200 Jetstar Asia Cabin Crew Stood Down

[The Kelpie]

I have just heard a rumour that over 200 Jetstar Asia Cabin Crew based in Singapore have been stood down . It appears they didnt hold a First Aid Certificate and are now being rushed through.

It is a requirement for all Australia crew to hold this certificate when they commence flying. I am aware of many flights leaving Australia with only Singapore crew, which means that no one on board was trained for any medical emergency. This was brought to light recently when a passenger, a nurse had to administer first aid because the singapore crew didnt know what to do.

So much for all Qantas Group subsidiaries being monitored to ensure that they meet the high standards of the Group Mr Joyce!! Well that is what you told the Senators!

...and Bruce - you told the enquiry that they did First Aid as part of their 15 day training, a course tha had been reduced from 25 days. Seems there are a few knowledge gaps amongst the troops.

Franchising Airlines does not work - safety definately suffers!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[cart_elevator]

Sorry Kelpie, can you point out exactly what legislation/ regulation requires all Australian Cabin Crew to have a first-aid certificate?

CASA requirements regarding cabin crew are vague at best. As far as I am aware, the only first-aid requirements relating to cabin crew is they need to know where the first-aid kit is, how to use it and how to operate an oxygen bottle.

Nothing in CAO20.11 regarding first aid certificates.

The requirements are individual carriers' preference.

I am happy to be proven wrong! ;)

[Bic4Pen]

they need to know where the first-aid kit is, how to use it and how to operate an oxygen bottle.

...and the easiest way (if not the only way) to prove these things is with a recognised First Aid certificate.

...come to think of it there are plenty of First Aiders I have know with no idea of what to do with the contents of the box :rolleyes:

[ozbiggles]

Seems to me it would be a basic qualification for a company to pay for or at least require you to have.....unless you were more interested in cheapness then quality.

[cart_elevator]

they need to know where the first-aid kit is, how to use it and how to operate an oxygen bottle.

Actually, no recognised Senior First aid course will teach you how to use an oxygen bottle. Nor will they teach you how to use an airline's first-aid kit. Ring up St John's and ask them what is in a Qantas/Jetstar/Rex/Virgin first-aid kit. They will not know.

It is all taught in in-house Emergency Procedures/ Medical training.

[Ndicho Moja]

JetStar Asia used to require their crew, cabin and cockpit, to take First Aid training as well as basic self defense.

[kellykelpie]

Hi Kelpie,

From one sheepdog to another, the rumour isn't true.

[Howard Hughes]

This industry has gone to the dogs!;)

[The Kelpie]

Well...I did say it was a Rumour. But it was from a credible source so I have no reason to doubt the information until further information is received that suggests otherwise.

Cheers

The Kelpie

[bubblyguy]

All Australian airlines required their Cabin Crew to have a current Senior First Aid certificate and also a current CPR certificate (if the first year of their Senior First Aid has already elapsed).

After recruitment recurrent training is done before the expiry of these (CPR 1 year, SFA 3 years).

Also as part of initial cabin crew training "Aviation First Aid" is a CASA requirement to be completed (along with many other modules that are mandated by CASA) which goes through aviation specific conditions and treatments.

Initial training of course covers all equipment carried on board including portable oxygen, first aid kits (there are 3 different types of first aid kits at the airline I work at - at least one of each type is carried on every aircraft), UTHs and of course all other aircraft and emergency equipment.

[KABOY]

I do not have a First Aid certificate, yet I am expected to know location,contents and flow rates of oxygen bottles and what various splints are used for.

The Cabin crew I work with also do not have certificates but are trained by the airline in basic first aid, this airline is based in Asia,like JQ Singapore.

Kelpie get your facts right before you go posting half truths, you will have far more credibility that way!:ugh:

[AlphaLord]

One thing in this forum that is definitely not at issue is Kelpie's credibility.
This is after all a "rumour" network.A pilots rumour network at that

[Cactusjack]

Perhaps the real issue is that they did not know how to apply the kits 'rash cream' to sore and swollen areas ?? The Asian region can be notorious for bacterial infections and unwanted lesions, mostly caught from food and skin encrusted aircraft seats !!

[Capn Bloggs]

JQ Australia requires FA certificates:

Jetstar Recruitment: Attention (http://www.bfound.net/detail.aspx?jobId=85568&CoId=27&rq=1)

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Cactusjack, I didn't get my lesion from a seat.....:bored:

[Cactusjack]

Cactusjack, I didn't get my lesion from a seat.....:bored:

Oh dear, did you get it from a JQ management meeting ?
The humidity, ping pong bars and 1 star accomodation can also be a 'contributing factor'.

[PPRuNeUser0198]

I don't think there is even 200 crew based in Singapore. That would be a quarter of the Australian operation alone...

[Icarus2001]

Also as part of initial cabin crew training "Aviation First Aid" is a CASA requirement to be completed (along with many other modules that are mandated by CASA) which goes through aviation specific conditions and treatments.

Can you provide a link or reference to this CASA REQUIREMENT?

[bubblyguy]

Can you provide a link or reference to this CASA REQUIREMENT?

I would LOVE to... :D

You will find it specifically listed under Civil Aviation Order 20.11, Appendix IV. One example I will pull from there on page 14 of the CAO Appendix IV, 1.4d;

"(d) use of first aid kits."

And just to add because you don't think it's a CASA REQUIREMENT;

"1.3 Oxygen. Methods of use of fixed and portable oxygen equipment."

And another section of the appendix;

"2.2 Oxygen. Applicable to operations on pressurised aircraft and where the provision of
oxygen is required.
(a) A knowledge of the effects of altitude on:
(i) respiration; and
(ii) hypoxia; and
(iii) duration of consciousness at various altitudes without supplemental oxygen;
and
(iv) gas expansion; and
(v) gas bubble formation.
(b) A knowledge of:
(i) the physical phenomena of decompression; and
(ii) precautions in use of oxygen; and
(iii) location of oxygen equipment carried."

Glad that I can point out one of the many requirements placed on cabin crew based in Australia. :)

[mightyauster]

Cart Elevator said:
Ring up St John's and ask them what is in a Qantas/Jetstar/Rex/Virgin first-aid kit.

Crap! Mainly because St John's supplies Medical Kits to at least one of the airlines you have listed there. I should know....

[bubblyguy]

Oh and I found this in another section of the CAO 20.11 outside of the appendix IV. If you haven't realised you sort of pissed me off. ;)

13.3 Training
e) location and use of first aid equipment.

So at the end of the day you can see how it is certainly needed to be a cabin crew member in Australia.

[mppgf]

Jetstar Asia is a Singapore based airline flying V registered aircraft and does not need to comply with any Australian regulations.

[The Kelpie]

MPPGF.

Let's just let the Australian public know that they are flying with a Singapore airline whose cabin crew do not have a recognized first aid qualification and let's see the reaction.

Jetstar have a duty of care to the passengers and their crew members to ensure that this 'workplace' has first aiders in it at all times. It is even an employment pre-requisite.

This 'if the regs don't say it, it is not required attitude' is the crux of the problem.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Mud Skipper]

I think it would be true to say the general public has a very short memory especially when money is involved.

Jetstar Asia could be culpable and crash an aircraft killing 200 people and still fill the plane next week. The public wants to believe the regulator/government would not allow an operator to fly if they were unsafe. Deferral of responsibility (read lazy) is a well understood human trait, indeed it’s linked to a personality type which needs to use a LCC, along the lines of the investor in a pyramid scheme who want something for nothing and when it goes wrong they don’t take responsibility for their choice as the system/government should have protected them.

From the aviation Minister down we have a failed system, a failed Department of Aviation, I doubt we are much better than a third world country once all the window-dressing is taken away. Unless the Senate Inquiry comes up with some significant changes then forget it.

[KABOY]

What about the 'Australian' travelling public who fly with EK,CX,CA,EVA,SQ out of Australia with cabin crew who all have the same qualification. Are they jeopardising their safety?

The crux of the problem is not what they don't have, it's what their competitors are doing to keep them competitive and I don't think it's a first aid course.

Ever heard of Medlink and the drugs that these asian carriers have onboard that can be administered by someone other than a first aider(Nurse,Doctor etc).

[breakfastburrito]

KABOY, this I suspect this rumour stems for the "Darwin incident" that made its way to the Senate inquiry: (my bold)

Nurse faced paying extra fare after trying to save passenger's life
Matt O'Sullivan
February 26, 2011

THE head of Jetstar, Bruce Buchanan, has conceded that the budget airline was ''not on our best form'' when it tried to charge a nurse for an extra fare after she had attempted to save the life of a fellow passenger.

Details of the midair incident on the Jetstar flight from Singapore to Adelaide on November 6 emerged yesterday when Mr Buchanan and the chief executive of Qantas, Alan Joyce, appeared at a Senate inquiry in Canberra into aviation safety and pilot training.

Passengers on JQ62 noticed that an elderly man had spent an ''inordinate amount of time'' in the toilet, the independent senator Nick Xenophon told the inquiry. But one of the passengers, who was a nurse, had trouble making a flight attendant aware of the severity of the situation because of communication difficulties.

When the toilet door was finally opened, the man was found slumped over after he had suffered a heart attack.

Senator Xenophon said the attendant did not know how to perform CPR, so the nurse tried to revive the man. The aircraft was diverted to Darwin, but the 86-year-old man was pronounced dead upon arrival.

The nurse had to stay overnight at Royal Darwin Hospital because capillaries in her face broke from the amount of effort she had put into trying to save the passenger's life. Senator Xenophon said the nurse was not happy when Jetstar later tried to charge her for an additional fare.

Mr Buchanan said all of Jetstar's cabin crew did CPR training and had refresher courses every two years. But he said it was standard practice for crews to ask whether any medically-trained passengers were on board aircraft when emergencies occurred because doctors and nurses were better placed to handle such situations.

Referring to the incident, Mr Buchanan told the inquiry: ''I think we were not on our best form the next day when she was disrupted out of Darwin.''

A Jetstar training captain, Geoff Klouth, had raised concerns at an earlier hearing that some of the airline's cabin crew were not properly trained for emergencies.

The inquiry heard that Jetstar had reduced the amount of safety training from 25 hours to 18 ''some time ago''. Mr Buchanan said this was because crew served on specific aircraft, and if they were working on narrow-body planes there was no need for the training required on larger aircraft.

Mr Joyce told the inquiry safety was Qantas's top priority, and denied that standards had been diminished due to cost cutting. He rejected ''the scaremongering and misinformation that has been put about'' regarding practices at the airline. ''Safety is never compromised [at Qantas],'' he said.

SMH (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/nurse-faced-paying-extra-fare-after-trying-to-save-passengers-life-20110225-1b8s3.html)

This issue appears to be that despite equipment being on board, none of the crew were capable or willing to using it. Are EK,CX,CA,EVA,SQ crew trained and capable of using the equipment?

[bubblyguy]

KABOY you would be pleased to know V Australia B777 carry Medlink and also a MFAK (Medical First Aid Kit) which has tonnes of drugs for qualified medical practitioners to administer.

Also all Virgin Australia aircraft are having MFAKs currently loaded onto them.

Defibs are also extremely important tools and these are on all B738s, B777s of course and soon all other aircraft, even the E190s.

I have had tonnes and tonnes of medical emergencies and I must say the training we receive to ensure we are prepared is second to none. Last week had a flight with a new crew member where it was her 2nd flight without a buddy and it was quite serious and she was amazing, especially when she was the only one able to attend to the passenger as the carts were blocking the rest of us till we were able to quickly move them.

Even some colleagues I work with who are ex Jetstar International tell me what a massive difference there is between Australian and overseas crew. But what do you expect when the training has been cut to the bones.

With my airline I did 6 weeks and now the latest crew are doing 8 weeks. They certainly are making sure they produce crew that are prepared for anything.

[Captain Dart]

CX use Medlink and carry defibrillators.

[tail wheel]

"Jetstar Asia is a Singapore based airline flying V registered aircraft and does not need to comply with any Australian regulations. "

Foreign airlines operating into Australia require a Foreign Aircraft Air Operators Certificate (FAAOC) issued by CASA.

For the issue of an FAAOC, to what extent must a foreign operator be compliant with Australian aviation legislation to operate into and out of Australia?

I would have thought crew training, including First Air and CPR would be as basic as requiring tech crew to hold valid licenses?

[mppgf]

KELPIE
I think you are getting your airlines a little mixed up.
Jetstar is an Australian airline flying VH registered aircraft with some Singapore and Thai based crew working for them and they do not ever operate on the Singaporean registered aircraft.
Jetstar Asia is a Singapore based airline flying 9V registered aircraft with their own Singapore based cabin crew that do not ever operate on the Australian registered aircraft.
It is a requirement for all Australia crew to hold this certificate when they commence flying. I am aware of many flights leaving Australia with only Singapore crew, which means that no one on board was trained for any medical emergency.
So really the question is, Which airlines cabin crew are you talking about ?

[rowdy trousers]

I think it was Sunday around one- ish, heard callsign "jetstar asia 702" on a BNE ATC (southern) sector - whats this about?

[bubblyguy]

So really the question is, Which airlines cabin crew are you talking about ?

Well I have been on a Jetstar JQ service with an Australian (VH) aircraft and the boys at the front were Australian but the entire cabin crew were Singaporian.

This was back when JQ were breaching immigration law with their crew staying too long in the country as foreign crew who would operate many domestic services and all sorts that ended up happening (which has slightly been changed and also some of it came out during the sessions at the Senate hearings).

Now the PER/SIN/PER Jetstar route is a 3K service. Would need to check if the aircraft still is VH. I'm not at international at midnight when that service does its turnaround.

I know JQ tow their aircraft all around the place between international and domestic (which even causes fights between Qantas and Skystar at times with QF doing the ground handling for domestic and Skystar doing international).

[bubblyguy]

I think it was Sunday around one- ish, heard callsign "jetstar asia 702" on a BNE ATC (southern) sector - whats this about?

There is a JQ702 which is a HBA-MEL sector.

But then that would be weird that they were on BNE centre? :|

[rowdy trousers]

Possibly got the flight number wrong, but definitely "jetstar asia"

[bubblyguy]

Well if it was with BNE centre could have even been a SIN/PER or PER/SIN flight.

After Jakarta centre they go to BNE before they transfer over to MEL later on in the flight.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

This industry has gone to the dogs!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Free "special" massage for all dogs.:p

[Going Nowhere]

JQ402 is AKL-SIN and often heard over BNE.