Virgin Does What Qantas Can't

[fishers.ghost]

The biggest personal investor in the world aviation industry, Sir Richard Branson, says the sky is a safer place today thanks to the death of Osama bin Laden.
It is a positive for the world and a long-term positive for everyone in it, according to the man who was in Australia yesterday lending his weight to revamp Virgin's Australian aviation business.
Safer it may be but it is the wider threat of the sluggish economic landscape and the rising fuel price rather than terrorism that is presenting Virgin and its competitors with their present challenge.

Only an entrepeneur would have the tenacity to launch a new product or business direction in a hostile industry environment. Richard Branson's Virgin Australia perhaps needs to be taking this punt in its David and Goliath-like fight with Qantas for the business traveller.
Virgin Australia undertook the biggest step in its brand renewal yesterday - a new name (Virgin Australia replaces Virgin Blue and V Australia) and a new livery, assisted by plenty of Branson himself hanging out of the cockpit of the new aircraft to appeal to the cameras.
Make no mistake, the product the new Virgin Australia unveiled yesterday is impressive. The aircraft looks fresh and comfortable on the inside, both in business and economy, and is spacious enough to satisfy the corporate traveller.
For the Virgin shareholders, the numbers should stack up. Virgin Australia's boss, John Borghetti, has spent the $35 million capital expenditure wisely to pull his product out of the middle-ground dead zone - with a cost base that could not compete with the no-frills market and a product that could not capture the more discerning business traveller - and into the full service market.
Once the fleet is introduced, the business traveller will have an alternative in quality - but perhaps not in frequency.
Over time all new Virgin aircraft will be equipped with the same quality interiors seen on display yesterday. The airline will also beef up its frequent flyer program and overhaul its business class lounges.
If Qantas and Virgin were starting out fresh tomorrow as competitors on an equal footing in the Australian domestic market, they would probably split the market 50/50.
But Qantas, as the airline with a near monopoly on the business market, has the advantage of inertia and, more importantly, a well-established frequent flyer customer base. It also has the huge advantage of more flights.
Virgin does not aspire for a moment to catch half of the business share - it just wants to take an additional 10 per cent, which on its numbers is $150 million in revenue. And it doesn't expect to get this overnight. It will take a few years.
The trouble for both Qantas and Virgin is that the commercial environment for airlines is hostile right now. For the most part this can be attributed to the soaring cost of fuel and to a lesser degree sluggish Australian consumer sentiment.
The leisure market is being squeezed, regardless of the comfort of the aircraft and the attractiveness of its livery.
Not even Branson can debate this. Virgin warned a month ago that its losses would blow out to as much as $150 million in the second half of the financial year, most of which can be attributed to subdued consumer spending and the rising oil price.
Virgin Australia's Borghetti says the business has enough capital to sustain it through these lean times and that this modest investment in repositioning Virgin is well worth the cost given the potential gain. Over the past few years, its push to gain traction in the commercial market has met with little success. It has been more about marketing and less about product to back it up.
The challenges for Qantas are every bit as great. It is a larger company with potentially more to lose. It has been propped up by its lucrative frequent flyer business both as a generator of earnings and a means to keep its customers loyal..
Having Virgin redouble its efforts to steal business passengers is a threat Qantas does not need now.
For Virgin, the additional capital expenditure and operational expenditure needed to embark on building a full service airline is probably a worthwhile punt.
Virgin under Borghetti is on a roll.New alliances,streamlined branding and fresher more vibrant presentation.Word is Borghetti has given staff a number to contact him if they see ways to improve the business.
Now....whats the telephone country code for Ireland ?

[breakfastburrito]

"Screw the roo, light the star"
Borgetti & Joyce want exactly the same thing, how ironic!

[DEFCON4]

Sell Qantas Buy Virgin.
Only if you want exposure to the roller coaster of Aviation of course.
Virgin is going to provide a better ride over the long term.
You may even get a dividend

[Capt_SNAFU]

Still to be convinced that Borghetti is a messiah. He does know how to spend cash. Time will tell.

[argusmoon]

You need to spend money to make money.
Or you can be like Qantas.Spend no money and end up with.....crappe!!!!
Good on you Mr. B

[TBM-Legend]

two 'little' men now running the "big" two airlines.:confused:

Virgin Australia rebranding is underwhelming. A kindy class would design the airplane scheme...like that!

[standard unit]

I find it amusing that JB was a long term (since he was 16) member of the QF team that is so hated on these pages. He was an executive under the hateful Geoff Dixon and was at the birth of Jet*. He guided it through its inception and growth as a QF executive. He is every bit as responsible for QF as AJ is and if he had beaten him to the CEO gig would be just as vilified here.

What I find amusing is that the above quote demonstrates that you know nothing of which you speak.

Perhaps others will be along later to explain why.

I can't be bothered.

[KABOY]

Virgin has just bled a lot of cash, regardless of the reasons the industry is dynamic.

Tiger and QF have similar issues to deal with, now VB is throwing a lot of money into a venture that is tightly held and will continue to be tightly held by QF. Analysts are predicting this to be a watershed that could cripple a 'New World' airline.

Borghetti is no 'Messiah', he is a CEO with little left to do other than rebrand in the hope of capturing some of the high yield market.

[piston broke again]

Lester, ask anyone at Qantas and theyll tell you borghetti was one of the most respected men. Not just since he's been at virgin. Read some old posts please. That will tell you all you need to know.

[Icarus2001]

KABOY are you able to supply at least one link or reference to support your claim...
Analysts are predicting this to be a watershed that could cripple a 'New World' airline.

Face it. JB was forced into this move by QF.

QF deliver a superior product and are a company making healthy returns. They were squeezing VB with Onestar at the leisure end.

So JB had absolutely no choice to make this change. It was forced on him by the market place, essentially QF.

The VB share price closed at 28.5 cents today. It is still trending down after the rebranding, so the market is not too impressed.

I am looking forward to trying out the new product.

[Ka.Boom]

A team of execs headed by Dixon ran Qantas.
Borghetti was part of that team.He did not always agree with the direction Qantas was being taken.To insinuate that he was responsible for the mess that is now Qantas casts aspersions on the intellect of the individual making these assertions.
Qantas does not offer a superior product.According to Dixon and now Joyce it does not return its cost of capital.It is a cash cow that many would like to get their hands on.Run it down and destroy shareholder value then flog it off cheap.Reap $60 mil for doing so.Joyce is merely taking up where Dixon left off.
Qantas would be a much healthier beast had Borghetti got the the big gig

[Seriously]

QF deliver a superior product and are a company making healthy returns.:yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:

HAHAHHAHAHAHHA:ok:


Whatever!:ok:

[JSCL]

I think it's wrong to say QF don't deliver a superior product. I flew Jet*, Tiger, VB and Qantas when I visited Aus - I was most delighted by Qantas. Putting the old birds manning the cabin and the older aircraft aside, it was a quality product. Sitting on VB, I felt crammed and up close the aircraft looked poorly maintained. There's just something about being on a Qantas flight which 'feels' better. It feels that bit more spacious and like you're being cared for much better.

The only 'superior' aspect of VB is the cabin crew ladies. Jet* was 'okay' and I sat on a Tiger flight just waiting to grab my life jacket.

Not holding much knowledge on either Airline and their backgrounds but in terms of customer experience, Qantas wins it in my eyes.

[Seriously]

so sitting on an 25yr old qantas b767 compared to a 5 yr old virgin 737 you felt safer on an old qantas piece of poo than a "cramped" 737... :ugh:The new Virgin fleet will look like :cool: while the qantas "poo" will look like :mad:

QANTAS is done, dead over good bye...:sad:

J* will take its place:*

And that will be ****...:eek:

[Angle of Attack]

Or sitting on a 2 month old QF 737 with IFE in every economy seat compared to a 5 year old VB 737? (which I did today) Its easy to make generalisations. How about the fact that all QF 737's have HUDS and RNP approaches while a lot of VB 737-8's still circle to land at a lot of smaller airports? Aircraft age is not the only factor in safety, there are various other factors. Just like circle to land and non RNP approaches are not necessarily more dangerous either as a lot of pilots would agree, so lets stick with the facts not generalise. The fact is QF are making profits and VB are bleeding, these are the facts seriously.

[ampclamp]

it is an interesting situation.
jetstar and QF have virgin surrounded.Cant really compete at either end.

JB ( who actually was respected by many at floor level unlike some) must move decisively to stem the damage.
Make no mistake, it is a gamble that must be taken. He has to try something different and is giving it his best.

He knows QF inside out and realises the fact that QF failed to really look after the top end relying on inertia, the freq flyer , lounges etc to keep the biz sector wrapped up despite a deteriorating product.

The full wrap front page adverts in todays newspapers would have been read by masses of QF's best bizoids.Good tactic , bloody expensive I am sure, but spells he means business.

For those QF wage slaves it is great.QF domestic makes good money and will need to kiss a lot of backsides and likely spice up the product.
In the end it means higher fares and a move up market to shore up the biz sector.
Nice to see a race to the top for a change. QF have a huge head start but with some luck JB just might force them to change.

[Seriously]

Yes QF are "making profits" But apparently it has nothing to do with their flying operations...

VB are going to post a loss, but new terminals, new uniforms etc don't come free:=

V australia if the figures are posted will post a profit:D Smashing Qantas on the Pacific. Joyce even said it was a loosing money(the pacific). Right equipment on the right route, not the A380 burning fuel carrying no frieght and lower loads over the same distance as a twin...:=

Qantas's biggest and worst mistake ever is not ordering the B777:=

And not listening to their staff and etc...:eek:

[runesta]

let's have a look,

Godfrey took what was essentially already a successful, growing and profitable business, and expanded internationally with V Australia at the worst possible time around the GFC. Essentially V Australia bled cash thus drove the whole company's performance down.

Now Borghetti is reinvigorating the company by splashing money left right and centre. It has already been confirmed they will lose money this year somewhere between 30 to 80m a year which is essentially the worst ever result in VBA's history.

Recent years of expansion have been extremely costly.

All the money spent need to be recovered somewhere. Until that time they will remain financially and capitally weak. This is not all bad news in the Flying Kangaroo. Even better news for the travelling public as this new competition will drive better product offering and Qantas will be forced to respond with something better than the crappy millenium seat and tired cabin.

Funny how people are singing praises for John. Make no mistake. He was every bit a bully in Dixon's gang of invinsible men. He will introduce the Qantas culture to Virgin Blue so better look out!

[Angle of Attack]

Qantas's biggest and worst mistake ever is not ordering the B777

Cannot disagree there!

Its pretty sad too that we all know the A380 is a commercial disaster but hey what do we know? Managers know best!! :E

[wateroff]

Some of you QF blokes are seriously deluded about your company - Have you looked in the cabin ? Have you received some of the service given by your CC ? Have you looked at any other carriers around the world ?

"Doc Doc come in Doc,the Delorean got a flat and we're stuck in 1985"


Superior product - geeezzzzuz, are you kidding ,......................

[argusmoon]

You know this how ?
I have met Borghetti in both a work and social environment.He has never given any indication that he is a bully.I've seen him angry and impatient.What executive of any company doesnt get miffed from time to time?Borghetti was known as one of the red tail men along with the likes of John Ward and Roger Lindeman.Lindeman and Borghetti work together well.Lindeman is not only astute but is also one of nature's gentleman.I cant see him getting along well with a bully.
It is fact that Borghetti and Dixon butted heads.To Dixon Borghetti represented the old Qantas culture and had more airline experience.Borghetti had already been with Qantas for 20 years before it was floated.He understood the concept of service excellence.Dixon managed to destroy that concept.Does anyone honestly think Borghetti would willingly destroy a culture that he was a party to creating ?
Perhaps he will introduce the old Qantas Culture to Virgin.The culture that worked and made Qantas what it once was.A damned good airline.Not the mess it is now.You can thank Dixon for that

[ampclamp]

Depends on the cabin you are in wateroff.They are not all 1985 (or older)

Management have relied on getting the 787s sooner and failed to upgrade with less revolutionary product when they should have.
Epic failure.
That happens when you think you are untouchable and are focused on the low yield end above all.

[kimir]

J.B. was actually brought in to implement these changes and change the airline because it was "caught in the middle" between J* /tiger and Qf. This has been a work in progress for a long time, hasn't been implemented as a knee jerk reaction to losses. V.B weaknesses under the old model have been exposed in the last couple of years and the only way to continue to survive was to change the model....enter J.B. I think trying to capture a small amount of the business market (after around 10% more, 20 % total) is the only way to go. It will increase the yields, as flights are regularly very full and is easily achievable provided the service is up to scratch. The cabins look great, for once the job hasn't been half done. Companies that didnt use V.B in the past on longer sectors, only shorter trips due to no business class may use Virgin Aust exclusively. The changes in the last 12 months around the place have been really positive.:D

[ampclamp]

That is good news. Raising the bar rather than racing to the bottom must be good.
If VB take business away from QF, and surely they will , QF must react.
Probably good all round.

[Ando1Bar]

I think the reaction from Qantas is the business class TV ads appearing at the moment http://planetsmilies.net/vomit-smiley-17155.gif (http://planetsmilies.net)

[whatever6719]

Agree with posts above...this change can only be a good thing as long as QF dont act arrogantly (as I fear they will) and simply rest on their laurels and compete by claiming superior network, schedules, lounges, blah blah blah.

As i mentioned on another thread somewhere else, QF have to go back to basics. Lets face it, the Jetstar brand is on the nose with ALOT of people. QF
should do what SQ do with Tiger..distance themselves from it as much as possible. Scrap all the codeshare (which is damaging the QF brand day by day)
and make Jetstar what it was meant to be ...low cost, cheap and cheerful carrier that does not cannibilise mainline.
QF mainline has to regroup and refocus on what it should be (or strives to be). A premium, full service airlne that is able to take advantage of the bouyant economic times we are experiencing. The amount of money being splashed around by people these days is insane and QF needs to capitalise on this and fast!

Unfortunately those at the top have very different priorities and I cant see anything even close to the above happening....sadly :sad:

[geeohgeegeeoh]

The last significant change Q made was introducing premium economy. Personally, as a turn-left PAX this causes me some grief, because its good enough to meet *some* of the key drivers my finance people like, so I am being increasingly targetted there, but in not having lie-flat or even 5% slippery slope, its not good enough to leave me feeling slept and happy on arrival after a 15-25h flight plan.

The announced Dallas Hub is going to be the same: it looks great on paper, and will be greeted with cheers by some travel planners, because it increases hopoff options. But although I hate LAX, I doubt Dallas is going to put me into better routing choices facing my travel. Its a fine airport, but its not good timewise for the northern routes.

Dropping SF, dropping Vanouver, Dropping Paris, Dropping Rome, were stunningly bad moves if you want to explore routing options avoiding LHR or FRA. Barjas is a fantastic airport, I suspect the stuffed up Spanish share deal with BA prevented that one working which saddens me.

So, if Q wants to maintain loyalty, its caught on the horns of a dilemma: any improvement in Econ rebounds, because business moves down, and they loose revenue which does not offset the improved feeling from somebody who was always in economy. keeping open non-financial endpoints in europe and america(s) likewise doesn't make enough to offset the opex consequences.

I think its time national-pride got out of the way, and Q was joined to a rational partner in East Asia. the BA tie in has reached end of life for me, oneworld is good enough. I dont see Q benefiting from a one-on-one comparison with world traveller or the BA lieflat in business. Mind you, the BA service is shocking. I might give a wry smile to service outside of business class, but by comparison with the sour faces on the Brits, its a dream run (I also find Singapore a complete mismatch. I have no idea why everyone raves. Its fawning, and its not that great.)

Shame JAL is down the tubes. I like the Narita routing. Maybe a Korean or the more likely Chinese tie-in with a Shanghai hub is going to make it work.

Domestically, its all downhill. the self-service checkin is just de-staffing pure and simple. Its not an improvement for me. On-times, flight times, the 30 min minimum checkin, international-domestic tie in is just crap.

(after a 2 hr wait to be given my mandated overnight accomm in sydney from a BA/Q reroute, I am less than impressed with staff empowerment. a decision which was a one-minute call took 5 people 2 hours to complete)

-G

[Captain Sherm]

I guess there’s been about 7,000 posts on Prune about Jetstar, some thoughtful, many abusive and some ignorant. We could no doubt have run a medium sized hydro-electric generator with all the bucketing that has gone on.

All relate in some way or another, however obliquely, to the issue of what to do about rapid growth in the lower yield markets. How to capture it profitably without cannibalizing your own traffic and how to maintain the yields in areas where the market is willing to pay more.

Qantas was always in a better position than anyone to run an LCC subsidiary. It’s ability to internally cross-subsidize in many forms, not just cash, is actually a great strength, not a weakness. Like gravity, you don’t have to like that fact, or agree with it, but it's there and remains true.

But here’s the real deal. Amid the 000’s of Jetstar posts there were two that were pure gold and should be written up on the walls of crew rooms, board rooms, executive washrooms and anywhere else that you can find. Forget the rest.

The posts were by whatever6719 and they sum it all up in exactly 55 words.

I really do think a successful 2 brand strategy was their intention, but, they got greedy. They saw the savings that could be made by "Jetstarising" Qantas and they have sadly gone too far with it.

Make Jetstar what it was meant to be ...low cost, cheap and cheerful carrier that does not cannibilise mainline.

Whoever you are 6719, well written.

Thanks

Sherm

[Icarus2001]

Good points Sherm.

Remembering that Onestar was a defensive move by QF to secure market share (but at what cost yield?) and to squeeze VB. It worked. Now VB has to upgrade to move into the world of full service, where face painting and sing-a-longs will not be enough.

This places the ball in QFs court. The QF 330s are nice enough and the new 737s will help but it really is game on now.

The share market seems unimpressed though.

[629bus]

As a fellow aviator flying a green tail in Asia, there is only one career left in Australian airlines. Virgin Australia!!

[Equatorial]

It's funny cause when I read the title I thought it was in reference to Virgin's ability to employ pilots on **** wages. Anyone for a cruise pilot position??
:ugh:

[Mr. Hat]

Actually the whole thing plays right into Alan Joyce and Jetstars hands.

Jetstar will continue to follow and move away from the low cost and take more of QF's work.

In the end they will have QF's work at a tenth of the cost in wages.

[psycho joe]

Indeed, I wonder how long it will be until Jetstar install a full service business class product with access to QANTAS services. :D

[whatever6719]

If AJ and co introduce Business Class on Jetstar domestic services, it would be the most idiotic thing they could do. If it happens, it's game over for QF as we currently know it.
Hopefully they won't be that stupid!

[JSCL]

Exactly @6719

That's what Qantas is for. Your summing up is right. They need to focus on Jetstar filling the gaps ex-VirginBlue is leaving now they can cater for less general domestic economy seats and Qantas needs to go on the attack for the business travel.

If they get this wrong, they really will stuff themselves. I sure hope they aren't stupid enough.

[Flyingblind]

Gotta larf at the B777 v A380 threads.

That argurment has been done to death and is redundent as can be...10 years ago in the case for QF to procure the B777.

The A380 is yet to see its glory days.

[cart_elevator]

QF hasn't had to compete in domestic business-class for years. So they cut it all back, product, service, fleet. Now that they have to compete, I am sure they will. They have the cash and now.. the reason. They will up their product quick-smart.
They also have the premium frequent flyers, the government and corporate contracts, the chairmans lounge, and the aircraft.

Virgin has developed a fantastic product (although with a middle seat in JC on the 330,which Qantas announced today they are removing due to customer feedback), but they are making a hefty loss, and will face an uphill battle with swaying the corporate giants.

Qantas just has to meet the new standard. They are not in a position where they have to better it. If they meet Virgin's inflight product, they will win. They already have the corporate market, if they make it as good as Virgin's, they wont lose that market.

[RATpin]

Agree in part c.e. or should that be lower lobe?
However,nice seats and lounges do not make up for staff that are at war with the company no matter how you spin it.

[moa999]

That's what Qantas is for. Your summing up is right. They need to focus on Jetstar filling the gaps ex-VirginBlue is leaving now they can cater for less general domestic economy seats and Qantas needs to go on the attack for the business travel.
But on a 737 QF has only 12 J seats (DJ 8).
On a 767 fine 30...

But at the end of the day most of the money is down the back, and now that JQ and DJ have frequency that gets close to QF, that hot scroll/ apple or complimentary alcoholic drink after 4 aren't worth the $50-200 that they used to be...

It then returns to costs.

[whatever6719]

But hang on a sec moa, most of the money is NOT being made down the back.

Its those expensive seats at the front that help the bottom line which is the reason Virgin Australia are undertaking this very expensive revamp which includes Business Class on every one of their aircraft.
People dont fly for schedule and price alone. If that where true, Qantas would be flying empty and I can assure you, we are definately not.

[packrat]

Lets face it before Ansett fell over Qantas was struggling domestically.Ansett's demise left a void.That void is about to filled by an invigorated Virgin Airline run by someone who knows what they are doing.
Woolies always looked good because Coles was run badly.Now Coles is being run properly the paradigm is changing.So it will be with domestic aviation.
The Virgin livery, uniforms and slick ads must make a lot of people working there really excited.That excitement will be self perpetuating.Qantas by comparison is as boring as yesterday's toast.
Some one tell me again.
People travel with Qantas because....?

[my oleo is extended]

People travel with Qantas because....?
Because even though The Leprechaun and his predecessor Darth have turned a once excellent airline into a cheap and nasty outfit it still has better service and OTP than Virgin, Jetstar and Tiger.
However, out of complete fairness I rate all of them a 10/10 on the 'crap scale'. Europe has certainly left its mark on the way Australian airlines now operate.

[packrat]

Qantas is Jetstar.
Jetstar is Qantas.
There is no differential. Why?
Because someone screwed up.
This is not how to manage a brand stategy

[600ft-lb]

Qantas is Jetstar.
When questioning staff confront management about the loss of routes, jobs, conditions, job security.

Jetstar is Qantas.
When new aircraft are purchased, tooling required, adhoc charters required if a JQ aircraft is unserviceable, a JQ flight has gone unserviceable when a conveniently timed Qantas flight is also departing, when hangar space is required, training facilities required, terminal space required, basically anything that costs money and can be written off against the mainline etc. etc.

[astroboy55]

The Virgin livery, uniforms and slick ads must make a lot of people working there really excited.

The $30-$80 (some have said up to $150) million dollar loss will not.

[Xcel]

However much it pains me to say it...

Qf are actually in a good position but only right now... If they wait they will lose more than 10%...

They have pushed vb out of the leisure market - it's now theirs... Now they could punish vb with a revamp of their own... But they won't.

While vb is spending all Qantas need do is retain- they already have the infastructure.

If Qantas dropped all prices- gave it a real spring clean promised the world to the punters. Then when they squeeze vb into no-mans land, to expensive for leisure and business whilst losing money hand over fist... They get a real aviation wet dream - no competition!! All pilots get transferred to Jetstar And part time contracts...

But then the nightmare ends. Arrogance will come to the rescue of vb though.

[HF3000]

Disagree... QF have billions in the bank. Now is the time to spend big and make their product the bees knees. Spending money will make money, if its done right.

In this environment, it's not the cheapest that wins, it's the best.

Clifford will disagree, and that is why he fails.

[ditzyboy]

It is a shame the airlines are not competing on Economy legroom. As cabin crew, I think it is a lack personal space and room for cabin baggage that causes most angst in our frequent flyers. If you're going on a yearly family you don't care so much. The people who fly 2-3 times per week do. They must dread the 737s.

[Servo]

I dont understand why people keep saying that DJ are "pulling out" of the leisure market. They are not.Simple as that.

It is still and always will be a big part of their income stream.

All they are doing is attracting at least another 10% of the corporate market, win-win for DJ.

They have a much lower cost base than QF, probably not as "low" as JQ, so in a better position.

Low airfares are not sustainable, nor is putting a 747-400 PER-SYD. If QF want to bleed money doing so and bleed money with cheap and nasty in their JQ product, it will not be good.

Also as others have mentioned, the workforce at DJ is 99% engaged with a spring in their step, QF on the other hand...........

Time will tell. Do Not underestimate John, he is one step ahead of QF because he was there!

[ANCDU]

Time will tell. Do Not underestimate John, he is one step ahead of QF because he was there!

Thats exactly why some of you at Virgin need to be careful what you wish for.....

[Ka.Boom]

When travelling Borghetti was always engaging.Quite happy to chat with a happy disposition.
Dixon hardly ever spoke to anyone and was generally rude when he did.
Borghetti will make the hard decisions but there will not be any malice attached.He is not a narcissisist.He does not have a grand sense of entitlement.More importantly he doesnt need the money.He is motivated by the challenge

[lineupandwait]

Pretty simple really.

I fly Sydney Sunshine Coast a few times a year.

QF does not fly the route, I don't fly JQ.

It's not all about lowest fare price.

[astroboy55]

not sustainable, nor is putting a 747-400 PER-SYD

The classics would probably still be doing PER returns if it wasnt for the GFC. I think you'll find a 400 on those runs is more than sustainable.....

[DEFCON4]

The reason the 743 was taken off the route was simple....they kept breaking down.It was commonplace for two 743s to be US on the ground at the same time.Due to the curfew in Sydney there was only a narrow window for repair.Overnighting was a regular event.Tired old technology that required high maintenance.Passenger backlash finally caused their removal and eventual transfer to the desert

[coaldemon]

and doing 4 hour cycles on a 747-400 will do the same.

[Go West]

Can a 747 can be profitable to Perth? If a 737 was to use 10t the whole flight how much would a 744 use to TOC? More frequency, more efficency, less engines I guess would be a good start.....Do they fill those things? I am guessing not but please correct me if I am wrong.

[1746]

Having read only the last page -whilst witnessing this demise first hand - I suggest a more appropriate title for this subject is "VIRGIN DOES WHAT QANTAS WON'T!"

[Tidbinbilla]

Thank you, 1746.

The posts relating to "the Jetstarisation of Qantas" have been moved to the appropriately titled thread.

Please feel free to continue the discussion there :)

Meanwhile, back to the topic :ok:

[Ejector]

STANDARD UNIT ---- Splill your guts Sir, What do you mean??

re post #9:ugh:

[psycho joe]

The classics would probably still be doing PER returns if it wasnt for the GFC. I think you'll find a 400 on those runs is more than sustainable.....

I had thought that the only reason the classics were doing Perth runs was because they were so old and sh!tty that QANTAS didn't know what else to do with them. Nothing to do with sustainability.