Jetstar to start recruiting

[High_To_Low]

So does anyone have any concrete information on the numbers they are taking over the next 6 months/year and what sort of contracts/EBAs they are rumoured to offer for the Aussie bases?
See on the recruitment site instead of Jetstar australia/NZ/Sing being individual it's all been put under a single 'Jetstar group' with some rather interesting dot points that make up minimum requirements.
Going to be interesting times ahead!

[The Kelpie]

Perhaps they think that there will soon be a cadet shortage??

Re the minimums:

A person will not be appointed unless Jetstar is satisfied that the person's employment with Jetstar will at all times be subject only to those industrial instruments which bind Jetstar at the time it considers the person's application.

As this is a 'Group' appointment it is JQ's view that the only industrial instrument that Jetstar Group is bound by is the Modern Air Pilots Award 2010. It is 'considering applications' before they have to appear against AFAP and AIPA before Fair Work Australia and they get told that the EBA extends to all Australian Jetstar Companies!!

A devious move - not sure it will stick though!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

ps Minimums seem terribly high considering they are letting 200 hour cadets have a bash in the right hand seat. If 200 hours is really the minimum experience required to do the job anything higher would be nothing short of descrimination or is it just double standards??

Hey Bruce, If you want to do things the European way then don't just pick and choose which parts you like and which parts you don't. I Europe minimum hours for recruitment are virtually non existant as long as you have the licence and ratings.

[High_To_Low]

Hi kelpie

That was the statement I was talking about..does that mean all the new aussie hires will be on separate contracts and not the EBA?

[The Kelpie]

Hi to Low

That is what they are trying to do. An attempt is being made to attract applications from potential new hires into a Company called 'Jetstar Group' under a bastardised Award rather than the EBA.

The devil is in the detail, it is not appointed candidates it is all candidates that are even considered. I would imagine that is order to 'satisfy' them prior to appointment you will be asked to sign a legally binding undertaking to such an effect.

I understand AFAP and Jetstar have an appointment with Fairwork very soon. but any finding of the Commissioner may be affected by the presence of a seperate legally binding undertaking entered into freely, however this will depend of the content of any such undertaking being entered into.

BEWARE!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[High_To_Low]

So what about the guys that have been on the hold file for the past year who were told during the initial phone interview that they are interviewing for an Aussie base, on the Aussie EBA, with a base pay of xxx.??
Will they fall under this new system or will they be given what they interviewed for?
Is it even legal under FWA to do this??

[The Kelpie]

Not sure of the specifics in that case but would have thought, given their past performance that it is unlikely that JQ will honour what has been said previously.

If it were me in charge of JQ and I had the same agenda as those in these positions now (not my true values) I would be emptying the hold file and inviting those previously successful candidates to re-apply and advising them that by re-applying their applications would be looked on favourably.

Then piss off the EBA guys to the point where they eventually all leave. I call it EBA cleansing!!!

Or am I being too synical??

The Kelpie

ps My feeling is that 'Jetstar Group' is being set up as no more than a pilot labour agency that has a written contract to supply pilots to the airline companies within the group. This gives the airline companies the option to hire and fire individuals as it pleases as the contracts of employment are between the pilot and the 'Agency'. The Agency has a legitimate reason to sack you because 'the client does not want you'. Or, if the 'Agency' loses the contract for say 'Australian bases' due to a downturn in work or seasonal fluctuationis it may be offerred 'New Zealand Bases' and all pilots have to relocate or face losing their job with the 'Agency' .No different to the Parc Aviations of the industry.

Australian IR system undermined!!!

[High_To_Low]

Let's hope that is not the case kelpie and all of us regardless of whether we are on the hold or not get the Aussie EBA!
Positive thinking!!

[The Kelpie]

edited last post with a ps.

As I said 'Beware of man bearing gifts!!'

[Going Boeing]

As Qantas/Jetstar management have been working on moving flying to non Oz based pilots, it seems strange that they suddenly start employing pilots for Australian bases. It could be in anticipation of a backlash from the politicians as a result of the Senate Inquiry (thanks Senator X) but another possibility is to quickly increase the number of pilots available to be used as strike breakers when the QF mainline LH pilots commence PIA in their attempt to secure jobs and career progression.

All Jetstar pilots need to consider their response very carefully because the only way that we'll be able to have long careers as Australian based pilots is to stand united against this narcissistic management who appear hell bent on destroying this great company.

[Ted Nugent]

Another little warning, Jetstar group pilots WILL NOT be placed on the current seniority list or any other seniority list!

[Stiff Under Carriage]

Agree with you High To Low, unfortunately many of us here myself included whilst think it is disgusting, know that someone will come along and accept it. It is that individual/s that with ultimately bring down the whole pyramid of fair work and fair pay in aviation.

Your right, it just keeps getting worse!

[The Kelpie]

.....and hence why Joyce doesn't want the 'Job Security' clauses in the EBA's that would require the company to ensure that any contract for services it enters into with an employment agency stipulates that the Agency must pay the same rates of pay / conditions as those directly employed.

Is the big picture becoming any clearer??

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Tidbinbilla]

"Aircrews Control" Mk.II, Kelpie?

One wonders whether the same individuals are involved?

[The Kelpie]

Well it does have some round about connection as it is the same company as Impulse Airlines Pty Ltd who was perhaps the first to try out this arrangement.

It is just with the airline name it is not just so obvious.

From the ASIC website:

NameJETSTAR GROUP PTY LIMITED
ACN003 901 353
ABN64 003 901 353
Type (http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.nsf/byheadline/About+the+National+Names+Index?opendocument#12) Australian Proprietary Company, Limited By Shares
Registration Date20/11/1989
Next Review Date18/01/2012
Status (http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.nsf/byheadline/About+the+National+Names+Index?opendocument#12) Registered
Locality of Registered OfficeMascot NSW 2020
Jurisdiction (http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.nsf/byheadline/About+the+National+Names+Index?opendocument) Australian Securities & Investments Commissionhttp://www2.search.asic.gov.au/_images/hr.gif
Previous StateNSW
Previous Number46644711
http://www2.search.asic.gov.au/_images/hr.gif
Former Name(s)
TEAM JETSTAR PTY LIMITED
IMPULSE COMMUNICATIONS PTY LIMITED
AIR FREIGHT AND DISTRIBUTION SERVICES PTY LIMITED
IMPULSE FREIGHT & DISTRIBUTION SERVICES PTY LIMITED
IMPULSE FREIGHT SERVICES PTY. LIMITED
IMPULSE AIRLINES PTY LIMITED
IMPULSE TRANSPORTATION GROUP PTY. LIMITED
IMPULSE AIR CHARTER PTY. LIMITED
WINGDEED PTY. LIMITED

Interesting that the previous name was Team Jetstar, the Cabin Crew company and look what has happenned to them since.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Lookleft]

No those individuals are being shafted equally with the rest of the J* pilots. The people organising this next chapter of "How stupid are You?" make the Impulse/ACC people look like Mother Teresa!

GB I think the reason they are recruiting is that they have caught themselves out with the cadet debacle and have Captains running out of 365 day totals. If LH do take PIA the J* pilots will be subject to secondary boycott restrictions so won't be legally allowed to stop work but that doesn't mean you won't be supported! :ok:

[High_To_Low]

So anyone know whether all this is possible with FWA rules in Oz etc or is more so a scare tactic to see just how low they can drop T&C's??

[Mr. Hat]

Hold file?:ugh:

You gotta be kidding.

Some at J* are so inspired they are going back to driving props or leaving the industry altogether.

Keep your day job.

[Aussie]

Who would want to go and work for these guys anyway..... dismal T&Cs :ugh:

[ciport]

This smells alot like the way Impulse recruiting was operated in the 90's I remember getting letters back from them that went along these lines. "Thank you for your application your information has been assesed by

Carry Box P/L
Dust Box P/L
And 4 or 5 odd sounding names."

It never made much sense to me but I think it had something to do with the fact that as an impulse pilot you didn't actually work for impulse but some sort of contract company.

[ciport]

Well jetstar is to start recuriting

"Jetstar captains approaching 365 day maximums"

QF short haul pilots approaching 365 day minimums.

After the war everyone got better than the 29.27% payrise because the contract was based on 55 hours.

We've all just lost 20% of those gains because no one ever bothered to lock in a better minimum.

[Mr. Hat]

Imagine working for a company that spends 25 out of 24 hours trying to find a way around the agreed eba conditions. You think its bad now? Just imagine how bright the future will be :ok:.

[breakfastburrito]

Virgin is a viable option, particularly for 737 FO's with zero prospect of moving to another type. Those that jump first get the best advantage.

[porch monkey]

And still they'll come........ That is the sad part:(

[rmcdonal]

Bit of a misleading title. :suspect:

breakfastburrito: I was of the impression that all new Virgin entrants would be onto the E-Jet?

[Jack Ranga]

Porch is right. If Jetstar started an ICUS scheme with no promise of a job at the end they would come in droves.

[breakfastburrito]

rmcdonal, I wonder what the difference between QF B737 base pay (realistically in perpetuity) vs flying a full line E-Jet with virgin, with the prospect of getting back to B737 is? That is the question.

[arena1]

Does anyone have any concrete info as to whether applicants will be placed on the Aussy EBA or individual contracts????

[Jack Ranga]

ICUS is next mate.

[waren9]

There is no concrete info because Jetstar themselves dont know what they're doing.

"Modern Award contract" only offered because the "paid in NZ-live and work in Aus" cadet scheme got a bit embarrassing in the S. Inquiry.

They are living day to day in there and what one applicant gets told and posts here will be different to the next applicant.

There are no promises, there is nothing concrete, even a contract you do sign may be whipped out from under you ala the NZ cadets.

Get some very solid legal advice of your own before signing your name to anything Jetstar.

[Mr. Hat]

I guess the plan is to sit on the limit of what the Federal Government will accept at the time (keep pushing) until eventually you have 15 year old students from impoverished contries getting paid in rupiah sitting in the RHS.

[The Green Goblin]

The plan is to trash conditions enough, destroy the moral of the Pilots, turn over most of the EBA guys and if they want to stay, they have to sign a contract for an upgrade etc.

After it turns out less and less Pilots will put up with this crap and they can't get enough Pilots, they will cry poor to the minister and have cadets and pay to fly schemes of their choosing. This is the end game.

What we need to do is to get some sort of representation on the board ASAP.

It's already been proven that management have no social conscience, and no problems telling lies in a senate enquiry. How are unions supposed to negotiate with these people in good faith? How can anybody believe what they say?

[WorthWhat]

Board representation not backed by share holders won’t change anything.

[jarden]

Are JQ going on a big expansion, so may need a few more staff. How many new deliveries do they expect to get this year?

[aulglarse]

Does anyone know what is the AFAP doing under the current climate?

[The Kelpie]

Aulglarse

thread drift but...

..on the contrary I think AFAP shoudl be more open to members about what they are doing. Obviously the details may be commercially sensitive but they could certainly keep members appraised generally about what they are doing. Silence gives the impression they are doing very little although I doubt this is the case.

I understand AFAP and Jetstar have an appointment with Fairwork Australia very soon in relation to JQ's attempts to have pilots flying from Australian bases under some form of agreement other that the agreed EBA.

Hopefully they will brief us soon.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Mr. Hat]

fair bit of silence during some of the goings on during the senate inquiry...

[High_To_Low]

So when exactly is the senate report supposed to become made available publicly?
Maybe JQ is waiting to see the findings...

[Roger Greendeck]

The question is, what are the Jetstar Pilot Group' doing about it? The most common complaint on PPRuNe over the years is that people will take reduced conditions. The inference being, if not stated outright, that those on the outside should take the hit in order to sustain conditions on the inside. Remember the conditions only have to be better than what an applicant is in now, not what it's like compared to those already employed on conditions no longer available to applicants.

If those in Jetstar don't want their conditions eroded or for that matter the pilots in any airline it is up to the pilots working there to protect the conditions.

[The Guru]

The question is, what are the Jetstar Pilot Group' doing about it? The most common complaint on PPRuNe over the years is that people will take reduced conditions......If those in Jetstar don't want their conditions eroded or for that matter the pilots in any airline it is up to the pilots working there to protect the conditions.

Roger, This is exactly what The Kelpie (http://www.pprune.org/members/344103-the-kelpie) and others have been doing. There has been no shortage of education to the industry and public of the degradation of conditions, tax avoidance, and offshoring strategy that Jetstar have undertaken.

The problem is these warnings go unheeded and then join the company with unrealistic expectations...and then this happens with a http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/450174-jetstar-cadet-fired.html. You cannot join and then expect better terms once you are through the front door, and a poor attitude, and an expectation that you are better than your peers will not gain you any respect in this company.:ugh:

[Roger Greendeck]

Agreed that a poor attitude and an expectation that you are better than your peers does you no favours and I agree that there are guys here and in other places trying to get the message out about what the conditions actually are but any strategy that relies on people outside the company 'just saying no!' is doomed to failure.

You say that you can't join and expect it to get better, but not joining and hoping it gets better isn't working so well either. Would a pilot who decided not to join Jetstar two years ago in silent protest be better off if he or she joined now?

[The Guru]

Well the answer to that question is YES. After the Senate exposure, Jetstar are being forced to recruit more pilots (see thread title) and do so on the EBA. So pilots who join in the coming months on the EBA will probably have a seniority number, have the opportunity to be based within in Australia rather than be forced overseas, have better career prospects, and the opportunity to undertake command training, than those who signed a shonky eleventh hour contract without any protection or assurances.

[Roger Greendeck]

Even if it is on the EBA they will be on the same EBA they could have signed on to a couple of years ago, now they are just a couple of years lower on the seniority list.

Your assumption that they will be on the EBA is based on what? All the applications for Australian positions were closed on 29 Apr and the new job is for Jetstar Group, not Jetstar Airways.

[breakfastburrito]

The reality of the situation is this is a dysfunctional market. Two employers (QantStar group & Virgin) employ the vast majority of RPT pilots in this country, and expanding (Network aviation & further inevitable consolidation). QantStar have demonstrated they are willing to exploit this market power to the nth degree. This is a classic act of bastardry & exploitation, simply because they can. They will not stop, they have almost absolute power. As we all know, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

If you look at the current cadet situation, in effect, a cadet is donating 8 years unpaid, of their lives to a commercial organisation, for commercial gain. You can be sure, QantStar will shove as many fools down this pipeline as they can find. Everyone in the pipeline has an incentive to grossly over-train, it is to their commercial advantage, when the fools are footing the bill. They will flood the market.

These cadets are blinded by an A380 Captains pay packet. The reality is, for them, the best they ever hope to earn is the Air Pilots 2010 pay rates, but even that will be a pipe dream.

There will need to be an enormous amount of pain to the fools, this will happen in time. Unfortunately very few learn through insight, most only respond to the pain stimuli. Many will need to be sacrificed, the pain will need to be widely felt, and very public.

The effect of this cadet pipeline will be to reduce T&C for current low jet time pilots. Unfortunately this will not change as the fools queue up to be slaughtered in the cadet system.

Any pilot applying to the jetstar will in effect be competing against cadets in a reverse auction. Think about that, a cadet with a 200K+ debt and near-instantaneous bankruptcy is bidding against you for work.

Current low time pilots (non-cadets) should consider either cutting their losses and leaving the industry or going to Asia. There are a myriad of opportunities in the resources sector, paying significantly more than they will ever earn in this industry. It will not take you long to recoup your training costs.

What has happened in Europe (cadets bankrupted) & the US (pilots on food stamps) will happen here. It will happen because there is commercial incentive to do so, and a continued willingness by fools to only see the bright lights. Unfortunately for those that have completed a CPL in the last five years, you have been a victim of either bad timing and/or poor industry due diligence. PPRuNe has documented this continuous descent, to those that chose to see it.

[The Kelpie]

High_To_Low
*
So when exactly is the senate report supposed to become made available publicly?
Maybe JQ is waiting to see the findings...
*


The report is being tabled and presented to Senate tomorrow. It will be posted to the APH website as early as tomorrow afternoon once the session has closed.

Incoming!!

The Kelpie

[Mr. Hat]

QantStar will shove as many fools down this pipeline as they can find

Indeed it's in their interest to make as many leave as possible. They'll generate coin out of the scheme and it will be a generous source of income for years to come. New recruits will come and run out of enthusiasm like the energiser bunny.

Current low time pilots (non-cadets) should consider either cutting their losses and leaving the industry or going to Asia.

Yep get some options before wife and mortgage turn up. I've left my run too late now just sitting nervously hoping for the best!

[Muff Hunter]

Group Contract has been confirmed.

Will employ 50 pilots starting from next week.

Base will be DRW/PER/+

Contract will be PART TIME ONLY..........(PAY AROUND $55K)

4 weeks leave, 5 sick days, no cpi increase, no roster request, infinate stby, roster changes at jetstars will discretion, 8 days off per month,

need i go on!!

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

THIS INFO IS DIRECT FROM HEAD OFFICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mcgrath50]

God I hope that's a lie...

And talking to a cadet said he was sure things would get better and he would be in a position to take it.... yeah right!

Get out before the costly trip overseas for a type rating boys!

[Muff Hunter]

Believe me or not

THE INFO IS CORRECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

other parts of the contract are still in the pipeline or at least have not been revealed yet....

The contract is based on the Air Pilots Award at Part time rates...

[Gnadenburg]

How much sick leave do Jetstar pilots get per year? Do they take it?

Just wondering how you could get out of bed each day for this lot.

[manfred]

What's the advantage of having a pilot work part-time?
Surely it would be more efficient (cost effective) to have your pilots flying at their maximum available hours?
:confused:

[Normasars]

Turn it up Gnadenburg. After all, this is all part of the "spirit of Australia". What a #### of an outfit. I would be embaressed to even associate with anything at all related to JQ. Actually, this will be the watershed for the rest of the industry. Make no mistake, IF JQ can get away with this kind of bastardry and exploitation, the rest will follow. :yuk:

"But that's ok , I am flying a jet" :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::mad::mad::mad:

[gutso-blundo]

That sounds exactly like the contract I'm on.

Except I fly piston twins... :ugh:

[puff]

55K a year in Darwin - what a deal, whats next casuals like the flight attendants ?

Someone at the top end probably said look at the money we're saving with the casual FAs ! - lets do the same with pilots

[no one]

What a joke, I was on 45k a year in Darwin about 4 years ago flying piston's and now for barely any more I get the privilege to fly a jet.

Well when they ring me in the next few weeks it will be a very very easy NO.

no one

[Artificial Horizon]

Trust me guys, they will fill the spots no problem. Shiney jet syndrome will win over, Jetstar NZ just offered the wonderful opportunity in AKL to transfer to the A330 for the SAME pay as a FO on the A320, union said don't take it, other pilots said don't take it, but 10 First Officers signed up on the first day just to get the A330 type rating :ugh: We are our own worst enemies :ugh:

[breakfastburrito]

Where shiny jet syndrome goes, dead working stiff sure to follow.

[Roger Greendeck]

I am not sure where the $55K would come from. The award minimum is $71397 plus additionals which I work out to be $91924.77 plus allowances for meals uniforms etc. If there is a plan to use part time rates then things such as 'infinite standby' wont be available to the company because that the staff wont be full time.

[Eyon]

I appreciate this is sort of off topic, and if anyone can PM me a reply to keep the topic on track that would be good.

However, I was seriously considering applying for OAA's JetStar Cadet Program (http://www.oaa.com/pages/training_courses/ab_initio/jetstar-asia.php). I am an Australian citizen but lived in England all my life, but would happily consider upping and leaving this place if this course and subsequent job was worthwhile. Reading this thread though it seems that I'd be wasting my time? Over here, obviously, nobody knows much about jetstar so I'm looking for opinion that they are either a bad company or a good company to work for once qualified. I'd obviously be tied in for "x" amount of time, and by reading this thread I'm guessing I should stay away rather than risk 5 years (or however many) of poor employee treatment from them.

Any comments?

Thanks

[breakfastburrito]

Eyon: Start HERE (http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/419883-jetstar-interview.html#post5801290), then HERE (http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/419883-jetstar-interview-2.html#post5801939) then peruse the CTC wingS thread PART 1 (http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/144926-ctc-wings-scheme-thread.html) & PART 2 (http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/250640-ctc-wings-cadets-thread-part-2-a.html).
The consider that the instant you sign on the dotted line you begin accruing a debt that will exceed AUD $200,000. If you are checked to line as first officer in Australia, you could expect to earn AUD$55,000+ to live in Darwin. If you are posted to New Zealand, you will earn AUD$25,000+. In both cases you will be required to pay approx AUD$12,000 per annum for your endorsement for 6 years. You will still have a debt of approximately AUD$100,000 to the Australian government (FEE-HELP), which will be deducted as additional tax.

Please do your own due diligence before you consider this cadetship. In my opinion, this deal is financial suicide, it is nothing short of debt bondage. Search through my previous posts (http://www.pprune.org/search.php?do=finduser&u=234141), I have provided an enormous volume of information on how this scheme operates to YOUR detriment. Take your time, it will take you a couple of months to get your head around everything. Do not make a rushed decision, as once you sign up, there is no going back without severe financial hardship.

[Eyon]

Thanks Burrito, I assumed as much. I applied for a Flybe caddetship here in the UK (and got through to final 12 with interviews with the airline but didnt make it down to a single badly answered question, learnt my lesson there!) and the finances were appalling if looking in the long term, I guessed J* would be no different. Sadly the cadetships are nicely dressed up but when you look deeper into them it doesn't work out as viable as other routes.

Done a bit more reading into Jetstar since my original post and it doesn't look an airline I particularly want to give 6 years of my working life away to. I think I'll fund and pursue my carreer another way. I was considering this cadetship strongly for the last few months but have recently having doubts, I think this mornings research has confirmed them!

[T80]

Hahaha
What a disgrace that is !!!
Seems they trying to get to smart for their own boots. Employed part time but expected to work full time hours :ugh:
No thanks happy to remain in current paying job than take a pay cut for that garbage. I would be very surprised if any fellow pilots I know would take this up and they would be the turboprop/piston twin drivers with well over minimums!!
Cadets for management anyone??? Bunch of amateurs are onestar :yuk:

[High_To_Low]

It'll definitely be a no from me...

[The Kelpie]

I guessed J* would be no different.

Eyon - you're right!!

The one common denominator in all these schemes is:

OXFORD AVIATION ACADEMY :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

Petteford has demonstrated that he is very competent in selling airlines the product he has to sell!! It doesn't matter what airline, the business model is exactly the same.

Just in case you are wondering he doesn't sell flight training to individuals, although this is a very lucrative by-product as far as his company is concerned given the inflated prices his organisation charges.

Anyone that calls an individual who is not attached to an Airline brandd scheme a 'white tail' is certainly not interested in you as a customer who is spending a significant amount on money, you are just an income stream - it is as impersonal as that!! Nothing personal, just business!!

He actually sells a concept to airlines that can provide them with a neutral cost training solution in which the Airline has to bear no training risk. This provides the Airline with a bunch of highly motivated individuals who have no choice but to yield to unacceptable Ts and Cs and being treated like sh1t and ensures that Oxford can continue to badge their APPFO course with a designer airline branding (albeit with no tie in). This allows them to charge above market rates and ensure a continued supply of Gen Y individuals with Shiney White Jet Syndrome who do not yet understand that money is hard earned and easily spent to get themselves into a very significant debt for the sake of dreams.

What allows him to get away with this? YOU!!!

The thing is that that the wheels are starting to fall off. Everyone worldwide is waking up to these scam schemes that OAA are in the middle of. Check out the negative comments about the MPL progamme that Petteford talked Easyjet into elsewhere on PPRune, this provides a good snapshot of how everyone feels.

Good Luck in your deliberations

The Kelpie

[The Kelpie]

Employed part time but expected to work full time hours

Part Time - What a joke!!!

Ok, if Part Time is the go does that mean:

Duty hours are also Pro Rated down from the standard 38?

Minimum days off per week are pro-rated up from 2 days per week?

Stand Bys are pro-rated down?

etc. etc.

Does that also mean that Jetstar only get a proportion of an individuals FDL given they need to find alternative flying work in their spare time to make the salary up to anything that would enable a reasonable standard of living?

Where are AFAP on this? The silence coming from that camp whilst Jetstar continue to laugh in your faces is deafening. I think it is time to tell us what you are actually doing.

The Kelpie

ps anyone got a copy of the contract I could have a look at? I have an early draft but I am looking for the current version. Pm me for email if you can help.

[Gnadenburg]

Has there been a runner at Jetstar yet? Probably a totally foreign concept in Australia. But I've seen it in travels where pilots just lose it and don't show up for work after a night stop somewhere. Etiquette dictates you leave your uniform nicely folded on the hotel bed.

Jetstar management will get the pilots they deserve. I'll pi$$ myself laughing if I hear of a Jetstar pilot doing a runner- we would have hit the bottom!

[international hog driver]

Gnads is on the money:ok:

I too have been thinking "has their been a runner yet"? just the other day when chatting to a mate about JQ cancellations and general crew discontent.

Runners were pretty common a few years back o/s when guys on crappy T&Cs were given the opportunity back home on something better. Sadly those days are gone.

The day the confirmed news of the #1 JQ runner in made.... is the day you can mark as the lowest point so far in the downward spiral of Australian aviation. Forget 89, forget the capitulation of the VQ pilot body..........

This is it:mad:

[breakfastburrito]

Gnad's, anecdotally a "runner" has already been done in HNL by a A330 Captain during his training sectors several years ago, going back to EK.

The problem for an Australian citizen doing a runner is that j* will vigorously pursue any pilot with an outstanding debt:Pilot who failed test must pay for training: Court (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/424952-pilot-who-failed-test-must-pay-training-court.html). This case sets a precedent.
So if the runner can't cough up the dough, bankruptcy proceeding can be initiated, and the possibility of having their passport suspended or travel restrictions imposed, a job elsewhere is out of the question. This is the basis of the debt bondage for the cadets (debt that cannot be repaid unless they work for whatever j* deem acceptable T&C). This is not a negotiated agreement, it is one dictated solely by the debt holder (j*). This is a decent back towards the 17th & 18th century, with slavery & peonage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peon#Peonage) rearing its head.

The "part-time pay is full time work" demonstrates they will aggressively exploit every loophole in the pursuit of bonuses.

Oh, and yes I believe HNL running man followed the folded shirt protocol, to a tee.

[international hog driver]

:} GOLD..... PURE GOLD..:ok:

[Jack Ranga]

if this is true words cannot describe how sickening those people (if you can call them that) are in management...



There is one group of people sicker than management.


It'll definitely be a no from me...


You'll be a lonely man.

[Di_Vosh]

Where are AFAP on this? The silence coming from that camp whilst Jetstar continue to laugh in your faces is deafening. I think it is time to tell us what you are actually doing.


Kelpie, you could always ring them and ask. Or look at the April edition of airwaves.

DIVOSH!

P.S. You could also ask AIPA. AIPA claim that most J* members are AIPA members and have recently changed from AFAP to AIPA. Ask them what they're doing to help their new members...

[Lookleft]

DIVOSH it was AIPA that exposed the Cadet contract farce when a cadet went to AIPA and not the AFAP for assistance. You have to ask where has the AFAP been during the Senate Inquiry. A sad 8 page submission does not suggest that they are serious in addressing the threats to the pilot profession that the Qantas Group is determined to pursue.

As it is their name on the Jetstar EBA they should be a lot more visible in challenging Jetstar's attempts to circumvent it.

[waren9]

I believe AFAP are about to meet Jetstar in FWA regarding employment within Australia on other than the EBA.

Whilst the rumour of parallel contracts had been about for a while, they had to wait for it to actually happen before proceedings could begin.

Perhaps an AFAP member can add more?

AIPA and AFAP have crossed swords in the past regarding protecting the "black and white" of the document, it would now appear AFAP are due some credit for consistency in this regard. I believe they will try to argue the EBA does provide coverage for all pilots employed in Australia.

[27/09]

Meanwhile Jetstars partners in crime are full steam ahead recruiting some more slaves.

NZ's top pilot training company ramps up national recruiting drive | infonews.co.nz New Zealand's local news community (http://www.infonews.co.nz/news.cfm?id=66805) Top training company my A*se.

I don't know how powers that be at CTC and Oxford for that matter sleep at night especially afer all the pain and anguish they have caused in the UK. Now they are hell bent on causing that same pain and anguish here.

[otta here]

I was in Halls Creek and was with simular hours as you and yes I would of given my left nut and eaten a **** sandwich to have a chance at a cadetship back then...having said that I still look back at the crack fondly and would love to have my old job if only for a week. :O

[PPRuNeUser0182]

That's all well and good, normal human instincts/reactions and so on...

But -> this pay is after forking out for an endorsement? 35k +/-? Where does that come from. What about when it comes to having a kid, a mortgage etc. And all the other usual bread and butter items we have been known to accumulate in life. How can it work?! (She (or he) had better be rich perhaps!!! :ok:)

Short term yes I get your point but long term ... gee whiz that's a deep hole :(

[BlackPrince77]

Eyon, I don't see what's so bad about the J* program. I've talked to the head of their pilot recruitment and other influential people who work with J*. So far the longest a cadet has waited to get a job after completion of their training is 3 weeks. They will get their ATPL's in 3-4 years and be doing roughly 800-900 hours a year flying. They will be on a junior first officer salary which if you followed the senate enquiry was said to be $87,000 a year (this isn't the base salary though, it includes overtime etc benefits). After they have enough hours to get ATPL's they will be on regular J* first officer salaries which are just under $100,000 per year. I was also informed that they will likely be offered command positions after the 6 years, so that will again increase their salary to just under $170,000 a year.

J* have over 40 orders for new aircraft at the moment, the crew to plane ratio is 6:1. There will be plenty of positions available for cadets. Airlines are not looking into ga any more, especially overseas. Its only in Australia and USA that ga is the natural progression to an airline. In Europe, cadet programs have been in place for over 20 years! They have proven to make great pilots, actually better than ga pilots. Cadets are trained from the start to fly as a team, as a crew, and don't spend years in the outback developing bad habits. The hundred's or thousands of hours you accumulate in ga are not very valuable. Airlines won't care weather you have 1000 hours in ga or 3000 hours in ga.

Another common alternate in Australia is to do a 3-4 year university degree which you get your CPL and IR at the end. This costs around $130,000. The J* course costs around $200,000 total including A320 endorsement in HK. More specifically the phase 1 before you get your A320 endorsement costs $124,000 and that includes CPL, IR, Frozen ATPL, gas turbine time. Even if you didn't get a job in J* after for a highly unlikely reason as another GFC you'd have qualifications which prepare you better for ga than the uni alternate. Also the Phase 1 of the J* ab-initio course only takes 18 months not 3-4 years.

[The Green Goblin]

What utter crap BP77 :ugh:

The GA guys start out in a single engine aeroplane, and at the end of their stint after flying piston twins, turbine singles and twins are generally regional airline captains on Dash 8s, Brasilia's, Metros, Saabs etc.

They are a far better product with multi crew command experience than a know it all cadet who has never had any command experience other than 70 hours in a light aircraft.

I had been operating in a CAR217 operation in GA using simulators every 6 months for my checks. I had been exposed to this for some time before I even started flying for a regional airline.

The reason Europe has cadets is they have no GA. If they did, the system would be the same as here or the US.

[BlackPrince77]

I see what your saying. I am just expressing what i've been told. Your probably right about the GA, I'm sure a lot of them make great pilots, but to get into a cadet program you have to pass aptitude testing. You can't be of the same tier as the rest of the flying population. With only 15 or so spots with each intake with J* and thousands of applicants, you have to be the elite to get a spot, so its quite likely cadets would make some pretty damn good pilots.

Regardless which produces better pilots, the facts and figures I outlined above doesn't make the program as bad as people say. If I as missing something on this program, please let me know :)

[breakfastburrito]

I am just expressing what i've been told.
That says it all - you know jack sh!t! What the the hell would we know!! Christ all mighty.

Listen champ I've seen everything from fighter pilots through to GA through to cadets from the back seat the right seat & left seat, and you know what I can't tell the difference between any of them. I couldn't have picked their background if they have more than a couple of years on type.
You have been bought the bullsh!t propaganda hook line and sinker. You, the j* cadet represent profit & bonuses - that is the only reason they are doing it. Forget your elitist bullsh!t. your actually the chump! You are the pasty at the table.

[The Green Goblin]

BP77

You're still speaking crap. In fact, it sounds like it came straight off the back of an Oxford brochure.

Any Pilot wishing to work for Jetstar for instance, has to pass the same aptitude testing, whether cadet or EX GA.

As for the cadets? They need to draw a line in the sand somewhere in regards to entrance criteria to get the starting list a little smaller. Usually this will be in he way of high school results and subjects.

The way people talk about GA they make it sound like these Pilots step out of C210s from working in the Kimberley and front up to fly an A320.

This is not, nor has ever been the case.

GA Pilots start out in a single engine aeroplane. They accrue 1000 hours or so and an instrument rating before seeking multi engine work. After they have 500 multi engine command, they seek multi engine multi crew turbine experience. Once they have a year or two of this (generally in a 217 operation), they are up for a command. This will usually see them in the vicinity of 2500 hours, 1500 multi engine hours with 500 command and 1000 multi crew turbine.

They will usually have apps in with airlines at this stage and hold a full ATPL. While they are waiting for that call, they are accruing multi engine turbine command time and usually have over 3000 hours by the time they get a Airline offer.

Lets also be honest, while they are working in the regional airline, they are flying the same approaches, the same SIDS and STARS, under the same IFR regulations with similar calls, automation CRM and check and training.

It's all about small steps.

Transitioning to a jet airline from here is learning about flying a jet, and new company SOPs. They are not learning how to operate in a multi crew or how to operate as a Pilot.

Think about this before you shoot from the hip.

[tothepoint]

BP77,

the program you are missing is called

'The Big Picture'

it starts at 9:30pm - obviously past your bedtime.

Please don't consider yourself an elitest by paying 200k for a slot in a shiny jet. There are many intelligent people that see past this scam!

Consider this - GA jobs a plenty.
Go to a local flying school and fork out 60K for a licence maybe a tad more for ATPL theory. Work a part time job earning a quid to help pay for it.
GA up north is still happening and jobs are not that hard to come by.
Enjoy the single engine, multi engine progression.

Most of all enjoy the friendships and life experience you'll have. That will last longer than the time you wait to fly your fancy jet for a sub standard (in terms of employment conditions) airline.

Along with doing it that way you also might be able to borrow some cash and buy a house (not be debt laden) without being a burden on your parents!

Its not a harder path its a different rewarding path and you'll end up in an airline doing your command there abouts the same time your cadet buddies will be. In saying that I can assure you that the decisions you make as a captain will be a reflection or which way you go!

[27/09]

BP
After they have enough hours to get ATPL's Are you able to explain to us how the cadets will get enough P in C hours for an ATPL? It may be possible in OZ certainly not here in NZ, without getting some flying other than co pilot time.

[waren9]

27/09

If it possible in Oz, then ergo its possible in NZ

T T M R A

:mad:

[Stiff Under Carriage]

We know what Jet* recruitment staff are like. Sounded like rife that was simply just repeated by someone who was gullible enough to believe it.

With regards to appitude testing, BP, that means nothing, I have been involved with a 217 org for a very long time, I have trained Cadets who have been through "aptitude testing" and believe me, they are of the same tier as everyone else. Yes you do get the good ones (cadets) but you also get cadets that just should not be there, and let me tell you the majority, simply should not be there, they can be extremely difficult.

Often its those that have had to work hard to get the airline job that put in the effort and have the extreme desire to make something of it, not the person who has the most money lying around.

[PPRuNeUser0163]

Maybe someone can explain this- the jq cadetship as well as the Rex one give applicants a maximum of 70 pic or whatever they accumulate up to cpl, but definitely not 100 or anywhere near it.

Correct me if im wrong but I am positive you need 100 pic to start with sd you can only count 150 ICUS towards atpl making the sum of 250 to get the full atpl.. Qantaslink has this requirement even.. The fact jetstar/Rex don't do this for ab initios ( and Rex don't even train them for atpls) sends a clear message to me- no command for a very very very long time! Also- your 200k stated before is gonna be plus the 30 command more a jetstar cadet will need to pay on light ac out of their OWN pocket.. So let's say maybe 6k? Ahahh

[waren9]

At the risk of labouring something pointless

BP77 appears to be (previous posts) a very young RAAF fast jet aspirant that was knocked back for maturity, despite apparently scoring well in other facets.

Which puts his comments on this thread in to perspective.

[Muff Hunter]

BP777

One thing that recruiting failed to tell you was YOU WONT BE ON THE EBA

so all the pay rises you mention are not applicable.

you will be on a contract that shares no resemblence to the EBA, it barely resembles the Modern Award..

[Roger Greendeck]

Can someone please explain to me how it can, under the FWA regime, not resemble the award or be an improvement on it? It is my understanding that a company and an individual can no longer trade conditions if it reduces them below the award?

[breakfastburrito]

Roger, no doubt they have teams of lawyers combing the 700+ pages of complex legislation for loopholes, and it looks like they have found one:
Barry Jackson from AIPA on the radio this morning - seems that the 4 cadets have been employed in Australia outside the EBA.

$57k per annum, no increase for 6 years, $80k in training costs to be repaid to the company.

How dumb can you be?
Post #1051 (http://www.pprune.org/6430051-post1051.html) by UnderneathTheRadar in Merged: Senate Inquiry

[Wing Root]

For nkand,

5.172 Aeronautical experience: minimum requirements (http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2010C00414/Html/Volume_2#param191)
(1)For the purposes of paragraph 5.165 (1) (f), a person’s aeronautical experience must consist of at least 1,500 hours of flight time that includes 750 hours as pilot of a registered aeroplane, or a recognised aeroplane.
(2) The 750 hours must include:
(a) any of the following:
(i) at least 250 hours of flight time as pilot in command;
(ii) at least 500 hours of flight time as pilot acting in command under supervision;
(iii) at least 250 hours of flight time, consisting of at least 70 hours of flight time as pilot in command and the balance as pilot acting in command under supervision; and
(b) at least 200 hours of cross‑country flight time; and
(c) at least 75 hours of instrument flight time; and
(d) at least 100 hours of flight time at night as pilot in command or as co‑pilot.
Getting the command time for the Australian ATPL is unfortunately a total non-issue now. Qantaslink have opened the gateway on this one. F/Os without an ATPL are logging ICUS while "Pilot Flying" in the RHS with any captain up to the amount required for the issue of an ATPL. All approved and signed off in the operations manual by CASA. Shouldn't be an issue for Jetstar and others to do the same eventually.

[Gnadenburg]

but to get into a cadet program you have to pass aptitude testing. You can't be of the same tier as the rest of the flying population. With only 15 or so spots with each intake with J* and thousands of applicants, you have to be the elite to get a spot, so its quite likely cadets would make some pretty damn good pilots.

That comment makes me sick.

J* Cadets are not elite pilots and in a low cost pilot environment will not be required to demonstrate high standards.

They are a vehicle to drive wages down by negating experience and ominously, via wage conditioning ie: I am getting double the Cadet wage gee I am on a good wicket!

Bogans with Bars. How many do they get BTW. One or Two?

[built4flying83]

What is actually happening?

They say generalisations don't help anyone.. but...lol

the "smartbum" cadet pilot: 18yo to mid twenties, wealthy parents, aspirations of fighter pilot but oz military have surplus of pilots now, so they now look at getting into a jet another way ASAP, enthusiastic, motivated and don't really care about guys who have slogged it out for 5-8yrs flying charter / instructing. They would like to but can't grasp how much personal development is achieved "out bush" and under rate it.
Easily molded into company culture.

the "grumpybum" ga/regional pilot: 25 to even 40 yo's, got into industry later than 18, due to finances, uni study or just being a ratbag :) slogged it out with multiple jobs and realised that flying is the way to go. Done alot of hard yards as a result. Might have gone through a couple of partners/wives due to dodgy places and pay. developed chip on the shoulder and a "we deserve a shot" mentality (justified) which might come across in the interview (not so good).

these two groups won't be able to agree on much, cadets show some respect, ga/regional pilots just keep breathing lol

[breakfastburrito]

wingroot, that is correct. However, the company ops manual must allow the logging of ICUS time, and any conditions attached to that logging.

Given the form of this mob, the ability to keep these cadets on a dirt cheap contract for 6 years it would be tempting for a bonus driven manager. Denying the ability to log ICUS time, or only allowing to be logged with approved captains would slow down the time to gain the ATPL. Of course, should that present a problem in the future, they could simply modify the policy as they see fit.

They could keep these cadets on a very short leash for a long time. Lets face it , they own them, lock, stock & barrel, they are indentured labor.

[KRUSTY 34]

Wing root has highlighted the way in which CASA facilitated the airlines prosecution of these scams by the recent changes to the ATPL. I touched on this subject about a year ago, and it's just another example of what "...an effective and rigorous regulator we have..." (Bruce Buchanan/giving evidence at the Senate Enquiry).

The reduction of non ICUS command from 100 hours down to 70 hours fits perfectly with the Cadet/MPL training scams. The raising of the total ICUS time from 250 hours to 500 is a cynical ploy to give the illusion of increasing the requirements. With the insane practice of a candidate being able to log ICUS from the RHS, with no formal supervision whatsoever, simply because they are flying the sector, its just a matter of an additional 4 or so months as a co-pilot to meet the mins. It's Game, Set, and Match for the airlines. Thankyou Ball boys, thankyou CASA!:mad:

Hopefully the Senate Enquiry's ongoing investigation into the relationship between CASA and these Arseh@les will go deep enough to uncover this piece of skullduggary as well.

[High_To_Low]

So where does this leave all the EBA guys?? Piss them off to the point they all leave and then just build a workforce on these contracts?
Does JQ think it's more financially viable to be considered a training ground for pilots to get jet time and move overseas then actually pay the EBA and retain pilots?
Where are their captains going to come from in 10-20 years time? DEC's?

[campdoag]

its out....... 14 positions for a start in july. Jetstar Group agreement. Paid an hourly rate of $101 per block hour with a min guarantee of 600 hours a year and no seniority. 4 weeks annual leave.......

A mate was offered the position this morning.............

Good luck to you all :ugh:

[PPRuNeUser0163]

Wingroot,

thanks for that! I didnt realize they had changed that recently- i see why they havent made it public anywhere or stand out though..

imagine if that was brought up in the senate inquiry- Would really make CASA look like the rogue operator they actually are and get into bed with anyone and everyone who can make them a dollar! Qantaslink still has the 100 PIC highly desirable on their applications.. I wonder if they even know about this change if it was just done recently for Jetstar:eek:

[zim2uk]

If that's the new contract how are they circumventing the award? Last I checked the minimum award for a narrow body was about 70k before allowances? Or am I missing something?

[Artificial Horizon]

They are classed as part-time would be my guess :ugh:

[Roger Greendeck]

If those figures are true then it is over 40% below what Tiger are offering for 500 hours and it is still well below if you fly to the annual limit. If it's part time they aren't going to get many days out of the pilot pool. It would be 22 hours per week for a max of 12 days a month. If they increase above that then leave days would have to increase.

[havick]

"There goes the neighbourhood"

[breakfastburrito]

If it's part time they aren't going to get many days out of the pilot pool. It would be 22 hours per week for a max of 12 days a month. If they increase above that then leave days would have to increase.
Roger, Why do "they" have to do anything? Assuming anything is dangerous.

Sound like it part-time nod nod, wink wink.

[Roger Greendeck]

Because the award is the minimum standard and it has 42 days leave. If they employ on a part time basis the component items can be reduced in a relative amount, ie if the award is for 20 days a month a part time empoyee at a 50% rate would be 10 days a month etc. An employer can't just say it is employing someone part time then program them for 20 days. If they did the employee would be entitled to the full amounts.

[Mr. Hat]

From news.com.au by Tim Vollmer


Trainee pilots in the cockpits with Jetstar's domestic flights | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/trainee-pilots-in-the-cockpits-with-jetstars-domestic-flights/story-e6frfq80-1226050210268)

JETSTAR passenger services are being flown by trainee pilots with as little as 200 hours experience, according to the pilots' association.
The cadets are employed on part-time contracts which guarantee just $57,600 a year - with no pay rise for six years - and require them to pay the airline $10,500 a year for on-the-job training costs.
If they wish to resign after less than six years with Jetstar, their contracts require they pay up to $10,000.
Trainees under the program are currently co-piloting Airbus A320s between Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane.
Most are unable to legally fly to New Zealand, where the requirement for commercial pilots is 500 hours experience.
Australian and International Pilots Association vice-president Richard Woodward accused Jetstar of trying to make young pilots "financial prisoners of the airline".

"This program is putting a person with about the same number of hours it takes to drive a car in the right hand seat of the cockpit," he said.
"Jetstar is creating a 'B scale' for pilots because they're part-time employees."
Jetstar denied the claims and said the program provided an "excellent career opportunity. In the past, becoming a pilot has been extremely expensive and has taken many years of flying in general aviation," a spokeswoman said.
"[It] makes becoming a pilot more accessible."
Jetstar said the program, launched late last year, would "deliver enhanced safety outcomes as it is based on ensuring pilot competency, with the pilots trained in Jetstar procedures ... from day one."


Read more: Trainee pilots in the cockpits with Jetstar's domestic flights | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/trainee-pilots-in-the-cockpits-with-jetstars-domestic-flights/story-e6frfq80-1226050210268#ixzz1LUI1Wu3g)

Some of the comments. I need to leave this country I'm getting embarrassed
Comments on this story
Shaz of Perth Posted at 9:11 AM May 05, 2011
And the company oath is taught on the first day..."Attention all passengers, this flight has been delayed...no wait, make that cancelled..."
Comment 1 of 30
SA Dave Posted at 9:16 AM May 05, 2011
What a joke... It might be 200 Hours but that is 200 hours of flying a Turbine engine plane.... They have been flying for year at that stage! and it is only the next step... they have already spent thousands of dollars traning to get to that level!
Comment 2 of 30
nic marandola of melbourne Posted at 9:17 AM May 05, 2011
it's time the authorities put a stop to airlines putting profit making over public safety - otherwise what is the point of having them!!
Comment 3 of 30
Mere Male of Lara Posted at 9:20 AM May 05, 2011
Better they learn to fly at Jetstar, and make their mistakes there, before getting a real job as a pilot at my carrier of choice, Qantas :-)
Comment 4 of 30
David of Adelaide Posted at 9:22 AM May 05, 2011
As a pilot, I think people have to understand just how hard it is to become a pilot, If they can pass all flight tests and exams in the time determined by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority, and pass their Jet training then they are more than capable of on the job training. Trying to find a job in Aviation is extremely hard, and every pilot I know, would do anything for a job, If they're happy to fly under those conditions that is their choice. You have to start at the bottom!
Comment 5 of 30
Jason of Perth Posted at 9:24 AM May 05, 2011
I got out of the industry myself as the pay is crap, the hours suck and there isn't really any job stability but I believe this can only be a good thing as I spent a small fortune on flying and this is nothing in comparasion for real experience early on in your career. Lets face it most pilots that end up in an airline position have 1500+ hours in small aircraft anyway, so why not start early? plenty of airlines offer this program around the world but don't actually pay you a wage so it's nothing new.
Comment 6 of 30
TS Posted at 9:37 AM May 05, 2011
And I'd bet that they are the most decent and competent employees that one could ever meet at this company.
Comment 7 of 30
The Fatman of Brisbane Posted at 9:43 AM May 05, 2011
So what. The onboard computer systems can do everything except the first part of take-off and the last 30 metres to landing. Could probably do that too but we know from the UK the driverless trains freaked people out.
Comment 8 of 30
Lexi of Brisbane Posted at 9:44 AM May 05, 2011
What exactly is the problem here? How do you get flight experience without flying? A320's practically fly themselves anyway.
Comment 9 of 30
Frequent Flier but not on Jetstar Posted at 9:48 AM May 05, 2011
Just like driving a bus, you get what you pay for, a Learner (who makes mistakes), a Provisional (who makes less mistakes) or a full and Open class driver with experience who is very unlikely to make any mistakes. It's the flying passengers who take the risk and CASA who should be accountable to regulate pilots with experience commensurate with the responsibility for the lives on board. As soon as one goes in there will be hell to pay.
Comment 10 of 30
MB Posted at 9:49 AM May 05, 2011
"This program is putting a person with about the same number of hours it takes to drive a car in the right hand seat of the cockpit," where did that come from the requriement is 50 hours and only if you do the log book method in the act. 200 hours is a lot of time and thier are always 2 pilots. after 50 hours of flying most people can achieve the private license. the other 150 hours will all be solo\ in command, and this doesnt even touch on how much book study is required. this sounds like a great way to get into commerical flying the only other organisation that pays for flying is qantas and the ADF (you owe the ADF 11-14 years if you go pilot)
Comment 11 of 30
Chris of Perth Posted at 9:52 AM May 05, 2011
Bonding of pilots is not uncommon in airlines to discourage movement to other companies after expensive training. The bonding by can be in the form of requiring a bank guarantee, one major Asian airline demanded $180,000 for a period of 5yrs after training on a different type of aircraft despite having 15,000hrs experience on heavy jets. Local trainee pilots on another Asian airline have been bonded for 13yrs, their training taking 2yrs before becoming a productive First Officer.
Comment 12 of 30
Bob of up north Posted at 9:52 AM May 05, 2011
Co pilots...so they don't land, take off or have control in an emergency.
Comment 13 of 30
Mike Hunty of QLD Posted at 9:55 AM May 05, 2011
I've logged 160 hours in single engine Piper Cherokees..I'll give these fancy Airbus things a try, where do i send my resume?
Comment 14 of 30
Jetstar of Melbourne Posted at 9:58 AM May 05, 2011
shaz - we all are comediams - some just not as funny as others.....Good to see Mr Woodward back in news trying to stir the pot again. Obviously a slow week for him. I'm sure he realises that Cadets have been in the industry since the 60s - and in fact they came straight out of training into Qantas with little more hours than what this article is stating. Furthermore, if the saftey of these pilots is an issue, why doesn't CASA or our fantasic government department of transport ban them now ! No evidence to suggest that they are of concern me thinks.
Comment 15 of 30
David of Brisbane Posted at 10:00 AM May 05, 2011
That explains the burnout on the runway and the magnetic P Plate on the back
Comment 16 of 30
Storman of Perth Posted at 10:03 AM May 05, 2011
Right...so if they are never co-pilots how are they supposed to get experiences in airbuses etc...theats like saying a draft pick can only practice in a simulated environment, but then have to make their debut in a premiership team with real life experience....so what!!
Comment 17 of 30
Ozshanel of Sydney Posted at 10:06 AM May 05, 2011
Good on Jetstar for taking on new recruits and training them as commercial pilots from scratch. I would be much more comfortable with a young and alert Jetstar pilot at the controls than someone in their 70s flying an Air NZ aircraft.
Comment 18 of 30
sean of brisbane Posted at 10:08 AM May 05, 2011
What better place to get real time experience with emergencies than a subsidiary airline belonging to Qantas ? They are in the news for some near miss maintenance issue weekly. Little wonder virgin has done so well here.
Comment 19 of 30
Safety before Profit Posted at 10:08 AM May 05, 2011
With 200 hours of flight training the cadets will be struggling to keep up with the normal operation of the aircraft. They will then NOT be in a position to help in an emergency or when the workload increases for any reason. It costs a lot less to go through working in General Aviation before entering an airline, this is simple maths with little research. Jetstar are making money out of these people for a job. It may not be so apparent to the public but Jetstar and the Qantas Group are pushing and pushing the Fair Work Australia (FWA) Rules to see what they can get away with. We as the public need to stop this, it will affest all workplaces in the future if they get away with it.
Comment 20 of 30
justme Posted at 10:16 AM May 05, 2011
@Shaz Thats more like Tiger.....
Comment 21 of 30
Matt of sydney Posted at 10:16 AM May 05, 2011
So what - its legal under Australian law. The pilots have been well trained. There is an experienced pilot in the left seat. A modern jet is no doubt much easier to fly than a 20-yr old ten seat prop jet being flown into a country aiport with a dirt strip
Comment 22 of 30
Safety Safety Safety Posted at 10:18 AM May 05, 2011
There is currently a Senate inquiry into Aircrew training and standards. Some of it is interesting listen, with CEO's etc trying to make a rose from a thorny weed. The public should be made aware of these slipping standards. It seems to just be moeny, money, money or bonus, bonus, bonus.... Hopefully the inquiry or CASA actually do something and stand up for the safety of all Australians that use air travel. The USA have just increased the minimum hours to 1500 for the same operations, this was due to aircraft crash investigations etc.
Comment 23 of 30
moo73 Posted at 10:21 AM May 05, 2011
It seems to me that this generation need to learn that you start at the bottom and learn your way to the top, not start at the top.
Comment 24 of 30
Experienced pilot of East side Posted at 10:33 AM May 05, 2011
So travelling public, how do you feel about being flown around with one experienced pilot and one straight out of flight school???
Comment 25 of 30
Martin of York Posted at 10:36 AM May 05, 2011
Which claims Jetstar denies? The claim about pilots have to pay Jetstar $10,500 , the claim that pilots have to pay Jetstar $10,000 if they want to leave before the six years is up(this must be illegal especially if the pilot has to pay the 10,500 a year dollars) or both?
Comment 26 of 30
DeanR Posted at 10:36 AM May 05, 2011
And? How do they expect new pilots to be trained? Perhaps you forget that they will have a highly trained pilot giving them instructions through the entire flight. To be honest, getting paid for flying lessons is fantastic. My brother PAID $50000+ for his.
Comment 27 of 30
Louise of Melbourne Posted at 10:45 AM May 05, 2011
just another reason not to fly Jetstar really...
Comment 28 of 30
Naden of Perth Posted at 10:46 AM May 05, 2011
It's the cheapskates whi fly this garbage that are responsible for this.
Comment 29 of 30
Louise Posted at 10:47 AM May 05, 2011
Just another reason not to fly Jetstar..
Comment 30 of 30


Few cadet or Jetstar staff members in amongst the comments. They've probably employed a team of children from manilla to write positive things and attempt to influence public opinion.

Where are those guys that got Osama.. I wonder if they're busy..:E

[TSRABECOMING]

Are there any RH seat jobs available with better contract?

[PPRuNeUser0161]

I was only thinking this morning that if I were J* management and I wanted to find out just how bad the guys and gals out of school want to sit in a nice smick cockpit then I would start a recruiting drive at the award rate. You can always increase the offer if there are no punters! But I bet there will be plenty and in five years time when life becomes more about living and getting ahead the sparks will fly. There will be no alternative but to go O/S at that point to find better coin but by then the LLC T/C's will have infected the world. The party is well and truly over boys

For me, I'll take a DEC otherwise its a no go. So I guess its a no go.

[Mr. Hat]

The future is slave cadet FO's that keep trying to impress the opposite sex by looking for airplanes to point to when out in beer gardens on Friday nights. It'll be king of like those companies where you ring up the night before to see if you have work for the next day (GA with Jets) .

There will be a constant turn over in FO's generating a pretty penny in training costs and little resistance or nouse on any industrial matters.

Captains will of the DE variety. Usually people that have been overseas and looking to come back before retirement OR people that are tired of living in India and getting too much real life simulator practice.

J* will be the place people go to gain the experience required to go elsewhere.

[eocvictim]

Jetstar has turned jets into GA without a doubt, ask anyone you know who's an FO there now; "Why are you doing it?" "Just getting the jet hours to go elsewhere."

I've heard that from too many DE Fo's, imagine where the cadets will sit on this.

[hongkongfooey]

There are some real funny cooments in that stuff Mr. Hat posted, also a lot of :mad:heads, the sort of people that fly with airlines like Garuda to save $50 or have a friend who is a private pilot and suddenly they are experts.

The point that seems to be constantly missed is that elsewhere in the world, the cadetship thing is done out of necessity, and quite often ie CX and QF, the cadet doesnt get to T/O or land for 3-4 years. Jetstar are doing this to save money, plain and simple, they really have become a cheap and nasty bunch of plicks.

[porch monkey]

Despite all, still they will come. They know not what they do.......:sad:

[schlong hauler]

CASA will be hoping that no Captain becomes incapacitated in flight. Just imagine the sh*t hitting the fan on the flight deck. 200 hours means nothing. What an absolute disgrace. Loathsome contemptable stupidity.

[Mr. Hat]

The key in my opinion is this:

What is the point of having a body called Fair Work Australia and a document called an EBA if every time a company needs a few extra dollars a B scale is introduced.

I question the legality of one employee being employed under lessor conditions than the another - how does that meet the "no disadvantage" test? We talk about un-Australian but I actually reckon its very Australian at this rate!

I say wind FWA up altogether. Its a waste of time and tax payer money. Pack up DOTARS while we're at it, oh and centrelink..

c173 the problem is this: Our unions take softly soft cock approaches to everything. I'm told the engineers do a better job. Straight for the jugular nice and aggressive. Clearly the suit and tie professional approach hasn't worked for the last 20 years. Maybe time to seek some input from other industries unions and kick out anyone that opposes.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Chaps
The problem is a document called the Award. Why is it so little? Who let this happen? I have no idea myself but there are a thousand trades and job titles out there that require far less training and ongoing accountability and they pay a lot more than this utter rubbish. In my opinion the current state of play is nothing other than supply Vs demand. There are plenty of punters and the pay on offer is legal. So its a done deal!

Whatever the fix is it will be long term and certainly won't help me any. You still have to eat so I guess this is the time to say it;

NO MORE SOUP FOR YOU!

SN

[The Kelpie]

Soup Nazi

Qantas were involved with it somewhere but generally based on the General Aviation Pilots Award prior to the Modern Awards being introduced.

It was only when the Award was 'modernised' that Airline type aircraft were included

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[HF3000]

Was anyone consulted about the Modern Pilots Award?

[newsensation]

you have to be the elite to get a spot, so its quite likely cadets would make some pretty damn good pilots.
hahahahahahahahahhhahhhhaaaahhhhh:ok:

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Blue-foot
Yep it does sound like GA. But a lot of young budding wanabees don't want to do GA. Lets face it if you could bypass the first 3-5 years and still make more money you probably would. Plus you get to tell your mates you've made it already!

All I know is real wages for airline pilots are going down in a big way. On the other hand at the top end of GA they are most definately going up. Nobody wants to do single pilots ops. I get 110K to fly a King Air 350 hours a year. Sure I'm not in on the coast but I'm not in Charlieville either and there are plenty that are on the coast getting the same. My pay has more than doubled in the last 10 years. These new recruits don't want my job, in fact, not many do and thats why the pay is going up. It will be interesting to see what they will be on when/if they get command. Perhaps 110K??? All the while the award for my job is about 55K. Again the award, why does it not reflect industry practice?

The reality is jetstar are using their name and capacity to employ newbees to drive wages down and in doing so will teach VB and Tiger a new meaning to the term LCC. They must follow or be done for. The days of a command on 200K plus are not awaiting these new recruits. They will do it tough for their entire career unless they go OS provided the new conditions have not beaten them to it.
SN

[SkyFlyHigh]

All of us that got ourselves a CPL knew what we were getting into. There was never any guarantee of getting into a well paid job in a good location, even in the long term.

Even without the cadetships the airlines are looking for people who are well rounded, intelligent and professional. They always have tried to take the best of the crowd and so many of us were never destined to get there.

GA provides us with great skills, but it also taints us in many ways - e.g. forcing us to accept and become comfortable taking risks that are completely unaccceptable in the airline industry.

Experience is overrated in this country. I know student pilots with tailwheel and aerobatic experience and with 100hrs total time that can run circles around most 2000 hr instructors regarding aircraft handling, crosswind landings and flight/energy management. Training is a far bigger factor than experience. And we all know pilots with thousand of hours that we don't feel safe flying next to.

Whilst it is really frustrating that these junior pilots can jump the queue. The truth is that the queue is only a figment of our imaginations. I reckon that most cadets will make very proficient first officers - just as good as most from GA. My biggest concern would be their personal maturity levels - especially being so young and not having any life experience.

I also don't think the 'captain incapacitated = plane will crash' or 'emergency situation = plane will crash' arguments hold up. Lets not forget that these pilots will have a CPL, ATPL theory, MECIR and hold a command endorsement in the A320 having to demonstrate proficiency in normal and emergency procedures. Yet after all this you think they can't safely land the plane without the captain? or can't assist by following SOPS in an emergency? Rubbish. They just have to choose the right individuals.

[Keg]

you have to be the elite to get a spot, so its quite likely cadets would make some pretty damn good pilots.


Not as elite as you used to have to be. I know personally a lot of very capable and smart young kids who were looking at potential flying careers but have decided to do something different. Their reasoning is that effort/ cost to potential ratio just isn't cutting it any more. They can get a better return on their time/ effort than what aviation can provide. This means that the aviation is no longer attracting the best and brightest to the same extent that it used to. So whilst the cadetships may take the best of the applicants, the reality is the talent pool available is being significantly reduced.

That's not to say that those selected don't meet minimum standards- I'm sure they do. Just that they may not exceed the minimum standard in the way in which others in the past probably did. There will come a day when the 'minimum standard' simply isn't good enough for the situation- I wonder if the AF447 prang was an example of this but that's for another thread. I'm not sure the airline managements who endorse and encourage the types of cadetships currently on offer quite understand this concept.

I know student pilots with tailwheel and aerobatic experience and with 100hrs total time that can run circles around most 2000 hr instructors regarding aircraft handling, crosswind landings and flight/energy management.

The aim of experience is to avoid situations where you have to display superior efforts of stick and rudder skills in order to get the job done. There are certainly F/Os that can fly rings around me in terms of aircraft handling. I've also seen them occasionally come unstuck simply due to lack of experience in certain situations. Invariably it's because I've seen those situations before and could see the situation developing and they haven't. You under value 'experience' at your own peril. Ironically, the QF group management are doing just that. Their desire to make redundant experienced Captains and F/Os (if they got their way in the next EBA) is a great example of that.

[27/09]

SkyFlyHigh

A very plausible first post, and I agree somewhat that cadets will make good pilots however......

I have heard anecdotal evidence which tends to disprove your comment;

Lets not forget that these pilots will have a CPL, ATPL theory, MECIR and hold a command endorsement in the A320 having to demonstrate proficiency in normal and emergency procedures. Yet after all this you think they can't safely land the plane without the captain? or can't assist by following SOPS in an emergency? Rubbish.

I have heard that there are times when cadets do not cope well and the Captain has their work cut out even to the point of the cadet being more frightened by the conditions than the PAX, so frightened that the Captain is really flying single pilot at a time when they could do with the help from 0F.

The Colgan crash in the US brought about a 1500 hour flight time minimum for pilots carrying out ATO's, I'm not sure that this was the right answer to the problem however the authorities came to the conclusion that more hours was a good thing. Why are Jetstar hell bent on reducing experience in the cockpit?

However this isn't really the problem here, the problem is what the cadets are being paid, which is much less than other FO's on the same type, plus they have to pay back a significant sum of their salary to Jetstar for the first 6 years. The appalling conditions is going to lead to the issues that were highlighted by the Colgan crash. i.e pilots not being able to afford to live at their appointed base and having the live else where and deadhead to work and or live in very substandard accomodation giving rise to fatigue issues.

There is also the potential distress and worry caused by the financial pressure these cadets will be under which is not a good mix when flying an aircraft.

Why is there a need for Jetstar cadets to start with, there are plenty of suitable applicants to choose from otherwise?

I strongly disagree with the last part of this statement

GA provides us with great skills, but it also taints us in many ways - e.g. forcing us to accept and become comfortable taking risks that are completely unaccceptable in the airline industry.



If you really believe this then perhaps you need to take a look at your own standards.

[xjt]

after all dirt that keeps surfacing with this mob...i cannot believe there are people of this forum that keep justifying and defending these bastards.....WTF are you people drinking!!!..is the water in the crew room spiked ? puts a new spin on the old saying..."drinking the cool aid" We have become an international embarrassment....I cannot even at times look other crew in the eye...(especially QF guys)......for those who believe the company is in it for them.....take this one to bed tonight......
"Company Analysis team.....- i.e- Boston consulting " - 1 hull loss every 5 years acceptable with little or no brand name damage......

Disgraceful

[Flt.Lt Zed]

Aptitude testing is not the be-all end-all. Cadets who may shine in the aptitude testing will learn quickly, but when the job becomes more routine they tend to get bored and make basic errors.

[Ted Nugent]

Lets just remember this argument is not about cadets, Its about these scum bag management types introducing a new B scale contract for all new direct entry FO positions, positions that will be filled with experienced GA type, not 200 hr cadets.

God help us all when this current EBA expires.

Jetstar management, you are a :mad: embarrassment!

The pilot group, AIPA and AFAP need to grow some balls and take these :mad: :mad: down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Kelpie]

When are the elections for AFAP/AIPA officials?

Time for some new blood I think that is a little less passive!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Mstr Caution]

I don't work for J*, however:
If I was in the left seat & didn't have complete confidence in the low hour pilot flying the sector. Due to crosswind, weather, wet or narrow runway, reverser inop. I'd fly the sector.
It's all about safety!!
Unfortunately the individuals would only get to log co-pilot time for that sector.
If there was a extended period of poor weather or challenging conditions, landing recency may become an issue. But that's why the company has simulators at their disposal.
MC

[hongkongfooey]

I'd be curious to hear from all the " A cadet with the right training blah blah blah " mob, how much flying they have done with low hour pilots as PIC on a jet ?
Whats that I hear ? crickets ?
Stop quoting the BS from the flying schools that clearly have a lot to gain from this. ( and I would hazard a guess none of the flying school CFIs or owners have any experience in jets, let alone flying with cadets )

Can anybody name a profession where in less than 2 years you are let loose in a position that used to take 5-7 years to accomplish ? Even basic trades take double that time to complete.

Of course all this is fuelled by " Gen Y can't I have it all immediately ", bypass the bush flying, basings in places nobody ever heard of and for what appears to be a great income til your mates graduate after 4 or 5 years and are instantly on double the pay you are.

[CaptCloudbuster]

XJT, Do you have a link to verify your quote from Boston Consulting re Hull Loss'?

[Luke SkyToddler]

Two separate issues here ... the pay / industrial relations one and the safety one ...

Why don't you hard core bush pilots go and get on the phone to all those really disreputable and dodgey outfits like BA, Cathay, Lufthansa and grant them the insight of your superior wisdom to explain to them why the cadet schemes they've been running for the last several decades are actually completely unsafe and a total scandal.

I should know, as a captain I became incapacitated a few years ago (massive sudden-onset food poisoning) in a crappy old turboprop freighter in the Shetland Islands, with a 200 hour whippersnapper cadet in the RHS ... and the lad did a bloody great job of hand flying a non precision approach to minimums, in a sh!tty rainy day with a 25 kt gusty crosswind. He was only a few weeks out of his IR issue and been checked to line for about a month.

I do not have a safety issue with properly checked and trained cadets at all, and neither do any of the training captains at most of the big European and Asian airlines where they've been around for decades.

HOwever, the old-school way of doing things was that the cadets actually got their training paid for or subsidized and they were not on separate pay scales once they were checked to line, they certainly didn't represent a threat to T&C's of existing pilots. What's going on now with these big flying schools getting into bed with the lo-cos and using the guy in the RHS as a profit centre, is an absolute :mad: ing disgrace and needs to be dealt with asap.

However imho it's got to be the existing unions that grow some cojones and deal with it, because the kids ain't gonna stop queueing up to throw themselves at these schemes because of what they read on pprune

[Sand dune Sam]

Jetstars problems are allot deeper than the cadet issue...lets not forget the fact that this airline was set up to draw a line in the sand to thwart an aggressive VB.....the fact that the pilots at the time sold themselves out and agreed to do the flying cheaper than QF pilots..once in 2003, and again in 2005 by taking the A330 flying for 40% less speaks volumes as far as I'm concerned..

There will NEVER be unity between QF and JQ guys..NEVER..as much as AIPA and the feds want to crap on about it, it will never happen..you have two opposing forces at work..

And as far as the Jetstar/QF guys and gals go...no point bitching and whining about your crap work conditions or in QF's case, reduction in flying, you and AIPA should of sorted that **** out in 2003 when you had the chance...instead AIPA screwed it for themselves and the Impulse guys shouldnt have been so trigger happy to steal the flying.....simple as that..

Now what we all have to do is try and rebuild and regroup and try and get some dignity and worth back into the profession...:ugh:

[A37575]

Yet after all this you think they can't safely land the plane without the captain? or can't assist by following SOPS in an emergency? Rubbish. They just have to choose the right individuals.


Bless you my son. Verily I say unto you that you have the faith. Misplaced faith, maybe - but still have the courage of your convictions:eek:

[Xcel]

You don't see solicitors jump straight from a 2 year fast track course to be the attorney general or a judge or a solicitor - what's that oh yeah they make coffee. And that's about as useful as these cadets are!!

You won't see ANY profession the world over do this except aviation. It's just ridiculous... TheSe so called "gods gift pilots" most definately can't be that bright and the "cream of the crop" as anyone with half a brain would see what they ategetting into and go join a "real" profession, aviation isn't one of them just ask management...

If you don't need experience to fly and manage an aircraft I dare say you won't need any to run and manage a group of aircraft. Let one of these cadets take Joyce's seat I'm sure that might actually make an improvement.

As for aptitude testing, I think you'll find there is only one question - how big a pineapple can we fit? Don't worry with a little practice I'm sure you could fit the whole farm at this rate...

Don't get me wrong a balanced intake of properly trained and integrated cadets in a second officer or cruise fo position may be benificial but when the **** hits the fan 200hrs is just scary... Mark my words it will be a coronial enquiry and not a senate enquiry if something isn't done to stop this cancerous management scam!!

[Sunfish]

My my. I only have a PPL and I still learn something new on every flight.

I should have paid a little more and obtained a commercial licence, then I would know everything necessary to fly a heavy jet once I had flown 200 hours.

200 hour cadets need one of these in the front window:


http://www.succinctideas.com.au/images/p_plate.jpg

[hongkongfooey]

LST, I don't know about BA and Lufthansa, but I'll say it again, CX cadets don't get to the RHS for 3-5 years, KA cadets do and it's bluddy hard work for the Captains, the most heard phrase on a KA flight deck with a cadet in the RHS is " priority left " Fact.
Sorry to burst your bubble and your great " there we were......" story, I am talking about daily events not a once in a career event with an very capable low hour pilot.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Dont worry about bursting my bubble hongkongfooey, it wasn't really meant as a big story for telling round the bar and I'm sorry if it came across that way. Maybe the KA cadets are hard work for the trainers and maybe they aren't, I could care less. Maybe there's something else wrong in the KA selection and training process.

It doesn't change the undeniable fact that there are dozens and dozens of airlines around the world, legacy and low cost and everything in between, who have safely and successfully been putting 200 hour guys into the RHS of jets for many many years now. Just because it flies in the face of what's traditionally been accepted in Australia / NZ, doesn't make it less of a fact.

I guess the most relevant model for Jetstar would be Ryanair and/or Easyjet, both of which are massively huge low cost airlines and both of which have been flying self funded cadets pretty much since they started in the '80s. Those airlines must have done millions of sectors between them over the last couple of decades since the low cost boom took off in Europe ... and if you can be bothered to read back through the pages of PPRUNE from the '80s and '90s you'll see people crying about how all these cadets are ticking time bombs and it will all end in tears and disaster.

Well all I'm saying is, it still hasn't happened. I am no fan of those company's business practices either, especially Ryanair has some sharp practices of financially raping their crews that most other bean counter airlines can only dream of. But sooner or later you have to admit that the detractors were wrong, from a pure safety point of view, after a few million sectors and years and years and years of high-volume safe operations, they're still doing it successfully.

Of course not all 200 hour pilots are ready for jets, and yes of course it requires a good selection and training process, an effective regulatory oversight and a team of bloody good training and management captains in the airline concerned, in order to make it work. In the absence of those factors then yes, risk levels shoot through the roof. However if it's done right then it really isn't an issue.

Please note that all my arguments above, is purely related to SAFETY issues surrounding flying with low time cadets, and has nothing whatsoever to do with defending the morality of what's going on here in terms of the industrial relations aspect and the financial shafting these kids are receiving - which makes me as sick as the next man.

[Ted Nugent]

200 hour cadets need one of these in the front window:

How about a pair of dull grey epaulettes with 2 bars for the first 12 months. ;)

[MASTEMA]

The trouble with 200hr cadets or any pilot with low experience sitting in the right seat of a big jet is that the ennui sets in rather quickly.

Nothing beats flogging around in a KingAir, PC9, or a Dash, etc and building up some 'war stories' to relate between lunch, the newspaper, the descent brief and the landing. :)

Being an airline pilot use to be the graduation, not the apprenticeship.

[Mud Skipper]

Simple short term answer is to never give them a sector. Nothing requires them to be given half the flying so don't. Is this playing the man not the ball, yes, too bad. These kids are helping to destroy the industry and should be taught it's not on. Every 35 days they can go into the Sim and get current again, who pays for that's? Hopefully their company but again, who cares. Would this be discriminatory, perhaps, let's have the discussion in open court, AIPA will help represent the Captain no doubt.

[magicbox]

Once again...........off the topic we go............cadets/aptitude testing.....etc:hmm:

Cadets......better or not........reality is JQ have them and there are enough in the wind to keep the system going (in short term at least).

Back to the topic.

Are JQ recruiting.

Yes it would seem, and so under a new "modern" group award contract.

Part time position guaranteed 600hrs per calendar year minimum at $101 per hour.

All the b*tching and moaning in the world isn't going to stop the cadets, lets face it, whilst there is an avenue to "jump the queue" or get ahead people will do it whether its aviation or any other industry.

Maybe the unions will help put an end to it/maybe they can't/won't.

However, supply & demand will in both instances (cadets/DE).

How many are going to jump at the NEW "group" contract?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Everyone here can argue till blue in the face about QF/JQ/Impulse/AIPA/AFAP etc etc etc and how it might have altered the current state but once again back at reality, this is what has been thrown out to the wolves.

Let's see who takes it................:ugh:

[Swimbetweentheflags]

The way I see it is............
If these cadets were so great and we should all be in awe of how smart they are then why the heck arent they getting the same rates and EBA as a normal FO.
Simple, Jetstar see them as cheap labour and as such will pay them accordingly to what they think of their skills and experience. :=
Pay peanuts expect monkeys :ugh:

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Swim
Oh they are smart. So smart they can't see the cash (because there is none) for the nice brightly lit cockpit! Uninformed with no industry experience more like. But really we arn't talking about cadets here though. The latest drive for pilots by Jetstar will test the water and see if they can get experienced pilots for the price of a cadet.

Anyone who suggests that experience counts for nothing and you can train someone to the same standard should pull their head in. There is a big difference between sitting in the right seat with an experienced Captain watching over you and actually taking full responsibility on your own. (please don't suggest you can teach this in a sim) You would only make such a comment if you had little experience and had never been really tested out on a consistant basis.
SN

[Compylot]

The only thing that would help stop the current slide in pay and conditions is if the present pilot group stood together and refused to let it happen. ie at its most extreme Protected Industrial Action, or by opening discussions with management to try and push the case for better conditions.

Now that will never happen. You would have 20% maybe 30% at best of the vocal minority such as those who post here time and time again who would stand up and make a stand and take action if necessary.

A larger proportion perhaps 50% of the pilot group, even though silently are not happy with the way things are heading, would stay silent and think well I don't want to rock the boat I'm on a better wicket than what the new guys are on, I should get a command in the next few years etc

The rest would be management/company (check/training) people who side with the company and don't care about what is happening as they are where they want and make good coin considering.

If a survey was held tomorrow to try and gain information on the concerns of the current pilots regarding these new pay and conditions I would guess not even half would even bother replying!

So what will be the end result?

-A lot of CAPITAL, bold and italic text, a few:mad: and :yuk: and :ugh: and :{ by a very small vocal minority of people who post on these forums,

-an absolute ignorance and zero care factor by the general public

-and lots of :):):):) from management.

So in the end....nothing

[Ted Nugent]

Compylot, Your three following quotes unfortunately sum up the current culture perfectly!

Now that will never happen. You would have 20% maybe 30% at best of the vocal minority such as those who post here time and time again who would stand up and make a stand and take action if necessary.

A larger proportion perhaps 50% of the pilot group, even though silently are not happy with the way things are heading, would stay silent and think well I don't want to rock the boat I'm on a better wicket than what the new guys are on, I should get a command in the next few years etc

The rest would be management/company (check/training) people who side with the company and don't care about what is happening as they are where they want and make good coin considering.

[Popgun]

So what will be the end result?

-A lot of CAPITAL, bold and italic text, a few and and and by a very small vocal minority of people who post on these forums,

-an absolute ignorance and zero care factor by the general public

-and lots of from management.

So in the end....nothing

I fear you may be right Compylot, but maybe...just maybe, this time there will be a shocking realisation amongst the Jetstar pilot group that unless this latest management move is curtailed it will only be a matter of time before all future commands and promotions are given to non-EBA employees willing to do the same job for far less pay and shoddier conditions.

Will a line in the sand be drawn (finally) by the Jetstar pilot group?

Jetstar captains, trainers and checkers will need to have the gumption to demonstrate leadership in this area if there is to be any hope of stopping the march of a B scale.

PG

[MASTEMA]

...where are we headed?

[Keg]

The only thing that would help stop the current slide in pay and conditions is if the present pilot group stood together and refused to let it happen. ie at its most extreme Protected Industrial Action, or by opening discussions with management to try and push the case for better conditions.

The only problem is that PIA is only possible during an EA negotiation- and I don't think J*'s is due anytime soon. Even then, I'm not sure if PIA over other employees being offered a different contract is one of the permissible items with FWA.

We are at a significant cross roads. PIA is just one of a multitude of strategies that can be considered as part of the wider campaign. In the mean time, explain the issues with those you know and love. Encourage them to share the issues with their circle of people. Share Ben Sandilands articles on social media outlets and spread the word about what the ultimate 'cost' of J*'s plans may be.

[27/09]

The only thing that would help stop the current slide in pay and conditions is if the present pilot group stood together and refused to let it happen.

This could be achieved quite easily IF and it's a BIG IF the Training Captains were to advise the company that they were no longer interested in doing any more training. So far as I know these guys do it by choice, yes, they are paid extra for it, but nothing says they have to do it it they don't want to do it any more.

Yep a big sacrifice possibly for these guys but a way to stop the rot.

The other way of making a point as someone suggested somewhere is for the Captains not not give any sectors to the cadets by deeming condtions unsuitable for the cadet to be PF, thus requiring regular sim trips for the cadets to remain current.

[tryhard1]

Contract for new hires has their endorsement cost at up to $40k Based on Jetstar's history, this is how much it will cost, and repaid over max of three years.

Some basic maths here (I hope) Facilitation fee of $4000 (they say 10% so I have rounded up), leaves $36,000.

Alteon charge $28,000 including GST (which is a charge to any one off the street, so I would assume Jetstar's procurement department would have negotiated a better rate than this!)

Jetstar claim back the GST so the actual cost to Jetstar is $25,455

Difference is $36,000 less $25,455 which is $10,545

Based on crude calculations, Jetstar are making interest of 14% p.a. (more if you can do proper calcuations) as well as $4000 for placing people to be trained in an organisation already contracted to provide the service.

So this is another income stream for Jetstar.... Onya :=

[PPRuNeUser0161]

27/09
They won't do it because they know there would be umpteen others that would take their slots and if they didn't J* is perfectly within its rights to recruit from OS to fill thes positions. Remember 89?????? (lets not go there though)

In my opinion this is irriversable. It all started way back when airline pilots cast GA addrift and decided they were worth so much more. Now everyone wants to be an airline pilot because the position has traditionally held significant social status. The companies have been working for 22 years to bring them down and they have succeeded.

The question is how long will there be a good supply of suitable applicants for these low paying jobs? My guess it is infinate. They will just take the best of those who apply. They have nothing to lose, they pay for there training and if they fail they're booted out! The applicants will think they are the best of the best but really they are just the best of those who are desperate to fly a jet at any cost.

To all those parents out there who have sons and daughters looking at applying for this type of job, for their sake keep the cheque book closed and, talk some sense into them! Thats the only thing that will change it.
SN

[daveyjones744]

Jetstar Pilot

= Taxi driver

[stan dupp]

Sorry, but I disagree with the idea that the current pilot group in J* are the only ones who can put a stop to this...

While we can continue with the go slow tactics, organize sick days, PIA etc - and I'm all the more keen to partake, we need the pilot group outside to be telling managment to go and screw themselves with that contract!

We did it when V Aus sent out the first contracts - and they had to come back with better offers, J* NZ bases have found the same the problem, hence the need to bring in cadets (because the cadets let them get away with it!!!) It happened wih the SIN base contracts, so J* had to put out a better offer!

Take a look at the trend and decide for yourselves - you won't lose the oportunity - I didn't, and the same can be said for everyone else that told them to stick it where the sun doesn't shine!! This is how J* opperate people, they start low and work their way up til they find people start accepting the T&C's - much like you buying/selling a house...

If you let them pay you peanuts - then YOU'RE the monkey

Stan

[27/09]

SN
Someone needs to take a stand, from what you say no one will, so I guess you're correct, pilot's will all be "rooned".

DJ744
From what I read here taxi drivers get more respect from their employers.

[Mstr Caution]

It shouldn't be left to individual Captains to manage this race to absolute minimum standards to fly a jet aircraft.

If a senate inquiry or a companies own recruitment standards fail to deliver this, perhaps a directive from the pilots own federation or association will suffice.

A directive to the effect, that due to the risks associated with low hour pilots operating high performance aircraft with other than training Captains. Such pilots shall only operate as PNF until such time as the individuals accrue 500hrs PIC.

That will take some incentive away from a cadet position where you can't build any ICUS time & still have to get the 500 hours PIC the traditional way.

On a positive side, it'll be the highest paid flight radio telephone operator position worldwide & as a bonus they'll even get to operate the gear & flap lever!

MC

[stillalbatross]

LST, I don't know about BA and Lufthansa, but I'll say it again, CX cadets don't get to the RHS for 3-5 years, KA cadets do and it's bluddy hard work for the Captains, the most heard phrase on a KA flight deck with a cadet in the RHS is " priority left " Fact.
Sorry to burst your bubble and your great " there we were......" story, I am talking about daily events not a once in a career event with an very capable low hour pilot

Hongkongfoey, maybe like many other changes in CX/KA the days of a skipper having some 5000 hr new joiner in the other seat are a thing of the past. So as a skipper you have to work a little bit harder for your money. The rest of the world has been dealing with lack of experience in the right hand seat for years, cadets are a financial nobrainer especially as statistically it's no less safer.

[breakfastburrito]

“We anticipate up to 20,000 applications for this attractive new program which seeks to remove some of the traditional barriers to becoming an airline pilot, demonstrating the high demand to enter this highly skilled and sought-after profession,” Mr Buchanan said.
Jetstar Press Release, 2 June 2010 Source: jetstar (http://www.jetstar.com/~/_media/B727C942EBF84A5CA1FAA56435E8BE49.pdf) (copy HERE (http://www.mediafire.com/file/h34e9dl6cx07j91/Jetstar_cadet_launch_press-release-02_june_2010.pdf))

The conditions are fairly good. That is why, when we advertised for 80 cadet positions, we had 4,800 applications.
Bruce Buchanan, evidence at the Inquiry into Pilot training and airline safety, Source: Hansard Transcript 25/2/2011, page 28 (http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/senate/commttee/S13559.pdf)


Less than one quarter of the anticipated applications. Perhaps perspective cadets are reading PPRuNe & thinking for themselves. Now the reality has been documented with the first gratuates having a contract offered, I wonder how the next round will go, especially for the full CPL+Advanced program, and the $200,000 debt attached? Keep chipping away, people, they can't hide the truth in the internet era.

[eocvictim]

BB Thank's to some pretty poor marketing and knowledge of internet skills on J*s part, PPruNe is at the top of the list when you google "Jetstar Cadetship" :ok:

[breakfastburrito]

ecovictim, the more a key word or phrase use or a page linked to, the higher it moves up the search google search ranking. Google, therefore accurately reflects the volume of "chatter" and concern about the jetstar cadet issue.

The problem for jetstar, is that it will be very hard to suppress the pprune discussion, and thus push it down the ranking. The more it is discussed, and linked to, the higher the it will rise on google. Hopefully I will be able to post some more info about this in the near future.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

The public perception is that a pilot's job is an under worked, overpaid and exciting position to hold. ie attractive. So don't expect any support there.

What the airlines are aiming for is a pilot glut so they can keep T & C's low. They'll recruit and train as many as they can in the knowledge that those who fail or don't like the conditions will probably go to GA and get some experience. They can always get them back later by increasing the T & C's if they need to. It's that easy. At least we know the award is the bottom line for those recruited from GA anyway. It will probably solve some of GA's pilot problems at the same time hey! So from J*'s perspective "all is well".

SN

[Keg]

Interesting Brekkyburritto. I just tried some auto suggest terms and PPRUNE didn't come up. Jetstar cadet pilot program was one of them.

So perhaps we need to be using that term a few times on these threads so that the PPRUNE threads head up the list.

The jetstar cadet pilot program is a con and not worth the money. Just say 'no'. :ok:

[Capt Kremin]

Hey B-Burrito, are you keeping a file on some of these management quotes? If so, I'd love to find Joyces beauty back in the early days of Jetstar when he opined something along the lines of Jstar pilots would be burnt out after 5 years or so. Any idea where to find that?

[breakfastburrito]

Capt K, IIRC, that was reported as being at a DAME conference a while back, my understanding is that quote was never actually published, rather it was attributed to him by someone at the conference. And yes, I do have a Bruce Buchanan file, he has left a fairly hefty internet footprint. Plenty of material & interviews!

Keg, re the google search. If, hypothetically everyone clicked on the following link:
google search for jetstar cadet pprune (http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&xhr=t&q=jetstar+cadet+pprune&cp=14&pq=jetstar%20cadet%20%20pprune&pf=p&sclient=psy&source=hp&aq=0&aqi=&aql=&oq=jetstar+cadet+pprune&pbx=1&fp=8bca8b81094b928f&bs=1&biw=1333&bih=897), it will raise its profile in the rankings.

I will craft a few more and post them in a separate thread soon. All you need to do is set one of them as your homepage, or click through each link daily, and it lifts the ranking. Even better, email a list of links to friends. Remember, the more you search on a term, the higher its rankings become.

This post highlights some of these techniques:How to Google Bomb – Mastering Internet Marketing Strategies (http://hansschoff.com/mlm/google-bomb-mastering-internet-marketing-strategies). They have had excellent results to move issues up.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Tiger looks alright now hey!
SN

[aviationboy]

applied for this J* "group"... not entirely in a serious manner anyway. I will be interested to see if I get a phone call, and if so what the deal is.

55k part time singa based??? LOL don't think so! Well... maybe for an a330 endo then off to the sand with shiny type rating?? Well maybe not, but if I didn't I bet a thousand behind me would!! :ugh:

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Avboy
If you'd work for 55K and an A330 endo, good luck to you! I certainly could not make that work. You have got to be kidding!!!!!!!
SN

[aviationboy]

yes indeed I am kidding soup nazi, i did say that I wouldn't do it (maybe not clear enough though!!!!) :}

plenty who would though.....

[Popgun]

Word on the street is that both AIPA and AFAP are formulating a legal challenge to this non-EBA contract of employment.

Anyone have any idea of how quickly a legal response could be expected to be ruled on?

PG

[The Green Goblin]

I believe a Pilot hiring ban needs to be imposed on the company until this mess is sorted out.

It's akin to trying to plug leaks in a dam wall with your fingers. You plug one, and another develops. It does not take long to run out of fingers.

It's also apparent corporate Australia has declared war on Australians.

I think it's time Australians declared war on the corporate managers. Without us (the mere minions) there would be no consumers and no workers.

While workers can be outsourced, if local consumers are not buying these products, there is no corporation.

[victor two]

There is no legal power allowing anyone to impose a "hiring ban" on every airline in the country? What - that oily little independent with the weird name is going to march into the senate and demand a national hiring freeze because he gets a letter from some angry jetstar pilot reject or pilot union halfwit on his fourth divorce. Get real!

There is actually no IR mess here anyway. It's a pretty simple recruitment process. It works like this -

an employer offers out postions containing a variety of terms and conditons. If you accept a job you agree to be bound by those requirements. Still with me??
Then you acccept the job and appparently spend the rest of your life complaining about how hard done by you are and doing everything you can to run down the employer that you suckholed up to in the interviews and promised your undivided loyalty to! It's a simple, proven process.

But hey - If you dont like those terms and conditions - dont apply. Go away and stop annoying people. Apply for other jobs and keep right on jump starting your clapped out old cessna every morning in between washing your chief pilots car. Its a perosnal decison really! Noone has a gun to your heads on this kids!

[waren9]

victor 2

I think GG was referring to a hiring ban issued by the unions to inform as many pilots as possible that taking a job with that mob is off limits.

[Xcel]

Yes... But didn't the country vote against "work choices"...

I think the problem here is not those individuals who agreed to the crap conditions but the collective group who vote in eba's, as a group, have to live up to these conditions. And your right it is "kids" they are targeting who have no industry experience to know what the ramifications and effect it is having on the industry as a whole.

Bring on the 1500hr rule senators, if anything we might get some guys with more life experience than daddy's pay cheque.

Where is afap, aipa, fair work Australia on all this?

Would love to see what's next - casual conditions for $12.50/Hr perhaps ... Oh but I can justify it with my shiny new uniform I bought myself.

No wonder our eba is going nowhere ... I'm sure they keep peering over the fence and thinking - ooo look what we "could" be getting away with - we are actually overpaying our staff!!

In any case good luck to those who choose to go down this path, you reap what you sow.

[rmcdonal]

Where is afap, aipa, fair work Australia on all this?
I am sure they are looking into this, AFAP already informed their members that they were looking into this in the last edition of 'Airwaves'. According to the AIPA website they are looking into this too.
Both AIPA and AFAP inform their membership of happenings via alternate means then PPRUNE, please don't mistake their lack of comment on this site as lack of action on their behalf.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

rmcdonel
Yes I agree. The AFAP has definaftely lifted its game over the last few years and my ealings with them have been positive in all instances. If they can do something they will remember they have to operate within the law. If this package is legal its a done deal.

As said by a previous poster, it is a personal choice and nobody is holding a gun to your head. So if you apply for these positions be prepared to live with it.

SN

[eocvictim]

Victor two, how could you miss the point by so much? No one here is dumb enough to apply, we couldn't care less if this were only to impact on the idiots stupid enough to sell themselves to it. However the pilots collective concern should be with how this plan will impact the entire industry. If you honestly believe that Jetstar's abuse of T and C's won't affect you, I really feel sorry for your ignorance.

[Roger Greendeck]

victor two, actually there is an IR mess here, assuming that Jetstar is planning to hire pilots on a different contract to the EBA.

The point of an enterprise agreement is that it applies to everyone doing the job at the company, including new hires, and just as the employees are bound by it the company is too. You are right when you accept what a company offers but when you accept it, it is based on your assessment of their offer including how long they agree to keep to it. If the company can arbitrarily change the conditions how can you assess their offer? and why should you be bound by it. 'Sure I said that I would turn up for work on time, but I've changed my mind'.

Regardless of what any newly offered contract says the award is still the minimum standard. If some of the reports on this thread are true then Jetstar are trying to get pilots to sign up below the award standard. It wont stand up in FWA but it will cause lots of angst in the mean time.

[metrosmoker]

The line in the sand has been drawn!
Actaully I think this is the fourth or fifth line in the sand that has been drawn by JQ pilots.
Did the tide wash away the last one away, or did we just step back and draw a new one because the other line`s in the sand was.......what? I don`t know.
Emplored to join a union late last year, which I did. For what? I am still waiting for AIPA to take action over the Singapore A330 deal.
Yet I am continaully assured that the union`s are not taking this lying down. Yet nothing gets done.
The compnay couldn`t even publish a seniority list on time. But that was not worth the time or effort of the JPC or the union to fight. So now the company has a precedence set where, "well the boys didn`t care about that issue, so we assumed they wouldn`t care about this issue".
If the compnay is not following the letter of the EBA, it should be an issued raised everytime, no matter how small or insignificant. Not just when AIPA or the JPC deem it in thier best interest.
Cadets are not on the EBA, AIPA were looking after them when sh1t first hit the fan. So why were they allowed to work on anything but the EBA. If they couldn`t be accomodated on the EBA, then they don`t work for Jet*. Full stop end of story.
AIPA have got to work out who they are fighting for. And Qantas pilots better wake and realise that what happens at Jet* will have repercussions for themselves. I keep hearing how this is a Jet* problem and JQ pilots must fight this. This could not be more a Qantas problem.

Point of all this. Talk is cheap. Action must be taken. There is not much sand left on the beach. Time for the union`s to come out with thier grand plan of attack. Or have what I have suspected all along is true, there is nothing we can do about it and are just wasting our time. There is plenty of sand in the middle east. We can all go there and draw lines in the sand till the sun sets on our careers.

['holic]

And Qantas pilots better wake and realise that what happens at Jet* will have repercussions for themselves. I keep hearing how this is a Jet* problem and JQ pilots must fight this. This could not be more a Qantas problem.Rest assured, Qantas Pilots have been aware of the situation a lot longer than you. Probably since about, oh, when they themselves were undercut by blokes like you. So rather than lecturing us, a little more humility and perhaps reading up on the definition of "irony" would go a long way to enhancing your credibility.

Emplored (sic) to join a union late last year, which I did. For what? I am still waiting for AIPA to take action over the Singapore A330 deal.So let me understand this. Basically, you stonewall AIPA until things turn pear shaped, then join and immediately demand they fix the problems which, if not caused by your actions, were certainly accelerated because of them. Listen, you know you're in this for you and I know you're in this for you, but at least try and maintain some semblance of being a team player, you know, just for appearances.

[Roller Merlin]

Jetstar goes back to the future in a huff __
AIPA email
In what can only be described as typically bizarre, senior Jetstar management decided to walk out of a Jetstar Pilot’s Consultative Committee meeting today, because Jetstar pilots had meekly and only sought to bring industrial representation along to the meeting as well.

As the photograph on AIPA’s website (CLICK HERE) attests, Jetstar would prefer to not be involved in a meeting with union representatives than to discuss its conduct with pilots.

To make matters even weirder, Jetstar pilots informed senior management in writing that they were going to be bringing AIPA and AFAP staff to the meeting and at no time was that challenged - until today.

Of course, the first item on the meeting agenda was a “discussion” about Jetstar’s decision to employ pilots on individual contracts, however that could not occur since Jetstar insisted that industrial representatives vacate the room before the meeting could proceed in a cuddly way between pilots and management. Without hesitation, that demand was met with a polite and unified “no” from the pilots.

So much for consultation. Indeed at a time when the ordinary person would think it quite appropriate for pilots to be able to seek immediate industrial relations assistance Jetstar management prefers to go back 100 years to revisit out dated Union avoidance tactics.

Pilots would be well advised to consider what Jetstar is afraid of to the extent that they cannot stomach a consultative meeting with union representatives in the room. The answer of course is that they are afraid of a united pilot body. Which, ironically Jetstar appears to be creating by its own out dated industrial relations approach.

Today may well mark the day that Jetstar pilots drew a line in the sand. If you want to make sure this line is deep and wide, ensure you and other pilots are members of AIPA.

I know that the JPC and AIPA guys have been putting lots of time into these things. But they can only plan, meet and write so much...if there is no reaction from JQ then things can only escalate.

Now we are starting to see what happens to an airline being run along the lines of "Wall Street" with predictable results to squeeze out more profits pressure test the markets. The only way this behavior will stop is through commercial impact and tighter regulation (senate enquiry). And we all know what happened to Wall Street!

[Gear in transit]

if there is no reaction from JQ then things can only escalate

Agreed, but seeing industrial action isn't legal and there is only 10 days off a month that I can refuse to work on, what do you propose? Most guys are all ears to suggestions.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

holic
You know what? Your dead right. The only thing you neglected to mention is that your in this for you also and have been for a lot longer than the masses this will affect. In fact it was the very first who were in this "just for themselves" that forgot about those starting from "X date forward" that started this very process and we all know who they are.

Edit: metrosmoker, you should have joined long ago, its not cool to just pay as you need. Sorry but that the way it is. The union cannot cover you for an act that predates the date you joined. But i'm sure they'll help where they can anyway.

SN

[Flava Saver]

In an interesting twist, the JQ Recruitment lady has been ringing the many applicants yesterday & today that were offered the 'contract' last week wanting to know why they've declined. :ugh:

To the handfull of drivers (you know who you are), thanks for not accepting. :ok:

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Holic is 100% correct.

The orange cancer crowd can suffer in your jocks.

You were all warned, yet decided to do it anyway.

You are worried about the scum who will be under cutting you and your sub standard (IMHO) EBA in the very near future, just like you did to the rest of us.

F*^& them and feed them fish heads.

['holic]

Fair point, SN, I am in the union for myself, as we all are to a certain extent. But at the same time, I also want to see a good result for other union members. I want to see the company treat all employees in a fair manner, and not make me feel like the whole EBA negotiation process is being dragged along by a piece of rope tied to my balls.

For example, it makes no difference to me if I'm undercut by Australian J* pilots flying 330s based in Australia, or contract pilots flying 330s based in SIN. But I'm happy to see union resources spent securing those jobs for J* pilots because they are already in the group.

I accept that sometimes decisions get made which will have an adverse effect on me, but which are for the greater good. All I've seen from some blokes on this forum who've been in the union for 10 minutes is a lot of demanding and pontificating, when a lot of what they're demanding isn't achievable or legal. And 9 times out of 10 they haven't even bothered to pick up the phone and call AIPA to get first hand info.

In fact it was the very first who were in this "just for themselves" that forgot about those starting from "X date forward" that started this very process and we all know who they are.Sorry, I don't. Care to expand on that.

[The Green Goblin]

From what I hear, most who have been offered the contract have declined.

Too bloody right.

This is unethical, unjust and akin to corporate bullying. Why hire 3 part time Pilots when you can hire 2 full timers? The real crux is they are trying to get an FO for 60k and are only paying them for their rostered flying and not standby. They still expect them to be available however and need to approve ANY outside employment other than Jetstar.

Some have been rang a few times by Jetstar trying to sell them the job. Next you'll have telemarketers from India ringing you!

[The Kelpie]

Part time should mean part time, and that means part time duty, part time availability on the roster, pro-rata standby days per roster and should mean Pro-rata FDL availability to allow you seek employment elsewhere.

By insisting that the whole of your FDL is reserved for Jetstar use only they are essentially taking away you ability to supplement your part time income in your profession elsewhere.

Unfortunately Jetstar do not understand this concept. JQ want all the benefits of full time employees at Part Time commitment from them.

C'mon Jetstar you are not on.

Well Done to the guys who have seen this joke of a contract for what it is and said NO!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[SOPS]

How did our industry come to this????.....Wait, I think I remember when it began....I am just not allowed to discuss it here......:ugh: The words reap and sow come to mind however.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

'holic
No probs. The only points I would make are;

1/ I have seen a few pilot groups sign off on an EBA that gives that group a better deal than say anyone who starts with the company from that date on. I personally don't believe in this its just not a good look. I personally believe that when this started to happen, and that was well before I started out, that was the beginning of what we have come to today.

2/ I am a union member and have been for over 12 years. I have never had to use their resources except when negotiating an EBA. On those occasions they were very helpful to the point of being instrumental to the outcome. The thing is this situation has been cooking for a long time. If everybody joined the union today it would still take a long time and one hell of a fight to reverse the trend.

Over the years pilots have allowed themselves to become a fragmented group. I my opinion we need a good award to create a benchmark for the various EBA's. That document should cover everyone from the bottom of GA to the top of the airlines. If that happened we would all be one group fighting one cause and looking out for each other. We would be empowered by our shear weight of numbers.

I made the comment in my prev post about "we all know who they are". That was not meant to offend I was referring to the era rather than any individual. Like you I do not like to see this level of degradation of our T & C's as once the rot sets in it tends to infect other sectors. It also makes it hard to move up to an airline job if you have to take a pay cut!
SN

[Roxy_Chick_1989]

I cant believe this is what I have to look forward to throughout my aviation career, well actually I can.

[The Green Goblin]

I wouldn't normally post this however this is too important not too.

I'd suggest now is the time for every Pilot in Australia to join a union, and fight the good fight.

As far as I'm concerned it's them vs us. It's time to get rid of these blow ins from our industry that we love and hold so dear.

From The AFAP

Last week pilot reps Darren Davis, Tony Walker and I attended a meeting with Company
management (Mark Rindfleish and David Hall) in Melbourne.
At this meeting the company advised that it intended to employ approximately 50 new First Officers
under individual employment contracts with a company called Jetstar Group Pty Limited – not under
the Jetstar Airways Pilots Agreement 2008 (“Jetstar EBA”) of which Jetstar Airways Pty Limited is a
party.
Jetstar Group Pty Limited is the company which recently offered individual contracts to a number of
cadets (see AFAP Airwaves April 2011 edition for further details on the cadet contracts).
On Friday last week (6 May 2011) the company sent out copies of the proposed individual
employment contracts with Jetstar Group Pty Limited to a large number of pilots on the Jetstar “hold
file” and asked for an indication of their interest by Monday this week.
The Jetstar Council and AFAP have grave concerns over these Jetstar Group Pty Limited individual
employment contracts. The proposed contract is deficient compared to the Jetstar EBA in almost
every regard. By way of example, the Jetstar Group Pty Limited individual contract:
 Deems the pilot to be part-time although required to be available Monday to Sunday;
 Is read in conjunction with a document titled Jetstar Group Pilot Policy which may be
changed at the “absolute discretion” of the company;
 Provides for a minimum wage of just $60,600 for an A320 F/O (the minimum base salary
under the Jetstar EBA is $87,262);
 Does not provide for wage increases (only an annual review at the discretion of Jetstar);
 Uses block hours, not credit hours, for the payment of salary;
 Provides a minimum 9 days off per month (not 11 as per the Jetstar EBA);
 Defines a day off as a twenty four hour period free of duty;
 Provides for a lower payment when working on a day off compared to the Jetstar EBA;
 Has 3 hour buffers either side of the original duty when displaced;
 Provides for a three year $40k bond/repayment agreement for training costs;
 Seeks to absorb all entitlements, benefits or payments under the award or other industrial
instrument into the hourly rate for each block hour;
 Pays lower meal allowance amounts than the Jetstar EBA and Award;
 Does not guarantee airport parking; and
 The list goes on.
As we have previously stated, this type of avoidance of collective agreement obligations by the
creation of separate employing companies is a threat to all pilots in Australia.Today we were scheduled to hold a JPCC meeting in Melbourne. On 5 May 2011 we notified the
company that a representative of the AFAP and AIPA would also be attending the meeting. Despite
this, upon arrival the company refused to commence the meeting if either representative remained
present. We stressed that we wanted to meet and discuss the issues but that we also wanted our
respective industrial representatives present (Simon Lutton from the AFAP and Kristian Bolwell from
AIPA). The company refused the request and simply walked out.
We have previously expressed to management our strong objection to the employment of pilots by
Jetstar Group Pty Limited under these individual contracts (and not by Jetstar Airways Pty Limited
under the Jetstar EBA).
It is clear to us that the company has made up its mind and is determined to persist with these
disgraceful individual employment contracts.
Since the initiation of the Jetstar cadet contracts a couple of weeks ago, Simon Lutton (AFAP) and I
have also been meeting with Senior Counsel and a solicitor engaged by the AFAP to discuss all
available legal remedies and options to protect your interests.
Rest assured we are exploring every possible step to resist and overcome this attack upon your
collective agreement.
We will keep you informed of developments.
In the meantime I ask that you distribute this newsletter to your colleagues and if they are not a
union member, please encourage them to join the AFAP as soon as possible. We need as much
support and unity from the Jetstar pilot group as possible at this time.
If you have any questions regarding this matter please contact me on [email protected] and/or
Simon Lutton at the AFAP on [email protected], ph (03) 9928 5737 or mobile 0419 482 582.
Regards
Captain Ben Bollen
AFAP Jetstar Council Vice-Chair

[eocvictim]

I know there are more than a few guys still bitter over the inception of Jetstar and the introduction of LCC to Australia but thumbing your nose and saying "I told you so" wont give you impunity.

Ok anyone with more forethought than what's for diner could have foretold this situation; however here we are. This problem and the sound future of the aviation industry will not be resolved without unity. As said, unity throughout the ranks and the recognition of everyones choice for whom they work.

Remember not everyone likes the prospect of being an SO for 10 years, not everyone wants to fly Long haul, not everyone wants to fly pax, not everyone wants to fly ILS to ILS, not everyone wants to have to overnight and not everyone wants to fly a jet (what a crazy prospect, musta been a QF reject!)

The attitude of the aviation industry towards those who choose not fly for an airline is akin to ousting a rural doctor for not becoming a neurosurgeon. It's that attitude that keeps the rest of us from backing you through crisis. Unfortunately we're all in it together from C&T on a 380 to a CPL in a 210, those who stand strong by their laurels and those that will step over their own mother to get that next gig.

I sound like a ******* preacher.

[KRUSTY 34]

A Country Doctor to a Neurosurgeon. What a great analogy eocvictim. Something that all pilots should think about.

I'll tell you one thing, JQ management have more front than Ned Kelly, and they may just end up the same way. Metaphorically of course. They did a serious about face with the 4 CPL Cadets during the Senate Enquiry, but it seems that once out of the spotlight it's full speed ahead, and damn the legal niceities!

Get behind the Union boys and girls. JQ have shown you in no uncertain terms they are Hell bent on destroying your careers. A lot has been said about employment freezes, saying no to substandard contracts, and the like. But anyone saying yes to this latest bastardisation, really do need to have their head's read!

[KRUSTY 34]

Thanks eovictim. Believe it or not I actually got it, but on re-reading my post It probably didn't come across that way.

Jetstar are pricing themselves out of the "professional" pilot market. Bit hard for some wanabees to get their heads around I know, but think about it. Despite what they tell (lie) to prospective Cadet pilots, they are employing apprentices, with a view to turning them into indentured tradespeople at best. Tradespeople I may add that are on the whole remunerated and treated more poorly than many of their Earth-bound cousins. Tradespeople, that are stuck with the sh!t sandwich because they are too specialised and/or poor to break their existing contract and seek employment elsewhere.

This will be the Jetstar legacy to Australian Professional Aviation.

The real professional pilots will find their nich with operators that cannot afford to have inexperienced and disaffected individuals in their cockpits, and will either pay accordingly, or go out of business.

Irony can be quite ironic sometimes.

[Mr.Bloggs]

I've always admired you Aussies as being fair-minded and strong folk. (Flew with folk from both sides of the Ansett fight and have some background knowledge, although a Brit myself).

It seems like greed is getting the better of some of your people now, both in Jetstar management and in new hires. Hope you established pilots stand up to this nasty and manipulative management. They will try to divide and conquer; SOP for these b......s.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Krusty
Don't you worry, if this is allowed to get up it will infect the rest of the aviation sector so fast we won't no what happened. Still thats OK I have a trade to fall back on if gets that untidy. I'll look after myself because no one else will GAS.

If taking 60K is "just looking out for yourself" well ain't that just a dandy deal. Bring on the uninitiated this will be a baptism of fire. What a happy bunch they'll be. Sure they'll get the chicks but they will still have to explain why they drive a 77 Torana thats just been defected due rust!

SN

[tryhard1]

If taking 60K is "just looking out for yourself" well ain't that just a dandy deal. Bring on the uninitiated this will be a baptism of fire. What a happy bunch they'll be. Sure they'll get the chicks but they will still have to explain why they drive a 77 Torana thats just been defected due rust!


And why they also still need to live at home with mum and dad... who are proud of their child by the way for flying a shinny jet aircraft!

[OneDotLow]

Has anyone got the link to that you tube video of the kid wanting to be a Jetstar Pilot cadet?

It looks like it has been removed from youtube.

He said he was going to be on 70K a year, but obviously he signed before he saw the conditions! :yuk:

[Oldmate]

These guys will be good on the radio, because I would hope they will never be given a sector.

[chockchucker]

Seems to me it's the Qantas/Jetstar management that are on a 'kamakaze' course of action as opposed to the unions.................



The Jetstar war on pilots
May 14, 2011 – 8:00 am, by Ben Sandilands

It is normal for companies to try and pay employees as little as possible, and eradicate the higher paid for the lower paid.

That’s one of the facts of life in business.

But reading the new permanent part time pilot agreements on offer by Jetstar raises three obvious questions.

Does the company understand that without ‘engaged’ pilots it risks its future?
Why work for anyone that despises you, and
Why would anyone put up with this in an airline industry in which more successful carriers like Singapore Airlines and Emirates, despite their claimed labor relations issues, place a richer, longer term value on pilots, and continue to eat Qantas and Jetstar?

These are some of the acts of self harm new pilots commit if they accept the Jetstar arrangement.

They are liable to dismissal for any reason in the first year, involving the double penalty of losing their job and having to repay around $40,000 in the costs of being trained to fly A320s.
They can be moved anywhere in the Jetstar franchises, including Singapore and New Zealand and not just between Jetstar’s Australian bases
Overseas resettlement at Jetstar’s discretion may involve being paid less than in Australia taking into account different industrial conditions

The contracts are permanent part-time deals, guaranteeing a minimum 600 hours flying duty a year which is around 300 hours less than pilots employed under the current Jetstar Australian EBA which expires in 2013.

In its defence, Jetstar says the pilots can expect to fly around 800 hours a year minimum and insists that the new part time agreements disadvantage no-one.

Jetstar also says it is seeking more flexible pilot arrangements to better match the seasonality of travel demand across its franchises and within Australia.

One of the Jetstar pilots who analysed the new contracts calculated that a flight attendant performing 1320 duty hours a year on the current cabin manager EBA would earn $63,204, while on 600 hours flight duty time a Jetstar cadet pilot would make $65,040 and a first officer $68,400.

Cabin attendants work hard for their money and also play a critical role in the safety of an aircraft in an emergency, however very few if any airlines in the world have such a low differential in the value they place on pilots and flight attendants.

It can be argued that these figures are further evidence that Jetstar management is so disengaged from the technical realities of airline operations that it sees pilots as just another labor unit of no exceptional worth.

In the big picture these part time contracts tell us more about the pitiful self loathing that the board and management of the Qantas Group has for the Australian business it keeps denigrating as unprofitable, unsustainable, and one gathers, all too difficult to run as a competitive enterprise under Australian rules.

With these sort of attitudes is it surprising that Qantas as a group is imploding, a process hastened by cross subsidising Jetstar to make its figures look acceptable without regard to a reality that much depends on taking jets and costs off the full service brand the company says it can’t afford to run.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

In good times they may well be flying about 800 hours per year. But I think Qantas wants to get the level of flexibility that Tiger has. ie If we have to reduce capacity due to a market downturn then ALL our costs come down and we maintain our margins. Like power by the hour engine hire.

From a pilots point of view this does not allow for a decent reliable living. I am still in GA, albeit at the top end, and I would have to take a cut of 47K to go there. Its not like your going to get a command any time soon either. That and the fact they can send you wherever whenever makes it a no go. Not even close. Looks to me like they are looking to tranform their labour dynamic completely over the next 20 years or so.

Pilots will be looked upon as desperate individuals with no pride and low value skills.
SN

[waren9]

You're on to it SN.

A good job in GA is the place to be.

[The Green Machine]

Ecovictim,
If we all could apply what your suggest in your posts, UNITY, we woulds all be in a much better position. Cheers to you Buddy

[Chadzat]

TO ANY POTENTIAL CANDIDATE READING THIS THREAD AND STILL CONSIDERING APPLYING-

Read this link!

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/448354-australian-airline-wages-compilation.html

The whole idea of a job is to work the least for the most amount of pay. Its pretty simple.

Check out the pay figures above and have a think about the fact that you will be getting paid LESS than 46 seat turboprop F/O's.

The decision should make itself.

[Artificial Horizon]

I don't get it!!! Our Chief Pilot put out a very nice e-mail this morning stating what an excellent contract this is. I noticed a few things wrong though, he stated that these pilots would be worked to 850 hours per year and would therefore actually be earning the same as an EBA pilot!! Then he went on to say that they had to call it a 'part time' contract as they were only guaranteeing 600 hours per year...... so which one is it??? :ugh::{ If they fully expect to work these pilots 850 hours just pay them a decent 'full time' wage. Also if this new contract is so similar to the EBA and if they fully intend to honour the EBA as stated in the email, then why are they bothering with the this new contract at all. He also says that there would still be new EBA commands and that nothing would change before he then says these new pilots would be promoted on merit when the Group Commands are required. Could it be that my CP is being less than honest with me??? :sad::E

Confused??!!

[breakfastburrito]

AH - Superannuation guarantee, workers comp premiums, annual/sick/URTI leave.

If two pilots, an EBA, and and a jetstar group pilot fly the same hours, they may well receive the very similar in-hand deposited in their bank accounts for 850 hours. However, what goes into the superannuation account will be different at the end. The EBA pilot will also have more leave days.
"Part time" is simply semantics to claw back from the every possible dollar legally entitled to a pilot from the Air Pilots Award 2010 & the superannuation legislation. j

The contactablity & inability to leave "home base" on days off without the express consent of crewing make this a draconian contract, enslavement in the truest sense of the word. Free time is literally at the companies pleasure.

[The Green Goblin]

The bottom line is the EBA IS THE MINIMUM!!!

Any Pilot wearing a Jetstar uniform, flying a Jetstar VH registered aircraft and receiving a salary from Jetstar, must be employed and protected by the EBA.

If a company can agree to an EBA, then start another company to bypass it what is the point?

If the company feels the need to employ part time pilots it must be negotiated and included in the provisions of the existing EBA.

Anything other than this is a farce, and clear contempt for every system Australia has in place to protect its workers.

If Gillard doesn't have the balls to do something about this, then it's time someone did!

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Every Group -

Qantas LAMEs
Jetstar Engineers
Qantas Pilots
Jetstar Pilots
CC, Ramp staff and the the rest

- need to negotiate clauses in their upcoming EA's known as a contractors clause to prevent this rubbish. It is central to the LAME and Pilot disputes already and this maggot of a mob will abuse the system if we don't fight together for the protection.

[stan dupp]

Dear 17 year old me,

You are dreaming of becoming a professional airline pilot.
You eat, sleep and talk of nothing but becoming a proffessional Airline pilot.
There mere sound of an aircraft makes you look to the skies and smile that goofy smile...

Dear 17 year old me,

You are studying harder than ever to ensure you pass your Maths, Physics and English because without it, you cannot become a Professional Airline Pilot. Your staying up til 2 am every night because calculus just isn't sinking in... But in the back of your mind, you can almost see yourself as that Professional Airline Pilot..

Dear 17 year old me,

Your working as many hours as you can get at that minimum pay job because you know you need another $4000 to get your unrestricted licence. You feel you don't have a great social life (because you can't help but realise that the 100 bucks your mates are p!ssing up the wall every weekend is another hour towards your dream) But you don't mind too much, you know that when you reach your goal at the end, you can then have the social life you are watching your mates enjoy :)

Dear 17 year old me.....

In 17 years time, the words Proffessional and pilot can no longer be used together in the same sentence.... You will end up back on minimum wage and feel completely saddened at the fact that you have wasted the best years of your life on a dream that has been killed by only a handful of sadistic bars
turds.

Dear 17 year old me.....
Stop wasting your life! go have the fun with your mates, buy that car that you are dreaming about owning (you have the money in your account) go to uni or take up a trade, start looking at the mines!!!! You have only one shot at life, and your youth will pass in the blink of an eye. When you become a REAL proffessional, buy yourself that plane - you'll have it before your 30!!

If you're 17, once was 17, about to turn 17 or know someone who is, was or is turning 17 and considering becoming a (ahem) proffessional Airline pilot, pass this onto them, stick it on your facebook profile.... Don't let them fall to the prey that is Onestar!!!

[Xcel]

Instead of calculus it should of been English...

I agree with sentiment though - very "professional"

[Jetsbest]

You're both wrong! It should have been English. :}

[Tidbinbilla]

Instead of calculus it should of been English...

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. :oh::}

[ejectx3]

"Should of"...why has an entire generation decided to butcher the English language?

[stan dupp]

No, I was correct.... Calculus had me up til 2am, english had me up til 3.....

My apologies for my ingrish, I am trying to read the inundation of emails to a certain cp MR and varmin DH at the same time of writing my post....

[Xcel]

Why have the older generations lost their grasp of subtle humour...

Rararararara funny sh!t watch this thread head down hill from here.

"lovin it"

[FullySickBro]

Who knows, maybe Jetstar envisage these guys working full time??

Roughly speaking, for every 100 full time pilot they can have 150 part timers. Fast forward a couple of years when new aircraft start arriving (787s). The Jetstar model is so successful they couldn't possibly give back the A330s to Qf.

Says J* management- "So are you j* guys interested in flying full time?" "Hell yes!", is what I think will be the answer. Well then its done- a nice shiny fleet consisting of A320, A330 and now B787s with a cheap pilot workforce ready to go with no new hires and only retraining onto Boeing required for the lucky few.

Now over to Qf mainline. Current situation- As yet no 787 payscales has been discussed at the negotiating table as it's arrival "is years away". Plus job security clauses are a no no.

Says Qf management "Well sorry guys- there's no job security clause to speak of and all your long service leave and other strategies to deal with the pilot surplus has been exhausted. So its 90 hr flexi lines or another round of redundancies. What's your pick?"

Please tell me I have an over active imagination!

[breakfastburrito]

So its 90 hr flexi lines or another round of redundancies. What's your pick?"
They won't be falling for the flexi line bluff again! The "savings" from the last when straight into Dixon's pocket - a direct wealth transfer. This forces the company to make a very unpalatable choice. Redundancies would be a PR nightmare - it would validate everything the mainline pilots have been saying.

With respect to the part-timers, there are several advantages. From a straight financial perspective, they are probably making a quite a few dollars from the endorsement (GST rebate, + $10,000 over the Alteon list price).
Then there's the over-supply. It is in managements interests to flood the market with FO's, increase supply, drive down the price. Observing the European experience this exactly what has occurred.

They could then offer a crewing services to client airlines (specifically allowed in the contract) - with experienced pilots, and skim a nice little profit, money for jam.

Given the low base pay, I can see every incentive for jetstar to operate as a pilot training machine, churning out as many fools as they can get through the door. It works for them in so many ways, giving them a large pool of hungry pilots.

[Roller Merlin]

Right on the money , Brekkyburrito. They are pursuing a strategy of "Make a business from Dreamers"....those who pay get to play.

The Management risk however are the gates they cannot control. They have already tried to put Check Captains on contracts....CASA apparently won't allow it as CCs must be full time employees of the AOC Holder.

But then again, Training captains are voluntary positions and they are paid less than CCs...perhaps they could be forced onto contracts (except for the EBA provisions for training captains). No Training Captains willing to train contractors= No Contract Pilots.

Our greatest hope (and biggest risk) in all this lies with the Training and Checking Department.

[Stiff Under Carriage]

Breakfastburrito, exactly, again spot on.

With respect to the part-timers, there are several advantages. From a straight financial perspective, they are probably making a quite a few dollars from the endorsement (GST rebate, + $10,000 over the Alteon list price).

The sooner cadets release this the better, they are paying a percentage on their own wage. This is a rort.

They simply want a glorified training camp at the same time running around passengers.

[Nothing but blue sky]

After 8 years, after beginning training, they've finally paid off their 320endo and now have a 137k FEE-HELP debt to deal with!!

Have they thought about how they are going to live??

Not a pretty sight, and according to the Jet* Group Contract.. whatever that is supposed to mean... their FEE-HELP debt will increase into perpetuity as they wont be earning enough to make substantial reductions!

Can anyone PM the Jetstar Group Contract (Team Jetstar....)? to me..

[Pekin Dog]

There was an add on afap the other week that jetstar was accepting applications for FO positions and the deadline was Monday the 13th of feb.

Anyone have any new's on how many they are looking at hiring? Bases? (Probably Darwin)

Anyone hear anything or having interviews in the near future?

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Interviews underway.

[BUSH PILOT]

Would also love to see the DEFO contract if someone in the know would be kind enough to PM me...

[AileronsNeutral]

Would also love to see the DEFO contract if someone in the know would be kind enough to PM me...Same here, would also appreciate any tips for the interview and sim ride via PM

[Boomerang]

I think the "DEFO contract" you are looking for is the publicly available 2008 EBA? With all new rates for 2012 :-) Minimum 89,880 for first 12 months, after that 98,051 pending new EBA for 2013.

[Normasars]

WOW, That much!!

You could all do FIFO work and set yourselves up for life on double the coin :ugh:

Slave labour! Enjoy

[Eastmoore]

No you will be on the Flexi Line pay.

75% of the above pay. $67410

Over time after 56 hours a month at the First year FO rate divided by 787 = $114.20

Work Day off at First year FO rate divided by 231 = $389 no day in lieu double it $778

Standard Allowances.

15 Days off a month, No standby days, 7 days off in a row guaranteed.

Annual leave 6 weeks a year in blocks of months.

Only 10% of Pilots can be Flexi line so when this is reached the most senior Flexi line FO offered Full Time.

That’s it Basically

[Captain Biggles84]

Anyone on the actual Flexi-Line Contract care to comment if its actually a rort and you get shafted out of extra coin?? Or is it as per Jetstar being flat out 99% of the time everyone is coin over 56hrs per month and making the same if not more than the EBA guys??

My gut tells me it is prob a rort but be interested to hear from some people on the actually contract or who know people who know some that are??

Cheers

[toolish]

Think about it for a moment, the company wants and gets 10% of the pilots on a lower base (56hrs) to even out the peaks and troughs and people actually think they will get more than 56hrs in the 8 or so quiet months each year.:ugh::ugh:

Thats the plan anyway and we all know how good Jetstar is at executing a plan.

I have heard that HR is spinning to new recruits that they will get paid more on flexi so it is a reasonable question. Just realise Jetstar HR lies regularly

[Captain Biggles84]

Anyone able to PM me a roster.. I guess a DRW one would be good as that's most likely where u get sent. But anywhere would suffice.. I hear that new EBA the ush from management will be for everyone on Flexi-Line as was the old Ansett way.. Just a question of how low it is I guess....

[Lookleft]

Flexible-line is a Jetstar invention. Ansett just had one set of working conditions.

[Thumbs up]

Info to digest for all those considering Jetstar DEFO or cadet.

Spoke to a J* Capt who told me during the week he flew with an F/O (cadet) whose gross last month was $2200, take home $1700. !!!.

I believe all new F/O'S join on flexiline and there could be months like above....or less!!!.

Thumbs

[Ollie Onion]

I just can't see that as being true with the Cadets on $59,000 base salary plus all the other EBA increments. The current crop of cadets are not paying anything back for training and simply have a 3 year bond. So even with no overnights, no overtime etc they would bring home at least $4900 per month.

[teresa green]

If it helps. I have three kids that fly, 2 with QF 1 with JQ. They all agree on one thing, both companies are Arseh$^#s, probably JQ is the bigger AH, but is far more likely to around in ten to twenty years time. Take your pick. :rolleyes:

[MikeOxlong]

Spoke to a J* Capt who told me during the week he flew with an F/O (cadet) whose gross last month was $2200, take home $1700. !!!.

I find that hard to believe. As Ollie says, based on the Flexi-Line agreement, he would be earning a minimum of $4900 a month unless he took some sort of unpaid leave during that time.

[mcgrath50]

I just can't see that as being true with the Cadets on $59,000 base salary plus all the other EBA increments. The current crop of cadets are not paying anything back for training and simply have a 3 year bond. So even with no overnights, no overtime etc they would bring home at least $4900 per month.

False, the have HECS payments and payments to Jetstar after their first year. But I seem to remember having this argument with you before, so won't take it any further.

[Thumbs up]

I just can't see that as being true with the Cadets on $59,000 base salary plus all the other EBA increments. The current crop of cadets are not paying anything back for training and simply have a 3 year bond. So even with no overnights, no overtime etc they would bring home at least $4900 per month.

The way it was explained to me is that under flexiline you are guaranteed 55 or so hours a month calculated over a quarter (3 months/165 hours). If you do 150 hours in the first 2 months then the only obligation is for J* to pay for 15 hours for the 3rd month, worked or not. My guess this is what happened to the cadet.

Others here might be able to verify the 3 month deal with flexiline.

$59k gross is yet to be taxed and and wouldn't equate to $4900/month take home.

Thumbs

[Ollie Onion]

Thumbs,

Yep sorry, I did mean to say 'gross' not take home. I hadn't considered that J* could offset good months again bad months to pay less in the lean months. Kind of makes sense though. Although surely this is just a case of budgeting then, you know that your average gross is not going to be less than $4900 so if you have a really busy month and bring home well in excess of this then surely you have to put a bit aside for the lean month.

[Captain Biggles84]

If there guaranteeing 55hrs a month surely they have to honour that.. Otherwise guarantee 165hrs over three months..

If that is the case def will not be taking that ****e offer.. How the hell can people expect to pay a mortgage with that kind of fluctuation.. Anyone who agrees to this do ur homework. Because no doubt when it's not busy you will only get the min hrs and that's what ur lifestyle needs to based around..

Also with the flexi line are they still expecting you to cough up for the endo?

[Ollie Onion]

Yep, I think we are getting a little confused, from memory the flexi line contract guarantees 150 hours per quarter with the overtime rate each month kicking in at 55 hours (which is not guaranteed). I hadn't thought about them 'averaging' the hours over the three months so you could do 80 hours in the first two months which would satisfy the 150 hours in that quarter meaning in month three they could publish you a roster with NO flying on it. I had assumed they would roster 50 hours per month minimum, but then again we are dealing with Jetstar here!

[The Green Goblin]

Guys the flexi line agreement is posted on the AFAP website.

There is nothing about averaging hours over three month periods that I can see.

While a ****e deal if you are a junior FO, it's a pretty good deal if you're a senior Captain or checkie.

So horses for courses really.

If you don't like it, don't sign it. If Jetstar can't find the guys to sign it, they will amend the deal on offer just like they did with Jetstar group contracts.

[Captain Biggles84]

Does anyone know what the Pilot body will move for once the EBA expires this year.. Will the Flexi Line be altered or abolished?? Or given that the JPC are the ones who voted it in it will prob stay.. Surely they need to bring in restrictions against making any new hires taking it.. If there are older senior Capts or Checkies who are happy with it then by all means.. But making a brand new F/O sign up as well as paying for an endo in the first 33 months is a bit of a joke.. More so that the fact the senior pilot body are happy to let this be the case..

[maggot]

a bit of a joke


TA-DAH!


:ugh::{

[fearcampaign]

bearing gifts rather

[Lookleft]

I don't think there are any Greeks who have the money for gifts!

[SHVC]

Just a simple look at their website will show you the minimum requirements. The time it took you to write that post it would of been quicker for you to look it up yourself.

[Roger Greendeck]

I know they do still hire people with experience but can't exactly enlighten you as to what they are looking for. It certainly not a silly question because I can assure you that having the minimums and submitting an application is no guarantee of getting an interview.

[gamma69]

anyone get a call from Jstar pilot recruitment in the last couple of days?

[lil_blueberry]

I have been waiting on the Jetstar hold file for more than 18 months.

It is interesting to note that people that went for interviews about 6 months ago are already in sim/groundschool.

It can only point to one of two things, collusion between Jetstar and the CP of my current airline. Or incompetent HR recruitment staff;

What ever happened to the investigation between the collusion of C.P's and jetstar recruitment? all quite now!?

It is a complete farce, to have spent clost to $1600 to get that job (flights, interviews,hotels,tests,sim etc) and then have these cluster F:mad:'s in recruitment not answer your emails or return your calls. :ugh:

I now have a way better job, and on way more money than that place could ever offer, so it works out in the end, however, what a waste of time.

I know why it has a nickname "Crapstar".

good luck for those that never got the fudge around :ok:

[AviatoR21]

Well done mate, I wonder how your tune would sound if you didnt get this "better" job.

[Hugh Jarse]

Blueberry,
You should feel comforted that it cost JQ between 2 and 3k to interview you. So you owe them.

If you find a bill in the mail, tear it up mate.

[lil_blueberry]

It is possible they rank you in the hold file (I think mainline used that system) and they didn't need to sink as low as your number to fill the spots? Its not always first in into the hold file, first into the job

I highly doubt that. My opinion is they most likely just dropped my file behind a desk :-)
and the other is they did call my employer and they stopped it. Which has happened in the past.

It does not matter anymore, I was just shedding the light on it as I though it was a complete farce. :yuk:

[Barry Mundy]

Are any of the QLink drivers getting interviews at Jstar now that the former Jstar CP is now Cp at Jlink?

[Chimbu chuckles]

Lil Blueberry....sounds like, from Jetstar's perspective, 2 or 3k VERY well spent.:rolleyes: