R-44 accident in Colorado May 8.

[hostile]

The Kathryn Aviation Report: Robinson R44 II, N921JM: Helicopter Makes Hard Landing On Lookout Mountain; Buffalo Bill Downhill in Golden, Colorado. (http://www.thekathrynreport.com/2011/05/photo-heli-crash-buffalo-bill-downhill.html)

YouTube - helicopter.mp4

Looks like all survived. :ok: :D What happened?

[Gordy]

He ran out of "Pitch, Power and Ideas" all at the same time....

Another angle (http://www.kwgn.com/news/kdvr-helicopter-goes-down-near-skateboarding-event-in-golden-20110508,0,29570.story)

And another one:

WhwgONsPBcM

There is a huge discussion on this side of the pond about this accident. Looking at it, I would say a combination of low altitude, low speed, no escape route and low time mountain experience.

[OFBSLF]

I was just up that road a week ago.

[hostile]

I new it! ****.

[Torquetalk]

Only a couple of weeks ago did an LPC in an R44 and the FE was waxing lyrical about the power reserves of this type. Sea level, 2-up maybe: Near or at MAUW, hot, high, or any of above, complete rubbish. Very easy to over-pitch. But watch this space for someone repeating the myth (despite plenty of video evidence to the contrary) :ugh:

[EN48]

Near or at MAUW, hot, high, or any of above, complete rubbish


You are reading my mind! :ok:

[Arrrj]

I have flown R44's a lot, (and particularly in Aus where it is bloody hot) and like most (read all) smaller machines they can run out of power in the classic high, hot and heavy situation. I have (however) not overpitched a machine, so I will have to argue against that "myth" - but perhaps I am just careful ?

I would be really interested to know the "heavy" part of this accident, as I can only see one person getting out of the machine in the video. One up, full fuel and 40 + (C - sorry, we are in metric in Aus !) there is no way the machine would be anywhere near the limits...one wonders what else went wrong ?! :hmm:

PS _ I am endorsed on the new R66, and unlike many other machines (EC120B, 206 et al) I can attest to the fact that you can OGE hover with 5 people and 3/4 fuel, in 35 + C heat - 75% torque ! VERY impressive. :ok:

Cheers - Arrrj

[Gordy]

3 persons and the mountain is about 7,500 msl.

[Arrrj]

Thanks Gordy, I must have missed the other two escape the machine. With three up, that would explain what happened perfectly. Thanks for the clarification. The sort of flying seen in the video is not "smart" in a heavily loaded 44 in the mountains... :=

[Chi Sin Gei Si]

"It's gonna blow up!"

Haha, too much Hollywood!

I'd say the puff of smoke at 2:44 could be a clue!

[OAX]

to me it looks like he may have got caught in a downdraft from the hill and tried to turn away and fly down the hill but too low
my guess he didnt realize how low he was when he turned around initially ??
just read there were 3 on board well i agree too close and fine and heavy

[Torquetalk]

TBH it would help to get the message across if posters read previous posts and looked at the videos properly before posting:

You don't have to be hot, high AND heavy. Any of these factors can lead to power required being more than power available. So can flying out of trim (say, when doing a film or photo flight), or hovering in the vortices of the rotor.

And it isn't a problem limited to small machines: exactly the same thing can happen to big ones: a CH53 was lost in Afghanistan because the crew didn't notice they had a low power margin and flew into a no-way-out situation.

It is however, a frequent problem with the R44 because there are so many out there and amongst those many pilots be some who are clueless and believe the aircraft has large power reserves: it hasn't.

Maybe there was a downdraught, and maybe an alien had the helicopter in his "mystery accidents" laser gun sights. Probably the same alien that caused the pillock to crash in Germany last summer.

Prevent accidents and spread the message: you can run out of power in an R44 EASILY. The evidence is to be found on THIS site: lot's of it.

Safe flying TT

[Arrrj]

TT,

Correct on all counts...I needed my magnifying glasses to see the three people "escape" from the "it's going to explode" R44 (Raven 1). I have spent some time (at your kind suggestion) and carefully reviewed BOTH the videos.

As a (mainly) R44 (II) pilot, I understand the limitations well and (like yourself) agree that ALL machines are the same - i.e. they will all run out of power eventually. Don't knock a R44 though, it's a hell of a lot easier to fly than a 206 or (even...) and EC120B at the limits. I must say that there does seem to be a flavour on this thread from the UK to criticise the Robinson product - maybe us "convicts" in the USA and Australia just can't afford to fly the cool machines that you Pom's rave about all the time...like the underpowered EC120B with tail rotor authority problems !

Thanks for your posting. :ok:

Arrrj

[Torquetalk]

My pleasure.

I actually think the R44 is a great machine. Just have that "if I had a dollar" feeling every time I hear someone talking crap about all that power. It's manifestly not true.

Another issue with the Robinsons is that folk mostly fly around at power settings where the correlator/governor system works very well. But above 24" it does not work as well and "may" fail to compensate the increase in drag without leading with the throttle. As this is something that is easily overlooked in training in [modern] Robbies, a pilot can find themselves needing to fix an incipient low RRPM problem with very little experience of this basic skill at a critical moment.

TT

[John R81]

Arrj

You ask us not to treat the R44 unfairly then go on to do that to the 206 and EC120.

You may not have the luxury of flying more expensive machines, but you certainly are not short on Hypocricy.:D:D:D

As a "mostly" EC120 pilot who also flys R44 I don't find the EC120 difficult to handle at the limits (compared to the R44). Guess it is just what you practice.

I liked your -all machines have limits, all limits can be reached, know the limits and be careful - approach that you opened with. I can subscribe to that - pity (for me) that you did not stop there.

[Chi Sin Gei Si]

Downdrafts?

I don't think so! Everything to me shows the opposite. Wind was coming up the slope. Smoke, T-shirts, Grass, Flags?????? Huh...I don't know.

However, one eyewitness reported downdrafts. It could have been a simple downdraft encounter, and no power to recover. Overtorquing of the pitch and a left pedal turn could account for a low RPM situation.

Or here's another scenario:

He's downwind. Speed below ETL, using more than 30%, power, combination of updrafts and rate of decent.

Hmmm...

Aircraft seems to fall out of the sky, but engine seems OK *(One report said the 'rotor slowed just before impact' though.). Maybe pilot input. Also, nose drops forward, rather than falling flat. Not a tail rotor issue, because pilot comfortably makes a loft turn seemingly to get clear mountain.

Maybe this wasn't a power problem.

Anyway, glad everyone got out. I'm sure we'll get the first hand story soon enough.

[Gordy]

Chi Sin Gei Si

(But I won't speculate.)

Go ahead-----I think you are intimating it was "vortex ring" with your analogy? I say NOT.

I say "power settling" as in insufficient power to hold hover with a possible tailwind, and he started to settle.

'rotor slowed just before impact'

That was probably due to the "Oh Sh1t" moment and instinctively pulling power and dragging the rpm's down.

The mistake he made, amongst others, was turning the nose to the left, (using more power),--it looks to me like he was clear in the right, he could have "fallen away" and gained airspeed. But we will never know for sure.

Even if this turns out to be a mechanical failure, we can still learn some things, without writing a book on mountain flying, here are some basics:

1. Never take more people on photo type work than is necessary.
2. Be cautious in the mountains. Give yourself a little more altitude, and speed. The aircraft handles different and mountains bite.
3. Have a "get out route"--plan accordingly.
4. NEVER and I repeat NEVER be afraid to say no. Remember a good pilot can do everything, a great pilot knows when to say "NO".

[Chi Sin Gei Si]

Gordy,

Good post.

I must admit that my first thought was VRS. However, as eyewitness news filters in, and in reading, it seems that the evidence might not be conclusive. For example, I thought the winds were uphill - some guy (interviewed racer) mentioned downdrafts. Though in my mind, its not ruled it out.

I also wondered whether a right turn away would be better for fly away, but I don't know what is on the other side of the hill. Wires, another hill, a road with more long haired 'youths' with bums hanging out of their long shorts, with caps backwards! etc..etc..?

Speculation - yes, you caught my deliberate error there. Of course this is 'speculation'. Normally, I hate all the pre-report speculation. Espcially when there is no evidence and due to sensitivity for possibly bereved families. If I must say one thing, I am still careful to keep away from words like 'mistake'.

However, here we know all walked away, and we have evidence in front of us. I don't feel so bad having a guess with this one. The pilot will come away with a bruised ego, possibly that's all. Moreover, he will come away with knowledge and hard experience. That is probably worth the ego.

Your 4 points are very well put. I hope we all learn from this.

Lastly, gotto love the final comment in the 2nd YT video - "Yeah, F**K that!" and walk away!

[FairWeatherFlyer]

The Raven II flight manual's here, looks like OGE zero wind ends around 2200lb depending on conditions on the day (pdf page 65):

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/354424-flight-manuals-line-requests-5.html

It's interesting to note that the two charts, IGE and OGE, are for 'full throttle' and 'takeoff power or full throttle' respectively, not max continuous.

(I've only just noticed that he gives the tree a decent prune on the way past it!)

[Arrrj]

John R81,

100% fair comment mate. You are, of course, correct to rebuke my unkind comments of the 206 & EC120B. I have a fair bit of time in the 120 (in New Zealand and Australia), and (same as all other machines) there are things that a 120 does not like doing, like high hovering or down (3/4) wind taxis. Lovely machine inside and to look at though. When I have flown the 120, I just fly it in a different way compared to my 44...and vica versa.

R44's have plenty of idiosyncrasies too. Apologies for my unfair comments, particularly in terms of your lovely 120.

Arrrj :ok:

[OvertHawk]

John and Arrrj:

Can we have a "group hug" now?:E

OH

[John R81]

Sorry, not going to hug...... Feel too embaressed and small for speaking sharply to such a nice guy.

[Arrrj]

John R81, fair response, pilots don't hug each other...although I'd hug the poor chap that crashed his Squirrel at my local (fuel) 'YSBK' airport a couple of hours ago. His machine is trashed, but he is OK...:D

Arrrj

[Soave_Pilot]

Hovering with no forward airspeed, left pedal turns, low altitude... high density altitude... :=

[dammyneckhurts]

Step 1 - learn to recognize that you might actually be entering a situation where you don’t have enough power to hover.

Step 2 - If you are intentionally going to fly into this possible limited power situation, first you need to figure out how much power it takes to hover OGE and how much you have in reserve. Do this by hovering somewhat close to where you want to take pics and do a "power check" by doing an OGE hover in a safe place that you can easily fly out of. How much power are you actually using to hover OGE?..look at the gauge and make sure you are not exceeding the allowable power for your alt. and temp.... then check how much extra you have on top of that. Do it somewhere that you can drop the pole and fly away just in case you have made a serious error in judgment and don’t have enough power to do your little OGE power check, not facing into the dam hill!

Step 3- Before you start to take pics have a way out pre-planned in case you run out of power. Know where the wind is coming from.

Step 4 - Whenever intentionally put yourself into a limited power situation in a Robbie always lead with the throttle. This means before you lift the collective 1 millimeter you are adding some twisting effort to the throttle. You are just keeping the rpm 1 or 2 percent higher than where the governor wants to keep it, rpm should be right at the top of the green.

Step 5- This is the big one.... since you are always manually twisting the throttle a bit you will FEEL it hit the throttle stop before the RPM starts to droop.

If you feel the throttle stop, don’t pull up on the collective! Head for your exit, into wind, fly downhill, right pedal is better, down collective is good.