Operation Crossbow Sunday 15th May 2100

[tezzer]

Looks like an interesting documentary to be shown on the role of Photogs in the Second World bout of unpleasantness.

BBC News - Operation Crossbow: How 3D glasses defeated Hitler (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13359064)

[500N]

Pity it's not o over here, I wouldn't mind watching that.

I grew up being told what it was like living with V1's flying across London and parents watching them to see if they had to run to the shelter or not.

[GeeRam]

I grew up being told what it was like living with V1's flying across London and parents watching them to see if they had to run to the shelter or not.

Last month I was up in Scotland visiting my Mums older sister who’s now in a care home, and she was telling me about her near miss with a V1. She was almost on the receiving end of the last V1 to land in West London in March ’45.
She had not long started work at the munitions factory at the end of the road they lived in (about 2 miles east of RAF Northolt) and was on her way to work with her friend who lived across the road, and were almost at the factory when the V1 came over and cut out. She said it looked as if it was coming straight for them, and she remembers just freezing and not moving, whereas her friend crouched down and turned away from it as it was going to hit. My aunt said she can still vividly remember the feeling of the blast wave blowing her hair back as she just stood there rooted to the spot. Ironically, she was completely unscathed, whereas her friend who was next to her crouching down facing the other way, took a nasty shrapnel hit in her buttock….which still put my aunt into fits of laughter all the years later when recounting the story :p
As a side story, if that V1 had impacted about 300 yards further south on the other side of the A40 it would have landed in the middle of the German/Italian POW camp that was there.

[Whenurhappy]

Detecting these weapons and attacking the sites was only one aspect of the counter-air effort. Through the DOUBLECROSS system run out of St Jame's Palace by John Masterman, German agents that had been 'turned' falsely reported back to their German handlers the fall of shot of both V1s and V2s. The Luftwaffe changed the MPI to 'Sarf London', believing that the V1s, aimed at Charing Cross, were falling long, in spite of tracking devices on some F103s correctly showing the POI. This resulted in more imapcts on the likes of Lewisham etc, rather than in central London. Additionally, there was a IO campaign through both the press and BBC radio to falsely indicate where devices had impacted - and this presented both parties a real dilemma. The 'medja' resented having to tell porkies, in spite of wartime censorship, as they knew that Londoners would quickly realise that radio and newspapers were no more than propaganda organs.

The Luftwaffe also tried air-launched V1s to get around this supposed inaccuracy; indeed one managed to get as far as Birmingham (indeed about 1500 - 15% - of all V1s directed at the UK). Monitoring Enigma traffic revealed that the Germans trusted 'their agents but assumed that tracking devices were working incorrectly; indeed were 'stolen' by radio deception. Read 'Most Secret' by R V Jones; 'Official History of M15' by Chris Andrew. Masterman published a summary of DOUBLECROSS in the early 1970s (before ENIGMA was declassified) and it is chilling reading of the disposal of a significant number of German agents in the UK when they ceased to useful to the UK war effort (ie executed in the moat of the Tower of London, amongst other places).

[500N]

Whenurhappy

My grand mother used to tell me exactly that story. It's interesting hearing it from someone else in more detail.

GeeRam
My mother used to live in Croydon and they used to watch the V1's and wait to see where and whether the engine started coughing and spluttering before deciding to run.
My mother and her brothers and sisters would be up the fruit trees in the garden picking the fruit (trying to be self sufficient in time of war) and talking about "into fits of laughter all the years later when recounting the story", when my mother and grand mother used to tell the story, it was hard to believe that my mother was the fastest from the top of the cherry tree to the air raid shelter.
They said the worst aspect of course was when one impacted close to them, finding out who had been killed.

Didn't the RAF also try flying alongside the V1's and using the wing tips to "tip" the V1 off balance so it crashed in the countryside ?

Talking about Shrapnel, my Grand mother and the other daughter (my mum's sister) were walking up the tree lined street back home when a Stuka came down low and shot them up. My grand mother said she lay flat on top of my aunt and the bullets passed either side of them. She said she could see the pilot's face he was that close. What the pilot didn't know what that an AA gun was located on the hill on the Golf Course and he flew right ad got shot down over it as someone called her later to say we got him.

Can't remember the street name but it will come to me and I'll add it then.

Edit - They were shot up on Upfield Avenue, off Addiscombe Road and the AA gun was located on Lloyd Park / Shirley Park Golf Club (according to Google).

What's interesting, once when visiting my Aunt, my mother could still tell me which houses in neighbouring streets were hit by bombs or V1's.

[sisemen]

15th May 2100

Full marks to the BBC for programming so far in advance - trouble is I ain't got a recorder that goes that far. :}

[mrmrsmith2]

Ah R.I.C.s and the smell of meths in the morning......... for the folk that remember type 11's and 12's he he :rolleyes:. ex Jag and harrier boys may.........

[minigundiplomat]

A documentary about George Peppard? Why?

[500N]

minigun

What do you mean ?

[Really annoyed]

Who is George Peppard?

[Shack37]

15th May 2100
Full marks to the BBC for programming so far in advance - trouble is I ain't got a recorder that goes that far. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

Sisemen, must confess to having the same first reaction BUT just in case you're not tongue in cheek, it's 2100 hours:ouch:

[500N]

" Who is George Peppard? "

An actor. Was in Breakfast at Tiffany's then went downhill from there to the Colonel in the A Team :rolleyes: LOL

[chiglet]

Also Leutnant Stachel in the Blue Max :ok:

[minigundiplomat]

Poor joke!

He was in the film version of Operation Crossbow, and decided to leave Sophia Loren alive (as you would - well, back then anyway).Unfortunately, the old bat who owned the hotel shot her...

[MAINJAFAD]

Yes, the film 'Operation Crossbow', the first half of which was almost spot on as regards what actually happened :ok: and there was the second half that George was in, which wasn't :ugh::ugh::ugh:.

[Wander00]

Have not seen a mention of Constance Babington-Smith who I think was the first PI to identify a V1 launch site from recce photos. Used to see her around Cambridge in the early 70s.

[Whenurhappy]

Constance Babington-Smith's book 'Evidence in Camera' is a superb piece of work. I bought a dog-eared copy many. many years ago from the 'Withdrawn' desk at the Taupo Public Library in New Zealand. I had it for years. Unfortunately it vanished in one of my frequent moves (possibly from Leeming to, err, hmm, Hereford)*. I have a feeling that I might have loaned it to someone. The book was published long before Enigma was declassified, so the mapping of Occupied Europe wasn't entirely random.

If anyone has a copy of that book that they have no future use for, please PM me.

* Err, no, not that Hereford. The old one, now the current one, oh, I mean what was RAF Credenhill - but isn't that where 'Them' are, oh yes, but before then...just

[navibrator]

GeeRam

You sure it wasn't a V2? The last V1 sites to target the UK were over run in Oct 1944. After that they only hit mainland european targets. The V2 didn't stop until about Mar 45.

[MAINJAFAD]

Last V-2s did land in London Area in late March 45, one of them around that time nearly wasted my mother and her family. V-1s were still hitting the UK after the French sites were overrun as they were air launched from He-111s

[MAINJAFAD]

Last V-1 strike on the UK was on 29 March 1945, when an air launched weapon impacted in Hertfordshire, this being the last air attack on the UK by a hostile power.

Last V-2 Stirke on the UK was on 27 March 1945 when two missiles landed in London and resulted in the last British death from direct air attack by a hostile power.

[GeeRam]

GeeRam

You sure it wasn't a V2? The last V1 sites to target the UK were over run in Oct 1944. After that they only hit mainland european targets. The V2 didn't stop until about Mar 45.

Nope, V1.

According to the Civil Defence file records, it was a V1 launched from Holland (I guess it could have been an air launched from near Holland?)
Date was March 14th 1945. It was last V weapon to hit West London, hitting near the Ordnance Dept in Long Drive, Greenford, killing 14, seriously wounding 11 and with a further 78 slightly injured.
(my Mum and her family lived at No.20 Long Drive at the time)

[MAINJAFAD]

More likely launched over the North Sea off the coast of Norfolk or Suffolk rather than over Holland.

[November4]

Last V-2 Strike on the UK was on 27 March 1945 when two missiles landed in London and resulted in the last British death from direct air attack by a hostile power.

According to The Blitz - Then and Now Vol 3

27 March 1945 - The Stepney V2 - the penultimate to land on Britain, with the last falling at Orpington at 1645 hours the same day - fell at Hughes Mansions at 0721, demolishing 2 five-storey blocks of flats and badly damaging a third. Casualties were initially put at 59 killed and 43 SI. 48 slightly hurt and an unknown number missing. But by April 1 this was revised to 131 killed, 40SI and 48 slightly hurt and 2 believed missing: the final figures gave the number killed as 134

From the same source

On the 29th the last two V1s landed at Datchworth, Herts and Iwade, Kent. Thereafter there was no further enemy air activity against the UK.

[November4]

Date was March 14th 1945. It was last V weapon to hit West London, hitting near the Ordnance Dept in Long Drive, Greenford, killing 14, seriously wounding 11 and with a further 78 slightly injured.
(my Mum and her family lived at No.20 Long Drive at the time)

All that "The Blitz - Then and Now Vol 3" says about that night is

A few flying bombs were reported during the night of the 8/9th, on the 14th and again by night on the 15/16th, with operations by three V1s and 18 manned aircraft on the night of 17/18th.

No other details given.

[Sven Sixtoo]

27 Mar 1945

130 plus killed by a ballistic missile attack.


Kind of puts 7/7/05 into context, no?

With no disrespect - every death is a tragedy

Iain

[MAINJAFAD]

November4, any details on a V-2 strike in the Bermondsey area on 26 March 45 (thats the one that nearly got my mum), hit a convent, according to what my Nan told me.

[GeeRam]

All that "The Blitz - Then and Now Vol 3" says about that night is


Quote:
A few flying bombs were reported during the night of the 8/9th, on the 14th and again by night on the 15/16th, with operations by three V1s and 18 manned aircraft on the night of 17/18th.

No other details given.

Nov4,

Here's another eyewitness account of that last West London V1 hit.

BBC - WW2 People's War - V1 on Greenford (http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/55/a2117855.shtml)

Just as a post note, 3 of the RAOC and one civilian casulty of this V1 raid are buried in the same cemetary in Greenford that my father is in.

[November4]

November4, any details on a V-2 strike in the Bermondsey area on 26 March 45 (thats the one that nearly got my mum), hit a convent, according to what my Nan told me.

Afraid no details about that date other than

Big Ben Incidents March 1945

No 1103 26/0420 Bermondsey

I assume 26/0420 is the date and time of the incident.

The book gives the following for March 1945

There were reports of V2 rockets on every day of the month up to and including the 27th, with a serious incident occurring during the night of the 5/6th (incident No 933) at West Ham where 31 people were killed and 8 SI. Other serious incidents were No 947 at Deptford on the6/7th (52 fatalities, 32 badly injured); No 951 at Poplar on the 7th (25 dead , 40 SI), No 96 at Finsbury on the 8/th (110 killed and 123 SI), No 1027 at Leyton on the 16th (23 killed and 18 SI), No 1066 at Heston on the 21st (33 killed and 98 SI), No 1099 at Enfield during the night of 25/26th (7 killed, 100 SI) and 1114 at Stepney on the 27th when 134 people were killed and 49 SI.

I make that 415 killed and 468 SI in those incidents alone.

[Self Loading Freight]

There are second hand copies of Evidence in Camera on the website of the great South American river, for around a fiver a pop - have nabbed one for the library, so thanks for the lead.

Constance Babington-Smith was interviewed for The Secret War, the 1977 BBC documentary series about all that sort of thing, and was rather wonderful Talked about poaching on other PI's patches, and how browned off recc pilots were if you sent them over to snap what looked like AA emplacements. But you did it anyway.

There's a series that deserves a DVD re-issue, William Wollard staring off-screen and all. It's around on the naughtynet.

[MAINJAFAD]

The Secret War was released on video in 1988 and is still a classic, the only stuff not really covered in depth was Ultra, as a lot of the story had not been declassified.

The Secret War Ep 3 - Terror Weapons

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[Hipper]

Unfortunately Constance Babbington Smith died in 2000. Here's an obituary:

Obituary: Constance Babington Smith | World news | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/2000/aug/12/guardianobituaries)

She seemed a nice lady and was very helpful when I was in contact with her.

I hope this is a good programme but I don't see what is new about it. The Penemunde photos have been available for years and so have the stereoscopes to look at them in 3D.

In the 1980s and 90s I was researching WW2 German warships and there were plenty of Photo Reconnaisance Unit pictures of them too. To look at them through a stereoscope was excellent - the masts would come up and poke you in the eye!

These PRU aerial photos can be found scattered in many places, including the National Archives at Kew where the full story of the PRU is recorded, along with I believe the complete set of Interpretation Reports of these photo sorties. 'Evidence in Camera' was the name of the PRU's in-house magazine that showed the more interesting photos).

The Photographs they refer to in the programme were originally held at Keele University. Keele did not have the negatives (I was told that as they were made of unstable nitrate film they were destroyed, but I suspect JARIC at RAF Brampton has some and the U.S. National Archives may also have more - I bought photos from both these places). Keele copied the photos to microfilm and it was from this that you could study them and buy copies. This is the most complete collection and is now at the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Scotland. Other sources to fill any gaps include the two mentioned above plus the RAF Museum and the Imperial War Museum.

I wish the Beeb, or someone else, would tell the full story of the WW2 PRU, from Sidney Cotton onwards. It's a great story but only seems to be told in scraps like this programme.

[November4]

My grandmother lived in Katherine Road, East Ham, and vividly remember the day a V2 landed in the next street. She used to take her 2 children (my mother and uncle) and sleep in the Anderson shelter in the garden. My grandfather was in the Royal Navy and at the time in the Indian Ocean. In 2003 when she was 93, I sat her down in front of a video camera ….

VJOzzQkT56I

From The Blitz - Then and Now Vol 3

A rocket (big Ben 22) fell to earth at it’s re-entry speed of around 2,500 mph and exploded in Green Street, East Ham, just after 0600. Being a shopping street and empty at that time of the morning, casualties were lighter than they might have otherwise been with seven fatalities. This V2 was fired by Major Schultz’s Sonderunternehmen Walcheren – their parting shot – before pulling back later in the day in the face of the prospect of having their escape route cut off for this was the day of Market Garden.

Green Street was also hit by 2 flying bombs, a parachute mine and several HE bombs through the war.

2 years after filming this, my grandmother died aged 95 – I have the video to make sure her memories are not changed by my retelling. Just wish I had done the same thing with my grandfather but he had died 10 years earlier.

[Hipper]

My mother was Dutch and in Holland during the war. At the time of the V2 launchings she was living in Den Haag.

She had a scar on her forehead which she told us young boys was from a V2 rocket. I assumed the rocket had come down and hit her on the head!

In fact it had been launched at night and her and her then husband had heard it and could also hear that it had failed. She was in the process of diving under the bed when it exploded 200 metres up the road. A door frame broke away and hit her on her head.

V2ROCKET.COM - Den Haag, Wassenaar, Hoek van Holland (http://www.v2rocket.com/start/deployment/denhaag.html)

[green granite]

Oh dear, nothing like twisting the facts and airbrushing out people like Professor RV Jones and Constance Babbington -Smith et al, and quite how the V1 whose launch ramps were pointed at London could have stopped the invasion of Normandy god only knows.

[JFZ90]

quite how the V1 whose launch ramps were pointed at London could have stopped the invasion of Normandy god only knows.

...hmm - "could have hit troop ships" was one quote. Quite a feat for a basically unguided weapon.

That aside it I thought it was a good watchable programme.

[aviate1138]

Spot on Green Granite.....
I thought the BBC did a very average job with this documentary and to mention Lord Cherwell and avoid any mention of Dr R V Jones, later Prof.... [What would have happened if R V Jones had not existed?] Avoiding any mention of Constance Babington-Smith was a big error too.
Nice to see some of the pilots still around but no real mention of the many PR types who didn't make it back, often due to extremely hazardous and repetitive low level oblique photo flights. Real gutsy stuff IMHO.

As a kid I watched a V-1 glide towards our house [the gyro device couldn't have been working], hit a large chestnut tree in our garden and blow up three houses down the street and all our leaded light windows were bowed in as a result of the blast. The Avenue Sunbury on Thames. Our next door neighbour was a relative of Constance B-S.

I hope a book is produced with some of those 3d views included.

[robin]

Fascinating bit about smuggling out the Wild Stereographs. I was using later models of these in the 1970s and never got tired of the views!! OK I did really

[Tankertrashnav]

...hmm - "could have hit troop ships" was one quote. Quite a feat for a basically unguided weapon.




I did in fact once meet a merchant seaman who was sunk by a V1. In late 1944/early 1945 he was on board a cargo vessel which was transhipping its cargo onto barges in Antwerp harbour. At that time the Germans had turned their attention to targets on the European mainland, including Antwerp. The barge alongside this chap's ship received a direct hit from the V1 and basically disintegrated, whilst the cargo ship's hull was breached and it sank in relatively shallow water. My man said he didn't even get his feet wet, so it hardly counted!

Enjoyed the programme. I liked the American guy and was interested to see the Spitfire in USAAF markings.

[jamesdevice]

-zap- removed as not relevant to the way the thread developed
JD

[MAINJAFAD]

Oh dear, nothing like twisting the facts and airbrushing out people like Professor RV Jones and Constance Babbington -Smith et al, and quite how the V1 whose launch ramps were pointed at London could have stopped the invasion of Normandy god only knows.

Leaving RV Jones and Babbington Smith out was a mistake, but the map shown on the programme maded from the photos quite clearly showed that quite a number of the original 90+ V-1 launching ramps were aligned on the South coast ports, which would have had an effect on the invasion had the V-1 attacks started before D-Day. Forgot the role of the Mossies as well.

[Royalistflyer]

500N said: Didn't the RAF also try flying alongside the V1's and using the wing tips to "tip" the V1 off balance so it crashed in the countryside ?


A school friend of mine's father was killed at the end of WW II flying a Spitfire - trying to tip the wing of a flying bomb - accidentally collided with it.

[Trim Stab]

The programme made great store of the mysterious "ski sites", but then revealed rather lamely that they were to "store V1s".

Anybody know why they were ski shaped? The best I can think of was they were partly built a curved railway that carried the missiles to the launch ramp.

[hval]

@ Trim Stab,

Anybody know why they were ski shaped?

I suspect the primary reason for the curved shape was for reduction of blast damage in case of Allied bombing or a V1 failure on ramp. A possible secondary, though minor, reason would be the reduction in wind tunnel effect through the store. This would make working conditions slightly better.

Hval

[aviate1138]

A really good read is....

Most Secret War by R.V.Jones ISBN 978-0-141-04282-4 Penguin Military History

The hut was non magnetic and vital to setting the bomb's heading correctly. RVJ has lots on V-1 and V-2 intelligence etc.

He mentions Mosquito PR almost as often as Spitfire PR sorties.

The man was a genius [with a wicked sense of humour].

[PPRuNeUser0139]

A really good read is....
Most Secret War by R.V.Jones ISBN 978-0-141-04282-4 Penguin Military History

Second that..:ok:

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Maybe it's just me, but I didn't watch the programme with the impression that RV Jones and Babbington Smith had been 'airbrushed out'; simply that people involved in the story who were still alive were interviewed. That said, I agree that their inclusion would have provided a fuller account.

Still, a good hour of TV.

Duncs:ok:

[November4]

Very disappointed in the programme to be honest. Not as much seemed to be made of the 3D maps that the trailers implied. For me, it went down hill when the commentator said that "Medmenham was 60 kilometres from London" and referred to the photos being taken from 9000m or 40m....:mad:

I watched the The Secret War as posted in #30 before seeing the programme last night and like some others was surprised that no mention was made of Prof Jones.

An average programme made to try and impress with the 3D graphics for the computer / X-box generation.

[Whenurhappy]

I know that history is often re-written as new material comes to light, but I think the BBC programme got the sequences of events wrong when the programme described the 'discovery' of Peenemunde in 1943. Unfortunately as I am not in the UK I can't check with I-Player. Through a variety of HUMINT and other sources, SIS (and through Dr Jones), the Air Staff, were aware that something was going on at Peenemunde before the PRU Spitfire happend to take photographs of the airfield 'on spec', as claimed last night. Again, Jones' book (op cit) pp 332-348 describes his version of the sequence of events, stating that the first tasked PRU sortie took place on 22 Apr 43, by which time there were very strong suspiscions that something was going on there.

This was after Duncan Sandys was appointed to lead the investigation of the NAZI missile programme. Jones also refers to the misidentification of the V-1 facilites as 'sewage sludge pumps' - which was referred to in the programme, but attributed to the post-war volunteers now working in Edinburgh. Certainly, to me the three circular features do look like secondary sedimentation and aeration tanks (demonstrating my detailed knowledge of such things!). Perhaps it was not by chance that post war, Duncan Sandys became so obsessed with an All Missile Air Force, resulting in his report and massive cut-backs in aircraft development from - and reduction of the RAF - from 1958 onwards.

One thing I do not like in these sorts of programmes and modern 'time team' type recreations is the pretend ignorance and pretend discoveries of the present-day participants. The ' look, I think we've found a V1 site' when they are looking at a PRU summary of a...V1 site.

[Trim Stab]

The hut was non magnetic and vital to setting the bomb's heading correctly


I once read somewhere that they used to modify the magnetic field of the V1 by bashing it with a lump-hammer.

[hval]

@Trim Stab

I once read somewhere that they used to modify the magnetic field of the V1 by bashing it with a lump-hammer.

A mallet was used.

[8-15fromOdium]

And who was that beared USAF 'Colonel'. Looked rather young to me and a bit of a Walt.


Lt Col Ehlers (http://www.au.af.mil/au/aul/school/saass/ehlers.pdf), not a Walt, he has written a good book on the use of Air Intelligence during WW2.

[hval]

@ aviate1138

The hut was non magnetic and vital to setting the bomb's heading correctly.

I assume that you are talking about a separate building to the "on their side skis" structures. These ski structures would not allow you to align the compass due to the fact they comprised a lot of steel reinforced concrete. The V1's would have to be taken outside, and well away from any steel to align them. Once the V1 had been hit sufficiently to align its magnetic field they would have to be used fairly quickly before the magnetic fields in the steel & iron of the V1 changed again.

Wooden mallets were used for a couple of reasons; no sparks and also less likely to fracture or deform the V1 casing.

[Whenurhappy]

Thanks - removed reference to 'Walt' from my post.

[aviate1138]

Whenurhapppy.....

"Perhaps it was not by chance that post war, Duncan Sandys became so obsessed with an All Missile Air Force, resulting in his report and massive cut-backs in aircraft development from - and reduction of the RAF - from 1958 onwards."

Aviate muses

Perhaps it was not by chance that during the war, Duncan Sandys got his job because he had married Churchill's daughter, Diana?

He was also famous for saying the missile menace for London was over and I think the very next day the first V-2 fell on Chiswick!

How is it so many dumb politicians manage to get such top jobs?????? :rolleyes:

[SirToppamHat]

About to be shown again now on BBC HD.

Also here on iPlayer:

Op CROSSBOW On BBC iPlayer (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b011cr8f/Operation_Crossbow/)

Living at Medmenham now I thought it very interesting.

STH

[Rakshasa]

Bit suprised at the comments on here re: Constance Babbington-Smith as she was mentioned several times that I saw.

Bit disappointing they didn't give any screen time to the PR Mossies but then there's not exactly an airworthy one handy....

[Dan Winterland]

An alternative method of launching the V1 from land.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb73/dbchippy/Ludlow99-225.jpg

[aviate1138]

Sorry to be pedantic Rakshasa but there is not one mention of Constance Babbington-Smith in the recent BBC 'OPERATION CROSSBOW" Documentary.
In all the 59:02 minutes - not one hint of Constance B-S. Dr R.V. Jones

Plenty of footage in the 1988 "Secret War" Episode 3, along with the amazing R.V.Jones.

BTW Peenemünde was already known about from the 'Oslo Report' in 1939! Not some PR pilot with some spare emulsion available.

RV Jones Chapter 38 MOST SECRET WAR page 332 paperback edition

The 1988 BBC "Secret War" Ep 3 was so much better researched IMHO.

[oldspook]

R V Jones was Prof of Physics (Natural Philosophy in nu-speak) at Aberdeen Uni post-war. Met him several times when I was at said establishment - lovely chap - and he was a very strong supporter of both the Uni Air Squadron and the URNU there in the 70s. And as a previous poster has intimated had a wicked sense of humour - he gave an annual lecture on practical jokes which was one of the highlights of the academic year (it was perhaps just meant to be a Physics lecture).

[Ascot 5999]

I visited La Coupole (Wizernes), not far from Calais, a few years ago and would strongly recommend the trip. It is an amazing feat of engineering, despite it's death dealing purpose. But a terrible crime that it was built by slave labour and hundreds died during it's construction. Next time you're buying cheap booze across the "moat", vsit the place.

The slave labour survivor's piece in the Op Crossbow programme was very moving. And we think animals are cruel!

[eMACaRe]

Maybe I'm being a tad cynical, but I got the impression that the programme was made by an independant company, with a view of selling it to the Americans viewing public, illustrating how it was that it was their PR that found the V1/V2 sites. Having said that, it was an interesting one hour's viewing, although as stated earlier, it was a pity that the early days of PR by Cotton, Longbottom and Heston were not touched upon, in the development of the PR system...

[Whenurhappy]

Dan Winterland,

That looks like some post-war US program - what is it?

WP

I agree with the previous poster - it did have a bit of US gloss on it although it was interesting to hear and see of US PR exploits in USAAF marked Spitfires. And that wheels-up landing. Ouch!

[Dan Winterland]

I know nothing about it - except that it's at the French Air Force test centre at Istres Le Tube. I don't know who built the launch system or if it was used. To me it looks like a German solution to a problem. I suspect it was a response to the launch sites being bombed or over-run. All it would need is a bit of straight railway line to work. If you look, there are big rocket motors at the back, smaller retro rocket motors at the front - and the wings are obviously for stopping the trolley from getting airborne along with the V1. It's also fairly aerodynamic so it looks like it was supposed to get to launch speed.

I suppose I could have learned more if I had stopped at read the plaque - but I was in a vehicle full of thirsty aircrew on a vital mission to the pub - and I was taking a bit (lot!) of banter about being a spotter having got my camera out to take a picture of something aviation related.

[Whenurhappy]

Dan W - very interesting. I should have taken the time to do some analysis of the image!


The latest copy of the USAF 'Air Power History' has an article on the US guided missile programme during WWII - they reversed-engineered V1s and planned to deploy 500 missile per day against Germany. The US developed the JB-10 as a follow-on to the V1, and it appeared to have RATO/JATO launch assistance, similar, perhaps, to the Frog photo.

It was clear that the US also planeed to use both V1s and V2s agaist Japan; perhaps it was no coincidence that Werner von Braun, 'captured' at Oberammergau (site of current NATO School - and a former Messerschitt Desgin Buro) - was rapidly shipped back to the States, along with 500 technicians, to start work without delay. The US also 'forgot' about possible War Crimes charges agaisnt Von Braun and his gang of NAZI ideologues.

WP

[Molemot]

I found this latest programme entertaining, at least...but I wish that, in a programme supposedly devoted to accurate photography, they hadn't indulged in the arty farty defocussing of the images towards the outside of the screen. Only the centre bit was properly visible in many shots...

I also waited in vain for a mention of Constance Babbington-Smith, Prof. Jones and others. Some of the 3D reconstructions were interesting, but you needed a pause function to see them in detail. As for Von Braun.... I've always considered him to have been a bit like the Vicar of Bray, serving whatever master came along. As long as they would enable him to fulfill his own ambition - to put a man on the moon. Nazis, Americans, all the same to him...it was the money for the rockets that he wanted!

[robin]

As for Von Braun.... I've always considered him to have been a bit like the Vicar of Bray, serving whatever master came along. As long as they would enable him to fulfill his own ambition - to put a man on the moon. Nazis, Americans, all the same to him...it was the money for the rockets that he wanted!

I read somewhere his motto was something like

"We aim for the stars. But sometimes we hit London"

[teeteringhead]

"We aim for the stars. But sometimes we hit London" ...a bit of graffiti IIRC on the London Tube - circa 1960-ish. (at which time - scarily - the Blitz was about the same distance in the past as Gulf War I is now :eek:)

There was a (fairly rubbish) film about W v B called "I Aim at the Stars", and some luvvable cockney wag had scrawled underneath on the poster "... but sometimes I hit London".

And in early Sputnik days, 'twas always said: "It's not that the Russians are better than the Americans, but the Russians' Germans are better than the Americans' Germans"

[Whenurhappy]

Strangely enough, I have a presentation that I use in my current appointment with pictures of Werhner Von Braun and of the A4 (=V2) and the Saturn V. I will have to add that quote!

Some might find that odd, the the few native English speakers will have a jolly good chuckle, although not so some 66 years ago...

[TEEEJ]

Excellent programme. Well done all! Repeated tonight at 23:20 on BBC2.

TJ

[jindabyne]

As an ex-PI , I too enjoyed the programme.

[Brewster Buffalo]

..the Air Staff, were aware that something was going on at Peenemunde.. I think one of the test launches went wrong and the rocket ended up in Sweden and what was left was sent to the UK for analysis.

[SirToppamHat]

And for those interested in what happened to RAF Danesfield, Danesfield House is now a Hotel:

Danesfield House Hotel (http://www.danesfieldhouse.co.uk/)

Genuinely not an advertising attempt, apols if breaking the rules. The History page is relevant and they are aware of their past - I believe there are quite a few photos in and around the place for those who are interested.

A bit more of that Spitfire fly-past here:

Danesfield Flypast

STH

[MAINJAFAD]

BBC's 'The Secret War' Series was made in the mid-to-late 1970's (1977 or 78, if memory serves), and was first released on VHS in 1988. R V Jones's book was published well after the series was boardcast (along with quite a good BBC book covering the subject with the same name), and it is one of the reasons Jones's book is called 'Most Secret War', as the BBC beat him in using it. The other title he would have liked to have used had also already been taken by Alfred Price's excellent histroy of Electronic Warfare, 'Instruments of Darkness'.

[teeteringhead]

And of course the Russians pretty much developed their V2s into SCUDs

[500N]

A slight thread drift but to do with WWII and jets.

Nazi Germany could have been crushed 'in 3 years' if RAF hadn't rejected first jet fighter | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1387958/Nazi-Germany-crushed-3-years-RAF-hadnt-rejected-jet-fighter.html)

Anyone know anymore or has it all been run before and is just trying to push the book coming out ?

[MAINJAFAD]

The V-2 that landed in Sweden,happened on the same day as the V-1 attacks on London started. That weapon actually caused the British to invest in a totally ineffective radio jammer counter measure against the V-2, because when we got the bits from Sweden, we found a radio command guidance system fitted to it (the standard V-2 used an inertial system) . The reason the Swedish round didn't use the normal guidance fit was because it was being used to test the command guidance system for the Wasserfall SAM.

[Self Loading Freight]

I'm quite fascinated by Dr R V Jones, and would dearly like to read a biography - there must be so much worth knowing. Some quite trivial - in Secret War, he's filmed wearing two watches, but nobody I've spoken to knows why.

Wikipedia says his papers are in the library of Churchill College, Cambridge, so there's a job for someone.

I did have the immense honour of meeting Ralph Benjamin, GCHQ's chief scientist from 1971 to 1982, recently, and he knew and worked with "Reggie Jones". According to sources familiar with the man, he was regarded as perhaps being a bit too ready to assume credit for work that could perhaps be regarded as more of a team effort, but that perception is hardly unknown in that or other lines of business. Especially when someone has achieved a degree of fame.

The book Most Secret War came about because as he neared retirement at Aberdeen, he realised that he was going to lose his grace-and-favour house and, given that the BBC and others were already uncorking the genie, decided to write himself somewhere worth retiring to. I'm glad he did; it's an invaluable record of events.

Can also highly recommend Reflections On Intelligence, the book he wrote as a follow-up to Most Secret War. It's more a collection of papers and addenda, on his post-war experiences, on the various aspects of operational intelligence, things he learned as a result of correspondence after MSW was published, and a detailed account of how he discovered the author of the Oslo Report post-war. That alone is worth the (by now pricey) cost of tracking down the book - it involves, inter alia, the chance meeting of two pneumatically-powered yellow toy rubber monkeys on the table of the Staff Captain on the Mauritania, without which the trail would have gone cold before it started.

[Whenurhappy]

According to his obituary in the Telegraph, Jones was a bit of a self-promotor and seen by the likes of Tizard and Cherwell as a bit precocious. Nonetheless, if he hadn't be so bold (eg confronting Churchill) a whole range of threats would have been ignored until it was too late.

I wasn't aware his papers were at Churchill; I found references to him in post war papers in the CIA archives (University of Maryland)- relating to the appointment of a Sciad to Malaya in c1951.

[Andy Fletcher]

Most Secret War by R.V.Jones ISBN 978-0-141-04282-4 Penguin Military History

The hut was non magnetic and vital to setting the bomb's heading correctly. RVJ has lots on V-1 and V-2 intelligence etc.

He mentions Mosquito PR almost as often as Spitfire PR sorties.



Although the programme placed great emphasis on the role of photo recce Spitfires, ironically Peenemuende was covered far more often by Mosquitos. The 23 Jun 43 photo used extensively in the programme of the elliptical V2 test stand was taken by a Mosquito crewed by F/S E.P. Peek and F/S J. Williams of 540 Sqn

I don't think that the role played by photographic reconnaissance in general, and aircrew in particular, gets the recognition it deserves.

[air pig]

I think it was very scanty on the history of PR, and did not mention anything of R V Jones, The Oslo reort, Constance Babbington-Smith, or Adrian Warburton and Tony Hill (Bruenaval pictures) or as previous poster states the Mosquito squadrons.

Very American orientated, almost as if the RAF did not undertake any reconnaissance at all.

Regards

Air pig.

[aviate1138]

Whenurhappy
"Jones was a bit of a self-promotor and seen by the likes of Tizard and Cherwell as a bit precocious."

And Lord Cherwell was suited to judge?

"Lord Cherwell was by no means a pseudo-scientist
or a fool, but it's estimated that he may have prolonged the Second
World War by an entire year, simply because of his authoritarianism
and bad judgment".
from CP Snow

The article was from 1982, and apart from one Wikipedia entry, there
isn't all that much information on Cherwell in the Web. The entry does
give Cherwell some credit for his "innovative work on weapons", but on
the other hand, it also seems to confirm his obstinate character, his
questionable influence over Churchill, and also specifically notes
Cherwell's strange preference for carpet bombing as well as his
refusal to accept the evidence on the existence of the V-weapons.

[air pig]

According to R V Jones, Cherwell did not agree with the concept of radio propagation and the use of Knickebein X and Y Gerate with th former using a modified Lorenz blind bombing system. But, Cherwell did have T K Eckersley from Marconi backing him up in his agrument.

Cherwell, IIRC did not believe in the V2 either believing that a cordite/gunpowder rocket would not work. Arrogent in the extreme and believing the not invented here concept.

Regards

Air Pig

[Landroger]

Cherwell, IIRC did not believe in the V2 either believing that a cordite/gunpowder rocket would not work. Arrogent in the extreme and believing the not invented here concept.

I always understood Cherwell was the one who didn't think the liquid fueled rocket would work? Was he not quoted as saying something like;

"When the war is over and we can know the truth, the liquid fueled rocket will be found to have been a Mare's Nest."

He wasn't terribly impressed by Whittle's jet engine, either.

Roger.

[air pig]

Roger, I misquoted, Cherwell did not believe a rocket would not work unless it was cordite or gunpowder propelled. Yes indeed a serious case of thinking that if we can't do it no one else can. The German rocket prograame was known from before WW II. Jet engine development was as a multi national thing, not just in one country. The main problem being material technology not a failure of the concept

Regards

Air pig

[Whenurhappy]

Aviate - I am an accolyte of Jones and his competative nature was exactly what was needed at the time, instead of the self-effacing modesty and subservience that stifled progressive thought. Both Cherwell and Tizard (the latter changed his attitude towards Jones, it seems) were tired old men.

[aviate1138]

This country needs another RV Jones right now to bang the idiot Huhne and his cohort's heads together and stop the madness that is so called Global Warming, poisonous CO2 and stupid Wind Farms; however that is another thread! :rolleyes:

[Rallye Driver]

Off at a bit of a tangent. But here are some pics of the filming for the programme at North Weald.

Jimmy Taylor with re-enactors
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v165/YakRider/Group-2.jpg

Two of the Medmenham analysts
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v165/YakRider/VeteransLo.jpg

Heli departs for A2A sequence
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v165/YakRider/R44.jpg

Take off
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v165/YakRider/TakeOffLo-2.jpg

Fly by
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v165/YakRider/LowPass-1.jpg

Landing
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v165/YakRider/Land-1.jpg

[Warmtoast]

For an excellent overview of Operation Crossbow David Irving’s “The Mares Nest”, a best-seller when first published to great critical acclaim in 1965, is hard to beat.

The first edition had to have all references to Enigma and ULTRA removed, but it was later reissued with the previously excised Sigint references restored. I was startled by one particular fact that Irving quotes, that the V1, at only £125 each, was a cheap killer.


As one reviewer comments:

The V-1 and the V-2 were run as rival programmes, by the air force and the army respectively. Throughout, the V-2 was given the higher priority, though all the evidence showed that the V-1, in terms of cost-effectiveness, was by far the better weapon. Mr Irving produces some startling figures to prove this point. The flying-bomb offensive, from 12 June to 1 September 1944, cost the Allies £47,635,190 in loss of production, loss of aircraft and crews, extra AA and fighter defences, in an extra balloon barrage, in the clearance of bomb-sites and in the bombing counteroffensive; permanent repairs to houses damaged cost a further £25 million. As opposed to this, the manufacture of the flying bombs and the erection and defence of launching-sites cost a mere £12,600,670.

In terms of lives, the disproportion was even greater: 7,810 (including 1,950 trained airmen) on the Allied side, 185 on the German. The flying-bomb, at £125 each, was a cheap killer. By contrast, the V-2 cost £12,000 each to deliver a similar payload and with no significant improvement in accuracy. It absorbed a higher proportion of Germany’s scientific and skilled-engineering manpower than any other project, and the demands it placed on scarce supplies, particularly heavy chemicals, inflicted grave damage on the German war economy. Indeed, it might be argued that the V-2 did more harm to the German war effort than the entire Allied strategic bombing offensive.



Read a selection of reviews here:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/reviews/Mares_Nest.html (http://www.fpp.co.uk/reviews/Mares_Nest.html)

..and better still a free download (9 MB) from the publishers of the full 378-page 1985 edition which includes the previously deleted Sigint references can be downloaded here:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/MaresNest/index.html (http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/MaresNest/index.html)

[Melchett01]

Despite the various omissions, I thought it was rather good. If nothing else, it sheds a little light on to an often ignored, far less glamorous intelligence discipline than the typical 'spooks' and Bletchley crowd (not to do a disservice to either).

James Bond it's not, even deathly dull in some cases, but recce and imagery-intelligence is a vital part of successful ops, back then and today, just nice to see it get a look in for once.

[Whenurhappy]

Its a pity that this book is so tainted by David Irving's reputation and subsequent court conviction as a pro NAZI & one who has denied that the holocaust occured.

[jindabyne]

BBC NEWS | UK | Profile: David Irving (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4449948.stm)

Agree ----- if, of course, it's one and the same