Is it pointless ?

[mattpilot]

3 Years ago I was still working as a fixed wing instructor in the USofA until my work permit expired. While doing that i also obtained the CPL for helicopter on the side (all FAA). After the work permit expired i moved back to Europe and now for 3 years sit on ~800 hours fixed wing and ~100 hours whirly-time. My passion is of course helicopters, but in my early youth i got suckered into going fixed wing by a recruiter - though don't get me wrong, i did enjoy it.

Now back in Europe i've been waiting for an opportune moment to convert the certificates to JAA and get an airline job, but the longer i think about it and watch how the job market is getting worse (can it even?), i simply can't justify dumping up to a combined 50k euro's into a conversion course (+MCC & other stuff) and a subsequent type rating just to have a 10% chance to get a job for which airlines would rather have cadets in the first place. Never mind the money i'd spend on keeping the license current if i can't find a job right away ...


So now i'm wanting to give helicopters another go - overall it seems 'cheaper' for me to convert and maintain (plus i'd be doing what i wanted all along). After converting i'd have maybe ~120 heli hours. The big question then is am i at all employable with such low hours in europe (or anywhere where a euro can find work)? Obvious first job would be flight instructing, but i know how hard it is to find a job doing that in the states with 250 hours. I got 500+ hours fixed wing instructing + gold seal certification (:E) and I like instructing - but that all doesn't mean jack if i'm 'only' a 120 hour heli pilot, ain't that right? :ugh:

Don't suppose anyone has been in a similar situation and has managed to pull it off? Wouldn't mind a few encouraging words - or just the plain truth about how high my obstacles really are... no sugar coating :=


I've been putting off asking this question, since deep down i know the answer. So forgive me if this seems like a fruitless post with ramblings. Over the past few years i've just lost my sense of reality, i suppose... :uhoh:

[chester2005]

With only 120 hrs rotary time you could not get a JAA CPL issued so you would need to hour build as well
Chester :ok:

[stickysunrise]

Just Do It.
Any one can, if you're committed.

ps. enuf with the self analysis, already. god only made one you. he made plenty of helicopter pilots, and more plank pilots than that! So stop trying to be the most special pilot and just be YOU!! lol. nice to read your post.

[Phoinix]

YouTube - Do it! Do it! Do it!

[Pandalet]

You may want to check out some of the other threads around, where very similar questions have been asked, but in short:

you need at least 185 hours to convert a CPL(H) or 155 hours to start a CPL(H) course. You also need to do the ground exams (9 or 14, at £60ish/paper, plus a few £k for a distance course). You can count some fixed wing hours towards this, IIRC - LASORS is your friend here.

You don't seem to be employable with 'just' a CPL and sub-200 hours, unless you're exceedingly lucky or well connected. So you either need to add an instructors rating or an IR.

An instructors rating requires 250 hours to start; I'm not sure what the conversion requirements are, but again, LASORS will help here. I believe the costs for an instructors are around £20k if you do it in the UK.

An IR costs between £35k and £50k, depending where you do it, for a multi-engine version; the SE version can be had for around £12k, but isn't very useful. Some offshore companies don't care whether you have a SE or ME IR, but most employers require a ME IR, so unless you happen to have something lined up with someone who is happy with a SE IR, you really need to go ME.

LASORS can be found here: LASORS: LASORS 2010 | Publications | CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=1591)

[Art of flight]

Certainly here in the UK i know of a at least a few 2000 hour VFR helicopter pilots really struggling to find a living wage, the bigger employers are really going for cadet type set-ups, looking for youngsters willing to pay towards training and then working for years at more modest salaries.
The 'self improver' route is a long hard slog and for many just doesn't bear fruit in the form of a real paying job. The rotary industry is split 4 ways,

Training-low paid instructor jobs with intense competition for few jobs and little prospect of moving on to a well paid job.

Emergency services flying-modest to good salaries, shift work, 'fairly' secure (though UK police about to make 30 redundant) if you have at least 1500 hours including twin turbine, night etc...

Corporate-mainly freelance, so an instrument rating and a couple of type ratings are desirable, not good at present for starting as even experienced high hours pilots with good experience and industry contacts are struggling.

North Sea-looking for cadets willing to pay/bond for a number of years on modest salaries but with a route to command and better salaries in time. Really intense competition and not really open to self improvers at this time or anytime soon.

It's not a good picture of our industry but for someone starting out and looking to spend lots of money it's the truth. Think long and hard before embarking on career change.

[mattpilot]

THanks for the replies.

Regarding the hour requirement for the CPL, i could of sworn i read in FCL 2 that if you hold a ICAO CPL(A) you only need 105 hours (if you take into account all the airplane reductions) to start training, and while training you need a minimum of 20 heli / 10 sim which lead me to the ~120 reference in the first post. I guess i'll have to research that more. I must also admit the requirement for the FI rating has slipped my mind.

Back to the drawing board ....



(PS. Anyone got a link to those north sea operators that enslave you for a few years? :E )

[Garfs]

Well it sounds to me times are hard in the UK now (from what I hear).

A few years ago I was also asking myself whether or not to take the plunge and do my CPL(H). The difference between and you was that I had nil flying experience. I hesitated for years and in the end said to myself screw it if I dont try I will never know.

Moved away from the UK to another part of the world, completed my CPL(H), was lucky enough to pick up a job flying R44's, and have very recently been offered a job in the LHS of a twin and am waiting to start (fingers crossed all goes to plan on that one)

Before I did my CPL, Many people told me I would probably not find work, and based on the odds, they were probably right as well. I was lucky no doubt (and worked hard and did my best to network along the way which helps a lot) but if I didnt try in the first place I wouldnt be where I am today

[GS-Alpha]

mattpilot

Your figure of 105 hours to commence CPL(H) training if you hold a CPL(A) is correct.

Very few people obtain commercial flying jobs without a degree of financial risk and good luck. You only live once. If it is your dream, go for it!

I would not rule out airline flying either. I personally love it, and I could never hope to earn what I do or have the amount of free time that I enjoy, were I flying helicopters instead. I can see myself going part-time at some point in the future, and instructing on helicopters part-time. I'd still earn more than flying helicopters full time, and I'd have the best of both worlds.

[Pandalet]

Beg your pardon, you're right that you need 105 hours to commence a CPL(H), if you meet the requirements of JAR-FCL 2.225 with a CPL(A); if you don't, you need 135 hours. This is to start a CPL(H) course.

To convert from an ICAO CPL(H), with a CPL(A) (and no mention of whether this is a JAA/UK CPL(A) or ICAO CPL(A)) you need 105 hours plus flight training as determined by the head of training of whatever school you choose (assuming you meet the night rating/experience requirements). You do still need to pass the theory exams, although you can be exempt the course that goes with them (at the discretion of the head of training again), and you need to pass a CPL(H) skill test.

The relevant section of LASORS is D4, in particular D4.5. It's probably worth having a chat with the head of training of whichever school you had in mind, as that's who you'll need to convince to exempt you from the full course.

[chopabeefer]

Mattpilot

GS-Alpha makes some very good points, but it is not neccesarily the case that a FW pilot will earn more than a rotary guy, although on the whole it is certainly true. Bear in mind that for every Cathay Captain there is a commuter co-pilot on income support, living on stale cereal. The same is true in the fling-wing world. I am leaving the military after 18 years as a rotary pilot, admittedly with a lot of experience (5000hrs+, 4900 multi-engine, 4500 Captain, NVG/IRE etc etc). I was offered positions worldwide and am moving to a chief pilot job on £140k per annum, with accommodation provided - not many FW pilots earn that, believe me. So whilst rotary is not the gold plated path to steak dinners, it does not have to be the way of the impoverished either.:cool: (Need the shades - it's very sunny where I'm going - no surprise on that sort of salary)

[Thomas coupling]

Chopabeefer - care to enlighten us on the venue...or do we know why you will be earning 'blood' money???:suspect:
PS: You get what you paid for....................

[chopabeefer]

Err - what a daft post TC. Blood money? WTF??? I will be teaching SAR, on 139's, for a very friendly (and rich) country in the Far East. Why so negative TC? Is it really that bad?

[Thomas coupling]

It wasn't meant to be negative. I incorrectly assumed you were going to A.
Presumably you are going to the UAE?
Good luck and well done for landing a very well paid rotary job. Hope you can cope with the local mentality:ugh:

[stickysunrise]

look after your tail rotor, chopabeefer! Doha, GHC AW139:eek:

[chopabeefer]

Wondered when then would click. Yes, FAR east - new operation, new setup - my 1st job is to write the syllabus - it's a blank sheet so far.

[Soave_Pilot]

I guess you will also have to ask yourself if you're willing to put more time and money on it at this stage to be "employable", and intruct for a while to build up your time, and it seems you already have some time as fixed wing wich i dought it would make much a difference now, maybe only later if you have some IMC, IFR time to fly bigger ships.

If you think you won't be professionaly happy as a fixed wing pilot perhaps you should do a 90 degree bank and go in the other direction:}