AFAP (Federation) takes legal action against Jetstar

[Lawrie Cox]

We copy below the text of our two most recent newsletters for information. We have initiated Federal Court action against the proposed Jetstar Group operation.


TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: AFAP Jetstar Pilot Council
DATE: 17 May 2011
RE: Jetstar Group Pilot Contracts – AFAP Application to the Federal Court


Today the AFAP filed proceedings in the Federal Court of Australia against Jetstar Group Pty Limited. The application seeks declarations, penalties and compensation pursuant to the Fair Work Act 2009.

We have also made application for interlocutory relief (i.e. an injunction to stop the company from continuing to offer the contracts as they currently stand).

The proceedings have been commenced on the basis that we believe that Jetstar Group Pty Ltd has or proposes to contravene the Air Pilots Award.

The matter has been listed for Directions at 9.30am on 10 June 2011 in Melbourne.

We will keep you advised of developments.

Thank you to all the Jetstar pilots who came to the AFAP Jetstar Pilot Meeting held in Melbourne today. We hope to see as many of you as possible (union member or not) at tomorrow’s AFAP Jetstar Pilot Meeting in Sydney

Sydney
10:00am – 11:00am
Wednesday 18 May 2011
St George Rowing Club
1 Levey St, Wolli Creek

Meetings at other ports to be advised shortly

All Jetstar pilots need to take notice, get informed, and defend their Jetstar EBA.

PLEASE DISTRIBUTE THIS NEWSLETTER TO ALL YOUR COLLEAGUES AND ENCOURAGE EVERY JETSTAR PILOT TO ATTEND

If you have any questions regarding this matter please contact Simon Lutton at the AFAP on [email protected],

Regards
AFAP Jetstar Council

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: AFAP Jetstar Pilot Council
DATE: 17 May 2011
RE: Jetstar Group Pilot Contracts - Questions


It is great to see so many of us sending a strong message directly to Jetstar management about the Jetstar Group individual contracts.

We remind pilots to ensure that your emails remain professional and cannot be construed as supporting unprotected industrial action.

We are actively working with the AFAP staff and legal advisers to develop a strategy designed to ensure that all Jetstar pilots flying in Australia are employed under your EBA. This includes initiating legal action as soon as possible.

Below are a few questions you may wish to ask management when they try to persuade you with their two second grabs of “comparable terms” and “not our intent”:

1. Why didn’t the company seek variations to the existing Jetstar EBA before offering the contracts?

2. Why can the contract be changed by the Company at any time at its “absolute discretion”?

3. Why is there no guaranteed wage increases under the contract?

4. Why does the contract deem a pilot to be part-time although required to be available Monday to Sunday and restricted from working elsewhere?

5. Why won’t you raise the minimum guarantee to 800 hours if you believe and intend all pilots under the contract will receive between 800-900 hours?

6. Why does the contract use only “block hours” for the payment of salary?

7. Why does the contract only provide for 9 days off per month?

8. Why does the contract define “a day off” as a twenty four hour period free of duty?

9. Why does the contract provide for a lower payment when working on a day off?

10. Why does the contract provide lower meal allowances than the Jetstar EBA or Award?

If you have any questions regarding this matter please contact Simon Lutton at the AFAP on [email protected],

Regards
AFAP Jetstar Council

[The Green Goblin]

Thanks Lawrie, I have faith in you. This is why it's important to be a member of our union.

All those up and coming GA guys, join now, this is your future!

[HomeJames]

Give them hell Mr Lutton.

[JAM441]

Lawrie, Simon. Give em hell. About time, this rot has been going on for too long.

An IFALPA recruitment ban should be placed as well.

Good luck.:D

[Muff Hunter]

Well done to the AFAP,

I've had reservations as to your intentions for a long time, but now I'm glad to be proven wrong.

The aviation community is behind your efforts to break these corporate criminals.

[apache]

Lawrie, and the AFAP, I wish you all the best. I believe that this IS a cause to fight!

you have my support.

[Mr Pilot 2007]

Glad to hear you are standing up to fight for justice.

Send these greedy ceo's and managers a message.

It is airlines like this that makes me regret getting into this industry over 25 years ago and is screwing my profession.

Trademen, contractors and MANY other jobs make much better money nowadays. Take up a better paying career and buy your own homebuilt plane to enjoy flying.

How many airline pilots can afford to own a homebuilt aircraft compared to other jobs. Not many it seems.

Good luck and stand firm!

[Mr. Hat]

Grind them into the concrete.

[KRUSTY 34]

Fantastic news Lawrie, Simon, AFAP, and the JPC. What an absolute disgrace that it had to come to this.

Best of luck with the fight boys and girls, you are now fighting for the professional standing of all pilots in Australia.

P.S. I heard on the grapevine that a pilot from my Company is considering taking up the Jetstar Group contract. ARE YOU FREAKING INSANE?! Hope I was misinformed, but there is no way you or anyone else could even contemplate doing such thing now.:confused:

[Mr. Hat]

Is he/she aware of the looming recruitment ban?

[ratpoison]

Very strong rumour this afternoon that multi million dollar investors and fund managers are meeting tomorrow regarding the conduct of this scum. Continual fall in share price has many losing millions per week as these unnecessary management provoked industrial issues continue to reek havoc. Apparently the vermin of Paddy, Reg and the entire board have until COB next Friday 27 May to get their sh*t together or an EGM is being held for a vote of no confidence and have the lot ousted. Allegedly, temporary emergency board management is being arranged. :D

[hotnhigh]

One can only hope with everything crossed, that you are on the money rat.
Or did you just throw a bait?:}

[The Green Goblin]

It seems there have been some headway with management.

The union has put forward that Jetstar is not to offer any Pilot the contract, and if they wish to hire it will be on the EBA.

Jetstar said they are considering the proposal.

Lets see where this takes us.

For those who have accepted (the figure is less than a handful) SHAME ON YOU!

For those who declined along with those who withdrew their applications, I salute you!

[rodchucker]

Fingers crossed this is correct and long overdue.

Never get between a fund manager and his money I say.

Hope that all concerned are keeping fund managers and anyone who will listen tuned into this site.

I have been through a similar experience with an equally capable management team who destroyed lives for their own benefit and when the axe fell the pace of the recovery in morale shocked everyone because all the staff wanted was for someone to listen and involve them.

Bring on the revolution!!!

[ratpoison]

hotnhigh,
No bait my friend. Some Big Money are invested in this mob and they don't like losing Big Money.

[breakfastburrito]

Very strong rumour this afternoon that multi million dollar investors and fund managers are meeting tomorrow regarding the conduct of this scum. Continual fall in share price has many losing millions per week as these unnecessary management provoked industrial issues continue to reek havoc. Apparently the vermin of Paddy, Reg and the entire board have until COB next Friday 27 May to get their sh*t together or an EGM is being held for a vote of no confidence and have the lot ousted. Allegedly, temporary emergency board management is being arranged.

Dear Fund Managers, Qantas could once again be an outstanding and highly profitable airline, don't let its current management destroy its value, and your funds. This companies greatest asset is the loyal, experienced & dedicated workforce. Managements tactics for over a decade have been to so alienate the workforce, that they hoped would take their experience elsewhere. One thing I can assure you of is that experience makes a significant difference to the profitability of an airline. The pool of latent goodwill is so deep, with a new management team, this airline could be returned to a world class airline. We, the employees are desperate to see Qantas succeed.

The fix is remarkably simple, find a management team that thinks like Southwest Airlines, the worlds most continuous profitable airline, people are its DNA. The book Nuts! Southwest Airlines' Crazy Recipe for Business and Personal Success is the handbook to restore Qantas. If you would like a copy PM or email me at thebreafastburrito {at} hotmail dot [com] and I will express post a copy to you.

You have two simple choices, persist with the current management and lose your entire investment. Current management appear to be hell bent on destroying Qantas, from which a private equity fund will scoop up the crown jewels of Qantas at firesale prices. (Ask Leigh Clifford about his association with KKR)

The second choice, is to show the current management team, from the board down the door, re-engage your staff, re-engineer the business by trusting your employees to run the business from the bottom up to be profitable (Southwest model) and watch your profits soar.

I have documented what I believe is the "gameplan" to swindle you the shareholder, the customers & employees over a the last 3 years. My previous posts can be found HERE (http://www.pprune.org/search.php?do=finduser&u=234141).

[Beer Baron]

Firstly, congratulations to the AFAP Jetstar Council for fighting this outrageous contract, both in court and by mobilising the voice of your members.

I do have a question though regarding the court action you have launched. Rather than fighting the fact that Jetstar are side-stepping the EBA, it seems that you are arguing their interpretation of the Air Pilots Award.

I base that on this comment: The proceedings have been commenced on the basis that we believe that Jetstar Group Pty Ltd has or proposes to contravene the Air Pilots Award.

Does this mean that Jetstar are completely within their legal rights to employ pilots on the Award outside the EBA?

I hope that is not the case but I am far from an expert on IR law.

[aussie027]

Good Questions Beerbaron.
That was my Q earlier, how can setting up diff companies purely to bypass the existing EBA be freakin legal??

Especially when the workers do the same job, in the same place, literally side by side with those on the EBA .

If they worked in a diff country, flying diff planes on diff route network, like a totally separate airline then obviously it would be appropriate to have 2 separate contracts etc, like Virgin America and Virgin Australia. Totally diff in every way, apart from the "Virgin" in the title.

[Roller Merlin]

Well done AFAP and JPCC. Remember boys and girls that it is all about timing and leverage. Issues are reaching critical mass:

Fatigue issues - Casa audit of JQ in May
Federal Court Direction on these crap contacts on 10 June
Senate Enquiry to report 15 June - possible Bill proposed to shore up safety
QF Engineers, LH pilots in dispute
JQ pilots sending emails with real safety and morale concerns to management

This is a watershed period. The industry insurers, investors and travellers should be worried...this corporate pilage of the very structures that keep Aussie flyers safe needs to be stopped. Australian Aviation is no place for financial foxes who persist in experimenting within the chookshed.

[ACT Crusader]

Good questions beer and aussie. Imagine if beer set up a business and employed people on an EA. Alright everythings cool. Then aussie who is a business partner of beer sets up a company that does the same stuff but says he will only employ brand new people (not existing workers from beer's business) on different workplace arrangements (ie Individual contracts). If beer and aussie have different business names, then to my knowledge there is nothing stopping this from happening.

However if beer decides to use aussie's workers in a labour hire arrangement then it is up to the workers and the union of beer's workers to demand in negotiation that labour hire be paid the same as employees.

Unless there are changes to Corporations law that does not allow the setting up of these type of company arrangements then IR law is somewhat helpless.

What IR currently prohibits is that existing workers at beer's company be moved to aussie's company and paid aussie's individual contracts (if they are inferior). Beer's workers are entitled to take their terms and conditions with them.

[Lawrie Cox]

To all
The Federation is posting this material to give you an understanding of what is going on, please note that we are not proposing to foreshadow our actions on a public website which is why I cannot respond to a number of questions posed already. Hope that you can understand the sensitivity.

You should also note that all material is posted by and from members/officers of the AFAP not as employees of any Company.
=============================================
TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: Ben Bollen, Jetstar Council Vice-Chair
DATE: 19 May 2011
RE: Jetstar Group Pilot Contracts – Sydney Meeting Outcomes
Thank you to the 30 or so pilots who attended the AFAP Jetstar Pilot meeting in Sydney yesterday morning. At the meeting Simon Lutton (AFAP) and I provided a comprehensive briefing on the steps being taken to ensure that all Australian Jetstar pilots are employed under the Jetstar EBA.
Jetstar’s deliberate avoidance of its collective agreement obligations through the creation of separate employing companies is a threat to all pilots in Australia.
Immediately after the pilot meeting, I attended the Jetstar management organised meeting along with approximately 50 other Jetstar pilots. Discussions at this meeting were, to say the least, very direct and robust, so much so that at one stage a break was called. Upon resuming I proposed the following path forward:
1. Jetstar cease offering Jetstar Group pilot contracts to new pilots;
2. All new pilots be offered employment under the Jetstar EBA; and
3. Management sit down with the JPC (myself, Darren Davis and our reps) and genuinely discuss the issues regarding any inflexibility with the current agreement.

The company advised that it would consider this proposal.
As previously advised, two days ago the AFAP filed proceedings in the Federal Court of Australia against Jetstar Group Pty Ltd. At yesterday’s meeting David Hall advised that he has responded to this application by asking for a specific meeting with the AFAP to discuss the legal issues and contraventions being alleged. I have been involved in the development of our legal strategy and remain hopeful that a sensible solution can be achieved.
On a final note, thank you to everyone who has taken the time to directly email Jetstar management to express your dismay and concern over this attack on our EBA. This is an unprecedented show of unity and resolve. I encourage each of you to continue this communication, in the considered and professional manner which you have displayed.
This is a multifaceted campaign to ensure that your collective agreement is respected – you have an important role in this process. If you have not joined a union please sign up today. AFAP application forms are available at www.afap.org.au or by emailing [email protected].
If you have any questions regarding this matter please contact me, any other member of the AFAP Jetstar Council or Simon Lutton on [email protected], ph (03) 9928 5737
We will keep you advised of developments.
Regards
Captain Ben Bollen
AFAP Jetstar Council Vice-Chair

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: AFAP Jetstar Pilot Council
DATE: 19 May 2011
RE: Jetstar Group Pilot Contracts – AFR Article and Briefing to Government
You may have seen that today the AFAP Executive Director was quoted in the Australian Financial Review as follows:
“Mr O’Connell said the union and all Jetstar pilots believed that all pilots, first officers and cadets should be employed under the enterprise agreement that was agreed by all parties in 2008.
…
“They shook hands with their pilots’ negotiators some three years ago and now they have walked away from that handshake” he said”

A scanned copy of the full article has been posted on the AFAP website below this Briefing.
Also today, a Director from within the Minister for Industrial Relations Department contacted Simon Lutton from the AFAP requesting a briefing on the Federal Court Proceedings we commenced against Jetstar Group Pty Limited earlier this week.
Simon has provided the Director from the IR Minister’s Department with a full briefing, highlighting the implications for all Australian employees of Jetstar’s attempt to avoid its EBA obligations via the deliberate and artificial creation of a separate employing entity and the offering of individual contracts well below the standard set by the EBA.
As you can see, we are exploring every avenue to ensure that all Australian Jetstar pilots are employed under the Jetstar EBA.
We will keep you advised of developments.
PLEASE DISTRIBUTE THIS NEWSLETTER TO ALL YOUR COLLEAGUES
If you have any questions regarding this matter please contact Simon Lutton at the AFAP on [email protected], ph (03) 9928 5737.
Regards
AFAP Jetstar Council

[The Kelpie]

Lawrie / Simon

The offer by the company to discuss this is nothing more than an attempt to keep the matter out of the Federal Court. By all means discuss but I would encourage you to not to be steered away pursuing a finding by the court.

A court decision is the last thing they want as it will impact on the rest of the QANTAS group and Employers Australia wide.

Unless we show resolve and get a decision through the court system and hopefully an amendment / legal precedent to IR legislation the company and the wider QF group will never change their agenda and will resume it when the heat has died down.

We are in the era where breaking laws and incurring fines is common place as often the commercial advantage of breakin the rules outweighs the punitive level of fine imposed - that is how accountants think!! Jetstar and others have demonstrated that they are willing to push the envelope in terms of safety and break rules, and they will continue to do so until told to specifically stop by a judge.

Keep up the good work and notice just how regular communication rather than silence will rally the troops in such times as these. I expect to see a surge in membership when I hear the latest figures.

On a more general note it is encouraging to see the federation working with AIPA despite the historical differences. I echo previous posters to this thread that a bit of cash should be spent, particularly by AIPA on employing a spin doctor / media firm to work on a public communication strategy.


More to Follow

The Kelpie

[framer]

Kelpie is correct.
If a court ruling doesn't come out of this we run the risk of them watering down this contract to the extent that it stays out of court. Then.....in six months time....we are back at square one when they try it again. We have the support and momentum right now to get this to court. That should be our goal, to get IR changed while we still can.

[The Kelpie]

Not only that Framer. A finding by the Federal Court will trump the political system's ability to fiddle about with the regs after 'consultation with industry'. The court direction must be continued to allow all avenues to remain opento have any political influence on a possible proposed amendment to the regs by government (which will by far provide a speedier way forward) but will have the disadvantage of not providing the context of why the change was made that you would get in a judge's finding in a case.

We have seen regulations can be interpreted in many ways, a detailed finding by a judge usually cannot and is very specific. The context is very important.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[framer]

I didn't know that. Thanks.
Even more critical that this isn't resolved in any back room chat between Management and our Union Reps then. Ta.

[The Kelpie]

Indeed Framer!!

[Shed Dog Tosser]

I am both an AIPA and AFAP member, it's a personal choice......

Both AFAP and AIPA should be commended for putting their differences aside and working together for the good of the members.

If not already happening, now would also be a good time for ALEA to be welcomed to the party / join their party ( why stop there, FAAA, TWU.... ).

To the newbies in the industry, join now, you might not see a point to it right now, but when the political promise hits the fan, you'll need them.

Imagine being a Grade 3 instructor at a flying school or a Charter Pilot having issues with management, and a fire breathing 380 Captain comes as your pilot buddy, trust me it will be a pretty good outcome compared to the lynching the company thought they were about to give you.

I got my first airline gig from a union pilot buddy who evolved into a mentor.

[Bigboeingboy]

Did you Jetstar guys expect anything different from Jetstar? You have all been happy to undercut Qantas Pilots pay and conditions and now squeal like stuck pigs when it happens to you.
Why AIPA helps Jetstar Pilots is beyond me.

[Ndicho Moja]

Bigboeingboy...........BIG picture time.

[Eastmoore]

Bigboeingboy

Because your next :ugh:

[KRUSTY 34]

Only 12 posts.

Could be a Troll or a management stooge.:confused:

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Bigboeingboy is correct.

Because your next :ugh:

There would be no "next" if you retards didn't go first.

I am highly confident that the other pilots in the group have always / will always, have the stones to not be victims to what YOU LOT have started.

It also baffles me why AIPA or AFAP would get involved, I'm just glad to see AFAP and AIPA standing united on the same side of the table.

[Bigboeingboy]

Nobody held at gun at the heads of Impulse Pilots to signup for the ridiculous A330 contract infact AIPA President at the time pleaded with them not to accept such a deal.
So why did the Impulse/Jetstar Pilots do it?
I say once again you guys deserve all you get. The blokes signing up for the cadetship will have miserable lives and careers. They have made their own beds and I trust they enjoy sleeping in them.
Please do not come running to AIPA and expect to be bailed out of your situations. You guys have accepted pay and conditions lower than most Flight Attendants.
You should be ashamed of yourselves.

[32megapixels]

BBB,

I half agree with you. I was starting my career in 2004 in Darwin, when all this rubbish started. The downfall of the industry in Aus that is. Golden era...over!

The problem is, at the time, the people I saw who took Jetstar as an option were desperate to get out of GA, and paid for it too! Same as today! fools.

This will continue to happen, so as much as you and I agree that these fools have sown their own seed, it must be stopped as a collective. It should have been stopped as a collective back then!

At least now it is happening, or the intent from the unions is to have this happen. Which I am a member of both!

I am ready to pull the plug on Australia and take my skills overseas. As this is where this industry and country alike are going. After the mining boom, its down the plug hole!:ugh:

[flamingmoe]

32meg,

I'm pretty sure the industry is just as bad overseas, i've tried to look for somewhere to "take my skills", and it just isn't out there.

I stand to be corrected however!

[theheadmaster]

This an example of the free market economy with respect to pilots. Naive pilots accept below average conditions for their first jet job with the expectation that they can take their skills overseas to operators that are happy to pay well for experienced expat pilots. The trouble is, these overseas airlines pay only what they need to attract the skill set they require. So, now they only have to pay enough to attract a Jetconnect (for example) pilot. This drives down the pay and conditions domestically, as well as for that 'lucrative' overseas contract.

[32megapixels]

Flaming moe,

the future is in Asia and corporate, not airlines!

[Captain Sherm]

Shed Dog, Big Boeing Boy et al,

There are many ways of being selfish and only looking after number 1. The cockpit and crew-rooms and glances across the tarmac to other differently painted aircraft should be home to none of them. Nevertheless they exist and we would all do well to have the humility to recognise the hypocrisy in focussing on the speck in our brother's eye while ignoring the "plank in our own eye" (an issue addressed in some depth in the Sermon on the Mount and never been repealed as far as I know)

Which is worst of the following?:



Standing back while your management starts up B-scale operations because you don't have a Scope Clause and real action would be costly and painful

Assuming that any pilot not flying on a legacy EBA is a 'wannabe" who didn't make the grade with a "real airline"

Training and checking out new intake EBA pilots from backgrounds outside of your parent group when there are plenty of experienced pilots flying under your colours, in your uniform, with your call-sign who would love the chance to qualify

Being a member of a union that doesn't include entry level commercial and RPT pilots but expects them to join when they do fly a jet and to not apply to fly for any jet not paid a legacy carriers EBA

Implying that there is something necessarily flawed in the cadet concept when the real flaw is in management motivation and training, not the capabilities of the cadets

Having low time S/Os paid more than turbo-prop Check Pilots in your own group and doing nothing about equalising that, if necessary by sacrificing a little of your own T & C blessings

Implying that there's something inherently wrong in the LCC concept then screaming that all management should be as engaging as Southwest

Having a legacy EBA wallet in the back pocket when shopping for the best prices at Aldi or e-Bay or K-Mart all the while bad-mouthing the "bogans" who shop for cheap fares on the internet

Bad-mouthing all off-shore maintenance without taking the time to research and find out that some of the highest quality work world-wide is done in those shops


This list is not exhaustive and could usefully be expanded to those who bucket others for being "pampered", "spoiled", "Sky Gods"" etc.

There's one and only one way out of this and it isn't to watch while "others" do the heavy lifting and carefully address all their own sins

[fmcinop]

Captain Sherm,


Finally someone with half a brain. Well said indeed.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Capt Sherm,

I'd like to point out that this lower pay and poor conditions is a Jetstar issue, this Employment "outside" the EBA is also a Jetstar issue.

I find it amazing that they would sign an EBA that actually permitted the company to employ outside the EBA ( assumeing what has been said by previous posters is true ).

If you want to run with the biblical references, they have made this rod for their back, it is not, they have made this rod for everyones back.

So suggesting Jetstar pilots will be doing heavy lifting for the whole industry is laughable to say the least.

They were instrumental is their own demise, kinda sucks to see the reality they have made for themselves.

It is my hope they grow some stones and stand up for themselves with their next EBA negotiation.

The company appears to utilising a paragraph in the EBA that the Pilot group agreed too, in writing as opposed to some supposed hand shake agreement.

[Captain Sherm]

Shed Dog,

Please re-read the bullet points in my post again.

There is one group who have signed EBA after EBA without a scope clause and THEY made a rod for their own back and for the future of all those who would one day want to work for a QF Group Airline or transfer within that Group. That group of pilots is not your Jetstar colleagues.

When the QF Group makes the announcement that it is setting up a separate company to operate mainline 787 services that will be nothing to do with Jetstar. That ball will be very firmly in AIPA's court and the solution will not be without tears.

Isolationism has had a success rate inversely proportional to its popularity. "We're OK why don't you guys get your act together" has brought more pain to the world, in and out of cockpits, than almost any other slogan I could think of.

May I suggest that every safety, professional and industrial battle being fought by any group of pilots anywhere is ultimately a battle that will be fought by all pilots everywhere. In fact I would go further and say that as long as pilots feel themselves separate from the battles of not just other pilots, but their cabin crew, engineer, ramp and traffic colleagues, then isolationism will stay in its place alongside the other horsemen of the industrial apocalypse.

If we all go round pointing fingers then everyone will lose their eye-sight sooner or later.

['holic]

(sigh)

There is one group who have signed EBA after EBA without a scope clause and THEY made a rod for their own back and for the future of all those who would one day want to work for a QF Group Airline or transfer within that Group.You say this like AIPA could have snapped their fingers and the company would have agreed to a scope clause. It's been one of AIPA's asks for years, but the company have never agreed. Try and be realistic.

Training and checking out new intake EBA pilots from backgrounds outside of your parent group when there are plenty of experienced pilots flying under your colours, in your uniform, with your call-sign who would love the chance to qualifyRefusing to do so would have been unprotected IA. Stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Having low time S/Os paid more than turbo-prop Check Pilots in your own group and doing nothing about equalising that, if necessary by sacrificing a little of your own T & C blessingsSo you reckon if we agree to reduce SO pay, the company will increase QLink pay?:rolleyes: They'll say "thank you very much" and have their hand out 10 minutes later asking for more. ALL parts of the Group need to hang on to what T&Cs they have because that's all we have to negotiate with.

"We're OK why don't you guys get your act together"This is my favourite. Mainline pilots have been saying for years that we need to work together but have been stonewalled by the Jetstar pilots, probably in no small part due to clowns like you posting crap on Pprune. Only in recent times have management's actions changed J* pilots attitudes. And no .... mainline is well aware we're not ok. Everyone is on a slippery slope, we're just a little bit higher up than Jetstar. Most guys realise that it's imperative that we stop any further erosion of conditions for ALL the group and the best way forwards is unity. Yes, you see mainline pilots direct venom towards the J* guys, but you see just as much venom from J* towards J* NZ, cadets and J* SIN. Pretty ironic, considering they themselves were accepting substandard contracts a few years back.

All in all, mainline has been much more cohesive as a group and has been doing all it can to stop this debacle from day one. So to be blamed for it is just a bit rich.

[Flava Saver]

So 'holic, what would you like JQ Aus guys & gals do in this instance?

[amos2]

...well! I'd suggest they give Laurie Cox the flick for a start!

['holic]

So 'holic, what would you like JQ Aus guys & gals do in this instance? Mate, seeing as though you asked, join a union and stop undercutting each other would be a good start. We can hold as many unity meetings as you like, but we aren't going to achieve much if guys are signing SIN contracts 10 minutes later. I know the majority of J* guys agree with this, but until the remainder come onboard all we're doing is making BB smirk behind his hand. And start thinking long term rather than short term. A lot of guys are happy to accept sh1te contracts with the plan of getting hours and moving on. It's a fools paradise, all they're doing is accelerating the race to the bottom.

Anyway, the point of my post wasn't to have a shot at J* pilots. It was to have a shot at J* pilots who get on here and lecture the QF guys how this is their fault or how "it's ok for me to undercut you" but "not ok for someone else to undercut me". Oh yeah, and Sherm .... who seems to think QF pilots are responsible for everything from smallpox to Donald Trump's haircut.

[Shark Patrol]

Holic, I completely agree with everything you have posted, particularly this part:

A lot of guys are happy to accept sh1te contracts with the plan of getting hours and moving on.

If oil prices remain high and margins remain slim, eventually other airlines will follow Australia's lead and cut T&Cs in the knowledge that there will still be pilots who will sign up. Then, those who have accepted the crappy contracts will have nowhere to go, and they will have caused it!

[Captain Sherm]

Holic forgive me, I was trying to lower the room temperature on this, not raise it. If there is a flaw in my writing it is in my capabilities as a wordsmith not my heart. I have no vested interest in this except that shared by all thinking people: the desire for equity to prevail and divisiveness to decline.

The Qantas EBA pilots are not the source of all evil. Far from it. I am sure they do their job well and wish no-one ill.

But I think it is fair to note that the mainline AIPA pilots are potentially the most unified, well paid and highly unionised group of pilots in the South Pacific and yet they have been unable for years to stop their Group management from starting up new AOCs and new T & C agreements. AIPA members have long taken part in the training and checking of pilots hired from outside the Group pool and welcomed them into their union and seniority system while colleagues whose only sin is to have a job under a different Qantas Group AOC are sidelined.

Why would all the JQ pilots joining a union help? I have heard most are already anyway. It's not the JQ pilots who are signing worse and worse terms, they already have an EBA, it's pilots from outside the group who are being targeted for new jobs. Qantas check and training pilots welcome "outsiders" to their operation, exactly why should Jetstar pilots ban such applicants when their better paid and more powerful mainline brothers and sisters can't?

I only point out in my original post that pointing fingers won't help. Whatever JQ pilots, current and future, are going through now is what mainline pilots face soon. Start using the word "US" more often, and "THEM" less often and that would be a start.

There are strategies to build a better world for pilots where reason, equity and sanity can prevail, without in any way limiting the growth opportunities for the whole Group. None of the options is painless however and yet every one of them is better than doing nothing.

['holic]

Sherm, fair enough.

AIPA members have long taken part in the training and checking of pilots hired from outside the Group pool and welcomed them into their union and seniority system while colleagues whose only sin is to have a job under a different Qantas Group AOC are sidelined.
Qantas check and training pilots welcome "outsiders" to their operation, exactly why should Jetstar pilots ban such applicants when their better paid and more powerful mainline brothers and sisters can't?Absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You'll need to be a bit more specific.

Why would all the JQ pilots joining a union help? I have heard most are already anyway. It's not the JQ pilots who are signing worse and worse terms, they already have an EBA, it's pilots from outside the group who are being targeted for new jobs.Ok, don't join a union, but as I said above don't undercut each other. It is JQ pilots that are signing the offshore SIN contracts which their colleagues are protesting against.

There are strategies to build a better world for pilots where reason, equity and sanity can prevail, without in any way limiting the growth opportunities for the whole Group.Agree. That's why AIPA tried to set up GOAL a few years back, which would have been a huge benefit to ALL group pilots as far as job security and career prospects go. Apparently JQ pilots didn't agree.

[amos2]

Hey!...get rid of cox & toc...and start anew...you'll achieve more!
They should have gone 20 yrs ago, but they don't care about you, they only care about their own futures! They have no principles and will sell you out as they did others back in 89'

[Flava Saver]

'holic, for the record since you said 'join a union', i've been a member of AIPA since 2005, so my plastic card says.

[nitpicker330]

I'm told by mates in QF that the 767-300F operation ( VH Rego ) is crewed by contractors that are being trained ( welcomed? ) by QF Trainers. Indeed aparently some of the contract crew are on leave without pay FROM QF!!

Whilst 20 Captains and 20 FO's will be moved/demoted/re-trained off their 767's

Incredible how AIPA let this happen.....

[HF3000]

I don't think freighter pilots are eligible to be members of AIPA. They may be eligible to be members of AFAP. The only one I know who took leave without pay to go to QF Freight was the 737 Training Manager who was not a member of AIPA. He is now the Chief Pilot of QF Freight, I believe.

AIPA made a huge fuss in the press about the B767 freighter operation when it started (then ATI), and a huge fuss internally. Every effort by AIPA to prevent it failed. Was that a failure of AIPA, or a failure of the law of the land? I'd be pretty surprised to hear of any AIPA members taking that gig on leave of absence. Happy to be corrected.

An effective association requires 2 things, at minimum. A good leader, and 100% backing from it's members. ALAEA proved that last dispute. The first is hard to achieve, the second is very hard, particularly with pilots. At least AIPA is doing pretty well on those two fronts. That doesn't mean they can rule the land - Industrial law and corrupt government and media see to that. So they can only do the best that they can, act smart and stay united.

It's a lot harder with JQ pilots - two unions, and some percentage of non-members. At least AIPA and AFAP are attempting to work together in support of JQ pilots. That is excellent and I hope it continues to improve. JQ management hate that, hence the lockout from the last meeting. Take serious note of that.

No AIPA mainline members want the new JQ contracts to be successful either. Despite some comments in this thread, JQ pilots have the full support of all AIPA members in this fight, from the bar-room discussions I have had.

We're all on the same team, folks. Let's stay on message and be nice to each other. Save the ammunition for the real enemy.

[Don Diego]

HF,

OW had both her feet in her mouth the other day and old BJ still was unable to finish her off so that might be a good place to start!!
Had the experts at AIPA embraced the various "groups" of pilots as they were ingested/created by Q along the way, we may well be in a different position today.

[busdriver007]

EFA has a sub-committee under AIPA and is gathering steam. All Aussie pilots need to remember who is the enemy...remember our jobs are governed by law. Stand up to these short-sighted bullies who think they can get away with it...

[b737800capt06]

Airline pilots are not and can never been seen as 'taxi drivers of the sky' which I think some airlines executives around the world see them as.

Like any group of workers who are faced with attempts to reduce their wages or conditions of employment, you all should unite together with the AFAP to remind the flying public that it is a slippery slope once you are on the downward slide in your wages and conditions.:=

Ask a member of the public what they think about a first officer (A320) pilots salary when they are on the ground - then ask that same member of the public when they are in seat 23a at FL350.:ok:

Why do we pay doctors well?, why do we pay surgeons well?, because our lives are in their hands - It is no different when we, as self loading freight, fly.

I dare not start a discussion about maintenance being completed overseas.:eek:

Never Go Backwards In Conditions/wages, you have all worked to hard to be shafted by JetStar management.

[Lookleft]

Jetstar have announced that they will be freezing recruitment until September. A victory for unity but the battle is not over yet.

[KRUSTY 34]

Ahh, cutting off their noses to spite their face. These pr!cks are nothing if not predictable!

Stand firm everyone. It will be a fight to the death. Whilst Common sense has never been these bast@rd's strong suit, arrogance certainly has. They'll eventually be dragged kicking and sceaming into the real world, and when that happens, their sucessors will be scambling for experienced pilots in an effort to catch up. :rolleyes: To be employed only of course, on a properly negotiated EBA!

What a pathetic waste of time and money.

[The Kelpie]

Jetstar have announced that they will be freezing recruitment until September. A victory for unity but the battle is not over yet.


Anyone know if that includes Cadet recruitment at Oxford and CTC and the Advanced Cadets going through at the moment?

Perhaps they have received a whisper on the content of the Senate report as with this lot everything is often not what it seems!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Captain Sherm]

One day, a scorpion looked around at the mountain where he lived and decided that he wanted a change. So he set out on a journey through the forests and hills. He climbed over rocks and under vines and kept going until he reached a river.

The river was wide and swift, and the scorpion stopped to reconsider the situation. He couldn't see any way across. So he ran upriver and then checked downriver, all the while thinking that he might have to turn back.

Suddenly, he saw a frog sitting in the rushes by the bank of the stream on the other side of the river. He decided to ask the frog for help getting across the stream.

"Hellooo Mr. Frog!" called the scorpion across the water, "Would you be so kind as to give me a ride on your back across the river?"

"Well now, Mr. Scorpion! How do I know that if I try to help you, you wont try to kill me?" asked the frog hesitantly.

"Because," the scorpion replied, "If I try to kill you, then I would die too, for you see I cannot swim!"

Now this seemed to make sense to the frog. But he asked. "What about when I get close to the bank? You could still try to kill me and get back to the shore!"

"This is true," agreed the scorpion, "But then I wouldn't be able to get to the other side of the river!"

"Alright then...how do I know you wont just wait till we get to the other side and THEN kill me?" said the frog.

"Ahh...," crooned the scorpion, "Because you see, once you've taken me to the other side of this river, I will be so grateful for your help, that it would hardly be fair to reward you with death, now would it?!"

So the frog agreed to take the scorpion across the river. He swam over to the bank and settled himself near the mud to pick up his passenger. The scorpion crawled onto the frog's back, his sharp claws prickling into the frog's soft hide, and the frog slid into the river. The muddy water swirled around them, but the frog stayed near the surface so the scorpion would not drown. He kicked strongly through the first half of the stream, his flippers paddling wildly against the current.

Halfway across the river, the frog suddenly felt a sharp sting in his back and, out of the corner of his eye, saw the scorpion remove his stinger from the frog's back. A deadening numbness began to creep into his limbs.

"You fool!" croaked the frog, "Now we shall both die! Why on earth did you do that?"

The scorpion shrugged, and did a little jig on the drownings frog's back.

"I could not help myself. It is my nature."

Then they both sank into the muddy waters of the swiftly flowing river.

Self destruction - "Its my Nature", said the Scorpion...

[KRUSTY 34]

You know Capt Sherm, that Fable has crossed my mind more than a few times when dealing with the likes of these guys over the years. :ok:

[The Guru]

I agree with the angryrat!

There is some other major problem in the background that is concerning management, which is much more sinister than a couple of newbie trainee pilots not joining the ranks this month.....

I'm thinking that they know that the fallout from QF longhaul negotiation is going to result in PIA, and they need to keep the other parts of the business flying during the chaos and disruption.:oh:

[The Kelpie]

Will be interesting to find out who commissioned the team of consultants to go into Qantas.

Was it AJ and the Board or was it the Major Shareholders?

It seems there is a loss of faith in the direction being encouraged by Boston Consultants.

We will see.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Management In Charge]

I will word my input cautiously as apparently I have offended some allegedly ‘pea hearted’ people in other threads, and I have been banned from inputting my logical structured rationale into some of those other threads.
The use of Consultants is a must in today’s financially unstable environment. Consultants come into the organization with a clear, unbiased and open viewpoint. Admittedly, they will make a raft of recommendations and suggest a variety of cost cutting measures but they do so transparently, over much soul searching and with brute inner strength. Most cost cutting does occur within the labor ranks positioned below the executive management tier, however that is where a lot of money is wasted on poorly educated underperforming overstaffed people. Although Consultants appear to be remunerated handsomely, the reality is that there are many associated running costs with operating a Consultancy, including laundry bills, faxing, affixing stamps to letters and so forth, so in reality a Consultant would earn less than the average A320 cadet. But that does not mean that one should diminish the vital role that Consultants play in aviation. The enthusiasm the Consultant brings into the workplace inspires management to reach levels one could only dream about. In turn Management become even more enthused, creative and inspired, which spells out SUCCESS for the shareholder, our most valued associate.
So in reality we should raise a toast the Consultant. We should appreciate and consider the sometimes difficult and rocky path they must traverse through an organization as they try to strive to deliver savings measure that will greatly satisfy the Shareholder. The future of Consultancies is strong, the savings they bring are superlative, and the vision they possess is awe inspiring. They truly are an intertwining component of the organizational existence, to them I say ‘well done’.

[Arnold E]

This guy is not fair dinkum is he.:eek:

[legaleagle73]

Management In Charge, are you by any chance related to Captain Toss Parker who posted regularly in the Hong Kong forum until his recent retirement from Cathay C & T? You seem to embody the spirit of the great Captain.:ok:

Cheers

[L Riding hood]

The last consultants cost QF 150 million http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif

[propblast]

a lot of money is wasted on poorly educated underperforming overstaffed people

At the moment, I think this is upper managment, and their consultants

the reality is that there are many associated running costs with operating a Consultancy, including laundry bills, faxing, affixing stamps to letters and so forth

Pick me for the job of affixing stamps. I bet that is were all the money goes.


I have been banned from inputting my logical structured rationale into some of those other threads

Probably a good move by the mods. Under the law of inevitability you would be bound to make sense sooner or later. Now go back go reading from your text books, you never know, you may end up learning something that will lift you off the lowest rung.


Wow, can't believe I just bit at that. :ugh::ugh: From now on I vote the mods change his user name to Makita. A massive power tool.

[Sunfish]

M.I.C.is giving you satire.

[Captain Dart]

M.I.C., 'it's been done'.

[rowdy trousers]

It would seem that not only does bb have trouble in dealing with the truth, but it would also seem that he may be (seriously) delusional.

Does he honestly expect anyone, my 5 year old son included, to believe that a decision has been made to delay growth plans at jq, because the incremental cost of employing EBA pilots over the proposed contract pilots, now make those growth plans unviable? Wasn't it last week that he told the world that the airline doesn't actually make money as an airline as such, but makes it's profits by selling muffins?

Like Kevin 07 in politics, BB could go well down in history as the biggest imposter ever to run an airline.

Have they not been telling all who will listen that the pay and hours under the proposed contract are basically the same as the eba?

He is clearly desperate to find an excuse, any excuse, to try and mitigate his own culpability in this, and the numerous preceeding shambolic statergy executions.

I suspect there is a lot more to September than seems obvious to us now.

The military analogy has already been used, but I think that we need to watch our flanks very closly, the only hope that these clowns now have , if rumours of board unrest, consultants etc are true - is an ambush.

Their form already shows that the truth and honour mean nothing. They have already tried to hamper communication amoungt the troops (no more group emails please!) - a tactic straight from "how to wage a war 101".

The "A" in EBA stands for "agreement" - period

[rodchucker]

Does anyone see the irony of consultants advising on consultants?

Surely the Board must be asked:
1. How much of shareholders money has been pissed away on these projects that have added NO value?

2. Who is actually doing anything in the Exec ranks?

If anyone knows the answers put it out there for all to see and lets counter the argument it is wages that is the problem.

This is going to be like Labour Govts when change happens because all manner of crap is going to be exposed by the incoming. Lets hope they dont have too many shredders.

[Dagger]

Could the freeze be partly to nullify the argument during the coming mainline PIA that they are looking at making Qantas pilots redundant while simultaneously recruiting at Jetstar.

[Don Diego]

Perhaps they could send those surplus pilots over to the "bug smashing huge profit making" airline for some realignment??:ok:

[Shark Patrol]

What do you mean Don? Is Jetstar short of sellers for the profit-making coffees and muffins?

[no one]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Kevin '07 the one who got rid of 'Work Choices'

No way a thread drift, I would never accept anything less than the EBA.

[DutchRoll]

Re Management In Charge:

Come on guys. I know everyone is getting wound up during these difficult times, but can you not recognise satire when you see it? Either that, or he's a Poe*. But I strongly suspect genuine satire.

*Poe's Law (Nathan Poe, 2005): "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."

The axiom is that it is impossible to distinguish the parody of extremist beliefs from genuine proponents of them, because it is all equally nutty.

[unionist1974]

DR , I agree time everyone stepped back and laughed , way too serious at times . Come on guys you must see the funny side of MIC.

[L Riding hood]

I can see how you find this funny Unionist as you laugh all the way to the bank with other people’s hard earn money http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/pukey.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/pukey.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/pukey.gif

[unionist1974]

L R H ,its satire old boy or girl satire , God can you lot laugh !

[Lawrie Cox]

TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: AFAP Jetstar Pilot Council
DATE: 20 May 2011
RE: Jetstar Group Pilot Contracts – AFAP Meeting with Jetstar
Last night David Hall, Mark Rindfleish and Ian Oldmeadow met with Terry O’Connell and Simon Lutton from the AFAP to discuss our Federal Court application against Jetstar Group Pty Limited – due for Directions Hearing on 10 June 2011.
At the meeting we confirmed our position as:
“Jetstar should only employ Australian based pilots under the Jetstar Agreement and any variations it wishes to discuss regarding flexibilities and part-time employment arrangements should be genuinely discussed with the JPC representatives.”
Jetstar management advised that they would consider our request.
We remain hopeful that a sensible solution can be achieved.
We will continue to keep you advised of developments.
PLEASE DISTRIBUTE THIS NEWSLETTER TO ALL YOUR COLLEAGUES
If you have any questions regarding this matter please contact Simon Lutton at the AFAP on [email protected], ph (03) 9928 5737.
Regards
AFAP Jetstar Council
===========================================

TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: AFAP Jetstar Pilot Council
DATE: 23 May 2011
RE: Jetstar Group Pilot Contracts – Further Meeting with Jetstar
Today the company met with the AFAP to discuss our Federal Court application against Jetstar Group Pty Limited – due for Directions Hearing on 10 June 2011.
Since our first meeting last Thursday, the company advised that it has stopped the employment of First Officers under the Jetstar Group Contracts while we work through the issues. This is a positive step.
We are still in negotiations in relation to the employment of cadets (a significant part of our application).
In light of these developments Jetstar management has asked that the application be discontinued.
The AFAP Jetstar Council has decided to continue the application at this time. We have however suggested that meetings between the company and JPC representatives be scheduled as a matter of priority.
We will continue to keep you advised of developments.
If you have any questions regarding this matter please contact Simon Lutton at the AFAP on [email protected], ph (03) 9928 5737.
Regards
AFAP Jetstar Council
==============================================

TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: Ben Bollen, AFAP Jetstar Council Vice-Chair
DATE: 26 May 2011
RE: Jetstar Group Pilot Contracts – JPC Meeting with Jetstar
Yesterday, three Jetstar pilot representatives (myself, Darren Davis and Paul Hogan) met with David Hall, Mark Dal Pra and Mark Rindfleish in Melbourne. Bruce Buchanan also attended part of the meeting via teleconference from overseas.
The purpose of the meeting was to understand what ‘flexibilities’ the company required to ensure that all Jetstar pilots based in Australia are employed under our EBA. After some constructive discussion, the company undertook to review its position and provide the final details of what it is seeking within the next week. We will consider its position and respond accordingly.
A significant amount of our discussions were focussed on the cadets who continue to be engaged under the Jetstar Group contracts. We remain hopeful of finding a sensible/workable solution to ensure that they will be employed under our current EBA.
We have received a great deal of feedback from pilots following the Company’s proposition that the AFAP discontinue the court case over the Jetstar Group pilot contracts while discussions take place.
Ultimately it is in the company’s hands whether we continue with the court case. We will not be backing down while the company continues or proposes to continue to employ any Australian based Jetstar pilot under these contracts.
What is required now is for all Jetstar pilots to show their support for the AFAP legal action, and in that way show the company that we are united and determined to see this through. We ask you to show your unity and support by joining with us in this fight. You can do this by joining and/or encouraging your colleagues to join the AFAP. Application forms are available on the website www.afap.org.au via email to [email protected] or by calling the office on (03) 9928 5737.
We will continue to keep you advised of developments.
If you have any questions regarding this matter please contact Simon Lutton at the AFAP on [email protected], ph (03) 9928 5737.
Regards
Ben Bollen
AFAP Jetstar Council Vice-Chair

[bonvol]

Last night David Hall, Mark Rindfleish and Ian Oldmeadow met with

The names just make you want to throw up.

I have to hand it to you Terry. I'd find it hard to sit in the same room as these guys and not contemplate something that would get you life in the slammer.

[Pukka]

A different approach...

LONDON (Dow Jones)--EasyJet PLC's (EZJ.LN) Chief Executive Carolyn McCall Tuesday criticized former management for its poor handling of pilots and conceded a pay rise to appease its strongest group of workers, who will now vote whether to accept the deal and prevent a strike threat.
EasyJet has promised pilots a 4% increase in basic pay, which will be backdated to October 1 and a further 5% increase in flight pay after lengthy negotiations with union British Airline Pilots' Association, or BALPA.
"I am going to be blunt. There has been a continued deterioration in relationships between the company and pilots and pilot representatives over the last few years," McCall said in a letter to pilots. "For whatever reasons, management lost sight of how big a difference having great people makes. It has taken its toll on how pilots feel about working for easyJet, building mistrust and a lack of respect."
Within the letter, she talked about failure in the past to meet commitments the company had made, BALPA said in a statement. The package is being put to a membership ballot that will close June 9.
Industrial action by pilots has a crippling impact on an airline's operations. Their skills aren't as easy to replace as, for example, cabin crew, and wet-leasing planes--leased aircraft that come with a full staff--is expensive.
In addition to pay increases there will also be immediate changes to a number of rostering issues "in advance of a more substantial review which already has financial support of GBP1.2 million earmarked and conversion of a number of temporary staff onto permanent contracts," BALPA said in its statement.
One of the agreements between BALPA and easyJet is for an independent review body with an independent chairperson to look at pilot work patterns.
BALPA's General Secretary Jim McAuslan, said, "This is a brave and game-changing approach. There has been some tough talking but I have nothing but praise for the imaginative move made by Carolyn McCall and easyJet's new leadership. But we all know this will not be delivered without a lot of hard work and proper support."
A spokesman for easyJet said the deal on lifestyle--covering the work-life balance and pay conditions--would offer flexibility for its workforce, providing both a mixture of fixed and rostered pilots.
The airline had previously agreed a deal with pilots that encompassed a 1% increase in pay between April 2010 and October 2010.

[full disclosure]

Could someone please send a copy of this news item to both Alan Joyce and David Hall?

[maralinga]

Better off sending it to Steve Creedy, Channel Seven, Channel Nine, et al.

[Slasher]

Last night David Hall, Mark Rindfleish and Ian Oldmeadow met with..

The names just make you want to throw up.

So, that c:mad:t Oldmeadow (http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-145050.html) is back at it again since his
Bodgie-stacked IRC days. He's a mercenary who enjoys
destroying peoples lives.

This time the Feds had better not underestimate that slimy
pr!ck.

[maralinga]

At risk of a slight thread drift, what is the unions position on the further criminalisation of our occupation...ie, the new regs?

[teresa green]

JQ would do well to read the report on the Air France A330 in the paper today. A 400 hr cadet placed in the situation that that young First Officer was, could have easily but not necessarily acted the same way. I have met a couple of these young blokes enthusiastic, intelligent, keen to learn, and have not a bleedin clue. And why would they. At four hundred hours most pilots should be paddock bashing, learning how to stay alive, not responsible for 200 pax plus. These awful findings could be here in this country, if this stupid trend continues. Keep them employed and send them bush, and put fully qualified F/O's with appropriate hours on type in the R/H seat, before we get a smoking black hole, and the witch hunt starts. Commonsense tells you on a 2 man crew on a A330 or A320, if one takes a bait, has a heart attack or stroke, fits, or has some sort of mental breakdown, (ALL of these incidents have happened), a 400 hr Pilot is left to land a fully laden Pax jet on his/her own. Madness. And for what, to save a dollar. If it happens I would like to see the whole board of that airline charged with manslaughter, they don't deserve anything less.

[amos2]

...couldn't agree more!

[rmcdonal]

put fully qualified F/O's with appropriate hours on type in the R/H seat
I'm all for Jetstar Bashing, however could you please qualify this statement? Are the Jetstar FO's not fully qualified?
How do you gain hrs on type with out flying the aircraft? A 3000+hr pilot from the bush has exactly the same number of hrs in an A320 as a newly minted cadet.

[amos2]

You really are a goose, Macca!
A 400 hr cadet has 400 hrs of total experience!
A GA pilot with 3000 hrs + 400 hrs of A320 time has 3400hrs of total experience!
The maths you were taught are lacking somewhat I suggest!
Then again, you're probably a gnxr...which means you're a goose!!
QED

[rmcdonal]

My apologies amos2, I seem to have missed the bit were the 3000hr GA pilot picked up 400hrs in an A320.

[teresa green]

I wont be so hard on you as Amos was. A Pilot who has say 3000 hrs has developed to a degree, airmanship. Not something seen on paper, but a developed sense of what is happening around them, a ability to pick up something that is not quite right, even though there is nothing to indicate that all is not well. This cannot be developed in 400 hrs, I doubt if it can be developed in a Sim, it can only be developed over a period of time by experience. It is invaluable in the job. A example was the Emirates flight out of MEL, that was not producing enough power for take off. A very experienced Captain would have felt that in his arse for want of a better word, long before his instruments told him what was happening, he would have gone for the brakes and had a slow look around to see what was happening, in other words airmanship or experience told him something was not right, right from roll. They did not and got themselves in a right ol fix, that was lucky not to turn into a prang. No pilot is born with that ability, it has to be learnt, some learn faster than others, but most develop it to a degree. A pilot with 400 hrs on a PAX jet is a accident waiting to happen, it is unfair and unjust to expect PAX to fly with such inexperience, and ask your self would you allow your family to be on such a aircraft. There is absolutely nothing wrong with these young pilots, but to teach them on jets is plain ridiculous, they belong on twins in the bush, to learn about themselves and learn how to fly and how to handle a situation. You cannot build a brick wall without a foundation, anymore than a young pilot should be placed in a situation of which he/she has little experience, and a planeload of innocent people sitting behind him/her. Utter madness. Air France is a perfect example.

[rmcdonal]

Thanks teresa green, I may not have expressed myself correctly the first time.
I have no doubt that a 3000hr pilot has better judgement than a 400hr Cadet, and I do not dispute that. From personal experience I fully agree.

I was just curious as to what you define as a fully qualified F/O?
And also how many hrs would be appropriate hours on type in the R/H seat?
And where do you gain these hrs if not on Pax RPT operations?

[aussie027]

Spot on Teresa :ok:

I remember when I was flying I would often feel a small disturbance in "The Force" :E:E and just know something wasn't quite right at times.
A quick re appraisal of everything would quickly find that small error before it turned into a slightly bigger one and so on.

Regarding the Air France crash, from what Ive read so far I just cannot see how despite incorrect/ or disagreeing airspeed readings, multiple system warnings , turbulence or whatever else was going on at time, unless all the AHARS had failed so no reliable attitude info, that "Power+ Attitude=Performance" couldn't be used to maintain a safe flying speed???
Still, it certainly not the first accident/major incident in an RPT jet where when it all hit the fan, the crew did not resort to the very basic principles when hand flying trying to recover from some unusual situation/attitude.:(
If very experienced crews cannot cope in these circumstances I hate to think what a 400 hr pilot would do.

[C.galerita]

94.3% N1 + 3.0 Deg Pitch = M 0.80 = Turb penetration speed = safe flight

A330-200 has only two sets of numbers to remember for unreliable speed indications, FL250 - FL 370 and, above FL 370.

As said in earlier posts, airmanship and experience is the key here. Airlines managers who put low hour pilots in control of these aircraft should be charged with negligence and jailed.

[teresa green]

Mcdonal, a fully qualified F/O would be to me, someone who had come up thru the ranks, either a Airforce or GA pilot, who had some time in a regional, FDS or freighter, had spent some time on turbo props, and had at least 500 hrs jet time. He/she would have had at least 2000 hrs all up. My logs show me at 400 hrs a chipmunk pilot delivering mail to small towns and cattle stations. The chipmunk was a single with dubious tendencies, and it was my teacher. I used to collect the mail in Isa and deliver it as mentioned above. I used to camp out at isolated airstrips, cook a meal with a little kero stove, and sleep under the wing in a swag. Seriously. A great life for a young pilot, and a great way to learn the trade. Even when I was on 747's I relished the days on the Chipmunk, strange, you spend your whole life trying to get ahead on type, and then look back and wish you had enjoyed it more! Human nature I guess.

[bugsquash1]

Amos is right

When the h*ll did Laurie/Terry and the AFAP grow a pair and decide to take on QF?

What did QF management do to to these guys in the union to make them go to court?

What's the bet they don't go through with it.
Make sure the union doesn't screw you and back down boys, as they have done to several groups already.

Bigboeingboy look to the senior long-haul pilots and blame them for the state of aviation today, the "I'm alright Jack" attitude they had is the reason we are where we are today.:yuk:

[rmcdonal]

Thanks for the reply Teresa. Just looking back through my books and 400hrs had me lost somewhere between YKHG and YHOO in a C172 :ok:

[Sue Ridgepipe]

A 400 hr cadet placed in the situation that that young First Officer was, could have easily but not necessarily acted the same way. I have met a couple of these young blokes enthusiastic, intelligent, keen to learn, and have not a bleedin clue. And why would they. At four hundred hours most pilots should be paddock bashing, learning how to stay alive, not responsible for 200 pax plus. These awful findings could be here in this country, if this stupid trend continues.
Teresa I know what you're trying to say, but your argument doesn't make sense. Just to play devil's advocate for a moment, one of the Air France guys had 6500 hours, the other had 2900 hours. So it could happen to anyone here in Aus right now, even without a 400 hour cadet on the flight deck. They had almost 9500 hours between them and it still counted for nothing - they still couldn't stop it from crashing.

[teresa green]

Fine Sue, but my point is why in a two pilot ops have a F/O with such small amount of hours, when you don't have to.You owe to the paying PAX to have two fully qualified Experienced pilots up the front, nothing less is acceptable. As far as that A330 is concerned we are only going on what the paper said not the full report, so it is only speculation at this point, but the suggestion of pulling her nose up, is, well, well what can I say.

[The Green Goblin]

They may have had some hours sue, but it was all watching the autopilot fly the aeroplane.

When I had 2900 hours over 2000 was command, at least 1500 was on multi engine aeroplanes and most was hand flying.

There is the difference between a GA Australian pilot and a European pilot. I doubt the SO had even landed an aeroplane since flight training apart from in the sim!

[Tidbinbilla]

Let's get back on topic, shall we?

AFAP takes legal action against Jetstar.

[DashQ]

Any progress on this?

[Luke SkyToddler]

Actually Alistair .8 is the correct speed for the 330-200, .78 only applies to the -300

[Lawrie Cox]

TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: Ben Bollen, AFAP Jetstar Council Vice-Chair
DATE: 4 June 2011
RE: Jetstar Group Pilot Contracts – Update
As previously advised, on Wednesday 25 May 2011 Jetstar pilot reps met with the company to discuss what the company required to ensure that all Jetstar pilots based in Australia, including the cadets, are employed under our EBA. The company undertook to provide the details of what it is seeking within one week.
After not receiving any response from the company, yesterday (Friday 3 June 2011) I wrote directly to David Hall to express my disappointment at the company’s failure to meet its undertaking. David Hall called me shortly after I sent my letter to explain that they have been working on the requested material and that he expected that the details would be provided to the pilot reps early next week.
We will advise you of the company’s proposal as soon as we receive it. We remain hopeful of finding a workable solution to ensure that all Jetstar pilots will be employed under our current EBA.
Our campaign to stop the Jetstar Group contracts has also involved the considered and effective use of legal action which we are still pursuing. The proceedings we have commenced in the Federal Court of Australia are listed for Directions on Friday 10 June 2011 in Melbourne.
Thank you to everyone who has shown their support for our efforts during this period.
If you are not a union member or are aware of a colleague who has not yet joined a union please encourage them to show their support and join the AFAP. Application forms are available on the website www.afap.org.au via email to [email protected] or by calling the office on (03) 9928 5737.
We will continue to keep you advised of developments.
If you have any questions regarding this matter please contact Simon Lutton at the AFAP on [email protected], ph (03) 9928 5737.
Regards
Ben Bollen
AFAP Jetstar Council Vice-Chair

[Iron Bar]

"As previously advised, on Wednesday 25 May 2011 Jetstar pilot reps met with the company to discuss what the company required to ensure that all Jetstar pilots based in Australia, including the cadets, are employed under our EBA. The company undertook to provide the details of what it is seeking within one week."

Ummm You are respondent to a current legal EBA. An embarrassingly bad one but legal non the less. Why even negotiate with REG? The eba cannot be amended and would you trust this lot with any informal settlement? Either they honor the agreement or as soon as one pilot is employed otherwise, off to court you go. Granted the threat of a glassing did seem effective in the short term.

"Application forms are available on the website www.afap.org.au via email to [email protected] or by calling the office on (03) 9928 5737."

Hooooray Join the team who gave you . . . . . . .

"Seniority will be a MAJOR CONSIDERATION" blah blah blah

[Capt OverUnder]

Iron Bar , where have AIPA been while this is going on? ...........

[Iron Bar]

How about representing the 70% plus of Jq pilots who are AIPA members. Happy to be corrected but I believe REG, Jq, AFAP and FWA do not recognise AIPA as respondent to the Jetstar pilots agreement.

If that is the case, this remains an issue for AFAP.

Having said that you can be sure they have the support of AIPA and it's members.

[HF3000]

I understand AIPA are also preparing a case, also working with AFAP on the issue.

AIPA don't seem to advertise their activities on pprune, for better or worse.

[flap relief]

Not sure how many of you are aware but the reason our industry and T&C/EBA are going down the toilet and why our management are able to relentlessly shaft us without any form of lubrication is SENIORITY.

I know it works when it's in your favour but believe me when I say, it is what's causing the rot and misery we are all witnessing.

If you were able to move around the globe (and our industry is a global one) it would be such a pleasure to walk out the door from JQ,SQ,CX,KA whomever and go where your skill set was needed and to who was prepared to pay for it.

The trouble is no one wants to give away their precious seniority. The managers, believe it or not, are not unintelligent and recognise this fact so will happily give you another rogering particularly while things are tough.

There is not another industry in the world that does what we do. In fact if you mention it to another professional (banker/lawyer/doctor) it does not compute. They literally cannot understand the concept. To them the ability to move is what makes their career.

I hope this generates some discussion. I assume the young guns will object but the more learned amongst the fraternity will hopefully see some perspective and add some pearls of wisdom.

happy landings flap relief

[breakfastburrito]

There is not another industry in the world that does what we do. In fact if you mention it to another professional (banker/lawyer/doctor) it does not compute. They literally cannot understand the concept. To them the ability to move is what makes their career.
I'm not going to tackle the question of seniority rights & wrongs head on. What I will add is an empirical observation is that the seniority system seems to be reducing of its own accord, through an expansion of the contract market. Interestingly the now discredited jetstar contract seems to barely mention seniority. Even in the jetstar EBA (http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?2i8lgoerjhiumyk), seniority is only a "major consideration", for promotions.

You may think that by getting rid of seniority you will be able to get an advantage over management, that is static thinking. Managers will never willing cede control over their workforce (human nature). They have already given us a glimpse of the new methods, which actually increases control - "debt servitude", where you owe your employer for your training.

This enhances their control, because managers can now play one pilot off against another for promotion, basings & equipment changes & "special contracts" & even termination.
One pilot job website indicates a bond of 15 years for AirAsia Cadet scholarships (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Air_Asia).

I am unaware of many bankers/lawyers/doctors who are bonded to their employer to pay for their training for any substantial length of time. Mostly they are able to use the taxpayer (HECS) system to fund their training, which gives them flexibility to change employers regularly, without having to fund a lump sum to buy themselves out of their contract.

Be careful what you wish for.

[The Kelpie]

Good luck in court today AFAP!!!

[Anthill]

Not sure how many of you are aware but the reason our industry and T&C/EBA are going down the toilet and why our management are able to relentlessly shaft us without any form of lubrication is SENIORITY.




Fully agree Flap Relief. Seniority distorts the supply/demand curve of the labour market to our detriment. Why else have our T & Cs degraded when the demand for our services have increased.

The last 2 companies that I have worked for had no Seniority clauses and enabled me to increase my salary at each move. Incidently, I have never paid for a type rating either.

[KRUSTY 34]

Sorry for the thread drift But...

Antill: At your last 2 employers, were they able to pay higher salaries, or did you achieve fast promotion because of a "Superior Skill-set". If so, then the pilots you jumped over must have been of an inferior standard?

[Lawrie Cox]

TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: AFAP Jetstar Council
DATE: 10 June 2011
RE: Jetstar Group Pilot Contracts – Update

JUDGE ORDERS COMPANY TO STOP OFFERING INDIVIDUAL CONTRACTS

We are pleased to advise that late yesterday Justice Marshall of the Federal Court signed the following consent orders:

“Upon the Respondent undertaking to the Court that it will not make any further offers of employment, before 1 September 2011, to either First Officers or Cadet Pilots under the contracts referred to in the Statement of Claim, the Court orders that:

1. On or before 4:00 pm Friday 1 July 2011 the Respondent file and serve a Defence.

2. On or before 4.00 pm on Friday 15 July 2011 the Applicant file and serve any Reply.

3. A further Directions Hearing be listed at 9.30am on Friday 22 July 2011.

4. There be liberty for both parties to apply on reasonable notice.

5. Costs be reserved.”

The practical effect of the above orders is that we have achieved the aim of our application for interlocutory relief (an injunction to stop the company offering further contracts) while the matter is determined. The contracts already offered to the 23 cadet pilots will continue to be the subject of our legal action and we will keep you advised as the matter progresses.

While our legal case against the Jetstar Group Pty Limited contracts continues, your pilot representatives have been meeting with the company to discuss the employment of all Australian based Jetstar pilots by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited under your EBA. To this end, a series of fortnightly meetings have been programmed. As previously advised, we remain hopeful of achieving a workable solution that ensures that all Australian based Jetstar pilots are employed under our EBA.

If you have any questions regarding this matter and/or to join the AFAP, please contact Simon Lutton at the AFAP on [email protected], ph (03) 9928 5737.

Regards
AFAP Jetstar Council

[Popgun]

Sanity, fairness and the rule of law prevails.

Well done to all involved!!!

PG

[KRUSTY 34]

Point 1 of the ruling..."Respondant file and serve a Defense." How the hell do you defend the indefensable?

Great result guys. Keep up the good work.

As for the clowns responsible for this mess, D!CKHE@DS!!! Maybe time to get on with growing the business. If that's at all possible with such a bunch of incompetants at the helm. Note to board: Sack Buchanan. Sack HR. Sack Joyce. Sack Hall. And while you're at it, divest youself of that treacherous Rindflesh!

Maybe then you can stop throwing good money after bad! :rolleyes:

There. I feel better now.:ok:

[The Kelpie]

JUDGE ORDERS COMPANY TO STOP OFFERING INDIVIDUAL CONTRACTS

Is that true?

The order says that Jetstar gave an undertaking to the court that it (Jetstar Group Pty Ltd) would not to issue the individual contracts before 1st September to first officers and cadet pilots. The company (note that the company is not Jetstar Airways Pty Ltd) had given this undertaking to the union anyhow. I doubt that the parties even turned up at court given that the order was signed the day before.

Seems to me there was nothing ordered by the court other than a timetable for the submission of a defence and reply. I also note that the voluptuary undertaking was very specific and rather suspiciously did not include the rank of captain. Are FO's about to be offered upgrades on the group contract??

Neither has an Order been made by the court against Jetstar Airways Pty Ltd to stop taking 'Agency' staff from say PARC (or JQ Group) or at least ensuring that individuals from the agencies receive EBA level of remuneration rather than employ on the EBA.

Guys, do not start celebrating yet!!

Afap, whilst i wholeheartedly support what you are trying to achieveI hope You and your legal team are covering all the bases!!

Watching this one with great interest

The Kelpie

[Pukka]

Laurie can you address the point made by Kelpie.

I am concerned the good old AFAP is once again misleading Australian pilots.

[Pukka]

Source: Royal Bank of Scotland:


The news broke on Friday, but was quite widely reported over the weekend was the news that EasyJet's pilots have agreed a new pay and scheduling pact following a recommendation from cockpit union British Airline Pilots Association. The deal comprises a 4% salary increase and a 5% rise in sector pay, but the union flags that crucially the agreement also goes some way to resolving some of EasyJet pilots' long-term concerns about rostering and scheduling. The union credits chief executive Carolyn McCall will a "brave" decision to take on the operational difficulties and discuss a "gamechanging" partnership. The two sides will work under an independent chairman to resolve any outstanding problems. The ballot resulted in 85% voting in favour of the deal, on a turnout of 76%.

Obviously the 4-5% pay deal is not cheap but will, we imagine, have been factored into company guidance. The good cop bad cop partnership of CEO McCall and ops Director Warwick Brady looks to have worked well.
Plainly the market will be very focused on revenue development through the summer and on whether bad cop Warwick and CFO Chris Kennedy can manage crew costs going forward after this not inexpensive settlement. But this episode looks to earned the CEO some kudos and should have
bought the company a good dose of goodwill from the cockpit crew that should help secure the operation through whatever ATC strikes, storms, volcanoes, bean sprout pandemics or other challenges the world throws at the business this summer.

[Lawrie Cox]

TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: AFAP Jetstar Council
DATE: 15 June 2011
RE: Jetstar Group Pilot Contracts – Update No. 12

SUCCESSFUL LEGAL STRATEGY

In our recent Briefings we have been stressing the need for all Jetstar pilots to show a strong and united front against the Jetstar Group Pilot Contracts.

As part of this, your AFAP Jetstar pilot representatives have been working with the AIPA Jetstar pilot representatives to share information and counter this attack on our EBA.

We have also received some enquiries regarding why our legal proceedings have been commenced on the basis that Jetstar Group Pty Limited has or proposes to contravene the Air Pilots Award.

Effective and sophisticated industrial relations practice requires strategy and the need to be able to separate the wood from the trees.

Jetstar has given an undertaking in the Federal Court last Friday that it will not employ FOs and cadets under its contract until 1 September 2011, by which time the case will be in the final stages of preparation for trial.

That means no new employees outside the EBA.

The net effect of the AFAP action has been to take away the company's ploy to get around the EBA.

We have every expectation that the AFAP action will be successful, and if it is, the contracts will be dead in the water. The savings which the company was trying to achieve by reducing EBA conditions will be unavailable and therefore the incentive to avoid the EBA will be gone.

At the same time your pilot representatives are continuing discussions with the company regarding the employment of all Australian based Jetstar pilots under our EBA.

As you can see, our strategy is successfully addressing all the core issues.
If you have any questions regarding this matter and/or to have a copy of the signed and sealed Federal Court Order of Justice Marshall stopping Jetstar Group from offering the contracts emailed to you, please contact Simon Lutton at the AFAP on [email protected], ph (03) 9928 5737.

Regards
AFAP Jetstar Council

[HF3000]

As part of this, your AFAP Jetstar pilot representatives have been working with the AIPA Jetstar pilot representatives to share information and counter this attack on our EBA.

Great to hear. Keep it up, AFAP and AIPA.

Australia-wide pilot unity just around the corner. A big thanks especially to Mr Buchanan. Not sure who he's working for right now, but it ain't Jetstar!

[SPEEDI]

So all cadets in England/Hong Kong are going to come back to no jobs? Ouch...

Im sure Cadet applications will decrease dramatically now..

[Nothing but blue sky]

They would decrease dramatically if they were told anything..! From what I know the cadets don't get told anything, just don't worry about it, it will work itself out... The first group are only months away from going to HK and still haven't even met "anyone" from Jetstar!

Keep up the good work AFAP and AIPA, we are with you all the way!

[thrustpig]

Cadets will now probably be diverted to 3K.

[The Kelpie]

The first group are only months away from going to HK and still haven't even met "anyone" from Jetstar!

That's because the course is a designer course from Oxford and not a cadetship in the true sense of the word. Simply they have nothing to do with jetstar until course completion -if they are lucky and there are jobs available.

If no jobs available -welcome to poverty street!!

The only time you see jetstar anywhere near Oxford or CTC is for PR related stuff and photoshoots.

Oxford makes its money selling expensive flight training 'cadetships', priced way above average that, when the chips are down, are no more authentic than the Louis Vitton' handbag that you buy from the little shop in Bali!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[The Kelpie]

DEC = Direct Entry Captain. See below from AIPA from a meeting on 9 June between JQ and AIPA over the employment of pilots outside the JQ EBA:

"At this meeting, AIPA sought a commitment from the Company that it would not employ these Cadets and First Officers outside of the EBA. Unfortunately, the Company did not provide any such commitment. Instead, the Company demanded “flexibilities” which included:
the ability to integrate overseas Captains into the Jetstar seniority list where vacancies are created by existing Captains leaving;
the ability to import pilots from overseas and roster them to work within Jetstar to address seasonal fluctuations in demands; and
the ability to impose bond requirements on Cadets which are more onerous than those set out in the EBA."

Lawrie

Have the same demands been made of the Federation?

Were the Federation in attendance at the same meeting?

I told you there was something sneaky on foot with regards to the rank of captain.

More to Follow

The Kelpie
Mor

[Di_Vosh]

Two points:

1. One step at a time. This is about the Federal court decision on the employment of FO's and cadets. It's unlikely that this ruling would include a determination on what could be a very different legal case re: the employment of foreign DEC's.

2. I told you there was something sneaky on foot with regards to the rank of captain.

Here's a thought. Rather than just posting this on Prune, how about give Lawrie a call and speak with him? You seem to have some inside information on this, so why not give the Feds a leg up? Or does it make you feel better to gob off here?

DIVOSH!

[Kangaroo Court]

Easily the most successful campaign of unity within the pilot groups of Australian carriers within recent years.

The cadet program needs to be exposed more publicly for the scam it is though.

[The Kelpie]

Or does it make you feel better to gob off here?

Not at all.

[Tony the Tiler]

Have the same demands been made of the Federation?

Were the Federation in attendance at the same meeting?

I told you there was something sneaky on foot with regards to the rank of captain.

It looks like everyone is jumping at shadows. Of course Jetstar want to hire DEC’s on contract into Australia, however as yet they haven’t and have no contract on offer. What is the AFAP to do, launch a legal action on the hunch that Jetstar are up to something regarding Captains? That sounds like something AIPA would do (stupid and probably thrown out of court). Why AIPA have criticized the Feds in their latest Insights propaganda is a mystery. They crap on the AFAP’s strategy – yet they have done nothing to help the cadets or stop the contract recruitment.

The AFAP have successfully stopped recruitment of all contract labour in Australia via a Federal Court order. They have a legal action proceeding with dates set down for Jetstar to file a defense and the AFAP to file a rebuttal. The case is strong – ring the AFAP or the pilot reps. They even have legal precedent backing up their case. The bond AND the training repayment schedule ARE NOT legally enforceable under a common law contract. This means that the cadets (or any pilot on a common law contract) can walk away from Jetstar tomorrow and not pay a cent back to Jetstar. This idea has legal precedence in the Federal Court. This completely undermines Jetstars plan to employ pilots on contract. Jetstar have no way of legally compelling the cadets to pay back the $80K (Advanced) or $150K (ab initio) or FO’s 40K.

Jetstar have been completely blindsided by the AFAP’s action which simply states that a common law contract must comply with the Air Pilots Award. This premise has legal precedent. Jetstar were probably expecting a sham contracting argument that has no precedent under the current legislation. If this (sham contracting) argument is lost would set a very dangerous precedent for the Qantas group. The AFAP can still run the sham contracting argument – but it is not without risk. Why would you blunder into a fight when your opponent is expecting and anticipating your every move? (again – wait for AIPA’s next move:ugh:) For the moment, I cannot fault the strategy of the AFAP. They have stopped contract recruitment, and are applying the screws via their continuing court action to bring the cadets under the EBA.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

OK I am certainly no expert by any stretch but, if Jetstar cannot legally force employees to pay back the various bonds and training costs, then surely no other operator can either? Almost every employer who pays for your initial endo places a bond on you for 2 years or so.

SN

[The Kelpie]

I did not intend to rubbish the actions of AFAP, I have said previously that I support them wholeheartedly.

The point I intended to make was that the statements made to AIPA at their meeting seemed totally at odds with the 'undertaking' that JQ management have given to AFAP. Now I was under the impression that the two unions were working together on this.

To clarify, I have absolutely no problem with the legal strategy.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Nothing but blue sky]

SN

"OK I am certainly no expert by any stretch but, if Jetstar cannot legally force employees to pay back the various bonds and training costs, then surely no other operator can either? Almost every employer who pays for your initial endo places a bond on you for 2 years or so."

I could be wrong but I think what TTT is saying is that they cannot be bound on the separate contracts.. When employed on something other than the Air pilots Award or EBA..

NBBS

[Kangaroo Court]

Correct.

In the United States, the employment contracts are not enforcable now due to precedents involving judgments of attempting "Indentured Servitude".

Some operators have asked applicants to sign loan agreements with the company acting as guarantor, but the courts hve dismissed many of these in judgement, concluding that they are more of the same.

I can see a day coming very soon where ALL forms of bonding become illegal in the work place.

[zone]

From "Rural Affairs and Transport References Committee
Pilot training and airline safety; and
Consideration of the Transport Safety
Investigation Amendment (Incident Reports)
Bill 2010" (Tabled today)

2.290
However, the committee was concerned by evidence provided over the disparate terms and conditions of cadet schemes. Some members of the committee were particularly concerned over the terms and conditions for the Jetstar cadet scheme.

[Kangaroo Court]

They're about to pull the cadet training...

Underqualified individuals with no real world experience flying over an innocent population, doe not bode well for politicians or regulators.

Offering dual instruction in an Airbus or Boeing should never be considered a good idea.

[Popgun]

They're about to pull the cadet training...

Any info on the reliability of the source of that gem?

Fingers crossed...it would be a more than reasonable response to the madness that has crept in to this industry...

[Nothing but blue sky]

KC,

Not sure on your sources but I know A few people from OAA and a couple of the Cadets. They seem to have put it behind them believing that it will take years to implement some of these recommendations.. Could be true since the inquiry is only the first hurdle and CASA will have to make a few changes internally first to get things moving..

If I'm not mistaken their is another large group of cadets starting at the end of July.. OAA what to keep pumping them out, to make money, so they definitely won't be slowing down unless they are forced to.. Do you really think BB and AJ care, there are so many other shady practices going on at these places! Unless it is written as Law (and they can still pay them less) the charade will continue..

NBBS

[KRUSTY 34]

Be carefull all you young wannabes "putting it all behind you". The Federal Government shut down the NT live beef export market overnight, once it became too hot politicaly!

The words of Senator X as relayed to him from professional pilots "better a Senate enquirey now, than a Royal Commission later" must be ringing in Albeniese's ears.

If you continue to listen to the Buchanans and the Joyces of the world, you will be heading not only for financial ruin, but zero career options as well. Wake up and smell the coffee before it's too late.

[mcgrath50]

The problem is people care about the cute :mad: cattle, they don't care about rich boy pilots like ourselves :ugh:

[The Green Goblin]

The problem is people care about the cute cattle, they don't care about rich boy pilots like ourselves

They certainly care about the cattle behind us however!
*

[KRUSTY 34]

But they may care about safety related press reports regarding the airline they normally fly on.

Politicians tend to get nervous about that sort of thing also, especially if it's the airline they normally travel on, and doubly so if it comes anywhere near their own portfolio.

I think you'll find that's the point I'm making.

[Lawrie Cox]

TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: Ben Bollen
DATE: 1 July 2011
RE: Jetstar Group Pilot Contracts – Update
As previously advised, while our legal case against the Jetstar Group Pty Limited contracts continues, your pilot representatives have been meeting with the company to discuss the employment of all Australian based Jetstar pilots by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited under our EBA.
Regardless of our current differences we believe it is important to keep the communication channels with the company open.
Yesterday we had another such meeting. The meeting focussed on flexibilities (particularly in relation to the employment of part-time pilots) which exist within the framework of the current EBA. These meetings are exploratory in nature and without prejudice. As a result I cannot go into the detail of all items discussed and information provided.
Unlike previous meetings, Jetstar allowed the industrial/legal representatives from AFAP and AIPA to attend the meeting. Simon Lutton was unavailable due to a FWA hearing in Sydney and Deanna Cain, an AFAP in-house lawyer who usually deals with Virgin Group AFAP matters, attended the meeting with me. Her experience with the introduction of part-time arrangements at Virgin was particularly valuable.
The next meeting to discuss the employment of all Australian based Jetstar pilots under your EBA has been scheduled for Wednesday next week.
You should also note that a few weeks ago we approached individual AFAP members in each Jetstar base to act as Base Reps – in order to improve our communication to and from the pilot group. There is another AFAP Jetstar Briefing dated 1 July 2011 on the AFAP website providing the name of your respective base rep.
I am very pleased with the increasing level of interest and involvement that is now evident among us as Jetstar/AFAP members.
If you have any questions regarding this matter please let your AFAP Jetstar Base Rep know, ask any of the AFAP Jetstar Council members or contact Simon Lutton at the AFAP on [email protected], ph (03) 9928 5737.
Regards
Ben Bollen
AFAP Jetstar Council Vice-Chair
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TO: All Jetstar Pilots
FROM: AFAP Jetstar Council
DATE: 1 July 2011
RE: Jetstar Base Reps
As you would be aware, our campaign to stop the Jetstar Group contracts and ensure all Australian based pilots are employed under your EBA has involved pilot meetings, comments to the media, lobbying of government and the considered and effective use of legal action.
Our campaign has also highlighted the value of accurate and efficient communication within the pilot group. With this in mind, in early June we approached individual AFAP members in each Jetstar base to act as Base Reps – in order to improve our communication to and from the pilot group.
The Base Rep’s role builds on the role of the AFAP Jetstar Council and involves distributing information and relaying feedback from your base to the AFAP, Council and other base reps (to inform and be informed). We want to ensure that we are communicating effectively – providing information, listening to concerns and answering questions – with the pilots in every base. This is especially important at a time of such rapid change in the Australian aviation landscape.
The confirmed AFAP Jetstar Base Reps in each base are currently:

Base AFAP Jetstar Base Rep
Melbourne: T C
Sydney: A S
S.E. Queensland: A K & J D (until Dec 2011)
Cairns: M C & J D (from 2012)
Perth: B M
Newcastle: G M & G S
Darwin: TBC
If you are able to provide any assistance to your Base Rep please let us or your Base Rep know. If you have any other questions regarding the above please feel free to contact one of us or Simon Lutton at the AFAP on phone: (03) 9928 5737, or email [email protected].
Regards
AFAP Jetstar Council