Fast Jet Circuits

[Flyer517]

Hi All

I'm hoping someone here could answer a question for me.

I was watching some Hornets and Hawks arriving at RAAF Williamtown this week and noticed that late to mid downwind, they all appeared to be adding a large amount of power (well the noise got louder anyway). I wasn't in a position to see why and for all I know it was just a matter of acoustics that made it sound as if power was being increased substantially.

Was I hearing things and if not, what's happening here? Is it a configuration change (gear?) that requires a lot of thrust to overcome? And is this a practice peculiar to the way the RAAF flies circuits or is it the way fast jets are flown?

Thanks in advance.

Flyer

[NigelOnDraft]

Swept Wing(s), drag, circuit design such that "power is up" for finals turn so engine is responsive.

The increase in power is more noteable since, presuming the join to the circuit is a "break", it will be at relatviely high speed (250K+ to maybe 400K), and from that point to mid downwind losing energy is the key, hence idle. "Mid downwind", you are approaching IAS / Alpha for the final turn and need to add power to stabilise speed / Alpha.

NoD

[PlasticCabDriver]

That's a relief, thought this was another PT/fitness test thread....

[Flyer517]

Cheers NoD...appreciate the quick response. :ok:

[[email protected]]

And they have to run and break just to show how punchy and macho they are:)

[BEagle]

Salt and vinegar with that chip, sir?

[Tankertrashnav]

And they have to run and break just to show how punchy and macho they are:)


Always remember back in the 70's watching the TV coverage of the Open from St Andrews, with the commentator complaining about the noise made by 43 Squadrons Lightnings as their pilots "showed off" as they went in to land at Leuchars, just over the water!

[Two's in]

I thought the run and break was because without a Nav on board, anything more navigationally complex than a 360 back to the runway would lead to them getting lost in the circuit.

[Blacksheep]

Nav? Wozzat?

[NutherA2]

Nav? Wozzat?

Something that 43 Sqn pilots wouldn't have taken along if ever the Fighting Cocks had flown Lightnings.............:D

[BEagle]

Nav? Wozzat?

A grumpy old device designed to dampen the seats in small corners of large aeroplane flight decks. Astonishingly, some very old aeroplanes even carried more than one of the breed; others also carried a variety of teenage wireless operators....plus a mumbling old fart to keep an eye on the dilithium crystals.































:p

[Wholigan]

And don't forget the dog. A dog was carried to keep the pilot company and the dog was there to bite the pilot if he even thought of touching any of the levers or switches.

[Willard Whyte]

A grumpy old device designed to dampen the seats in small corners of large aeroplane flight decks. Astonishingly, some very old aeroplanes even carried more than one of the breed; others also carried a variety of teenage wireless operators....plus a mumbling old fart to keep an eye on the dilithium crystals.Never met a pilot who could fly an instrument approach better than one advised by a nav.

Despite what the voices in a pilots 'mind' head might say.

[Tankertrashnav]

Something that 43 Sqn pilots wouldn't have taken along if ever the Fighting Cocks had flown Lightnings.............:D

You will have to forgive my faulty memory - yep, at the time I was dishing out the fuel (71 - 77) 43 were flying Phantoms at Leuchars (with navs and still doing run in and breaks to the annoyance of the golf commentator!)

[NutherA2]

I was dishing out the fuelBelated thanks for the fuel you gave away, T*********Nav, we were all very grateful for the service.

PS I was personally very careful to fly my F4 as quietly as possible, so as not to upset the golfers.:O

[phil9560]

Personally I'd rather listen to the F4s and Lightnings than watch the bloody golf!:)

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

Why not get the best of both worlds? Golf and fast jets! :ok:

Could there be anything better???

[Dengue_Dude]

Could there be anything better???

Err . . . how much room have we got? :rolleyes:

[A2QFI]

My recollection is that a "Run & Break" is the quickest and best way to get an aircraft, or a formation of aircraft, from a tactical cruising speed and back onto the ground in the shortest time possible.

[Arm out the window]

Get out of it, you pommies ... this is about RAAF circuits, and therefore any reference to 'runs and breaks' should be deleted, and replaced with 'initials and pitches'.
For the original poster, after the pitch (early downwind) the gear and maybe a stage of flap go out, so a reasonable power increase from idle is required to maintain downwind speed. Not that I was a knuck, but I did train on a jet some time ago, albeit a little one.

[[email protected]]

A2QFI - you FW boys take yourselves far too seriously:E

[A2QFI]

No - it is about how aircraft get into the circuit and land and we use our own terminology, thank you, and you can use yours.

[A2QFI]

No - we take our flying seriously!

[L J R]

The trick is to find a speed to fly through Initial, and pitch at an appropriate point past the Threshold in the 'Overhead' and not touch the power (from Idle) from that point until the touchdown.....It might take some patience on gear and flap speed...


...Of course I would never 'teach' such a technique....

[4Greens]

You may find that 'Initial and pitch' is American terminology.

[A2QFI]

And Australian - as we have been bluntly informed!

[Arm out the window]

as we have been bluntly informed!

Steady on, mate - I never had a ground job in 20 years, so the term 'blunt' doesn't apply either...:)

[BEagle]

You may find that 'Initial and pitch' is American terminology.

At Barksdale for Giant Voice 1979, we asked what a VRIAB was in spam-speak. It seems that the B-52, unlike the Vulcan, didn't do such things, so the best they could suggest was "High-speed gear-up low approach and a tactical pitch into the closed pattern"....:hmm:

Needless to say, we stuck with 'VRIAB'!

[[email protected]]

It's still just showing off, no matter how seriously you take it;)

You could just join long finals and land but then no-one on the ground would be able to go OOOOOHHHH and AAHHHH:ok:

[BOAC]

The trick is to find a speed to fly through Initial, and pitch at an appropriate point past the Threshold in the 'Overhead' and not touch the power (from Idle) from that point until the touchdown.....It might take some patience on gear and flap speed... - and, as 'crab' really knows in his heart, but cannot bring himself to admit, it is a finely flown manoeuvre executed by the best, but LJR's guidelines work only for the lead, and unless they all 'break' (sorry, play baseball) together - which can make for a pile of smoking aluminium and a bulk purchase of MB ties - the rest of the 6 ship HAVE to use power downwind and on final.

[BEagle]

You could just join long finals and land but then no-one on the ground would be able to go OOOOOHHHH and AAHHHH

And how, pray, would you split a 4-ship flying at normal tactical speeds into individual aircraft flying at approach speed at long final? How much time and fuel would your proposed alternative cost? If it would be more efficient, it would by now be SOP.

A formation break at the threshold from 420 KIAS/500 ft climbing to 1000 ft in the venerable old Hunter was a very effective way of losing about 270 knots in the minimum time, followed by a stream landing.

I guess you're just envious because no-one ever goes 'OOOOOHHHH and AAHHHH' at those awful clattering things you fly? Well, apart from the odd local yokel who probably throws bread to them.

[Wholigan]

When I was a young sprog (and yes I know that was eons ago), I was taught that the VRIAB was originally done for 2 reasons.

The first is that it is the fastest and most efficient method of getting a formation into the circuit and on the ground.

The second is that your aircraft is vulnerable to attack from another aircraft for a far shorter period of time and in an area where you may possibly have some form of ground-based air defence system, even if only mates with guns. This was - of course - at a time when enemy aircraft may well have been able to float around the skies in your area willy-nilly.

[A2QFI]

Beagle and Wholigan - thanks for that. Heli people don't often fly around in 4 ships, and for good reason! Thus one wouldn't expect them to know anything about it, as has been demonstrated!

[jindabyne]

Before you Oz-lot became infected with US terminology, you also called them RIAB's old chap. But then, as with you Air Force uniform, you change things about frequently.

[Lightning Mate]

The trick is to find a speed to fly through Initial, and pitch at an appropriate point past the Threshold in the 'Overhead' and not touch the power (from Idle) from that point until the touchdown.....It might take some patience on gear and flap speed...

Care to try that with a Lightning or even better, a Jaguar.....??????

...and Wholigan....


When I was a young sprog

I thought you missed that part of life and went straight to being a BOF. :E

[advocatusDIABOLI]

or an F4 or Tornado or F16...........

Pity this has dipped into the trivial, as the first answer was spot on! The only thing I would add, is that a 'Fast Pitch to the Closed Pattern' or 'Visual Run In and Break' are both pretty much the same, and Just as Cool as Flip!

There really is no better reason to do it than that. :D

Advo

[DITYIWAHP]

BEagle has it in one: the most effective way of slowing from a tactical speed is by flying a high-alpha bleed turn with idle power and airbrakes out. Us fast jet types are always in a rush when we’re on recovery because we're usually late and, more importantly, flying in a roughly straight line back to base is a boring interlude between some demanding upper air work and valuable circuit training. Oh, and the average fighter doesn't turn too well at slow speeds as well.

As for avoiding threats - you would have to be over-run by the enemy or be at a DOB for this to be a factor - what threats are you facing (ie aircraft or SAMs)? I would suggest that making a recovery to base with enemy fighters in the vicinity would be a ballsey move (and very world war 2); making a recovery with a possible SAM threat - there are other techniques that you might want to consider...

And 'crab', when you next find yourself going oooohhhh and aaahhh at a jet in the overhead, it's because all of this routine fast jet stuff just happens to look cool as well :E.

[[email protected]]

And as if by magic, here I am at the home of FJ ego, RAF Valley, ready to ooh and ahhh as frightened teenagers commit airborne onanism as they manfully pull the wings off their superjet as they rejoin for some valuable circuit training:E

Now, in a real ground to air threat environment (Afghan for example) where making yourself a pretty target is not SOP - would you fly 4-ship run and breaks or would you do something a little more tactical?

Maybe that is why the rotary types prefer singles and pairs and tactical, relatively unpredictable approaches.

Actually you can run and break in a helicopter but we look cool all the time and don't need to show off to those on the ground;)

[Neptunus Rex]

The huge difference between an Initial and Pitch (I&P) and a VRIAB is that the I&P is a level turn from circuit height, normally 1,000 feet, whereas a VRIAB is a climbing turn from whatever lower height you can get away with.

A lesser difference is that for a VRIB the downwind leg must be clear of other traffic. For an I&P you can have other circuit traffic, in which case you must continue upwind until you have visually accounted for all the other traffic before pitching onto the downwind leg.

The RAF JP schools would only allow 4 jets in the visual circuit at the same time. Not so " "Ronny RAAF." One night, I called at Inititial to join the circuit at RAAF Pearce. "Clear to join, ten in" was the reply from ATC. By the time I had counted all ten ahead of me, I was getting close to the boundary of Perth International.

Halcyon days!

[DITYIWAHP]

‘crab’, so that the number of landings and the number of take offs are roughly equal (at least to the extent that the tax payer is happy) then circuit training will always take place. I guess from your ignorance on the matter that you’re not a pilot… but maybe you want to be? And it’s not just a fast jet thing. Rotary mates tend to put their steeds in plenty of tricky places with great skill, none of which they are born with and all of it has to be practiced regularly.

If you ever go to ‘Afghan’ then you won’t find any pretty or predictable 4-ship formations recovering to base there. However, if you need to put your 4 aircraft close together as one speaking unit (for the convenience of air traffic or because you are flying together in cloud) then some sort of close formation is a good and safe idea – and every opportunity you can practice it reduces the chance of something ‘unexpected’ happening.

By the way, the number of aircraft you put together just depends on what operational effect you want to have. Single aircraft tend to be more vulnerable without at least one buddy to keep watch while you’re heads-in.

So, you’re at Valley eh, looking at the frightened teenagers doing things that I couldn’t decipher from your vitriol and bad grammar? My guess is you’re in the spotter’s car park runway 19. :ok:

Edited to reduce the font size to reasonable.

[chopd95]

From a time when there were many of them over here:

" Alconberry base, I got five swords, five bah five for a burn on the hot strip n fan"

(translation available for those without O level Spam speak )

[Dengue_Dude]

Well done guys! As a mere slow truckie (in both senses), you've categorically proved that it is possible for two circuits half a hemisphere apart to interlock and risk an ego collision. Bit like Wyton and Alconbury really.

I always thought that run and breaks were such fun and expressed the joie de vivre and mental age of the average jet jock (bearing in mind that the average FJ pilot was above average by definition).

I never even considered there might be an operational reason.

Great fun eh?

[[email protected]]

DITYWHAP - you might just find I have more years and hours in military cockpits than you:ok:

But it is such fun baiting stovies:E

[[email protected]]

When I was instructing at Valley in 1990 (at SARTU before you get too excited) I was hovering over the golf course at 300 ft carrying out a winch weight check. My height was accurately assessed by the fact the winch cable on a Wessex was 300 ft long and it was all out - the very accurate rad alt was just a confirmation and the bar alt with QFE set also read 300ft.

A pair of hawks broke into the circuit, around the golf course climbing through my level as they did so - the minimum height for run and break was 500 ft climbing to 1000ft.

I called on tower to highlight that they were low and clearly did not appreciate there was a helicopter hovering with 300ft of cable beneath it.

Shortly afterwards, I was ordered to land by SATCO and I subsequently discovered that the 2 pilots were the Stn Cdr and OC Ops! After much bluster on their part and offers to pull the ADR trace, I realised I was onto a loser and wound my neck in.

What was the purpose of their punchy run and break? Safe and expedient recovery of the formation to land????? or just showing off and breaking their own rules? You decide.

[Really annoyed]

I realised I was onto a loser and wound my neck in.

I hope you wound the cable in also before you landed. By my guessing I would suggest that you were probably higher than 300 feet unless you had the hook just touching the ground. I am guessing that you needed something heavy to keep the wire straight? So add a couple of feet for that plus the height that would be off the ground and you can see that maybe your height judgement could be questioned.

[4Greens]

A million light years ago a run in and break was called a 'NATO arrival'

[Wholigan]

As for avoiding threats - you would have to be over-run by the enemy or be at a DOB for this to be a factor - what threats are you facing (ie aircraft or SAMs)? I would suggest that making a recovery to base with enemy fighters in the vicinity would be a ballsey move (and very world war 2); making a recovery with a possible SAM threat - there are other techniques that you might want to consider...


Maybe it would be better if you had read my post very carefully. Firstly, I did say that it was eons ago. Secondly, I did also say that the break rejoin was "originally" done for 2 reasons. Sadly, I failed to define "originally". However, my aim in the post was merely to give some indication of perhaps where and why the break originated, for the interest of those who might be .... err ..... well ..... interested!

I am - of course - quite aware that the "avoiding airborne threats" reason has mostly been overtaken by events, situations and technology. Nevertheless, I betcha there are still some places in this world where it is still a valid method, even if we may not ever fight there.

[DITYIWAHP]

Crab, if your CO and OC Ops did deliberately break from below the proscribed height then they were foolish to carry out such a flagrant breach of their own rules – even though they were probably at 1000 ft when they passed over the top of you and they probably knew there was no confliction; such flying would not be gentlemanly. The chances are that it was really just a trick of perspective – and with no ADR milk to hand we’ll never know. You do, however, beat me for number of years in a military cockpit – but only just…. Did I tell you the one about the helicopter mate who disregarded our local order book only a few weeks ago… It’s a shame to tar everyone with the same brush.

Wholigan, there was no deliberate misinterpretation of your prose intended from my perspective. I think nowadays that there are very few venues where a good old battle break could be labelled as anything other than a good bit of fun, sadly.

I wander if 4 FTS ground school covers the justification for a fast recovery in such detail.


Edited for spelling.

[Arm out the window]

Heli people don't often fly around in 4 ships

Ah, A2, again you should probably speak for your own hemisphere. In my rotary days in this part of the world (as now), 4 or more ship formations were very commonly flown, for tactical reasons of course.

That A2 qual must have been particularly thorough, giving you a seemingly omniscient awareness of all things aeronautical, worldwide. Imagine what you'll be like when you step up to A1!

[Brian Abraham]

Heli people don't often fly around in 4 shipsThere was a time when 10 was the standard size.

[Arm out the window]

The huge difference between an Initial and Pitch (I&P) and a VRIAB is that the I&P is a level turn from circuit height, normally 1,000 feet, whereas a VRIAB is a climbing turn from whatever lower height you can get away with.

Again, I beg to differ. A low run-in followed by a climbing pitch to stardard circuit height (intentionally flown, that is!) is still an initial and pitch, sometimes called a fan pitch.

I say these things for the benefit of the poor old original question-asker, who should really know the terminology of his or her own country, particularly as the 'initial and pitch' lingo is enshrined in the Aussie AIP, whereas run-ins and breaks don't have any particular regulatory meaning.

[birrddog]

Heli people don't often fly around in 4 ships

p4SIF5iK2cw

[[email protected]]

Really annoyed - yes I was higher than 300ft - 320 ft to be precise - that must have made all the difference to the perspective;)

[Flap62]

Wholi - I hope you will permit me some lattitude.

Crab, you said

I realised I was onto a loser and wound my neck in.


It is interesting that the above sentence also makes complete sense if you remove the word "onto".

[ICBM]

Flap mate - lmao!

universal answer to questions posed concerning 'why' VRIABs are carried out - BECAUSE WE CAN.

thread closed....no, please..

[pr00ne]

"Never met a pilot who could fly an instrument approach better than one advised by a nav."


Well as we use to say to any nav who was getting bolshy and above his station, I never met a nav who could boast as many hours without a pilot as I could without a nav....

[Geehovah]

Wholigan has it. Its the quickest way to get the formation back on the ground and the safest way to avoid marauding German fighters in the circuit by keeping up fighting speed. For a few heady months in the 70s at Wattisham, the break height was 250 feet.

I just find it takes so much longer in a Cherokee......................................

[Neptunus Rex]

For a few heady months in the 70s at Wattisham, the break height was 250 feet

Why so high? Blimey, at Townsville we would have pairs of Neptunes break (Fan Pitch) from 100 feet. Legally.

[Wander00]

Even Watton in the 60s I am sure we broke at 250', even in T17s

[[email protected]]

Flap62It is interesting that the above sentence also makes complete sense if you remove the word "onto".

as it does if you remove 'onto' and insert 'FJ' between 'a' and 'loser':E

[Flap62]

9,10.....

Too late, too contrived and not original. Other than that, fantastic ripost.

[NutherA2]

Why so high? Blimey, at Townsville we would have pairs of Neptunes break (Fan Pitch) from 100 feet. Legally.

NR,
Can you explain why the RAAF SOP at Butterworth in the 1960s was for the Sabre Squadrons to break into the circuit (or perhaps pitch into the closed pattern) DOWNWARDS from 1500' to make 1000' downwind? It seemed to me to be a strange manoeuvre I'd never seen anywhere else.

[[email protected]]

Flap62 - given the banality of your post I didn't want to waste originality on you;) and riposte is the word you were looking for!

[Flap62]

Or was it perhaps re-post? Either way I could blame it on a dodgy keyboard or Shiraz. Time to stop before we bore everyone I think.

[Unchecked]

Landing on a runway looks gay, full stop.

Now, landing in a wooded clearing to ten foot msc or in a thick dust cloud looks much more cool.

During my life, I have never seen an "operational" FJ 4 ship - the only time I do see it is for practice at their home plate. However, I have seen many 4,6,8 even 10- ship RW insertions in various theatres. So, tell me, how is this colds-war relic manoeuvre still necessary?

[BEagle]

During my life, I have never seen an "operational" FJ 4 ship.

Well, you warry little fellow, perhaps you should get out of your tent / ditch / floating grey tin box more and see what the rest of the world does?

I guess you weren't around for either Gulf War? Some very fast-jet operational flying took place, in case you missed it in your blinkered little world.

[Lightning Mate]

Now now Beags......:D

[Dengue_Dude]

What an enjoyable thread:

If this were a tennis match at Wimbledon, the referee would be requesting new balls.

Don't stop on my behalf :ok:

[Wrathmonk]

I have seen many 4,6,8 even 10- ship RW insertions in various theatres

Only because it takes that many 'designed for the European Theatre' helicopters to insert a platoon-sized force :E

[Unchecked]

No I wasn't Beagle, well not for the start of the second one anyway. But somebody earlier in the thread said that it is a tactical necessity in a theatre of war and it probably is, I know nothing about it. But, I don't recall seeing a 4 ship lift together, carry out an attack together and then recover together, tactically, within that theatre and having to employ that recovery method for tactical reasons. AFAIK, the majority of our recent missions against our enemies have been launched from friendly nation bases. That includes both GWs.

Hope that clears my ignorant train of thought up a bit.

[Flyer517]

OK so I think I've got an answer to my original question, as well as started a minor commonwealth war, but here's a minor follow up.

What does the "Initial and Pitch" term refer to? Is the "initial" the roll to 90 degrees and the "pitch" a pull on the stick to tighten the turn and bleed energy?

If it's a yank term I would have thought "Bankin' and Yankin'" a more appropriate one. :}

Cheers and thanks to all for the entertainment.

Flyer.

[Brat]

Yes. Quite amazing the amount of action that can be seen on a quiet day or three.

[NutherA2]

What does the "Initial and Pitch" term refer to?

Initial is a point on the extended runway centreline from which the "run in" & "break" (pitch) is made. Wish I could remember how far from the initial point is from the runway threshold, but that's just one more fact that's faded with advancing age; IIRC it was roughly equivalent to our old fashioned "2 minute" call. Beags will doubtless remember, though..........

[heights good]

"I hope you wound the cable in also before you landed. By my guessing I would suggest that you were probably higher than 300 feet unless you had the hook just touching the ground. I am guessing that you needed something heavy to keep the wire straight? So add a couple of feet for that plus the height that would be off the ground and you can see that maybe your height judgement could be questioned."

Are you for real?

A winch wire weight is a few feet high and a crewman is normally a pretty accurate judge of height, it is their job as a winch operator to know how high the cable with a weight attached (normally a winchman shaped weight) is off the ground.

They learn this skill on day one at winch operator school :ok:

HG

[BEagle]

A WIWOL once told that the IP was about 30 sec out from the threshold at whatever speed a Lightning used to join at......

But easier to use some visually significant feature on the extended centreline, really. Just as long as you don't mis-identify said feature as I once did (wrong old church/castley thing) - and said hello to Withybush aerodrome rather than Brawdy at rather an impressive rate of knots in one of HM's glorious FGA9s. Fortunately no-one complained!

[heights good]

"Well, you warry little fellow, perhaps you should get out of your tent / ditch / floating grey tin box more and see what the rest of the world does?

I guess you weren't around for either Gulf War? Some very fast-jet operational flying took place, in case you missed it in your blinkered little world."

Maybe it was at FL350 and thats why I didn't see all the FJ greatness whilst at 50' and dodging wires, buildings, masts, cranes, mosques, pigeons, kites etc. etc.

Just out of curiosity how many medals do the FJ guys have on average, for all their "very operational flying" :E

And before anybody gets too excited this is meant firmly tongue in cheek. We all have a job to do and we do it well.

HG

[Really annoyed]

We all have a job to do and we do it well.

What? Do you include the Tiefoons in that? I guess somebody has to represent the RAF at air shows. Plenty of oooooohs and aaaaaaaaaaaaahs from the spotter people.

[Phalconphixer]

Foxtrot Alpha18
Why not get the best of both worlds? Golf and fast jets!

Could there be anything better???

That was something that the USAF had perfected to a fine art; especially around 4th July... quick visit to Leuchars, usually a 4 ship from Alconbury. Remove golf clubs from the modified Sargent Fletcher tanks, then later, barbecue and party time on the foreshore picnic site.

Good Times...

pp ex 43 groundcrew...

[jindabyne]

Real fighter pilots just get on with it -------- WGAF

[Arm out the window]

Flyer, this is how it works:

The 'initial point' is 5 nm in the downwind direction (runway heading, not actual wind) from the threshold of the runway you're going to land on.

You set yourself up to approach it usually at a 45 degree angle to the direction you're going to run in towards the airfield (calling left or right initial as appropriate when you're about 30 seconds out), or you might fly a 'straight-in initial' where you fly through the point on your run-in heading.

From there you fly slightly displaced to the deadside (in a normal single-sided circuit set-up, ie not contra-rotating circuits) at fairly high speed, sighting circuit traffic as you go. That's the 'initial' part.

When you have all the traffic sighted, you decide where to cut across from the deadside onto downwind, which is 'the pitch'. You can cut in front of traffic on early downwind if you judge you'll slot in in front of them OK, otherwise you must extend upwind until it's safe to pitch.

The pitch itself is a fairly high-g turn compared to what you'd normally do in the circuit, say 3g and 70 degrees bank for a starter, with idle (and maybe airbrake if it's SOP for the type). This washes off speed quickly and gets you set up for the downwind leg. As speed reduces, so you reduce your g and bank appropriately to end up at correct downwind spacing from the runway at the speed you want (approaching gear speed, normal downwind speed for the type).

Once established on downwind, you add power to maintain the desired speed (hence the noise increase you mentioned), then fly the rest of a normal circuit.

Variations as mentioned could be a low initial for a fan pitch, or a low initial for a low level circuit, or anything you like really. As people have said above, it's an efficient way to get yourself back from higher speeds and into the circuit to minimise the time you spend at low vulnerable speed. It also lets you split a formation easily and get them into proper circuit spacing by using a number of seconds between aircraft pitching out from the formation - say 3 or 4 seconds. Obviously you have to work out who pitches first and how they do it, so as not to pitch into your mate as you go!

A2 can take it from there, no doubt.:)

[teeteringhead]

Now all has become clear!!! It's just a "gate approach" (rotary speak) ;););)

[Flap62]

It probably is like a helo gate approach but if it's a nominal 5 miles out it probably takes only 40 secs in a FJ compared to one-two hours in a helo.

[Lightning Mate]

A WIWOL once told that.....

Nice to know that you talk to WIWOLS Beags. :ok:

Lightning break speed anywhere between 400 and 600ish knots, depending upon how one felt........:E

[Unchecked]

Good job helos don't need to begin their approaches 5 miles out ! Not even 500m out !

[Lightning Mate]

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/Lightning_29/readyforthebreak.jpg

[grusome]

I'm surprised that the alternative methodology, as recommended by a chap in khaki I think, has not been described to date. There is a rather famous historic occasion (somebody is bound to correct me about the actual callsigns) when a certain formation leader lost interest in going all the way around to the IP.
Abeam the airfield, the RT went something like this:
"XXXX Tower, Maple Hipshot with 4, joining downwind. (Slight pause) Hipshots, spread out."
He retarded the thrust lever at that point.
Rumour has it (this a rumour network) that it took quite a long time to get all the jets on the ground, thus proving that initial and pitch is far more efficient.
Gru

PS. Why is the #2 in 86 so far out of position?

[Lightning Mate]

PS. Why is the #2 in 86 so far out of position?

Just to get a better photograph mate. :ok:

[grusome]

Crikey, I thought it was all done with models.


Yeah yeah, I know, sorry 'bout that!

Gru

PS. Shouldn't the ABs - er sorry, reheat - be visible by now? After all, you're about commence a climb.

[BEagle]

PS. Shouldn't the ABs - er sorry, reheat - be visible by now? After all, you're about commence a climb.

Lightning, not Jag!

[Lightning Mate]

:D:D:D...........

[grusome]

quote (sorry, don't know how to do the blue thing):
NR,
Can you explain why the RAAF SOP at Butterworth in the 1960s was for the Sabre Squadrons to break into the circuit (or perhaps pitch into the closed pattern) DOWNWARDS from 1500' to make 1000' downwind? It seemed to me to be a strange manoeuvre I'd never seen anywhere else.


Well, the 1500' was to avoid ground fire, and the break was at 80 deg bank to stay within the airfield boundary (same reason), and it's bluddy hard to keep the Sword's nose up at 80 deg, so it just happened.

Actually, I would be very surprised if that was the SOP - but then I was only there for 3 weeks in the 60s. Will somebody tell us, please?
Gru

[27mm]

And we haven't even started on the Canadian Break.......:E

[Lightning Mate]

.....or the Granny break.....

[Lightning Mate]

Or even the split break:

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/Lightning_29/splitbreak.jpg

[BEagle]

Why did 'AE have full flap selected in your piccy, LM, whilst the other jet was clean...:8...?

[Lightning Mate]

Dunno mate. :\

[BOAC]

Beagle - ancient dying brain cell says 250kts limit for flap, so since it appears to 11Sqn it is more likely to be an airmiss in the circuit:)

[Lightning Mate]

The world just loves a smartass. :D

[BOAC]

You ex-11, then?:)

[heights good]

"It probably is like a helo gate approach but if it's a nominal 5 miles out it probably takes only 40 secs in a FJ compared to one-two hours in a helo."

"But when you bang out, 20 miles out, you'll shout for rotary......"

;)

HG

[Mach the Knife]

Not an AIRPROX in the circuit, or even a break before landing. This photo was most likely taken just after take off when splitting from close formation into battle before the climb. My experience of breaks in the Lightning was "for god's sake don't waste fatigue joining the pattern, max 2G save all the g for combat" Good philosphy on an old shagged out aircraft. However only way to break an F3 was 600kts (and a little bit) 67wg, max G and buffet to 280 without climbing above 1000' and then chuck the wings forward, flaps and gear down and turn final. Happy days, don't spill the G&T now.

[Farns744]

Ah, you mean a playtex.:ok:

[Mach the Knife]

Yes I do. "Playtex at burner cut" not heard too often these days.

[Canadian Break]

Ref post 93. Oy, what have I ever done to you - leave me alone!:)

[frodo_monkey]

Mach the Knife Not an AIRPROX in the circuit, or even a break before landing. This photo was most likely taken just after take off when splitting from close formation into battle before the climb. My experience of breaks in the Lightning was "for god's sake don't waste fatigue joining the pattern, max 2G save all the g for combat" Good philosphy on an old shagged out aircraft. However only way to break an F3 was 600kts (and a little bit) 67wg, max G and buffet to 280 without climbing above 1000' and then chuck the wings forward, flaps and gear down and turn final. Happy days, don't spill the G&T now.

You're Ricko surely!!

[Flyer517]

Well explained. Cheers.

Flyer

[Arm out the window]

Too easy mate, happy to help.

[Lightning Mate]

Gentlemen, the break. :)

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/Lightning_29/57066113_WetLightning-1.jpg

[Wander00]

LM - was that at the last Binbrook Open Day?

[Neptunus Rex]

Blimey! A WIWOL experiencing ectoplasm.

[Lightning Mate]

Blimey! A WIWOL experiencing ectoplasm.

If you remember mate, I got lots of that at Linton as well.

Bugger - wrong word..........:E

LM - was that at the last Binbrook Open Day?

Yes, I think it was.

[BEagle]

Absolutely TOP photo, LM!

That's the way things were done when once had an air force.....:\

[kick the tires]

What was the purpose of their punchy run and break?

They are great fun to do!

[Neptunus Rex]

If you remember mate, I got lots of that at Linton as well.Yes mate, I recall very well. Those languid summer months - was it the humidity, or that we were still in our early thirties?

[Wander00]

LM - great day but as I recall VERY wet. Came up from Brampton for the day 5 years after I left Binbrook on posting. I have a very similar photo buried somewhere. Thanks for the "nostalge".

[Neptunus Rex]

Came up from Brampton for the day 5 years after I left Binbrook on postingNow that is one impressive "Run and Break." Shame it was only one day.

You must have really dropped a b**llock to get 5 years as a desk officer at Brampton!

[Wander00]

Did a short tour at Neatishead as OC Admin Sqn, 4 months opening Death Star, and then Command Accounts - had a deal with the Boss - I had the budgie on my jumper so I always did flying stations - even got to fly in the Harvard, so not all bad! Binbrook 80-82 was, as the Chinese say, "interesting".