New JQ Contract

[P2T2]

From AIPA:

Jetstar declares war on its pilot group, collective bargaining and the Australian Industrial Relations System

In a cynical and underhanded, though widely anticipated move, Jetstar has announced that it no longer intends to employ pilots on Jetstar Airways Pilots Agreement 2008. And, when they did decide to talk to us, the Jetstar pilots, about it, they refused to do so in the presence of our legal representatives – representation we are legally entitled to.

Instead, in the true vein of contempt and divisiveness for which Jetstar management has become synonymous, the Company has announced that future employment of pilots will be outsourced to a newly created “shell company”, known simply as ‘a Jetstar Group Company’. In actual fact, it is an Australian registered company called Jetstar Group Pty Limited.

The proposed terms and conditions of the ‘Jetstar Group Contract’ are shocking to say the least. Pilots are ostensibly employed as ‘part time pilots’ but are essentially expected to work for, or to be available to work for more days per month than current Jetstar pilots employed on the EBA. The contract is supposedly based on the Air Pilots Award 2010, however ‘Blind Freddy’ could see that the terms and conditions are markedly inferior in practical terms, due to its ‘part time’ nature!

As a brief summary, for the Jetstar Group Pilot Contract, the pilots are told that they are initially to be ‘based’ in Australia. The Company can, at its absolute discretion, move them to any other base on its network without warning or notice and they will be paid there on ‘local terms and conditions’.

These are NOT Australian pilot positions, but Jetstar can use these pilots to
undermine EBA pilots’ terms and conditions of employment. Jetstar currently has a shortfall of pilots in both New Zealand and Singapore. If it suits them (and at the moment it definitely will suit them) these pilots WILL be force-moved to one of these countries and have no legal recourse to decline, except for “doing a runner”- which comes with SIGNIFICANT penalties.

They will be paid $101 per block hour if they are actually employed in Australia.

There is no guarantee that they will not be shifted overseas at any time on
substantially lower terms and conditions!

They are guaranteed a minimum of 150 block hours per quarter (600 block hours a year) for these ostensibly ‘part time’ positions. There is no guarantee of a pay rise indefinitely.

Australian based pilots are guaranteed a minimum annual salary of AU$60,600.

There is no seniority list, so not only can these pilots be used to take hard earned positions away from EBA pilots, they can also be pit against one another, with only those toeing the company line with the most zealous self-depreciation being considered for favours such as promotion or simply not being sent overseas on even less money.

With regards to rostering, they are guaranteed to be paid for 150 block hours per quarter. They have 9 days off per month.

If the Company chooses to roster them for 50 hours per month, and assuming an average block time of 5 hours per day for domestic operations, this will leave these pilots with 10 days’ work per month. They have 9 days off so the remaining 11-12 days per month WILL BE SPENT ON STANDBY. They may be classified “PART TIME” but the Company will own their souls FULL TIME.

Alternatively, the Company may choose to roster them for 75 block hours for month 1 and 2 (with 6-7 standby days) and leave them on standby (21 or 22 days of it) for the entirety of month 3. The reason for this is to cover any schedule disruptions, sick leave, etc from EBA crew and to prevent existing EBA crew any hope of achieving overtime or day off payments.

That being said, it is not in the Company’s interest to have these pilots working much over their minimum guarantee hours as this gives them ‘maximum flexibility’ and allows them to build up an alternative labour force to offset any potential industrial action that may occur when our EBA expires in 2013.

In addition to this, for their first year of employment the pilots can be dismissed for any reason by the Company, giving them 2 weeks’ notice (see clause 17.1). In this case they will have to pay back the grossly inflated $40,000 for their A320 endorsement, and will of course be out of a job.

There are many other pitfalls of the Jetstar Group Contract but we have merely touched on some of the most glaring and obvious ones.

These prospective employees have also been furnished with a document called ‘the Jetstar Group Policy’. It is very important to understand that this policy is absolutely binding on the employees, but is in no way binding on the Company!

The pilots’ obligations:

2.1. Employees must be familiar with this Policy. Where this Policy places
obligations on employees, you must comply with them. A breach of this Policy may warrant disciplinary action, up to and including termination of employment.

As opposed to the Company’s obligations:

2.2. From time to time, amendments to this Policy will be required to reflect
changes to the Company’s operational requirements and any legislative changes. The Company may review, vary, add to or withdraw this Policy (or any part of it) from time to time in its absolute discretion.

2.3. To avoid doubt, this Policy and any obligations on the Company set out in it do not form part of an employment agreement, and are not contractually binding on the Company.

‘Jetstar Group Company’ pilots will be subjected to a pay for endorsement scheme (it is not a bond unless they leave). This entitles the Company to charge them, or deduct from their salary AU$40,000 for an A320 endorsement (possibly more in certain cases). Alteon currently charges approximately $29,000 for these endorsements for an individual ‘off the street’. Those deducting from their salary may be able to salary
sacrifice over a period of no more than 33 pay periods (months). If the individual leaves the Company or is dismissed for any reason (though it could be no fault of their own) then they have to pay back the outstanding amount.

After paying back endorsement fees (AU$1,212 per month or $14,545 per annum), and based on the minimum guaranteed salary, pilots can expect to earn the following gross annual salaries for their first 3 years of employment:

Gross Salary After Deductions: AU$46,056

Can they afford to live on this salary? Do they want to be put in a position where they are forced to move to Singapore or New Zealand (at their own cost) to live on potentially much lower salaries? How does this compare to their current position?

What does this mean for Jetstar’s EBA pilots?

Obviously the Jetstar Group Contract is a direct attack on the EBA in particular, and on the concept of collective bargaining in general.

The first and most obvious effect on EBA pilots will be a loss of overtime (extra flying allowances) and work day off payments as the Company will simply transfer this flying to a cheaper group of pilots, half of whom will be on standby.

Secondly, this move will pave the way for the Company to effectively force EBA pilots off their current conditions to gain access to promotions or desired bases, if they can find a way of getting around the Fair Work Act’s “Transfer of Business” provisions.

Thirdly, the creation of a secondary, shadow contract workforce will provide the Company with a powerless group of alternative labour should we vote to engage in industrial action in order to seek fair and reasonable terms and conditions under our next EBA when it comes up for renewal in 2013. This will drastically limit our ability to negotiate for fair terms. The Company may also use the shadow workforce’s vote should they need it to get a truly substandard agreement over the line (as they did last time). More likely, they will simply deliberately bog down negotiations as the contract workforce can be used to offset most industrial action and therefore the need to actually negotiate a new EBA will evaporate.

Further down the line, these Jetstar Group pilots are required by their contract to abide by the following:

4.2 You are required to operate Company or Client aircraft as directed by the
Company. You must carry out the duties of your role as lawfully directed and at places reasonably requested by the Company.

Therefore, if Qantas pilots are unsuccessful in obtaining the job security
provisions they seek in their next EA, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that either these pilots (or another group on equally shameful conditions) will be used to undermine their employment.

What can AIPA and AIPA members do about this?
Firstly, it is important to remember that the Company has chosen its timing very carefully (and cynically after just announcing a big round of upgrades to the current pilot group with the objective of placating them and minimising individual reprisals to this attack).

Neither pilot union can organise industrial action against this move because our EBA has not expired. That is why the Company has chosen this as the time to strike against us. Individuals cannot engage in industrial action for the same reason.

AIPA will be pursuing this matter vigorously in court.

The difference between industrial action and non-industrial action is subtle, but important.

Knowing one’s EBA, Day of Operations Agreement and Roster Build Agreement is not industrial action. Acting in one’s own best interest as an individual, whilst complying with these agreements, is not industrial action. If one’s own best interests happen to be contradictory to the Company’s but within the scope of their employment agreement, and one acts as an individual to satisfy both their own interests and the obligations contained within that agreement, then that is not industrial action.

Pretty much everything else is.

Know your rights, use them. Know your obligations, respect them.

Do not feed the jaws that bite you.

[bubble.head]

That is purely disgusting. There is nothing "part-time" about the part time contract.

[The Kelpie]

Having seen said document the release by AIPA is a fair summary of the situation.

There are also some other significant deficiencies which have not been mentioned. I was intending to post the text of the contract onto this thread over the weekend however unless the reader has a good working knowledge of the award, other than the rate of pay it will serve little purpose.

The AIPA and AFAP summaries paint a much better picture.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Fonz121]

I'm sure many of you have seen this before but I thought it was suitable to repost. This was originally posted on pprune in 2002 in reference to an American airline. I guess we're a few years behind but have now caught up.





I am an Army of One (or 2, or 300, ...)

I am an army of One - A Captain in the Continental Airlines army.
For years I was a loyal soldier in Gordon's army. Now I fight my own war.
I used to feel valued and respected. Now I know I am mere fodder.
They (CAL) used to exhibit labor leadership. Now they exploit legal loopholes.
They used to enjoy my maximum. Now they will suffer my minimum.
I am an army of One.

I used to save CAL a thousand pounds of fuel per leg; finding the best FL, getting direct routing, throttling back when on-time was made, skimping during ground ops, adjusting for winds, being smart and giving the company every effort I could conjure. Now, it's "burn baby, burn".
I used to call maintenance while airborne, so the part would be ready at the gate. Now, they'll find the write-up when they look in the book.
I used to try to fix problems in the system, now I sit and watch as the miscues pile up.
I used to fly sick. Now I use my sick days, on short notice, on the worst day of the month.
I am an army of One.

I used to start the APU at the last possible moment. Now my customers enjoy extreme comfort.
I used to let the price of fuel at out-stations affect my fuel orders. I still do.
I used to cover mistakes by operations. Now I watch them unfold.
I used to hustle to ensure an on-time arrival, to make us the best. Now I do it for the rampers and agents who need the bonus money….but this too may change.
I used to call dispatch for rerouting, to head off ground delays for bad weather. Now I collect overs, number 35 in line for takeoff.

I am on a new mission - to demonstrate that misguided leadership of indifference and disrespect has a cost. It's about character, not contracts. It's about leading by taking care of your people instead of leadership by bean counters (an oxymoron). With acts of omission, not commission, I am a one-man wrecking crew - an army of One. My mission used to be to make CAL rich. Now it's to make CAL pay.

When they furlough more pilots than the rest, pilots that cost them 60 cents on the dollar - I will make them pay.
When they under-staff bases and over-work reserves to keep pilots downgraded, down-flowed, or downtrodden - I will make them pay.
When over-booked customers are denied boarding system wide, while jets are parked in the desert - I will make them pay.
When they force pilots, who have waited 12 years to become captains, to be FOs again - I will make them pay.
When they ask CAL pilots to show leadership at Express, and then deny them longevity - I will make them pay.
When they recall F/As for the summer, just to furlough them again in the fall like migrant workers - I will make them pay.
When they constantly violate the letter and spirit of our contract - a contract that's a bargain by any measure, and force us to fight lengthy grievances - I will make them pay.

My negotiating committee speaks for me, but I act on my own. I am a walking nightmare to the bean counters that made me. Are you listening? This mercenary has a lot of years left with this company; how long can you afford to keep me bitter? I'm not looking for clauses in a contract, I'm looking for a culture of commitment and caring. When I see it, I'll be a soldier for CAL again. Until then, I am an Army of One…And I'm not alone!

[Bone MAJ]

They must be finding it a little hard to find people. The chief pilot is ringing applicants to try and change their mind in regards to the new contract. Must not have to many takers from the hold file.
I wonder why....:ugh:

[ozangel]

A part time (4 days per week) railway guard (i.e the guy who gives the driver the bell-signal to open and close the train doors/assist with loading wheelchair passengers, while reading a book between stations - no formal qualifications beyond paid company provided training), earns about the same. Queensland Rail were advertising for it recently.

It's a govt job, with great super, and you're never too far from home.

I could get a better deal as a flight attendant with a budget airline - my friend currently gets a better deal working (without formal qualifications) in a call centre.

What a joke!

[The Kelpie]

No point getting chief Pilot to ring applicants as if they all feel the same way I do about him he will be identified as a puppet of the management with no credibility as a pilot!!

More to follow

The kelpie

[bonvol]

The CP showed his true colours in 89.

I doubt he has found new spots since then. After all, he is the CP for a reason and its not to be a friend of the pilots!

[breakfastburrito]

The chief pilot personally ringing applicants!!! How embarrassing is for you Mark, to have to personally grovel to applicants to get your bonus. Did you promise your masters that you could be one of the "club" and screw your fellow human beings into the dust for a few pieces of silver? How do you sleep at night? Your actions will be remembered in aviation folk lore, your betrayal will forever haunt you, with the stench of greed gone mad.

[smylie]

Ryanair type contract.God bless the irish!!!!!

[Rabbitwear]

What a croc , the company has acted appropriately with all the antagonism from AIPA. the top few in seniority that get everything they want all the time without merit are **** scared of losing there advantage when the new widebodies come. Hopefully the positions will go to new contracted pilots with loads of ex perience not just a bunch of spoilt brats. You brought this on yourselves. If you dont like it then leave, theres many other jobs that pay more.

[Swimbetweentheflags]

No No No No No No No :ugh:
I will not accept your inferior offer Half Star sheesh !!:rolleyes:
May as well raffle of the 50 positions at the local club or place the contracts
in a cornflakes box.
Maybe a recruitment drive needed in India to pick up all the fake Pilots out of jobs.

[The Green Goblin]

I don't even think the most idiotic experienced Pilot will take this **** sandwich. For those that do, scab lists are already being talked about.

If they can't get the numbers you know what will happen? Crying poor to the minister and justification for cadet schemes and 457 visas.........

They are distracting us on several fronts right now while they sneak up and butt rape us from behind.

It's all smoke and mirrors for the real agendas.

I hope these mongrels are on the one that buys the farm :mad:

[boocs]

Aaaahhhhh The Chief Pilot...:rolleyes:

I still remember (1) of his quotes in the late 90's..

"There's no money in freight!!"
"Oh ok Mark, but why are there X different Freighter flights from SYD, Y out of MEL, Z out of BNE every day?"
"Listen lad, believe me, there's no money in freight!!"

b.

[empacher48]

I can see the benefits for Jetstar on this issue - particularly if they are going to be basing their pilots in NZ.

Under NZ law a contract maybe signed to which instead of being given paid leave (annual leave, sick leave, maternity leave etc) the company may provide an extra percentage over and above your salary.

So if you are earning $40,000 a year, the company may give you an extra 15% and you don't have any leave. Of course most respectable companies will still provide the leave benefits for part time employees, but we're not talking about a respectable company.

This may be an angle they are pushing, by providing a part time contract - if you work you get paid, if you want time off, we don't have to pay you.

Good luck to those signing it! You're being well and truly shafted..

[h.o.t.a.s.]

From 'Pilots Protest as Jetstar alters new Staff terms, Steve Creedy, The Australian, 14/05/2010';

'Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway denied that new staff would be disadvantaged by the contract, and said it was comparable with existing agreements.'

If it is comparable with 'existing agreements', and you are NOT screwing people over with this scam, than why introduce it at all, Mr Westaway?

[breakfastburrito]

Mr Buchanan—No, we are saying that the first cadets that have come on are working in New Zealand and they will get paid an average salary of between NZ$64,000 and NZ$71,000 based on the current roster builds that we are seeing in our pilots in New Zealand. We said an average salary of NZ$67,000 versus the New Zealand average salary of NZ$39,000. When they are working in Australia, they are on an Australian contract and they get paid around $87,000.
Senate Inquiry into Pilot training, March 31, 2011 page 16 (http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/senate/commttee/S13742.pdf) (my bold)
Is figure net of training costs? Contempt of the Senate?

Mr Buchanan—From Senator Milne, question 3, we provided on notice an indicative salary range for a Singapore-based crew member would be in the order of $36,000 to $46,000 and an indicative salary for an Australian-based cabin crew member would be in the order of A$50,000 to A$69,000.
Senate Inquiry into Pilot training,March 31, 2011 page 37 (http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/senate/commttee/S13742.pdf) (my bold)

Once again, net of "training costs" a pilot on this contract will need to fly at least 872 hours per annum, to earn more than the most expensive indicative salary for an Australian based flight attendant.

[TineeTim]

I'm not a regular contributor here but this is just too much. It's time for individuals to take responsibility, and be held accountable, for their own actions. Yes, management are a bunch of c**ts for pushing this contract out. Yes, the CP is a c**t for doing his master's bidding. However, it is individuals who will make this offer stand or fall. Those who joined Jetstar when it began defended their actions- needed a job, any job; had to pay the mortgage; no other option; etc,etc. Years later, after the horse had bolted, we realised the error of our ways and implored these pilots to join AIPA and be part of the 'group' solution to try and stop the rot. Not this time. AIPA and AFAP should pass resolutions that anyone accepting these positions is banned from membership. We will not support you. We will not defend you. Ever. As individual pilots we should take a stand. We often lament the industrial strength seen in other occupations. What other professional group would stand for this? We must make a stand.

Anyone reading this who is considering accepting one of these contracts- If you fly with me:

1. It's not your sector. Ever. Your recency/currency is your own problem.

2. I don't care what you think about the fuel order, or any other decision I make.

3. Gear up, gear down, flaps, etc. is all you can expect to hear from me.

4. I'll be joining my mates at the bar for drinks and dinner. You aren't invited and you won't be welcome. See you tomorrow morning.

5. Any mistakes you make, and I do mean any, will be documented in the post flight report I send. You want to send one on me? Be my guest, I've made it to my final rank.

One of the great things about aviation is fellow pilots. Regardless of the whinging and banter on this website, pilots are generally good blokes and great to have a beer with. We share a private understanding and history. You are not one of us and you never will be.

[waren9]

TineeTim

Pretty harsh mate, but why let it get that far?

Well documented that JQ Capts have been standing down these casual F/A's during the preflight briefing for lack of basic knowledge.

How long will it be before a JQ Capt stands down an F/O for basic lack of knowledge?

:rolleyes:

[What The]

What a croc(1) , the company has acted appropriately with all the antagonism from AIPA. the(2) top few in seniority that get everything they want all the time without merit are **** scared of losing there(3) advantage when the new widebodies come. Hopefully the positions will go to new contracted pilots with loads of ex perience(4) not just a bunch of spoilt brats. You brought this on yourselves. If you dont(5) like it then leave, theres(6) many other jobs that pay more.


Troll alert. However would likely make a great candidate for the job. No fewer than 6 spelling\punctuation errors in such a small paragraph. Pure genius.

[Oldmate]

What TineeTim said :ok::ok::ok::ok:

Further maybe the unions could place a small ad. in newspapers and aviation publications advising of this ban, so that anyone stupid enough to sign these contracts is completely aware of what to expect.

[SIUYA]

waren9 said:

Well documented that JQ Capts have been standing down these casual F/A's during the preflight briefing for lack of basic knowledge.

Really? :eek:

If that's true, then it sounds to me like there's a(nother) VERY serious safety deficiency with Jet*. And, the responsibility for the deficiency, IF it IS actually well-documented, rests with the CEO and the Chief Pilot I'd have thought.

When will Buchanen realise that the buck stops with him? :mad:

Also, if casual Jet* CA lack of basic knowledge is, as alleged, '...well-documented', then where is it documented? If it's with the operator, then it tells me the Jet* SMS or internal QA system aren't worth 2-bob.

If it's with CASA, then none of us should be surprised I guess that nothing (so far) seems to have been done about it. :ugh:

Any half-competent CASA-assigned FOI to Jet* should have already been all over this like a rash!

Here's some clues CASA:

CAR 253 Emergency and life-saving equipment

(1) An operator shall not assign a person to act as a crew member of an aircraft, and a person shall not act as a crew member of an aircraft, unless the person is competent in the use of the emergency and lifesaving equipment carried in the aircraft.

CAO 20.11(12)

12 Crew member proficiency in the execution of emergency procedures
12.1 A crew member shall not be assigned or accept assignment to emergency duties in an aircraft engaged in a charter or a regular public transport operation unless he has undertaken and passed the proficiency test specified in Appendix IV of this section on that type of aircraft.
12.2 Subject to paragraph 12.6, the proficiency test shall be taken and passed annually.
12.3 Subject to paragraph 12.3.1, the proficiency test to be undertaken by a crew member of an aircraft is to be conducted by:
(a) CASA; or
(b) a person approved by CASA for the purpose; or
(c) the person appointed as Chief Pilot by the operator of the aircraft.

Look also at CAAP SMS-1(0) – Safety Management Systems for Regular Public Transport Operations and behavioural markers.

Jeezus...it's not bloody rocket-science. :ugh:

Maybe Ben Sandilands would like to take a look into this and ask CASA to comment on what it's regulatory surveillance (or lack of) is doing about this to ensure that Jet* is providing the appropriate training to cabin attendants to assure compliance with the requirements of CAR 253 and CAO 20.11?

And NO, before anyone suggests it, I don't agree that the preflight briefings referred to are assuring competency/proficiency.

What they ARE doing however, if the allegation is correct, and the standing down of casual CAs is occuring because of less than adequate '...basic knowledge', is highlighting the total inadequacy of the training those particular CA's have been given by the operator to assure their competency ad proficiency pursuant to the regulatory requirements quoted above.

Or perhaps they weren't provided with the specified training? :confused:

Whichever way, CASA needs to address this RFN (=Right Fcuking Now). :mad:

[missing link]

Look at the big picture.......what is happening at one star airlines is only the tip of the iceberg, look at long haul / Shanghai base for Jetstar.................We need to get through to the new starts before their interviews to give them the "Real" story

[breakfastburrito]

Client | any airline with which the company has an arrangement under which the Company supplies technical crew to that airline

Sounds like someone is going into the crewing business. Very interesting, perhaps jetstar recognises the true value of pilots, even if those same pilots can't see it.

There can be a significant difference between price & value.

[SIUYA]

missing link...

ALL this stuff needs to be put right in front of intending Jet* newstarts BEFORE they even THINK about applying. :ok:

Farkkkk, the training cost repayment obligation in year 1 alone should be enough to turn anyone who's got half a brain away from what is a shocker of a deal!

What will eventually work against Jet* management is public opinion and the perception that safety is at risk if it keeps on going the way it's going.

LCCs obviously appeal to the public because of pricing (and a lot of the so-called Jet* low pricing is all smoke-and-mirrors anyway). But safety is also a very powerful determinant, and if it goes to the wire with 'cheap' vs. 'unsafe' in Joe Public's eye, then damaging perception that Jet* is 'unsafe' may well start to prevail.

The recent debacle with the CASA show cause with Tiger should reinforce that notion.

I wonder if Buchanen's thought of that? :ugh:

Probably not. I watched him on the Senate Estimates, and he seemed so far up himself that he appeared entirely divorced from reality.

I swear his nose also grew longer throughout his appearance before the Senators. Perhaps he was being economical with the truth? :ooh:

From what I've experienced with Jet* on the three occasions that I've travelled with them (and they weren't my preference, either), it's pretty-well 'take it or leave it' in terms of customer service, with an attitude of 'if you don't like it then st1ff ****.'

I've written to QF and complained, and got the usual letters back saying 'Dear SIUYA, thank you for your comments. We value your feedback, and your comments have been passed to the appropriate manager blah blah blah', but there was never any follow-up to tell me what thewy actually DID as a consequence. I reckon it was nothing, and I wasted my time.

So, having been there, done that, and with the latest news re the new sh1t contract offered to pilots (and its inevitable consequences), and the inevitable conclusion that I can't escape from WRT you get what you pay for, and monkeys and peanuts, I will NEVER EVER EVER travel with Jet* ever again. :ok:

breakfastburrito's comment above:

There can be a significant difference between price & value.

...reinforces my opinion.

perhaps jetstar recognises the true value of pilots, even if those same pilots can't see it.

I agree...Jet* obviously DOES recognise the true value of its pilots, and that's clearly why Jet*'s the front-runner in the race to the bottom in high-capacity airline operations here in Australia. :ugh:

[joe cool69]

I hear, in the contract, you must get permission from Crewing on your day off, to leave your base for the day. WTF!!

So, someone based in SYD (on day off),wants to go the the Hunter Valley for the day, must get permission?

[SIUYA]

joe cool 69 said:

I hear, in the contract, you must get permission from Crewing on your day off, to leave your base for the day.

Does Fair Work Australia really support this sort of cr@p? :eek:

"Days leave" is normally taken to mean leave of absence from duty on any day when an employee would normally be rostered for duty, and normally includes leave of absence from any rostered shift commencing on that day.

If intending Jet* newstarts are happy with the limitation that JC69 alludes to (if it's true), then my comment about monkeys and peanuts seems to be appropriate.

[Stiff Under Carriage]

I heard the same thing jc69 said just today. Was in contract apparently emailed to hold file applicants. So far he hasn't received the 'phone' call yet, but good news is he won't be accepting it when it comes.

This crap from Jet* has to stop. It has gone beyond disgusting.

[Nose wheel first]

Anyone who accepts this contract needs to have their head examined!

The company I work for has a few guys and girls who are more than suitably qualified to go to Porn Star but everyone I have spoken to, without exception, has said they won't even apply, or have withdrawn their application.

I'd rather stay in GA and fly a King Air all my life (for less than jet pay)than fly a jet for this bunch of penny pinching, halfwitted, T's & C's destroying, bonus chasing, staff screwing, sneaky, congenital imbeciles!!

[Roger Greendeck]

Question for those union members who ave been offered this contract, what is your union doing about it? I am yet to have anyone explain to me how this contract can be legal (regardless of whether some poor schmuck signs it). If it is part time how an they require full time availability? And why are the pilot's annual hours not divided up along the same percentage as the 'part time arrangement'? Conversely, if the company requires full time commitment ie standby availability and no means to fly hours outside Jetstar to earn their living why are they not meeting the award minimums for pay and leave.

This is quite apart from the legal and ethical issues of being able to just set up another company name and abandon their commitments. Not sure about every union that represents pilots but I know AIPA is a member of the ACTU and thus funds flow through to it and the ALP. IN '07 the ACTU and ALP made such a fuss about Workchoices and how it was screwing individuals. Where is their outrage now? And the ALP is in Govt, what are they doing about it?

[Flava Saver]

RECRUITMENT BAN!

AIPA & AFAP need to get an IFALPA Recruitment Ban in place. This needs to happen NOW. It needs to be made very public. If you sign up on these conditions, you are on your own. Period. Email & call your union to demand this. This is what you pay fee's for. Stop sitting on the sidelines hoping your buddies will do the leg work for you.

[whatever6719]

The thought came to me a little while ago while I was thinking how this could possibly have happened. Does anyone else think there is some kind of psychological warfare going on here??
Here we suddenly have a situation that no one could have dreamed of only a couple of years ago when everyone was talking about the looming pilot shortage. The company have seized an opportunity to debase the profession with this excrement of a contract that no one saw coming.
They are out to squash this profession and they are doing it by stealth.
Offering this rubbish in the hope that some will accept will, in their eyes, create a new low from which to work from.
It may be a far fetched idea, but to me, it kind of makes perverse sense.
They stand to gain more if they devalue pilots in the way they just have. Not only in pilots own perception, but that of the general public.

[rooboy762002]

And just to clarify, a day off is considered to be "twenty four consecutive hours free of all duty".
So knowing these clowns, finish day 1 at 1200. Start day 2 at 1201 means you have just had a day off!
:ugh:

[Stiff Under Carriage]

Completely agree with you Flava. This should be put into place ASAP. I think Tinee hinted to the same thing, he also said some good things, those who sign up should not be permitted to be union member and never be protected by them. It is a full on disgrace what this company is doing. Jet* should be dragged in and made to explain themselves.

Can anyone within this airline comment on what's happening internally? I have a mate in JQ and he has told me it was going to head this way 18 months ago, didn't believe it then, but clearly I should have. He has said its a dead end airline.

WTF is happening here!

[The Green Goblin]

All my friends are saying the same thing. If you want a command as an EBA pilot, you will have t take a contract and resign from the EBA.

Dead end Airline? You bet.

If you think it's a means to an end to get into Emirates, Cathay etc, check out the a Cathay is going!

The only money in aviation will be in the trough with management.

[SOPS]

At the risk of being banned..I will say it again..it started at the year that cannot be talked about..and is being dripped fed from the top..those at the top do not care about those at the bottom, as long as they stay on thier large pay packets and bonusus, they showed their true colours once and they are showing them again.

But for those thinking this new contract is a great deal..can I put something in perspective...in 1988 as a 3 year FO with Ansett, covered by an AFAP award , I was earning $52000, I just checked my payslip, $52000 over 20 years ago, all I say is please think about waht you are doing if you take this contract.

For me..I dont care..I am on the end run of this industry and have seen some of the best (and worst) times, but now its getting out of control, where will it stop? Jetstar says give us $100000 and you can "work" for us for a year? Give us $500000 and you can stay for life?.,..This whole thing is totally totally out of control, it makes me cry that an industry in Australia that I loved so much has been reduced to this.....

I wish you all well it what you do, and hope for you own sakes you make the best descion.....

SOPS

[Roller Merlin]

Looks like the last week's rejections from applicants may be having an effect. Clearly JQ management is likely getting feedback from the field that these contracts are draconian and the poor part-time wages are not worth leaving any reasonable job! So today....

Chief Pilot sends out an email (on Saturday....never done before), assuring everyone that pilots on these contract will fly as much as anyone else, despite the contract saying otherwise (and in doing so directly contravening the Pilot Award's part-time requirements)....and

A roadshow appears planned to sell this sh1te to company pilots who are clearly advising their buddies how bad these contracts really are. Wouldn't it be interesting if no one went?

The word is out there....spread the word.

[duke of duchess]

How funny,

wasnt Impulse AKA jetstar the first to start the race to the bottom?

Now it seems the guys that started the race are upset because they no longer want to play!

You guys started the game.

Before you all shoot me down, I dont agree with it!

However I never accepted a job with them as I have never agreed with paying for company training or there treatment of employees so good luck but its most of the guys and girls in the pointy ends of all those J* aircraft to blame!

[xjt]

what tiny tim said :D:D:D:D:D

[neville_nobody]

If they can't get the numbers you know what will happen? Crying poor to the minister and justification for cadet schemes and 457 visas

I fear this may be the idea. They will get permission to base pilots in Asia or NZ and fly them around Australia domestically on some sort of Visa. It might work to as they will be able to say to the government that they actually don't need to give Australian residency only permission to work here.

If your end goal was Ethiad/Emirates/Qatar this deal will accelerate your career quicksmart. Afterall that is all that happens in Europe with LCC. It's really their version of GA.

[Neptunus Rex]

The "Year that must not be mentioned" was not the start of all this. It was Ronald Reagan firing over 11,000 Air Traffic Controllers in 1981. That was when beancounters and managers all over the Western world creamed their jeans over this fundamental change in industrial relations.

[KRUSTY 34]

It's been mentioned before, but maybe the last line of defense will be the Check and Trainers. No Check and Trainers, no Trainees, no ****e contract.

Some years ago a senior Check Captain came to me during EBA discussions. He was miffed that the company had rejected their proposal for the C&T additions to salary. I told him that we had put our case and the company was playing hard ball. The only avenue open to them at that time was to collectively withdraw their labour and go back to line flying. He was agast! "If we do that, they'll find someone else to do it!" These guys folded. They bitched and whinged with the best of them, but in the end they were more concerned with retaining their positions of power than taking a stand.

Oh well, perhaps the last line of defense won't rest with the likes of them. unless they suddenly grow a set!

[Roger Greendeck]

Lester, I think they will have trouble filling these slots. The only reason to take a new job is to improve your situation, either pay or conditions, or a combination of both. I have said in the past the reason pilots have signed up to LCC conditions is because it is an improvement on what they get at the moment rather than because they think it's a good deal. For those who meet the minimum application requirements this contract is not an improvement over the terms and conditions you are on now or could get with any other employer.

This is different to cadets. They dont have the right mix of hours,if any at all, to compete for jobs that pay well on decent equipment.

I am sure there are still plenty of people with applications in either hoping for this to fail and get an offer on the EBA or just to have the satisfaction of saying no to the company when they ask. But the chances that the number of applicant reflects the number of people who will accept an offer is very low indeed.

[framer]

A roadshow appears planned to sell this sh1te to company pilots who are clearly advising their buddies how bad these contracts really are. Wouldn't it be interesting if no one went?



Or, what if quite a few current airline pilots, who understand the hidden fish hooks in the contract beyond just rubbish money (ie 24hrs off is considered a day off) went along to these road shows and asked 'pertinant' questions of the people selling the contract? Would that be educational for the GA pilots who have turned up at the show? It might take some of the shine off the presentation if they are having to field questions about the negative aspects.
If VB and QF pilots turned up or JQ pilots on the normal EBA , and made verbal comparisons with their contracts it would make it very difficult for those presenting.
I don't know if there will be a road show, but if there is one oin my town I will be going along to do just that even though I don't work for J*.
I was actually contemplating applying just so I could say no when they rang me up for an interview.

[Dark Knight]

Study history and it shows this decay started long before 1981 and Reagan: Braniff, Continental, Eastern, TWA, United, Ansett, Australian, et al.

Lorenzo, Ichon, Tilton, Strong, Abeles, Hawke supported by the weak, the lame, the maimed, soldiers of fortune and the thieves prepared to slink around in the darkness of night.

Management only achieved success due to the small fraction lacking the intestinal fortitude to stand with, steal from, their fellow pilots to the bitter end resulting in the `wonderful’ salaries, working conditions and job protection `enjoyed’ by pilots today.


YouTube - Lessons




The question is there sufficient unity to stand against management of today?


Is there sufficient resolve to deal with those who are again prepared to steal from their fellow pilots further destroying honourable careers?

[breakfastburrito]

Neptunus, your implication is exactly on the money, here's a quote from another forum which encapsulates the long term goal of the elites.

I agree - Merk is a typical German Euro conservative - he deliberately fails to see the problem is the shadow bank sector, not entitlements which he wishes to cut which will crash demand into the Regolith.

Of course when you realise that the Euros construction was designed to crush sovereignty using private debt has a sledgehammer his views make sense.

The central banks goal since the wage inflation of the seventies which hurt their clients is to create a global wage deflation environment which until recently was fueled by private debt creation.

Now that this credit engine is dying the Central banks do not know how to engineer a effecient solution to protect their clients equity funds whose value is dependent on wage austerity.

To me the solution lies in the destruction of credit completly by global wage inflation.
Zerohedge comment by The Dork Of Cork 23/4/2011 (http://www.zerohedge.com/article/interview-ted-butler-end-silver-price-manipulation#comment-1199547)


Dark Knight - agree that history provides all the evidence that we need to work out what is going on. The top 0.1% of the population have unleashed a class war against the other 99.1%. There was no declaration, just a single minded stealth campaign to steal the working lives, in order to make the already wealthy even more wealthy.

If you want to know how this is to play out, it is essential to watch Chris Martensons Crash Course (http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse) & read "The Creature From Jekyll Island" by G.Edward Griffin. This book is a history lesson par excellence. Educate yourselves about the game being played.

My scenario's about Qantas destroying itself & in order to justify its destruction & its Pan-Asian strategy have their genesis in these sources. If I can work it out, so can you. Prepare yourselves, don't bury your head in the sand.

[Hugh Gorgen]

To the young pilots of Australia, looking for an "Australian" career in aviation, allow me to summarise:

DO NOT JOIN JETSTAR UNDER CONTRACT!!!!!


To do so will spark the beginning and the end or your career. This will provide
the avenue for airline management to destroy any future career prospect for yourself and the rest of us.

For the ignorant and niave, allow me to say this again:

DO NOT JOIN JETSTAR UNDER CONTRACT!!!!!

[xjt]

recruitment ban...........

[Dark Knight]

Dark Knight - agree that history provides all the evidence that we need to work out what is going on. The top 0.1% of the population have unleashed a class war against the other 99.1%. There was no declaration, just a single minded stealth campaign to steal the working lives, in order to make the already wealthy even more wealthy. And Carbon TAX, Cap & Trade, Carbon Trading, call it what you will, is the greatest wealth redistribution scam created by mankind yet.

Just consider what it will do to the aviation industry in a very short period of time; you will not need a recruitment ban as there will be no jobs, period.

However, it is not just the wealthy supporting this but the Greens and Labor read Socialist Governments which does not quite fit the pattern of the top 1% theory.

YouTube - Julia Gillard no carbon tax promise

However, I repeat my questions:

The question is there sufficient unity to stand against management of today?


Is there sufficient resolve to deal with those who are again prepared to steal from their fellow pilots further destroying honourable careers?

[Jet Man]

I assume those hourly rates at the start are for new F/Os. You are always going to get younger inexperienced pilots applying for these sort of contracts.

My question is where do they get the Captains and Training/Checking staff from? Surely no one with this sort of experience would have anything to do with this operation. Are current senior Jetstar pilots being forced to train/fly with these 'part-timers'?

[xjt]

They do it willingly..... I have even had training Captains try to justify them .... There's your answer

[Mr. Hat]

Hmmm, word is momentum is gathering amongst the pilot group......

Unprecedented levels of hostility.

Excellent culture.

[Stationair8]

The brave young pilots will still be happily applying to Jet*, because they be flying the big jet and living the dream and then they will move on to one of those big companies in the middle east, or go back to uni and do IT or get a job doing nightfill at Woolworths!!

[OneDotLow]

Anyone care to post the email chain?

We would all love to see it... Including the media and CASA...

[Mr. Hat]

Pop corn and deck chair waiting.

Its getting nasty. Question is who will get nastier? The JQ or QF lads?

Excellent culture.

[schlong hauler]

If the check pilots grew some balls it would all implode. Refuse to do the checks. Why are QF Checks still training and checking Jetconnect pilots. Talk about ****ting in your own nest. Spineless.

[27/09]

i've heard a strong rumour that some aviation training professionals were in canberra recently discussing with the senate that ' "quality" training is more important that total flight hours'



Did they also tell the Senate that quality terms and conditions are also very important to maintain safety standards, otherwise that "quality" traning they go on about is a waste of time?

[abc1]

In a country run under the ''Labour'' mantra, and by approved labour laws.
Australia puts the Middle east to shame.
Jobs for australians goes the argument.

[waren9]

Schlong Hauler is right.

Checkies are too busy worrying about the 12% training pay, and not pissing off the blue shirt CP mates club that got them out of the DRW forced basing which they'd be threatened with if they don't toe the company line.

Newsflash

Once these B scalers are self sustaining, you really think you'll be checking much longer?

Todays payslip or tomorrows career?

[psycho joe]

Most Checkies that I know are desperately trying to top up their super to pre GFC / ex wife levels in the few years that they have left in the industry. They can't afford to lose their job any more than anyone else.

Do you people honestly believe that a Check or Training CPT wont get a DCM for refusing to work with these people? :ugh:

[waren9]

No one said anything about refusal. Just a polite resignation from c&t duties. Its not compulsory you know!

[Mr. Hat]

I worked in a company that had that happen once. It yielded an immediate payrise (double the c/t allowance).

[Roller Merlin]

Company email is on fire atm... currently 78 replies-to-all from one initial email to CEO and CP protesting these crap "contracts" and the safety implications of a toxic culture that is rapidly developing. CASA and the Senators will clearly get to see these, and the list is growing by the minute.

If anyone is silly enough to sign such awful deals, it appears they could be facing a snake pit.

[xjt]

I say bring it on.... Let them face the wrath....All cadets and new hires sighing these contracts must be banned from joining the union.... Why protect the ones that are bringing the industry to this
Level .....

[OneDotLow]

Anyone care to share the emails??

Nothing better than the public domain for scrutiny! Or at the very least can someone please ensure that they get passed to the senators, ben sandilands, steve creedy, smh, the age, courier mail....

Suffer in your jocks Bruce Loosecannon!

[dodgybrothers]

aipa and afap need to come out publicly and say, 'recruitment ban'. May make the young blokes consider not accepting these terms.

[Cactusjack]

It will all change dramatically when the first 320 piloted by a teenage F/O spears in...
Perhaps the Nupties who are CEOing Australian operators (and the good Senators) should Google Al Haynes and Chesley Sullenberger. That is where they may see the benefit of retaining skilled and experienced Pilots. Just these 2 Pilots alone had almost 50 000 hours flying experience between them and saved the lives of close to 300 punters....say no more.

[xjt]

no if's and's or but's............RECRUITMENT BAN

[Roxy_Chick_1989]

Does this organisation have a department which dedicates it's 9-5 to finding detours to IR legislation?

[framer]

Good stuff. 110 emails is great. How many pilots are there at J* though? would be good to see over half send an email.

[Sunfish]

Can somebody please post the contract in full and most especially the regulations as well?

I really want to look for a couple of clauses I suspect might be there (I won't tell you what they are just now).

This contract has all the hallmarks of a certain legal firm, and if it is crafted in the detail I suspect, then there are a number of steps that can be taken that I won't explain here now.

[T80]

From post #1
Gross Salary After Deductions: AU$46,056


And wait for it......... Drum roll please :p

With Swannys latest tax brackets that will place you in the magical
37k - 80k income and thus you will be slugged %30 on each dollar :yuk:

Makes this more so appealing. NOT :eek:

Anyway have the number for Truck Master School ?

What next ? Geez wont be long before they dream up the idea to get unpaid PPL's in the right hand seat and ask for donations for flying they get.

[Stiff Under Carriage]

110 emails is probably about 9% of the pilot body. I don't work for Jet*, thank goodness, clearly now I never will, but from a mates numbers of the group this is about right. Keep it going boys.

[Blue-Footed Boobie]

Jetstar's abuse and contempt for it's current & future officers of the company are in stark contrast to the touchy feely HR interview questions hurled at future pilots

"tell me when you experienced conflict in the flightdeck?" ...um ah... :confused:
"how dd you manage this conflict?" ..um ah.. :cool:
"give me 3 examples of when you used teamwork to achieve a goal?" ..um ah.. :uhoh:

Sit back and watch Jetstar management instigate conflict, conquer and divide, whilst the spineless senior management pilots who should set an example look to their own backyards.

Onya Jetstar
Blue Foot

[xjt]

140 emails and one coming through every 8 minutes.......so if this trend continues thats 320 pissed off j* pilots.........50%of the workforce......

Are you listening Mark, Bruce and Alan......

[Ultergra]

Time for more Jetstar pilots to join the union.

People will accept the offers, hell 10 years ago Qantas pilots were saying this about Jetstar!! And its happening again. And this isnt the last company they will try and start up. They got away with Jetstar, they will probably get away with this one, and then they will undercut again.

[Sunfish]

Contracts read. I'm not a lawyer, but I was once asked to foist something similar on my workforce, which didn't happen in the end.

1. Join a union.

2. Get a good labor lawyer to read the stuff. You do have some rights, at least in Australia, even if the company tells you that you haven't.

My Two bobs worth is that it is so one sided it's most likely unenforceable, furthermore, the lack of any mediation clauses is likely to make an Australian judge very angry if a pilot brought the contract before him.

My advice to Jetstar would be "If you want to make your contract stronger, water it down."

[Night Hawk]

The emails is now above 156 in numbers now!!:ok:

The number is rising by the minute!!! Up 8 emails while I've written this!!!

So very pleasing to see a lot of left hand seat drivers replying...and not short replies either(at least A4 in length).FO's replying in good numbers too.
All CC'd to J* CP, Aus J* CEO and AJ too.

I do note that a few have left BB out!!! No one wants to talk to him it seems.

Lots of pissed off guys and gals...

[Roller Merlin]

By 11 am this morning there are 170 email replies, many now including Alan Joyce in addition to CEO and CP. This has all been spontaneously from individuals - no orchestration here.

[Fruet Mich]

Quite simple really guys and girls, there's nothing quite like a mass illness on one day by the pilot groupodor management to sit up and take note! Now that's a way to express concern whilst remaining within the contract!

News headline... Mysterious illness hits pilots in Jetstar, grounds over 100 flights...

Terrible

[Eastmoore]

31% and counting

[breakfastburrito]

China aviation authority denies pilot strike reports
(Xinhua)
Updated: 2008-04-04 18:17

BEIJING - China's aviation watchdog denied media reports on Friday of a recent alleged pilot strike, insisting a severe weather condition was to blame for the flight returns on Monday.

Recent media reports said pilots flying 14 to 18 China Eastern Airlines routes refused to land and returned to their departure points during regional flights in the southwestern Yunnan Province on Monday.


A woman guards the door during a China Eastern airline's shareholders meeting in Shanghai January 8, 2008. China's aviation watchdog denied media reports on Friday of a recent alleged pilot strike. [Agencies]
The number of affected passengers was not immediately available.

Sources within both the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) and the airline's Yunnan branch told Xinhua it was the severe windy weather that had forced the flights to return, rejecting media reports of a pilot strike.

CAAC also denied reports of an emergency meeting held by the administration that said it mulled life bans for pilots who were responsible for organizing the alleged strike.

Pilots refused to disclose any details of the incidents.

Beijing-based Caijing magazine quoted a CAAC publicity official on Friday, saying the administration would not punish pilots and continued efforts were being made to ensure future flights went smoothly to protect passenger interests.

This week, media reports said a pilot strike loomed large in China as 40 Shanghai Airlines pilots had called in sick at the same time on March 14. At the newly-founded Wuhan East Star Airline, 11 pilots asked for sick leave on March 28.

Sources within the involved airlines were not available to confirm the incidents.

The Beijing-based Caijing reported the alleged strike action aimed to call for better treatment of pilots and urged the airlines to improve management, quoting a source close to the reported case.

Zhu Wenchuan, an expert on aviation security, said Chinese pilots had experienced increasing workloads of late, but stagnant wage rises. In addition, the management system of some domestic airlines limited pilots' personal development.

China has 12,000 pilots. Official figures predicted the total number of flights would increase 80 percent by 2010, meaning 6,500 more pilots were required.

It generally costs a Chinese airline about 700,000 yuan (US$100,000) to 1.8 million yuan to train a pilot.

China aviation authority denies pilot strike reports (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2008-04/04/content_6592494.htm)

[Mr. Hat]

I've been kept in the loop by a contact within Jetstar and have seen many of the emails. Many of the names are people I know. These were people I met and worked with in my GA travels. These are people that you entrusted your life with when all the chips were down. These were people that held their hand out when nothing was going your way. These are people that would speak to complete strangers on the phone and volonteer their time and effort to help a new person to the industry. These are people that gave everything they had to being the best possible employee and professional pilot.

What an incredible shame that their current employer cannot see their value the way I and my previous employers can.

To those who have written I can just say that I feel incredibly proud to have been associated with you.

[mcgrath50]

To those who have written I can just say that I feel incredibly proud to have been associated with you.

Couldn't agree more, it's great to see a spontaneous show of solidarity, the ball is now firmly in managements court, it will be interesting to see what they do with it.

[mppgf]

If the ball is in their court , they will probably try to steal it.:sad:

[apache]

the ball is now firmly in managements court

if this is true, then I think that they will have a look at said ball, and see if they can get a cheaper ball in Asia somewhere.
the original ball will be forced to accept that if it wants to continue to play in managements court then it must do more playing for less money, and no complaining.
if the original ball teams up with the newer,cheaper imported ball and forms a union, then management will no longer play with either ball, but instead, source a third, and even cheaper, probably younger ball.

[OneDotLow]

We've been preaching it for years, but UNITY is the only way forward! We only have a limited time to apply the appropriate pressure to management in this country in order to secure our futures.

Congratulations to all of the JQ pilots who have said their piece over the last few days!

If you are even considering putting fingers to keyboard, do it and do it now!!

Up to over 185 emails now apparently...

[xjt]

200 and counting

[waren9]

Congratulations to all of the JQ pilots who have said their piece over the last few days!

If you are even considering putting fingers to keyboard, do it and do it now!!


And that includes the demographic whos are names are remarkably conspicuous by their absence.:eek:

Grow some balls. You know who you are :suspect:

[Roller Merlin]

I hear that Management have already tried to put Check Captains on individual contracts....CASA apparently won't allow it as CCs must be full time employees of the AOC Holder. Undoubtedly this would have enforced the training and checking of contract pilots. CCs should be carefully reconsidering their role in all this.

But Training captains are voluntary positions and the personal hit from refusal to train is less.... No Training Captains willing to train contractors= No Contract Pilots.

Our greatest hope (and biggest risk) now lies with the Training and Checking Department.

[dodgybrothers]

yeah, with all those blue shirts with previous form. Dont hold your breath.

[breakfastburrito]

Apache, there is no large untapped pool of "Asian Pilots", thats the ironic twist in this whole mad scheme. Usually wage arbitrage is between at least two existing markets. In this case, they are actually attempting to create a pool of pilots that doesn't actually exist in the target market (Singapore) to effect the arbitrage. Off-shoring to in-shore.

Judging by the number of emails I receive from multiple crewing companies for Asian assignments, there appears to be quite a shortage in Asia. Quite frankly, if you are going to be forced to work in Asia, would this be the mob of choice?

The Australian basing/lifestyle was always touted by management as the reason they could discount wages compared to other operators in less desirable locales. They appear to be attempting to kicking the leg out from under their own stool with Asian basings, hence the need for captive debt slaves.

[ernestkgann]

My feeling is that the management of aviation companies in Oz believe that there is an untapped source of pilots in the Middle East who can be used to crew airlines. It has some validity but only for Oz based positions. There will be very few willing to leave one overseas locale for another, especially as we know that the wage offer will be marginal and the company is inherently anti-employee. The high dollar and the GFC's hit to the markets will be other factors that keep experienced, quality pilots working for their current overseas master.
The company's only hope then is that Oz FOs will leave home for upgrades and bigger aeroplanes. If they do that however, they will be there till retirement because there will be very little left at home to go to.

[Normasars]

ernestkgann said

"The companies only hope then is that Oz FOs will leave home for upgrades and bigger aeroplanes"

Well given the recent form of this lot, the company probably won't have to "hope" too much then. They will queue up in droves; just watch.

[Low and Fast]

I have only touched briefly on this thread but could someone post one of these so called emails!

Would really like to see the full picture about what really is happening.

Thanks L&F

[havick]

Please forgive my ignorance, but is Jetstar forcing pilots that are currently employed under the EBA onto these 'new' contracts or is this all in relation to new hires?

[mcgrath50]

Havick at this stage new hires.

The original EBA which is valid to 2013 contains a provision which was controversial at the time it was entered into allowing Jetstar to hire outside of the terms of the agreement.

I thought it was illegal to hire people outside the EBA (in the same company), why would J* Pilots agree to this?!

[Low and Fast]

P.S Even a post of the so called contract too if possible, not that I don't believe

anyone's posts here but some substance would enlighten I and other pilots not

employed by J* to some of the facts of what is happening.

Thanks again L & F

[Xcel]

I have seen the contract and assure you this is legit and bs...

Half of the allowances have a clause that "may" apply...

Luckily so far everyone I've talked to has declined the offer!! With one today saying they would accept a position but only on the eba...

I have also been told that the offer required responses by today, they were only given 4 days to peruse the details before making a decision... Maybe trying to rush through a backup for the cadets if the senate enquiry goes against their master plan.

[ThePaperBoy]

Some pilots are 'negotiating' with Jetstar, for example asking for a min of 800 hours a year and they'll sign.

Not everyone will reject it.

[The Kelpie]

Some pilots are 'negotiating' with Jetstar, for example asking for a min of 800 hours a year and they'll sign.

If true it is obvious that these guys are only interested the hours to dollars equation rather than the myriad of trap doors carefully designed to screw them over.

Think carefully guys there is much more to this document than meets the eye. Try and attend the AFAP meeting tomorrow in MEL or Wednesday in Sydney, I am sure they will not mind - you may even learn something!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Stiff Under Carriage]

Hours to pay is small part of the problem. T&C's people. Sure let's agree to work like dogs and do 1000 hrs a year and earn $120k. Mind you, you will have no life, you won't be able to leave your base because crewing just might need you. Some life you'll have. it's not just about the bottom line.

[Beer Baron]

This was in the 'Plane Talking' article;

The original EBA which is valid to 2013 contains a provision which was controversial at the time it was entered into allowing Jetstar to hire outside of the terms of the agreement.

Is this true? And if so, what on earth were the negotiators thinking?? If pilots knew about this, what were they thinking voting it up? It seems utterly crazy to give the company such an option.

Surely there is more to it that I am missing.

[The Kelpie]

The original EBA which is valid to 2013 contains a provision which was controversial at the time it was entered into allowing Jetstar to hire outside of the terms of the agreement.

Please can someone advise which clause in the EBA this relates to.

Thanks

The Kelpie

[aulglarse]

FROM: AFAP Jetstar Pilot Council
DATE: 16 May 2011
All Jetstar Pilots,
The AFAP Jetstar Pilot meetings have been brought forward by 30 minutes because since putting out our Briefings over the weekend, the company has brought forward its meetings from 1200 hours (as it initially advised) to 1100 hours.
The first Jetstar pilot meetings are as follows:
Melbourne
10:30-11:30am NOW 10:00am – 11:00am
Tuesday 17 May 2011
Tullamarine Room
Holiday Inn (at the Airport)
Sydney
10:30-11:30am NOW 10:00am – 11:00am
Wednesday 18 May 2011
St George Rowing Club
1 Levey St, Wolli Creek
Meetings at other ports to be advised shortly
All Jetstar pilots need to take notice, get informed, and defend their Jetstar EBA.
We are holding pilot meetings to advise you of the details of the insidious Jetstar Group Contracts and what we are doing to resist them.
We urge all Jetstar pilots to attend regardless of whether you are a union member or not. This is a threat to everyone’s future career and it will take a committed and unified pilot group to win this fight.
PLEASE DISTRIBUTE THIS NEWSLETTER TO ALL YOUR COLLEAGUES AND ENCOURAGE EVERY JETSTAR PILOT TO ATTEND
If you have any questions regarding this matter please contact Simon Lutton at the AFAP on [email protected], ph (03) 9928 5737 or mobile 0419 482 582.
Regards
AFAP Jetstar Council

[ratpoison]

aulglarse.
Can you please edit and remove the names at the bottom after regards.
Not kosher mate:ok:

[havick]

All I can say is good luck to you guys and girls. Reading threads like this is very sad indeed.

I guess it's the old supply vs demand. Unfortunately for you guys there will be no shortage of shortsighted fools who will sign onto this contract, and Jetstar knows this.

On the flipside, the helicopter world that used to be the poor cousin to airlines is showing a marked increase in payscales for multi-engine IFR drivers (once again supply vs demand). Fortunately it is the clients that dictate the minimum experience and not the operators, or I'm sure we would see the same thing.

['holic]

I've tried to think about this as a Qantas senior manager would, I really have. I've sat down, had a few good hard pulls on a crack pipe, and contemplated the benefits of this strategy. It still doesn't make any sense.

Ok, you want to pay all your workers a pittance and give them the conditions and rights of an 18th century coal miner. I get that bit. And words like "engagement", "morale" and "loyalty" are meaningless because they don't appear in a balance sheet.

But ....

Up until this point in time, you've had 2 pilot groups which have successfully been divided. One of those groups is cheap by world standards, mostly non-unionised and compliant, something approaching an industrial nirvana. Best of all, there's animosity between the 2 groups and you can now play them off against each other at will.

Now you're actions have caused the 2 groups to start talking and collaborating, and union ranks are swelling. Why destroy the perfect lever you've created to crush the more expensive group of pilots? Why not wait until that act of bastardry was completed?

This is at a time when you are spruiking major expansion plans in Asia, with a significant amount of new hardware arriving over the next few years. Wouldn't you at least keep one group of employees on side until they'd helped you introduce the new type, get the network established etc etc and then slap them with your Shake Hands with the Devil contract?

Also, recently your work practices have come under close scrutiny in the Senate Inquiry and FWA. Now is probably not the best time to tighten the thumb screws and draw further attention to your draconian contracts. In fact, considering the senate inquiry hasn't tabled its final report, it's just sheer contempt.

To me, this strategy has the smell of desperation. Why is there such a need the push the edge of the industrial envelope so hard and so fast? Could it be that the current business strategies aren't performing as expected?

[Wunwing]

holic at al.

I've also tried this approach and come up puzzled by the management thought process.The Qantas group in the past has benefitted greatly by holding on to their skilled workforce using an actual or implied seniority and good T&Cs.They now seem hell bent on destroying both those levers.

Years ago I was at a meeting for LH Tech crew a week after we got a new CEO.It was at a time when experienced B747 drivers were pretty thin on the ground and a well known Asian carrier regularly poached them as they turned 55 and could pull out their super. A bit into his opening,Mr CEO made the statement that went roughly like, anybody who was in a company for more than 5 years was not the kind of person the Company needed. The CP who was sitting next to him went ashen and at the end of the presentation it was explained by Mr CP that the CEO didn't mean pilots to be included in his comments. However he had lost us forever at that stage because he obviously didn't understand the business he was in.

A few years later and I was presenting at the Productivity Commission hearing on Deregulation in Aviation. The subject of LAMEs came up and I ended up with a raging arguement with the same CEO. I was attempting to argue that in our industry experience is everything. My example was of the old procedure where a defect was called into say SYD Engineering by the FE. Engineering would call back with a few quick requests for observations and tests. The aircraft would be met by a LAME and an apprentice assigned to the defect prior to arrival. Between them they had everything needed and the aircraft normally left on time. Under the new system they were met by a much cheaper AME or 3 who knew nothing about the defect and the aircraft left an hour late with the defect as a hold item.Which is the cheaper staff member? According to current wisdom its the low paid AME. It appears with this debacle, this thinking is now flowing on to the Pilot group.

I can see no future for any airline who sees this way of management as valid.

Wunwing

[Squeaks]

Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere, but it seemed pertinent to this discussion:

The latest Jetstar pilot contract includes the following (according to associates who have been offered positions):

Australian based pay rate $101/hr
Part time employment only
A base rate of employment of 600 hours per year [The legal limit that pilots can fly is 900 hours, therefore max earnings are $90,900pa]
1 hours work is engine start to engine stop, not start/finish work, flight planning etc not included/unpaid
No wage increases, including CPI except at the absolute discretion of Jetstar
Pilots are required to provide their own training
Total costs approach $150,000
A certificate is proof of training
Five days sick leave per year
In 30 days
9 days off at home with family
a day off is deemed to be a '24 hour period free of duty', not a calendar day
12 days on standby
Standby provisions are available on call to start work asap [1 hour from call]
Days on standby are unpaid unless called to work
Terms and conditions of employment can be changed at the 'absolute discretion' of Jetstar
Pilots can be transferred to any base in the current or future network with pay set at local rates after transfer
Currently
Australia [$101/hr]
New Zealand
Singapore
Planned (I Still Call Australia Home.....)
Malaysia
China
Saigon
??????

[Mstr Caution]

Curious.....Has J* responded to any of the 200 or so pilot emails?

If so, what was the response.

Has Xenophon been CC'd the emails? I'm sure he'd be interested to hear of any bullying tactics going on.

MC

[Eastmoore]

300 Emails and yes, more spin.

Not sure about Xman

[astroboy55]

Are QF drivers invited? Although not members would be good as a show of support, and im sure there are many QF guys who would like to hear more.....

[Mr. Hat]

It seems there are two different strategies in the Oz scene.
Qf group
Va group

The qf group is openly adversarial with all employees. They use aggression and bullyboy tactics. The Va group have the complete opposite however they are not push overs by any stretch of the imagination on ir matters (see 777 eba). The first group has disengaged nearly every staff member. The second has nearly all staff on side bar those involved in the eba process.

The question is which approach wins? It's a question raised in the AFR article from 14-15 May titled:"Hardball tactics deliver rough ride". Southwest gets a mention as an example. On the oz front its hard to tell who wins as the companies are different. It's not a case of looking at profits as an example.


The only way I could compare apples with apples is imagining owning a small business. I'd prefer to keep my staff on side for 5 years and then drive a hard deal at eba than smash them all day every day.

Just my thoughts.

I suspect the accountants/otp dept are going to be seeing some ugly figures if
this keeps up!

[Flava Saver]

Xman has been contacted by many JQ drivers in the last 36 hrs. He's on to it. :D

[-438]

a day off is deemed to be a '24 hour period free of duty', not a calendar day

So if one were to finish at 12 noon one day and sign on at 12.30pm the following day, they will have used up one of their 9 days off for the month??

[PoppaJo]

I heard a few JQ drivers have gone to Tiger, and good on them too, more money with no bull****, more relaxed lifestyle at least. Tiger apparently recruiting for up to 6 new A320's this year, so I would put your application in right now to be considered as the holding pool is enormous.

[living the good life]

Glad I have a good job,

Maybe Taxi companies should start advertising for drivers at flying schools their conditions are better than anything the airlines are offering now days!

If its all about the uniform maybe a bus company.:ugh:

[Xcel]

6 weeks at a nominated rate for the leave.
Annual - $390
compassionate, sick and other leave was calculated differently and a lower rate..

It is also noteworthy that all allowances included that the "may be provided" seemed the general theme of the document...

We all know you would be a moron to accept, we also know that many morons have been provided with letters...

[Sunfish]

Wunwing sums up the stupidity. I can explain the thinking.

I've also tried this approach and come up puzzled by the management thought process.The Qantas group in the past has benefitted greatly by holding on to their skilled workforce using an actual or implied seniority and good T&Cs.They now seem hell bent on destroying both those levers.

Years ago I was at a meeting for LH Tech crew a week after we got a new CEO.It was at a time when experienced B747 drivers were pretty thin on the ground and a well known Asian carrier regularly poached them as they turned 55 and could pull out their super. A bit into his opening,Mr CEO made the statement that went roughly like, anybody who was in a company for more than 5 years was not the kind of person the Company needed. The CP who was sitting next to him went ashen and at the end of the presentation it was explained by Mr CP that the CEO didn't mean pilots to be included in his comments. However he had lost us forever at that stage because he obviously didn't understand the business he was in.

A few years later and I was presenting at the Productivity Commission hearing on Deregulation in Aviation. The subject of LAMEs came up and I ended up with a raging arguement with the same CEO. I was attempting to argue that in our industry experience is everything. My example was of the old procedure where a defect was called into say SYD Engineering by the FE. Engineering would call back with a few quick requests for observations and tests. The aircraft would be met by a LAME and an apprentice assigned to the defect prior to arrival. Between them they had everything needed and the aircraft normally left on time. Under the new system they were met by a much cheaper AME or 3 who knew nothing about the defect and the aircraft left an hour late with the defect as a hold item.Which is the cheaper staff member? According to current wisdom its the low paid AME. It appears with this debacle, this thinking is now flowing on to the Pilot group.

I can see no future for any airline who sees this way of management as valid.



This thinking derives from narcissism, and as I have posted before, narcissistic managers attract other narcissistic managers to work for them because only narcissists will lick the required arse cheek as required. Qantas, with its infinite gradations of status, seniority and associated perquisites is a narcissists paradise: "Going to London next month old chap? I'll get you an upgrade to First, think nothing of it!"

The trouble is that narcissists believe their own bullshyte - they really do think the world revolves around them, the closest way I can describe how they think of "ordinary people" - meaning workers, is a little like dogs that talk. Pat them, feed them, but if they get out of line and don't do exactly as told, have them put down immediately.

What that means is that too a narcissist experience isn't important, I mean how could some little man in greasy overalls know more than you? How could a pilot dare tell you anything that is at variance with what that nice young man from Boeing or Airbus told you?

"Modern technology makes the old ways of thinking obsolete"....and you believe it...and start making smart cracks about "legacy airlines" and presumably legacy employees, who are long past their "use by" date and will be got rid of as soon as it is expedient.

This is the trouble. They hate experience because it shows them up as the know nothing amateurs that they are. Their response is to remove the experience, then no one in the organisation knows enough to point out the flaws in their stupid schemes.

As for the shareholders, narcissists don't care.

[David75]

Today, I didn’t give a 110% at work. I estimate this would have cost about 300kgs of fuel.

Well at least you didn't divert an A380 to Adelaide to make a point.

[Stiff Under Carriage]

well at least you didn't divert an A380 to Adelaide to make a point.

Hahaha. Brilliant! If only. :D

[Fonz121]

Today, I didn’t give a 110% at work. I estimate this would have cost about 300kgs of fuel.

I am an army of one.

That's the spirit!

Now if everyone did this on every flight imagine the costs?! Using above example, roughly $700 x number of flights per day (not known exactly by me), the costs must be near an extra $100,000 a day. Or $36,000,000 a year. Compare that to the amount you are saving by pissing everyone off with these contracts.

Easier to treat your staff well really.

[Sand dune Sam]

The fact that some Jetstar guys are in negotiation with management to form their own deal is appalling, and I bet you could pick which guys would be doing that, would they be in the top 100 on the JQ seniority list?...they have done it before and they'll do it again..low lifes, fair dinkum...:mad:

[xjt]

i am an army of 1.....and im not alone...!!!!

[psycho joe]

i am an army of 1.....and im not alone...!!!!

Unfortunately years of candidate psych profiling ensures that you are. :(

[Mr. Hat]

The biggest problem with these blow in Mac Donalds managers is that they don't fully understand the Flight Crew's job. They think that it's a case of flying from point A to point B. Unlike other industries it's the individual effort between point A and point B that makes ALL the difference.

People think it's a case of turning the autopilot on and sitting back and monitoring with the use of a set of procedures written in a company manual. This works very well in the fast food industry and not so well in the aviation industry.

Believe it or not every minute, every litre of fuel translates into millions and millions of dollars. Blindsighted by the KPI BonUs wheel they fail to realize engaged pilots create money that doesn't exist.

Senator X needs to have a close look at this system and the background and qualifications of every person that holds a 'management' position in an airline. Afterall this ain't Mac Donalds.

[SilverSleuth]

Very sad to see and read. Talk of pilot bans etc mean nothing.management don't care if a pilot is on a ban list long as they are signing up (which they will) and planes are taking off. They are eating you from the inside out.
If every jetstar pilot however said next friday etc we are all not working no matter what, then it would cease straight away. No planes taking off, then it would be taken very very seriously. the ball is firmly up to you guys. Good luck.

[Oakape]

This is the trouble. They hate experience because it shows them up as the know nothing amateurs that they are

This is why management hate pilots.

[Oakape]

Today, I didn’t give a 110% at work. I estimate this would have cost about 300kgs of fuel.

I am an army of one.


While every little bit helps, unfortunately this strategy is a longer term one that may or may not be recognized for what it is when the stats finally show the increased costs.

What is needed now is a top flight spin doctor who can fight fire with fire. The sort of person the politicians would use. They need to be in the press countering everything, no matter how small, with the facts. Public humiliation & a ground swell of public support for the pilots, engineers & even flight attendants is the only way to stop what is happening now.

You might be surprised just how powerful public opinion is.

[Captain Sherm]

The emails I have seen cover a wide range of operational, safety, personal, marketing, scheduling, strategy and commercial issues and should be printed off and made mandatory reading by airline executives and regulatory authority managers.

I guess they all have a common theme: "Innovation and enthusiasm are wonderful but don't try and re-learn every lesson already known to your employees and remember that almost all aviation's lessons were paid for in blood, bankruptcy or both"

Perhaps many managers whose learning was done via business school computer screens and whiteboards have never had that exquisite feeling of anguish when you tighten and screw just one quarter turn too much and strip the thread, often skinning a knuckle at the same time! Even worse, when ill-advised over tightening breaks off an exhaust manifold stud and you have to drill it out. Squeezing until something gives is not a practice that has any place in peacetime aviation. That certainly doesn't mean giving up on continuous improvement: it does mean don't waste opportunities for learning from the people involved and for executives and subordinates alike: "So far so good" in both business and safety, is the credo of fools.

I can offer little contribution to the situation except good wishes, and as a thinking piece, the following excerpt from a letter written by Admiral Nimitz to the entire Pacific Fleet after the swashbuckling Admiral Halsey ill-advisedly took the Third Fleet through a typhoon off Luzon in 1944, sinking 3 destroyers, damaging 9 other warships and costing 790 lives and 100 aircraft. Sorry its a bit of a read but I suggest it's worth it for executives and sub-ordinates reflecting on just exactly how tightly the business, safety and industrial screws should be turned:

"The safety of a ship against perils from storm, as well as from those of navigation and maneuvering, is always the primary responsibility of her commanding officer; but this responsibility is also shared by his immediate superiors in operational command since by the very fact of such command the individual commanding officer is not free to do at any time what his own judgment might indicate. Obviously no rational captain will permit his ship to be lost fruitlessly through blind obedience to plan or order, since by no chance could that be the intention of his superior. But the degree of a ship's danger is progressive and at the same time indefinite. It is one thing for a commanding officer, acting independently in time of peace, to pick a course and speed which may save him a beating from the weather, and quite another for him, in time of war, to disregard his mission and his orders and leave his station and duty.

It is here that the responsibility rests on unit, group, and force commanders, and that their judgment and authority must be exercised. They are of course the ones best qualified to weigh the situation and the relative urgency of safety measures versus carrying on with the job in hand. They frequently guard circuits and possess weather codes not available to all ships; and it goes without saying that any storm warnings or important weather information which they are not sure everybody have received should be re-transmitted as far as practicable. More than this, they must be conscious of the relative inexperience in seamanship, and particularly hurricane seamanship, of many of their commanding officers, despite their superb fighting qualities. One division commander reports that his captains averaged eight years or less out of the Naval Academy, and this is probably typical.

It is most definitely part of the senior officer's responsibility to think in terms of the smallest ship and most inexperienced commanding officer under him. He cannot take them for granted, give them tasks and stations, and assume either that they will be able to keep up and come through any weather that his own big ship can; or that they will be wise enough to gauge the exact moment when their tasks must be abandoned in order for them to keep afloat. The order for ships to be handled and navigated wholly for their own preservation should be originated early enough by the seniors, and not be necessarily withheld until the juniors request it. The very gallantry and determination of our young commanding officers need to be taken into account here as a danger factor, since their urge to keep on, to keep up, to keep station, and to carry out their mission in the face of any difficulty, may deter them from doing what is actually wisest and most profitable in the long run. 



Yet if the Officer in Tactical Command is to be held responsible for his smaller vessels, he must be kept aware of their conditions, and the onus of this rests on the commanding officers themselves. Each of them must not only do whatever he is free and able to do for his ship's safety, but must also keep his superiors in the chain of command fully informed as to his situation. If there is anything in his ship's particular condition or in the way she is taking the weather that worries him, he should not hesitate to pass the information to his seniors. To let this be regarded as a sign of faint- heartedness is to invite disaster, and seniors should indoctrinate their commanding officers accordingly. Going still further, it has been shown that at sea the severity of the weather may develop to a point where, regardless of combat commitments of the high command, the situation will require independent action by a junior without reference to his senior. This becomes mandatory if grave doubts arise in the mind of the junior as to the safety of his vessel, the lives of its crew, and the loss of valuable government property and equipment.

In conclusion, both seniors and juniors alike must realize that in bad weather, as in most other situations, safety and fatal hazard are not separated by any sharp boundary line, but shade gradually from one into the other. There is no little red light which is going to flash on and inform commanding officers or higher commanders that from then on there is extreme danger from the weather, and that measures for ships' safety must now take precedence over further efforts to keep up with the formation or to execute the assigned task. This time will always be a matter of personal judgment. Naturally no commander is going to cut thin the margin between staying afloat and foundering, but he may nevertheless unwittingly pass the danger point even though no ship is yet in extremis. Ships that keep on going as long as the severity of wind and sea has not yet come close to capsizing them or breaking them in two, may nevertheless become helpless to avoid these catastrophes later if things get worse. By then they may be unable to steer any heading but in the trough of the sea, or may have their steering control, lighting, communications, and main propulsion disabled, or may be helpless to secure things on deck or to jettison topside weights. The time for taking all measures for a ship's safety is while still able to do so. Nothing is more dangerous than for a seaman to be grudging in taking precautions lest they turn out to have been unnecessary. Safety at sea for a thousand years has depended on exactly the opposite philosophy"

Admiral Chester Nimitz

[Angle of Attack]

Burn Baby Burn!

I am aiming for 4 hours over destinaton and flying fast.


I am burning as much A1 as possible especially since I am about to leave this joint!

[Rabbitwear]

Cant wait for the DEC contracts , i mean why should I start in the right seat at age 54 , ill happily Do 600hours a year in any port , its a good holiday now the kids have grown up.
Its also better than passing out commands on paperplates just because of a start date. **** me thats so lame in this day and age.

[Mail-man]

I have been flying in GA for 6 years, piston and turboprop, and love it. I enjoy a set roster, plently of personal time and a personal and friendly relationship with management. I often thought I would move to the airlines when I needed more job security or a bigger pay packet to support a family or mortgage. My airline couterparts often said to me "I would do your job for my pay anyday".
It appears i'm earning more than Jetstar are offering now.
I have withdrawn my application and many of my colleagues have done the same. I pray there aren't too many who accept this offer..

[rodchucker]

Mr Hat is absolutely right about making sure the right people are in the right jobs. In some parts of the finance industry APRA have a "fit and proper" requirement that is based around qualifications and experience. If you dont have it, you dont get acceptance by the regulator.

The finance industry can only lose money rather than cost lives.

Harsh but fair I say.

[Pukka]

In 1946, James Barnes wrote ‘Does history repeat itself, the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce? No, that is too grand, too considered a process. History just burps, and we taste again that raw-onion sandwich it swallowed centuries ago.” (A History of the World in 10½ Chapters),

We don’t have to go back centuries to review a tragedy in which management demonstrated absolutely no understanding of our profession. Each work day management presents a multi-million asset to the Pilot in Command to manage. How the PIC manages that asset has a direct impact on the airline’s P&L and as such the airline’s commercial viability.

The post by Captain Sherm (140) contains a very important message, not only for each of us, but particularly for the Flight Operations management team at JQ.

Goodness knows what is motivating them at this time. They will probably not heed any advice, least of all mine, but for what it is worth. Gents –

· Behave in a professional manner.
· Start listening to your pilots.
· Deliver the truth to your management.
· Don’t allow yourselves to be used and as such be responsible for another attack on the Profession of Air Pilot.
· Do not be responsible for creating an environment that results in a degradation of safety standards. Poor morale, anger and distraction are safety issues.
· Remember the ATSB will investigate management’s role in any accident / incident.
People may treat the Senate with contempt, but such behaviour will not be tolerated at a Royal Commission!

[Three Greenz]

I'd be interested to see some of the emails, can imagine the general context but would be really interesting to see what's being said. Unity is key & bugger the ones that take this dismal offer.

[Flava Saver]

As they are internal company emails, most of us are reluctant to release. However, I would like to say how proud I am that several hundred pilots have told management 'how it is'(warts and all-some VERY colourful), and for all of you on the sidelines, be assured that CASA, media and certain politicians are all primed. These guys are reckless, and out of control. :=

[Flava Saver]

....and for anyone thinking of joining? Hmmmm. I wouldn't recommend it as it stands. But IF you decide to join, please read EVERY bit of fine print, because if you sign up, you will have very little sympathy from the guys in the crew room, or in the LHS when you feel you want to vent, when you can't go away for the week end on YOUR DAYS OFF, as crewing won't release you. It is ridiculous. :ugh:

[astroboy55]

[QUOTE]JETSTAR has been bombarded with hundreds of signed emails from its pilots, warning that the airline is placing the lives of passengers and flight crews at risk in its bid to force new pilots on to ''deficient'' group contracts.

At close of business yesterday, more than 320 of Jetstar's pool of about 400 pilots had written to the airline's group chief executive, Brian Buchanan.

Many of the emails had also been copied to Alan Joyce, the chief executive of Jetstar's parent company, Qantas - which was dealing with its own crisis after a flight from Singapore had to be diverted to Adelaide yesterday because the plane was not carrying enough fuel to reach its Melbourne destination.

Advertisement: Story continues below
About 50 angry pilots did make it to Melbourne, however, to attend a heated meeting with Jetstar's Australia and New Zealand boss, David Hall. A similar meeting, where senior executives will address pilots' working conditions and safety concerns, is scheduled for Sydney today.

Pilots say the move to force recruits on to contracts outside the enterprise bargaining agreement will lead to distracting conflict on the flight deck and in the long-term a more inexperienced workforce, ill-equipped to handle mid-air emergencies.

Captain Michael Danaher, a senior Airbus A320 captain who has been with Jetstar since its inception, said the new contracts, which offer less pay and poorer working conditions for new pilots, represented a short-sighted grab for immediate financial gain which would compromise the airline's safety standards and result in long-term damage to its reputation.

''On a daily basis, my crew and I are constantly blocking errors and threats to the safety of our aircraft, staff and passengers,'' he said in an email to Jetstar senior executives. ''We need skilled crew on the flight deck with ample experience to do this rather than pilots with little experience.''

Another email seen by the Herald, by Captain James Matthews, warns that morale among the pilots is at an all-time low.

''I am worried that this will start to have safety impacts on the operation as this issue is all that people are talking about and everyone is so angry, and this leads to a huge distraction in the flight deck.''

The secretary of the Australian and International Pilots Association, Steve Anderson, said the new contracts, under which cadets could accumulate a training debt of $150,000 to the airline while earning as little as $34,000 a year, would place Jetstar at the bottom of the international scale and would lead to transient, less experienced pilots.

''This is not about money; it's about terms and conditions of employment and how it is now becoming a safety factor,'' Captain Anderson said.

Jetstar's spokesman, Simon Westaway, said passenger safety would in no way be compromised. He confirmed the airline had received a large number of pilots' emails in the past four days.

Mr Westaway rejected allegations Jetstar had used up all the goodwill Mr Joyce often cited as the airline group's biggest asset.

''Part of our secret of success is that we have always had open discourse [with staff],'' he said. ''The meetings occurring have been very constructive … and we will continue to have direct dialogue.''[QUOTE]



At least its getting into the media now.

Surely the X man and his senators will do something about this. Its not like its one or 2 pilots complaining....its 320 out of 400!!

[rodchucker]

"Part of our secret success is that we always had open discourse with staff...."

I guess he forgot to add the relevant words "when we get found out and only after the event, forced to or if circumstances require it".

These words show how the company interprets the word integrity in dealings with the staff as well as Senators and the public.

I once heard a Supreme Court Judge call a CEO completely devoid of corporate morality, so these things are important if you get into the right forum. Hopefully one day they will have the benefit of this Judges experience.

[Pukka]

[Mr Westaway rejected allegations Jetstar had used up all the goodwill Mr Joyce often cited as the airline group's biggest asset.

''Part of our secret of success is that we have always had open discourse [with staff],'' he said. ''The meetings occurring have been very constructive … and we will continue to have direct dialogue.'']

Simon, my boy, you live in la la land. Your statements show outright defiance of reality.

[KRUSTY 34]

As one of those sitting on the sidelines I am, as no doubt most are, absolutely apalled at what JQ management are trying to get away with in this latest "contract".

What worries me, is that faced with such a revolt, management may tweak the contract here and there and then try to sell what will essentially be a dressed up turd. It's a common tactic during EBA negotiations, and the weak minded and naive quite often fall for it. I doubt very much the current JQ pilot group would fall for such skulldugery, but there are those Desperates waiting in the wings.

Lets face it, the JQ Aussie EBA is still nothing to write home about, but it is the current standard, and it has been agreed upon. Anything less would be a severe reduction in the JQ pilot's standard of living. And for what? So Buchanan, Joyce, and all the other parasites can pocket their bonuses at your expense!

I may be stating the obvious but, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, don't even consider anything less than the current agreed EBA. No matter how much these arsh@les try to dress up this latest abomination.

[wessex19]

Source; Geoff Easdown From: Herald Sun May 18, 2011

JETSTAR chief Bruce Buchanan has revealed the budget carrier is making more from in-flight service than ticket sales.
He told BusinessDaily last night that the profit from sales of ancillary items - such as cups of coffee, muffins, baggage and special seat charges - was about $24 a passenger.

This money goes straight to the bottom line.

"One way to look at it is that if we didn't have the ancillary revenue we wouldn't be making any money. We would be losing money," Mr Buchanan said, in a likely reference to the hurt caused by the rocketing price of jet fuel.

In other developments yesterday Jetstar parent Qantas rolled out its biggest gun - the 7.5 million member Frequent Flyer program - opening a new front in its war with arch rival Virgin Australia.

The Qantas loyalty program has been revamped to give Jetstar passengers the ability to earn and burn points, a move designed to appeal to the budget-conscious suits market.

..A new alliance, like the one Qantas has with Woolworths, has been struck with Optus where its subscribers will be able to generate frequent flyer points.

Qantas chief Alan Joyce said the changes will give the airline a competitive edge on other carriers.

Under the changes Jetstar's fare structure will change.

StarClass - the carrier's equivalent of business - will be replaced with a full business product, a move that industry observers say is clearly aimed at Virgin Australia's attempt to lure small and medium businesses.

[John Citizen]

This might explain everything


Big salaries can lead to psychological damage
Fri, 03 Dec, 01:00 PM
By Alice Uribe, ninemsn Money

The financial service industry practice of paying young traders huge salaries could be psychologically damaging, an Australian academic says.

"Most traders are young because they burn out and some of them are paid considerably more than $350,000 per year," said UTS Centre for Corporate Governance director Thomas Clarke.

"It is a constant danger that when people are heavily incentivised towards performance, the consequences can be very serious ... and are bound to lead to actions which could lead to potentially fraudulent behavior."

Mr Clarke's comments followed yesterday’s sentencing of 25-year-old fund manager John Joseph Hartman to a minimum of three years in jail on 25 charges of insider trading.

The former Sydney private schoolboy was earning $350,000 a year as a share dealer by the time he was 21, entering a world that "corrupted his values", Supreme Court Justice Peter McClennan said.

"Paying $350,000 to a recent graduate of 21 years of age carrying out a task of modest responsibility underlines the extent to which the values which underpin our society can be compromised," Justice McClennan said.

Mr Clarke said because traders were very young, they were often not prepared to deal with the pressures that came with their highly paid jobs.

Companies should take part of the blame for cases such as Hartman’s, Mr Clarke said.

"The financial industry needs to look at performance indicators and devise ones that encourage honesty rather than recklessness and if the traders are inclined towards recklessness, I would blame the companies as much as the trader," he said.

Financial recruiter Thomas Hancock said that while salaries varied from a standard of $60,000 per year to a high of $100,000 for “sought after” new grads, salaries could rise very quickly once bonuses were added.

"In some organisations there is a bonus structure of 50 percent of base salary," he said.

"If someone is trading well, they are going to get paid a good salary. And if they are doing well, banks are going to want to keep them or else someone else will pay them more."

Tim Samway, a fund manager at Hyperion Asset Management, said that in his early days as a broker he saw young brokers getting paid $1 million dollars year.

"It's a real drought and flood type scenario, but when it’s good, it’s very very good. But with the GFC the flash has definitely gone out of the industry," he said.

Mr Samway said that it was “obscene and unreasonable” that a 21-year-old would get that kind of salary.

"I’ve been exposed to individuals who have defrauded companies, and they often start by dabbling and then it becomes a slippery path. Young people don’t always have the emotional maturity to deal with that amount of money," he said.

Mr Hancock said that due to competition in the industry it was unlikely that this practice would change, but financial institutions needed to take more responsibility for mentoring young staff.

"You really have to look at the values of the person when it comes to insider trading and it is the responsibility of the organisation to monitor this," he said.

Giving evidence during the trial, Hartman's father Keith, a prominent obstetrician, described the lifestyle his son had as "plastic".

Justice McClennan referenced the description when handing down his sentence.

"Overseas holidays and gambling trips to Las Vegas and other casinos, together with an expensive luxury motor vehicle, became part of his life."

Hartman was found guilty of passing on information to a close friend about the purchase and disposal of stocks.

[Dark Knight]

...and for anyone thinking of joining? Hmmmm. I wouldn't recommend it as it stands. But IF you decide to join, please read EVERY bit of fine print, because if you sign up, you will have very little sympathy from the guys in the crew room, or in the LHS when you feel you want to vent, when you can't go away for the week end on YOUR DAYS OFF, as crewing won't release you. It is ridiculousDid not seem to cause any concern for the Lame, the Maimed, Soldiers of Fortune and Thieves in a past era, nor will it cause concern to the same to these `types' and others in the current era?

[The Green Goblin]

Great to see my union has filed proceedings in the federal court against Jetstar.

The AFAP is seeking an injunction to stop Jetstar offering the contract as it stands (does this mean the company can change it though and re-offer it?).

This action is filed for the 10th of June.

All you GA pilots out there, please join the union. This affects all your futures if you ever want to fly a jet on decent terms and conditions.

I hope you have been forwarded a copy of this contract which has been doing the rounds of late. Put it up in your crew rooms, your caravan park, your tent, and even your flying school.

If the A team succeeds, your future will be pistons in the bush not being able to afford to fly a jet in the cities.

[Mr. Hat]

KRUSTY, the reality is that people will join on this contract. QF is no longer an option and VA isn't going to grow much.

They will get their 320 endorsement and 1000 hours on type. They will then leave to go to Strategic, Tiger or more likely overseas. A lot of the minimum criteria for overseas carriers include experience on type.

Jetstar will become another part of the GA pilgrimage on the way to an airline job. How do I know this? I know people in this exact position: they just want 500hrs and will then piss off.

I feel pity for the guys in the Left hand seat. The new era will be itinerant FO's that come and go.

This trio Bruce, Alan and David (BAD) they're like drunks with the keys to a brewery. Julia cut them each a personalised set.

[aulglarse]

Hat, my biggest concern is the welfare of the current experienced f/o's who won't be getting a command off the EBA in the future as 'promised'.

[strim]

XENOPHON TO FIGHT JETSTAR CONTRACTS THAT IMPOSE 'HOME DETENTION'
AIRLINE "TREATS PILOTS LIKE LINDSAY LOHAN"

Independent Senator for South Australia, Nick Xenophon, has described changes being made to contracts of new Jetstar pilots, which require them to be on call in their home city, even on days off, "as absurd and unacceptable".
"This is a disgraceful intrusion into the private lives of pilots and their families," Nick said.
Senator Xenophon, who earlier this year initiated a Senate Inquiry into pilot training and airline safety said: "If this clause is allowed to stand, pilots will not be able to travel with their families on their rostered days off without the express permission of the airline."
Under Clause 6 of the contracts being offered to new Jetstar cadets, it is a condition of employment that employees "reside in (their) Home Base for the term of their employment or ensure (they) are available for contact in (their) Home Base except on leave or when (they) are cleared to leave (their) Home Base on days off by crew scheduling".
"In other words, pilots have to check with the airline what they can do on their days off," Nick said.
"These changes virtually put pilots in home detention," Nick said. "Jetstar should not be treating pilots like they're Lindsay Lohan."
In recent days, more than 340 Jetstar pilots emailed group Chief Executive Officer Bruce Buchanan arguing the contracts were deficient and could pose a risk to the flying public.
As well as slashing a range of entitlements, the contracts will see cadets saddled with a training debt to the company of up to $150,000, while they are earning as little as $34,000 a year.
"I don't want the pilot of the plane I'm flying sitting in the cockpit at 30,000 feet worrying about how he's going to pay back the boss," Nick said. "I want pilots to be totally focussed on keeping the plane in the air."
Senator Xenophon has been inundated will emails and phone calls from concerned pilots and will be referring the new Jetstar contracts to the current Senate Inquiry into pilot training and airline safety, as well as the Senate Education Employment and Workplace Relations Committee.

[Mr. Hat]

loosecannon.

loose cannon

meaning

an unpredictable person or thing, liable to cause damage if not kept in check by others.

Origin

the allusion in the phrase is to improperly secured cannons on ships which were likely to roll about on deck and damage the ship. No evidence has come to light to indicate that the phrase was used by sailors in the days that ships carried cannons. The term is alluded to in victor hugo’s novel ninety three, 1874. A translation of the french original describes cannons being tossed about onboard following a violent incident onboard ship:

"the carronade, hurled forward by the pitching, dashed into this knot of men, and crushed four at the first blow; then, flung back and shot out anew by the rolling, it cut in two a fifth poor fellow" ...
" the enormous cannon was left alone. She was given up to herself. She was her own mistress, and mistress of the vessel. She could do what she willed with both."

henry kingsley picked up this reference in his novel number seventeen, 1875 :

"at once, of course, the ship was in the trough of the sea, a more fearfully dangerous engine of destruction than mr. Victor hugo’s celebrated loose cannon."

the earliest figurative use of 'loose cannon', i.e. A usage not relating to actual cannons, in print that i can find is from the galveston daily news, december 1889:

The negro vote in the south is a unit now mainly because it is opposed by the combined white vote. It would in no event become, as mr. Grady once said, "a loose cannon in a storm-tossed ship."

[Dogman]

Senator Xenophon.........we must keep this guy in the Senate!! He seems to be one of only a few Federal Politicians willing to hang it out there for what he believes in.

Good Luck J* guys........the rest of the industry is watching, and holding our breaths!

DM

[stan dupp]

For the SMALL number of pilots who have signed this contract... The stars in your eyes are a direct result of the rocks in your head smashing together :*

[Oakape]

"One way to look at it is that if we didn't have the ancillary revenue we wouldn't be making any money. We would be losing money," Mr Buchanan said.


And there you have it - straight from the horses mouth. Jetstar fares are not sustainable without finding other ways to make passengers pay. It might even be fare to say that low cost carrier fares are not sustainable.

All the rubbish about how the legacy carriers are gouging the traveling public. As I have often said, if you want to pay bus fare - travel by bus!

[framer]

I do too. Not for their physical safety, but their career. The few people who have signed up to this will be known throughout the industry regardless of whether they're good people or not and will be ostracised for a good 15 years or so. Their names will become known on flight decks across Ausi.Personally I don't have anything against them because everyone has their own personal situations to deal with, but they really would be better to sit in their Metro or Baron 58 until this blows over. Poor buggers probably got the call and thought they'd made it.

[T80]

Just from my view talking to fellow Pilots and close mates it would seem that there are more Pilots leaving the industry altogether than accepting these contracts.

I dont know anybody who has accepted this new contract by one star and if I did then I would no longer be associating with them anymore.

Its sad when people have invested so much to then receive so little :(

[jibba_jabba]

Jetstar wannabe....... maybe I would have said that before this garbage started spewing out of the mouth of Jet* HR/Management.

I was never offered the "contract" but will be saying thanks but no thanks if it has the hide to turn up at my door.

What a joke. :ugh:
There is support on the outside for you.

Hey as a suggestion if you could get some letter templates to send to local MP's, Nick X etc etc and other officials then that will help us non-letter writing peoples to join the "education" and awareness of MP's and the like??

Good luck guys!

[Fruet Mich]

How does the rest of the pilot community get a hold of Bruce Buchanans email so we can all write an email?

This is not just a Jetstar problem.

[framer]

How does the rest of the pilot community get a hold of Bruce Buchanans email so we can all write an email?

This is not just a Jetstar problem.

You'd get one more from me....especially if it had Senitor X's email address as well. If it was just BB then all we'd achieve is overloading his server. I reckon you might even get pilots from all over the globe emailing.

[Muff Hunter]

it's not hard.....

add a @jetstar dot com the end of the parasites name.

[DashQ]

In light of the afap proceedings does anyone have any ideas on how those in the pool should approach this? Some of them are yet to respond and need some guidance.

[claret101]

For those who dont already have it....




[email protected]

[The Kelpie]

the word used to describe my advice is CAUTION!!

The Kelpie

[Stiff Under Carriage]

Why did it take so long for an injunction to be filed against this rubbish. Isn't AIPA and AFAP full of lawyers?

This should have been done in the first place, though I guess it somewhat has been good that it hasn't as this Jet* contract has possibly bought the pilot group within Jet* and every other operator closer together. To stop management from trying to pull the wool over ours eyes. War has broken out and the Jet* boys and girls are ATM our front line fighters.

To quote Dogman, the rest of the industry is watching, and holding their breaths.

[aussie027]

Maybe the AFAP and other unions/pilot groups should take legal action against all the large employers doing the same thing as Jokestar, hiring new pilots under different company names with different payscales and conditions instead of under their existing EBA's to sit in the same cockpits.

Cobham is one I'm aware of, it was mentioned by several people in another thread, Im sure people out there know of others too??

How the hell is this even legal under Aust IR laws when these new companies are only created to specifically circumvent mutually agreed EBA's??? :mad::mad:

Serenity Bloody Now !!!

[Mr Baxter]

Very very informative if you have a spare 10 minutes. Maybe someone should give this to Jetstar management...

Dear Bruce, please watch this:
YouTube - RSA Animate - Drive: The surprising truth about what motivates us

[waren9]

Stiff U/C

You cant take a rumour to court.

You have to wait for the employer to actually implement that rumour, then gather evidence and form a case then take it to court.

There is nothing fast about it.

[The Kelpie]

Which they have now by entering into the contract with the 4 guinea pigs, oh sorry I mean Cadets!

The best these 4 guys can hope for now is that the contracts get quashed by the Federal Court and any pressure from the Senate Committee and they get their contracts reissued on the EBA.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[The Green Goblin]

Which they have now by entering into the contract with the 4 guinea pigs, oh sorry I mean Cadets!

The best these 4 guys can hope for now is that the contracts get quashed by the Federal Court and any pressure from the Senate Committee and they get their contracts reissued on the EBA.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

The problem is, in the contract these Pilots (If we can call them that) can be sacked by the company for any reason in the first 12 months.

You don't think the company will sign them up on the EBA do you? They will be 'let go' and forced to pay back their bonds.

In fact, there are incentives on these contracts for Jetstar to let you go in the first 12 months. They save at least 27k by hiring you over an EBA Pilot. Plus they make at least 12k on your type endorsement and a GST credit on top.

Straight away they are 40k ahead by hiring you over an experienced Pilot.

If they can find any reason to let you go in the first 12 months they will. They have financial incentive to.

Disgusting.

Funny how there are Emirates advertisements on all these threads!

Funny how Emirates require 4000 hours minimum to fly one of their aeroplanes. It can't be that they place value on experience can it???

[The Kelpie]

But the point is that Jetstar have now entered into the contract and have committed an alleged breach under the Fair Work Act. This paves the way for legal action through the courts.

Until they had entered into the contract on the first occasion they had not committed a breach!!

Game on

The Kelpie

[The Bunglerat]

If your really bored why not have some fun and make up a few fictitious characters and apply for them too. Mav, Biggles and Iceman might look a little obvious so keep the names and experience levels believable.

Whilst I appreciate the sentiment, I would NOT recommend this type of behaviour, as it only serves to promote pilots as childish & immature (which, unfortunately, many already are). There are other effective - & professional - ways in which to send the message to JQ management, & even if they refuse, or are too stupid, to interpret it for what it is, at least you are not lowering yourselves to their level.

[Compylot]

So.... did the Jetstar pilot who told everyone to 'toughen up princesses' send an email along with the rest?

Try typing in "toughen up princesses jetstar email" into google, you only get 57000 results :sad:

[ThePaperBoy]

Compy,

As always you bring value to an important discussion. I bet captains all around the country can't wait to share the cockpit with you. Have you started wearing your uniform on buses yet just in case the driver has a heart problem and a hero is needed?

I better put a :hmm: in here now just in case you think I'm serious.

[ozaggie]

Jeez, beat me to it. Probably polishing the RayBan's as we speak. Every one needs a super hero

[Stiff Under Carriage]

Waren9

I am aware of that, but the injunction was only applied for on Tuesday. These contract offerings have been going for at least a week now. Only after the unions received an email from a Jet* pilot was the idea even looked at. The unions should have been all over this like a rash before it got to the point 380+ emails were sent.

Having said that though, like I said, kinda glad it took a while, it has bought the pilot body together to fight these :mad: house conditions. Not only in Jet* but as I said in other companies as well, we are all backing you, every single jet* pilot out there, we are watching with keen interest.

[Angle of Attack]

I already applied and got an interview, suffice to say I wont be going lol

[Swimbetweentheflags]

Application from myself is now withdrawn. I'm embarrassed to even admit I had an apllication in with these guys in the first place :O
Would be a fairly safe bet to say that aspiring Pilots and current Pilots would now have Jetstar at the bottom of the barrel for future employee prospects :ugh:

[FlyForFun1]

Folks, might I suggest you don't withdraw your applications, or fail to turn up....
That allows management to say "nobody wants the job..."
Go through the process, accept the job, but refuse to sign the contract they present.
You could even present J* with your own contract in reply - this is standard practice to respond with a revised offer, perhaps the union could furnish something along those lines....
Remember, at this point it becomes a contract negotiation, the work is already settled.

Several reasons I suggest this:
- This prevents managment from saying "We have a pilot shortage, nobody wants the job ..."
- If applicants withdraw their applications, it is about them not wanting the job
- If successful applicants wont sign the contract, its about the contract T&C.
- If management change their minds (yes, and I beleive in Santa too!), you still hold position in the application queue

This is not about pilots not wanting to fly for the airlines, its about pilots not prostituing/bankrupting/disrupting themselves and their families in order to do so.

Even if they change the application process and bring the contract negotiations up front, that is the time to put forward your claim. the job is not filled because you can't agree on the contract.

It also takes time to process an applicant, time is money, this process costs. If these costs continue yet there is no results, even the bean counters should (and note I say 'should') react to that.

Keep your applications current.

Bottom line, you actually want to be an airline pilot, it is the 'top-of-the-tree' in aviation for many of us. You want it known that you will not bend over backward and take a stiff rogering to do it!

Make it about the contract T&C, not the job.

[Gnadenburg]

Apart from expecting other people not to apply for positions what are current Jetstar pilots doing?

Going sick? I heard ( oddly ) sick leave at Jetstar minimal. Knocking back training positions? Doing anything?

I mean Jetstar pilots have never been upstanding industrially. And the current mess is a lot to do with them. What are they doing apart from expecting others' to fight their battles?

[Artificial Horizon]

Well something is happening, I have been called twice now on days off in the hope that I would work, suffice to say I declined. I have also heard of simulator sessions being cancelled due to crew going sick and no one else willing to take over. I feel they may have pushed it one step to far this time around. :eek:

[Gnadenburg]

Fair enough, but with respect, lost simulator sessions won't affect them.

I just don't know what motivates J* pilots to get out of bed in the morning.

[Mr. Hat]

A total ban on WDO's might get their attention!

[jeppesenboeing]

Short of walking off the job (which is illegal and prosecutable by dismissal in Australia), what do you propose to do Gnandenburg? Any change in work pattern from the norm can be construed as industrial action (if you had ever bothered to look it up).

If you are referring to working within the confines of the EBA and not showing good will - i think you'll find that's well and truly underway - although nobody would put it on the record.

If you have so many great ideas maybe you could help out by contacting AFAP/AIPA. That is if you are seriously interested in helping out this war on our profession. If you are just sitting bored with nothing to do and feel like taking a cheap shot on PPrune, then quite frankly I know most of the JQ guys would tell you where to go! Theres enough stress on these guys and their families for you to throw your idle time at them too!

I know the JQ boys are doing whatever they can within the realms of legality and WELL DONE GUYS AND GIRLS!

To anyone who is thinking of signing up on the this new agreement - from what I've heard you will be well and truly feeling left out in the cold after you start.

[Roller Merlin]

Angry pilots battle Jetstar: Court action and protests over new contracts
Steve Creedy, Aviation writer From: The Australian May 20, 2011 12:00AM

PILOT angst has hit new highs at low-cost carrier Jetstar over a new contract that group executive Bruce Buchanan insists is essential to the company's ability to grow.

The Jetstar Pilots Council has taken the unusual step of writing directly to all Qantas board members, while the Australian Federation of Air Pilots has launched Federal Court action and the Australian and International Pilots Association is taking the issue to Fair Work Australia today.

"We've prepared a brief on that and the previous contract and the behaviour of the company towards these cadet pilots," AIPA spokesman Richard Woodward said yesterday. "So we're going ahead with that meeting and we intend to follow up with some meetings with appropriate political people to reinforce the fact that we think they're circumventing Australian workplace laws."

AFAP executive director Terry O'Connell said the federation's claim related to a breach of the existing award "in three or four areas" and it would be seeking immediate relief at a Federal Court directions hearing on June 10.

Mr O'Connell said the union's intention was to get Jetstar management to rethink its position and employ pilots on the enterprise bargaining agreement to which it had been a willing party.

He said that agreement was supposed to herald a new era of co-operation and parties working together in collective sense.

"Unfortunately, it hasn't transpired -- on the basis of these latest actions," Mr O'Connell said.

The pilots are incensed by airline moves to put new hires of junior officers on a group contract outside the enterprise agreement. That guarantees employment for just 600 hours instead of the 800-plus Jetstar pilots generally work. AIPA says the contract allows the company to move new hires to any base in its network and could see them on standby for 12 days a month.

More than 300 pilots have emailed management expressing their alarm and raising fears about the impact of the anger and unrest on the carrier's safety culture and their sense of betrayal. The company's decision to sack pilot Joe Eakins for airing his grievances about the company in the media has made Jetstar pilots reluctant to speak publicly. But, behind the scenes, many are seething.

"I am honestly concerned that safety is not the focus in this company's management, but money and the managers' KPIs (key performance indicators)," said one veteran pilot. "As you must be aware, many aircraft accidents worldwide have been attributed to pilot error. The stress and anguish placed on pilots by this mismanagement will cause more errors within the pilot group and where or when these errors align to a deadly end I do not know, but it looks closer each day."

The letter to the board, as well as to Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce and Jetstar Group boss Bruce Buchanan, accuses management of destroying trust with the pilots and raises questions about a wider agenda, which many pilots believe is to outsource the airline's operations overseas to reduce costs. The letter says that it has become abundantly clear that no amount of dialogue will alter management's plans.

"Despite well over 50 per cent of the Jetstar pilot group now negatively responding to your plan, it is clear to pilots that you intend to spend a great deal of money trying to win the opportunity to circumvent the collective agreement," it says.

Unsurprisingly, Jetstar rejects claims the new contracts are affecting safety and Mr Buchanan argued this week that the group would be severely hampered without the flexibility they allowed.

"I think primarily the union's concerned about whether they've got less industrial clout when the EBA comes up in 2013," Mr Buchanan said. "We make no apologies. The focus for us is about creating a profitable, successful business and it's tough, the airline game's tough."

Mr Buchanan said Jetstar was offering the new pilots 800 hours a year and, under the Modern Award, this meant they were classified as full-time. He said wages and conditions were similar to those in the EBA and paid a junior first officer flying 800 hours about $87,000.

He noted some low-cost carriers had a variable pay model so pilots were paid only for the hours they flew, but Jetstar had put in a floor of 600 hours a year.

"The pay structure is part fixed, part variable, so it's more weighted towards an incentive for productivity," he said.

"But it's still a full-time contract and the salary numbers are still very attractive."

Mr Buchanan argued that the new contract was an effective way of facilitating growth that allowed the company to move experienced pilots around the rest of the group and align with the contracts it had in other countries. It also provided a more productive contract for delivering growth in Australia.

He said command upgrades drove increases in pilot pay and Jetstar had delivered more of those in recent months than it had in the past few years.

The push by pilots or their unions to get every part of the Jetstar business on the same wages and conditions was "never going to happen".

"Our businesses serve different markets and you've got to come up with different business models which will actually show new growth so we can be profitable and successful," Mr Buchanan said. "And success is what creates job security and what creates growth. It's an active discussion that we need to keep having with the pilots."

Lies and damn lies. These contracts are for Australian-based positions and clearly written and offered as "Part Time". Sure its a tough gig, sell more muffins and pringles to give yourself another million dollars like you did last year. If he had any final sense of integrity, this has lost it for all.

[breakfastburrito]

Phuck it, your a lying sack of sh!t.

Jetstar Aus Group Contract (http://www.mediafire.com/?fejyfm3jy00lr5p)
Jetstar Aus Pilot Policy (http://www.mediafire.com/?kn59anggtr36qu4)
Jetstar Endorsement Bond Agreement [ACCESS RESTORED] (http://www.mediafire.com/?j3ik0j3g2bbmh35)

[T80]

Well done Burrito

Clearly states in that contract that Pilot will be employed under part time basis !
Even a 3 year old kid could read that properly and understand it unlike BB. :ugh:
Like was said in earlier post.
Paid part time but expected to work full time.

[mppgf]

Flyforfun1,
Your idea has a lot of merit.However another idea is that any pilot who is offered ANY contract offered by Jetstar and is prepared to knock it back should respond that they are only interested in an EBA position(ie the position you spent time and money being interviewed for) Once you accept ANY contract with them you will eventually be pushed into the very contract that is on offer now.Anybody who accepts the current contract would have to be insane.Jetstar management are ruthless:E and they will squeeze every drop they can out of you.DO NOT ACCEPT ANY ASSURANCES FROM ANYBODY AT JETSTAR, THEY WILL NEVER HONOR ANY THING THEY SAY.!!!!!!

Gnadenburg you are an idiot and have no idea what you are talking about.:ugh:

[Karunch]

Forgive my ignorance but aren't the Jq a320 captains that promoted themselves to the 330 in Singapore on an hourly rate with a guaranteed minimum 600 hours/ year?

I trust they incur the same wrath your new joiners receive.

[Bigboeingboy]

Jetstar Pilots will never stand up for themselves. They will always want others to do their dirty work whilst they climb over each other for the next promotion or basing.
Just have a look at the history of some of them. 1989 ring a bell?

[VH-ABC]

Bigboeingboy,

You raised valid points at first, now you just look like youre trying to start a fight. What percentage of Jetstar pilots were even in their twentys in '89? I cant see how its helpful to compare basically two different generations.

[patienceboy]

Some points I noted...

*Pilots MUST be familiar with the “pilot policy” and comply with it at all times - yet it may be amended at the absolute discretion of the company at any time.

*Clause 7 and 16 of the policy are already blank. What will be inserted there?

*A duty already commenced can be extended by the company to the full extent allowable by Flight and Duty limitations and the pilot must accept this.

*Pilots with <2 years in the company (regardless of experience) are “Level 1” First Officers. The performance bonus doesn’t apply to level 1 FOs, RDO payments are less for level 1 FOs, hourly rates are less for level 1 FOs and Level 1 FOs only get 108 RDOs per annum – where Level 2 get 132.

*Annual leave must be taken at a time fixed by the company – provided 28 days notice is given.

*You can’t leave home base on an RDO without company consent.

*You must have a mobile telephone and ALWAYS be readily contactable. This naturally includes RDOs etc.

*Hourly rate of pay includes all duties (including deadhead, sim, etc). So as a part time employee you may only be paid for 50 flying hours per month, but spend another 20 hours paxing and doing sim for no extra pay.

*The hourly rate will be reviewed by the company each year.

*You can’t mow the neighbor’s lawn for a carton of beer without company consent.

*After your first year of service you must give 3 months notice to leave.

*If your employment is terminated for any reason (including “due to operational requirements”), you have to pay the full endorsement cost back before your last day.


I am not a lawyer, so everyone should get their own proper legal advice.

[The Bunglerat]

Bigboeingboy, I don't work for JQ, but I have mates who do. They are good blokes, professionals in the true sense of the word, & the only reason they took the job in the first place was because personal circumstances & a lack of better options were such that it was either JQ or nothing. Some of them have since been able to vote with their feet & take their skills elsewhere, & some are just waiting for the opportunity.

It's very easy for us all to be armchair critics & point the finger at them, but I make it a point of trying not to pass judgment on someone before walking a mile in their shoes. Nor do I tar everyone with the same brush. So instead of taking the cheap option & criticising them for taking the job in the first place, prostituting themselves, degrading the industry, etc etc, how about we just turn the page & give them a bit of support for once! If you want to have a go at anyone, have a go at BB & his despicable band of mis-managers for trying to sell this sh!te in the first place.

"I think primarily the union's concerned about whether they've got less industrial clout when the EBA comes up in 2013," Mr Buchanan said. "We make no apologies. The focus for us is about creating a profitable, successful business and it's tough, the airline game's tough."

The arrogance of this person is truly astonishing!

[Mr. Hat]

What Bunglerat said.

Trying to alienate all Jetstar pilots because of something that happened over 20 years ago won't help any of us. In fact it plays into the hands of those that want to screw us most.

[The Green Goblin]

"I think primarily the union's concerned about whether they've got less industrial clout when the EBA comes up in 2013," Mr Buchanan said. "We make no apologies. The focus for us is about creating a profitable, successful business and it's tough, the airline game's tough."

Of course they are concerned of having less industrial clout, this is the exact reason you are doing this! You want to crush them in 2013.

Thankfully BB, you won't be there :D

As for focusing on creating a profitable, successful Airline business, you could just cut out the Airline side completely and focus on muffins!

[Sunfish]

Bigboeingboy is "new" and his posts are abrasive attempts to divide and cause friction... Draw you own conclusions.

[Capt L]

- If management change their minds (yes, and I beleive in Santa too!), you still hold position in the application queue

I believe that when you say you are not interested in a part time position under the contract being offered, you are told your name will be removed from the hold file. If the unions succeed in squashing the contract I hope they assist pilot's who turned the job down in getting a position on the EBA?

[Gnadenburg]

A family to provide for .... You pretentious ignorant idiot

titan uranus

So what is the difference between a new joiner joining on this new contract and yourself? Does his family not count?

Lay off new joiners. You yourselves have created the greatest mess in professional aviation witnessed by our generation.

[Gnadenburg]

Short of walking off the job (which is illegal and prosecutable by dismissal in Australia), what do you propose to do Gnandenburg? Any change in work pattern from the norm can be construed as industrial action (if you had ever bothered to look it up).

If you are referring to working within the confines of the EBA and not showing good will - i think you'll find that's well and truly underway - although nobody would put it on the record.

If you have so many great ideas maybe you could help out by contacting AFAP/AIPA. That is if you are seriously interested in helping out this war on our profession. If you are just sitting bored with nothing to do and feel like taking a cheap shot on PPRuNe, then quite frankly I know most of the JQ guys would tell you where to go! Theres enough stress on these guys and their families for you to throw your idle time at them too!

I know the JQ boys are doing whatever they can within the realms of legality and WELL DONE GUYS AND GIRLS!

To anyone who is thinking of signing up on the this new agreement - from what I've heard you will be well and truly feeling left out in the cold after you start.

Firstly, your last paragraph is morally repugnant and shows the level of gutlessness you people have displayed for years.

On sick leave, I am just querying what has made Jetstar pilots so dutiful over the years? It sounds like such a depressing job surly this should have reflected in sick leave. Yet I hear it hasn't. High individual sick leave should not be construed as industrial action with medical certificate.

[Gnadenburg]

Forgive my ignorance but aren't the Jq a320 captains that promoted themselves to the 330 in Singapore on an hourly rate with a guaranteed minimum 600 hours/ year?

I trust they incur the same wrath your new joiners receive.
Karunch is offline Report Post Reply

Good point!

They are turning widebody airline flying into GA. With the excuse that they are just getting the experience to move on elsewhere.

But guess what. The market adjusts. The sort after airlines lower their COS's in appreciation of what these pilots are doing.

A few do OK but the whole picture changes for everyone else. You end up with, regionally in the case of the JQ Singaporian pilots, a scenario similar to what is happening in Australia.

Perhaps it is these pilots who should be "banned" or cop our professional wrath. The ones who create the true momentum for management to exploit conditions.

[Unregistered User]

The sort after airlines lower their COS's in appreciation of what these pilots are doing.


FFS, It's "sought"……...

[Gnadenburg]

Another good point UU.

[Gnadenburg]

I remember Jetstar pilots saying the same thing 10 years ago about paying for training and endorsements.

[thrustpig]

So if the 320 pay Oz based (JQ) v Sing (3K) based is about the same, why have the management made the 3K (or is it VF Contract) 330 pay so much lower than the same type JQ base?? No prizes for the answer. However, given the history of staff turnover/ wastage at 3K / VF how many 3K / VF 330 contracted guys do management really expect to retain once the magic 500 - 1000 or whatever the Hours On Type box requirement for DEC's at Vietnam, Korean, Air China, SQ etc etc is met?

[oicur12.again]

"But guess what. The market adjusts."

Isnt that what markets do?

Or is capitalism only applicable to other people?

[breakfastburrito]

oicur12.again, we do not have a free market system of capitalism. How can we when the most basic unit of the economy (money) is centrally planned & deliberately debased via the Central Banking system?

If we had a free market system, mistakes would be punished, and companies that made bad choices would be allowed to fail. How many banks have failed as a result of the GFC without bondholder protection? How many companies have been allowed to fail without a bailout for the bondholders? Where is the "market discipline" for the large institutional investors who made grave errors of judgement? The taxpayer has taken the burden of the entire system. Where are the write-off's of bad debts and the haircuts for the bond holders? No, its austerity for the taxpayers & workers, the capitalists are made whole.

In the case of jetstar, they can simply move the jobs offshore, but the workers have no right to strike. Capital is allowed to withdraw, yet labour is not. That is not a free market system.

I would argue to you that we live in a hybrid system central planned/socialism/crony capitalism system. Raw Market forces are reserved for those without political or economic constituency in the halls of central planning.

[ciport]

BFB, so when the system finally fails and we are forced into serfdom to the bohemians all this will seem irrelevant. Or are we already there? So should we not be hoarding food, weapons and fuel rather than silver and gold? It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees

[breakfastburrito]

An increase in the quantity of money or fiduciary media is an indispensable condition of the emergence of a boom. The recurrence of boom periods, followed by periods of depression, is the unavoidable outcome of repeated attempts to lower the gross market rate of interest by means of credit expansion. There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved. Ludwig von Mises; Human Action: A treatise on Economics, Regnery, 1966, pg. 572.

ciport, All the things we discuss here, probably irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. If you look at the collapse of the USSR, it was reasonably orderly, as was the post depression era in the USA. Will we go the full Mad Max civil disorder? I personally assign it a low probability.

[Ndicho Moja]

Thrustpig, you have it in one.

Of the chaps I know of that are considering venturing on to the 3K gig, the raison d'etre, or at least one of them, is so that they can attain the required hours on the 330. In so doing it does at least two things; opens up all sorts of other opportunities that you have suggested and gets them out of the quagmire of the seniority system that may very well hold them back from a wide body command for any foreseeable future, if at all.

Good luck to them.

[KRUSTY 34]

Yeah! Good luck to 'em. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[mcgrath50]

NM,

But the oppurtunities will be gone, as the market will adjust downwards to the new going rate for a 330 captain :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: value our skills guys!

[Jetsbest]

Your associates evidently view 'seniority' as a dirty word while overlooking its protections... :rolleyes:

To me, even as a relatively 'late-starter', seniority itself makes me neither lazy, unmotivated nor unskilled, ( I still have to pass my sims & route checks!) but it usually provides a clear understanding of important factors such as:
a. rostered flying preferences,
b. roster stability,
c. achievability of preferences for days off,
d. family and work/life balance,
e. imminence or otherwise of promotional opportunities,
f. desirability of said promotional opportunities in line with 'd', and even
g. retrenchment order should it, God forbid, be contrived to come to that.

I'm with Mcgrath; the impatient "get out of the rut/jump the queue/get the time up so I can move on" logic precipitates the deterioration of many positions one might aspire to in the future... especially in Oz.

Each to their own, and all the best to those exercising their right to consider these positions. No doubt recent JQ events in particular have added to the sense of urgency some feel. I just hope it's all they wish it to be for the rest of their careers. :sad:

[stan dupp]

Well it would appear a small win has been achieved. Word out, contracts are now on the back burner with recruitment freeze in effect..

I find it ironic that out of the 50 recruits JQ hoped to sign up to this contracts, only 5 fools signed!! It would appear that the thought which was in the back of peoples mind (if I don't take it, someone else will) has finally been buried :ok:

To the 45+ pilots who turned down this contract, well done! You will do the JQ pilot group well with your sign of solidarity! I look forward to flying with you:ok:

[The Kelpie]

Whilst on the face of it, good news I suspect this rumoured backdown is not all it seems. We await confirmation officially from the Unions

Given BB's adamance that there would be no backdown it now seems possible that he has been over-ruled by AJ under the advice of Oldmeadow who has the wider Qantas Group IR agenda to think of and protect.

Oldmeadow will see this as an opportunity to undermine the unity that is growing amongst the airline workers, particularly in the Qantas Group. There is enough bad feeling between QF and Jetstar Pilots which seems in recent times to have been set aside to a great extent in pursuit of common interests. We must not allow Oldmeadow to re-invigorate the rift between the pilot groupsand unions by allowing QF pilots to see the Jetstar guys approaching this on the basis of self interest again.

This issue is an industry issue that needs to be put to bed once and for all!!

Divide and Conquor only works if you can divide!!!

The Qantas Group do not want this thing going to the Federal court as a finding against any of the constituent airlines will thwart the wider Group's ongoing business strategy. Unity is still needed as this issue goes beyond Jetstar and the pilots. A finding in court against an of the group airlines will impact on the way that Jetstar have been employing Cabin Crew also and will spill into the QF Job security issue that Pilots and Engineering 'contractors' should be paid the same as employees!!

There is no room for back room deals - this thing must progress to the courtroom!!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[xjt]

Backed down....more like SLOWED down.....

[Clockwork Doll]

So instead of having 50 FO's on more flexible conditions 600+ pilots will be on them... That's effectively what you have told the company you want! Now when the pilots fail to deliver said flexibility the company will legitimately be able to say they attempted to negotiate and give the pilots what they wanted but it still wasn't enough for them...

[Clockwork Doll]

can we see a copy of the email?

Essentially it says, you said you were willing to negotiate with the company so do it! Now put up or shut up....

[ejectx3]

Why do you have to negotiate? You have a valid EBA? You have no reason to negotiate! That's the AGREEMENT!

[rodchucker]

Beware a Rat, OneStar Exec who approaches bearing gifts, smiling, seeking to be your friend or asking the name of your dog.
They have shown what they are made of and the level of integrity they bring to the table.

This is their screw up, so let them show their wares.

As one wise person said, the level of trust will take a very long time to get back to normal and whilst present incumbents are breathing, this is highly unlikely to ever occur.

Good luck and be careful out there.

[Mstr Caution]

Backdown or back burner!

You guys sure had a win sending all the emails whilst a CASA AOC audit was taking place. Nice timing.

[Clockwork Doll]

Ejectx3, that's the grand irony. The company never asked the pilots to negotiate. They were simply going to put some new people on contract that would accommodate the company's business requirements - which the EBA says that they can do. But the cunning pilots said NO! Don't do that - why don't you come to us and ask us to provide the flexibility you say you need? We can do that! We can negotiate! We will negotiate!

[xjt]

why are people so naive???????...the email says it...how much more clear does it get...quote

[QUOTE]It’s also clear that some of you would strongly prefer for flexibility and mobility to be achieved within the context of an EBA.
Also, a number of you were surprised to learn that discussions have been going on for many years to resolve these issues within the EBA. This has been our desire for a long time and if it were not for AIPA’s actions, we believe we would be in a very different place today./QUOTE].....

there is no f**king issue with the EBA...its flexible enough....

[gutso-blundo]

Just wait for it - they'll sell their next offering by saying "only so much money in the pool for pay & perks - now go sort out amongst yourselves what you LH blokes are willing to trade off for your JQ brethren..."

[The Kelpie]

Jetstar freezes contract hirings to buy peace
Steve Creedy, Aviation writer From: The Australian May 23, 2011 12:00AM


JETSTAR has moved to head off a stoush with its pilots by putting on hold plans to put new hires on permanent part-time contracts.

But it has warned that a decision to freeze new recruitment while it negotiates with pilots may mean growth at the low-cost carrier is deferred.

News of the contracts triggered widespread anger among the low-cost carrier's pilots, prompted legal action by the Australian Federation of Air Pilots and threatened to embroil the Qantas Group in another public battle over industrial relations.

Qantas is already facing industrial action from engineers and long-haul pilots, who are expected to apply to Fair Work Australia early this week for a ballot of members for approval to take industrial action.

Jetstar pilots were incensed by the moves to put new hires on a group contract outside the enterprise agreement that guaranteed employment for just 600 hours instead of the 800-plus Jetstar pilots generally work.

Jetstar management argues the flexibility is essential to continued growth and that it needs to match pilot workload to seasonal traffic and to move pilots around the multinational group. It says it has been trying to get an agreement on the issues for three years.

But pilots viewed the move as a betrayal of the agreement and more than 300 emailed management with their concerns.

In a memo obtained by The Australian, Jetstar Group chief executive Bruce Buchanan and Australia/New Zealand chief David Hall say the airline has decided to freeze Australian recruitment until September 1. It would also withdraw active offers of the new contract and move five first officers who had already accepted the enterprise agreement.

The memo says the company is holding talks with the AFAP and is hopeful it can quickly find a path that solves its business requirements and the desire of the pilot group to employ Australian pilots through a single enterprise agreement and it can lift the freeze earlier than September 1.

"The recruitment freeze may have (an) impact on capacity plans for this year, and there may be some deferral of growth while we work through this process," it says. "We believe our actions are a constructive step towards reaching agreement on flexibility . . .

"To continue to sustainably grow, we need to resolve these issues, otherwise we will be unable to continue the same level of growth."

Freeze AUSTRALIAN recruitment is what the memo says. Nothing about NZ and Jetstar Asia!! It seems that the line training of NZ and Singapore pilots will continue in Australian aircraft as the company does not see the problem here.

Pilots flying Australian aircraft in Australia require an Australian contract!

Also, putting the 5 guys on the EBA and withdrawing other offers technically means they have no case to answer in court since they are seen to have rectified the wrong - FOR NOW!!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

I am assuming that any changes to the EBA will need to be voted on by the membership?

[KRUSTY 34]

Be aware of a possible "Flanking" manuever.

Combat Tactics 101!

[rodchucker]

move five first officers who had already accepted the enterprise agreement.

Kelpie,

Not sure this means put them on the EBA, but accede to your greater wisdom and wider knowledge.

They are probably setting up another base in Mumbai as we speak.

Cheers

[The Kelpie]

Just says move them.

Sorry I read that as move them within Australia which would mean onto the EBA.

Having said that the cadets will prob have more than 500 hours by now and they may get moved back to NZ as they are currently on LWOP from JQ NZ. Although my understanding is that this would be contrary to OM1 which states that Cadets are restricted until 500 hours on type AND 12 months employment and cadets only to be based at the nominated Australian bases.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[BombsGone]

The real question is would management have backed down if they'd gotten 17 signatures on the offered contracts? Or are they just changing tack now their first plan has failed?

[waren9]

Kelpie

You are all over it and exactly right. Good man.

W9.

PS Horserun

Your youthful exuberance and optimistic enthusiasm has yet to be matched by a healthy, well developed scepticism towards your new employer. Give it time.:ok:

[Roger Greendeck]

What about the 45 guys for were offered jobs but turned them down? If the five who signed the contract are rewarded with jobs on the EBA and those who stood fast are rewarded with nothing at all how is that a win?

Are some or all of those 45 union members? If so what can/will be done to support them?

[The Green Goblin]

The five guys who signed up should be cut loose and named and shamed on here.

I had a gut feeling some would put their ambition ahead of the greater good. It's time to hang them out to dry.

P.S - I hope that the court action will continue. There needs to be a decision made to prevent this strategy from continuing. I also hope the loop hole in the EBA is closed in the upcoming negotiations.

P.SS -The position of the union should be EBA or nothing for any Pilot flying VH registered aeroplanes in Australia.

[rodchucker]

Kelpie,

Should have known you were right, so just humour me.

Yet again these tossers change the rules when caught out. The Australian EBA should be renamed the dumping ground for fixing up their mistakes when they have to and/or when it suits them.

When are these deceptions ever going to end.

[gnomie]

These deceptions will continue for as long as the Qantas Group are allowed to get away with them.

QF have very experienced IR consultants (understand, the consultants job is purely IR not the overall well being of QF) and for the moment very deep pockets.

The only way to stop this is by getting this to the Federal Court, QF know that to.

This latest move by BB is just another smoke and mirrors tactic.

[HF3000]

flex·i·ble adj
1. a. Capable of being bent or flexed; pliable.
b. Capable of being bent repeatedly without injury or damage.
2. Susceptible to influence or persuasion; tractable.
3. Responsive to change; adaptable: a flexible schedule.

Source: www.thefreedictionary.com (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?word=Flexibility)

flex·i·ble adj
I can't get enough pilots for my bottom of the barrel off-shore bases because of the extraordinarily poor terms and conditions. I need my Australian pilots to be forced against their will to relocate to my offshore bases and accept the extraordinarily poor terms and conditions because I have imprisoned them by debt and contractural obligation so if they don't accept it I will sue them and bankrupt them. This is what I mean by a flexible workforce.

Source: The secret diary of BB

So, let's negotiate some flexibility into that EBA shall we?

[Biatch]

Name and shame the 5..... as much as i don't want to say it.... it sure as hell is how i feel....

[The Kelpie]

Flexible- the ability to bend, assume the position and be buggerred to hell!

Context: we require all our pilots to be flexible.

Lol

The kelpie

[Mr. Hat]

Name and shame? Does that apply to those that didn't email in support?

[Oxidant]

Name and shame the 5..... as much as i don't want to say it.... it sure as hell is how i feel....

Name and shame? Does that apply to those that didn't email in support?

Hmmm, not sure where you are going here.......

However, all those who did give their support, did so with their real names....

(Unity, was I thought the name of the game, not division)

[Karunch]

Name & shame- how about the Jq Capts undermining offshore 330 salaries in Singapore. Happy to name them (or just make it difficult for them to move on).

[Clockwork Doll]

Name and Shame? You try to convince the public that you are a 'professional' group of individuals and then go on to talk about naming and shaming people who don't agree with you. Grow up and start behaving like adults!!!

[Much Ado]

Indeed...any move towards naming and shaming and I will personally delete EVERY thread related to JQ...and any new thread that is started.

Am I being fairly clear?

Much Ado

[Mr. Hat]

Yep what I was saying is their is no point to the name shame. Should have explained better.

[JustJoinedToSearch]

Hold on a second, Roger Greendeck made an excellent point that I think has been overlooked.

How can we expect unity if those that do the right thing (reject the pathetic contract) are left stuck in GA whilst those that are causing the problem are rewarded with EBA jobs?

Onestar will in all probability stop recruiting untill they can find another way to evade Aus IR law, leaving the guys doing the right thing having to continue to turn offers down and wait it out for what, eternity?

[HF3000]

Those who rejected the offer will be rewarded by a better one in due course. If they'd all accepted it, they'd be stuck with it. Well done troops, it ain't over but it's a step in the right direction for a change.

The five who accepted were very foolish, and this time they were lucky. Hopefully the education will continue and we'll gradually improve the unity day by day. No anger at each other folks, remember who the real enemy is.

[The Green Goblin]

Hold on a second, Roger Greendeck made an excellent point that I think has been overlooked.

How can we expect unity if those that do the right thing (reject the pathetic contract) are left stuck in GA whilst those that are causing the problem are rewarded with EBA jobs?

I agree.

Don't worry though, their names will be on the seniority list and will be the only chunk of 5 hired in recent months, until at least September.

Something tells me they won't have anyone to have a beer with after work.

[Clockwork Doll]

Don't worry though, their names will be on the seniority list and will be the only chunk of 5 hired in recent months, until at least September.

Something tells me they won't have anyone to have a beer with after work.

Fortunately not everyone is as ignorant and narrow minded as you Green Goblin. Such an attitude is appalling and it is you and your like minded bullies who need to be ashamed.

[The Green Goblin]

Quote:
Don't worry though, their names will be on the seniority list and will be the only chunk of 5 hired in recent months, until at least September.

Something tells me they won't have anyone to have a beer with after work.
Fortunately not everyone is as ignorant and narrow minded as you Green Goblin. Such an attitude is appalling and it is you and your like minded bullies who need to be ashamed.

Yep, the whole Pilot group will know you were one of the ones who tried to undermine the EBA.

Now after some have stuck their neck out, probably costing themselves career wise (c&t) to retain their rightful conditions, you'll be sitting smugly at home.

The 5 that signed should be banished back to GA to think about their actions.

[Clockwork Doll]

The 5 that signed should be banished back to GA to think about their actions.

I was unaware that Australia is no longer a free country where people can not make personal career choices without being vilified by the likes of you Green Goblin. Grow up!

[The Green Goblin]

Quote:
The 5 that signed should be banished back to GA to think about their actions.
I was unaware that Australia is no longer a free country where people can not make personal career choices without being vilified by the likes of you Green Goblin. Grow up!

And those personal career choices affect everyone else.

[BombsGone]

Stop bickering please. The real point is that only 5 people felt that the contract offered a significant improvement on their current options. i have spoken to one applicant who has better options than the offered contract, not an industrial relations tactic just a fact. The market has spoken. Now could we leave the thread until something new and useful is posted.

[T80]

What a Circus !!!
Yep totally agree the ones who turned this down and saw it for what it was worth get screwed.
They will only have to wait until after September now sheesh :(
Would of been good to see nobody accept the contract but 5 is pretty low.
Real slap in the face for Jetstar wanting 50 odd positions filled :p