Qantas Pilots, You Are Losing The Battle.

[Sunfish]

AIPA, unless you can quickly and comprehensively counter this sort of management PR spin, you have lost your battle for public opinion.

Qantas management is painting you as a bunch of stuck up, overpaid, Prima Donnas as this article in the Herald Sun demonstrates rather well. You must counter this, not "explain" it!

Bear in mind that the average person reads just the first few paragraphs and then switches off.


If you strike with public opinion against you, the Government will most definitely not side with you because they won't want to see their poll numbers dragged down. For all we know, Tony Abbott could make a pilot strike into a cause celebre and bring down the Gillard Government.

You must get your message out! Have you not hired a professional spin doctor? Don't try and do it yourself!


A source close to negotiations told the Herald Sun that the pilots' negotiating body - the Australian & International Pilots Association - demanded two free international trips every year for its members in premium economy, with priority given for upgrades to business and first class tickets.

This could cost Qantas $15 million a year.

They also want discounted Qantas Club memberships for family members and increased penalty rates for flying different types of aircraft.

But in perhaps their most audacious demand, pilots also want the opportunity to determine who travels.

In the proposed AIPA agreement handed to Qantas, it was demanded that the "pilot in command shall, in consultation with the CSM (customer service manager), have the ability to allocate one curtained economy class seat at his/her sole discretion".

The bid is said to have angered Qantas, with CEO Alan Joyce yesterday admitting the company's international business - which employs the 1700 pilots - is losing money.

The Herald Sun believes that if the proposed new penalties are paid, some pilots will earn up to $500,000 a yea




Qantas pilots bid for first class deal | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/qantas-pilots-bid-for-first-class-deal/story-e6frf7jo-1226057844118)

[Chronic Snoozer]

I can't see how the seat demand would 'cost' $15 million a year. The seats would be empty otherwise wouldn't they?

I wonder how many dumb management decisions it would take to come up with $15 million in costs?

Everyone would have to admit that allowing such a crass generalisation as 'The Herald Sun believes.....senior pilots would earn $500K' can't do anything but harm.

[HF3000]

Agreed Sunfish,

Pilots need to decide whether they are battling the offshoring of jobs or not. Confusing the issue with crapola just gives AJ the huge ammunition he needs to sway the public opinion.

Get real AIPA. Don't fight the staff travel issue and the offshoring issue simultaneously. Keep it to jobs and win the moral high ground.

[PammyAnderson]

Losing the battle big time!!!!!
I am in the uk at the moment and there was a snippet in the news over here. All that you could notice was the bits that said engineers wanting free qantas club memberships and qantas pilots wanting free seats for friends and 500k salaries. Both unions listen...within 2 days I can guarantee the public perception has swung. Better get smart and very quickly...

[framer]

I agree you are giving them too much ammo.
Don't make it about money, QF can then generalise about salaries (some Senior Captains would be on the equivelent of nearly $500k according to their own bar room talk if you comparied it to post-tax money in the bank) don't give them the opportunity to make that a talking point.
Sacrifice the staff travel etc for the next round in three years.
Make history by turning up to the table with Australias simplest ever wish-list. One item. Job security.That will show the public how serious this is.
And as Sunfish says, get a professional and get in the media or it's a lost battle. Remember that millions of Ausi's are raising families on $60k a year, they can't be expected to take your side when they look at the money side of things. It's not human nature.

[Sunfish]

Chronic Snoozer:

I can't see how the seat demand would 'cost' $15 million a year. The seats would be empty otherwise wouldn't they?

It doesn't matter a flying *** what you think, know, understand.

It is what the public thinks!!! NOT YOU!!!!

There is no point explaining words like "sub load", etc., all the public knows is that they have to pay thousands of dollars for a seat, and you greedy bastards want one for free!

For goodness sake hire a professional to do your spin for you. Patient explanation and reasoning about empty seats will get you absolutely nowhere!

[rodchucker]

You are losing on on a number of fronts:

1. Rat is controlling spin.

2. There is only one side out there.

3. There is NOTHING presenting any balance or focus for debate.

Pretty one sided battle from these eyes and you guys deserve much better. This is not a practice run so either get your act together or be prepared for consequences that none of us will like.

[mcgrath50]

Exactly I almost died when I heard these Qantas Club demands from both sides. Are you losing focus?! ALAEA Fed Sec, what the hell were you thinking sir? (I single you out because I know you will read this, but equally can be said for AIPA). It seems that you are clouding the job security issue.

If you can't get that through, you won't have a job to enjoy QC membership with.

[73to91]

From the Daily Telegraph in Sydney today:


QANTAS pilots are demanding they get a guaranteed seat for their wives or kids or anyone else they want for any international flight, as they step up their industrial war with the national carrier.

As the pilots' union plans to fire the first salvo for strike action this week, they are also demanding a "curtained" seat for their partner or child or any other nominated person on any one of the airline's 27,500 international flights.

The Australian International Pilots Association is expected to start the process for strike action as soon as Friday, after giving Qantas a deadline of tomorrow night to come to the table with job security guarantees.

If that deadline passes they are expected to lodge an application with Fair Work Australia for a blind ballot - meaning a strike is imminent in the next 30 days.

This would be potentially catastrophic for the airline, whose international services already run at a loss and are heavily subsidised by their domestic operations.

The pilots said their concerns were about the outsourcing of jobs overseas - a move Qantas denies making. However documents obtained by The Daily Telegraph reveal they are also pursuing other perks such as guaranteed next-to-nothing overseas travel for their partners, children or friends.

An extract from the enterprise bargaining agreement claim the pilots are putting to Qantas states: "The pilot in command shall, in consultation with the CSM [customer service manager], have the ability to allocate one curtained economy class seat at his/her discretion."

The "curtained" seat refers to a rest seat that would otherwise be available to cabin crew on a long-haul flight.

It was previously voted on among the crew as to who would get the seat, but pilots are demanding that they now get to pick and choose above everyone else on board.

They would only have to pay one-tenth of the regular cost of a fare, making a return trip to LA a mere $173 based on current prices.

Qantas declined to comment on specific EBA demands but a spokesman said: "The pilots' union is making unreasonable claims which would cost a lot of money and jeopardise the jobs of Qantas' 35,000 employees.

"Rather than threatening strikes we would encourage the union to negotiate a fair and reasonable agreement."

AIPA acting president Captain Richard Woodward said: "It's standard practice in the global aviation industry for flight and cabin crew fatigue management. These seats are never used by paying passengers and are more accurately called 'crew rest seats'."
and there's a poll to go with it.

Qantas pilots' bid for family flights | thetelegraph.com.au (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/qantas-pilots-bid-for-family-flights/story-e6freuzr-1226057808860)

I just selected Yes to see the poll results - only 133 votes but 111 answered Yes to the question "Is special seating for a pilot's family too much?"

So yes, you won't get any support from the public and not much from within QANTAS as well.

[Ultralights]

the worst part is, well, apart from the fact that the PR war has already been lost, is that the public perception resulting from all the spin BS, is that it results in painting all pilots with the same brush! i have had people tell me i must be rich when i tell them im a Raaus/GA flying instructor. and they dont believe me when i tell them i only earn about 10 to 15 per hour.

though there is a story in todays SMH in sydney that actually has a pay figure listed
"The secretary of the Australian and International Pilots Association, Steve Anderson, said the new contracts, under which cadets could accumulate a training debt of $150,000 to the airline while earning as little as $34,000 a year, would place Jetstar at the bottom of the international scale and would lead to transient, less experienced pilots."

Pilots claim new contracts put safety at risk (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/pilots-claim-new-contracts-put-safety-at-risk-20110517-1erjg.html)

its a very small victory, but judging by the fact that there is a POLL on these demads, then you are already royally screwed.

[framer]

Ok, you guys now need to feed an article that counters that and have a poll also, any ideas on what the question would be in your poll ?

[xjt]

after having demanded some answers from Aipa i can see that we as a group are on a uphill battle...These guys are still stuck back in the late 80'S somewhere and still harbour a lot of the sentiment and animosity from back then, neither of which is going to help any of us in this current environment.....Why is not everybody demanding these guys to hire professionals to deal with the media and the public perception.....why the hell do we all pay dues.....for f**ks sake get on with it.....

[stewser89]

It's funny how little tidbits like this just pop up and get into the media.

Unfortunately whether they are cherry picked or not is irrelevant. The public or the boneheads that read the soc of the paper that read the telegraph (like me :O) Will only read

Two international flights a year
$500k a year

and conclude that all pilots are overpaid, demanding, whining systems managers:ugh::ugh::ugh:

So is the curtained economy seat an economy seat or in the rest quarters or both depending on A/C?

Btw isn't that the whole point of negotiating start high and compromise until you get what you actually wanted?

Cameron

[Dragun]

Poll is at 50/50 now. Lots of ppruners on there? :E

(...and why would you click 'yes' to see the results? You can click 'no' (like I did) to see the results too.)

[ampclamp]

What the boneheads out there in telegraphland fail to understand is the negotiating process. Anything that gets put on the table has to be negotiated off the table. All union claims include nice to have snowflakes chance in hell articles.The company also has the 'no chance' requests.One of those takes out one of yours. If you go cap in hand with very basic demands you get sfa.

The qf pr achine is well paid up and rehearsed. Countering it with how much the execs are getting for very poor results is fighting fire with fire.Remember geoff exiting with 11 million? remember AJ getting 44% as he walked in the door? They get multiples of the top paid pilot and are not responsible for anything like you guys take on daily. 500K is a lot of dough and few get it.The vast majority of pilots get far far less.
The average / median / mean pilot I suspect gets paid quite poorly.

[PCFlyer]

It doesn't matter a flying *** what you think, know, understand.

It is what the public thinks!!! NOT YOU!!!!

Sunfish is so right it's not funny! Its all about public perception.


Hmm ... the difference I see is

Managment deal in spin, general fluffing, and, well, bull****e each and every single day. To their managers, to employees, to the media.

Pilots and Engineers on the other hand only work in fact while on the job.

Think about this ... If you were too high and too fast on approach no amount of spin is going to fix it right? Because anything you say will get shot down. Its all about the hard facts.
Whereas the line from management might go something like "management would not accept they were too high and denied they were too fast. In fact we carried the extra height and speed incase we needed to make a missed approach which is exactly what we ended up doing. All involved Management should now pat themselves on the back for such great foresight."

Pilots and engineers need to start thinking in this way when talking to the media!!! Whenever I see a line quoted from some AIPA rep I literally cringe.



Now I guess anyone these days can take out a half page space in the major newpapers? What could you do with this space?

What about reminding everyone of certain problems Qantas have had with their aircraft since outsourcing maintenance overseas. Such as
The oxygen bottle explosion on the 747, and
The QF32 engine explosion


Well Mr and Mrs General Public ... guess what?! Qantas now wish to outsource the pilots too

What do you think would have been the outcome of QF32 if an outsourced Indian pilot with a fake licence and a 200 hour cadet pilot had been at the controls?!


Would you let your family fly the "new" Qantas?

[Car RAMROD]

I wonder how many flights management and board members get per year, and the benefits for their families? They probably get guaranteed Business or even First class. Even 1 of those is worth more than the 2 economy trips that have supposedly been asked for!

Maybe a good place to start with the spin.

[Sunfish]

For Chrissake get professional PR help or you might as well shut down now.

[FullySickBro]

I'll put my hand up and contribute to an advertising campaign.

The punchline has to be short and sweet and attention grabbing.

How about:

---

"Hello this is your pilot speaking, would you like fries with your order?"

Alan Joyce wants to pay the pilot of your flight the same as a student flipping burgers.

Are you happy about your life being Mc valued?

---

A little dramatic perhaps, but the Qf PR department already well and truly started down that path..

[rmcdonal]

Just on a side note:
That poll is deliberately misleading. Even tho more than 50% have voted NO the poll looks like double the number have voted YES. :suspect:

[Swimbetweentheflags]

You have to protect the McNuggets at all times !!!

These guys are punching way below the belt now. Spin spin spin lies lies deceit deceit !!!

If the Qantas group is not performing then I vote the first thing that should be cut is the execs over inflated pay packets and bonuses !!
Lead from the top AJ :ok:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Exactly I almost died when I heard these Qantas Club demands from both sides. Are you losing focus?! ALAEA Fed Sec, what the hell were you thinking sir? (I single you out because I know you will read this, but equally can be said for AIPA). It seems that you are clouding the job security issue.


Yep reading now. I agree with these posts entirely. I didn't make up the claim list, our members did, its my job to secure the best deal possible. Just to make one thing clear, Alan and the spokesmodel are lying about much of this. The Engineer claim is not for free membership, it's about the ability of our members to purchase membership as can 20,000,000 other Aussies. The wage figuures they are spruiking are fabricated.

Qantas can attack as much as they like. Our powder is saved and ready for when the time comes. Every time they lie publically, we will expose more poor maintenance practices from overseas to drag the debate back to the real issues. It's up to them really about how much they want out there, remember of course, the next engine failure is just around the corner.

I think back to 89, as an apprentice I was partially removed from the pilots dispute. All I remember is that they wanted limos to work. Right or wrong, that is what I remember. It's correct to say that public perception is important and elaborate claims do not look good. I'm sure AIPA are aware of what is going on but I will discuss this with them when we next meet.

[airtags]

very confused story that was poorly written and badly verified - a good demo why newspapers should not outsource sub editors - 'jetstarise newspapers? and why Unions need to play the media game better than the likes of Ms Worthless and the little bloke.

Interresting in that the Tele mash is confusingly speaking of access to the CC's crew rest seats - which actually raises the question about where is the CC Union in all of this? - I know I did not ask for a curtained seat for Mrs Airtags -

Just a thought though - Pilots Engineers, the Ramp, the Ground Staff - they all seem to be rightly putting the heat on Q's offshoring - yet CC Union has not even popped a comment up on pprune.

AT



AT

[Iron Bar]

On the contrary. I'm not really concerned by this tabloid trash.

Because i can only ask . . . . .


IS THAT ALL YA GOT????


They spun the same crap yesterday with the engineers and Q club.


IS THAT ALL YOU CRETINS HAVE???


Evil engineers and pilots negotiating for lounge access and jump seats.


IS THAT REALLY ALL YOU INCOMPETENT INDIVIDUALS HAVE?


Great spin idiots. Really well timed because the last time i looked, NOTHING IS HAPPENING!!! I don't see terminals full of pissed off passengers. I don't see engineers refusing to meet planes. Todays tabloid crap is forgotten tomorrow. Daily telegraph pole, a most credible measure of public sentiment. Fu*%!ng spare me.

These idiots have shot their bolt WAY too early. Do you think the editors of these most reputable papers will want to run the same crap again when there really is some action????? THINK TIMING!!!! You can rest assured ALEA and AIPA are. Something about a senate inquiry due to report next month? Hmmm can't see Qantas club or jump seats making the headlines then idiots.


SHOW US WHAT YA GOT!!!!!


Oh I forgot. They already did when the engineers flushed em out last week.


PADDY AND REG YOU ARE FINISHED!


The staff have had it and are coming from below (sic) and the BIG INSTITUTIONAL SHAREHOLDERS are coming from above.

Thats right, SHOW US HOW YOU HAVE IMPROVED THE VALUE AND RETURNS FOR THE SHAREHOLDERS YOU INCOMPETENTS! $2.11 today, wonder where it will be this time next month?


KEEP THE FAITH MY FRIENDS


These shallow individuals have nothing and we have not yet begun to fight. Our leaders are smarter than the liars, cheats and rip off merchants that presume to run OUR airline.

We dealt with Dixon and we will deal with this ridiculous crew also.

[TIMA9X]

from Aipa i can see that we as a group are on a uphill battle...These guys are still stuck back in the late 80'S somewhere and still harbour a lot of the sentiment and animosity from back then,Suggest, leave the 80s thing alone, I don't believe it is relevant, not one bit. Most of the young journalists writing on the news desk don't really know anything about it. The main thrust of the argument is the the off shoring of Australian jobs. Pilots are always on the move, hard for them to defend themselves when the Q PR department has all day to dream up and write crap.

Sunfish is right, get a Spin doctor on the case.

These guys are punching way below the belt now. Spin spin spin lies lies deceit deceit !!!Spot on, Qantas pilots are so busy keeping the airline going whilst their management are doing all they can to discredit them. Check the share price, Joyce is desperate. Pilots fly the aircraft not MS Wirth! That's the message! Get it out.

[peuce]

As a punter, I think I would be interested in seeing what the Management Pay & Bonus structure is ... and what KPIs trigger those bonuses.

I would be interested in seeing whether Qantas' stated priority of "Safety" is supported by those KPIs

If Management were not willing to make their details available, as they so happily do with their Employees' details, I would be asking ... what do they have to hide?

There you are ... there's something to start with ...

[skybed]

As claimed by the news
An extract from the enterprise bargaining agreement claim the pilots are putting to Qantas states: "The pilot in command shall, in consultation with the CSM [customer service manager], have the ability to allocate one curtained economy class seat at his/her discretion."

The "curtained" seat refers to a rest seat that would otherwise be available to cabin crew on a long-haul flight.

It was previously voted on among the crew as to who would get the seat, but pilots are demanding that they now get to pick and choose above everyone else on board.
:ugh:
ITS IS THE CABIN CREW REST SEAT(CURTAINED OFF). NO CAPTAIN WILL EVER GET THE OPPORTUNITY TO OVERRIDE THE CABIN CREW REST FACILITY AND PUT SOME FRIEND OR FRIEND OF SOMEONE IN THERE!!!!!
YOU WANT TO UPSET CABIN CREW GO AHEAD WITH THAT STUPID CLAIM.
REMEMBER DON'T BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU!!!

[The The]

Did someone mention Dixon?

Meanwhile, Singleton may also have his sights set on Sydney Ferries. The New South Wales government has called for expressions of interest to run a franchised Sydney Ferries, essentially contracting out the operations of the iconic service and The Australian Financial Review reports that the $2 billion Global Aviation Asset Management (GAAM) – the brainchild of Singleton and former Qantas boss Geoff Dixon – is preparing its offer for the state government.

GAAM also lease aircraft to Jetstar. Yet another beneficiary of the Jetstar growth.

[Mr. Hat]

They did the same for the ALAEA yesterday.

Smash them back: Tell of the corrupt gifting of ipads, bottles of wine and lounge memberships.

Publish every single email from the Jetstar pilots in the SMH.

[RATpin]

Yeah,two quotes from years past worth remembering at this time i believe.
"Those that forget the lessons of history are destined to repeat them"and "The only thing new in the world,is the history you don't know yet."
Essentially,these battles can not be won with emotional arguments.
As has been said by others,you must engage media savvy professionals to have
a fighting chance IMHO.
Good luck Blokes.

[bobhoover]

did anyone just notice the sudden jump in percentage change on the telegraph website? media manipulation perhaps.

[Sunfish]

McPilots, McEngineers, McCabin Crew; that is the objective.

My guess is that the good old New South Wales Right wing Labor fix is in.

That means there will be no support whatsoever from the Government or the ACTU, exactly like when Hawkie was P.M.

Gillard wouldn't dare.

[Worrals in the wilds]

The Courier Mail also reported that 'a source close to the airline' had told them all about the pilots' fancy claims. A close source that works for the Qantas PR machine, maybe? :hmm: (Edit: the same article with the same byline has appeared in two of the Murdoch papers. The Daily Telegraph has a similar article by a different author with a claim that 'documents obtained by TDT reveal they are also pursuing other perks". Obtained out of an envelope with a Qantas PR department logo on it, perchance?).

The journos these days are too lazy to report anything except what the PR poppets tell them and the media make a lot of money from Qantas' advertising contracts. There's no point in getting mad about it, it's a fact of modern 'journalism' :yuk:. Either way and for whatever reason, the press are starting to make pilots look precious and that won't help your cause if it's not countered. PR is deceptively difficult and as Sunfish said, you need an expert.

Doing your own PR is like doing your own plumbing. In easy cases you'll probably get away with it but make one mistake and you'll be up to your knees in raw, unprocessed sewerage. Hire someone!
Pilot union's list of luxury travel perks angers battling Qantas | Courier Mail (http://www.couriermail.com.au/travel/news/pilot-unions-list-of-luxury-travel-perks-angers-battling-qantas/story-e6freqwo-1226057766288)
Qantas pilots demand cheap family flights | thetelegraph.com.au (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/travel/news/qantas-pilots-demand-cheap-family-flights/story-e6frezi0-1226057970255)

Good luck.

[Mr. Hat]

The media campaign steps up. Easy to influence journalists with ipads and expensive wine i suspect.

AIPA should fire back and list all the perks management get as part of their package,

[ozbiggles]

The PR spin is difficult to control.
You have to remember most journalism in this country is about selling advertising. Just watch the likes of ACA and TT.
I would bet those stories were given to the media in exchange for more paid advertising.
You have to trump advertising money with sensationalism. Its a ugly, dirty way to do business but that is the standard of the media.

[DutchRoll]

It is difficult to control, as there is no limit to the amount of money Qantas executives will spend on PR. The information flow is mostly one way at the moment (Qantas corporate to media). That needs to be corrected. But we all knew this would happen and AIPA also were well aware of it from some time ago.

The journo problem we can't fix. Many journos are too lazy to fact check and will just reprint a Qantas corporate PR spin almost word for word whether or not it is complete nonsense. We just have to attempt to control the information flow better.

As for the article: riddled with misconceptions. For a start, since when was it "news" that staff can get 10% fares? Most if not all full service airlines have this type of staff travel and usually it's much better than what Qantas offers. His quoted staff fare to LA is out by a factor of nearly 3 (too low) because he neglected to say it is based on FULL (undiscounted and non-promotional) fare prices plus charges. And the concept that this will cost employee jobs and millions of dollars is plucked straight from corporate PR's bowels, because the proposed seats are not revenue seats, nor are full fare paying passengers EVER displaced.

[Mr. Hat]

In this information age you can defend your position Dutch Roll. Every QF pilot should be in the comments section of these articles defending the pilots position exposing the mistruths, exposing the corruption. You have numbers we all have a keyboard.

Emails, texts, letters to Senators, phone calls fight the fight.

[mcgrath50]

Thanks Fed Sec for giving your side of the story :ok:

[Taildragger67]

You have numbers we all have a keyboard.

... and family and friends willing to 'comment' after such scurrilous drivel. Mobilise your mums / dads / partners / spouses / kids etc. but make the message CLEAR and not technical.

[ejectx3]

Is special seating for a pilot's family too much?



Yes 26.97% (89 votes)
No 73.03% (241 votes)

[Transition Layer]

The new Staff Travel claim in the EBA is simply an attempt to restore the balance in the game that is Staff Travel Roulette.

This wouldn't have had to happen if middle management didn't invent the "41Y" onload category which (regardless of year of joining) immediately puts them above any staff member on their Annual Leave trip.

AIPA needs to make this perfectly clear - that a brand new 22yo IT contractor would get onloaded before a Captain with 40 years service who is on annual leave. And that, is just plain wrong.

[Angle of Attack]

ITS IS THE CABIN CREW REST SEAT(CURTAINED OFF). NO CAPTAIN WILL EVER GET THE OPPORTUNITY TO OVERRIDE THE CABIN CREW REST FACILITY AND PUT SOME FRIEND OR FRIEND OF SOMEONE IN THERE!!!!!
YOU WANT TO UPSET CABIN CREW GO AHEAD WITH THAT STUPID CLAIM.
REMEMBER DON'T BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU!!!

Well you are easily replaced as per all the new contracts, go ahead bite me! The Captain rules over the cabin full stop, dont like it go back to flippin burgers girl..

[stewser89]

Two international premium economy seats a year?
Crew Rest seats for family members?

Wouldn't these be demands that Qantas could use at the negotiating table and taking tit for tat, rather than giving them to journos to further disenchant and alienate the pilot groups? 'We can't give you 5% but what about this instead?'


Just out of curiosity what are the current perks and rosters like for a long-haul pilot?

A PM will remain so.

Cheers
Cameron

[Oakape]

Why is this information being leaked to the press?

Two reasons.

Mud sticks & those who throw it first will have the advantage to the end.

And it is in the Australian psyche to to be anti the tall poppy.

So lets throw some mud around regarding supposed over the top claims, bending them, twisting them & spinning them to make the opposition look as bad to the general public as possible & see where it goes. They are already on the back foot with public opinion. It will be harder to stage industrial action with the public off side & the pressure on the politicians will be great to step in & rescue the traveling public & the airlines from being held to ransom. It worked a few years ago, so why not now the management ask themselves.

Well, why not throw some mud back insead of just taking it all the time? You can't take the high moral ground while you are being crucified & the mob mentality are just lapping up the show. Everyone in management is a tall poppy just waiting to be cut down. How about spinning some of their excesses & presenting that to the public? You just might get some of the attention focused back where it belongs. Maybe not for the right reasons initially, but once the spotlight is there, you can then put the boot in regarding the things that really matter.

[Sunfish]

You silly buggers haven't even educated the public about what "sub load" travel really is. They think you can waltz up to the counter and get on board like the general public.

My own experience of sub load on annual leave in England was the dreaded morning telephone call to Qantas to see if there were Two seats free for the last week of my annual leave.

[ANCDU]

We need to remember this battle has only just started. By Qantas spewing out this rubbish so early it is actually giving AIPA an advantage, because these "bites" from the company become old news very quickly, and they are actually very easy to counter in the long term.

If PIA becomes reality from both the engineers and pilots (and i get the feeling the timing will be very close :hmm:) the media spotlight will be all over the two unions. That will be the time to start the publicity war. The unions have so much ammo against qantas management that i think Qantas has shown its hand too early. Look at how the mainstream media is starting to question how the airline is being run.....we wouldn't have seen that 18 months ago.

I think its Qantas that will have more trouble than the employees unions, and they know it.

[skybed]

you are a bit of course.:= No Captain overrules industrial agreements unless he/ she wants an invitation from the CP) . yes he/she is in charge of the aircraft (no one ever questions that) but has to take into consideration industrial agreements written into SOP's. This article resulted into a flury of phone calls and as a result the FAAA published an email to its members re this issue. I fully understand the issue re contractors getting higher priorities( which pi...ses everyone off severly), I have to deal with this issue all the time as long serving staff members throughout the company get sh...ted by contractors. Don't start me off with J* contractor with pc categories:yuk:
As for flippin burgers, not a bad idea. join the mining boom get 200k plus to flip burgers and don't have to put up with self loading freight, princesses etc.:ok:

[framer]

Lets not focus on an us v's them thing between CC and Tech crew.
The company is shafting both groups so lets just forget about who is in charge and who is a princess etc for a few months.

[CaptainSouth]

As a pilot involved in the current fight, while I don't like details of our EBA coming out to the public as part of the war,I don't really think that public opinion will win or lose the war.
HOWEVER.....if that is the way it's run, why don't we publish the details of AJ's package or Buchanan or any of the other fools running this show?
I'm pretty sure they would get confirmed first class seats, millions of dollars in shares etc etc

[Gas Bags]

You will never know and they wont tell you the extent of their T's and C's, let alone the ancillary benefits that fall into their laps.

[Sunfish]

Capt. South, public opinion is the ONLY thing that will win you this war.

Qantas cannot hold out against a strike by pilots or engineers if there is some sympathy for you from the general public.

If on the other hand, Qantas can paint you as a bunch of greedy Prima Donnas holding traveling mums and dads and babies to ransom, then your strike will be broken in exactly the same way as 1989.

Remember the waterfront strike? Patrick Ltd made one mistake - they allowed masked security guards with attack dogs to be photographed and it made it to the front cover of every newspaper in the country. That was all it took to destroy any public sympathy for the employer.


You need to get professional help with your PR.

I don't know if the engineers are doing so (SP's letter to Thomas was masterly) but you need to get the message out about what hoops you have to jump through to end up in an A380 and how that can quickly end through medical problems, failed checks, etc. etc.


To put it another way; all it needs is the Murdoch press to get a photo of a Qantas Captain climbing into his Ferrari or Porsche and pasting that on front pages with a comment about earning $500, 000 per year and your EBA is toast.

Perceptions are reality.

[3 Holer]

Capt. South, public opinion is the ONLY thing that will win you this war.


Cr@p. The only thing that will win you this war is solidarity!

[Captain.Que]

You require both......Solidarity and public sympathy.
With both you will achieve a positive outcome.
To friends not in the industry I am spending a lot time explaining whats happening.They are not getting the facts from the media.Many feel that what Qantas is proposing is un Australain but on the other hand they are not sure why pilots deserve their support.The AIPA needs to get out there and clear this up

[34R]

So far the QF spin has concentrated purely on the pilots list of claims, and let me tell you there aren't that many.

I'd like to see AIPA, in due course, present the companies list of claims for all to see, and let me tell you there are many!
More importantly, have it presented in a fashion that joe public can understand.

Any one of the pilots 'audacious' claims can be easily countered with some of the immoral demands the company is placing on the pilot negotiating table.

I have to agree that perception is everything. 99% of the population take on face value what they hear via various media outlets. Why wouldn't they? We just have to make sure that when we are given an opportunity, be it TV, radio or print media, we dispatch the obvious untruths to the gutter where they belong a little better than we have been doing recently.

[Mr. Hat]

... and family and friends willing to 'comment' after such scurrilous drivel. Mobilise your mums / dads / partners / spouses / kids etc. but make the message CLEAR and not technical.

..anyone that will listen...

[Ultergra]

Ok, this isn't the engineering EBA section, and I get that, but has anyone asked, why did the engineers back down SO quickly and promise not to do anything for a month?!?! What was said to them?

(the month bit is a rumour.. Is it true?)

[The Green Goblin]

Ok, this isn't the engineering EBA section, and I get that, but has anyone asked, why did the engineers back down SO quickly and promise not to do anything for a month?!?! What was said to them?

(the month bit is a rumour.. Is it true?)

1. The senate inquiry results will be released.
2. The long Haul Pilots will be also taking PIA
3. Other facets of the business will also be seeking PIA
4. Jetstar will be in court with the AFAP.
5. There will be a ruling on Jetconnect
6. The shareholders will be calling an emergency meeting asking WTF is going on!

The results?

The A team will be kicked so hard up the arse, they'll need to hitch a ride on the space shuttle to get back down.

P.S I don't think NASA will oblige :}

[stewser89]

Who is ruling on Jetconnect GG?
Don't worry found it.

['holic]

1974,
Lol. Bit hard to do that from the flightdeck at 35000'. BTW, have you been sniffing glue?

[The Green Goblin]

Lol. Bit hard to do that from the flightdeck at 35000'. BTW, have you been sniffing glue?

I think he's had a little too much red cordial personally :ok:

[Tidbinbilla]

Thanks, gents. Unionist won't be dropping his tripe on this thread for a little while:)

[QAN_Shareholder]

Captain South,

As a pilot involved in the current fight, while I don't like details of our EBA coming out to the public as part of the war,I don't really think that public opinion will win or lose the war.
HOWEVER.....if that is the way it's run, why don't we publish the details of AJ's package or Buchanan or any of the other fools running this show?
I'm pretty sure they would get confirmed first class seats, millions of dollars in shares etc etc

AJ's contract was detailed in an ASX release when he became CEO and the senior execs remuneration is summarised in the annual report every year.

And yes they are very well paid as indeed are all executives of major Australian listed companies. IMHO executive pay in Australia, and elsewhere, has got way out of control and Qantas historically were responsible for some of the worst excesses. But Qantas aren't out of line with other companies now and frankly the performance related structure (but not the magnitude) of his contract is far more palatable to shareholders than a seniority system.

[Chadzat]

If by seniority you are referring to pilot seniority, then please do tell how a different system would work? Should we be filling out KPI reports as we are conducting the ILS on the 6th sector of the day?

As pretty much everyone else has said, you need to get some FACTS into the public domain, preferably on the same day as the QF spin gets released.

Explain things like subload, like the average payrises you have had previously, like the fact crew rest cant be used for joe public anyway etc.....

[Oakape]

But Qantas aren't out of line with other companies now

So no matter what the renumeration package is, it is acceptable as long as it is in line with other companies? I assume you mean other comparable companies. Do you believe that to be reasonable for all company employees as well as management?

Perhaps we can compare pilot & engineer T&C's of other comparable airlines.

[Angle of Attack]

Lets outsource the management to the Indians, I am sure as hell they would do a lot better on a $hitload less pay!

[Sunfish]

For the benefit of those who don't know, airline staff travel is mostly "Sub load"

Sub load = Subject to load.

It means you get the empty seat because there aren't enough full fare paying passengers to fill the aircraft. It also means that if a full fare paying passenger suddenly arrives, even at the last minute, then you have lost your seat.

This means that the "Ten percent fare" isn't always the bargain it is made out to be, like when you are stuck in London for a few extra days waiting for a seat home. I spent a fascinating but unscheduled six days in Karachi as the guest of Lufthansa on one of these jaunts. The ATO once looked at these fares with respect to fringe benefits tax and decided they weren't worth the trouble of taxing.

Some airlines will sometimes give staff a confirmed seat in certain circumstances, and occasionally upgrades, for example Ansett used to give you confirmed annual leave travel once a year, with an upgrade to first class if it was available.

The infinite gradations in determining access to staff travel are one of the tools used by airline management to divide, irritate, and rule their workforces.

As an engineer, we always got the short end of the stick. It was always the cabin crew who seemed to get the "long weekend in Hawaii" type perks. Certain managers often headed overseas with half a dozen first class open dated tickets in their pockets.

[TIMA9X]

The infinite gradations in determining access to staff travel are one of the tools used by airline management to divide, irritate, and rule their workforces. Oh yes!

Sub load = Subject to load.Other words, AJ can inflate the figures creatively, anyway he likes to use against any EBA claim negotiations and string it out as long as he can as a sticking point.
Once the doors are shut those empty seats mean nothing.

This costing method dumbfounds the mainstream media, they never question it or don't know how to. :(
Am I right?

[DutchRoll]

If people want something to compare regarding staff travel, try this:

Pilots: Our tickets will never, ever displace a fare-paying passenger, even if that pax buys a ticket at the very last minute.

Execs: I while back just before Joyce took over I asked a ground staff manager in MEL why she looked so angry and flustered. The reason was that she had just been ordered to displace several full fare paying business class pax off a flight because Dixon and his entourage had at the last minute decided they wanted to get that flight. The order came directly from Dixon himself.

That's the difference.

[Keg]

Nice return of serve here (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/452108-qantas-pressures-pilots-save-fuel.html) though. Subtle and will help us in the long run. I'm still a tad uneasy about leaving misconceptions un-refuted in the short term but I'm starting to get an idea of the playbook.

[peuce]

I don't particularly care what the Executives' pay rate is ... as it's probably ludicrous anyway.

But, as I said in an earlier post, I am interested in what KPIs trigger their salary/bonuses.

I suspect the KPIs are all bottom-line related ... as opposed to safety related.
If that is the position, then there is a clear case that the Qantas Management are driven by costs ... not safety.

Which is clearly at odds with their publicly spruiked Corporate philosophy and objectives.

[DutchRoll]

Yep. It was a nice return of serve.

And there's plenty more where that came from!

[Mr. Hat]

Thats right Keg. Fight fire with fire.

Information age means each and everyone of us can hit back. There are more of us than there are of them. Its only takes one anonymous phonecall/email to the SMH and their Geoffrey Thomas Surprise suNrise sprUikeR disappears very quickly.

It has to be a campaign from all pilots. Its not just a Qf problem its an industry problem.

For those of you that have a natural inclination to writing good letters:

Please contact us:

Level 2/31 Ebenezer Place, Adelaide

[email protected]

TEL: 08 8232 1144

FAX: 08 8232 3744

['holic]

IMHO executive pay in Australia, and elsewhere, has got way out of control and Qantas historically were responsible for some of the worst excesses. But Qantas aren't out of line with other companies nowThese are some figures for CEO remuneration for 2010. They are in $A, and include cash and non-cash payments, bonuses etc :

Qantas $2.9m (down from $3.6 the previous year)
British Airways $1.5m
Singapore Airlines $1.9m
Cathay Pacific $1.4m

Singair and Cathay are also making decent profits. Maybe QAN_shareholder can explain how AJ is worth a 50 - 100% premium over other better performing CEOs?

[TIMA9X]

Maybe QAN_shareholder can explain how AJ is worth a 50 - 100% premium over other better performing CEOs? Probably why AJ calls Australia home. :E

[QAN_Shareholder]

'holic,

These are some figures for CEO remuneration for 2010. They are in $A, and include cash and non-cash payments, bonuses etc :

Qantas $2.9m (down from $3.6 the previous year)
British Airways $1.5m
Singapore Airlines $1.9m
Cathay Pacific $1.4m

Singair and Cathay are also making decent profits. Maybe QAN_shareholder can explain how AJ is worth a 50 - 100% premium over other better performing CEOs?

Just to reiterate I think Australian CEO salaries are way too high but if you want some figures...

The median remuneration for CEOs of the 20th to 50th largest companies in the ASX was $3.6m in 2010. Yes it is way too high but Qantas is not out of line.

International comparisons are always going to flatter Australian salaries currently due to the exchange rate. I am guessing here but I suspect if you compare average Qantas cabin crew and engineers salaries to British Airways equivalents you might find they are also 50%+ higher (happy to be corrected if I'm wrong). And if you did the same thing with Singapore and Hong Kong I imagine it would be 100%+ higher. If you have figures for pilots translated at current exchange rates I would be interested to see them.

And just in case the rumour resurfaces that Qantas executives are the best paid in the world, Delta's CEO earned over US$8million last year.

[peuce]

Not that I have any stake in what any Australian commercial pilot is paid, but in all fairness:


What are the minimum hours required, leave entitlements, allowances etc of those international pilots? You don't know? How can you compare?
What else is included in those overseas EBAs/Contracts/Employment Agreements? You don't know? How can you compare?
I don't know what line you're in, but if a person in Singapore, doing the same job as you, gets paid less than you, will you automatically take a pay cut? No? You'd like to know more information first?


Apples with Apples :=

[assasin8]

As they say, you get what you pay for... Certainly true in the case of our pilots and engineers... Worth every cent and some! :D

Time and again, they have proven their worth, especially of late, with the amount of incidents we've had.

Not so sure about some of our management "decisions", though... Poor route structure, wrong aircraft, no vision (blinded by their short term KPIs and bonuses!)... and what's our tally, so far, with respect to fines?

Mmmmm? All of a sudden "the buck stops with me" no longer applies, so who is to blame... I know, lets blame it on the workers! :hmm:

['holic]

I attended a Roadshow given by JB a while back (2005?) where he showed us a chart of selected legacy airline's gross salary for Captains. I remember the likes of Lufthansa and BA were at the top, SIA down the bottom and Qantas was almost exactly in the middle. Since that time our pay hasn't kept up with CPI, so unless those other airlines have taken significant pay cuts, I'd imagine we're still near the middle of the pack.

And just in case the rumour resurfaces that Qantas executives are the best paid in the world, Delta's CEO earned over US$8million last year.Delta has a fleet of 700+ aircraft and 12000 pilots.

International comparisons are always going to flatter Australian salaries currently due to the exchange rate.Ok, even if you take 20% off AJs earnings to account for the exchange rate he's still getting paid significantly more than other comparable airline CEOs.

But Qantas aren't out of line with other companies now and frankly the performance related structure (but not the magnitude) of his contract is far more palatable to shareholders than a seniority system. I take it that you think the seniority system promotes mediocrity. I find it amusing that in the very same sentence you find it palatable that a mediocre CEO is not penalised for poor performance.

[breakfastburrito]

QAN_SHAREHOLDER. Technical crew operating costs are in the order of ~3% direct operating costs, obviously +/- a bit here or there between operators. Traditionally QF crew were in the middle of the range globally.

The question you should really be asking management is why they are burning up to 50 tonnes per sector more than the competitors because of poor fleet choices for similar configurations. I think you will find that tech crew costs are a proverbial piss in the bucket compared to what is being wasted out the backend.

You should then ask management about the A380 fuel performance. The following is a summary from the then fuel pilot.

He had been asked directly by senior management why the A380 was not using 30% less fuel per seat compared to the -400. He went on to explain that the A380 was indeed performing close to spec WRT fuel burn. But management kept saying that it wasn't the 30% reduction that Airbus had sold it to be. He then asked about the QF seating config vs the Airbus configuration for the fuel burn figures (QF's 450 vs 650 airbus).

Senior management could not get their heads around the fact that there was essentially a FIXED fuel burn for an empty aircraft, and then a small additional fuel burn per full seat. Management assumed fuel burn was essentially a linear function. In other words if QF had a 650 seat config the fuel burn would indeed be 30% less than the -400, but not in a 450 seat config. This remember is many months after the introduction of the aircraft.

In other words, senior management appear to have ordered an aircraft without the most fundamental understanding of seat configuration vs fuel use. I can only surmise that there was zero in the way of engineering/flight-ops/flight planning input into purchase decision. In essence, management were appear to have had the wool pulled over their eyes by Airbus.

His advise was to give the aircraft to jetstar in a high density configuration if they wanted a 30% fuel reduction per seat mile.

Go ask them about it.

[QAN_Shareholder]

'holic,

I attended a Roadshow given by JB a while back (2005?) where he showed us a chart of selected legacy airline's gross salary for Captains. I remember the likes of Lufthansa and BA were at the top, SIA down the bottom and Qantas was almost exactly in the middle. Since that time our pay hasn't kept up with CPI, so unless those other airlines have taken significant pay cuts, I'd imagine we're still near the middle of the pack.


In 2005 the $A bought about 42 pence today it is 65 pence. So all else being equal a Qantas pilot would be getting 55% more in GBP, this undoubtedly has closed a lot of the gap to BA pilots.

I take it that you think the seniority system promotes mediocrity. I find it amusing that in the very same sentence you find it palatable that a mediocre CEO is not penalised for poor performance.

AJ is penalised for poor performance - check what it says in the annual report (although if you earn $3m maybe $1m less due to performance isn't that great a penalty). As for seniority, I'm not convinced it is a great system for either employer or employee, danger is that you end up with disenchanted employees that want to leave but can't afford to.

[mrdeux]

Bit like the A330-300 being the "long range one".....

[DEFCON4]

Breakfast burrito has beautifully highlighted the shortcomings of Qantas Management.They have absolutely no technical expertise and understanding.Yet they are paid a fortune to make complex technical decisions unassisted.They are also not accountable.They have adopted the "divine right to manage mantra" which precludes input from expert employees.I doubt that there is an MBA or tertiary achievement/qualification any where in senior management.It has been suggested that Qantas has the most poorly educated executive of any Australian corporation.Dixon was a dimwit and surrounded himself with dimmer wits.We are paying the penalty.
Surely the large institutional investors are not pleased.The share price has tanked and no dividend has been forthcoming for three years.Time for an extraordinary shareholder meeting which would hopefully result in a no confidence motion not only in Joyce but also the board and Clifford(who also happens to be an advisor for KKR~ a private equity fund)
The girl who is the Executive Manager of Cabin Services is an ex Virgin Hostie with no qualifications apart from ambition and anger

[QAN_Shareholder]

breakfastburrito,

Senior management could not get their heads around the fact that there was essentially a FIXED fuel burn for an empty aircraft, and then a small additional fuel burn per full seat. Management assumed fuel burn was essentially a linear function. In other words if QF had a 650 seat config the fuel burn would indeed be 30% less than the -400, but not in a 450 seat config. This remember is many months after the introduction of the aircraft.

Apologies for my skepticism but it sounds like an urban myth to me, but if you're convinced it's true I'd like to know who the 'senior management' were, any chance you can PM me?

[jibba_jabba]

All I can add to this issue is that Qantas is following tactics being laid out for them by Boston Consulting Group (BCG). BCG made all the arrangements to get Jetstar up and running and they are very good at restructuring and lowering T&C's as we all know.

So beware those involved that this just may be a tactic given to them to push people over the edge and trigger reactions.
If PIA is done in regards to crew etc I have it on good authority that Qantas will not give in on this 'strike' of sorts. So I can only assume that they have tricks up their sleeves (contracted pilots from o/s??).

Your only bet is to have massive support on whatever action you take.

good luck.

[breakfastburrito]

Apologies for my skepticism but it sounds like an urban myth to me,
QAN_shareholder, I wish it were. Perhaps we could get some comparisons of burn /pax load / overall wind from A380/744/777 pilots across the Pacific in an attempt answer the question.

['holic]

In 2005 the $A bought about 42 pence today it is 65 pence. So all else being equal a Qantas pilot would be getting 55% more in GBP, this undoubtedly has closed a lot of the gap to BA pilots.Ok, before we get bogged down in historical currency exchange rates I don't believe it's really relevant. Qantas employees don't compete globally. peuce said it best :
I don't know what line you're in, but if a person in Singapore, doing the same job as you, gets paid less than you, will you automatically take a pay cut?You'll never hear Qantas employees making an EBA claim for a payrise because Cathay employees earn more.

Executives, however, do compete globally. A few years ago when the $A dollar was 60c, CEOs were justifying their exorbitant salaries by saying they had to attract the best candidates from a global pool. The only trouble is when the exchange rate went up, the salaries didn't come down. So I think in their case, it's absolutely relevant to compare salaries with comparable foreign businesses.

As for seniority, I'm not convinced it is a great system for either employer or employee, danger is that you end up with disenchanted employees that want to leave but can't afford to. Or if managed correctly, loyal employees who are willing to give 110% to see the company succeed because they have a long term vested interest in making this happen. Let me just point out that nobody joins Qantas pissed off and disengaged. It takes a special kind of management and at least a decade or two to wear them down to this state.

[rodchucker]

Do you really think that the Rat is game enough to use strike breakers? Sure they can plan but the ramifications for the Company would be huge.

Now lets all hope the rumoured friday meeting of investment funds happened and is working.

I live in hope.

[nitpicker330]

May I say good luck to the QF boys and girls, don't let AJ get away with this BS.

Also, has anyone seen the Jetcon 738 ( ZK-ZQF ) flying around with the titles "THE JOURNEY HAS STARTED" on the side?

Seems rather apt don't you think!!

Although one could argue the Journey started after 1989 and has been downhill ever since.

Time to reverse the trend.:ok:

[psycho joe]

Do you really think that the Rat is game enough to use strike breakers?

Absolutely. A major strike would make AJ appear impotent, petty and dominated.

My guess is that one man’s difficult childhood has manifested itself into insecurity, self loathing and a deep resentment toward a group, predominantly made up of men, whom he perceives as Alpha males. He desperately wants to assert his dominance, by the most public display of prowess. In his mind he's going to be perceived by the public and his workforce as a tough and fearless leader, a power to be reckoned with, as the news crew capture him working tirelessly behind check in desks. He'll be thinking that he's finally become the Alpha male that he always wanted to be.

Pity the delusional fool; He hates himself more than he hates you.

[Sunfish]

Clifford thinks he can treat you like miners - bulldozer drivers, etc. Just a bit of biffo and you will give in, then we all go and drink at the pub and be good mates until the next time.

[kellykelpie]

You're such a stirrer Sunfish. Are you trying to wind everyone up? I don't think miners are doing so badly, do you? Perhaps you're considerable knowledge on how managers think could be put to better use...

[fishers.ghost]

You will find that Sunfish was referring to Clifford's days at Rio Tinto where he "broke' the unions.
Clifford is little more than an egomaniacal corporate thug.Another narcissist to stir the pot at Qantas

[teresa green]

As a 89er I cannot believe some of these posts. Firstly ALAEA FED SEC, Limos? Us? Mate we were lucky to get a taxi and then only if the crew bus broke down, limos are for rock stars mate, not line pilots. (Not in TAA anyway). Secondly who was the goose that put in that staff travel crap? In my long career I have seen Sky Gods DEMAND a seat on a aircraft that is chockers, to the discomfort to the ground staff and the FSD/CSM or what ever you call them these days. Pull your head in, if the freckin thing is full, tough, get the next one, like the rest of us. Thirdly, I would like to take you down the path to 89 and let you know what it is like. The company, the govt, who will support them, yes, even a left wing bunch of idiots that we have running the country now, they will bat for management not you. Thirdly, as much as I cannot imagine them recruiting pilots from OS who are current on type, we thought the same. There are plenty of pilots who would love to come to OZ from South Africa, USA and the sandpit. Also from Europe. Don't doubt it. Yes, less money (perhaps) but the life style for them and their families appeal. So softly, softly, catchee monkey boys, just remember that, from one that had his life turned upside down and how. You need a professional PR person, for a start, You need to get the journos on side, (get rid of the idiot with staff travel fetishes) and proceed slowly and with caution, we, the 89ers, would HATE to see it happen again, we dont want any of you placed in our situation EVER again.:ugh:

[Ultergra]

I welcome strike breakers.

I seem to recall some clown climbing up the harbour bridge and that caused heavy traffic delays. Then I recall someone dumping a whole heap of soil on the same bridge... again traffic couldn't get past...


How many roads lead into Sydney airport again?

[Slasher]

we, the 89ers, would HATE to see it happen again, we
dont want any of you placed in our situation EVER again

Speak for yerself Theresa. History will be repeated and theres
no sense in beating your head against a brick wall. Its gonna
happen AGAIN, except this time WE have the safety of a nice
grandstand seat overseas. The methods by QF management
will be different, but the psychological warfare will be exactly
the same as it was with the fat turd and his bow-tie lackey.

Be a shame when the White Rat goes down the gurgler but that's modern Oz for ya.


You need to get the journos on side,

You mean a silly thick-headed bloody AUSTRALIAN journo?
Won't happen! What's needed is to get the media moguls
on side (as I mentioned in a thread somewhere else News
Corp I don't think has any financial interest stakes in QF,
so it might be possible).

BTW I'd steer clear of the ABC - they were a miserable
bunch of ALP-sycophant ratbags then and they still are.

[Hugh Gorgen]

I wonder how many "strike breakers" around the world have an A380 rating. Not many I suspect.
Qantas will not want "its jewel in the crown" not flying and I suspect it will be hard to find qualified crews that CASA will approve.

That said, I think AIPA and QF pilots are a long way off striking.

[Keg]

I'd be very surprised if 'strike' was even included on a PIA ballot. Stop work though? Won't at all be surprised to see that but even then would suspect there are a number of things that crew will do prior to us getting to the point of actually having a stop work.

[teresa green]

Hope your right Hugh Gorgon, but then we never considered they would do what they did. As far as the A380 is concerned, do you think CASA would not back french pilots? Hardly likely. Never say never mate.

[SkyScanner]

breakfastburrito ask and you shall receive:ok:(it's not the pacific but similar distance)

CX HKG LHR. Same day. 744 vs 773. Same route (B330) and time ( I asked the planners for a comparison). Almost identical pax loads. In other words apples v apples

773 trip fuel 100.6 Ton
744 trip fuel 133.8 Ton

If you did a 380 run it would be around 150-160 ton.

QAN_SHAREHOLDER if you run the numbers on pilot costs, you will find Qantas pilots sit right in the middle (I have done a CX, SQ, BA, VA, QF, EY, EK, QR, SAA comparison based on both current and a floating average). Whilst the exchange rates have moved, it does not affect the rankings as much as you are suggesting and CX are still the highest paid pilots in the region. In fact their contract has a built in fixed exchange rate of just over 6.1 HKD/AUD.

As for CEO costs, AJ is miles in front of pretty much every other major competitor we face.

[breakfastburrito]

Thanks Skyscanner, appreciate the effort.

There you have it, at $100 US per barrel
158.987 litres per barrel = $0.629 per litre, divided by av SG 0.79 = $0.796 per Kg
=$796 per tonne

Total fuel burn for the sector:
777 $80,078,
744 -$106,505
=$26,427 per sector additional fuel burn to carry ~same pax load on the 744.

Tech crew costs are a piss in the ocean compared to the additional fuel burn of the 744. This is why QF is uncompetitive, the equipment, not the tech crew.

More data burn/pax load would be appreciated.

[nike]

and CX are still the highest paid pilots in the region. In fact their contract has a built in fixed exchange rate of just over 6.1 HKD/AUD


Say what????

[Centaurus]

MODS. Are you watching? Stop this lad in his tracks right now please..:mad:

[b737800capt06]

I suspect the flying public have varying views on airline pilot salaries, mostly it depends upon were you interview them at sealevel on the couch or in seat 23a at FL350.:ok:

So let me be very clear.

As a society we pay specialist doctors & surgeons at the peak of their profession $500k+ a year, and no one would deny those professionals that level of income as we the public put our lives in the hands of those highly skilled professionals.:ok:

An ATPL qualified pilot flying 744 or A380 on international routes has the lives of hundreds in his/her hands with every decision they make, often under great pressure.

This does not mean that a first officer flying YSSY to YMML sector gets $500k a year, nothing like it.

If Qantas wants to save money, then it should look at the perks and income of the senior non-pilot executives.

"Passengers that fly with an airline in the Qantas Group of airlines can be assured that the pilots and flight crews have the skills, training and commitment to make their journey safely and smoothly.

These pilots are selected by the respective airline in the Qantas Group for their experience, talent and ability to handle any situation. They are rewarded for their performance, skills and dedication:* through active career progression backed by excellent training, facilities and ongoing support from their respective airline:mad:."

[Much Ado]

Any more mention of Social Climbing Ar$ehole BarstewardS will upset me greatly and earn said moron a thread ban.

Am I making myself fairly clear?

Much Ado

[3 Holer]

An ATPL qualified pilot flying 744 or A380 on international routes has the lives of hundreds in his/her hands with every decision they make, often under great pressure.


If you are making life threatening decisions under great pressure everytime you fly international routes, may I respectfully suggest you deploy yourself to the domestic aviation scene.
Secondly, you will not secure public support or justify pilot wage increases by comparing them with Doctors and Surgeons or executive management perks etc,.
Keep the apples and oranges in their respective baskets.:ok:

[Veruka Salt]

CX are still the highest paid pilots in the region. In fact their contract has a built in fixed exchange rate of just over 6.1 HKD/AUD.


I wish !! :{

[nitpicker330]

Thanks Keg, I've decided to remove my post. Not because we now earn about the same :ok: but because I'll get flack from others at CX for releasing my pay level!!

I still haven't heard about this fixed exchange rate thing though?

[Keg]

:ok: If your's is gone nitpicker, so is mine! :}

Have a good arvo.

[nitpicker330]

Might be better that way:ok:

Cheers bud..

[GADRIVR]

Have to share a space occasionally during the week with the AIPA types.
Suffice to say......if this is the lot leading you blokes into negotiations.....get the TWU in now.
You drivers don't need another 89 situation and yet thats the way it seems to be going.
For once I agree with Sunfish.:ugh:

[SMOC]

CX HKG LHR. Same day. 744 vs 773. Same route (B330) and time ( I asked the planners for a comparison). Almost identical pax loads. In other words apples v apples


A CX 744 carries 80 more pax than a CX 773ER.

So if you want to carry the same number of pax you'll have to put a 5th daily service on. The 777 is obviously the better machine but when they need bums on seats CX has no choice but the 744.

So it's more like 'apple -80 vs apple'.

What are the figures for the A340 v the 773ER?

[breakfastburrito]

SMOC - The object of the exercise was to ascertain the A380 vs 744 vs 777 fuel CASK's. My contention was the the QF A380, in its current pax configuration is no more efficient than the 744, and probably significantly worse than the 777 on a fuel burn per seat basis. We need actual data to prove or disprove that theory.

[HF3000]

Burrito, Sky's comparison is not apples because the 744 is designed to carry more than the 773. The comparison is like comparing a minibus to a sedan both carrying 4 Pax. Sure the minibus will burn more fuel, but things will even out per pax if you fill the available seats.

Now possibly the full 744 will still burn more fuel per ASK than the full 773, because it's an older design. But that's not everything, does the 744 have more premium seats? Do they have premium passengers in them? It's about profit not fuel per ASK. What about freight? What about landing slots? You'd need to run more hulls using 773s. More parking bays, more staff, more airways charges. What about purchase/lease/ownership costs?

The same argument applies to the A380. QF A380s have low seat count because they are a 4-class configuration with a large number of premium seats. ASKs are not applicable here either. Now, if the premium passengers ain't buying tickets then we have a problem. And that has been a big problem with the QF A380s during the GFC. But I think a fully booked (with premium pax) A380 would generate profits a 777 could only dream of.

Not saying QF shouldn't have 777s, they unquestionably should. The fact they don't is a serious management screwup.

[breakfastburrito]

HF3000 & SMOC, all the points you make are vaild, I was perhaps a little rushed in making the apple-for-apples comparison based solely on SkyScanners data, here's what I originally posted in post #79 (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/451895-qantas-pilots-you-losing-battle-4.html#post6462233):He had been asked directly by senior management why the A380 was not using 30% less fuel per seat compared to the -400. He went on to explain that the A380 was indeed performing close to spec WRT fuel burn. But management kept saying that it wasn't the 30% reduction that Airbus had sold it to be. He then asked about the QF seating config vs the Airbus configuration for the fuel burn figures (QF's 450 vs 650 airbus).

My point still remains, that management thought they were buying something with a much lower fuel burn per seat & the original purchasing decision was deeply flawed. If my contention is correct, it is an example of the Sunfish theory of a deep lack of understanding of the business & it risks.

If you have any data, please post or PM me.

[Groaner]

Should have asked Airbus for performance guarantees, then. Most savvy aircraft purchasers do (especially for new aircraft). And of course with financial penalties if the guarantee is breached.

[Keg]

I agree that there will be a lot of false things said. I will not sink to Qantas level and respond in kind. Those pilots who engage in this process in an appropriate fashion will have my unwavering support.

I will not support a pilot- or my association- who turns to unethical behaviour or plays the man instead of the ball such as you've done on this thread. I will not compromise my values or my faith by supporting anyone who takes that road. := :ugh:

[tail wheel]

Wot Keg said! :mad:

Any more posts like the deleted post and the user will be banned and thread locked.

The thread title is: Qantas Pilots, You Are Losing The Battle.

Stray from that topic at your peril! :=

[mohikan]

I wondered when Keg would start mentioning God.......

[Keg]

Actually you mentioned God mohikan. I mentioned values and faith. Nice to know my comments pique your interest though. Given how it went last time you took a swipe at me do you really want to go there again? :rolleyes: :cool:

[The The]

There is only ONE message AIPA need to take to the public, over and over again!

"Alan Joyce is destroying an Australian Icon"

There are enough "facts" to support the argument, Jetconnect, offshore maintenance, "Qantas Malaysia" or whatever, there are a myriad or supporting statements. Every statement MUST headline that Joyce (a foreigner) is destroying an Australian Icon. It's the way of political spin.

Focus on this one individual, the CEO, and it will become a house of cards. No body knows Clifford or anyone else, focus, focus, focus!!!!!! Trash Joyce in the public arena time and time again.

[Angle of Attack]

God is actually Dog spelt backwards...at least dogs show themselves! lol!

Anyway I disagree I believe the public perception of management is extremely poor in QF, it is they that need to win the battle, even though they keep sprucing the 450k figure that some QF pilots are on, as I am sure all their pilots are making... NOT!

[BaronB]

Trash Joyce in the public arena time and time again.


Such a weak strategy. Ever heard of playing the ball, not the man?

[manfred]

Back to the thread topic re public and media perception, here's an article, from a business journalist as well, casting a somewhat skeptical eye over some of the current talk:

Qantas is pursuing a risky strategy (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-is-pursuing-a-risky-strategy-20110525-1f4gh.html)

It is always hard to navigate the arguments being promoted by either side of any industrial dispute. In this instance, Qantas is pushing the case that the pilots are seeking wage rises that, while appearing reasonable - 2.5 per cent over three years - are the equivalent of a 26 per cent increase.

It is difficult to reconcile such a vast disparity, but Qantas puts it down to perks such as free travel. Maybe its boss, Alan Joyce, has a malfunctioning calculator.

In reality the Qantas mainline staff are not asking for much of an increase in wages - if any. They just want security around their current wages and conditions and for the new recruits operating under the Qantas brand. This requires the maintenance of a full-service Qantas operation.

[The The]

Such a weak strategy. Ever heard of playing the ball, not the man?

Depends if you want to win? It was actually a strategy discussed recently with a long time political strategist over a few beers.

It is a strategy used in politics all the time. You associate your agenda with a name and a face, the villain. Like pink batts = Peter Garrett, NSW labour = Eddie Obeid or Joe Trapodi. The individual becomes the target of the campaign for the wider agenda. It is much more effective than just targeting say the "government".

The media also love it, it gives them someone to chase and the strategy often succeeds as the intense pressure on the individual "cracks" them into blunders or backdowns. The organisation (board) also don't mind it as it enacts a fall guy if the worst case happens for the organisation.

Read the article posted by manfred. You can see signs of the media side of it with the "Joyce malfunctioning calculator" and also comment that the board are getting nervous.

[maui]

Baron B

This is no time to be playing by a set of rules that the opposition will not respect.

Kick the little prick hard and often.

Ever heard about never turning up to a gun fight armed just with a knife.

An assumption of common sense and decency will not win a street fight.

Been there done that. Retained integrity and lost the war. Good luck guys.

Maui

[What The]

Lee Clifford AO and Peter Cosgrove AC MC both need to be attacked for their unAustralian actions as Board members overseeing the destruction of an icon.

The actions of the Board and, in particular, the Chairperson reflect the absolute lack of airline experience that exists in many of the "network" appointees.

These two "gentlemen" should be relieved of their Order of Australia for what they are now doing to the people of Australia.

Shame, Shame , Shame.:yuk:

[fishers.ghost]

In 2009 Clifford was appointed as an "advisor" to KKR.
Gues where his loyalties lie?

[manfred]

Well it looks like News Ltd journalists have made their minds up about who they're backing in this dispute:

Qantas pilots want free flights | Perth Now (http://www.perthnow.com.au/qantas-pilots-want-free-flights/story-fn6mhb6v-1226063732645)


Figures obtained by the Herald Sun reveal the pilots' claim for a pay rise, added job security and perks such as free flights, would total $317 million -- an average of about $190,000 for each of the airline's 1700 flyboys.

An average 747 pilot earns $350,000 a year and the top pilots earn up to $500,000.

Having said that, this one's a few years old, but other Newspapers may have different opinions regarding pilot pay:


The Sydney Morning Herald Blogs: Watercooler / January 2007 Archives (http://blogs.smh.com.au/watercooler/archives/2007/01/)

[ConfigFull]

The Bachelor of Arts student that wrote that article goes by the name of Joe Hildebrand - here's an author bio:

Joe Hildebrand was born in Melbourne and extradited to Sydney in 2000. Despite this he considers Adelaide his spiritual home, having spent a pleasant weekend there in the mid-1990s.

He currently “works” at The Daily Telegraph, where he wrote a column for several years until it was removed on bad taste grounds. He is single for the same reason.

He has an abiding interest in cinema, notably the American action-adventure genre which is often overlooked by mainstream audiences. His favourite film is Independence Day, which until recently he believed to be a documentary.

He has a blog at Daily Telegraph Joe Hildebrand Blog (http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/joehildebrand/) It has been described as having a strong cult following, which is to say very few people read it.

He also writes for The Punch in order to comply with the terms of his court order.
Joe Hildebrand | Authors bios | The Punch (http://www.thepunch.com.au/author-bios/joe-hildebrand/)

You'll also note that he DOESN'T post his email on his pieces, probably so the truth will never reach him. Luckily you can contact him and his employers at the following:

1. Twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/Joe_Hildebrand)
2. [email protected]

Joe, you seem like one of those people that regularly Google their own names so I'm going to help you out: JOE HILDEBRAND JOE HILDEBRAND JOE HILDEBRAND JOE HILDEBRAND JOE HILDEBRAND.

You are a ******.

Leave the heavy-hitting business/economic reporting to actual professionals. Continue with the Kevin Rudd hacked emails, really funny stuff genius...

[Sunfish]

I say again; WHERE IS YOUR OWN SPIN DOCTOR????

Do you not understand that unless you can respond with headlines that counter this you are doomed because you won't have public opinion on your side?

Don't you understand that it will be TOO LATE to counter this at the time of a strike?

DO you not understand that truth or otherwise will not help you here? Most of the public will not read beyond the headline.

Do you not understand that Qantas is painting a very unflattering picture of its pilot workforce and you are doing nothing to counter it?

Where is the story "A day in the life of a Qantas pilot?" and similar stuff you should be putting out?

Pilots stand to pocket $200,000 each


QANTAS pilots stand to pocket almost $200,000 each on average if the airline caves into their demands, with the lion's share going on two free tickets a year to anywhere in the world.

Figures obtained by the Herald Sun reveal the pilots' claim for a pay rise, added job security and perks such as free flights, would total $317 million - an average of about $190,000 for each of the airline's 1700 flyboys.

Almost half of this - an estimated $145 million - would go towards pilots seeking two free premium economy seats to any overseas destination as a pay-off for Qantas being able to determine when they take their annual leave.

Other costs include a 2.5 per cent annual increase in wages over three years and a re-classification of what each level of pilots is paid, such as raising Boeing 767 pilots to the higher A330 rate (a more than 10 per cent increase) and the Boeing 747 to the A380 pay rate (a 5 per cent increase).

An average 747 pilot earns $350,000 a year and the top pilots earn up to $500,000.

Pilots are preparing to go on strike for the first time in more than two decades, a move that threatens to cripple the national carrier.

The pilots said yesterday that they were striking over job security.


Pilots stand to pocket $200,000 each | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/pilots-stand-to-pocket-200000-each/story-e6frf7jo-1226063731881)

[Sonny Hammond]

What on earth is going on AIPA???
This article is a litany of lies and half truths and aimed soley at ruining the pilots perception with the public.
( on a side note- just how crap is Australian press- I mean really...I've lived in countries with state controlled media that reported more evenly than these papers...I am not joking either.)

Where are the newspaper ads, websites, even a flying banner with a few facts???

Time for the A+ game is now.

Pilots- you MUST demand more ACTION of the PROactive type...

[teresa green]

:ugh:Will you PLEASE get rid of the idiot with the staff travel fetish. That has to be the most provoking comment/ request, I have ever heard in a dispute. The general public's attitude to staff travel is well known, even to the point where the company requests that you should never identify yourselves to paying pax as staff, a very sensible request. As a 89er I watch all of this with trepidation, and urge you all to hasten slowly.

[Charliethewonderdog]

you wont win letting the print media walk all over you.....

Get with he times.... use the social networks.

[bobhoover]

"flyboys" are we Joe. Rather sexist wouldn't you say?

[nitpicker330]

Yes I have to agree with Sunfish 100%

For goodness sake wake up you lot.

I just bought the Herald Sun in Mel and the bottom of page 5 has the article:-


PILOT'S DEMANDING FREE FLIGHTS


It's also on the main page of ninemsn as well:

QANTAS PILOT'S DEMAND PERKS AND PAYRISES

Qantas have turned up the spin and called in favours from their mates in the Media. You lot had better say something.

[simsalabim]

Doesn't matter what they say .........they wont be heard.

[Rice power]

In political circles ONE letter to the editor is considered to represent the opinion of TWO THOUSAND voters.
Use the letters to the editor of all the broadsheets..... and hit them back with their dodgy maths
Mine this morning:
"A bit of maths 145 million dollars for 2 economy airfares for 1700 pilots prices an economy airfare at $42,647.
This is a blatant lie.
As for Ansett, asset stripping was what brought it's demise. I should know, I was there."

[manfred]

Rice power maybe your right, the spin isn't getting through:

Qantas strike-threat pilots demand $200,000 each | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/pilots-stand-to-pocket-200000-each/comments-e6frfq80-1226063782325)

of the 83 comments on the article, I'd say there were more that backed the pilots (they deserve it/it's mangement spin) over management (pilots are greedy/overpaid). A suprising number easily identified that the travel claims were incorrect. And this comes after a very biased and provocative news.com.au article.

[Nudlaug]

Qantas pilots bid for $200,000 in perks | thetelegraph.com.au (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/qantas-pilots-bid-for-200000-in-perks/story-e6freuzr-1226063716237)

QANTAS pilots each stand to pocket almost $200,000 on average extra if the airline caves in to their demands

An average 747 pilot earns $350,000 a year and the top pilots are on up to $500,000

Edit: Oh excuse me, a few beat me to it :-P Sorry

[Mr. Hat]

manfred you are not wrong I've just added my two cents worth.

I don't work for Qantas but gee this sort of thing gets my blood boiling. Now I finally see what the collegues told me about the last strike. Companies influencing the media to turn public sentiment.

Qantas Pilots, all Pilots you must listen. On every front you must fight this grubby Joyce war. Everyone of you should be on your keyboard getting the facts out there. It may seem like nothing but it will have an impact. For every pprune post you should be matching the news.com etc comments.

Support your colleagues.

[rodchucker]

There is a HUGE amount of support for the pilots but you guys are just failing to get your message out there as many have made clear on this site.

Why is it that you don't want to do this?If your leadership don't get it, then you need to make sure they do understand how important this is.If you don't, the Rat continues to spin and lie.

A good example is the wage issue, not one person has addressed the blatant lies spun. You want to leave the public in no doubt that it is lies. How hard is that?

Get the best media advisor you can get and spread the word or you will lose the battle while the Rat keeps getting free kicks.

[Beer Baron]

Joyce loves to keep pushing the line about Qantas International failing while on numerous occasions stating that Qantas Domestic is the most profitable domestic airline in the country. So, why not spend a little time pointing out that a large portion of that domestic flying is done by pilots covered by the long haul EBA.

Now these are very rough numbers but I estimate 90% of 767 flying is domestic and 15-20% of A330 flying is domestic. Obviously these are larger aircraft than the 737 so despite their smaller fleet size I estimate long haul pilots are flying 40-45% of domestic ASK's. And given QF domestic is so profitable, why is Joyce being so tight-fisted? It seems you can make a profit even with dirty money hungry long haul pilots.
Perhaps this should be presented to the media by AIPA. (with more accurate calculations obviously)

[Ultralights]

after reading the comments section in relation to the stories today across 3 papers, well, your screwed.... 90% of the opinion is aganst you.. gready, arrogent, paid too much, killing the airline... you get the idea...

[Mr. Hat]

This is the information age we can defend our position.

Every QF pilot should be going from paper to paper putting the facts into the comments.

[brown_hornet]

after reading the comments section in relation to the stories today across 3 papers, well, your screwed.... 90% of the opinion is aganst you.. gready, arrogent, paid too much, killing the airline... you get the idea...

And why wouldn't it be that way when you read articles such as this. Qantas pilots demand perks and pay rises (http://finance.ninemsn.com.au/newsbusiness/aap/8254213/qantas-pilots-demand-perks-and-pay-rises)
Just by reading the first two paragraphs the game is over. AIPA need to pull their finger out and tell the public this is NOT about pay and free perks:rolleyes:

[Keg]

Some of us are! :ok:

Although I must say that occasionally it appears that if you come to a discussion too late your comments just aren't added. :(

[Mr. Hat]

Thats right Keg you have to get in early.

Dominate the conversation. Make different names (not something I do on pprune of course!).

The article is identical for each paper but the comments section is totally different. The quickest way to do it is to copy and paste.

[aussiepilot]

Guys,

It seems that you are having trouble getting the facts out to the public. The media is too busy mis-reporting or looking out for their advertising budget. The details that could win this fight are making their way onto PPRune, unfortunately Joe Public has never heard of this forum.

Perhaps someone tech savvy amongst you could set up a "Face book" group in support of Australian employees. Play the same game that AJ is playing, but put the truth out there. All the engineering issues, bad decisions and possible outcomes that offshoring can have should be posted. Counter the lies with calm explanations.

If everyone on here joins the group, then gets their friends and family to join, it would grow quickly. These days, the media and politicians pay more attention to social media then probably should be deserved, but this is the world we live in.
Eventually, the truth will reach the shareholders and maybe changes will occur.

The risk with this approach is it will not be annonymous. I don't know how that fits in with legal obligations/PIA. Hopefully someone could comment.

Finally, I am not a Qantas employee, but I am a professional pilot who has aspirations of possibly working there once I reach the end of my current career. This is just an idea I came up with this morning, hopefully it can be of use.

You have my full support.

[aussiepilot]

Further to my last.

This is one of many strategies that could be used.

Adverting and letters to the editor are also important.

Anything to get the message to the public.

[brown_hornet]

I'm also finding that you have to be flamin quick to comment otherwise you miss out on being published. You can hardly blame the people that comment negatively for writing what they do, heck I would if I wasn't in the industry and had little idea of the goings on. Might have to spend the days off hitting refresh just waiting for a new article so as to be the first to comment:8

[noip]

Many of the persons who commented have their fixed idea of reality and would only be irritated at having the facts getting in the way. They are there for the bloodsport and only too eagerly want to believe the "voice of authority", those respectable people trying to run a business.

I also saw a lot of respondents just tearing the article to pieces based on nothing more than it was clearly erroneous and mischievous.

There is a long way to go, and Andrew Denton's "Enough Rope" springs to mind.

N

[Keg]

ninemsn.com.au (http://ninemsn.com.au) has a poll running that says 'Are Qantas pilots paid too much'. The results so far are in favour of 'no'.

Vote early, vote often! (Please vote 'no'). I think we're paid 'fairly' for what we do. :ok:

[bobhoover]

it appears there is some media manipulation occuring again on the polls. Checked in and saw the NO vote in excess of 11,000, checked 5 mins later and it appeared the NO vote dropped back to 10,900 something:hmm:

[Mr. Hat]

Done. You can only vote once it's attached to the ip address.

No votes are ahead.

[Popgun]

AIPA - For the life of me I cannot understand why you haven't employed the (expensive) services of a top-notch PR firm.

If you have, then its time to fire them and use a different company.

Pilots fly planes. PR gurus sell (spin) messages.

For F@$ks sake, wake up to the peril approaching and SPEND SOME $$$$$ on a first rate PR consultancy who will be ON MESSAGE, ALL THE TIME, far better than any pilot!!!

PG

[Mr. Hat]

12800 No
8000 Yes

[LT Selfridge]

Some posters are putting a lot of weight on public perception. The bottom line is that the owners of all the mainstream media in Australia are on the side of Joyce and the Free Traders who control the government. No matter how many PR people you hire, the front page result will be the same. You will need to develop the stomach for a fight where you will not get support from the average punter - the issues are too complicated.

It comes down to solidarity - amongst yourselves and with other occupations that are being threatened by offshoring. If 90% of LH pilots vote and 90% of them vote for PIA - then you are in business, regardless of the MSM spin.

[Mr. Hat]

Totally agree but the point is every little bit counts.

[Sunfish]

FFS GET EXPERT PROFESSIONAL PR HELP!

Sorry for the shouting, but Joyces PR minions will have the next three stories already sitting on ice.

They will also have the script for the public interest stories ready to cut and paste for when you do strike, you know the ones with:

"My baby grand daughter is dying of Cancer in Brisbane and I'm stuck here in Hobart, thanks to those greedy pilots, it just isn't right."

Qantas goes to the Courts and has the strike declared illegal on essential public service grounds. The Gillard Government won't intervene because it could risk Abbott weighing in and causing the Government to fall if the independents side with Abbott.

You can do all you want with social media and it will help. but only if you have a professionally prepared list of talking points and stay on message.

I suppose it is just possible that the union might be playing a deep PR game, but I suspect its more likely that you think that because you are "professionals" you shouldn't stoop to the level of Joyces gutter tactics. Companies often request unions to be "gentlemanly" and "professional" in negotiations, don't fall for it. If that is the case, then I'm afraid you are fatally mistaken.

[nitpicker330]

Take out a full page advert in the daily papers explaining all of the issues.

And put a rocket under your President, he's not pushing the real issues enough.

Qantas are walking all over you guys.:{

[Tuner 2]

Sunfish,

FFS, THE PILOTS CANNOT CONTROL EVERY PIECE OF MEDIA THAT IS WRITTEN ABOUT THEM! You cannot engage one of the nationa's biggest companies and expect to have nothing but positive media stories. The Murdoch press and the Telegraph are, in my opinion, unlikely to give us much favourable coverage. That is just the way it is and we had better get used to it for a while. Your idea that hiring professional help will stop this kind of coverage is delusional in the extreme.

[nitpicker330]

Tuner Your idea that hiring professional help will stop this kind of coverage is delusional in the extreme

What the hell are you smoking? A professional PR group WILL go a long way to getting the QF Pilot's message out to the great unwashed who currently only see the QF PR SPIN from the QF overpaid PR machine.

[QAN_Shareholder]

a re-classification of what each level of pilots is paid, such as raising Boeing 767 pilots to the higher A330 rate (a more than 10 per cent increase) and the Boeing 747 to the A380 pay rate (a 5 per cent increase).


Could someone explain what the real story is here? The union claims the change is less than 1%, the above suggests it isn't. I don't know any better so I assume it is somewhere in between.

[Tuner 2]

AIPA does have full-time PR help. Unfortunately AIPA's PR people do not have the ability to demand that the Daily Telegrpah or Herald Sun or whatever publish stories to AIPA's satisfaction - NO PR FIRM HAS THIS ABILITY!

[nitpicker330]

AIPA does have full-time PR help

really? well then sack them and get another PR firm that has established contacts in the media stream.

You message isn't getting out there at all.

[Tuner 2]

Mate, you are kidding yourself if you think some PR firm that "has contacts" can so easily and heavily influence the editorial agenda of major newspapers or tv shows that derive their income from advertising.

If you, Sunfish, or anyone else knows of any such PR company, please call the AIPA office now on 02 8307 7777 and pass on the name of said organisation.

[rodchucker]

Who says editorials are the only place.... the places of influence are endless, you just need to get out there. Put your carefully prepared pilots out their, use the Sully interview, get him here if you can afford him or he wants to support you, just get out there.

Some of the responses here show why there is a problem and have no doubt there is a problem and the Rat is sitting back firing shots any way they choose because they are not being confronted in any professional manner.

Get out there please and get some advice.

[Tuner 2]

rodchucker, not sure you understand what I mean by "editorial agenda" - it does not just refer to the one column editorial in a newspaper on the letters page...

The extreme naivety on this thread is alarming. All these lovely motherhood statements about "get out there" and "get some professional help" ignore the reality that the form of media covering the story will shape and present the story as they choose to. You could do a two hour interview explaining every aspect of the pilots' case in perfect detail and language - BUT THIS DOES NOT MEAN IT WILL BE PUBLISHED - regardless of whether you have engaged no PR firm or the world's greatest BS artist!

It comes down to what the media WANTS to publish. Hence the pilots will get, in my opinion, more balanced coverage from the ABC and SMH than they will from the Telegraph.

[Capn Bloggs]

Re voting on Ninemsn:

You can only vote once it's attached to the ip address.

Not true. Close your browser, delete the Ninemsn cookie, then revote:

C:\Documents and Settings\Bloggs\Cookies\[email protected][2].txt

If they can bull****, we can cheat!

[Keg]

You can use different browsers too! :E

[brown_hornet]

just need to get a few more of these type of articles out there for everyone to read Qantas pilots reiterate dispute has nothing to do with pay (http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/153155/20110527/qantas-pilots-reiterate-dispute-has-nothing-to-do-with-pay.htm)

[FGD135]

Not true. Close your browser, delete the Ninemsn cookie, then revote:
...
If they can bull****, we can cheat!

You're wasting your time if you think that these online polls will have any influence on anything.

Everybody knows they are grossly unreliable (well, almost everybody).

The whole purpose of them is to get you to visit the website, or to return to the website. They are all about getting you to feel that you have made yourself heard - and so come back again another day - and be exposed again to the advertising messages being run by the website.

[job123]

facebook page appears out

Search "Qantas PIA"

or try this

Qantas PIA | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Qantas-PIA/151401831595939)

[job123]

looks like facebook page is up, feel free to comment there..

seach 'qantas pia' in search bar on facebook

[Mr. Hat]

Yes 16000
no 25000

[teresa green]

Who is this Capt. Peter Wilson that featured in the Australian Aviation spread today? Where does he fit into it?

[Keg]

QF Chief Pilot. Hasn't flown the line since he became the Chief Pilot. Reportedly he didn't fly the line when he was the A330 fleet manager either. It's been at least 3 years- possibly 6- since he's flown the line.

[teresa green]

:ugh:Welcome to the world of 89 boys and girls, where you become ridiculed, ostracized, degraded, laughed at, and denigrated. Does not matter if its 89 or 2011, you still bleed the same. And I truly believed it would never happen again.

[greentea84]

Just throwing my 2 bits in as an average Joe but the perception that Joyce as successfully portrayed on Pilots is that they all earn $500,000+ and are now just claiming for petty bonuses like free flights for families.

The PR team have turned the publics opinion against you by getting everyone to believe this is just a salary hike, not anything to do with job security.
A strike at this point will just hurt the cause even more.
A bit more spin will probably even see public support for 'strike breaker pilots'.

Im all for you guys, but unfortunately, as iterated many times already, you are losing this battle.

Whos your spokesman? At the moment you are just a faceless entity which is always much easier for the opposition to demonise.

[The Green Goblin]

I think it's time for AIPA to roll out the Pilots of QF32 as spokesmen.

The question is will they stand up and do it?

[Keg]

First rule of flying when something goes awry is to not panic, then sit on your hands and evaluate what is going on around you. Sort out the issues from the clanging of bells, whistles, etc. Only with a clear head can you respond appropriately. Even with the negative press the online vote on the ninemsn site is stagnating at about 2/3s of voters suggesting that Qantas pilots are NOT over paid.

The reality is that this made a great headline and if we get sucked into responding to every little thing regarding pay then it looks like pay actually is the issue. We don't have as many opportunities as Qantas and we certainly don't have the same headlines. Qantas pilots on average salary of $150K seek 2.6% and job security is nowhere near as sexy as what has been proffered from Qantas management.

Whilst I acknowledge that 'perception is reality', we're not even halfway through the first round of a 12 round title fight. QF is throwing everything they have at this thing and if the PIA actually kicks off then these sorts of headlines are going to be 'old news'. Thats when AIPA will have more clear air to tell our side of the story. That's when we as crew have the opportunity to talk directly to our passengers- the ones whom we know pay for our jobs- and to cut out the BS media spin.

Don't panic, sit on your hands, evaluate what is going on and then deal with the issues.

Pilot unity is the key. I look forward to the continued support of most PPRUNE contributors. :cool:

[ANCDU]

Kegs 100% spot on. AIPA will get all the free publicity it needs when PIA starts, whereas Qantas has basically shown its hand too early. They really have nowhere to go, and are very predictable in their use of the media. Its very early in the game.

[nitpicker330]

I agree with Teresa Green………..this is starting to sound and feel a lot like 1989 all over again:(


Pilot unity is the key

We had over 95% of all Australian Domestic Pilot's UNITED one month into the dispute after the planes were grounded in 1989 and look where that got us!!


yep, replaced…….


Be careful…..

[Mr. Hat]

Every little bit counts be it a vote on ninemsn, a comment on news.com, a chat to passengers or a matter of fact with relatives.

My friends and close relations are in no two minds about the matter. They ask and I give the warts and all story. They now know this is about getting the cheapest most inexperienced foreign labour to fly/maintain the national carrier around the world. I encourage them to watch Air Crash investigation and have a think about what the meaning of ZERO hull loss means.

I also make it very clear that I'm happy for people of any colour, shape, size, religion to fly in Australia with an Australian passport under the negotiated EBA conditions.

Every bit counts. Do your bit.

[campdoag]

Look at the Orange movement in the states!! We need to start something similar!!!

OPERATION ORANGE 2011 | Protecting the Flying Public & Restoring the Piloting Profession (http://www.operationorange2011.org/)

[Capn Bloggs]

The whole purpose of them is to get you to visit the website, or to return to the website. They are all about getting you to feel that you have made yourself heard - and so come back again another day - and be exposed again to the advertising messages being run by the website.
Oh, gee, I din't realise that. Those nasty rotters. Thanks for the tip! BTW, I like being exposed-to... Now, where's that cookie folder?!

[rodchucker]

Brilliant and inciteful.

Guys time to change the way you play whilst at the same time heeding the wisdom of Teresa.

I understand the need for caution but I don,t agree the Rat will run out of steam. They will have a room full of consultants who specialise in this stuff to keep finding new ground. The longer you wait, the harder it is to recover in my humble opinion.

You have so much right on your side, why wait?

Good luck.

[Mr. Hat]

Great link campdoag.

Link it up to this: [email protected]

[clotted]

Keg,
Qantas pilots on average salary of $150K seek 2.6%I'm told by people who claim to be in the know that if AIPA's pay claim succeeds you, as a 767 captain, stand to gain 2.6% pa CPI increase and an immediate increase of 7.5% because 767 pilots would be paid the same as 330 pilots and for anyone who hasn't got 12 years service in Qantas would immediately go to 12th year pay rate.

[Capt Kremin]

Four weeks till a PIA vote result is known. QF have blown their bolt too early.

Qantas would love this to degenerate into claim and counter-claim about pay when the real issue is their attempts to slash costs and outsource the airline.

This is a marathon, not a sprint.

[teresa green]

Us 89ers are getting the creeps. A few facts from one who has been there. (1) there will be pilots that will not join you. (2) be prepared for escalation. Sure up your finances, get a bit of work if needed from perhaps a tradie mate (and lose 5kgs) (3) accept the fact that the country is controlled by a Labor Govt, who has little time for captalist, elitist, money making, private school educated, nicking peoples seats on aircraft, pilots and that is you, or at least that is how you will be painted. No Labor govt. is going to support you. This is now the time to contact the Liberal Party, tell them your plans, ask for support, and they will, if Gillard gives you a spray in parliment, and she probably will. Contact your MP if Liberal, don't bother if Labor ( I say this from sad experience). (4) Your kids could suffer. Ours did. Kids can be cruel, tell them what is going on and why, otherwise in the school ground your kids could be tomented and bullied, sounds far fetched? It happened to many of our kids and that was 89. (5)Stick together, but some will still break rank, some will go the other way and become total mavericks, its human nature, This is of course for a situation that for all intents will not happen, but as pilots we were all trained to expect the unexpected, seach for a nice clean paddock, and never trust the bastard. Remember that. I am sorry it has come to this, I hoped it never would again, and I sincerely hope none of you ever have to go thru the **** that happened to us. Good luck

[RATpin]

Well said T.G.
Still remember the only Union leader at the time who stood up for the principle of supporting a union, no matter what,was George Campbell of the AMWU,later,Senator George Campbell. The only one of the union leaders at the time,who stood up for principle over the ACTU inspired desire to support Hawk and co.
As a side line, anybody interested in this era or constitutional law etc,(I've long since given up hope of the media examining this),would come to the realization,that under the constitution of Australia,the Air force could only be used Domestically, at the direction of the Governor General as the Queens representative,NOT,the Government of the day.I.E Hawk was in breach of the Constitution and the Media through ignorance or direction,said nothing!
The point being, for those who missed that party,Don't believe for a second,that they will play by accepted norms.

[LT Selfridge]

TG. You may be helping out with your victim homilies and the idea that one side of politics will be better than the other but what is required is a clear eyed determination to not be anyone's b1tch.

QF warriors. So you might lose your job - get prepared for that. Your kids may not get to have an i-pod for Christmas - inform them. Grow vegetables in your garden. Network with your friends. Stand up for yourselves and don't rely on politicians or media - make your own future.

Tenacitas per aspera

[HF3000]

I think it would be fair to agree that Abbott is not going to be the cure for the plight of the aviation industry in this country.

It's up to us, no Government will help.

We can do this, we just have to stay smart, stay united, and don't think it can be solved quickly. This is a campaign that will run for years, it may never stop. If we don't protect the industry, no-one else will.

Australians and Qantas passengers don't want off-shoring of safety critical jobs. Get that "money" argument off the public table and get it back to off-shoring. The "job security" argument should be better tabled as "stopping the off-shoring of safety critical jobs". Which is what it is.

[RATpin]

J.B. I'm not taking a political side either way,My father spent 28yrs with the Rat from the 50's to the 80's.I did my apprenticeship as a boilermaker.A long the way,I was a member of AMWSU,the TWU as a transport worker with the Rat and the AFAP as a Pilot.
Just trying to reiterate what T.G. was saying,there are many considerations in the world of politics and you would be foolish to think that because you believe you have righteousness on your side,outsiders will see it.
"those who forget the lessons of history are destined to repeat them" AND the "only thing new in the world,is the history you don't know yet."
Ignore it at your peril.

[RATpin]

And JB,the reason these old sayings are just as valid now as when they were written,is because technology may change(and of course it does)but we as humans don't.

[fearcampaign]

TG- This is nothing like 1989- 89 was UNPROTECTED industrial action. Pilots had to resign because they were getting sued, and of course they got replaced.It's Sad but this has nothing to do with 2011. We all know the pay is only 2.5% and is negotiable. The company is lying about the 26% to try it make it look like 89. Looks like you swallowed it hook line and sinker. Perhaps your fishing yourself????
What i really draw from your posts is that Qantas Pilots need to do this right.The guys stuffed it up in 89.
AIPA won back in 66 and they will win again. If we don't ensure Qantas Planes are flown by Qantas Pilots now then we may as well all resign now. It's put up or shut up time.

This final step has only been taken as it is PROTECTED. It was approved by a judge in FAIR WORK Australia. There are rules about what you can and cannot do. I say again it is PROTECTED. It is a legal right.

Even with the LIES from Qantas about 500k pay packets the poll/public were still in favour of us!!!!

We will never get 100% of what we want in the media.Some days we will win a little and some days we will lose a little.

Rather than bitch and moan on PPRUNE which is only read by pilots and management trolls i suggest the following;

-For the articles that support us, like them on your Face book page so your friends see them
-Email articles in favour to your friends
-Write a letter of reply to journos or write to your local mp
-Talk to friends/mates at the pub and keep them informed.
-If there is a radio show on, call up, change your name and let the bastards have it. Everyone has bottled up a spray to serve. Write it down in bullet points then call in
-If you have a problem/concern don't bottle it up. Call an AIPA rep. I did this a few days ago and it answered a lot of my questions. The guys have the finger on the pulse
-Spread the word on the line and remember who the enemy to job security is here
-If you get fired up then roll up your sleeves and get proactive!!! Don't Bitch on here and think anyone listens.

[FGD135]

Oh, gee, I din't realise that. Those nasty rotters. Thanks for the tip! BTW, I like being exposed-to... Now, where's that cookie folder?!

Your typically dopey response.


Even with the LIES from Qantas about 500k pay packets the poll/public were still in favour of us!!!!


So you believe an online poll that you own colleagues were feverishly falsifying? If you had read earlier in this thread you would have known this was happening.

If all the Qantas pilots are as gullible as you then they are in big trouble indeed.

[oicur12.again]

“No Labor govt. is going to support you. This is now the time to contact the Liberal Party, tell them your plans, ask for support, and they will”

NO modern Government of any political persuasion is going to do anything but support the mighty corporation. And that isn’t you.

“They now know this is about getting the cheapest most inexperienced foreign labour to fly . . . “

Exactly what mechanisms do QF have available to operate Australian registered aircraft on domestic services with foreign licensed pilots. I haven’t lived in Australia for 10 years now but have the laws changed that much?

[Gnadenburg]

You'll be right! Things are out of whack. Good luck ladies and gents.

[Sunfish]

Tuner says you are helpless.

Keg says wait till later.

With respect, neither of you understand the subject.

Waiting is no use. Public perceptions of the pilots are being built brick by brick, day by day. The airline keeps piling it on week by week and it builds up and sticks in peoples minds......."flyboys", "$500,000 paypacket"......mmmmh get me a beer and change to channel Seven, "pocket $200,000", "free flights anywhere in the world"......mmmh change to Channel Ten..


These are what are called "sounds bites" and they are the only thing that stick in most peoples minds for more than five seconds and they build up and clog peoples brains as they are supposed to.

The only counter to this is to produce your own sound bites, and it must be done professionally and it has to be done right now. On another thread the Panther did a reasonable job : "Qantasia" is an excellent sound bite. It summarises what Joyce wants to do to the airline. You need many, many more sound bites right now, starting with a lot about greedy managers, dodgy Chinese quality - it can be as xenophobic as you like because sound bites appeal to peoples vices, not virtues.

But it needs to be done now and got out through social media, bar talk, emails, jokes, etc. etc. Paul Keating was a master at this, remember his plan for tax increases and his crack about the dangers of getting between a Yuppy and a pile of money?

I've heard this same "all in good time" argument about starting PR campaigns and every time people did this, they f%^d it up. Do it now. Prior planning prevents piss poor etc.,etc.


Now to Tuners point you are not helpless at all!!!!! Firstly journos are lazy. The idea of good PR is to write the story for them, that's what press releases are about, however if you don't get them out there, and plenty of them, why the f&*k would a bored and busy journalist take the time to really find out what you are going on about? He gets a press release from Qantas with a juicy quote from AJ, he gets SFA from your union or a stiffly worded denial of what AJ said. What the f%^k is the journo going to do? He cuts and pastes the Qantas press release and in the last sentence, which most d1ckheads won't even get to he writes "AIPA officials denied this claim" or "AIPA officials were unavailable for comment."

You need a PR genius who can write nice, juicy, sweet, tender stories that are just as malicious and venomous as the Qantas stuff. You don't want the Captain of QF32 spouting about pay rates, you want the head of the union saying "send that f&**ing Irish Leprechaun back where he came from, we don't need his type in Australia to tell us how to run an airline. Qantas is staffed and run by Australians and we mean to keep it that way"; that will make the papers.

And of course all publicity is good publicity, the papers can then run an apology to an outraged AJ and the Irish community and a photo of the head of AIPA drinking Guiness with someone Irish. Result: The public now knows who the head of the AIPA is and what he stands for, and a lot will agree with him....and of course every time after that when they see AJ on television they will think....."fukcing irish leprechaun" and stop believing him.


If you do not understand how all this works I can't help you. If you don't understand that media is a blood sport I can't help you. The fight you are in does not operate by Marquis of Queensberry rules. Get professional help, fast.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Sunfish - Your words are quite wise and I agree with most the content. When I did my media training I was taught to stick to 5 key points and to keep repeating them over and over again. The points can't be 25 words sentences, just something as simple as "Qantasia". If you or anyone else can list the 5 key points that you think we, that is the Engineers and the Pilots, should be repeating over and over again, it would be much appreciated.

We have already ruled out "working families" and "moving forward".

[Capt_SNAFU]

Clotted Keg,
Quote:
Qantas pilots on average salary of $150K seek 2.6%

I'm told by people who claim to be in the know that if AIPA's pay claim succeeds you, as a 767 captain, stand to gain 2.6% pa CPI increase and an immediate increase of 7.5% because 767 pilots would be paid the same as 330 pilots and for anyone who hasn't got 12 years service in Qantas would immediately go to 12th year pay rate.

The people are not in the know. The 2.5% is different from the payload scales. The payload scales are a union claim but it has no timetable for introduction and the union are not calling for it's introduction from day one of the agreement, also like all claims apart from job security it is up for negotiation, though from what the union tell us managment have spent little to no time actually discussing union claims.

[rodchucker]

Sunfish,

You are absolutely right but there is this overwhelming lack of response that beggars belief when so many are trying to support the good guys.

I know battles are not won on this site, but I watch news and read papers and I know what I am not seeing.

I want the Rat Execs exposed for what is happening but am getting tired of seeing nothing to even start the process to achieve that end.

I am even more surprised that the wisdom of you and others is being dismissed by a wait and see approach without any seeming acceptance the points may be valid.

[prairiegirl]

1. THE LAW OF LEADERSHIP. It is better to be first than it is to be better.
2. THE LAW OF THE CATEGORY. If you can't be first in a category, set up a new category you can be first in.
3. THE LAW OF THE MIND. It is better to be first in the mind than to be first in the marketplace.
4. THE LAW OF PERCEPTION. Marketing is not a battle of products, it's a battle of perceptions.
5. THE LAW OF FOCUS. The most powerful concept in marketing is owning a word in the prospect's mind.
6. THE LAW OF EXCLUSIVITY. Two companies cannot own the same word in the prospect's mind.
7. THE LAW OF THE LADDER. The strategy to use depends on which rung you occupy on the ladder.
8. THE LAW OF DUALITY. In the long run, every market becomes a two horse race.
9. THE LAW OF THE OPPOSITE. If you are shooting for second place, your strategy is determined by the leader.
10. THE LAW OF DIVISION. Over time, a category will divide and become two or more categories.
11. THE LAW OF PERSPECTIVE. Marketing effects take place over an extended period of time.
12. THE LAW OF LINE EXTENSION. There is an irresistible pressure to extend the equity of the brand.
13. THE LAW OF SACRIFICE. You have to give up something to get something.
14. THE LAW OF ATTRIBUTES. For every attribute, there is an opposite, effective attribute.
15. THE LAW OF CANDOR. When you admit a negative, the prospect will give you a positive.
16. THE LAW OF SINGULARITY. In each situation, only one move will produce substantial results.
17. THE LAW OF UNPREDICTABILITY. Unless you write your competitor's plans, you can't predict the future.
18. THE LAW OF SUCCESS. Success often leads to arrogance, and arrogance to failure.
19. THE LAW OF FAILURE. Failure is to be expected and accepted.
20. THE LAW OF HYPE. The situation is often the opposite of the way it appears in the press.
21. THE LAW OF ACCELERATION. Successful programs are not built on fads, they're built on trends.
22. THE LAW OF RESOURCES. Without adequate funding, an idea won't get off the ground.

[Mr. Hat]

Great post Sunfish.

If there was ever a time for qf pilots to put their hands in their pockets this is it. You need billboards, you need a campaign like those seen at election time.

Maybe a nice list of QF management gems:

Maintenance offshoring
Tax and super evasion thru overseas ventures
Dixon departure payout with the 0 cent dividend to the shareholders.

You guys know the details better than me.

[27/09]

ALAEA Fed Sec

The Qantasia quote is a good start.

I'll give you a some more items for starters

Focus on the outsourcing, how much work is done in house now compared to say 10 years ago. By outsourcing I mean everything, from support functions like IT through to engineering and pilots etc. Oursourcing here means anything that was done by a Qantas staff member that is now done by a contractor or subsidiary Qantas company whether is be in Australia or overseas.

Get the figures and start quoting percentage comparisions. Point out how Qantas is becoming less Australian. Clever wording can make it look that all the outsourcing has been off shored. Remember there's, lies, damn lies, and there's statistics. Also the first casualty in any war is the truth.

Start quoting reliability/failure rates and compared the pre outsourcing times, assuming they have deteriorated as people are suggesting.

Compare Qantas executive pay rises with the average working mans wage increases over that last 10 years.

Highlight the poor decisions re aircraft choices, i,e no 777's

You need to make the management look bad, not just once but with continual tid bits of information, and it needs to start immediately. Public opinion is what is important, keeping the powder dry for the big day will never work.

You guys have the moral high ground but that on it's own isn't going to win the battle, you need to get down and dirty like the other side have been doing.

[27/09]

Mr Hat beat me to it to some extent.

[breakfastburrito]

Thank prairiegirl.

If you want a deep understanding of the propaganda forces at work over the last 100 years, there is an excellent BBC series called "The Century Of Self (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Century_of_the_Self)" in four parts, each almost an hour. This series provides an excellent primer into the psychological techniques of propaganda that have been successfully honed over the last century by big business and governments. These same techniques & methodologies will be deployed both against you, and in the media. I would consider this essential viewing to help you maintain your sanity during this process. It is much easier to recognise & counteract if you know the what weapons the enemy has. Make no mistake, the corporations consider that they are at war with you, even if you don't consider yourself at war with them.

You may or may not have any belief in the theories and techniques Freud and psychoanalysis. You may consider it all psychobabble, but that won't stop these techniques being deployed against you & in the media.

Part 1 - Happiness Machines
Part 2 - The Engineering of Consent
Part 3 - There is a Policeman Inside All Our Heads: He Must Be Destroyed
Part 4 - Eight People Sipping Wine in Kettering

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I know the full picture guys and can talk until the cows come home. I need 5 short quotes or catch phrases. In the press you have a matter of seconds, there is no time for stories and you rarely get to elaborate.

I like -


Qantasia; and
Management are tearing down the foundations of an Australian icon.
If you can think of some better or simpler ones please add to the list.I'm looking for ones that cover both groups so we can run them together.

[Popgun]

Sunfish is right on the money. Until AIPA pay the significant $$$$$ to a first rate public relations consultancy to run the PR war the fight will be lost.

PG

[maui]

Fearcampaign

Just a couple of points.

AIPA did not exist in 66. That was an AFAP (overseas branch) action.

Protected/unprotected industrial action is a recent concept and did not exist in '89.

Maui

[Swimbetweentheflags]

* Alan Joyce still paid millions whilst share price in the doldrums.
* Qantas spin more than a Warnie flipper does.

[rodchucker]

Quote Sully...is this the level of safety we want to fly or something like that?

[The Green Goblin]

Qantas bullying staff
Irish invention = qantasia
Qantas spirit of Asia
Irishman tanks Qantas share price and blames staff
failed Ansett management running Qantas
Wrong equipment and wrong CEO

p.s I think it's time the staff passed a vote of no confidence in the CEO and board. That would make some headlines!

[fishers.ghost]

Cant post a link, sorry.
Essentially a fluff piece pro Qantas with some interersting Engineering Stats

[Short_Circuit]

qantas.not.au :yuk:

[Mstr Caution]

Leprechaun's pot of gold - hidden from Qantas staff & shareholders.

or

According to Irish Legend - A Leprechaun will do anything to keep HIS own pot of gold safe.

[Romulus]

I know the full picture guys and can talk until the cows come home. I need 5 short quotes or catch phrases. In the press you have a matter of seconds, there is no time for stories and you rarely get to elaborate.

Refer the mining industry campaign, that's how it's done.


Qantasia

Too self interested.

Everyone feels their job is going to Asia these days and they think you have it easy. Won't do it for you, doubly so given that the not just the average punter thinks Emirates, Singapore etc stand for a level of quality and service you guys (you are all QF after all) don't do any longer and that you're overpaid compared to the foreign people. If we all have to face competition why don't you?

Speaking honestly - SIA and Emirates are a better customer experience, simple as that. And that is part of your problem, there's little sympathy out there for your plight because you don't actually do anything for us that is so great. Pilots because they're just bedhopping flyboys who don't do much more than bus drivers and LAMEs because you're just bus mechanics as far as the person in the street is concerned.

If planes from other carriers fell out of the sky then you'd have a chance, but as it is you're just seen as part of an organisation that's too expensive for second tier service. Which makes it very easy for QF and others to paint you as they do.

And that's the crux of it, they're painting you and they're making the running in the public sphere and they're making you look like the bad guys.


Management are tearing down the foundations of an Australian icon.

Um, aren't YOU the ones going on strike and disrupting me?

Why should the average person feel obliged to assist you? All Alan wants to do is make you earn your pay and you're just wanting to slack off.

The "Australian icon" is well and truly overplayed and is a cliche that weakens your case unless you do something a bit unusual. Maybe get that song the Chaser guys did and flog that for a bit.


If you can think of some better or simpler ones please add to the list.I'm looking for ones that cover both groups so we can run them together.

Basic rules apply
1) tell me why it is in my self interest to care about you
2) tell me why you aren't the bad guy in this battle

The first the miners did well with their campaign, problem you have is that QF lead in no section of the market, there are plenty of Low cost guys out there now and the premium service of Qantas, well, it isn't.

So fight them with direct hard facts:

When SARS hit times were tough for the company and we took 0% rises. The CEO and Board took X%

When 9/11 occurred times were tough and we took 0% for the good of the company. The CEO and Board took Y%

In the last 10 years we've received A%, the CEO (including bonuses etc) has taken B%

If you take the money the CEO was going to make personally from the takeover then that would cover our requested payrise for N months.


And then trivialise the amount you are seeking:

If you take the entire pay rise we're asking for then that represents 2.3 cents per ticket. I mean come on, Joyce is on millions and he won't even consider 2.3c per ticket? And you wonder why we're upset!

Use correct figures of course. Even better to use QF figures so there's no way they can immediately counterattack by challenging your numbers.


You need to make your opponents look like the greedy ones and yourself as being purely angelic or as close as you can get. Forget being all technical, nobody in the rest of the world cares if QF bought 777s or the like, they only care about what affects them.

Sunfish is right, you guys are fighting the wrong war. Get genuine PR in from the outside.

[h.o.t.a.s.]

Fantastic Post Romulus.

Hopefully the people pulling the levers are onto it.

[aussiepilot]

A few weeks ago someone quoted a manager saying that Qantas could cope with one complete hull loss without damaging the brand.

If there is proof to back up that attitude, it could make one hell of a story...

[600ft-lb]

If you want to take it the same way management have been playing just quote any figure you want, using your own 'internal modelling'.

It doesn't matter if its true or not, its a soundbite, its a headline, that's what sets the tone for the rest of the article for uninformed masses.

Qantas management know that, that's why they're able to get away with blatant lies, like $145million for 2 tickets per pilot..

"Alan Joyce's malfunctioning calculator" is the best quote I've heard from the pilot side so far. He needs to be ridiculed in a short effective sentence like that.

[distracted cockroach]

I don't agree with much Sunfish has said over the years, but he has this one exactly right.
I fear though, it may be too late. The outsourcing arguement should have been fought when the first Jetconnect flight flew trans Tasman, what, 9 years ago? For some reason the Qantas pilots sat idly by and let it happen. Then along came Jetstar and a bad situation got worse, and still nothing was done. Now, years later, there is finally a realisation that the situation is presenting an imminent and very real threat to Qantas pilot's careers and livelihoods....and still you can only read about it on Pprune?
For goodness sake, you have sat and watched while management have successfully undermined you for nearly 10 years, and only now you are thinking, maybe we should be doing something?
I went through the Ansett NZ lockout /restructure/bankruptcy/receivership/liquidation and through some poor representation and leadership, along with a surprisingly ruthless management approach, we got well and truely screwed. Even now, people recall the "pilot's strike" when in fact the management locked us out. Exactly the same thing could happen to Qantas mainline pilots, and our management didn't have 2 other airlines they also owned who could take over. Just because you are an "Aussie Icon", doesn't mean you are somehow invulnerable.
Get a serious PR campaign underway to try and make up some lost ground. You have a hell of a lot of work to do, and I honestly hope it isn't too late.

[breakfastburrito]

For some reason the Qantas pilots sat idly by and let it happen.
I disagree, lets just say things came to a HOLT. Sunny days.

[Going Boeing]

Posted by Romulus:
All Alan wants to do is make you earn your pay and you're just wanting to slack off.

Wrong, Leigh Clifford and Alan Joyce simply do not want mainline pilots in their "future Qantas" even if we worked at GA rates of pay.

Romulus, we are fighting to keep our jobs - all the other crap in the media is simply smokescreen.

Great post Sunfish.

[take procedure]

If the pilots are kamikaze then the qantas board are on a "Banzai Charge"

The main difference between kamikaze and banzai is that death was inherent to the success of a kamikaze attack, whereas a banzai charge was only potentially fatal — that is, the infantrymen hoped to survive but did not expect to.

"Operation Ten Go" was a "Banzai Charge" at the battle of Okinawa. the japs intended to beach the battleship Yamato to provide support to the "enemy" forces. the allies incorrectly thought they would be dealing with kamikaze pilots.

are we witnessing "Operation Ten Go 2", with "Qantas Mainline" being beached to support the enemy. Or is it "Operation 1700 Go"!

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i guess our irish friend does not know his "Bushido" code. and to think he wants to start jetstar japan.
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[amos2]

Hmmm!...let's have a bit of a think about this possible strike action by the Qantas long haul pilots. Does it include the Qantas short haul pilots?

Does it include the Jetstar pilots?

Are Qantas short haul pilots members of AIPA?

Are Jetstar pilots members of AIPA? If not, do they have their own union?

And what about Virgin pilots, are they members of AIPA, or perhaps the Jetstar pilot union?

Or do they have their own union? Perhaps the AFAP?

And, are all of the above groups in non compulsory unions?

And, are all the possible union groups mentioned above in rapport and sympathy with each other?

I certainly hope so, because if not...

...well, I'll leave that for you to think about!

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Thank you Romulus. I knew you would not be seeing our campaign through rose coloured glasses but some of your advice is good. Just a couple of points -

Um, aren't YOU the ones going on strike and disrupting me?

We haven't yet.

Sunfish is right, you guys are fighting the wrong war. Get genuine PR in from the outside.


Not sure about the pilots but we do have a media company that advises and helps us prepare. At the end of the day, our message is delivered by Paul Cousins and I no matter who is assiting or advising us. We have done our media training and just need the 5 key ponits. The AIPA message similarly will be delivered by Barry and Richard. It gives it far more credibility than a spokesmodel.

[Chimbu chuckles]

and just need the 5 key points

What the hell are you paying the PR company for?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

What the hell are you paying the PR company for?


I don't like their points, you guys can come up with some better ones.

[nitpicker330]

I've flown with some pretty savvy switched on people over the years and what we need is to find someone ( Pilot, Engineer, Flight Attendant etc ) to setup a Professional PR firm with the express intent of providing a unique specialized service to all the Aviation Unions for times just like this.

Surely there must be somebody working in the industry or recently retired with the skills that could take on this role full time.

They certainly would have plenty of work to keep them busy both here and abroad ( Cathay's union the HKAOA could certainly use them too )

Anybody?

[rodchucker]

The AIPA message similarly will be delivered by Barry and Richard. It gives it far more credibility than a spokesmodel

Sorry to disagree but think you need to look at the views of many expressed on that front. Whether we are right or wrong who knows, but as joe public we have a view.

And we are on your side.

[Gotnogoals]

"Qantas Pilots Donate Their Pay to Charity"
- could the donation of one days (basic hrs) pay per pilot be donated to charity. The total amount donated would be significantly less than the amounts published in the media ($350k-$500pa) thus proving what lies have be been spun lately. Obviously this would be a great headline and many questions would follow as to why pilots have done so. The amount donated could be compared against things such as, the same amount as what the CEO earns in a week, or as a percentage to what was wasted in cartel fines.
There are means through payroll to do this easily. If the company refused this request from pilots then it would give even better news headlines.
"Qantas Keeps Thousands in Charity Donation", not entirely true but close enough.
I would give up a days pay for charity. I already donate more than this a year anyway. Could be perfect timing seeing its the Salvation Army Red Shield Appeal tomorrow.
Just a thought?

[bobhoover]

perhaps a donation to the RFDS would be more appropriate, not to say that one charity is more important than another though

[BeerMan]

Great Idea... I'd go further. To demonstrate that this dispute is "not about the pay", I'd even donate the entire first year additional income attributable to any salary %age increase (All 26% of it!!!!!!)... only so long as QANTAS gives us the job security clause!

[TAL]

Great idea!!
It would certainly make front page and get the public onside.
Who could implement such an idea?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Sorry to disagree but think you need to look at the views of many expressed on that front. Whether we are right or wrong who knows, but as joe public we have a view.



Not sure what you disagree with. I think we all agree that the right message needs to be delivered. If the message is right, is it better coming from a Pilot or a spokesmodel? If its a Pilot, it would be either Barry or Richard.

[Sonny Hammond]

BreakkyBurrito is HOLTingly accurate.

The union powers that be at the time were hand delivered the msg on J* before it happened but chose to COMPLETELY ignore the info.

Why was that?

It really is no wonder things are as they are. It is apparent that the mis-representation at 'the union' over those years really is a disgrace.

[prairiegirl]

qantas.not.au -

the public might relate to the outsourcing of australian jobs a lot better than they will relate to wage increase issues.

who hasn't been affected by outsourcing? ever call telstra?!? lol

right or wrong, the australian masses will for the most part, not make as much money as you do (or are perceived to do, don't want to go there) - how can they relate to a guy that makes $200K a year and 'works' two weeks a month? I know you don't work a mere two weeks a month - but they don't, and I don't know if you'll ever be able to buy a newspaper ad or tv spot long enough to explain it let alone make the masses read the darn thing or listen.

find a spin doctor boys, find a spin doctor.

[prairiegirl]

this is about the future - can the masses equate 'future' with a 50 year old guy in a tv spot - find the youngsters in your group, with families.

the median age of the australian population is 36 - 36 = kids, mortgage, car payment, and lots of stress being in the middle of your career and how to progress, blah blah blah.

36 year olds have a hard time relating to 50 year old guys that have been at the same job for 25-30 years and are perceived to make a helluva lot more money than them, not mention their kids are out of the house. they have different realities entirely.

[rodchucker]

ALEA Fed Sec,

I think the problem raised related to the Sunrise show particularly where not only was the message missed but also the delivery was an issue. Seemed that it may have been advisable to look at the approach.

No disrespect to the individuals, but this is a tough gig and they are up against the best spin doctors, so maybe matching like with like would be a good start.

You need to bring the fight up to them and bring Joe Public with you. Sadly that just is not happening at the moment. Half the battle in these events is getting the public on side, you have that but are leaving them posted wondering what is going on (in my view) as the Rat spins constantly.

cheers and good luck

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

I'm in my 30's. When my wife and I wake up each morning we don't turn on Sunrise or the Today show or any other news program, we find out what is happening in our lives via Facebook.

The news will come when we turn on the radio, but that is not relevant to this.

I get bombarded with stuff on my Facebook from a Facebook friend about American news, as he is American, some of it interesting, and some not. However it is there with the headline and usually a picture for me to read.

I just had a quick look for AIPA on Facebook. There is a page, but you cannot become a friend, all you can do is "like" it.

Imagine if all of my Facebook friends, and all of their Facebook friends and so on, logged onto Facebook and there was headline "The truth about Qantas pilot wages", or Qantas lies to public about engineers claims. A lot of people might say, Ok I'll have a quick look. Might change a few minds. It would cost virtually nothing, and AIPA could write the stuff themselves. No shoddy journalism. And with the way Facebook works, it would be on everybody's Facebook page that is a "Friend" of the last. It would go Viral in seconds.

Why hasn't this been done?

My point being mostly, people don't watch sunrise. That bloody woman drives me nuts. Get with the times guys. Forget retaliating via TV or print, no one will listen. Social media is the way to go.

Note, it is this site that is changing my post to FacePPrune.

[peuce]

I think it may have been done already, but:

" I still call Australia ... by phone"

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e115/sosvideo/step9.jpg


:=:=:=:=:=

[crosscutter]

A few catch phrases:

Qantas: Safety first Qantas Asia: 98% Safe
Qantas Asia: The worlds most inexperienced airline
Qantas Asia: Made in China

Personally I think "Qantasia", whilst a great play...should not be used as it requires some interpretation. For a media campaign it needs to be simple and instantly understood...so I think "Qantas Asia" should be used. My two cents

[Romulus]

Wrong, Leigh Clifford and Alan Joyce simply do not want mainline pilots in their "future Qantas" even if we worked at GA rates of pay.

Romulus, we are fighting to keep our jobs - all the other crap in the media is simply smokescreen.


GB, your post highlights the issue. You have my argument 180 degrees from where it is. That is the key thing about media, you need to make sure your message is out there in the way you want it.

I agree, you're fighting to keep your jobs. Now tell me why, as a member of the general public, in a way that resonates and gets media traction, I care about that? Sure it matters to *YOU*, equally as I pointed out earlier, that doesn't matter in the media war. You need to convince Joe Public of that. And it's not just because "QF are so good they're the best" because it's pretty obvious that, given the others aren't exactly falling out of the sky on a regular basis, you're not.

And remember to put yourself in Joe Public's shoes. Everyone is under the threat of being outsourced to India/China/wherever. What makes you so special? Why should I care when overpaid flyboys have to face the real world? If you're making $500K a year to have the fun of flying a plane, chasing hosties and travelling the world then suck it up the punters will say.

That's the perception you're fighting, you need to address that in the way that the public will buy into. Heck, even the wharfies got the public on side so why aren't you guys?

Let's be clear - YOU ARE CURRENTLY LOSING THE PUBLIC VOTE.

And that makes your opposition stronger.

And out in public land that smokescreen you refer to is working. You can yell and scream and call it a smokescreen all you like, but you're losing because of it. Either you find some way to blow it back at QF or you'll find that the smokescreen enveloping you is actually mustard gas and you're campaign is dead.

[Romulus]

Thank you Romulus. I knew you would not be seeing our campaign through rose coloured glasses but some of your advice is good. Just a couple of points -

I don't know enough about the pilot situation to really comment except in the general terms that I have, I do care more about the engineering side. In the same way I got to know everyone by name at AAES when I was there I got to know the history hence the comments on SARS and 9/11. There is an opportunity in Aus aviation to streamline QF maintenance but doing it through pay conditions isn't the way to go and if it's done well it brings a lot of stuff back on shore.


Um, aren't YOU the ones going on strike and disrupting me?
We haven't yet.

The comment about striking was meant to represent what the average flyer will believe is happening.

Actually, what you did was worse. I changed my travel plans and rescheduled some meetings on the day you intended to strike, no big deal to me, a little inconvenient perhaps but, overall, fair given you gave me plenty of notice.

Then you didn't strike that day and changed it to another day which meant the rescheduled meetings were, you guessed it, rescheduled again. I'm starting to be disrupted in my overall work rather than just shuffling a few things around (which happens anyway) and when I or my admin people talk to other people they all go "Damn engineers and their union". Now you're starting to piss the people I'm working with off, you're pissing the people I'm meeting with off and that starts to piss me off. You're starting to disrupt me as part of your fight with your boss and what can I do about that? You can see where I'm going, you know I have a fair knowledge of your situation, you should know I'm actually reasonably sympathetic in that informed way, but what do you expect the uninformed (and there's no real reason they should be informed) majority to do?

Think of Paul Keating and interest rates. He certainly went way to high but what he did was correct, a massive correction to clean out the crap and make it clear he was serious rather than fiddling about with rates like they do now. Make it clear you will take the action you propose and management will get the message. Denial is a very powerful human emotion, we all do it. QF management will treat you like nurses are treated, they will believe you won't act so much because you care too much about you airline in the way that nurses care about their patients.

If you're going to strike, then announce it and strike. Stick to it. You've warned us, the public, well ahead of time and whilst we think it's dreadful we accommodate. Borghetti loves it and pitches some kind of deal to get business travellers to see Virgin as a real alternative (If I were him I'd go to all the corporate travel arrangers like Carlson Wagonlit and give free upgrades to their top tier corporates on the days you guys are on strike to get them into the new product) and you really, really, slam your management whilst impacting the public the least.

Think about the key message in that last paragraph. Imagine the opportunity for Virgin, the competition (and no, I do not regard Tiger as QF competition in this regard) and what that means to QF management. THAT is your schwerpunkt, your point of maximum attack. QF don't mind a lot of things and will clearly fight you but if the activities seem to help the competition to a significant degree then you are playing a card that makes them crap themselves.


Sunfish is right, you guys are fighting the wrong war. Get genuine PR in from the outside.
Not sure about the pilots but we do have a media company that advises and helps us prepare. At the end of the day, our message is delivered by Paul Cousins and I no matter who is assiting or advising us. We have done our media training and just need the 5 key ponits. The AIPA message similarly will be delivered by Barry and Richard. It gives it far more credibility than a spokesmodel.

To be fair the ALAEA does it far better than the pilots are doing it, plus you have the advantage of not beign seen as some rich boys flying club with all the perks of global travel and glam hosties on tap (regardless of what the reality is) . It is critical that you or PC do the talking as a "man of the workers/people" as opposed to an attractive spokesbint who is immediately tagged with "ooh, look, a bimbo". You are the working class guys, getting shafted by greedy management, etc etc etc. You don't *SAY* that, you let people come to that conclusion themselves and it is way more powerful a message then.

Here's a quick "media soundbite". As always, make sure to put real figures in there.

"Engineers 3%, that's 2c per ticket, after we sought no payrise when times really were tough (SARS, 9/11), CEO 37% plus millions in options and what did that role take in the years of SARS and 2001? How does that make sense? Who is the greedy party here. And by the way, if we do go on strike we'll give plenty of notice so the only real inconvenience is to QF management. Business travellers might like to see if John Borghetti at Virgin will give them a free upgrade to trial his business class product..."

I don't care about safety as a front of mind thought, it's what's called a hygeine factor, I just assume it's there. Sure, I don't fly some third world airlines because I perceive they are too dodgy but in your category pick any of them, even Air France with their current issue, and I don't think the average punter will ever say they are unsafe. Focus on what makes a difference to me to win the publicity war, focus on what strikes fear into AJ and win that war. I've flown Virgin's new class and if AJ doesn't crap himself when others do as well then he's really, REALLY in trouble. They were good, very good. But it takes people to experience that to believe Virgin is not some lower status airline than QF because of their semi LCC legacy. That's a lever to get Joyce jumping to your tune.

How they respond to that will be interesting.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Very good advice again thanks.

[prairiegirl]

i hope they have a couple of young guys like you on the EC at AIPA!

Pprune has lots to loose if Facepprune catches on with the older set, as do lots of industry specific sites.... cracks me up but it's so bloody spot on.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

"Hungry Beast" this Wednesday 2130 ABC1 (check your local guides), it looks like they are having a go at QF/Jet Connect regarding the off shoring issue. It may be a fairly low brow, satirical TV show, but it has a public audience none the less.

[assasin8]

The link to this article was posted under another thread, but I thought it should also appear here, as it goes to the public arena...
The real Qantas kamikaze - to be sure to be sure | Daily Telegraph Miranda Devine Blog (http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/mirandadevine/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/the_real_qantas_kamikaze/)

Good to see some balance...:D