990. It’s a great picture show –if you like planes- but the point I make is that in the PP slides there are 45 airlines and five manufacturers. Today only five airlines and one manufacturer survive in their own right with the rest bankrupt, merged or out of the commercial aircraft business. Sobering stuff!
If SQ or EK smell blood what is to stop them setting up a domestic operation in Australia? Nothing! More likely what is to stop Etihad taking a slice of Virgin Australia and investing serious capital to fast track 10 more A330s? Nothing! And with the $A so strong Australian domestic operations are far, far more lucrative to an offshore airline. There has never been a better time. This isn’t rocket science it’s holistically simply history repeating itself which it has an annoying habit of doing.
The wider issue of where our industry is at is a Four Corners type story. Would you like me to raise it with them? My story on QF 32 in Australian Aviation was the basis of the A380 piece they did recently.
I could go on and on but a number of people who have contacted me over this issue have said that they didn’t read all of your reply as it was too long. Of course there was a good reason for that but I am sure people may have already switched off to my ramblings by now.
Again I thank you for the time and trouble you have given to put your members’ concerns across and in perspective and I will strive to get these points across both in print and electronically ASAP.
Regards,
Geoffrey Thomas
[email protected]

[gobbledock]

Response from GT
What a load of crap. One man's opinions from the seat of an armchair critic. You are sitting on the outside looking in and have no idea.

[another superlame]

gobbledock, you can't say it is crap because you don't with what he says or don't like the facts without spin.

I don't agree with it all but for the most part I think he is on the money.

Why don't the unions get together and take it to the board to give the airline a proper rejuvenation. Be realistic and buy 777s for f%$ks sake. Open up new routes. Dallas is the first new port for QF in ages and look at all the hoo-ha they made about it.

Personally I think they should have used VH-OEG which has been repainted and looks fresh. But no they used OEE which looks tired old and faded. Not the best publicity when you are trying to spruik your business.

Instead of fighting every step of the way, get all unions to be unified and put forward a business case to move forward and up. Don't give the management fools reasons to say no. Do the homework for them. It seems a lot of people have done it already, they just need to change to focus from now to the future.

[Longbow25]

I believe aircraft selection was based on operational performance rather than appearance.

[another superlame]

Fair enough, but it still looked crap.

[The Green Goblin]

I believe aircraft selection was based on operational performance rather than appearance.

The least MEL items and no rollers then hey :p

[AWB_Clerk]

Armchair critic sums him up very well.

Perhaps GT should get down to the shop floor for a week or so and have a shot at reality swinging a spanner (if anyone would let you near one), then perhaps you might understand the situation better; have a look around, see what state the place is in, use the clapped out IT system to order a part which is more often than not rarer than hens teeth, admire the recent hangar painting and ponder how that improves workers productivity over investing in GSE maintenance and equipment to enable people to actually do the job properly.

I know; how about you take a look at some of the aircraft with defects sitting around that come out of these "world class" facilities with components whose repairs/overhauls have been outsourced and ask yourself how could it be so if it was all done at a "world class" level? (looking in H271 at a certain 747-400 that's sitting there would be a good start at the moment)


You may not be a lapdog for QF, but you really don't have a clue what goes on, yet you go on Sunrise and sprout that dribble about engineers that I have personally seen work very hard to get a product of quality out in an environment which seems to be pitched at nearly any level you care to think of to prevent it happening by management.

Christ, 3%, salary sacrifice for a laptop and to be allowed to buy (not be given) your own membership to the Qantas Club is nothing in comparision to what these professionals give in good will to QF.

Go back to your rocking chair.

AWB

[lame1]

Is alan and his mates likely to get another 50% plus bonus again?.GT suggests we defer our agreement for 12 month and basically have a pay freeze whilst those at the top make stupid decisions

[Ngineer]

13. On the same problem Qantas also once attracted passengers with its safety record but as airline safety in general has improved the ability to charge that premium is disappearing.

Without our safety record then what exactly do we have?? Those of us who actually are working frontline on aircraft are seeing an increase in outsourcing, an increase in incidents, a decline in the way our customers (and the public) perceive our product, and a subsequent decline in market share. It is happening as we speak, whilst "armchair critics" and management teams speculate. Can you please state exactly how you came to the conclusion that safety "in general" has improved???

BTW, I believe another Engine incident has occurred. If you read Ben Sandilands then you maybe aware of it.:ok:

[The Green Goblin]

I know exactly what is going on with management.

They all sit around the boardroom late at night whispering sweet nothings to each other about the forecast growth of aviation in China and the Asian region in general.

They then ask each other how can they capitalize on the growth and grow the company into these regions. A few ideas are thrown around, they slap each other on the backs, clink the grange glasses together and work out how to implement them.

Suddenly Asian growth becomes a religion (akin to global warming) and anyone who disagrees with the plan is shot down. If you're not with us, you're against us! The entire upper management become focussed on chasing growth opportunities in Asia. Jetstar Asia was this vehicle, but hell, it isn't doing what was intended (making money). Meet Qantas Asia.

The problem is while chasing the golden fleece in Asia, they have dropped the ball back home. The Asian airlines are getting stronger with better products, and if Qantas does not look out, they will be on home turf very soon.

Moral of the story? You need a solid base to grow from. Not only that, but do you think the Asians are going to let us gringos steal their market? HELL NO! They will fight aggressively on all fronts.

JB has the right idea, work with partners in different regions and focus on home. That way your airlines will compliment each other.

Qantas need to tuck their shirt in back home before they try to take on Asia. If they had any brains they would be looking at ways to work with Singapore Airlines or Cathay Pacific. Of course, management are way to arrogant for that. They think they are better and smarter than everyone else! If JB ties up with Singapore Airlines (and it will happen) It will be game over Qantas.

777s now, retire the 747s and use the 787s for growth/partnerships in Asia and the thinner international routes back home.

[Chadzat]

Thats all well and good GT, but would you care to justify your comment on sunrise that what pilots and engineers are fighting for will cost $300 million per year? You didnt get time to do it on TV, but you have plenty of time to reply on this forum.

I emailed you a few week ago over a comment in The West about pilots earning $500,000 and while you replied to my question with some very good points, you didnt really answer it. As you well know, the uninformed public will take notice of figures. If they dont really know what staff travel or other benefits really mean, they do know about $$$. So to quote unrepresentative figures is akin to misreporting. I dont want to harp on about the 500k article because that is old news now, but your comment about the cost of the union demands is in the same vein. If you want to quote figures, make sure they are the truth.

[aussie027]

Just a small point....
I noticed Geoff mentioned the Qantas FF program several times in his response and the fact that the airline is going to reward people more for flying than not in earning points.
The enormous cost to the airlines in letting people earn points by spending on everything from groceries to rental cars to cruises has cost many of them dearly.
This issue was raised approx 10-15 yrs ago in the USA, as Geoff mentioned history repeating itself.
Carriers found themselves with FF seats being taken up by people who had never been on 1 of their planes in the past having gotten points via every other means other than flying frequently with that carrier.
This basic concept of giving airline pax who had flown with the carrier a few extra points for staying at hotels and renting cars with the carriers partner businesses on their trips was good in the beginning but then it spiraled out of control and denigrated into the situation Ive mentioned above, no flying at all but still earning points.
US airline FF schemes alone were/are worth Billions in equivalent fares to every airline and have long been considered a liability to the carrier by the very managements whose poor decisions/greed in letting them grow and morph into what they have become came back to bite them, hard.
Billions in lost revenues, and managements world wide are penny pinching on nickel and dime stuff.
Maybe all airline managements need to look at changing this point earning situation instead of screwing current point holders over with low FF seating availability, blackout dates etc etc
They wont though, the Genie is too far out of the bottle now and everyone is doing it this way so there is more than likely no going back. :ugh:

[buggerme]

Hi Geoff, On sunrise you stated that Qantas engineers were amongst the highest paid engineers in the world, how did you come by that? Off the top of my head i would say that the average lame earns approximately 110k to 120k which includes shift loading, of course there will be some who earn more, is this based on the strong Aussie dollar? The way i look at it, it's disposable income that matters most, if i was living in a country where housing prices were cheap and cost of living was a lot less you wouldn't expect a high wage, but you have to look at the median wage of other trades ie. plumbers carpenters etc. [ who if make a mistake is not usually life threatening ], take away the shift loading, and you'll find that we are behind. Shift loading brings our wage up, but as has been said before how would you like to have to work nightshift , public holidays, weekends etc. also we find it difficult to take leave on these days as 90% of the time it's rejected due insufficient manpower. In my opinion we work very hard in very trying circumstances with all the obstacles [company made ] put in front of us to get the aircraft out safely, and i for one would forget any payrise if as a trade off we could get rid of all the idiots that are trying to pull Qantas engineering down and then let us get back to doing what we do best and return us to the world's best and safest.
Rant over.

[Clipped]

GT, you and I agree unequivocally on one point. Qantas MISMANAGEMENT.

Here is our dilemma. They exist in denial and think they are doing a sterling job and reward themselves appropriately.

Loss of market share is the fault of our cost base. That is, we are all paid too much. Unions, are bad for the airline business.

We have a management team and Board who will relentlessly spend millions and millions and millions of dollars on consultants, lawyers, accountants, spin doctors, physcologists and alternative workforces to crucify their own employees rather than work with them. Employees who, in my lengthy time with this airline, do an outstanding job day in, day out. Employees who have great pride in the airline, have reasonable expectations of a career and are bewildered by the antics going on from above.

A toxic environment, you bet.

[blueloo]

The damage you have done to your name is irreparable.

That video interview was inexcusable, inaccurate and worst of all dishonest.

You have no integrity. Period.

[bandit2]

GT,
Maybe we need to look Before Alan, ie Dixon who made the decision of NO 777's? Who decided of changing A/C brand after how many years? Who's cronies have sold off & outsourced anything they could get their hands on? You mention the FF program, & how profitable it is, do you remember who wanted to sell off the FF program just before the end off their reign? Oh, whom would have got a bigger bonus if that sale went through by the way! As all bonus's I' m sure work, off yearly profit. Who decided on the A180? What a debacle. I wonder how many kick backs were involved their? I know that was another era, but the current management are using the same old excuses on how tough the airline business is! But you tell me, WHO are still getting the F&/);@G bonuses & huge payrises! They never go through the bull>}#t we go through for 3% plus some icing on our cake. Absolute max totalling 5%. Sorry heard it all before!:ugh:

[bandit2]

GT
OH by the way the travelling public NEVER tore down EOC & Sydney heavy maint! You tell me how that has bit us in the ar$e & continues too. Just ask the pax stranded in SIN last week & while your up there zip over to BKK, ask those loyal Australians what they think also. By the way, they shut down that engine as a precautionary measure????

[life_sentence_as_AME]

bandit2
Maybe we need to look Before Alan, ie Dixon who made the decision of NO 777's? Who decided of changing A/C brand after how many years? Who's cronies have sold off & outsourced anything they could get their hands on?I think you can look a bit further back and find that Strong sold everything that wasn't bolted down and if I am not mistaken , also started the outsourcing trend with the 747 landing gear and wheels. I was in H245 when the first of the outsourced MLGs were fitted. I stood there beside the engineering middle management of the time listening to them complain about how the gear looked like "a bright yellow Christmas tree" as almost everything that could be machined to oversize had been (hence the yellow paint). Within a year or so they discovered components that had been machined out of limits, causing a run of inspections and gear changes. Also there was a 747-300 (EBW maybe) broke a MLG in Rome during taxi, bashed an engine into the ground as a result.

As much as I would like to blame Dixon for starting this process I think the prize goes to Strong.

l.s.a.A.

[Shark Patrol]

GT,

Some points I would like to take issue with you on:

Steve, this industry is at the crossroads as we are seeing a tsunami of LCCS in Asia and Australia and I am deeply concerned about the affects of AirAsia on our industry in Australia. It has seat mile costs of approximately 2.5c ASK and Australians are flying with it in droves! How do you stop that? I don’t think you can!


There is one entity that has the power to stop this and that is the Australian government (whoever may be in power at the time). I do not buy Australian Aviation any more because of its pro-airline stance in past times, but I would be very interested to read an article by you that asks the responsible minister at what point they would step in to limit access by foreign carriers (particularly LCCs) if they were hurting Australian companies, and potentially putting Australian jobs at risk. This is very relevant, I feel, since Joyce continues to cry poor (although we won't know how justified that will be for a while) and Virgin are likely to announce a full year loss. If you are indeed a critic of deregulation, let's see an article about this point.

Question is, how do we achieve all of this in the current toxic environment? Perhaps you can lead the way and say roll over the EBA for 12 months and let’s reinvent Qantas. Challenge Joyce to reinvent travel! You would have every Australian behind you!

As a QF employee, i totally agree that the current industrial climate is the most toxic I have experienced, but ask where the fault lies. Management are short-timers at best, out to make a buck and move on. Frontline staff look to the long term and want a long career in a company they are proud of. The current toxic climate is the result of the airline devaluing their staff and waging a war of intimidation against them. Several years ago, all unions voted a voluntary wage freeze on a promise that we would be looked after when the situation improved. When it did ... nothing! Qantas asked long-haul pilots to find 8 million dollars worth of savings to avoid pilot redundancies. We did and they gave it all (plus another 3 million) to Dixon!! The staff have had enough, Geoff. That's why there is such a toxic environment. If we were to follow your suggestion and roll over again, they would sincerely thank us, set up another offshore operation and then make a lot of us redundant. That is what is at stake here. We all know it, but the travelling public don't, and don't care. That is why we wish journalists in your position could put the real points across to the public and not the politically easy "militant" union bashing stories, like yours that was aired last week.

Frontline staff have seen the QF premium product slashed through cost-cutting for the last 10 years. I'm sure our management knows that it would take a lot of money to fix this, and they just find it easier to attack the staff to make continued savings because with slanted journalism depicting us as greedy, their job in getting rid of us (rather than fixing the product) becomes so much easier.

Sure Qantas isn’t Japan Airlines but if it wasn’t for the FF program and Jetstar it would be in lousy shape and that is a cold hard sobering fact!


Geoff, did you read the story about Jetstar only making money on its inflight snacks and not making money on seat sales? The "amazing" business that is Jetstar is a smokescreen set up to undercut mainline and wreck T&Cs of Qantas staff. Qantas flights continue to be handed over to Jetstar - probably San Francisco will be the next destination now that Qantas has abandoned the route. Ask Alan Joyce what the true financial position of Jetstar would be if all of the cross-subsidization costs provided by mainline were taken out of the equation. Jetstar WILL succeed at all costs because there is too much corporate ego involved to let it fail. How can QF mainline be struggling to turn a buck when CX, SQ and EK are all making healthy profits - none of whom are LCCs.

Geoff, QF staff at the moment are afraid that the "end game" is in sight. We appeal to you and to any other jounralists reading this thread to not merely buy the Qantas spin, but to provide a balanced account of what's happening and ask QF management the hard questions. If you don't do so, when the roo disappears and you ask yourselves how this could have happened, just look at yourselves in the mirror!

[denabol]

Qantas is being murdered. The only hope must be in a board room or investor revolt over where this is all headed.

Another depressing but I fear well founded article here too.

Dual dangers hanging over Qantas, as we know it | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/05/22/dual-dangers-hanging-over-qantas-as-we-know-it/)

[AnQrKa]

ngineer

This may give you some insight into to how much safer air travel has become.

The skillset from previous gen aircraft are no longer needed and salary levels will adjust accordingly.

[chockchucker]

The skillset from previous gen aircraft are no longer needed


Yeah, right! Until everything goes pear-shaped like QF32 or US Airways in the Hudson!



Ask anybody who survived those incidents whether or not "the skillset from previous gen aircraft are no longer needed"?:ugh:



Not something you can flick on with a switch. Another thing Beancounters can never come to grips with. Aviation professionals are not paid for what they do, so much as what they know. And how they apply that knowlege and experience when the excriment hits the fan.


Something that time and again, history has proven, separates the men from the boys (or the women from the girls :ok:).

[breakfastburrito]

For the record AirAsia CASK's are not 2.5c. Their latest (2010 Q4 presentation (http://www.airasia.com/iwov-resources/my/common/pdf/AirAsia/IR/AA_4Q10_Analyst_Presentation.pdf)) lists them as (US$)

MAA (Malysian AirAsia) 3.81 cents per Km
TAA (Thai AirAsia) 4.55 cents per Km
IAA (Indonesion AirAsia) 4.86 cents per Km

It should also be noted that AirAsia seat config for an A330-300 is 377 pax vs QF 297. Therefore a significant component of the difference in CASK's is directly attributable to the fact tha AirAsia has 22% more seat Kilometers per hour than QF. ie If they both had identical fixed costs, then AirAsia's cost base is automatically ~20% lower by virtue of a higher seat density. Exchange rate effects of the high AUD will also significantly skew the numbers.

The difference between AirAsia & QF based solely on ticket cost is not an apples for apples comparison. This is further magnified by the upfront "all in upfront" cost of QF vs the low "upfront+ancillary charge" model of AirAsia. Only once a flight has been completed can the cost of the travel be directly compared. Of course, the vast majority of travellers fail to do this, and are effectively duped as to the true "all in" cost of the travel. In essence, the LCC model is like mobile phone contract, very complex and very difficult to make direct comparisons between plans.

That said, if the paying public wish to fly longhaul in a high density configuration for a lower cost, this is their choice. I find it hard to believe that this market will become the bulk of the longhaul market. Travelling in a full 377 config A330 would be an uncomfortable experience for more than a few hours for all of the most price sensative travellers. Repeat business will be a significant challange.

[FlyForFun1]

Mr Thomas,
Thank you for taking the time to reply to this forum...
We may be biased in our opinions, but there are many members here who work in the industry you report on, who have coal-face experience of decisions, implementations & ramifications of management's practices.

It is a difficult job to be an objective journalist, made even more so when you stand up as an 'expert' on a particular topic in front of a large audience. That objectivity will always be questioned by both sides of an argument - and rightly so. You are a dis-interested commentator trying to say in less than 20 seconds what they have been living for 20 years. Yes, perhaps a 4C's piece on these issues is required - 40 minutes should be able to balance the story properly. And if that fails, there is always Media Watch....

For the record, I disagree with most of your current stance. If there is great danger from asian based LCC's, supporting the erosion of jobs & conditions at home only makes it easier for foreign companies to set up here. A disgruntled workforce is not the way to an efficient business. I hope this is not what you want.

It is interesting to note that some of the Asian LCC's we fear seem to have been started and run by our own? So who is really driving this fear? And to what end?

Yes, the travelling public no longer hold any brand loyalty, and will change airlines to save $10. But that is because there is no brand differentiation now, its all "Fly me, I'm cheaper!"
I have always thought it would be interesting if you asked the general public which would they buy, a seat on an low cost airline for $100, or a seat that costs $110 but with the extra $10 having been publically stated as going to proper maintenance and local safety initiatives? Remember, flying is still a concern for many people, it's still a possible way to suffer and die in an ugly manner with 300 new friends! Qantas successfully promoted their safety record for years, why have they stopped? Too many near misses caused by failures in maintenance?

It was pleasing to read how in the past you were warning management about future dangers.

Perhaps there is hope for you yet.

[lamem]

We did that a few EBA's ago remember. We forgo a payrise to help them out. Next EBA they thanked us with one right up the ar*e, no lube. Sorry GT we wont fall for that again.

[Short_Circuit]

GT
From one aviation expert to another, you are badly misinformed. :ooh:
SC

[howyoulikethat]

Come on boys/girls...some Qf Ff journo speaks his mind to earn another jolly...who gives a.....most people ya talk to never saw it anyway!Stay focussed!

[Groaner]

Mild comment: FF programs make a lot of money for airlines (including QF), even with pax who accumulated points from credit cards or whatever. The CC provider had to purchase the FF points in the first place, from the airline, in advance, paying cash.

The pax takes up a seat (effectively a standby seat in most cases due to the availability restrictions) - effective cost (including likely loss of revenue from additional pax) close to zero.

A very lucrative business indeed. I don't begrudge the pax his/her seat at all.

Airlines (including QF) increasingly use program status rather than point balance as a loyalty reward. Maybe the curried ferret in the lounge makes it all worthwhile.

[Going Boeing]

Mr Thomas,

If you are genuinely interested in providing balanced reporting of the current issues that affect the industry perhaps you could use you extensive resources to research the following issues and report back via media or this forum:

1 (a). Qantas is moving Jetstar personnel around on QF services in lieu of their own to reduce costs attributable to Jetstar,

1 (b). When Jetstar aircraft are refuelled, sometimes the cost is billed to Qantas International (has been previously reported on this forum so maybe a PPRuNer can supply you with evidence),

2. Olivia Wirth recently stated on Sunrise that QF mainline is continuing to recruit pilots. This is a blatant lie but no journalist has questioned it or attempted to put the record straight,

3. Olivia Wirth recently on the ABC:
SIMON SANTOW: "Are there bar charts that are circulated amongst pilots that show who took what, when and who didn't need to take it?"
OLIVIA WIRTH: "Absolutely not."
Again a blatant lie but no journalist has questioned it or attempted to put the record straight (I can send you a copy of one of my fuel bar chart if you want to use it to confront her),

4. Outsourcing maintenance (the most important issue) - Alan Joyce has often said that over 90% of maintenance is done in Australia. A very careful selection of words as he avoids saying that most of it is not done by Qantas staff, instead it is outsourced to companies such as Forstaff (Avalon) and JHAS (Melbourne) - Why don't journalists ask for a complete breakdown of where the various aircraft types are serviced for HM "C" & "D" checks as well as major component overhaul. They probably won't give it to you because your scrutiny would subsequently prove that they are lying (refer to Steve Purvinas' letter for more detail),

5. RR engine overhaul - your arguments about the financial advantages of outsourcing engine overhaul as the B747 fleet shrinks are valid - except for 1. they recently decided to keep the majority of the fleet operating for a number of years and 2. the failure rate of the QF B747 RB211-524G-T engines is currently over 3 times the failure rate when the engines were overhauled "in-house". QF management refuse to admit that they've made a mistake, so they are about to introduce a range of procedural changes to pilot operations to make the engines "last", including use of idle reverse thrust on landing (once they convince James Strong, QF Board member & CEO at the time of the QF1 accident). The engines are being treated with "kid gloves" just so management can save face.

Ansett was starved of cash by News Corp (Murdoch) and TNT (Abeles) and was left a basket case that Air NZ was unable to financially turn around. What is happening in Qantas now has so many parallels to Ansett 15-20 years ago and all the staff and supporters of this national icon are worried about whether it will last another 5 years - if the Australian media have such great insight in the would of business, why aren't you screaming as loud as you can so that institutional shareholders will listen and replace the QF Board & senior management? Oh to have true airline managers like Yates, Ward, Menadue, etc.................................

[FGD135]

2. Olivia Wirth recently stated on Sunrise that QF mainline is continuing to recruit pilots. This is a blatant lie but no journalist has questioned it or attempted to put the record straight

Err, I think she just said "Qantas is continuing to recruit ...".

She didn't actually say the word "pilots" in the sentence.

[Keg]

She didn't actually say the word "pilots" in the sentence.


Yes, that's a plausible deniability for Olivia. Given a discussion about Qantas mainline pilots though it's a line that crew see straight through and further disengages an already hacked off workforce.

Every time I see references to 26% or other comments by Olivia it just hardens my resolve.

[QFdude]

FGD135 the quote from OW was:

".....we are continuing to hire pilots into Qantas Mainline...."

This makes it quite unequivocal......unless of course she is including Jetconnect.

[Slippery_Pete]

Geoffrey...

You can write about how you have previously called Qantas management on bad decisions (such as failure to buy the 777) until the cows come home.

It doesn't matter.

The fact remains that you went on national television and told millions of Australians (the people who will ultimately cause Qantas to fail or succeed) that Qantas Engineers want $3-400 million extra per year (which equates to a increase of at least $187,500 per engineer per year).

I am a senior pilot at a competing airline and Qantas' success (or lack thereof) is of no consequence to me, but I'm still disgusted by your piece on Sunrise.

YOU HAVE NO CREDIBILITY until you correct the above lie. And I will, like others, refuse to buy Australian Aviation until you have the balls to publicly admit your error and the massive damage it may have done to the cause of our world class Australian engineers and pilots.

[gwm59]

What was said by GT is a disgrace - I ponder whether he is on the Ch7 payroll given their linkage with the West Australian Newspaper

[Taildragger67]

Just a quickie on GT's point 5 (from his first email):

The public will not pay what the engineers and pilots deserve.

Yes they will. They already do, frequently. QF is often not the cheapest option on international routes, but the flights are often running at high load factors. So the punters will pay a reasonable amount over the average.

1. Pilots

What the public would probably prefer, is that the money they pay, go towards paying pilot salaries, rather than making Mr Joyce the best-paid airline CEO on earth, or having Mr Dixon's tax bill paid by his erstwhile employer.

For what it's worth, figures in the paper in Singapore recently had a middle-ranking SQ 777 captain pulling around SGD 250k a year. That level of compensation could hardly be described as very low. So if SQ, the nemesis of QF management, can pay an average wide-body skipper that sort of money, it means QF can and should pay at least that. What does the SQ CEO get? Or LH's CEO?

2. Engineers

As GT later mentioned, QF is getting some A380 heavy work done in Frankfurt, by LH. Since when did Germany become a 'low cost' jurisdiction? If QF (through LH) is willing to pay the wages demanded by German engineers, why will it not pay Australian engineers? Maybe even get some work in?

On GT's point about LH Tek becoming a 787 COE, why could QF HM not do likewise as it will already have a 'critical mass' from its own order book? There will be plenty of 787s in this part of the world to create a market.

It's not all about the wages of the blokes with the spanners.

Had that awful new safety vid rammed down me yesterday, but one line from Travolta which stuck out: "there's no-one I would rather have at the controls, than a Qantas pilot". To me, and 21mil other Australians, that means not a Jetconnect pilot, not a Jetstar pilot, not a labour-hire company pilot, but a QANTAS pilot, flying a QANTAS aircraft.

[Anthill]

The public will not pay what the engineers and pilots deserve.


The public do not set Pilot's salaries. Management does. So it is managment that doesn't want to pay Pilots and Engineers what we deserve.

[neville_nobody]

And don't forget that the Singapore captain hasn't paid for any of his flying training

[Management In Charge]

managment that doesn't want to pay Pilots and Engineers what we deserve.

So the truth is revealed I see?
You state ‘management doesn't want to pay Pilots and Engineers what we deserve’. And what quantum process or mathematical formula do or would you use to decide what you are worth? Do you think that you of all people would or should set remuneration scales? And if so, based upon what process?
If Pilots and Engineers were paid what they think they deserve then an airline would go broke within 48 hours. That is a fact.
Management has Master’s Degrees, accountancy skills, an actual education, solid and robust business acumen, business smarts and an ability to ‘think outside the square’. That is why we set the pay scales and you always comply. As painful as it may be to some individuals the fact is this – Management is the mother, frontline staff is the suckling child and our breast milk is your salary. We decide how much to feed you because we know how much you actually need. It is a simple yet accurate equation which cannot be understood by a suckling infant. The management team that I belong to cares for its infants needs, but know that they must never be overfed. This will not occur in my lifetime or even in another. Now let me pass you a pacifier and allow you to go back to sleep.

Sweet Dreams
The Boardroom Beckons

[stewser89]

Ah poetry and satire. :D

Seriously

What exactly are the requests that are being asked for by QF pilots because unless alternative are offered Journos and the public are going to chew up the lines expounded by aviation writers and Qantas. Remember that there is a whole crony of P.R people employed by Qantas.

[assasin8]

That last post was the funniest thing I've ever read...:}

[Worrals in the wilds]

And what quantum process or mathematical formula do or would you use to decide what you are worth?

Well of course quantum physics is concerned with the study of very small things (and cat survivability, but we're not talking about Schrodinger or Olivia :}) so it may be the right term to use when discussing Qantas pay rises...

Any company's management answers to the shareholders, who are strangely absent from your analogy. If you're the Mother, maybe they're the ones who...nah, that'll get me banned.
Do you think that you of all people would or should remuneration scales?
The management team that I belong to cares for its infants needs,
P.S. Your grammar needs work. I only point this out because you are ostensibly a manager.

[L Riding hood]

Management in charge you defiantly sound like the current management type making the pathetic decisions at QF that will ultimately will be the downfall of this airline :ugh:
I think if I where to classify you lot as an animal I think you would be a hyena an animal that skulks around and eat the left over scraps and if you had half the chance you would eat your own suckling infant instead of fighting to preserve there life. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif

[Bumpfoh]

nah, that'll get me banned.

Is that hat has happend to our "friend"?:E

[Management In Charge]

Management in charge you defiantly sound like the current management type making the pathetic decisions at QF that will ultimately will be the downfall of this airline :ugh:
I think if I where to classify you lot as an animal I think you would be a hyena an animal that skulks around and eat the left over scraps and if you had half the chance you would eat your own suckling infant instead of fighting to preserve there life. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif

I hope you are posting blogs either before or after shift, not during ??

[L Riding hood]

Unlike yourself I don’t piss away shareholder money

[Worrals in the wilds]

I hope you are posting blogs either before or after shift, not during ??
Believe it or not people still get rostered days off. In these modern times they're not always on Sunday.

[Tankengine]

Some of us actually fly aircraft for a living, so no pprune at work,unlike "management" types.:ugh:

[blueloo]

Management has Master’s Degrees, accountancy skills, an actual education, solid and robust business acumen, business smarts and an ability to ‘think outside the square’.

So do lots of the pilots and engineers.

Yet we don't phuck up. Whats your excuse?

[Worrals in the wilds]

We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!
Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rats’ feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar

Shape without form, shade without colour,
Paralysed force, gesture without motion;

Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death’s other Kingdom
Remember us—if at all—not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The stuffed men.

T.S. Elliot, The Hollow Men.
Posted before, but still has relevance. Stuffed is the key word, and not in the way Elliot meant but using the Australian definition :}...
Stuffed. Totally Stuffed. No matter how many PR poppets can jump on the intramanet with shiny new usernames... still stuffed.

[life_sentence_as_AME]

Management In Charge
If Pilots and Engineers were paid what they think they deserve then an airline would go broke within 48 hoursIf management was paid what they actually deserved, there would be enough "breast milk" to feed the rest of the company what they think they deserve.

If management was paid what they actually deserved, the rest of us probably wouldn't push so hard for so much. After all you are our "mother" and we are just following your example.

If management was paid what they actually deserved, our profit last year would have been 10% - 20% higher.

I hope you are posting blogs either before or after shift, not during ??QF management (our "mother") must also be a communist as pprune.org has been :mad: and can't be accessed on our excellent (rubbish, slow, out dated, unreliable) computer system... Unless, of course, you can think further 'outside the square' than the manager (mother, communist... you choose) who felt threatened enough to have it :mad:.

l.s.a.A.

[bandit2]

Management in Charge,
Obviously you`ve posted that outburst as a `G` up. You can`t be that seriously brainwashed. The whole mother was interesting though. Most mothers give their infant`s enough to survive eg above inflation! What`s inflation at now 3.3% I think? What are you embeciles offering 3%!!!!!!! You idiots get into management because you can`t handle the real world.
I did hear a certain story about a young up & coming management want-to-be that told his leading hand that the gas generator fairings were installed before an engine run. Yet low & behold during the post run inspections guess what? The fairings were never installed. There the managers we`re dealing with.

[MUNT]

Satire is lost on so many :rolleyes:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

for those still interested......


Hey Geoff,

I’m glad we got a few things off our chests and clearly I have used my writings to not only give you a better understanding of where the LAMEs are at but also to outline our concerns and claims to our members and others in the industry. I’m no expert on Low Cost Carriers and the global battle going on between the airlines, I won’t pretend to be able to tackle those issues you have raised. My initial email was not about that, it was a response to your unfair attack on Qantas workers on Sunrise that was not properly researched and extremely one sided. As you are aware the episode has been posted on an industry website and I think it is fair to say that my feelings are replicated universally from those in the industry. You’ve asked me a few questions and touched on matters that I am however extremely well placed to respond to, I will do that now and leave you with one final question to close this affair.


Dot point 3 - There is no way that I am a Qantas mimic as you constantly say – hardly! The fact is simply this. LH Lufthansa Technik, HACEO and Singapore Airlines facilities are world class and used by airlines across the globe. If you have serious concerns about their facilities why not name them? You would be hard pressed to question the maintenance record of airlines such as Cathay Pacific and Lufthansa.

I’m sure you haven’t worked in these facilities and have no qualification to describe them as world class. Just because an MRO that is selling a product describes themselves as world class or Qantas, who use them repeat the same, matters not. They have a vested interest in telling people how good they are. I did name them in my original email to you. I gave you examples of real life mistakes they have made on Qantas aircraft. I told you why they are not world class by outlining the LAME/AME ratios and drew on a damning report issued by Qantas’s own Quality assurance department against the Singaporean facility. Of course Cathay and Lufthansa use these facilities but I have not attacked their (the airlines) maintenance record, just the facilities they use to sell services to others. What happens is this, Haeko have a number of bays to carry out Heavy Maintenance checks. Some are reserved exclusively for Cathay aircraft that cycle through the hangars, the LAMEs who work on them are equally as skilled as an Aussie who works a Qantas aircraft. The LAME/AME ratios are also not too bad because it is constant work. Next in line come the other regular customers, the LAMEs who work there are knowledgeable but have to share that knowledge across many different variants that the customers bring in. Subsequently the licences are spread thinner and the ratio suffers. Finally come those who bring in work on an adhoc basis, Qantas being one of them. To work a Qantas aircraft they train the bare minimum, quality suffers and so does safety. That’s how an aircraft gets released with 3 of its 4 engines bolted on incorrectly. I hope you understand this a little better now and in future support the Australian product.


Dot point 4 - You say: “Qantas has said that it does and will not have enough A380s in their fleet to justify HM on this aircraft type. Qantas will ultimately have 20 A380s. Lufthansa on the other hand have 8 in service and 7 on order. Please do not support Qantas statements about aircraft numbers to justify maintenance facilities knowing that Lufthansa can do it with less planes than Qantas.” This reasoning is simply not correct and you know it. As everyone in the industry knows LH Technik is the world’s largest aircraft engineering business and it has set itself up as an A380 service centre for a host of airlines regardless of how many A380s they have. Which is why it will be - and is advertising as such - a 787 maintenance facility when it has not ordered one 787!! Steve, your point is a distortion of the facts which possibly raises questions about other items that you highlight.

My statement is spot in. The numbers in each fleet are correct, I’m assuming you have a different view than many Australian LAMEs (the real experts) and I have. Lufthansa can set themselves up as a maintenance provider as can Qantas. I wonder what could be a more saleable product of Qantas than their Engineering services. They used to carry out Heavy Maintenance on their own fleet and the aircraft of many other companies. Until recently, they were even overhauling aircraft engines for NASA. If Lufthansa can do it, so can we. The problem is that that reporters who don’t really know the industry have a distorted view about Lufthansa Technik and what they provide. It is not the case that their facilities in Bulgaria, China, Malta and the Philippines are teeming with on time bespectacled Germans who live and breathe aircraft maintenance. They are just rebadged local facilities utilised because of both their location and convenient labour laws. The good Lufthansa Technik name is placed on the hangar door to confuse customers and bystanders into thinking that a precision operation is underway within.

LT also provide Line Maintenance services to others, so did Qantas until recently. In case you weren’t attuned to the fact yet, Qantas are getting out of maintenance and we think their logic behind this is flawed. On the Melbourne tarmac my services were sold by Qantas to work on Cathay, Malaysian, Thai, Polar, Evergreen, Lauda, Garuda, Singapore, British, Air NZ, Freedom, Emirates, Air China, China Southern, China Eastern, Olympic, Alitalia, Vietnam and without reviewing my log books, most likely a dozen others. The income generated from contract work paid for the entire wage bill of the Engineers in my department. All of the contracts were ditched. This income allowed us to service the entire Qantas Long Haul operation through the base for free and people are now asking us to review the way we work to save that same operation.

Don’t think the contracts were lost because of uncooperative unions. Qantas used to charge Air NZ $600 for an A320 transit with two Engineers supplied. Qantas approached our union and asked if we could change the way we worked so they could reduce the price and keep the work. We agreed that this work could be done with one man, so long as the equipment allowed it to be done safely. This was arranged and the price was reduced to $295 per transit. 12 months later Qantas put the price back up to $600 for one man and the contract was lost. Now Qantas don’t mind urinating in the pockets of their workers. As all the profitable contracts were going down the tube, management were arranging meetings with our members where it was explained that they were doing all they could to win contract work. We knew this wasn’t the case and our suspicions were confirmed in Aviation Week in November 2010 when Chris Nassenstein said this about third party work - We are not looking for any at the moment, though. The ditching of contracts started four years ago, well before our last dispute when Singapore went. I was made redundant because of it. Again, if Lufthansa can do third party work, so can we. At least we expect to work on our own aircraft and that position should be supported by every Australian.


Point 5A - Steve your claims regarding the 737s are at odds with my engineering sources and also Qantas’ so I am not sure where that leaves us. Can you produce the list of the 500 defects?? Perhaps you can post it on PPrune?

Yes I can. Our office are converting the hand writing documents as we speak but it will take a week or so as it is extensive. Of course your sources are different than mine and Qantas are in continual denial. My sources are the LAMEs who were up there and reported the maintenance errors in the first place. Just so you can understand it a bit more before they are posted. A few Qantas LAMEs were up there overviewing the operation. As they walked around inspecting things they were on the spot to have all the errors corrected. They jotted them all down though as a report so formal paperwork could be submitted to make sure these errors did not re-occur. The list was given to the manager of the outsourced aircraft and the list was later found in the bin. This is why Qantas will claim that they have no record of the problems.


Point 5B - With regard to the 90 defects I think in the end only 6 were confirmed as of Malaysian origin –which they deny - but regardless six is not acceptable I agree and I understand QF is not using them anymore.

Six is the figure that were undeniably originating from the overseas facility. The other 84 were also most likely things that were either overlooked or mistakes by that facility but in many cases you can suspect but don’t have 100% confirmation that this is the case. The fact is the plane left in a serviceable state and had 90 defects when it returned.


Point 6 - You say that you don’t expect all your claims to be met but why include claims that will be ridiculed by the media. Not just by me but many others. Problem is just one silly claim in 28 can crucify you even if the other 27 are really valid and some clearly are.

Claims can always be twisted but there is an expectation that a person in the media will seek more than one source to confirm what they are being told. Qantas are crowing on about 28.6% wage claims over 3 years, this is being repeated by members of the press despite the fact it is a made up figure. You said that our claims would cost them $300-$400 million a year. That’s 250k per Engineer. I am just extremely concerned that you would say something like that, particularly after I made contact with you a couple of years ago with similar concerns.

So I just have one question out of this, I think you will have a few eyes also gazing your way for a response because it is the question on everyone’s lips. Why did you report on matters based on information Qantas have put out there without contacting either the Pilot or LAME unions beforehand to verify their accuracy?

Kind Regards
Steve Purvinas
ALAEA
Federal Secretary

[SRM]

Hey Geoffrey,
I dont mean to be rude, but what aviation qualifications do you actually hold?

SRM

[CaptCloudbuster]

Steve, you are a credit to your Profession and we (Engineers and Pilots) are lucky to have you taking the time to detail the issues so coherently.

I for one am VERY interested in the matters you highlight.

Over to you Mr GT....

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I'm just saying what I am sure a lot of us are thinking. I'm fortunate enough to have been elected to a position that provides my family an income and me time in an office to gather the info and put it out there.

[The Black Panther]

...and while you choose to occupy this position Steve it will always be yours. You are doing a top job in my opinion.

[airtags]

good reply Steve - well done.

Rule 1 is check the facts and verify.
Rule 2 is offer a balanced argument and.,
Rule 3 is don't just accept what a govt/company/PR hack says or writes.
(Rule 4 is don't let ego hosts run the segment)

GT - you do need to justify why you did not check the claims. - Perhaps deadline pressures?? / lost laptop and phone?? / - at the very least offer an explanation or retract the statements and then let's put the shabby segment behind and move on.

The test for GT will be how he performs on the next one! - so here's a tip - Don't take the outputs of Olivia's three ring circus for anything but uniformed spin unless they are tested and verified.
Ring Purvinas or Jackson or even just get a Pprune name and ask here.

There is absolutely no excuse for denting your cred twice.

AT

[skylarker]

QANTAS Survival - Australian Aviation May 11 (http://issuu.com/airlinehubbuzz/docs/qantas_airline_survival_aviationmagmay11)

[stewser89]

So when ever a political journalist pases comment do you hear people demanding to know his political qualifications (if there is such a thing)?

The fact is that Journalists specializes in certain areas and recruit sources to feed them information without necessarily being a qualified whatever, its how I believe the industry works. Arn't we burning t he strawman here. Even if GT had an ATPL and years of experience and he said similar things you still would burn him.

the point is both print media and especially tv is geared towards sensualised soundbites.

[amos2]

Well, I gotta tell you Steve, your'e post #187 bothers me!

[JETTRONIC]

Good response Steve. GT you’re an idiot. I got to say though that after reading QF’s latest offer, well it stinks and they can shove it. Think they can do better. Also, why was the confirmed long service trip canned?

[limelight]

Skylarker,

Good reference article, but how the hell can they come to that conclusion ?

You cannot have a profitable airline without investment. Blame staff/unions etc, the public want new, clean aircraft. No public = no revenue.

Where are the shareholders to vote this mob out?

[1me]

Well, I gotta tell you Steve, your'e post #187 bothers me!
amos2.. why is that?

[runesta]

quite amusing reading through some comments which I would consider personal attacks on Geoff because his views aren't the same as yours.
some questioned Geoff's credentials - well, what is Steve's credentials in running and managing an airline?

I have absolutely no doubt there are systemic and serious incompetence in management ranks within engineering and elsewhere but it seems both sides management and the unions are having extraordinary success in scaring passengers off from flying the very airline they work for. Of course the media, too, do their bid to the very best of their ability to sensationalise any trivial events to beat them up as near-death experiences.

Struggling to see how this is a win-win situation. But definitely a case of the tall poppy.

The reality is not too long in the near future all the jobs will disappear.

A dangerous cocktail of incompetence, cronyism, scaremongering, sensationalism - yes, this is contemporary australia! :ugh:

[TIMA9X]

With respect runesta,
cronyism, scaremongering, sensationalismThese three words fit with what I was thinking when I first saw what GT said on sunrise, it felt so contrived, deceitful and probably why this thread has been churning over the way it has. There are some very proud people on here who probably felt as cheated as I did.

Having said that, you made some good points in your last post, but I find myself still 100 % in support of the pilots and engineers, in this case it was poorly judged by GT but I am sure at the time, the PR department at Q thought they kicked a goal.

GT let his mouth run riot at a time when all is at boiling point within the ranks at Q with management. For too long (10 years) GD and now AJ have been pointing the finger at staff labor costs as the blame for all their troubles, it appeared GT didn't sense this at all, amazing for an expert aviation journalist. This thread is about what he said that morning, spin, he split the can of worms wide open for all to see.

[assasin8]

They aren't attacks on Geoff because "his views are different to ours", they are because he essentially read from the Qantas PR script! Distorted truth and reporting out of context doesn't make for factual reporting! :mad:

YES, WE ARE PI$$@D OFF! If an "aviation expert" is going to report the facts, then at least do some research and keep it balanced... It ain't rocket science... :ugh:

[1me]

runesta..

I assume that you are an outsider looking in and that is fair enough but you probably have not seen the way events have unfolded over the last 20 years or so. I may be wrong of course...

To be a Qantas Pilot or Engineer used to be held in a much higher regard by those who ran the company. A quality product and service was delivered (and still is despite the repeated attempts by successive management groups to undermine such) by highly trained and utterly professional people.

For a long while now the company has sought to systematically dismember the organisation in the pursuit of the mighty dollar.

In the not too distant past, Sydney was the epicenter of widebody heavy maintenance in Australia. We had world class people producing a world class product. The extent of our engineering expertise ranged from machining to plating to structural repairs to engine overhaul, not to mention three lines of aircraft heavy maintenance. We had contract work with other operators (Air Pacific, Air NZ, Evergreen, Polar, Asiana, Air Canada to name a few) and the RAAF and ad-hoc work was often on the menu. Our capability was second to none..

However, slowly but surely, parts of the operation were farmed off, considered unnecessary or inappropriate or uneconomical to remain in Sydney.

Now, there are no more lines of heavy maintenance in Sydney, no fitting and machining capability, no real engine maintenance facilities to speak of. Our landing gear, wheels and brakes, engine, APU and thrust reverser overhauls have been outsourced and Sydney is but a shell of it's former self. Oh, we have a you-beaut automated stores warehouse which works pretty well when we actually have parts in stock..

And yet the spirit is still there, in the people, who work day and night, 365 days of the year, rain, hail or shine to deliver a quality product.

They say you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. That may be so, but we're trying our damnedest to.


And as for SP's credentials in running and managing an airline? I can't say. All I know is that he is a highly trained Engineer with a couple of decades of experience in the industry and not some johnny-come-lately with a few new business school buzz words in his vocabulary. And let it be said that Engineers suffer fools lightly.

[JETTRONIC]

"Engineers suffer fools lightly."

Damm right.....and I've had enough:ugh:

[BaronB]

I'm sure you guys mean don't suffer fools gladly?! :)

[1me]

I'm sure you guys mean don't suffer fools gladly?! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif


Gladly or lightly.. but you are right there probably should have been a "don't" in there.. :ok:

[Redstone]

FedSec, have you had any reply from this clown?

[Collando]

Ah Geoff youve finally learnt. " Better to be silent and thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt."

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

Marauder...didn't they tell you you'd go blind? :}

Look closer! :rolleyes:

[jieunni]

Steve,

I think you forgot to mention that the Pass Mark for ALL of those Exams is 75%!

I'm not sure if there are any other professions with that requirement?

That might be a little out of context.

Would you be feeling safe if your brain surgeon had scored 75% in college? :p

[The Green Goblin]

Quote:
Steve,

I think you forgot to mention that the Pass Mark for ALL of those Exams is 75%!

I'm not sure if there are any other professions with that requirement?
That might be a little out of context.

Would you be feeling safe if your brain surgeon had scored 75% in college?

In university, all you need to do is get on the right side of 50% and it's a pass :D

[Another Number]

Now its even clearer what kind of arrangement Stokes' Seven & QANTAS have - with the current round of cutesy co-branding (Happy Birthday Jetstar animations etc).

And why GT would never retract his strategic lies ... read all about his pet project funded and cross-promoted by the Stokes' West Australian/Seven ... a series of "not necessarily voyeuristic" Cut Price Air Crash Investigations on that bastion of objectivity Today Tonight!

With huge and very welcome help from all his dearest friends.


Not bad for a second rate hobbyist middle-aged "flight sim kiddy":ok:.

[SRM]

See GT is now an expert on Volcanic Ash.

Once again I ask,what aviation qualifications has this guy got to be an aviation expert.

[stewser89]

Did anyone see him of the 7pmproject just now. Does a turbofan really reach 2000 degrees C? That seems a bit too hot, especially when its half the temperature of the sun according to Geoffrey.

[gobbledock]

Did anyone see him of the 7pmproject just now. Does a turbofan really reach 2000 degrees C? That seems a bit too hot, especially when its half the temperature of the sun according to Geoffrey.

What a Turkey. I think the only thing reaching 2000 degrees C is his underpants everytime he is offered $$$$ to post some farcical, half ar#sed non educated opinion on matters he knows very little about.
Mind you, he could be easily mistaken in his looks for another Wirthless individual that is not Wirth mentioning :E

[QFinsider]

Just how far his "support" extends through the seven network is a very interesting case study. He lacks any integrity and possesses very little knowledge.

[Roxy_Chick_1989]

Did anyone see him of the 7pmproject just now. Does a turbofan really reach 2000 degrees C? That seems a bit too hot, especially when its half the temperature of the sun according to Geoffrey.


To be fair..

Ultra hight BPR turbofans get pretty close to that in their combustion chambers.

As for half the temperature of the sun :ugh: now that is a first!:D

[stewser89]

Yep to be fair. Temperature after combustion is around 1500C to 2000C but not for very long.
Correct me if I'm wrong but they have to cool it with extra air in the flame tube. Otherwise the components would melt.

However half the sun's surface temperature is 2700C.

But i guess it sounds more dramatic if I add that. Same as planes falling out of skies (okay he didn't say this but he didn't correct it either)

[The Green Goblin]

Yep to be fair. Temperature after combustion is around 1500C to 2000C but not for very long.
Correct me if I'm wrong but they have to cool it with extra air in the flame tube. Otherwise the components would melt.

However half the sun's surface temperature is 2700C.

But i guess it sounds more dramatic if I add that. Same as planes falling out of skies (okay he didn't say this but he didn't correct it either)

That temp will literally be 'in the flame iteself'. The majority of the air developed by the compressor 2/3rds I believe is to control flame propagation. The flame is kept centrally orientated in the combustion chamber and compressed air is routed through circular openings in the walls of the combustion chamber to prevent the flame making contact with the sides.

If 2000 degrees got anywhere near the first stage of the turbine, it would be pretty safe to say there would be expensive chunks of metal vacating the jet pipe.

[Sunfish]

From memory the F404 First stage blades are in a 1500C gas stream and are operating at about 300C above their own melting point - cooled of course by film cooling from bleed air.

[The Green Goblin]

From memory the F404 First stage blades are in a 1500C gas stream and are operating at about 300C above their own melting point - cooled of course by film cooling from bleed air.

Not technically correct.

Bleed air by definition is 'bled' from the engine.

Flame propagation is controlled from excess compressor discharge. Not all the compressed air is required for combustion. In fact, most of the air developed by the compressor is used to contain the fireball within the combustion chamber.

Bleed air is bled from the compressor and used for ancillary services (Aircon packs, ice protection, pneumatic systems etc).

[Sunfish]

I'm sure you are right GG, but the air came from the compressor and was fed from inside the turbine blade through a labyrinth of tiny holes.

[The Green Goblin]

I'm sure you are right GG, but the air came from the compressor and was fed from inside the turbine blade through a labyrinth of tiny holes.

If you look at turbine engine schematics you will see of the air discharged from the compressor, some makes it's way into the combustion chamber, most diverts around the combustion intake and is re inserted at various intervals and locations for cooling.

Bleed air is tapped further upstream of compressor discharge and is routed away from the engine through various one way check valves to desired services in regulated and unregulated form.

[amos2]

Yeah! Yeah!... very impressive...I think not!
That's engines 101...very basic, straight from the manual, and easily understood by anyone on a transition or endorsement course.;)
Still, if it makes you feel good...?

[gobbledock]

Cafe Sua Da anyone?

It would appear that hcmcassclown cut and pasted from a manual while sipping on a lemon, lime and bitters at Cafe El Queero.......

Kopi Luwak anyone?

[1me]

Bleed air, or more correctly customer bleed air, is tapped off and bled from an engine at two stages of the HPC, typically 5th stage and 9th stage.This is not strictly true either. Big engines generally take bleed air off both IPC and HPC..

We're a bit off track though..

[Anthill]

hcmc

Dunno about Obie, but Amos has been around for years and has probably forgoten more than you will ever know. Does all that drivel impress anyone down at 919?

You remind me of the line from the Good Bard:

"His digits upon his member, fully gript"

;)

[amos2]

The clown has said:

"Maybe I really am a 3 time loser, maybe I really am an assclown, maybe I really am not that great after all....."

...and, I think we may all agree with that self assessment, clown! ;)

[assasin8]

Ok, ok, while we're at it... "I'm Batman!"

Doppio ristretto anyone?:cool:

[IAW]

really f**king annoying anyone?

[1me]

Doppio ristretto anyone?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/cool.gif
Now that's more like it.. :ok:

[victor two]

Just to get back to the opening post in this saga. At the risk of saying that the average lame is starting to whinge about being overworked and underpaid even more that the average airline pilot.... Just exactly how much should you guys get paid then.....assuming that are as poorly done by as you claim.
What is fair appropriate pay for a qantas lame then?
Just stick to the cash and leave the tragedy of your sad and lonely wife out of it. Even though it is amusing to hear that she lays awake at night, sobbing into her pillow as her enslaved hubby works through the cold winters night, fingers numbed by the coldness that only comes from being underpaid on $100k a year. Children, eyes rimmed with tears as they sit, fatherless, on christmas morning and open the meager presents that such a minimum wage can afford.
I think the reality is that wifey is sleeping quite well which you are on nights as she gets a break from the bleating and complaining.

Anyway - name your price boys! What is fair pay?

[victor two]

To get your money deprived minds thinking, from looking at other pilot forums, qantas and jetstar pilots will stop their complaining if they get paid $300k a year to only fly about 120 hours a year, only during the day, nothing before 8.00am, nothing after about 7.30pm, maximum of 3 days work a week, plus free family (first class) and their choice of fleet, seniority, base and guaranteed birthdays and public holidays off.

You guys are worth at least that!!!! Ue it as a base, double it and add ten percent!

[cone zone]

wow!!! who do you work for Victor two??? A manager no doubt, I bet you are very popular.

I don't work for Qantas, I work for a much smaller operator and I can tell you that would not go to Qantas because they don't pay enough!!

[assasin8]

Hey victor, what happened? Microsoft Flight Sim crashed, did it? Taking some time out while it reboots?

Who said anything about pushing for a $300000 salary? Who's whining about work being too hard? Who even mentioned the missus?:ugh:

Now, you haven't been believing all the spin that management has been pushing? Surely, you're not that gullible?:8

Ok, I'll keep this simple, so that even you can understand...

The pilots and engineers are pushing for a job security clause... It's not a guarantee of employment! It is, however, a clause that will stop the company offshoring our work!

Now, I think that's as simple an explaination as I can post... Any simpler and I'll have to get in touch with the Sesame Street team.:ok:

Todays post was brought to you by the letters D & H and by the number 1...

[ejectx3]

Ah sesame street......is there nothing it didn't teach us?

ONE management troll.. MWAHAHAHAHAH!

TWO management trolls...MWAHAHAHAHAH!!!

etc...

[1me]

Those who can; do.
Those who can't, become managers.

It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that the dribble being spouted by certain posters belies the fact that they have absolutely NFI of what LAME's do. :ugh:

[Brian Burke]

Geoff's ONLY job within the Aviation Industry (excluding Journo work) was with MMA between 1970-1972 where he was employed as a 'Dispatch Officer'...:ok:

[TIMA9X]

was with MMA between 1970-1972 where he was employed as a 'Dispatch Officer'...
Woops, don't tell them at Q, they will put him on the board.:rolleyes:

[SpannerTwister]

Geoff's ONLY job within the Aviation Industry (excluding Journo work) was with MMA between 1970-1972 where he was employed as a 'Dispatch Officer'...http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif Woops, don't tell them at Q, they will put him on the board.:rolleyes:

No risk of that....Too much aviation experience !

ST

[gobbledock]

No risk of that....Too much aviation experience !
Pure GOLD !!

[CaptCloudbuster]

Looks like it's not just the Aussie ALEA who think this joint is not "worlds best practice".

When is your reply coming GT?

Repairer of Qantas planes 'has problems' (http://finance.ninemsn.com.au/newsbusiness/aap/8264007/repairer-of-qantas-planes-has-problems)

[lame1]

GT up to his old tricks.
a small piece from within a recent article
However, the problem for the pilots and QF is that Australians in increasing numbers are turning their backs on the airline. QF’s share of international traffic has slumped from 40.3% in 1995 to just 18.5% last year, with Jetstar accounting for 8%. Low-cost airlines, including Jetstar, now account for 19.5% of traffic into and out of Australia.

Pax numbers 97-18606000
98-18865000
99-19236000
00-20485000
01-22147000
02-27128000
03-28884000
04-30076000
05-32658000
06-34075000
07-36449000
08-38631000
09-38438000
10-41428000
Another example of poor reporting.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Where are your pax numbers from LAME1? Are they Qf pax or all traffic into and out of Australia?

[lame1]

QF annual report Mr fedsec

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Is there any way we can split that into International traffic? I know they are saying that there share has dropped but I suspect the level of traffic has at least doubled making their pax numbers higher each year. Is thee any way we can find that out?

[Sunfish]

If Qf are running full aircraft and have no spare capacity, then of course their market share is going to drop....

What is important is the yield.

[airtags]

lame1:
The phrase "Poor journalism" does not even come close! - its such a shame that GT was not the aviation writer for News of the World.

What we can hope for is some intellegent and articulate scrutiny of pax numbers, yeilds & moreover accounting revenues and expenses when the 24 Aug plan is revealed............(emphasis on the term hope)

AT

[assasin8]

Don't worry guys, GT will need to start worrying about his own job soon, as there are going to be quite a few extra "avaition experts" looking for work, now that "The News Of The World" has closed! :O

[73to91]

Fed Sec,

here is a detailed breakdown for 2010
http://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/04/Files/CY10.pdf

Breakdown by carrier starts on page 16.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Thnx for the link. Some good stuff on that site. It tells the real story behind the destruction of Qantas. the ditching of profitable routes, strong growth in key sectors and virtually no downturn durng 9/11 and SARS periods.

Would suggest anyone who can crunch numbers have a good look.

[Juice Rider]

At least the News of the world jornos did some research

[QAN_Shareholder]

Is there any way we can split that into International traffic? I know they are saying that their share has dropped but I suspect the level of traffic has at least doubled making their pax numbers higher each year. Is there any way we can find that out?

Yes, traffic figures for international are published monthly but I think they show GT is right. The last published traffic figures for this year showed YTD for May 2011 International carried 5.534m passengers, the equivalent figure 10 years ago was 7.105m.

[1me]

Yes, traffic figures for international are published monthly but I think they show GT is right. The last published traffic figures for this year showed YTD for May 2011 International carried 5.534m passengers, the equivalent figure 10 years ago was 7.105m.Well blow me down! Who'd have thought? International passenger carriage numbers dropping over the last 10 years?? Incredible! Can't be the fact that Qantas has been handing off routes to Jetstar and abandoning otherwise profitable routes for no reason..
Must be something else.. :ugh:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Qantas group traffic (International in pax carried)

2000 - 5.36 mill

2010 - 7.06 mill

[tail wheel]

Purely as an observation from the link to statistics above........

In 2010 if QF International Outbound load factor 82.8% and Inbound load factor 80.0%, and QF International is unprofitable, surely the tariff structure is incorrect? Looking at the statistics, it would appear Qantas load factor is well above average?

Especially if Jetstar is profitable with load factors of 76.8% Outbound and 78.2% Inbound?

[600ft-lb]

Don't let real facts and figures get in the way of a good story Tail Wheel.

Qantas is BLEEDING cash and leeching off Jetstar to survive. It must be true because CAPA said so and so did the LIBM.

[assasin8]

Yep, Jetstar is keeping the parent alive..... $59 fares, use of QF engineering facilities, lounges, expertise, infrastructure, codesharing, etc... but making squillions on over priced muffins! :ugh:

"Serenity now!" :cool: